Just need to vent - Unethical? Unprofessional? Or Business Smart?

[PLeC]

I had a conversation with someone who I used to be quite friendly, but also who I did business with in the past and got burned. This is a trainer who dabbled in breeding, and has a couple yearlings and a couple more on the way. None of these youngsters are registered and all are out of unapproved thoroughbred mares -- and at least one dam doesn't even have JC papers. Her cited breeding objective was to produce sporthorses. Since she was going to start them herself, she said there was no reason to register any of them or have the dams approved -- too expensive. "Nobody cares since they'll be going under saddle." Okay, to each their own.

Now I find out that she's decided to sell all of them because they're just too expensive to keep until they're grown. But she's marketing them as Dutch and Oldenburg. The two "Dutch" ones are by an unapproved, Dutch papered stallion she got a "deal" on and the "Oldenburg" ones were live covered by her 1/2 Thoroughbred foalbook 2yo (now a gelding). So, not even a CP. Grrrrr :mad:

I know -- none of my business, but it just really gripes me. Do most sporthorse buyers really not care at all about papers? I admit, I've sold a couple to people who glazed over when I talked about bloodlines, but jeesh! Just wanted to vent and see what other people thought....

[TKR]

I think it could be chalked up more to ignorance and laziness, maybe some ego thrown in, too. Fortunately, most "breeders" who produce that many become educated and understand that it's a tough market and approvals, papers and savvy mating choices are essential to produce foals that will sell, whether u/s or before. I am impressed more and more with the dedication breeders have and the knowledge they try to obtain. There are weak areas in any phase of the horse industry, but overall, the breeding has come a long way. I would be more concerned with what happens to these hapless animals in a very depressed market. They are the victims of this circumstance.
PennyG

[misita]

Most people buying young horses do care about papers and pedigrees and the market is filled with such as you described for very low prices, if they can sell them at all. I only hope they find homes with loving responsible owners.

I recently rescued two such sport horse babies from the glue factory.
The dams were both JC reg. mares and the sire is a reg. Andalusion. Both babies are able to be registered. Once these babies were past the critical period, I tried to give them away with no takers. I've since decided to just raise them myself unless a dream home comes up for them.

For those of you who might remember Bonnie and Clyde, you'll be happy to know they're doing much better now yet still underweight a little. They both just got their baby shots and Clyde, the darker of the two, was gelded today. He's doing very well tonight.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

I would think a prospective buyer would figure it out as soon as they ask for papers or registry information.

I do see people do this all the time. Normally when you are on equine.com or an internet sales site you scroll down and the seller has to mark whether or not the horse is registered.

[PineTreeFarm]

I know -- none of my business, but it just really gripes me. Do most sporthorse buyers really not care at all about papers? I admit, I've sold a couple to people who glazed over when I talked about bloodlines, but jeesh! Just wanted to vent and see what other people thought....

That will depend on who you ask. If you ask a breeder they will insist that the horse has no value at all without papers.

If you ask someone looking for a prospect to make up as a performance horse the answer will be different. Especially if it's a gelding. Who cares.
If the horse looks to have NO talent for the intended job papers aren't going to help it get over a fence.

[Touchstone Farm]

I think buyers are getting more and more educated, and the horses that are registered with a main registry (i.e., Dutch, Hanoverian, Oldenburg) go for more money. I had a prospective buyer who was looking for a riding horse ask me about a coming 5-year-old, wanting to know what her scores were from the Hanoverian mare inspection. So, while I think there is a buyer for any horse, the educated buyers are looking for well-bred, good moving, good-minded horses that are registered -- especially if they want to show and are interested in breed awards.

I know it irks you, but she'll learn... She's already learned that breeding isn't a way to become a millionaire!

[Indy-lou]

Misita: Are those the updated photos of Bonnie and Clyde or when you first got them? Bless your heart for taking them in. Maybe you should start a Bonnie and Clyde thread and keep us posted on their progress.

[Kyzteke]

A number of years ago a breeder bought a 2 yr. old colt from Europe -- he was branded (registered) by a well-known registry but never approved. Never was approved (in fact was rejected). Never the less, this person managed to breed over 200 mares, promoting him heavily, and most of the time called the stallion "A BLAH_BLAH" stallion (name of the actual registry changed to protect the guilty).

At the time, Americans didn't really understand the WB system of registration vs approval and I met several mare owners who were pretty surprised to find out that their foal by this stallion o/o their QH/Draft mare wasn't eligible for WB registry papers.

Since then I think the WB buying public has smartened up alot, but I'm still surprised at the "liberty" some SOs or breeders take when describing their product -- for instance "a RPSI stallion" when the stallion is simply recorded by that registry.

I suspect this breeder will get afew unsuspecting rubes...but maybe not in this market....

A real shame, because it makes the honest breeders look so much worse.

[suniday]

I am not a breeder, but I appreciate and value good bloodlines.

I looked at a young horse last year who was represented as a unregistered WB/TB cross. He LOOKED just like a young TB not a WB/TB cross. I already had my eyebrows raised, but was trying to give the owner the benefit of the doubt. Then she said "he's unraced". THAT blew the deal for me. I am NOT paying xx,xxxx for a unknown barely broke TB.

I did pay x,xxx for a young USEF registered TB by a well-known sporthorse producing TB.

Sellers do themselves a huge disservice by misrepresenting their sale horses whether they have bred them or not.

[cloudyandcallie]

Most people buying young horses do care about papers and pedigrees and the market is filled with such as you described for very low prices, if they can sell them at all. I only hope they find homes with loving responsible owners.

I recently rescued two such sport horse babies from the glue factory.
The dams were both JC reg. mares and the sire is a reg. Andalusion. Both babies are able to be registered. Once these babies were past the critical period, I tried to give them away with no takers. I've since decided to just raise them myself unless a dream home comes up for them.

For those of you who might remember Bonnie and Clyde, you'll be happy to know they're doing much better now yet still underweight a little. They both just got their baby shots and Clyde, the darker of the two, was gelded today. He's doing very well tonight.

Awwwh, great of you to rescue the 2 little cuties when you've had problems with fiorest fires and heat and all last summer. They are lucky you saved them.

[PineTreeFarm]

I looked at a young horse last year who was represented as a unregistered WB/TB cross. He LOOKED just like a young TB not a WB/TB cross. I already had my eyebrows raised, but was trying to give the owner the benefit of the doubt. Then she said "he's unraced". THAT blew the deal for me. I am NOT paying xx,xxxx for a unknown barely broke TB.

I did pay x,xxx for a young USEF registered TB by a well-known sporthorse producing TB.
.

Looking at Hunters most of the horses in the top of the USEF 3'6 " and above standings that are US bred are either a) TB (mostly bred for the track ) or b) TB/WB crosses that were purpose bred for sport and are not listed as affiliated with a WB registry.

It's possible to list pedigree info with USEF or declare the horse to be a certain breed and have that info be incorrect. If the horse was PHR registered and DNA typed you'd have more assurance of the horse ID being correct.

[Summit Springs Farm]

I am with you, but please don't portray non approved TB mares as unsuitable for breeding to WB stallions.

Just because a TB is not approved does not mean she is not worthy.

I bought a TB mare for the sole purpose of breeding her to a WB stallion Popeye K.

The resulting foal, if I may say is beautiful!!!!! She is registered KWPN-NA. She is not approved, as of yet, because the approval site is a 6 hour trailer ride for a weanling, I thought it wasn't worth doing that trailer ride to my baby.

SO there you have it, part of what your friend has done, so have I. Anyway, here's a link to my beautiful baby filly D'Lovely SSF http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/orderpage.aspx?pi=03HV00I8310011&po=11

[Signature]

I'm probably restating a lot of what's been said but we find if people are buying a baby, they are interested in bloodlines and papers, etc. Really, what else would they have to base an expectation of future performance on? Just like racehorses are purchased as babies by pedigree only.

But, it seems as they become 3 and are started under saddle, and then you can see what they can really do, as long as the look/move/act the part, people seem to care much less about what they really are. :)

[maple_brook]

Every year, I organize and run the Hanoverian booth at the MA Equine Affaire. And every year, we have to sad job of explaining to a few people that their new horse *probably* isn't eligible to be registered with the AHS. I say *probably* because I always refer them to the AHS office to be sure as I am not in a position to speak for them. But when they have a non-papered 3 year old, by a stallion that isn't approved hanoverian, and out of a non-hanoverian mare...well it's pretty safe to say, I don't think you are going to get registration papers.

These people are always very disappointed and tell us of how the seller swore all they had to do was contact the AHS to get hanoverian papers on the horse. It is really sad how some people take advantage of the fact that not everyone understands the warmblood breeding process of approvals. I was happy this year as there was at least 1 person who came to our booth that was in the midst of buying a horse like those described. We strongly encouraged them to contact the AHS office to confirm the horse's information before buying.

The only way to prevent this is through education of the general horse buying public.

[NoDQhere]

Most buyers do want papers even if the horse is going under saddle. After all, the papers do prove who the horse is. Buyers have become much more educated over the last few years, especially as the market has become so much tougher.

Many people have been duped. Like the person who bought a "warmblood" that is sired by a stock horse out of a WB/Paint cross mare. The horse was represented as a Warmblood by a seller who knew better but also knew a Warmblood was a lot easier to sell than a Paint/QH/WB cross :mad:.

[Janet]

There is a difference between "known bloodlines" and "papers".

All the horses I have bought in the last 25 years have been bought directly or indirectly from the breeder- all but one of them not yet under saddle.

So I am an example of a buyer of young stock- can't say whether or not I am typical or not.

If I am buying to keep, I really don't care about the papers, but I do care about knowing the bloodlines.

If I am buying for resale, then I do care about papers, but more because they document the bloodlines than because of any "mark of approval".

In either case, I am buying only for future performance. I am not buying them as "breeding stock".

Of the 4 I have now
-JC registered TB
-3/4 TB, 1//4 QH, not registered with anything
-TB x Connemara, registered with ACPS as a half bred
-Anglo x Irish x French, registered and inspected "red preferred" with AWS

the only one where I really care about the papers is the halfbred Connemara.

That is because
a) There are Connemara shows and Connemara division at USEF shows which reqiure papers
b) I enjoy the social activites of the local ACPS

As a future performance horse, I don't think either "papers" or even inspection/approval is a particularly good predictor of future performance.

I did go to the trouble of getting the AWS inspected, but it was as much for the training/experience as for the results, though I figure the results may help with his evential sale. But if it had been more than 2 hrs away, I would not have bothered.

That being said, IF I were breeding for resale, I WOULD make sure that the offspring were at least registered.

[misita]

Misita: Are those the updated photos of Bonnie and Clyde or when you first got them? Bless your heart for taking them in. Maybe you should start a Bonnie and Clyde thread and keep us posted on their progress.

Those are the original photos. They look so great now but my vet was out yesterday and said they're still a little under weight. Hard to believe since I got them Oct. 26th. Almost 3 months ago. I'll get some new photos of them soon and post them. They both have wonderful dispostions.

I would not breed unregisted animals. It costs so much to get one on the ground, and then properly trained to the point where he's a good performance horse. In the long run, it just doesn't seem you save much by breeding horses who cannot be registered. I do think once they're going well u/s and prove themselves in performance, then they are marketable, papered or not. But again, it costs a ton to get a horse to this point. I prefer to work with proven bloodlines from horses who have passed their breeding approvals.

[camohn]

I would say it's not unethical as long as the horse is advertised as "unregistered DWB foal" so it is clear up front. If they are advertised as "DWB foal" and the buyer does not find out the horse is not registered until they pay for the horse and expect to be handed papers then that is unethical.
If it's important? For selling young stock, then generally yes. You are selling potential and a lot of that emphasis is going to be put on the pedigree since the critter is doing nothing itself. Once unde saddle it is not so important for a gelding, it is still important for a filly since someone might want to breed her and REGISTER her foal someday. The hunter folks as a whole care less about papers than some other disciplines....but they do care what the parents DID. An unregistered foal out of a mare who did not show and an unapproved sire? Darn difficult to sell. It is always best to plan for "worst case scenario" in case something comes up and a horse does have to be sold than banking on the best............

[RiverOaksFarm]

Every year, I organize and run the Hanoverian booth at the MA Equine Affaire. And every year, we have to sad job of explaining to a few people that their new horse *probably* isn't eligible to be registered with the AHS. I say *probably* because I always refer them to the AHS office to be sure as I am not in a position to speak for them. But when they have a non-papered 3 year old, by a stallion that isn't approved hanoverian, and out of a non-hanoverian mare...well it's pretty safe to say, I don't think you are going to get registration papers.

These people are always very disappointed and tell us of how the seller swore all they had to do was contact the AHS to get hanoverian papers on the horse. It is really sad how some people take advantage of the fact that not everyone understands the warmblood breeding process of approvals. I was happy this year as there was at least 1 person who came to our booth that was in the midst of buying a horse like those described. We strongly encouraged them to contact the AHS office to confirm the horse's information before buying.

The only way to prevent this is through education of the general horse buying public.

I encounter this alot with the Friesian Sporthorse Association as well. It is sad, and you feel for the buyer, but unfortunately it's really "buyer beware". I agree with you that better education of the general horse buying public would help put an end to alot of this.

As far as the importance of papers, I've found that papers seem to matter the most for youngsters, for breeding stock, and when selling a horse (because of the added prestige of good bloodlines and/or affiliation with a reputable registry.) But papers still seem to have at least some importance to most everyone, if for no other reason than that they prove the horse is what it is advertised to be, and is the age represented. Papers and registry affiliation can also be important for year-end awards, such as USDF All-Breeds.

[Fairview Horse Center]

ALL horses are eligible for some type of registration - PHR, RHPSI, AWS, etc. Probably over 95% of the people (Sporthorse discipline type) are buying for riding, not breeding, and most of those that care about papers, really don't care WHAT papers they are getting. They just want to prove the pedigree.

They are quite happy with even a CP as that will prove the pedigree, and make them eligible for breed awards. For fillies, it often makes them eligible for inspection and approval for a few registries. That is plenty for the people I have dealt with, but others may have different responses because they are being approached about a specific registry (those other 5% of people that are interested in breeding), not someone looking for a riding horse (95%). Before someone says it, I have also sold fillies into riding homes, and they later changed their minds and decided to breed. I have not had any complaints, and one of those fillies was approved with the ISR/Old, and then leased by one of the top Hunter breeders in the US to cross to her stallion.

I stand non European approved stallions, but they do have European brands on their butts, and I am VERY clear with both buyers and breeders, exactly what their options are for foal registration.

One of my stallions, I had the option to use either the Dutch or Belgian registry for him at birth. I chose the Belgians as they were closer. When I began to advertise my stallion as Belgian Warmblood, everyone coming to see him arrived expecting a draft cross horse. They thought that is what a Belgian Warmblood was.

He is not Belgian approved, so they won't issue even a CP for his offspring. The Dutch will, and his parents are both Dutch, so if the goal in advertising is to better tell people what they are coming to see and meet their expectations, it is actually more in line to call him what he is - a Dutch horse with Gelderlander and TB lines. Then they can better know what they are coming to see.

He has been very popular, and his breeders have been happy with the registration options on their foals.

[tri]

There are and has been a good number of very well bred and purpose bred TBs that do not have JC papers and who I would think it would be an absolute SHAME to have them registered with a euro wb registry. Some that come to mind are from the Blue Murmor lines and the Twist lines. People bred some of these horses specifically for hunters, used AI and therefor were NOT eligible for JC papers. However, they would be welcome any day in my barn and many are much nicer that most wbs I see paraded around as "premium" horses.

I would HATE to see these old, proven, top of the line hunter mares that are AMERICAN be turned into a "european" product with their foals. What a travesty.