Use of Inside Leg

[OceansAway]

Hello all,

I was hoping someone could clear something up for me. I have heard of some people using the inside leg for impulsion, however, also "inside leg to outside rein." What is confusing me is this-how does the horse differentiate between the rider using the inside leg to create impulsion or using the inside leg in order to move the horse into the outside rein? Or even during lateral movements, such as leg yielding. I might just be all confused, and if so, hopefully someone could straighten me out! Thanks!

[MelantheLLC]

That's a great question.

Talk to your instructor about it specifically.

Typically the location of the inside leg is what is supposed to tell the horse the difference.

However, there are a lot of horses who haven't yet read that particular book.

And a lot of riders who can't control their leg aids or even their neutral leg enough for the horse to figure out what is being asked even if they DID have a sufficient basis of training to tell a consistent difference.

Call me a cynic but it's time that more dressage riders focused on the fact that they almost never actually TRAIN their horse in the aids they want to use--they just repeat and repeat them, consistently or not, and then blame the horse for not responding.

So yeah, excellent question. Good for you!

[Elegante E]

It's a difference in how the leg is used. Timing and placements along with seat aides encourage the horse to move different body parts, esp the hind legs.

The inside leg can act like a pole and the horse bent around it. Or you use it to weight the stirrup at different times - weight it when the inside back leg is on the ground and that leg will stay on the ground longer (can also be done with the inside front leg to keep it on the ground longer). If you pulse the inside leg and weighting the outside seatbone when the horse's inside back leg is in the air that asks the leg to reach over (btw, some teach the leg at the girth while others move it slightly behind the girth).

[BaroquePony]

Generally the basic idea of using your leg is that you teach the horse to move away from your leg aid. Then you can control the movement by containing or releasing the energy of the horse with your hands.

If you use the inside leg to the outside rein you are asking your horse to bend away from your leg (technically). If you add a nuance to the inside leg the horse goes forward with the bend that you have asked for and if you add your outside leg behind the girth you can also add the bend of the haunches back to the inside (more nuance) as well as asking for more forward movement. You can bounce the horse between the aids by lightening or strengthening the various aids and opening or closing the individual rein aids.

If you ask with both legs and close the hands, the horse moves FORWARD into the halt (the hands are closed so they are containg the energy, the legs are on the horse so the horse is still moving forward). The halt is finished when you take your legs off of the horse.

That is overly simplified, but basically how it works.

[petitefilly]

Breaking this down to the Kindergarten Level. :)

Inside leg with the leg in a "press" is "look to the inside and listen to the bend".

Inside leg with a knee more turned in with calf on "come around my leg and bend".

Inside leg with a bounce-bounce (can be slight, can be harder, can be a blow if the horse is blowing you off) "forward". "Go NOW"

Adding all the nuances make for the concert. Coming around in a circle say you want more impulsion, you bounce bounce your leg with the knee pressed in more, say you want less bend let up on the knee and only have the calf on.

Think about separating your aids more. Think about what you REALLY want from your horse and then let him have the time to react to your aid. See how much you have to give to achieve you aim.

Basically you have to know what you want before you can decide how much leg and where to give it. The horse will react and you temper the aid accordingly.

Good luck!

[slc2]

Just in general, I know it sounds a little weird, but you'll find these things very confusing when you start out, and it will get more and more clear as time goes on. It's not something anyone understands all at once. At each level there are basic things to concentrate on, and as you do the next thing, it will make more sense. It's great fun to read very complex books and articles about the most advanced nuances of riding, but each thing becomes clear in due time.


I was hoping someone could clear something up for me. I have heard of some people using the inside leg for impulsion,

One doesn't use one leg aid alone for impulsion, not really. I don't know who told you that, but it's not correct...nnnn...not exactly.

There ARE movements for which people try to give a 'recipe', like: ''My outside leg keeps the haunches in line, and my inside leg provides the impulsion''.....it makes it easy for them to think about doing it, but it doesn't actually mean that one leg only produces impulsion.

Impulsion involves using the reins, seat and legs. To have impulsion the horse needs to be straight; using only one leg aid would not produce a straight horse.

The definition of 'impulsion' may not be clear. Many instructors and even fairly knowledgeable people use it incorrectly. For example, a horse playing in a field or with the reins loose, no matter how fast he goes, can't have 'impulsion'. There is also no 'impulsion' at the walk. Many people use the term to mean, 'going faster' or 'moving more energetically'.

Impulsion is 'contained energy'. The more advanced horse and rider, through first establishing sound basics of training, then slowly teaching the horse to be 'on the bit' (a term also often used incorrectly, to mean 'head down, chin in'), through 'recycling' the forward energy of the horse with half halts (a coordinated action of seat, leg and rein), creates 'contained energy'. The horse's hind legs bend more, taking more of his weight.

It's a little bit of a balancing act. If the rider uses too much rein, or too much leg, or if those foundation skills aren't put in place before hand, it doesn't work out well. But clearly, the horse needs to be straight, and that means using both legs.

Even more paradoxically, a horse can be 'straight' on a curve. He curves his body in the same curve as that circle, if you looked at him from above, he follows the circle line just like a train on tracks - he can be 'straight' on a circle, too.



however, also "inside leg to outside rein."

This isn't confusing to the horse. At the lowest levels, 'Inside leg to outside rein' helps people to remember to not overuse the inside rein, and to not leave the outside rein hanging down. One of the biggest mistakes people make in dressage is trying to do way too much with the inside rein, while the outside rein stays loose. Both reins should be taken up.

Reminding them to keep their inside leg active and maintain a feel of the outside rein, helps them to not try to turn and steer by bending the horse's neck too sharply, and it helps them to remember to keep the horse on the track with their inside leg, so he doesn't 'cut in'.

At higher levels, things get a little different. With the further trained horse, 'inside leg to outside rein' can get a little more emphasis. With a further trained horse and rider, the rider can drop his inside rein for a few strides, and a little encouragement from his inside leg will balance the horse, with an even further trained horse, the rider can actually drop the inside rein, and the horse won't stretch his neck out or put his head down - the encouragement from the rider's inside leg keeps the horse connected to the outside rein, and he 'stays up'.

No...actually...that doesn't progress to dropping both reins and chucking the bridle in the trash can, but as time goes on the more advanced dressage horse balances more and more himself, and the rider can use his reins more and more invisibly, with only small movements of his hands and fingers.


What is confusing me is this-how does the horse differentiate between the rider using the inside leg to create impulsion or using the inside leg in order to move the horse into the outside rein?

There is no difference in the leg aids and the horse understands it.


Or even during lateral movements, such as leg yielding.

Think about what the other aids are doing, and think of it altogether. There's no leaning, pushing or dropping of the hip or anything necessary to get the horse to leg yield. A leg yield is really the same thing as inside leg to outside rein. The rider can sit perfectly evenly in the saddle, a little more pressure on the inside leg encourages the horse to perform the leg yield.

The canter depart, leg yield and haunches in have different aids, so the horse wouldn't mistake the aids for the three.

All the aids, all the work - even all the lateral work, always uses the same basic aids to the same effects, and the effect of each sort of aid, is always the same basic thing.

Once you understand the aids for a circle, you understand all the aids. The same aids are used for haunches in and shoulder in. A little more outside leg for haunches in, a little more outside rein for shoulder in....it's like mixing hot and cold water.

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by slc2:

To have impulsion the horse needs to be straight

So are you saying that the horse has no impulsion of he is on the circle? :lol:

[slc2]

No, I didn't say that.

I specifically said that a horse can be 'straight on a curve' and what that means. All the hoofprints fall around the same curved line.

My point was that a horse can't be crooked, ie, with his hind legs not properly aligned to his front legs, and the line of travel, and use his hind legs well to create impulsion.

For the original poster, 'straight' is a tough term in dressage.

At the lower levels, a 'straight' horse is pretty easy to see. That's the simplest kind of 'crooked', such as when we see a horse cantering 'sideways', with his haunches five feet from the rail, and his shoulders two feet from the rail.

As the horse and riders go up the levels, 'straight' becomes a matter of inches or even fractions of inches, wanting to see all the horse's hooves landing in a very precise line, with the horse putting equal weight on each hoof. The slightest amount of shoulders and haunches not being in alignment causes the horse to lose impulsion.

[BaroquePony]

"Straight" in the dressage world means that the spine of the horse should be parallel to the track of the movement.

So, if the horse is on the circle, straight means that his spine is bent evenly (looking down from above) from poll to tail and that his hind hoof prints track up (more or less) into his front hoofprints, or at least into the track of the front prints.

Edit to ad: the smaller the circle the deeper the bend

[Trevelyan96]

So are you saying that the horse has no impulsion of he is on the circle? :lol:

One of the first things taught is how to keep your horse STRAIGHT on a circle by curving his spine. If you weren't in such a hurry to find fault with SLC, you would have rethought this one before posting.

[BaroquePony]

Trevelyan96, if you could comprehend the laughing icon, you would have understood that I was joking.

[Trevelyan96]

Sorry... BP... I guess I've gotten a little too sensitive to the poster bashing thing. I did see your 2nd post, so def owe you an apology. :o

[BaroquePony]

Apology accepted Trevelyan96. Thanks.

Anyway, I jokingly asked the question because it is a tricky concept and it helps anyone learning about it, the OP in this instance, if they can see it described in different ways. I did not think slc2 would be offended, but rather she would explain more about it.

[nhwr]

These ideas aren't separate or distinct. The point of the leg aid is for the horse to move away from it, period. That is the basis of inside leg to outside rein and additionally a component of impulsion, the first being a basic concept in training, the latter being part of a more advanced series. But the premise of the aid doesn't change at all, the horse moves off the leg into the diagonal rein. Impulsion is created when the horse moves energetically forward from the inside leg into the outside rein and responds to an aid that redirects the energy up to elevate the poll as well as back to the quarters.

The trained horse doesn't differentiate, it responds to the coordinated application of a series of aids. The inside legs is just part of that series.

[Bats79]

Inside leg isn't used for "impulsion" per se but rather to activate the inside hind leg.

In the simplest terms - if you ask the horse to "yield" the shoulder and barrel away from the inside leg you will have "give" with the outside hand a degree to allow the yield to happen.

If you don't allow the horse to yield to the outside and you also use your seat / outside leg then the horse must be allowed to go forward.

The horse wont find that confusing.

[slc2]

No, if you 'give' with the outside hand the horse becomes crooked and you defeat the purpose of the leg yield. Any instructor will tell you not to give your outside rein, that it has a very fundamental role in controlling the position of the horse and making clear to him what he's supposed to do.

The leg yield is a leg yield, not a 'rein yield'.

A ceding of the outside hand is one part of the aid for a circle, not a leg yield.

The leg yield, which is constantly misunderstood and overcomplicated, is a very basic, simple suppling exercise, and is very simply, 'yielding to the leg'. The rider does not twist, lean, weight one side or the other, do anything with his seat bones, does not dramatically bend the neck around, does not give the outside rein, or do ANYTHING other than very simply place his leg at the girth and the horse moves over.

The outside rein is often very, very under used, as a result the horse is crooked, not mostly parallel to the wall.

People make a leg yield far, far too complex and in trying to give 'different aids' for it 'so the horse knows to leg yield' break down the systematic teaching of the aids by a cohesive, classical system that makes sense, and cause themselves unlimited trouble later on.

Placing the leg far too back on the horse's body is another common mistake, and it sounds like that is what Ambrey is doing wrong, since the horse very, very reliably picks up a canter most times when she asks for leg yield.

This causes the horse to be utterly confused when haunches in, half pass, pirouettes and flying lead changes and canter departs come along later on. If people would just follow the system, they'd be fine. But they just don't believe the system.

The idea isn't to 'make the horse go sideways'. That's what people get so fixed on, that they will do anything just to get the horse to fall in one direction instead of leg yield - overbend, push his haunches aside with a leg placed far back....etc.

Actually, trev, I did take it as an insult, but did not respond to that. Laughing icons are very commonly used here with insults that are often later claimed to indicate 'a joke' or 'just having fun', then the person is then so cleverly accused of 'being too serious' and 'having no sense of humor', so I pay no attention to icons and consider them to indicate nothing, especially when the wording itself is insulting to start with.

:)

[merrygoround]

Actually, you never really use only one leg at a time. Sometimes the outside leg is also asking for forward, sometimes it is there guarding, other times it activates, and says"don't come over here".

When they say " keep the horse between your legs", yes, it means you stay on the horse :lol:. but also you keep him moving straight, even on a circle:lol:.

Now OP, are you completely confused?

[OceansAway]

Thanks to everyone who replied! I think I really needed to see my examples as different shades of a color rather than a completely different color. It doesn't help that I tend to get too far ahead of myself. I had read about "impulsion" from the inside leg in a magazine I believe. Totally makes sense that one never uses one leg alone for anything. Sometimes I think I read too much and boggle my mind which isn't ready for some of this stuff! While I have been riding for a long time, I recently just got my first horse and have devoted myself to dressage. I have a long way to go, so thanks for all the help!

[canyonoak]

Very good question.

Maybe if you think about it this way: rider is teaching a language to horse. Building blocks include--"this means move away from leg pressure"

and horse MOVES the leg. Moving= energy.

Rider adds other 'sentences' or aids to say 'keep moving away' or 'and also move forward' etc, so energy gets shaped.

So inside leg to outside rein is just part of a conversation that can be very simple or get more complex,depending on he other aids/sentences added on.