Experience w/Black Country or Fhoenix Dressage Saddles

[GreyDes]

I'm starting to look for a dressage saddle for my three-year old Arab gelding. We're just starting him under saddle, so I've got a few months to figure out what I want, and thought I'd ask the experts here for advice.

The horse - He's a typical Arab - wide shoulders, short back and no withers :)

The rider - I'm about 5'6", 30" inseam, 160 pounds. In general, I like a moderate seat and smaller thigh blocks (I don't like the locked-in feeling with a really deep seat and big blocks). I currently use an Ansur treeless (Carleton) on my 23 year-old Arab, but am looking for something with more lateral stability for my greenie.

Goals - Lower level dressage (would like to take him to 2nd/3rd level) and trail riding. We'll also do some low level eventing, but I don't plan to start to jump him for at least another year, so that's a different discussion.

The two saddles I'm interested in are the Black Country (particularly like the looks of the Vinici), and the Fhoenix soft tree (particularly like the Vogue).

Does anyone have experience - good, bad or ugly - with these brands/models, or do you have additional recommendations?

Thanks in advance!

[KnightShade]

We ordered a custom Black Country for our little Paint mare last year, due to her having some back pain issues. I don't think it cost anything extra to submit tracings through the saddle fitter to get a custom fit, and there were a variety of color & finish options. We bought an all-purpose model, but it is absolutely gorgeous and we love it! It's like riding on air, very comfortable, and our horse no longer has any issues with her back. I thought it was just as high-quality as a County but for about $1000 less, and highly recommend them as a brand.


Julie

[Dawn J-L]

After nearly ten years of riding in an Ansur Classic because I couldn't find any saddle that fit when I bought my first Arabian, I now ride my Arabians in a Black Country Eloquence X which has a hoop tree that is shaped specifically for a wide flat back. I had it customized to have the flaps to fit my leg, i my choice of leather, and with upswept panels (rather than gussetted) to better fit their short backs. I LOVE this saddle. (It arrived three weeks after I placed the order, cost less than comparable quality saddles, and is very well constructed!)

[InsideLeg2OutsideRein]

Firstly good luck with your saddle search. I just went through the same thing for my high-withered, problem-back TB. I looked into the treeless saddles as well, but due to mainly two reasons I did not go for one: 1) while they claim that even weight distribution is not an issue, they only offer anecdotal evidence and no measured data (even when individually contacted and asked), and my horse's chiro also did not think they were a good idea for my horse (although she stated that *some* horses in fact do well in them). 2) Stirrup usage -- you shouldn't post or be in two-point - or use the stirrups to mount as the points of the bars will inflict pressure. Well, those things are basically what I use stirrups for, and it's what I'd expect of a saddle.

Someone on another equestrian site suggested to look into www.wowsaddles.com, a modular saddle made with a patented tree that is laterally flexible and longitudinally stable and a whole BUNCH of indiviudally exchangeable features that is quite amazing for a non-custom prize. I did a lot more research and ended up ordering one of theirs, but haven't received it yet, so can't tell you whether that was a good idea or not : ).

[GreyDes]

Dawn J-L - YES, that is exactly why I ended up buying the Ansur. My guy was such a BEAR to find anything that would fit, and I know I'll have the same problem with my three year old, because they have very similar builds.

I would say I like the Ansur saddle, but don't love it enough to buy another, and while I COULD use it on my new guy, I really want something that's more stable side to side.

InsideLeg - Yes, the lack of data bugs me too. I have heard that they work better for wide, flat back horses (which is exactly what I have) and my guy does seem comfortable in his. I never heard that you shouldn't post or two-point. I routinely do both :)

The wowsaddles look interesting. Can you post something when you get yours?

[Ambrey]

Just another idea- Schleese has a short, swept back point and is very adjustable in terms of both width and angle. It also has a very wide channel. It's been a great fit for my mutton withered, wide shouldered super wide load.

This photo shows the tree points, how they are back behind his shoulder.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x182/estarianne/IMG_0218-1.jpg

[islandrider]

If you are at all interested in staying treeless I would highly recommend the Startrekk Dressage. The panels are full and flocked, offers a perfect dressage position, and it is cheaper than the Fhoenix or Vogue. I've seen two out of 3 horses have probs with the edges of the panels on the Heather Moffet saddles- oops, make that 3 out of 3. One, Fhoenix, and 3, a big TW, probs with the Vogue. In the last case tho they were able to mitigate the probs with a suberpad.

[KnightShade]

I would also recommend Arabian Saddle Company, for obvious reasons, although the cost may be higher.

[pintopiaffe]

My Princeness and the Pea stallion ADORES the Fhoenix and progressed further in the first year with it than he had in the previous 4 or 5 years and 8 saddles. He kept outgrowing trees as he'd progress and build muscle, and nothing off the shelf fit him--or if they fit him, they didn't work for my wonky hip and sciatica. I will say Duetts came wide enough to 'fit' him, and probably could've been adapted with Flair (he likes Flair) but don't work for me.

The problem is not just the super wide-flat back, but the very long, laid back scapular, and then the fact that he's over all small. (um, and I'm not.)

I did very, very well in the Fhoenix too, until he put on even MORE topline and it simply became inordinately painful for me. :cry:

I very much liked the StarTrekk I had briefly, and with the widest tree arch (had to order from Germany, no one here had one) was *almost* wide enough. Had to sell it due to family illness. The model has changed, I have not been able to try the new model.

I really, really liked the Fhoenix. For therapeutic riding/special students it is like the most wonderful back protection you can imagine. The horses are far less fatigued by the imbalances and lack of muscle strength. Very good stuff.

I haven't kept up with the news and following the EE stuff, and wonder if there are more than one or two folks doing FEI in them yet. Anyone competing? As movement gets bigger and changes of aids faster *I* tend to want a more shallow seat. The Fhoenix was super deep and supportive, at some point that can become a liability, even though lower levels it can be a tremendous asset. I think there is bias at upper levels against treeless, but some of it may be based on experience.

I currently ride His Princness and the Pea in an Ancient Passier, stuffed to be 'squishy' in the panels, with a sheepskin pad and thinline. He is as happy in that combo as in the Fhoenix--which speaks volumes, because his movement in the Fhoenix was the best EVER. He's never nappy, but his willingness to come completely through is measurable. Things can 'fit' and still he can be not happy *enough* in movement. When it's right, it is very, very easy.

My theory is that really good riders can ride in anything... they ride through it and suck the horse's back up. Crap riders like myself need every technical advantage we can get in our equipment, to ALLOW the horse's back to come up, and make up for the lack of skill. ;)

[GreyDes]

Thanks for the suggestions - definitely some food for thought.

I did sit in an Arabian dressage saddle, and found it put me in a chair seat. It may have just been the model (can't remember which one I tried), but I couldn't get my legs under me.

I'll take a look at the Schleese - anyone have experience getting them adjusted? Does it really work, or do you still end up switching saddles as your horse changes shape?

Here's the saddle I'm riding in now. https://www.ansursaddle.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=4

I'm not sure I want to go much deeper in the seat - I'm with pintopiaffe on that!

[Ambrey]

The schleese adjustments are amazing as long as you get a good fitter. They can adjust the tree AND reflock them on the spot.

[Lieslot]

Schleese's fitting program is expensive though. They kind of want you to go on their program right?
Their adjustments are like triple as expensive as any regular saddle adjustment job.
My saddler put a few on my horses' back, but I did not like them, but I guess I'll be the only one out here disliking them.
And 5k for a saddle I find really a lot.

I've seen two out of 3 horses have probs with the edges of the panels on the Heather Moffet saddles- oops, make that 3 out of 3. One, Fhoenix, and 3, a big TW, probs with the Vogue. In the last case tho they were able to mitigate the probs with a suberpad. So where exactly were the pressure points? The inside edges of the gullet/channel then? How did they find out that this was the problem area, how did the horses react? Were they pressure tested with impression pad?
I'm really interesting as I'm waiting on the new model of Vogue. So then I know what exactly to look for when testriding.
I'm really surprised as I searched and contacted a lot of Vogue owner people back in the UK and have had nothing but great feedback, hence my enthousiasm in getting one as soon Heather let's me know the version is out.

[Ambrey]

Their program isn't cheap, but you don't have to buy a saddle through them. They are readily available used, then you can take it to a fitting clinic.

I don't think the actual fitting is that expensive. What is expensive is that they have clinics and you have to ship out to them.

[celeste08]

I can't comment on these 2 brands but I just received a WOW bought on e-bay and extra panels that I got from the manufacturer. I love the seat of the saddle. Very soft and comfy and with a medium twist that is just right for me. I am not comfortable on very narrow twisted saddles. My new little arabian stallion has shown a completely new way of moving in it. He comes up so much it is unbelievable. But the saddle has tendency to shift laterally at the canter which maybe caused by the panel configuration. I have the original flair panels that came with it and will play with them this week end to see if that helps. I really think the flexibility this saddle offers in the front allows the horses a new level of freedom in the shoulders. If you can get a good WOW fitter to come it may really be worth trying. But the saddle is so modular it can in way work against you without proper advice/help. Just my 2 cents....

[Ames]

I didnt' read the rseponses, but I own a vinici and did own a fhoenix (had ridden in an ansur classic and carlton as well). LOVED the fhoenix, but since my boy is table topped I got to a point where I was riding on the back of my thighs and was not around him. In steps the vinici. Of any treed saddle I've put on his back (and with no exaggeration I can tell you we have tried upwards of 25 saddles in the past 5 years), this one has been the best. I've owned it for 2 years and that is a record for us. Horse is moving well I love the saddle and everyone who sits in it says it's the most comfy thing ever.

Would recommend it in a heartbeat! Plus, they will make custom changes. I had the knee flaps moved forward a half inch so I wouldn't have to go up a half seat size :)

[GreyDes]

Ames - Can you tell me why you ended up on the back of your thighs with the Fhoenix? My boy isn't a complete table back, but he has no withers, so I have a feeling I'd be in a similar position :)

[eventer_mi]

I used to have a Fhoenix, and really didn't care for it. I've also sat in an Ansur, and while I initially liked it (slick, though), I stopped liking it when my mutton withered horse didn't want to lift his back into the canter. Big diff in the trot, though.

I liked the Fhoenix okay on my Paint, who is tolerant of most anything and doesn't really care what you stick on his back, but I had a h#ll of a time getting it to sit level on my very uphill Trak. I tried different pads, but they just served to make the saddle more unstable, so I gave up and kept my Isabell, which both horses like, and sold the Fhoenix.

My experience, along with other peoples, in the treeless saddles is that horses start off liking them initially, and then the horses stop improving and then they go downhill. I have to wonder how much of that initial "liking" of the horse has to do with the relief of the original saddle's pressure points, and then new ones are created due to the lack of stability (tree), and thus the cycle begins anew. My perch cross really loved the saddle (Ansur) at first, and then after about a month started being very twitchy in his withers and reluctant to pick up the canter, and started diving into it. I know these saddles are supposed to be better on the muttony guys, but my guy had mutton withers and he still didn't care for it.

I'd go with a treed saddle every time. There's a good reason why 99% of upper level riders don't ride in a treeless, and why the treed saddle was invented in the first place. I've had two years, going on three, of success with using a Corrector pad (www.thecorrector.net (http://www.thecorrector.net)) and my horses are pain free in their backs, as confirmed by my bodywork guy, who works on most of the BNTs horses around here in Southern Pines.

[petitefilly]

Can't say enough about my Black Country. Comfy, puts you the correct position, and works for years with nary a problem. I LUV mine.

[baymare]

I am currently working with a fitter to make up a Black Country for a wide bodied pony who also is also a tad croup high. So far I have sat in about eight different saddles on our quest to find one that does not slide up her neck the moment she takes a step forward. The Black Country's are closest to a fit "out of the box", and are amazingly comfortable, well-made saddles. By playing a few games with the panels and billet placement, we hope to get a fit. I am amazed by how willing they are to work with you and your horse to get it right, without charging through the nose.

Also, last year I got a Frank Baines dressage saddle off e-bay (joyful day!) for my wide paint gelding. It is a fabulous saddle, and I especially love it because it does not wedge me into place but just offers an inviting, comfortable place to sit. I feel very secure in it but not at all "stuck" the way I have in other dressage saddles. You might check these saddles out-- they come in many tree configurations.

[Daydream Believer]

I have a Fhoenix and absolutely love it. I have not found a horse yet that I've used it on that did not go well in it. It is also the most comfortable saddle I've ever sat in.

[Ames]

GreyDes - I think it's b/c I'm fat :) LOL - I have ample thighs, but I'm VERY long legged and my boy is table backed so while the saddle fit him beautifully, and I loved it, I had nothing to sit "around" - instead, I sat "on" him. I need the artificial tree in order to open my hips up, otherwise it is a bit like sitting on a chair seat (on, not in!) with your legs in the correct position. It made it difficult for me to be effective and I was not able to sit on my seat bones.

This is not a criticism of the saddle at all as I LOVED it, but just that for a horse who is broad in the back and then tapers quickly, I don't think it will help the rider at all.

The BC is amazing. Can't say enough good things about it. Workmanship, quality, comfort - like I said, I've ahd the saddle for 2 years now and that's a record for me and this horse :)

[grayarabpony]

2) Stirrup usage -- you shouldn't post or be in two-point - or use the stirrups to mount as the points of the bars will inflict pressure. Well, those things are basically what I use stirrups for, and it's what I'd expect of a saddle.

Someone on another equestrian site suggested to look into www.wowsaddles.com, a modular saddle made with a patented tree that is laterally flexible and longitudinally stable and a whole BUNCH of indiviudally exchangeable features that is quite amazing for a non-custom prize. I did a lot more research and ended up ordering one of theirs, but haven't received it yet, so can't tell you whether that was a good idea or not : ).

Re: the first paragraph: Are you serious?! I am thinking of looking into treeless too, and if that's the case, the option of treeless is out.

The wowsaddles sound intriguing...

[pandorasboxx]

Originally Posted by InsideLeg2OutsideRein View Post
2) Stirrup usage -- you shouldn't post or be in two-point - or use the stirrups to mount as the points of the bars will inflict pressure. Well, those things are basically what I use stirrups for, and it's what I'd expect of a saddle.

Not true. I ride endurance in a treeless saddle and absolutely post or two point many a time over 50 miles and even mount from the ground. If you want accurate information on treeless saddles, go to the yahoo treeless saddles group. There are dressage riders on that list as well as many other disciplines represented.

[grayarabpony]

Oh good. Thanks. I will check that out.

[Lieslot]

Heather Moffet did extensive PLIP-testing as well as Port Lewis Impression pad testing on her saddles, Barefoot saddles & treed saddles.

And the pressure points of stirrups attachment & posting the trot were not there, just as they were not there with treed saddles.

Some treed saddles actually performed very badly fwiw.
It was noted however that a lot depended on the rider. A balanced rider, irrespective of the rider's weight showed better pressure distribution in both treeless & treed.

[pintopiaffe]

just that for a horse who is broad in the back and then tapers quickly, I don't think it will help the rider at all.

:yes: and :yes:

For the very broad horse who is still essential 'pear' shaped--i.e. is wider or as wide below the knee, or at least below mid-thigh, than above it, it's amazing. For the horse that is positively flat on top, but then either small in the barrel or curves back in in a place your leg just doesn't bend... ouch. :(

Something I found interesting about Heather's earlier saddles is she developed them to help the 'average' rider. Bigger/higher thigh blocks and seats designed to aid position. As I've veeeeeeerrrrryy slooooooooooooooowly progressed the last two years or so, I find some 'helps' to be a hinderance. OTOH--when I first get on again after this almost-6-month hiatus, I will probably appreciate a deeper seat and something to dig into with knees during 'expressions of talent', at least until I get some strength and fitness back. I've *always* preferred an AP/GP for starting youngsters for just that reason. Stirrups up a notch or two, and some 'forward support.'

[Ames]

you nailed it pinto :) of course, when I bought the saddle, the horse wasn't in as good a shape as he is now, so he was nicely rounded throughout, but after we got his diet and exercise under control his inner sveltness showed up and the saddle didn't work for his rider. Who, by the way, is still wishing for her inner sveltness to show up. It's taking a long time...... ;) ;)