Hey, STALLION OWNERS...whassup with that in the breeding clauses?

[GGStables]

I'll try to write this without too much information to make this either an epistle or inflammatory - which is certainly not the intention.

I'm wondering about a certain clause in breeding contracts and also (all things being equal) why a SO would refuse to negotiate on a particular point where another SO would have no trouble with it. For example:

Situation 1:
Stallion is older, lives in a hot climate and his semen is sensitive to heat. This is not disclosed to mare owner at time of semen purchase. After many, MANY breeding dollars spent in one season on multiple efforts to get a breeding sound, fertile mare A in foal and eventually also trying with breeding sound, fertile and proven mare B with no results, the question to the stallion owner is whether the breeding can be transfered to another stallion they have at stud. Whatever the $ difference, it will be lost to me or paid by me.
Answer: No!

Situation 2:
Mare is inseminated under a LFG clause. Owner wants to sell mare but SO will not honour the LFG with the new owner. This seems an inconsistent thing from SO to SO.

Understanding that as a stallion owner you can do what you want and all that, but can someone explain to me whassup with that? It seems terribly unfair...

[Jesse'sMom]

dont know your situation with your WB SO, but just FYI all TBs when there is a transfer of ownership, all LFG go away.
mares in foal are bought as is in foal..

[dressagetraks]

I'm not an SO, but regarding the second situation, I read an extensive explanation in a farm diary by a multiple SO (Country Life Diary by Josh Pons, three years in a TB nursery, great look inside the business and well written :yes:). He said that basically, the SO has dealt with the first MO, had an opportunity to assess their horse care, made sure they were educated about mare care, etc. The SO had no opportunity to assess the care that subsequent MO might give, which could impact the mare losing the foal. So LFG only applies to the first MO whose care the SO actually knew and could assess from the mare's condition at the time of breeding (live cover, of course, with TBs). Also, auctions themselves, a big place for TBs to change hands, are stressful on a mare in foal and could contribute to a foal loss.

[ASBJumper]

Because they can do what they please. Some SOs are more lenient, some are more strict and cautious. There's nothing wrong with either, and you can choose to do business with whomever you please, nobody is forcing those "stricter clauses" down anyone's throat.

I don't go around whining about M-W-F only collection clauses that certain SO's have. I think that's scary, personally, but it's their right, their business, and they have their reasons!

If you don't think certain SOs contract clauses are "fair", then I would ask you this:

Let's say you go into a store that sells high-end shoes... for example, Jimmy Choo shoes... you ask for the price on a nice pair of red pumps. Salesman says "$500". Would you tell him that's "unfair" because there's a nice pair of red pumps at Christian Louboutin being advertised for $300??! Of course not!!! They can charge whatever the heck they want! :p
And if there's a "10-day return policy" on them, are you going to whine and complain because Christian Louboutin offers a 30-day return policy? Of course not! ;)

Am I way off base here?? Since when do people question someone else's business contract (unless there's major ethical issues involved or something)? If you don't like it, don't sign it! :confused: :confused: :confused:

[tri]

And if they/we/you/them don't like it, it is their right to come on a public BB and say they don't like it....just like I don't like booking fees and this fee and that fee and another fee, and a "hey I feel like charging more just for the f#%^ of it" fee...and mare owners can make a big stink about it and get other mare owners not to put up with crap and if stallion owners don't like it they can stick the semen where the sun don't shine and, hey! I won't even charge THEM a fee for that.

[sixpoundfarm]

And if they/we/you/them don't like it, it is their right to come on a public BB and say they don't like it....just like I don't like booking fees and this fee and that fee and another fee,

Probably one of the few times I will agree with Tri.
I think it is our right, as consumers of a product or service to question charges, fees etc.
Asking for justification or consideration on pricing is how business is done.


Because they can do what they please. Some SOs are more lenient, some are more strict and cautious. There's nothing wrong with either, and you can choose to do business with whomever you please, nobody is forcing those "stricter clauses" down anyone's throat.

Am I way off base here?? Since when do people question someone else's business contract (unless there's major ethical issues involved or something)? If you don't like it, don't sign it!


As you stated, choosing to do business with whom you please is everyone's right.
If you are happy to take things at face value, that is fine. But, don't expect that everyone else should share your opinion. People negotiate and question pricing all the time. It's how business gets done.

[ASBJumper]

Probably one of the few times I will agree with Tri.
I think it is our right, as consumers of a product or service to question charges, fees etc.
Asking for justification or consideration on pricing is how business is done.




People negotiate and question pricing all the time. It's how business gets done.

They negotiate and question, but with the concerned party - the SO. But I disagree, last time I checked, MOST business is done in a very standard fashion - something has a price, and if you want it, you pay it. If not, then you don't buy it.

Comes back to my analogy question - how many times have you gone into a high end store and demanded that saleslady "justify" the pricetag to you? What about the store's return policy? The type of bag your purchase comes in? Do you question all these things? Ask "why"?

Perhaps I would be a bit less irked by the OP's question if she had simply stuck to asking SO's what their motives would be for making such a decision (innocent question), but it's the "I think it's so unfair!!" addition that's unnecessary.

Anyways, I look forward to hearing actual SO's weigh in on this, and hear their experiences re:contracts, etc. :)

[tri]

Actually, that is a very narrow, only-in-the-USA mindset you have there. In many countries, it would be considered very very rude not to question the price and rude not to try and negotiate.

And, I ask for better pricing at just about any purchase over $20 at just about any store I shop at. Clark Howard, just the other day, on his radio show said that if you are shopping at any of the big retail clothing stores negotiate, negotiate, negotiate and most are giving unlisted discounts.

Even before the economy started going downhill, I could go in Home Depot and get a unlisted discount if I was buying in big enough bulk. If you aren't doing it, you are missing out on a lot of savings.

So, I guess you are a car dealer's dream if you are paying list!

[ASBJumper]

How many countries have you lived in, tri? Cuz I'm a diplomat's daughter, and I've lived all over the world, not just "visited". What you describe mostly happens in market/village settings, not in stores where things have actual pricetags. ;) And you also don't get the luxury of returning things when you get swindled, or getting a binding contract for what you're purchasing. Apples and oranges, dear.

And actually, no, I don't try to negotiate with car dealers - they quote me a price, I tell them I can't afford that, and they lower their price until I'm I comfortable with it. :D If they don't lower their price, I go elsewhere, but I certainly don't go around badmouthing them because they wouldn't bow down to me and offer me deals, jeez.

And besides, I'm not saying people should NEVER ask for a deal or a discount, I'm saying don't get your knickers in a knot if the answer is NO.

[ThirdCharm]

dont know your situation with your WB SO, but just FYI all TBs when there is a transfer of ownership, all LFG go away.
mares in foal are bought as is in foal..


Umm, unless the JC has a rule about this that I'm not aware of, this is not true. That might be the custom in race breeding, or whatever, but I at least stand a JC stallion and my LFG is transferable provided the conditions of the LFG are met (biopsies, cultures, vaccinations, review of nutrition and caregiving conditions, veterinary statements, etc., as necessary in case I suspect poor care or negligence).

Jennifer

[GGStables]

Ah, but see, in either case there was no request by the mare owners for any discount, hand-out or freebie, nor to pay the same fees that another stallion owner might charge. Rather, these were simply situations where mare owners were trying to get what they paid for, no more, no less. I've also addressed the point already that SO can do what they please, as well as an "all things being equal" consideration so really, the shoe shopping analogy while entertaining, is irrelevant.

In general terms a sale is the trade of things of equal perceived value. Thus, it IS unfair to expect to be paid for something without producing a (reasonable) good, much less dictating what someone else may or may not do with their own possession, especially since the contribution made - in this instance, the stallion's semen- is not specifically affected by that action.

The question here, is this: Why would some stallion owners refuse to budge on LFG and, using a different stallion for multiple failed breedings when the same things aren't an issue with others? Is there something that makes it an issue?

One would think in this day and age when semen is so readily available, and where every stallion owner swears blind their stallions are the current/next best thing going, that it's truly the exceptional customer service that will separate them from the masses.

Maybe that's just me...

[misita]

Your right. Customer service is what seperates them from the masses. Just look at Edgar. He has spectacular service. When your breeding to one of his stallions, he makes you feel important.

[Springlake1]

Your right. Customer service is what seperates them from the masses. Just look at Edgar. He has spectacular service. When your breeding to one of his stallions, he makes you feel important.

Boy I couldnt agree more with you Misita! we have dealt with Edgar for years and years, and all other things being equal, choose his farm/stallions first.
Why? Customer service. Actually we consider him a role model for other SO, and if a SO comes close, we will be back!

[TKR]

When I was actively standing and promoting my stallions, I always felt that it was in everyone's best interest to try to education any mare owners who were interested in breeding to one of mine. Spending time with a prospective client is important to assess their needs and expectations and explain what is required from both parties and why. I would not budge on requiring a clean culture/cytology unless the mare had a clean foaling and was being bred back right away. I also didn't budge on proof of vaccinations (including Strangles) and a Coggins and removing hind shoes -- but I was strictly doing live cover and the mares had to physically be on my farm, so that was my call for any incoming horse.

As far as the live foal, my feeling as a stallion owner who wanted to promote my boys was to accomplish having healthy foals hit the ground and thrive. So, I was very flexible on re-breeding if the foal was lost even as a weanling or later, if the owner provided the care and attention anyone should. I usually printed out a lengthy information sheet for first time breeders (or others that just didn't seem to know much) that explained what they should do for the mare before being bred, after she was in foal, for foaling and after foaling care and what to expect. Many called for information and I think it's important to help out in that respect.

I think stallion owners who love and believe in their stallions and want to prove them through their produce go to extreme lengths to do all that is humanly possible to provide a client with a healthy foal, but everyone should do their part. Stallion service contracts should be written so that they are easily understood and perhaps all the "fine print" should be gone over and explained. There is usually good reasons for the stipulations in a contract and the contract is to set forth the terms so there is no misunderstandings or "I thought you said ....". Considering the tough competition for mares, I believe most stallion owners are doing all they can to provide the best service possible. I never charged a booking fee and of course there wasn't any shipping or collection fees since I didn't go that route with live cover. I always called a mare owner if anything extra came up before going forward unless it was an emergency. I can't speak for other stallion owners, but the ones I've worked with have all been terrific and go through every extra step necessary and were very fair. If one cares to negotiate on a stud fee, etc., they should pick up the phone and contact the stallion owner and see if they can reach an agreement. JMHO
PennyG

[STF]

Situation 1:
Stallion is older, lives in a hot climate and his semen is sensitive to heat. This is not disclosed to mare owner at time of semen purchase. After many, MANY breeding dollars spent in one season on multiple efforts to get a breeding sound, fertile mare A in foal and eventually also trying with breeding sound, fertile and proven mare B with no results, the question to the stallion owner is whether the breeding can be transfered to another stallion they have at stud. Whatever the $ difference, it will be lost to me or paid by me.
Answer: No!



If the stallion should be honest about the quality of semen. Always good to check with other people that have used that stallion and confirm stallion semen quality before using.

Situation 2:
Mare is inseminated under a LFG clause. Owner wants to sell mare but SO will not honour the LFG with the new owner. This seems an inconsistent thing from SO to SO.


I would, as a SO, let the new owner transfer the LFG. I would assume they are buying the mare because they want the foal and I like people to be happy.

[Galileo1998]

Your right. Customer service is what seperates them from the masses. Just look at Edgar. He has spectacular service. When your breeding to one of his stallions, he makes you feel important.

And that's one of the reasons I keep on going back to him. :yes: The other is his spectacular stallions that offer excellent value for money. I was lucky enough to get to go and visit Edgar's farm back in 2007 and he was an amazingly charming host. Took us around to visit all the stallions and sent me into Pablo's stall to feed him carrots. :D

[GGStables]

In my experience and what I've heard of from fellow mare owners, the LFG issue is troublesome - a hit and miss thing, as I said. I just find it so odd and without adequate explanation it certainly seems a somewhat redundant rule with no reason d’être and which nobody's thought about sufficiently to remove or firmly support. IMHO

In the first scenario, would you fellow COTHers feel the need to let others know specifics about your experience or just leave the thing alone and hope no-one else gets stung the same way?

[sixpoundfarm]

I have experienced scenario A, but with out another stallion to transfer too. I just gave up after two seasons with two different mares.

[GGStables]

See Tracy, there you go! As a fellow mare owner, and one who counts pennies because let's face it: breeding is not pocket change; I'd absolutely want to know about your situation, and that stallion owner. Yes, there are two sides to any story and everyone makes their own decision in the end but as the saying goes: Forewarned is forearmed. In the same way we may hear good things about stallion owners as THE SERVICE/GOODS PROVIDERS in the marketplace, may we not also be made aware of the "bad businesses" out there?

In the first situation I very, very, VERY definately would NOT have forked over nearly $2000 alone for heat sensitive semen from an older, non-competitive stallion who ironically, lives in the hottest area in the US!

Not just that, but as was also implied in earlier posts, the additional fees they insisted upon pretty much sunk the deal. Despite the situation they still insisted on booking fees of $300 to try for the LFG the following year. I too, gave up and quietly told them where to shove it. While I understand that some stallions compete, collections usually cost something for the SO too, and no one is entitled to hand-outs and so forth...I mean, COME ON...! :mad:

[ponygirl]

How many countries have you lived in, tri? Cuz I'm a diplomat's daughter, and I've lived all over the world, not just "visited". What you describe mostly happens in market/village settings, not in stores where things have actual pricetags. ;) And you also don't get the luxury of returning things when you get swindled, or getting a binding contract for what you're purchasing. Apples and oranges, dear.


I just thought I'd chime in here as what Tri has described does indeed happen in large dept stores, etc, etc. Dateline did a piece on this very thing. I forget the woman's name but she's famous for bargain shopping. She went into large dept stores, jewelry stores, etc, etc showing folks how you absolutely can negotiate prices. It was fascinating b/c I had no idea! :)


GGStables- yes, I'd want to know about heat sensitive semen since I live in a very hot area. I'd not want others to fork out $$$ and have nothing to show for it.

[Daventry]

I just thought I'd chime in here as what Tri has described does indeed happen in large dept stores, etc, etc. Dateline did a piece on this very thing. I forget the woman's name but she's famous for bargain shopping. She went into large dept stores, jewelry stores, etc, etc showing folks how you absolutely can negotiate prices. It was fascinating b/c I had no idea! :)

Yes, I saw that TV program too. While I'm a very forward person and not afraid to speak my mind, I don't think I could bring myself to do that! I definitely could for certain big ticket items like a car or trailer, which seems to be the norm to haggle, but I don't think I could do it on everyday items. That's just me.


GGStables- yes, I'd want to know about heat sensitive semen since I live in a very hot area. I'd not want others to fork out $$$ and have nothing to show for it.

Which is why, and Kathy will tell you the same thing, you need to make sure you're getting the semen sent in an Equitainer from the warmer States. Ideally, it should be sent in an Equitainer all of the time, but many Mare Owners want the convenience and less $$ of the disposable containers. Not all stallions ship well in the disposables, warm temperatures or not, but I'm betting there are Stallion Owners out there who won't tell their Mare Owners that! We have an older (19 year old), retired from competition stallion, who's semen is so good I'm betting it would even ship well in a taped up little Dixie cup (and I know of other stallions that are the same), but not all stallions are blessed with above par semen. Make sure you do your research...and READ your contract!

[silvia]

Just a small question on fees:

We charge mare care per month for feed
any vet fees +5% and a $10 handling fee
farrier a $10 handling fee
a rebreeding fee of $100 for a mare removed before a positive preg test

Is this about right or does it seem too much to ask on top of a service fee?

[Dinah-do]

The Jockey Club LFG is not a rule but is standard practise. lMy own little farm is private now but this thread brings back memories of mare owners wanting deals for everything under the sun. So glad to not see their cheap little faces again. Funny thing is - the more they whined the worst care they took of their mare. They had every reason why they left their cheque book at home and could not pay up. I remember well fabulous mare owners that paid bills promptly and took great care of their animals. I would always give them some kind of perk, I learned the hard way to walk away from the ones with their hand out all the time.

[Zlotych]

The Jockey Club LFG is not a rule but is standard practise. lMy own little farm is private now but this thread brings back memories of mare owners wanting deals for everything under the sun. So glad to not see their cheap little faces again. Funny thing is - the more they whined the worst care they took of their mare. They had every reason why they left their cheque book at home and could not pay up. I remember well fabulous mare owners that paid bills promptly and took great care of their animals. I would always give them some kind of perk, I learned the hard way to walk away from the ones with their hand out all the time.

Wow, great attitude.
So, because you didn't like the owners, you took it out on the animals that were depending on you to care for them???
Great business practice. :mad:

[Dinah-do]

I am typing without my contacts - what is your problem? THEY took care of THEIR mare. Not me. I took great pride in mare care even when the mare came looking poor. This world is not a gypsy market place. Do I have a bad attitude? Not any more. What would you do if a mare owner wanted a deal and then presented you with a mare covered in rain rot and 300 lbs underweight?

[ASBJumper]

Dinah-do - As a mare owner, I completely understand where you're coming from. :no:

It seems there are still many, many people who believe in the old adage "the customer is always right". I don't. I have never worked in retail, it scares me. Because the customer is most certainly NOT always right, in fact, the customer is sometimes a dishonest jerk.

Thank god I work in an office environment where my boss protects her own. We try to accommodate clients as best we can, but some are never pleased and some never think we're doing enough and some think we should work miracles to provide the level of service they want and *when* they want it. It simply doesn't work that way.

There will always be stallion owners out there who offer a better deal than the next SO - that's wonderful, good for them. But does that mean every SO should have the exact same fee, the exact same contract, the exact same discounts, offers, deals, clauses, etc etc etc? Really, truly?

And if certain SOs choose not to lower their prices or wheel and deal, does that automatically make them bad/dishonest people? Or just "not competitive"?

I've heard admirable stories of SOs getting last-minute calls for semen and them hopping in the car and driving for hours, or across state/country borders, to get the semen
delievered on time. That's amazing - but I would never, EVER expect that from an SO, nor would I get pissy and trash them if they didn't go that extra mile. They have families, they have chores, their own expenses, they have more important priorities. I *get* that. Nobody forced me to breed my mare, I made a choice - and I know the rules of the game (which are usually spelled out in the contract), and I play by those rules. Always. Once in a while I may ask for something extra, and if I get it, great! If the SO says "sorry, I can't", then that's ok too.

To me this is a reflection of today's society as a whole - everyone wants something for less, they want it faster, better, cheaper... Like my SO (significant other, lol) who is baffled that I continue to purchase DVD's when he can download everything for free - yes, I usually buy them in the sale bins, sometimes "previously viewed", or at Walmart, but I still prefer to buy them. If it's a movie I love, yes I will pay for it. I have no problems with that.

Anyways, I don't expect or want people to agree with me, this is just MHO. ;)

[Silver Sport Horses]

Not just that, but as was also implied in earlier posts, the additional fees they insisted upon pretty much sunk the deal. Despite the situation they still insisted on booking fees of $300 to try for the LFG the following year. I too, gave up and quietly told them where to shove it. While I understand that some stallions compete, collections usually cost something for the SO too, and no one is entitled to hand-outs and so forth...I mean, COME ON...! :mad:

I have had this happen to me. It's very frsutrating! You spend a good chuck of change on the stud fee, bred the mare 3 times, got a pregnancy and at 90 days she slipped the foal. :( SO was willing to let me change mares but I still found it frustrating that I had to pay for another $300 booking fee when I was already out $3000+. I also gave up and took the loss. Just wasn't worth it to work with the SO again. (Should also say we had an inital incident where the breeding farm accidentally sent a dry shipper back to them instead of their equitaner.) It was a big fight between the SO and the breeding farm with me in the middle over paying the late charges. It was an accident!!!

[tri]

ASBjumper, you couldn't have lived in that many places if the only location was a village where haggling was expected. Yes, I've lived all over the world including Cairo where if you didn't challenge the price, the shop owner would turn around and walk away from you insulted, often times being called a nasty 'bad american' name. Cairo is hardly a village being, what? the ninth largest city in the world.

[ASBJumper]

tri - yes, I've heard lovely stories of Cairo, like Pinto WB's friend being egged in the street because she was wearing a tank top in blazing hot weather. :rolleyes: So I won't comment on their customs or what they "expect"....

I did live elsewhere in the Middle East, in Amman - and stuff had prices, and you paid them. When bills came in restaurants, the bill got paid and tip was given. Nobody walked away insulted. :lol:

Sorry you had such rude experiences in Cairo. You're not the only one... :no:

[Amoroso]

Just a small question on fees:

We charge mare care per month for feed
any vet fees +5% and a $10 handling fee
farrier a $10 handling fee
a rebreeding fee of $100 for a mare removed before a positive preg test

Is this about right or does it seem too much to ask on top of a service fee?

Here is my opinion as a MO and breeder:

- First, I'm not sure what you mean by 5% on top of vet fees, do you mean for the actual breeding or if the vet needs to be called to see the horse while in your care?

- I get tired sometimes of the extra fees here and there, but at the end of the day it doesn't influence my stallion choices. One thing that does bother me is SO that doesn't include first collection in the stud fee? I don't understand that one....I guess it is just a way to advertise their stud fee for lower than it really is. Obviously, one has to pay to get the collection , it is an automatic expense, that should be advertised and included in the stud fee.

[selah]

If semen quality is a concern, I'll bet a relatively inexpensive microscope & Kathy & Jos' breeding short-course would tell the tale (tail)...before subfertile semen gets put in the mare...
:yes:

[Silver Sport Horses]

One thing that does bother me is SO that doesn't include first collection in the stud fee? I don't understand that one....I guess it is just a way to advertise their stud fee for lower than it really is. Obviously, one has to pay to get the collection , it is an automatic expense, that should be advertised and included in the stud fee.


I have to have my stud collected at a collection facitily. I am never sure if they are going to increase their prices or ??? until usually the end of the year. I would rather have the mare owner pay them the exact amount then to charge more to be sure I am not out any extra.

What I don't get is the chute fee? Or an extra fee for time and traveling to the collection facility. I think that should be included into your stud fee.

[Daventry]

One thing that does bother me is SO that doesn't include first collection in the stud fee? I don't understand that one....I guess it is just a way to advertise their stud fee for lower than it really is. Obviously, one has to pay to get the collection , it is an automatic expense, that should be advertised and included in the stud fee.

As both a Stallion Owner and Mare Owner, remember that the collection fee is also an automatic expense for the Stallion Owner too! Many, many stallion owners do not have the expertise or equipment to collect at home, so must rely on a veterinarian for collecting. I know the vets in our area, which also includes you, charge anywhere from $285-$350 per collection. There is also an additional expense for either getting the veterinarian to come out, or to load up and trailer the stallion to the clinic. I suppose it's one thing to include the collection fee in, for example, a $2,500 stud fee. It's another scenario when the stud fee is only $500 - which is the stud fee for one of ours.

When we first started out, we trailered an hour and a half to the nearest vet to have our guy collected, we now have a lab at home and collect ourselves. We now charge $200 per collection. It doesn't mean it's free money to us though! It cost us a lot of money to "furnish" our lab with the proper equipment, it cost to travel down and attend the breeder courses, each collection requires brand new disposable items which costs money, the extender I use costs nearly $40 by the time you do the exchange rate and shipping charges and I use up one bottle each time, and then I have an hour and a half one way drive to either the airport or Fed-Ex station. In the end, we still loose money on each and every collection. So no, I can't include the first collection for free in our stud fee. As well, I don't want to "add in" the collection fee into our stud fee and advertise our pony stallion's stud fee as $700 and take the chance that a Mare Owners get the wrong impression and think it's that much money + collection fees on top. Even when fees are clearly stated on a website, there are still Mare Owners that get confused and are not sure. I don't want to take the chance that I turn anybody away.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining at all. Just stating the facts as a Stallion Owner. For me personally, as a Mare Owner, I don't see it as a Stallion Owner advertising a stud fee for lower than it actually is and trying to pull the wool over anybody's eyes. Yes, a collection fee is an automatic expense, but a stud fee is a stud fee and a collection fee is not a stud fee, it's a collection fee. Most Stallion Owners have it clearly stated on their website, and if not, it is clearly stated in their contracts. I guess I just don't see the problem of adding the two together in my own head. ;)

As for the $2,500 stud fee Stallion Owners not including the collection fees in their stud fees as I used as an example above, that's their choice. If their stallion is in high demand and the stud fee is worth $2,500 to get a foal by him and you have to pay a collection fee on top of that, then so be it. Sometimes, I have to wonder if it isn't just easier to list the collection fee as separate so the Stallion Owner doesn't have to answer the same questions over and over again and the Mare Owners can clearly see all of the fees stated up front.

[Mozart]

I can sort of see the issue of the non-transerable LFG, if you have carefully assessed the mare and are confident the MO is providing appropriate care but in reality...how many SO's actually do? In my own admittedly limited experience, I have made arrangements by e-mail such that SO could theoretically verify I did indeed own the registered mares I claimed to but I have never been asked to provide a picture of the mare in question. For all they know they are bone racks. And for all they know the person I was selling the horse to was going to provide even better care.

As to the non-disclosure of heat sensitive semen...that's just not on. I wonder if non-disclosure of an important detail like that would vitiate the contract. Of course, even if the SO agrees to return the stud fee, the MO would still be out vet fees and would have potentially lost a breeding year. Not good. I am also really surprised the SO would not let the OP transfer to a different stallion they also stand. That makes no business sense to me at all.

[GGStables]

Hmmm....anyone want to touch "Booking Fees"??:confused:

[Daventry]

Hmmm....anyone want to touch "Booking Fees"??:confused:

lol, I'm right there with you...and I'm a Stallion Owner! I was going to comment on it but then decided not to. We do NOT charge a booking fee for any of our stallions. I know Kathy from EquineReproduction.com posted about booking fees a year or so ago on here (you'd have to do a search for it). She was talking about why booking fees came to be, and I think it had something to do with booking to the Thoroughbred stallions and many of us agreed that the booking fee should be no more!!

Now, if you've got a stallion in high demand and you accept many, many mares during the year, or limit your stallions book to x number of mares, I understand charging a booking fee to "reserve" that mares spot. But, a stallion that's maybe breeding 10 mares a year and definitely doesn't fill their breeding book for the year, whatever that may be, I just don't think it's right to be charging a booking fee. And worst yet for me, is the mare that pays their booking fee and stud fee and doesn't get in foal and then is required to pay an additional booking fee for the next breeding season. I think that's a rip off. The Stallion Owner ethically needs to just rebook that mare in for next season, regardless of why she didn't get pregnant. I understand maybe it helps deter those poor Mare Owners that are difficult to work with (which are very few) but, that comes with the territory of standing a stallion at public stud. Just my opinion! :yes:

[STF]

See Tracy, there you go! As a fellow mare owner, and one who counts pennies because let's face it: breeding is not pocket change; I'd absolutely want to know about your situation, and that stallion owner. Yes, there are two sides to any story and everyone makes their own decision in the end but as the saying goes: Forewarned is forearmed. In the same way we may hear good things about stallion owners as THE SERVICE/GOODS PROVIDERS in the marketplace, may we not also be made aware of the "bad businesses" out there?

In the first situation I very, very, VERY definately would NOT have forked over nearly $2000 alone for heat sensitive semen from an older, non-competitive stallion who ironically, lives in the hottest area in the US!

Not just that, but as was also implied in earlier posts, the additional fees they insisted upon pretty much sunk the deal. Despite the situation they still insisted on booking fees of $300 to try for the LFG the following year. I too, gave up and quietly told them where to shove it. While I understand that some stallions compete, collections usually cost something for the SO too, and no one is entitled to hand-outs and so forth...I mean, COME ON...! :mad:


I would like to know what SO did this to you. Could you PM me with it.

I will say, with all the breeders I have worked with, all of them have bent over backwards to help and do whatever was needed to acheive a pregnancy.

[STF]

I have had this happen to me. It's very frsutrating! You spend a good chuck of change on the stud fee, bred the mare 3 times, got a pregnancy and at 90 days she slipped the foal. :( SO was willing to let me change mares but I still found it frustrating that I had to pay for another $300 booking fee when I was already out $3000+. I also gave up and took the loss. Just wasn't worth it to work with the SO again. (Should also say we had an inital incident where the breeding farm accidentally sent a dry shipper back to them instead of their equitaner.) It was a big fight between the SO and the breeding farm with me in the middle over paying the late charges. It was an accident!!!



I guess Im to soft hearted (or I have lost enough money in this too, to be compastionate) but if that happened, you lost a foal, etc - I would not have changed anyone another booking fee and just transfered the semen to the next mare.

Last year, we had a young girl (college girl) who wanted to breed to our guy. I shipped her semen, but mare ovulated over night before it got there. Vet called me 2.5 weeks later and she did not take. We shipped again and the mare ovulated again early on the vet said 2 weeks later the mare did not take again. The girl was in with me for 2 collections. I felt sorry for her, collected the 3rd time for free and the vet held off on HcG until the morning the semen was to arrive and *poof* she should be foaling in a few months. To ask the young girl for another stud fee made me feel like a jerk as it was not her fault and she was doing this on limited funds (as many others do).

Maybe Im to much of a softie to be doing this game, I dont know. :(

[STF]

Hmmm....anyone want to touch "Booking Fees"??:confused:


Booking fees -
If one understood the time, paperwork, chinese firedrill, more paperwork, phone calls, more paperwork, faxes, etc that is part of being a stallion owner, you would not frown on booking fees.
I could be out there giving a lesson insteand of pushing paperwork, filling out forms, faxes, phone calls, etc and the non refundbale booking fee is to cover the cost of what the stallion owner has to do all of that, including time they could have been doing something else.

There is a lot of "stuff" that goes on with breeding and till you on the "other end of the AV", so to speak, some may no understand it.

[TKR]

I guess it's perception of what should be included. I never charged a booking fee -- to me that is a part of the stud fee -- paperwork, etc. The stud fee is to defray the expenses of standing a stallion and producing a foal. I have turned down mares that I considered poor candidates due to condition or temperment or glaring conformational flaws. It's just not worth it. The stallion gets the credit and the blame regardless. Live foal guarantees as usually outlined in a contract, protect the stallion owner from re-breeding a mare that is improperly managed -- i.e. if she doesn't get timely rhino vax, appropriate care, etc. Everyone has bad luck from time to time that is out of their hands, and those folks need a break on a re-breed.
PennyG

[STF]

Our booking fee is included in the stud fee and this year were only charging $500 stud/booking fee in total, so....

[Fairview Horse Center]

One thing that does bother me is SO that doesn't include first collection in the stud fee? I don't understand that one....I guess it is just a way to advertise their stud fee for lower than it really is. Obviously, one has to pay to get the collection , it is an automatic expense, that should be advertised and included in the stud fee.

There is a huge reason I do not include the 1st collection in my stud fee. Live cover mare owners should not have to pay an "inflated" fee that covers a collection that they will not use.

As a stallion owner, I will go to extremes to make a mare owner happy, but each SO has to decide how much they can or can't do, and put it in their contract, so everyone is on the same page. No one should be thrilled with me because I send out quality semen to their mare, and allow years to breed back if they don't get a foal. That is what I have agreed to. When people should be thrilled is when I get them semen after being contacted very late, or breeding beyond the contract agreements.

OTOH, they shouldn't trash someone if they can't do more than was agreed to. I remember a year that I had a breeder request semen in April. I heard nothing more - no response to if the mare was in foal, until September 3rd, after my regular breeding season had closed. They called for semen, and I had just left to go away on a few days of a vacation (my only for the year). The MO was furious that she was not getting a shipment. I offered to ship to them a week later if they short cycled the mare, or weeks later if they wanted her to cycle naturally, but nothing made them not trash me.

I am willing to collect way past the contract breeding season, but there is a responisbility there to keep me informed, and work with me around the FEW dates I am not available.

[Amoroso]

There is a huge reason I do not include the 1st collection in my stud fee. Live cover mare owners should not have to pay an "inflated" fee that covers a collection that they will not use.

I could be out of line, but this is how I look at it. Even a mare with live cover is essentially a "collection" as there is time involved to prep the mare, tease/palpate or ultrasound, get the stallion ready and do the actual cover. Thus, I don't see much of a difference between cover methods (aside from vet costs if it is done off site). Additionally, very few warmblood stallions offer live cover now days with the efficiency and minimal risk associated with AI. If I had an outside clinic doing collection work for me, I'd be sure to get the fee updated per year from the clinic to adjust my stud fee accordingly. I just think that first collection is part and parcel of a service. Again, this doesn't impact my decision process on a stallion - it is just my personal preference.

In regards to booking fees, I think they are totally understandable and I prefer to pay part in advance to secure my spot. It is a good faith deposit that shows your intent to use the stallion. I find most advertise a stud fee that includes booking anyhow.

[GGStables]

I guess it's perception of what should be included. I never charged a booking fee -- to me that is a part of the stud fee -- paperwork, etc. The stud fee is to defray the expenses of standing a stallion and producing a foal... Everyone has bad luck from time to time that is out of their hands, and those folks need a break on a re-breed.
PennyG

I think I have a crush on Penny. :D
My thoughts, exactly.

[GGStables]

I consider myself also to have limited experience with stallion owners... let's see...
3 x breedings with frozen imported semen - no issues with anyone/thing.
8 x breedings with fresh cooled semen, and 3 different stallions and owners. I guess you can add that I am friends with another stallion owner and familiar with her business practices.

Out of four "local" SO, two have what I view as lousy practices i.e. where the mare owner will come away second, no matter what happens and in heavy contrast, two SO that have absolutely blown me away with their service.

You guys talk about bending over backwards...:eek: oh man, they were unbelievable. Mare owners, we all know our mares often don't "read the breeding script" and ovulate when they bloody well want to, so yes, those frantic phonecalls to SO do happen despite our best laid plans. Both parties pulled out all the stops to help me get things done and frankly, they raise the bar of what we should expect from other stallion owners.

I will happily tell anyone who wants to know about either of them!:D

Rest assured, I am dead happy to give every last cent asked of me to people like that and I will be back doing business with both of them in a New York minute. In fact, once my next babies arrive I will have bred 4 x foals from their stallions over the last few years. Do the $$ math.

[tri]

I didn't have a bad experience in Cairo. I was taught what the culture was and I adhered to it. It is a respect issue and one that many Americans lack. Who would be absolutely STUPID enough (or disrespectful enough) to walk around the streets of Cairo in a tank top?

Do you also think it is ok to show the bottom of your shoes in some countries? How about making the "ok" symbol with your fingers in some countries? Ugly Americans and with good reason.

But, you ignored the rest of mine and several others' posts where many are negotiating prices quite regularly right here in the good ole US of A.

BTW, I mentioned booking fees in my first post on this thread and I don't agree with them at all.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I could be out of line, but this is how I look at it. Even a mare with live cover is essentially a "collection" as there is time involved to prep the mare, tease/palpate or ultrasound, get the stallion ready and do the actual cover. Thus, I don't see much of a difference between cover methods.

For live cover, start to finish, it takes me about 15 minutes, and about $1 in supplies. For a collection, it involves at least an hour or 2 on the farm including paperwork, a lot more money in supplies, plus driving 45 minutes each way to drop off at our FedEx hub at 8-9PM. I drop off so I can fill next day requests for semen as late as 4 or 5 PM. It gives fresher semen, and semen that has not been sitting in a hot truck all day.

There is a world of difference between the work and costs involved between live cover and a collection, so my fee schedule will continue to keep them separate. That said, anyone paying their breeding fee early can receive discounts that do include a collection.

[TKR]

Ah, shucks! Thanks GGStables -- that's pretty cool to hear when you are getting a bit long in the tooth! I've also had some outstanding experiences with SO's who have done a great job and went the extra miles to get it done.
PennyG

[Daventry]

For live cover, start to finish, it takes me about 15 minutes, and about $1 in supplies. For a collection, it involves at least an hour or 2 on the farm including paperwork, a lot more money in supplies, plus driving 45 minutes each way to drop off at our FedEx hub at 8-9PM. I drop off so I can fill next day requests for semen as late as 4 or 5 PM. It gives fresher semen, and semen that has not been sitting in a hot truck all day.

There is a world of difference between the work and costs involved between live cover and a collection.

Agreed! :yes:

[ASBJumper]

Fairview, Daventry, you're wasting your breath at this point. I now know there are stallion owners afraid to speak up on this thread (I've gotten pm's) for fear of being branded as "difficult" compared to the SO's who come on here and proudly boast about their low fees, or no fees, or crazy deals, or how they've gone out in their jammies after dark to collect and drive the semen 6 hours away bla bla bla... It's sad, really. Everyone seems to have this attitude that "it's always someone else's fault and SO's were put on this earth to serve me and cater to my every whim". :no:

Again, GGstables, I guess I approach the whole thing differently - when I'm breeding a mare, I don't expect OTHERS to "go the extra mile" - *I* go the extra mile. *I* pay for a few extra ultrasounds to make SURE, as best I can, that I get the timing right. If that means having the vet out to check my mare every day for five days, so be it. If it means checking her TWICE a day when she gets close, then SO BE IT. And before anyone makes a snarky remark about my finances, I am far from rich. But I do set aside enough funds so that I'm not stuck begging the SO to collect at the last second because *I* couldn't afford to check her more often and follow her cycle more closely, and that's also why I didn't rebreed for a full sibling to my 2008 colt - because I couldn't afford that AND show my youngster on the line and get my 5-yr old out to some shows.

As long as the SO is honest, courteous, holds up their end of the bargain, that's more than good enough for me.

But hey ... *shrugs* .. that's just me. I'm too busy being grateful every single day that I'm even able to breed. Maybe i should spend less time being grateful and more time demanding better deals and faster service.

[sid]

Yes, live cover is a "wham, bam, thank you ma'am" situation. Collection and shipping a whole different ball game -- from supplies, time involved to coordinate with MO's vet, the stallion handler and collector, mare owner dialogue, shippers, tracking shipments etc.). Plus running to the airport when a MO didn't call for shipment per contract agreement.

Most SO's I know will jump through hoops of fire get it there anyway, even when the MO has not abided by the logisitics/time frame asking for a shipment (been there, done that...the point is to please a customer).

That being said, repeat breeders who consistently do not follow the contract arrangements, nickel and dime, and EXPECT an SO to provide services beyond what was stipulated in the agreement (because they have no respect for the agreement) are those I politely decline further breedings. I've only had a few in my 20+ years of breeding.

I feel that booking fees are really obsolete for stallions that do AI only. So I don't charge that. I suspect a booking fee was needed with JC live covered mares to cover the cost of no-shows in the breeding shed...or to reserve time for a stallion who was racing or competing. Time is money.

Additionally, a LFG should always follow a contract IF the contract allows it to be transferred. The notion that someone brought up about a subsequent holder of a contract might not have a good vet, management, etc. is a bit controlling. How would you know if the original owner of the contract changed vets or got into some sort of trouble and the mare listed on the contract went south due to the owners' personal/financial problems?

If you offer a LFG, then you have to honor it. The only time you don't is if your contract states that, if the breeding transers that the LFG doesn't go with it. In that case, the signer on the original contract knows that up front.

Everything should be up front in a contract for every scenario that might happen in a breeding arrangement. If the contract is not clear, problems arise. If someone (MO or SO) is trying to shirk their fulfillment of a contract, then that's a different story. Bigger problems arise and ill-will ensues.

Almost every SO I know bends the contract in favor of the MO. Sometimes, no matter what you do, you can't make them happy when they have a problematic mare and the costs start rising on their end.

I LOVE my MO's. We're good to eachother, becuase we both know both ends of the breeding equation can be expensive when things don't go perfectly. For either of us. So we work together to get a lovely foal on the ground with mutual respect to the expenses that go into it.

[tri]

ASB, I don't think anyone requires anyone to be Jesus and walk on water to get a mare bred. I sure don't.

But there is such thing as being competitive in the marketplace and that is where I'm coming from with my posts. Maybe, for too long, there has been too many who got into breeding wbs because they had money and it was a status symbol not really caring how much it costs. Or foals sold easily and at higher prices because there just weren't that many there. Or the economy was booming and everyone was out of control and, hey whats another $1000 bucks.

But, now, in today's economy, more people are trimming costs. SOs that aren't as competitive as others will get passed over. That means those that have to trailer their horse out and pay a vet a wad of money won't be as competitive as someone who can do it themselves and therefor pass along more savings. Sucks, maybe, but, personally I think it is a good thing.

Yes, more competitive, cheaper prices, lower costs, streamlined services, attractive deals and attrative terms in most businesses means that business will survive and the industry will florish.

I am glad the 100 day stallion testing is defunct. I'm glad that some registries are pulling out/already pulled out of the american market, I'm glad that some registries have banded together.

Consolidation within the marketplace and standardization will make the U.S. sporthorse industry more stable, bring down costs, aid in educating the consumer and in general, make the U.S. sporthorse industry more profitable and secure.

But then I'm a rebel. (I truly would like to see all health insurance be outlawed. Can you imagine how the price of healthcare would tumble if it did? Everyone might actually be able to afford it themselves!)

A consumer-driven marketplace forces prices down and the ones that can lower their costs and attract the consumer while keeping them happy wins.

[sid]

In the free market system, contracts between two parties can vary. Negotiation is a private matter.

Earlier on in this thread I saw a few posts who thinks standardizing breeding contracts is in order. A bit "socialistic", don't ya think? (shaking head).

[GGStables]

Fairview, Daventry, you're wasting your breath at this point. I now know there are stallion owners afraid to speak up on this thread (I've gotten pm's) for fear of being branded as "difficult" compared to the SO's who come on here and proudly boast about their low fees, or no fees, or crazy deals, or how they've gone out in their jammies after dark to collect and drive the semen 6 hours away bla bla bla... It's sad, really. Everyone seems to have this attitude that "it's always someone else's fault and SO's were put on this earth to serve me and cater to my every whim". :no:

Again, GGstables, I guess I approach the whole thing differently - when I'm breeding a mare, I don't expect OTHERS to "go the extra mile" - *I* go the extra mile. *I* pay for a few extra ultrasounds to make SURE, as best I can, that I get the timing right. If that means having the vet out to check my mare every day for five days, so be it. If it means checking her TWICE a day when she gets close, then SO BE IT. And before anyone makes a snarky remark about my finances, I am far from rich. But I do set aside enough funds so that I'm not stuck begging the SO to collect at the last second because *I* couldn't afford to check her more often and follow her cycle more closely, and that's also why I didn't rebreed for a full sibling to my 2008 colt - because I couldn't afford that AND show my youngster on the line and get my 5-yr old out to some shows.

As long as the SO is honest, courteous, holds up their end of the bargain, that's more than good enough for me.

But hey ... *shrugs* .. that's just me. I'm too busy being grateful every single day that I'm even able to breed. Maybe i should spend less time being grateful and more time demanding better deals and faster service.

Oh, deflate, would ya?:lol:
Differently to whom? We all do our bit, and stuff still happens. That’s perhaps the crux. When stuff happens, some SO just are great SO and do go that extra mile automatically, for whatever reasons. Pointing out brilliant service providers who raise the bar on customer service – not slashing their fees specifically - can only be a pain in the arse to their competitors who don’t want/care to do the same. I can’t see why you puff and posture.

Anyways, I believe I’ve now clarified THREE times that in my own situation the sole motivation was to get what I paid for - no more, no less. Geez. I can’t make it any clearer.

I will say it this way: I chose that stallion despite his higher breeding fee, age and dated performance record; he was a great match for my mare. I was prepared to pay my way and didn’t ask for any considerations. The rest of the story has been told. The bottom line is: I will never, never go back to them and when anyone asks why, I tell. When I’m asked by breeders for help with stallion choices, I will never mention theirs. Simple.

As far as the clauses go, why can't we question the reasons for their existance? It's an enquiry, not a demand, ferheavenssakes. Discounts and so forth is a discussion that has fallen out from there but the majority of stallion owners who’ve responded here seem to be of the same mind as I am which leads me to believe that my expectations aren’t outlandish.

Crappy, unethical, and mindless SO with (copied?) clauses in self-serving contracts buffered to the hilt for their sole protection are out there, too. Yes, I've also received lots of private e-mails! :no:

[sid]

GG - I'm sure you are frustrated. But I'm still not clear if the SO breached the contract you signed. If so, you have legal action available to you. That is why contracts are written and signed by both parties.

I STILL wish that MO's would read contracts very carefully. Then praise when an SO lets a MO breach and without BB complaint (maybe a little internal muttering...wink!) just to help them get that foal they wanted on the ground.

Heresay runs rampant in the horse world, not just in breeding endeavors, but in training, boarding and even veterinary care.

The best thing to do is read the contract and then develop a relationship with those with whom you are doing business, IMO and in my experience.
If the breeding did not turn out as expected, sometimes no one is to blame, though there is the tendency to want to.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Situation 1:
Stallion is older, lives in a hot climate and his semen is sensitive to heat. This is not disclosed to mare owner at time of semen purchase. After many, MANY breeding dollars spent in one season on multiple efforts to get a breeding sound, fertile mare A in foal and eventually also trying with breeding sound, fertile and proven mare B with no results, the question to the stallion owner is whether the breeding can be transfered to another stallion they have at stud. Whatever the $ difference, it will be lost to me or paid by me.
Answer: No!

If you are breeding, you or your vet should have checked the first shipment to see if you had a viable breeding dose. If not, the stallion owner needed to change something to provide you with viable semen. If they can't provide you with an industry standard breeding dose of progressive sperm, you stop immediately because dead sperm will not get a mare pregnant. If they are not able or willing to get you that semen, they were not living up to the agreement, and you would have had grounds for you money back.

HOWEVER, if no one checks the semen for shipment after shipment, and you continue to breed your mare, cycle after cycle, then you have no idea, and no proof as to the quality of the shipments.

Some stallion owners may stand on the letter of their contract because they don't feel the mare owner is doing her part, and they are tired of being jerked around month after month.

Who says his semen is sensitive to heat? What proof do you have?

If changing stallions was not agreed to in the contract you signed, then the only possible breech is the semen quality. I believe Kathy (Equine Repro) videos the semen she receives if there is a problem so she has proof of what was received. At least a basic ($50) microscope can save thousands and MUCH frustration. You may also find out that the semen is great, but the mare is just not getting in foal - timing, fluid, etc.


Situation 2:
Mare is inseminated under a LFG clause. Owner wants to sell mare but SO will not honour the LFG with the new owner. This seems an inconsistent thing from SO to SO..

This is pretty standard to not be transferable in most contracts. I remember when I worked for someone that had purchased a racing broodmare at an auction in foal to a stallion that stood for $6500 (this was 30 years ago). The mare aborted, and she had no breed back.

Does it say the contract is transferable?

[smokygirl]

[QUOTE=GGStables;3822346]I'll try to write this without too much information to make this either an epistle or inflammatory - which is certainly not the intention.

I'm wondering about a certain clause in breeding contracts and also (all things being equal) why a SO would refuse to negotiate on a particular point where another SO would have no trouble with it. For example:

Situation 1:
Stallion is older, lives in a hot climate and his semen is sensitive to heat. This is not disclosed to mare owner at time of semen purchase. After many, MANY breeding dollars spent in one season on multiple efforts to get a breeding sound, fertile mare A in foal and eventually also trying with breeding sound, fertile and proven mare B with no results, the question to the stallion owner is whether the breeding can be transfered to another stallion they have at stud. Whatever the $ difference, it will be lost to me or paid by me.
Answer: No!

Do they own both stallions? That would be my first ?. A lot of times, people stand stallions for multiple owners.. if they aren't owned by the same person, they can't really transfer the breedings. Other ?s would be, is the second stallion at public stud, and if he is, is his book full. Too many ?s.. it's all on an individual level. Generally I'd say no, and give the option of live cover or shipping earlier in the year or later when it's not as hot out, depending on the circumstances. I'd also probably have the semen checked, as well as the method, as something could be wrong. Too many variables to determine yes or no from the little posted.
Situation 2:
Mare is inseminated under a LFG clause. Owner wants to sell mare but SO will not honour the LFG with the new owner. This seems an inconsistent thing from SO to SO.

Absolutely no way LFG would transfer. THey could sell their mare or foal to anyone in the world. I did not enter a contract with "Joe Blow".. it was with "MO"... I'm not going to give a LFG to someone whom may not have even seen the contract or had an oppurtunity to ask about, and whom I have no idea what kind of care they are giving the mare and foal.

[GGStables]

Fairview: Hmmm...so, what’s the protocol then, when the semen arrives with documentation stating its viability, the mare’s ready to go and we inseminate, and save a drop for evaluation. The test comes back with a lousy report and SO says “Well, the semen was fine when it left here.”

As a MO you’re stuck. You’ve paid all the breeding fees left and right, shipped the stuff and paid for that, inseminated in good faith and paid for that too, and now you'll have to wait for at least 14 – 17 days or whatever – it only needs just one little sperm cell to make it, right? – and proven, breeding sound mare comes up empty 2-3 weeks later. (I should just add here that our vet is also a breeder and really, really good at breeding with fresh and frozen – even with difficult cases).

Based on when one is able to start your breeding program, the Season Clock is ticking, most MO will have taken great pains (and MONTHS) to select the stallion and can hardly begin a search again, and besides, one has already formed that relationship in whatever fashion with the SO up until that point.

Worse, if the vet check can only happen on a certain day – it’s breeding season after all - and the mare is making ready again but the SO either doesn’t collect on whatever days to get the sync going, or will collect, but from bitter experience the shipment will get held up at the US/Canada border on the w/end…so of course the next week is going to be an (expensive) run-around for everybody, or a non-starter. If it’s a non-starter, then the next heat cycle is all the more important to get right.

More dollars controlling the mare’s ovulation, etc…semen collected, shipped in, vets doing their thing, semen checked: Lousy. Well, uh…SO, we appear to have the same situation again. Lo' and behold, I get the same response from them the second time. We wait again and pray the remaining sperm cells swim like hell. Round 2 of checking 14 – 17 days later. Nada. :no: Rinse, repeat.

This time with another mare who normally catches on the word “semen” and even though the 2nd mare wasn’t in the original plan, it’s not a bad match and besides, at that point one is so deeply invested and willing to try all options.

Is that jerking a SO around? Bear in mind that the MO pays – often through the nose - for every step of the process, so what benefit is there to “jerk a SO around for months and months”? In the end, the three attempts made with two different mares still produced nothing. Even frozen semen which is notoriously trickier has a better conception rate than that, and at some point you actually have to just give up. There isn’t an endless supply of money, and the season doesn’t last forever.

To answer your question, after trying the two mares (FWIW, as we speak, both are happily pregnant with frozen and another with cooled) and losing out to that breeding season altogether, the owners admitted to the heat sensitivity - quite casually, I might add - and said they’ll be changing their shipping containers to accommodate this the following year. This was also when they asked for another $300 as a “booking fee” for the following season’s LFG left-over.

$300 “booking fee”? Really? For the following year’s LFG left-over clause? Or, as someone mentioned earlier – as a good faith deposit? Excuuuuse me? Sorry, but that’s insane. Let’s do some math with that, anyway:
** A median salary is what? Maybe $22/hr. Could even be a bit high there, I’m not sure, but let’s assume horse owners have higher income/disposable wages. **

Therefore, if I did earn that per hour I must work for 13.6 hrs – almost 2 days to cover that fee alone, and in order for the SO to do maybe an hour or two’s worth of paperwork & phone calls? Who in the world earns $150 - $300 an hour?

As Penny and other SO suggest, the stud fee is to defray the expenses of standing a stallion and producing a foal. Are we wrong?

Regarding Situation 2 and a LFG transfer of a pregnant mare etc., I haven’t a clue what the contract says as it’s not my own situation.

My questions are b/cause I have experienced both kinds of SO responses and even on here, the SO differ greatly on the issues. IMHO when it pertains to something that is not a show-stopper, like an infertile or infected mare would be, for example, and the fact that some SO don't include those clauses in their contracts, it begs questioning on their relativity and primary value to stallion owners.

I would say that both issues *DO* however, carry much greater significance with mare owners.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Fairview: Hmmm...so, what’s the protocol then, when the semen arrives with documentation stating its viability, the mare’s ready to go and we inseminate, and save a drop for evaluation. The test comes back with a lousy report and SO says “Well, the semen was fine when it left here.” .

Well, first, the "test comes back" is not the way you check semen. You warm a drop to 99 degrees, and check it immediately, then do the math to make sure you have a breeding dose. If not, the vet should right then call the stallion owner to tell them that the semen is not viable, and discuss changes to get you what the contract agreed to - counter to counter to not miss that cycle.

If the semen was fine when it left, the stallion owner needs to have their "hold back sample" evaluated to know that something did not happen in processing. They should also have prior evaluations on file as to shipping viability of that stallions semen. Then the SO needs to file a claim with FedEx against the insurance that they paid for when it was shipped. That should cover the cost of collection, and that cycle of vet bills for palpating, etc. I insure every shipment for $750.

I also send the protocol for checking the sperm with every shipment along with sperm numbers, and estimated dose needed for a range of conditions at arrival. I do this because the most common cause of poor semen quality is not checking the sperm properly.

The more professional you treat it on your end, the more likely the stalliion owner will realize they have to step up to the plate and solve the problem. Have your vet write a letter containing the semen evaluations from all 3 shipments. Then send it along with a copy of your breeding contract, highlighting the area that you believe they were not living up to their agreement, and how you would like to see it remedied. Send it certified.

[Daventry]

so, what’s the protocol then, when the semen arrives with documentation stating its viability, the mare’s ready to go and we inseminate, and save a drop for evaluation. The test comes back with a lousy report...As a MO you’re stuck.


Then it is NOT viable semen! Doesn't matter how good the semen was before it left the Stallion Owner, if it arrives in poor condition after being evaluated properly at the Mare Owners end, it's crappy semen. The semen could be dancing on it's head(s) :D at the Stallion Owner facility, but if it doesn't ship well, was extended improperly, processed improperly, shipped in a disposable container and exposed to extreme heat, etc., etc., it's going to cause problems on the Mare Owners end.

As a Stallion Owner, we always hold back a small amount of semen from each shipment and I store it here and check it at various intervals. If I was ever to get a complaint that the semen was inadequate, I would jump through hoops to rectify the situation! It's even written in our contract that we hold ourselves responsible for delivering the best semen possible and sending industry standard doses.

Like Fairview, we also send out a Semen Evaluation sheet with each shipment, stating all facts and calculations about the semen and it also has a "semen protocol" at the bottom of the sheet with instructions on how to prepare a sample of the semen for evaluation at the Mare Owners end. But, if it is not done correctly, even great semen can look really lousy under the microscope. Here is a great article on Kathy's site about evaluating semen and what is considered bad semen, or good:
www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/Poor-Semen.shtml (http://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/Poor-Semen.shtml)


Worse, if the vet check can only happen on a certain day – it’s breeding season after all - and the mare is making ready again but the SO either doesn’t collect on whatever days to get the sync going, or will collect, but from bitter experience the shipment will get held up at the US/Canada border on the w/end…so of course the next week is going to be an (expensive) run-around for everybody, or a non-starter.


The Stallion Owner must live up to their end of the bargain by giving you viable semen. The Mare Owner also has to live up to their end of the bargain too! And that is by ensuring their mare is in breeding sound condition, making sure to notify the Stallion Owner in a timely manner that semen is needed and making sure you are using a competent veterinarian or equine reproduction specialist!

Hearing a Mare Owner say that the "ultrasound can only happen on a certain day" makes a Stallion Owner cringe! While we all know that mares end up following their own schedule and are not all textbook cases, as far as heat cycles go, it's the Mare Owners duty to make sure the mare is being managed properly before being bred. If the vet can only come out on day X, get another vet out, stable mare at the vet clinic or closer location so the vet can check her, do the P&E protocol, Regumate, whatever it will take to help you predict the mares heat cycles. A diligent Mare Owner will be able to keep track of their heat cycles at home and have a rough idea of when she will be coming into heat.

As far as the Stallion Owner only collecting on certain days...as a Mare Owner, you have to read your contract. Ask questions, find out when the Stallion Owner collects, when they don't and when is the last possible minute you can order semen. Again, read the information above about managing a mare before breeding. If this is done properly, it will greatly help limit the last minute, pulling my hair out, I need semen now scenario.

As a Stallion Owner, of course we've had that one mare that didn't cooperate and the Mare Owner needed semen earlier than expected and we've done all we can to get it there on time. That being said, we always encourage our Mare Owners to let us know the second their mare comes into heat. I consider myself on call from that point on! But, if the Stallion Owner, Mare Owner and veterinarian/repro specialist are not working together, it will greatly reduce your chances of a successful pregnancy. Communication, management and scheduling are key! ;)

[tri]

Earlier on in this thread I saw a few posts who thinks standardizing breeding contracts is in order. A bit "socialistic", don't ya think? (shaking head).

Now you've done gone and said the "S" word. As a capitalist and proud of it, that makes me shudder.

A lot of industries have industry associations (registries anyone?) and those associations have "standards" that anyone who is a member of pledges to use & uphold those standards. Something like that would work very well in the U.S. sporthorse industry if the euro registries were really interested in building a breeding industry here instead of just selling horses/semen.

But, really, standardization happens a lot without socialism - not asking the government to force it down our throats like we have with the O administration. Semen doses have standard doses. Isn't there a standard on what makes semen "good" quality - motility, etc?

So, no requirement that a registry or anything else dictates what the breeding contract should be. But a SO that advertises that they use and adhere to the "approved standardized breeding contract recommended by the Blah Blah Blah registry" wouldn't be a bad thing.

[sid]

Yes, there certainly are industry standards for what is acceptable semen quality and what is not, as there well should be! Breeding via AI is grounded in science.

I was referring to things like LFG's, booking fees and other "options" in breeding contracts.

[Beezer]

FWIW, there's a big difference between a LFG, i.e. what's contractually obligated when the stud fee is paid upfront by the mare owner (or when the booking fee is paid and then the rest when the mare is confirmed in foal) versus the standard practice of what's done in the TB (racing and often sporthorse world), which is that the stud fee is payable when the foal stands and nurses.

No standing and nursing foal, no stud fee. Usually you have a few days to be sure the foal survives before having to pay the stud fee. The paperwork to register the foal is held hostage to ensure payment. The vast majority of the time, if you still own the mare but have no foal, you get breed-back rights; if you sold her, those rights did not go with her.

LFG generally applies only when the stud fee is paid upfront. The registration paperwork is usually long in the mare owner's hands before the foal is born. Whether the LFG follows the mare if she is sold while in foal entirely depends on the breeding contract and the SO's philosophy.

The whole "pay upfront before you get a foal" was a real eye-opener to people like me who had long bred for the racing world. And while I understand the logical of LFGs (particularly since WBs are overwhelmingly bred by AI and TBs cannot be and get Jockey Club papers), I still have to honestly say I like the "stand and pay" option better.

[Daventry]

Please understand though Beezer, there is a huge difference between an unregistered Thoroughbred and an unregistered warmblood or hunter pony.

A Thoroughbred without papers is basically useless in the racing world. Which is why, a Thoroughbred Stallion Owner can wait to get paid, and knows they will get paid once a foal hits the ground because they know the Mare Owner wants and needs those Jockey Club papers.

But in the warmblood or hunter pony world, for example, a horse can show, train, breed...basically do whatever they want without papers. And many, MANY trainers and riders could care less what breeding their horses have or whether they have papers or not. Which is why a warmblood or pony Stallion Owner cannot rely on a Mare Owner to pay up once the foal is on the ground. I can guarantee you that there would be a few people skipping out on their bills! This is why warmblood and pony Stallion Owners, among other breeds, require the stud fee be paid in full before the mare is bred.

Unfortunately, there is a huge difference between the Thoroughbred industry and many of the other breeds out there.

[Beezer]

No, I understand, Daventry. :) And I completely see your point. I was just more speaking to people who were earlier talking about LFGs in the TB world, but they aren't at all the same as in the WB world. Which is why a TB mare in foal to a TB can and is often sold in foal with the stud fee payable by the breeder (i.e. the owner of the mare at the time of foaling).

That's also why in the TB world the breeder of a foal is the owner of record when the mare foals (and the person who pays the stud fee ;) ) and not the one who "engineered" the mating.

I know and appreciate why a WB stallion owner would write the contracts the way they do. It was just a shock to us TB people, that's all. :)

[ahf]

It was a shock to me too Beezer, as I only had experience with racehorse breeding when I took up sporthorse breeding.

The BIGGEST shock though, was "WHat do you mean there is no such thing as pulling past performance and progeny reports?" :lol:

[Equilibrium]

I'll be honest, I don't understand all the different fees that go with breeding to a stallion back home. Here the fee is the fee. Really shipping from country to country is a bit more time consuming and red tape oriented and still no collection fee things happening over here. You pay for shipping, but that's the only extra.

I don't know how TB's work back home, but the stallion owners here are incredibly easy to deal with no matter if you are a big or small breeder. I've known a few people who's mares aborted after the stud fee was paid without a LFG and they always got to go back to the same stallion for no fee. My clauses this year are stands/nurses/48hours.

As a mare owner I try to respect the fact I'm not the only person in the world who is having a mare bred. I send my TB mare down to the sporthorse stud for covering because she's always been a bit funny with ovulation. I just feel it's easier for them if she's there. Plus it's a great hotel and the SO knows how much I adore my mare and trys to make an extra effort to let me know how she's doing. I also get my mare tested for CEM and EVA before she goes down as well as making sure she's in good order inside and out. I feel it's not their job only to make sure my mare gets pregnant. I also think it cute they send out little caslick reminders. I didn't realize how many people forget that type of thing. Apparently, more than you think. They try their hardest to make sure you get a live foal and we do the same on our end. It's why I really won't take my mare anywhere else. I appreciate good SO's the same as the appreciate good mare owners.:)

Terri