Nevermind...

[goodmorning]

Not worth it.

I just people would do right by their youngsters and teach them how to lead, or stand for the farrier. Or not breed a sub-par animal with a terrible mind, to another horse with an equally unpleasant demeanor.

[sid]

The baby isn'r "rotten", intact or not.

Babies are babies..and they can be quite volatile even with the best training/handling in an exciting situation.

I'm so sick of hearing this scenario and complaints from novices to horse babies -- whether it be the breeder, the owner or a passerby.

Poor baby.

[goodmorning]

I'm sorry you feel that way.

Yes, this horse is a product of his handler, but also his breeding (neither dam nor sire has a good, quiet mind). It was fun and games while he was a baby, and now he is 14hands. It is dangerous, and sad. His owner also lost her job because she has needed multiple surgeries from her incident with him, and was out of work for too long. So he may soon be for sale, and I don't know many who will buy a horse with poor conformation, suspect breeding, and no manners.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Boy, the colt gets scared of the car pulling in, reacts, gets more scared at the sudden move of the handler, and is labeled bad.

He is insecure. FIRST rule in basic horsemanship 101 is to ALWAYS lead the insecure, or more difficult baby in front, so they don't feel like they are getting left by their buddy. They will ALWAYS react much more strongly when following. Your body language looking at the "danger" also made him go into panic mode.

Bucking and throwing a leg is pretty much what horses do when they get loose.

[tbracer65]

Goodmorning, you are 100% correct....I don't understand where sid is coming from on her views...obviously hasn't dealt with many babies or got lucky with the few she has dealt with. If this owner doesn't get a grip on this situation soon -- it's only going to get worse....MUCH worse. This isn't a baby being a baby --- he's 9 months old -- not 2 months. By that age he should know some manners -- not rearing up & coming down on people. He should understand people are NOT playmates, but should respect them. Maybe this comes from my backround training babies for 4-H kids to show, I don't know, but this colt would get an awakening at my stable. Why isn't he gelded yet? Esp. if he's poorly put together with nothing in his bloodlines??? The gelding alone will help him tremendously with his attitude & will be a good start in the right direction....

[goodmorning]

OK glad I came to vent on the wrong day.

Nevermind.

Maybe I should point out that both the vet and farrier (large repro vet) have said that this colt should be gelded and needs to be taught to respect humans. He still throws himself on the floor while being trimmed, for even the prized farrier who has taught many foals to be shod.

I really don't want to go down the drama road, so I think I will just delete this. As always, there are many other things factoring into this rant and other behavior of this foal, his dam, his sire, and his owner. But I didn't want to get into it. :sigh:

[tbracer65]

Boy, the colt gets scared of the car pulling in, reacts, gets more scared at the sudden move of the handler, and is labeled bad.

He is insecure. FIRST rule in basic horsemanship 101 is to ALWAYS lead the insecure, or more difficult baby in front, so they don't feel like they are getting left by their buddy. They will ALWAYS react much more strongly when following. Your body language looking at the "danger" also made him go into panic mode.

Even if this colt is reacting & being a 'baby' when he spooks (i.e. when the car pulled in the driveway), he can be taught NOT to rear up & come down on top of people as his response to a spook...which he seems to have a habit of doing since he's already broke someone's arm having the same reaction.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Even if this colt is reacting & being a 'baby' when he spooks (i.e. when the car pulled in the driveway), he can be taught NOT to rear up & come down on top of people as his response to a spook...which he seems to have a habit of doing since he's already broke someone's arm having the same reaction.

HAHA, that is funny. You can't teach a baby not to react when they get scared. Sometimes they rear. You can't teach them not to do that, and if they do, don't get under them. Horsemanship 102

Just for your information, I think between Susan and I, we have probably raised more foals to adulthood than the number of times most others have seen young horses.

[sid]

Iv'e dealt with a multitude of babies...from foaling to old age. I've spent the better part of 20 years bringing up foals to maturity and I would call on those who know me and my horses I know whereof I speak.

What I'm saying is that the baby is not at fault. The training/handling is. Don't slam the baby. And don't expect at baby to be as easy as an OTTB adult horse.

[goodmorning]

Iv'e dealt with a multitude of babies...from foaling to old age. I've spent the better part of 20 years bringing up foals to maturity and I would call on those who know me and my horses I know whereof I speak.


I am aware of this and respect your opinion, but I respectfully disagree. Before I ventured into this breeding this I spent 5 years working and assisting at a large breeding operation, so I've led many foals. I know this is not nearly as long or extensive as you or Darlyn, but I didn't feel the need to bring it up. I just mentioned one of my geldings because he was a product of a bad environment and is wonderful now...I've delt with many excited youngsters, but usually by 9-10 months they more are aware of human space...again, this is just my experience.

There are other yearlings, in this same barn, with the same daily routine and treatment, and they are great. Sure, they have their baby moments, but they all lead very well, and behave for the farrier.

[Equilibrium]

I'm sorry, I'm going to have to be in the school of agreeing with OP. No one is advocating beating the horse, but he is getting away with nasty behavoir, insecure or not. If the car pulled in and he shot forward, fine fair enough. But no, he jumped on top of her. Well tried to jump on her, thankfully she got out of the way. And of course the teeth barred thing isn't really a sign of, oh poor baby. He seems to be coming in every day too which means he should know humans are ok and aren't scary.

When we first had foals, I wanted them to like me, yes sounds stupid, but I did. The other foals on the place, which weren't ours, always seemed scared of people and I didn't want that. I got lucky in that the 1st 2 foals seemed to be born with manners so I didn't raise little monsters. Then came my second warmblood who showed me rather quickly foals need boundries. She never had a mean bone in her body, just full of play and always on go. Was bringing her in with mom one day and the next thing I know, I'm going to the ground with 2 legs on my shoulders. That was the end of that crap from that day forward. No beating, just had to remind her she had to behave and she did in fact have boundries. I didn't want to take the confidence, the fun, and the go get out of her - I just wanted her to act responsible towards humans. And today as a just turned 3yo she still has the same personality but is a dote at the same time who knows when to play and when to be a lady. But if I hadn't nipped that behvoir in the bud early on, she'd be a handful with zip manners.

My biggest beef is people who can't just treat foals with respect and teach them life is ok with humans. And I actually don't advocate over handling either. It's just a fine line. This colt my be special and he very well might have wonderful ability, but to be his best I'm afraid he's going to have to learn to behave as well.

Terri

[Fairview Horse Center]

It sounds like he is very insecure. You can't force these guys or train them to grow up faster. Beating on them usually makes them trust less, not more, and become more of a problem. When you find one that is more reactive, more insecure, you just need to put them in situations that they can have success at being good, and eliminate situations that make them lose their slight bit of confidence that they begin to develop. It is the scared horse that hurts people.

Of course babies jump on you when they are scared. It is just like a little kid that tries to climb on mom's lap. One of my fillies jumped literally on my head when unloading from the van. Did I get mad at her? No, I said how stupid could I be not to have seen that as a possility and been clear. She jumped over the side of the ramp. Yes, she could have killed me, and it would have been totally my fault for a momentary lack of horsemanship.

Horses are horses, and babies (including yearling, 2 year olds, etc) are still babies, and will GRADUALLY learn that things are not scary, and to gradually develop more confidence when separated from their security - horse or human.

First, we have to teach them to trust us, and then we can begin to discipline and train. If you discipline too soon, before developing their trust, you just become a preditor, not a herd leader.

[Donella]

I dont know what the OP was about, so I can't really comment on specific horse.

However, I do agree that alot of breeders do not spend enough time with their youngsters, teaching them basics and manners as well. Half of them seem proud of themselves if they can catch their weanlings. I realize that this is hard for those who have alot of foals, but I don't think it is even close to ideal and it just makes everything harder and more stressful for the horse when it is older if these things are not done when babies.

It kinda bugs me when people have foals and then wait for the farrier to train them to pic of their feet, or they wait until inspection day to teach them to load ect. Why not practice this alot prior to? We can pick all of our foals feet up and touch a rasp to them at a few weeks old. So yeah, when the farrier comes for the first time..they are pretty darn good! It just doesn;t freak them out. Everything is a good experience you know?

I have had to be on the other end enough, young horses who are two and don't even tie yet or trailer ect. It is SO hard on that horse. Why can't people just spend the time?

[Donella]

I will add though that my foals learn pretty early (by around 7 months or so) that they need to respect my space. They can have a trantrum or be scared and jump ect, but they need to not do that on me. I would never discipline a foal for being scared or impatient ...this is normal for a youngster. But for the most part, they do not need to run me over. Running me over doesn't not give them confidence in me, nor does it establish me as leader. If a foal in a herd of mares and foals is impatient or scared and runs on top of another mare, she will give them shi*! ...and alot earlier than seven months. Yet these foals will definately look at said mares with respect and for leadership.

So I think you just need to be care as to WHAT you are disciplining.

[Equilibrium]

Donella, well said on all parts.

I was just venting the other morning in my own barn because we have 2yo's that have no basic concept of space and boundries. Also they just run over top of you. Not because they're scared, because they can and have done so from day one. Yet the 2yo's that we've bred or were bought as foals are quite different. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but it sure is a lot nice to have a horse that enjoys your company yet knows how to behave. And quite frankly, it didn't actually take that much work, time, or any abuse. And if a colt gets to thinking he really is all that, he can go out with 14yo big gelding Frank. He can put manners on them pretty quick without hurting them.

Terri

[sid]

Ah, yes. Nothing better than putting a cocky youngster in with a wise, old alpha mare. Those old gals make my job so much easier (wink!).

[JB]

HAHA, that is funny. You can't teach a baby not to react when they get scared. Sometimes they rear. You can't teach them not to do that, and if they do, don't get under them. Horsemanship 102


No, you cannot teach a horse not to get scared. But you CAN, and should, teach him what is an appropriate response to being scared. Everyone strives, or should, to do that. You might not be able to ever teach a horse to not be scared of dogs who suddenly come out of nowhere, barking, but you CAN teach him that when a human is attached, his reaction needs to be to turn and face the dog, not bolt or rear.

You can also ingrain into a horse that your space is YOUR space, not his to invade, no matter what. So even if his spook reaction is not exactly what you would desire, it should be out of your space.

And even then, sometimes manure happens, and people get hurt by the most well-mannered horses doing the stupidest things.

Too bad the OP deleted the original post - I HATE it when that happens, never mind that it's against rules :mad:

[NoDQhere]

No, you cannot teach a horse not to get scared. But you CAN, and should, teach him what is an appropriate response to being scared. Everyone strives, or should, to do that. You might not be able to ever teach a horse to not be scared of dogs who suddenly come out of nowhere, barking, but you CAN teach him that when a human is attached, his reaction needs to be to turn and face the dog, not bolt or rear.

You can also ingrain into a horse that your space is YOUR space, not his to invade, no matter what. So even if his spook reaction is not exactly what you would desire, it should be out of your space.

And even then, sometimes manure happens, and people get hurt by the most well-mannered horses doing the stupidest things.

Absolutely! You are just as hurt regardless of how your colt/filly/horse injured you. Accidentally or "on purpose" is irrelevant when you are hospitalized or worse.

On this farm, youngsters learn, in no uncertain terms, that "your" space is NEVER their space, NO MATTER WHAT. And we have many happy, people loving youngsters who trust but also know who the "boss" is.

I think horses and kids are a lot alike and both do best when they know and respect the boundaries.

[sid]

Absolutely. Space is the very first thing I teach a baby...that way, when something does frighten them they avoid bumping into me (provided there is enough space in the given situation to be able to avoid me).

For instance, I had a situation where 3 weanlings came flying out of the run-in shed when a branch came crashing down. I was standing in the gate opening and they MADE A POINT to avoid hitting me. One can never start too early confirming the space rule. Once that is established, the rest of the training becomes quite easy.

Alpha mares are particularly good about teaching "space" to the one who keeps testing, testing, testing (typically a colt!).

[Donella]

Yes, I also don't understand how a young horse learns to trust you if you are not the one who is the leader. If a young horse is allowed to walk over you or jump on top of you, then you are clearly not alpha. And if you are not alpha, they do not look to you for security or leadership and they therefor do not put alot of trust into you. They may very much be friendly with you, but that is very different from trust. Trust for horses is instilled via leadership.

Ever notice how the alpha mare in a herd has the most respect and is always looked to for security when something scares the herd? Alpha mare is the one who enforces the "get out of my space" and there is never a period of the others earning her trust before she lays down the law. The law is laid down from day one. Trust comes from that, from the security in the leadership that she offers the herd.

No horse respects or looks for comfort in a horse that is below it on the totem pole. So I think the same with humans. Trust comes from setting boundaries and of course, always being fair about it!

[ilikridn]

What, specifically, do you do to teach a youngster to respect your space? I've used a finger in the side, but sometimes that's not enough. It depends on the horse. Sometimes, I've kept a sweat scraper in my hand if I'm having trouble with a horse that's being too pushy. If they get too close, I wave it at them. And if that doesn't do the trick, then I poke them or smack them with it.

I have a warmblood filly who will be 2 in May... she is a precocious one! She is the first one up to you in the pasture and is sometimes a bit too bold. I've taught her to give to pressure so if she gets too close to me she gets a finger in her side and she moves over. But the finger in the side hasn't always been enough for her. She's been a pistol from day one and full of personality.

So... I'd like to hear the different training methods that you all use.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Yes, I also don't understand how a young horse learns to trust you if you are not the one who is the leader. If a young horse is allowed to walk over you or jump on top of you, then you are clearly not alpha. And if you are not alpha, they do not look to you for security or leadership and they therefor do not put alot of trust into you.

Babies trust their moms very much, and the moms let them jump all over them. I am not going to let a foal jump on me, but that happens because I don't let them play with me. If they drift towards me when they have been weaned, and are afraid, that is just to be expected because they look to me for protection. A herd of babies will bump into each other, and yes, even run into the herd leader when scared. The herd leaders are actually the ones that are most tolerant of babies in their space. It is the bottom of the pack horses that kick and bite the babies. I often have babies first in line at the gate for dinner, and none of the big guys will shoo them back. Herd leaders do not demand the same body space with babies that they do with older horses. They demand more as they grow up, but that does not happen in 9 months.

Learning to respect body space is a gradual process, and not something that they are labled horrible for if as a weanling, something scares them, and they rear, and the handler slips on the ice, falling under them. He reared while spooking at the car, and came down. It is unfortunate that the handler slipped, but not his fault. It is not about respecting body space, but about rearing. You can't teach a weanling not to rear if startled. That is something confidence & maturity will overcome.

Teaching about body space is when I use my elbow into their shoulder, but they can be worked to learn to watch your shoulders, and turn away or with you when you change your shoulder angle.

[TKR]

I don't know what applies to this particular young horse, but all traits carry genetic markers. Care, handling, environment, etc. play a role. However, I can say from my own experience with a young gelding brought to me to start, that there are occasional horses that absolutely will not respond to training in a positive way. The gelding I started had never been mishandled or improperly handled. He had been a tough cookie from the onset and was in good hands. I started him as a 2 year old and I never came off, went through all the groundwork, manners, ground driving, etc. He was pretty fearless just not interested and not very cooperative. With him, you started at the same place every day and since he was so young, the time frame to work was fairly narrow, so we always seemed to end at the same place, but there was very little progress. He just was not going to participate. His name should have been resistance -- he just wouldn't "connect" on any level. I kept him for several months and he would walk, trot, canter, trail ride, whatever, but he stayed stiff, kept his head in the air, you could use devices, (which is not my cup of tea), but they didn't resolve it or make a difference ultimately. He got to where he would try to run away with me even in draw reins as he got stronger when he came back for more training after the owner took him home and couldn't ride him. He was also dangerous on the ground -- if you were brushing him and he didn't like something he'd react and try to kick or bite, giving injections was taking your life in your hands and if you were trying to catch him he would position himself to kick you. It was his attitude and total lack of work ethic or character and also his temperment -- which everyone agrees (I think) is inheritable. I advised the client to sell him because he would never be appropriate for her. I had him for almost a year total -- he just did not progress past a point. She sent him to several other trainers -- all good horse people and fair -- even our vet thought he was mental. He was finally put down. So, I don't know what applies to the colt you have, but I also know a very good horsewoman and trainer who was mauled by an Arabian stallion after he dumped her and kept coming back to stomp on her. They are out there -- thankfully they are few and far between. However, I don't think anyone who breeds or understands why we have registries and traceable bloodlines can say that one trait is inherited and another is not. I have been breeding and training and starting babies for over 30 years, I've never encountered another one like him. JMHO
PennyG

[goodmorning]

Too bad the OP deleted the original post - I HATE it when that happens, never mind that it's against rules :mad:

I am sorry JB - I almost wish I didn't at this point, because a lot of people who read the OP seemed to understand where I was coming from, and I thank you for the PM's. It was a late night rant after having a young colt rear up on top of me. I do not think I am able to completely portray the whole situation, which is part of the reason I deleted the post. There are many factors coming into play in this situation, and this one incident happened to compound my feelings with regards to this colt...just one part of the sum that put me over the top ;) I respect people's opinions, but at some point its just not worth defending youself...I appreciate the experienced and inexperienced breeders alike on this board, and try to stay away from stirring the pot - it's just not my cup of tea.

I do feel for this colt, as his behavior is not going to be corrected by his current owners, and having already broken his owners arm, you think she would have spent the time or paid someone to teach him to lead properly...but no...and with his bloodlines consisting of difficult horses, he needed to be taught properly from the beginning. His owner is doing him no favors, and who knows where he will end up in life because of this bad start. When he is a known biter, why would you continue hand feeding him treats?!?! Its that typcial 'I love Poopsie even when he bites, rears, and charges into people...he's a good boy' attitude that puts me right over the top.

Like I said earlier, the other yearlings on the farm are good solid citizens and understand what people space is...sure, accidents always happen, but this colt has a solid history of being fresh & improper handling...Nature & nurture are not on this ones side...

[Donella]

Fairview,
This has not been the case with our mares. Our alpha mare is very...direct with the foals (almost to the point where it worries me). Not so much when they are baby babies, but around weaning time. They definately do not jump oh that mare. Of course, the foals definately jump and run into their own mommas, but I have not found this to be the case with other mares in the herd.

As horses get older, this is even more obvious. If you put a new 2 yr old in with a group of horses, there is no "trust building" stage. Things get sorted out with physical gesturing and often flying legs. Horses in the wild establish dominance by moving others out of their space, sometimes this requires physical efforts, sometimes just a headshake or look. I have never seen an alpha, herd leader tolerate pushy or agressive behavior from other members of the herd on a regular basis.

Anyways, I agree with you that punishing insecurity or fear is definately wrong and yes, all foals will show this at some time. This never makes them bad...not sure if that is what the OP was saying?

[JB]

What, specifically, do you do to teach a youngster to respect your space? I've used a finger in the side, but sometimes that's not enough. It depends on the horse. Sometimes, I've kept a sweat scraper in my hand if I'm having trouble with a horse that's being too pushy. If they get too close, I wave it at them. And if that doesn't do the trick, then I poke them or smack them with it.

I have a warmblood filly who will be 2 in May... she is a precocious one! She is the first one up to you in the pasture and is sometimes a bit too bold. I've taught her to give to pressure so if she gets too close to me she gets a finger in her side and she moves over. But the finger in the side hasn't always been enough for her. She's been a pistol from day one and full of personality.

So... I'd like to hear the different training methods that you all use.
First you have to teach them to move from pressure, which you are doing with your finger and escalating if that isn't working. But sometimes, in the process of teaching all that, before it's learned, the horse does end up doing one of two things:
- barging into your space like you aren't even there, because there's something interesting to look at "over there"
- becoming spooked by something and running into/over you
Assuming you are not on the ground ;) then you make the horse think that was a REALLY bad idea, and that you could kill him if you wanted to. This means getting big and loud and screaming in his fact and doing jumping jacks and waving whatever is in your hand. That horse needs to have the fear of God look in his eyes, and he needs to be backpedalling as fast as those big feet will take him. THAT is how you know he got the message, that you were effective.

Alpha horses are those whose whereabouts are always known to the other horses in the herd. They would not dream of running into the alpha horse :eek: If they do, the alpha goes after him with teeth bared and ears pinned.

In the situations where you are calmly teaching the horse about space, things can be a little more controlled. Some horses really want to be *right there* and come right into you, snuffling pockets, hair, etc. They are NOT allowed to make that decision themselves. If they do, then you get big and loud and back them off. When they are looking at you politely, ears perked, you can invite them in - that is just as important as keeping them out. This is not a fear thing, this is a respect thing - respect you enough to stay out of your bubble if not invited, respect you enough to trust you when you call them in.

You also actively work at drawing him in and putting him back out. Regardless of what people think of the program in general, the people specifically, the Yo-yo game of Parelli-land is VERY useful for this. It's all about sending away and drawing in. In the sending part, you get to teach the horse to back off with light movement, even just a look, and you have the tools with you to escalate things if he's being a ding-dong about it.

[Fairview Horse Center]

There is a huge difference between teaching a mature horse about body space, and a foal/weanling. I have had a large herd of over 25 horses, and "changing of the guard" for over 35 years. I definitely have spent a lot of my time studying alfa horses. True herd leaders do cut the babies a good deal of slack.

Herd leaders that are in the #1 position by default are a different cup of tea. Those are the bully guys, very demonstrative. A real herd leader teaches with a lot of patience.

Mares that kick and bite their babies for baby behavior, I consider abusive moms. Babies are allowed to jump on their moms.

When babies are scared, they react, and it takes some maturity for them to think before, or while they react.

[sid]

That's true...most mom's do allow that (esp. w/the boys). Though I had one very special mare who wouldn't tolerate it, yet corrected her foal with incredible skill.

When I have a real roughneck, I prefer to then put mom and baby in with the alpha maer (true leader...non-abusive). Baby learns quite quickly what is tolerable and what is not regarding "space".

I've been so lucky to have two such older mares that I used for this purpose. In fact, I also used them as weaning partners for the foal. Once the dam is gone, the behavior just gets better and better.

Of course, I work with babies from the getgo, but having these old "masters" are real diamonds in the rough when raising singleton babies.

[ilikridn]

Thanks, JB... that's exactly what I was looking for.

And, Fairview and sid... I should have been more clear. I don't smack babies with the sweat scraper. I'm talking about grown horses that start to get a bit too pushy and the finger poke and loud voice just isn't doing the trick.

With the 2-yr-old I mentioned earlier I have to get a bit more creative. She always wants to be in the middle of whatever is going on. If I'm trying to do something with another horse in the pasture, like catch, halter and lead out... she's right there. We have big pecan trees in our pasture that are constantly dropping limbs. A lot of times I'll just pick up a dropped limb and wave it around and that does the trick.

[Summit Springs Farm]

I did not see the OP, but I think she was just saying that from her perspective, she would like people who own young ones to teach them manors.
The info on this thread by all of you is great for everyone who has young one to remember and incorporate into their thinking.

I have a yearling and she is super great. She does all the tricks, leads, wash stall, farrier, etc. but I handled her from the start and regularly, she even went to her first horse show last week and was first in her class and reserve best young horse.:)

[sid]

ili -- OTOH, if given the choice I'd rather have a friendly foal, than one which is standoffish.

By using your body language (becoming more rigid and even with a low, menacing voice) -- and an aid if you need to, like your "branch", though a rope might be better -- you can teach a little people lovers (or even the obnoxious ones) to back away and WAIT. After awhile, they'll just be able to tell by your rigid body and growl to WAIT. But always be sure to ask them to "come back in"... but to stop at the point you want them to. Then wait. Then YOU approach and give a scratch. Always important to reward that good behavior and for listening. Remember, little babies have the attention span of a knat. I'm convinced that yearlings - particulary boys -- have A.D.D. at times (grin). Short and sweet, as many times a day as you can, speeds this "space" and "wait" process along.

I almost always have a lead rope hanging around my neck for the ocassions when I want to move a horse away and need an aid. Comes in handy later in life when you're working in hand or teaching to lunge as they remember to "move off" the rope/lead when asked.

WAITING is the hardest thing for all young creatures...and of course, stallions (wink!).

BTW, never "back up" from a young horse that approaches (or any horse for that matter). They must back away from you. When you back off, that is a signal they they are dominant. Hopes this helps.

[3Dogs]

I think the OP was addressing not only teaching manors but breeding responsibly. I think. The genetics of human behaviour indicates that much is in our genes - the nuture can minimize the "bad" and encourage the "good" but the genes have laid down the blueprint. So if I get this post right, the first and primary issue was that the breeding of offspring from this particular mare - maybe not such a good idea? ?? yes well, we have a "if it has a uterus, it can breed" mentality in many quarters - and if it is a "pretty mare" it should breed! Go look at the $30,000 broodmare thread - I believe if you want GREAT horses, the broodmare should be the most expensive horse on your farm!