Any Hanoverian pedigree gurus around?

[vineyridge]

I've been doing some digging from allbreedpedigree.com into Hanoverian lines.

It looks to me as if there were two foundation sires around 1890, both from TB sires. One is Alnok, and the other is King. Alnok is tail male to Stockwell, one of Pocahontas's great sons. King is tail male to King Tom, another of Pocahontas's great sons. In looking through other pedigrees, I don't seem to see the same emphasis on bringing those lines back into Hanoverians, although they are pretty much dead tail male in TBs, as in bringing back the Dark Ronald influence. There does seem to be an emphasis on the Stockwell sirelines through other stallions at the turn of the 19th century. Around 1900, there were quite a few close crosses between Alnok lines and King lines. That would, of course, concentrate the Pocahontas.

Are crosses between those two lines sought after in the modern world? IIRC, there may be one living Stockwell tail male line, and but right now I can't remember who it is.

[vineyridge]

Bump.

[Portia]

I am most certainly not a Hanoverian pedigree guru. I have read about Hanoverian breeding history, though, and owned a few Hanos and boarded at a Hano breeding farm for many years. So, in other words, my opinion and a $1.50 will get you a small cup of coffee at Starbucks. ;)

But, FWIW, I honestly don't think the vast majority of people ever look that far back in making their breeding decisions. Also, with the Hanoverians, like with most other WBs, there are so many other regions/registries represented in a single modern pedigree, it would be difficult to follow the influence of a particular older line -- much more difficult than in TBs, I think.

Example, my mare is by Pikadero. I know about Pik Bube and Pik Koenig and Pik As -- a TB. I know Pik As goes back to Ferro XX and Dark Ronald, and to the great Trak stallion Abglanz, but don't know much of anything beyond that. Nor do I really care, except out of curiosity, since I feel that the influence going that far back is very diluted for the product my mare is producing now. She has Poaching XX and Patronage XX on her dam line in that same generation as Pik As, so they would have as much influence as he does. There's Holsteiner, Trakehner, Westfalen, and other TBs in there too. :)

Although now that you mention it, I see that Pik Bube's dam line goes back to Futurist I, whose sire Flak goes back to King twice. And Ferro goes back twice to Cherry Dutchess, who was by the Duke, who was by Stockwell, who was out of Pocahontas. :)

[selah]

Per Portia:
Example, my mare is by Pikadero. I know about Pik Bube and Pik Koenig and Pik As -- a TB. I know Pik As goes back to Ferro and to the great Trak stallion Abglanz, but don't know much of anything beyond that. Nor do I really care, except out of curiosity, since I feel that the influence going that far back is very diluted for the product my mare is producing now.


I am certainly no guru either (to put it mildly!)...but I find the whole subject to be absolutely fascinating!

For example, just looking at Pik As in the pedigree...Pik As has 19 crosses to Galopin (considered to have excellent conformation and outstanding movement) and 19 crosses to Stockwell (considered a champion sire) to name just two of a list of multiple crosses.

That $1.50 cup of coffee is nice in the morning. Multiply it by 19, and I'm out alot more money, awake for three days, and may be in danger of heart palpitations from the caffiene:D

[Portia]

Selah, as you can see, I too got caught up in the pedigree database after I first posted. :) And I'm afraid I could use the caffeine from all those cups of coffee staying up all day and all night searching around and finding out all about the ancestors, all the way back to the Darley Arabian!

[selah]

Selah, as you can see, I too got caught up in the pedigree database after I first posted. :) And I'm afraid I could use the caffeine from all those cups of coffee staying up all day and all night searching around and finding out all about the ancestors, all the way back to the Darley Arabian!



:lol:Cheers!:lol:

[MagicRoseFarm]

we always look to this TB blood in our own pedigrees, I want at least 12% or MORE total of St Simon, Galopin, Alnok,King and Teddy ( from a Bay Ronald x Bend Or Mare and with Galopin and Stockwell Linebreeding).. I have noticed that literally ALL of my best horses have a combination contributing about 20% of their entire ancestry to theseTBS.

Unfortunately many do not go past the 4th or 5th generation, so do not know of the early influences on their programs.

I know that Not Again pays serious attention to this also, and hopefully she will comment, as she is much more versed on the topic.

on the topic of Abglanz, more than 10% of ALL the top 200 ( by USEF) 3'6" and up hunters in the US for the past 5 years ( and I am sure there are significant numbers among WB and ccrosses for at least 10- 15 years, but I cannot prove it) have significant amounts of Absatz/Abglanz blood.. this is a LOW estimate , as it is literally impossible to trace the marelines of performance horses here in the US

my best foundation mare's 12 generation pedigree Alpenglow (http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10449309&blood=10&quota=) ( however this is incomplete and does not include the mare family which I would love to find) Alpenglow was crippled before her mare inspection, but her full sister was highest scoring mare inspected by the AHS in North America that year.

I have three daughters in my breeding program now.

[Portia]

So of course I now had to go back and check my 6 year old Hano gelding's pedigree. He goes back to Abglanz on both sides -- twice through his sire Davignport and through his dam line through Darling. His dam is by Lemon XX, who goes back to Dark Ronald and Teddy several times each, and to Ferro, and to Rabelais, whose dam line goes back twice to Stockwell and whose sire was St. Simon, whose dam sire was King Tom.

Someone stop me.

[vineyridge]

Here is a JC pedigree for a 1945 Miss Mirth. If you wanted to be sure that she was the right one, you could order a progeny report from Equineline.

http://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pedigree.cfm?page_state=ORDER_AND_CONFIRM&reference_number=319694&registry=T&horse_name=Miss%20Mirth&dam_name=Irish%20Mirth&foaling_year=1945

[vineyridge]

So of course I now had to go back and check my 6 year old Hano gelding's pedigree. He goes back to Abglanz on both sides -- twice through his sire Davignport and through his dam line through Darling. His dam is by Lemon XX, who goes back to Dark Ronald and Teddy several times each, and to Ferro, and to Rabelais, whose dam line goes back twice to Stockwell and whose sire was St. Simon, whose dam sire was King Tom.

Someone stop me.
Keep digging. Davignport has so much Stockwell it will surprise you. Even at this late date, he is 4% Alnok, with a total of 74 crosses in 12 generations. He is also 2.9% King. Add to that The Devil's Own, Stockwell. There probably are more tail male Stockwell sires in WB breeding than in all of TB land.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=56485&blood=10&quota=double

Fling is heavily King. I think Flint was his full brother. Alderman I was sired by Alnok. Even though Abglanz was a Trakehner, he is 5.1% Pocahontas through both sons and daughters. I think he has 4 different Pocahontas offspring in his lines.

[Carrera]

I thought that this link might be interesting

http://www.desertspringranch.com/bloodlines.htm#Abglanz

Neat to see that my boy goes back to Stockwell and has these lines too!

[MagicRoseFarm]

WOW Viney TY TY for helping me fill in the holes for Alpenglow,it even added mroe of this blood to her pedigree.

Here is the link to her Davignport daughter's pedigree which should interest you. This mare is probably my best producer.


Davigna MRF (http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10449310&blood=10&quota=)

:)

[vineyridge]

Semper Idem on the Desert Ranch site is damsire line King Tom. And he's a Trakehner.

The TB line that is tail male to Stockwell that might still survive is Chanteur. One of his grandsons was the great British eventing sire Ben Faerie. It's possible that there might be some British intact British sport horse sires who are sireline Ben Faerie. Might be an interesting cross into German WB lines if there is. I know Ben Faerie is damsire to Primmore's Pride, Pippa Funnell's great eventing horse with whom she won Rolex and the Rolex Triple Crown of eventing.

[Tasker]

Digging around in Hanoverian & Oldenburg pedigrees is my 'project'!! :) The nicks & proven crosses of what worked plus the assignment of certain stallions to specific regions in the past in Hannover is my entertainment on many winter nights...

Looking at the various foal crops we have here on the farm from Wally - their consistency (appearance, movement & minds) is rather astonishing _until_ I take a peek at his pedigree - http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=704328&blood=10&quota= then it all makes sense! Those traits were reinforced generation after generation with horses that worked at a high level.

Then when you add in our Abundance/TB descendants...well, it makes my headache in some respects but it is so very, very cool!!! Their similarities are wonderful in so many, many ways...and if they are naughty you can blame one side of the pedigree more than another! :lol: :winkgrin:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10451770&blood=10&quota=
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10479397&blood=10&quota=
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10451735&blood=10&quota=
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10451761&blood=10&quota=
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10451772&blood=10&quota= (this mare's offspring are the MOST elastic horses we've ever bred...regardless of sire. Then again, she is beyond linebred a few generations back...) :eek:

This is a daughter out of our little TB mare - http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10451731&blood=10&quota= and her athleticism makes perfect sense when studying the multiple crosses to Bay Ronald, etc... Ditto for the Wallstreet Kid daughter's offspring - http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10451779&blood=10&quota=

The durability of the 'old fashioned' horses is another big plus...but I really like being able to retire them in their mid-20's still sound & hale. :)

I have a Dahlwitz mare (http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10452684&blood=10&quota= ) and I'm itching to breed her just once to Wally. While she has her opinions about the world (total diva), she is a hard worker and really gifted as a riding horse in the upper level work. It is a completely out-of-fashion breeding but the qualities that I like best in her are also those that I hold so highly in Wally.... But her age is working against me, I'm afraid. :sigh: If it did work out, this would be the foal - http://www.sporthorse-data.com/dbtestmating.php?&sireid=704328&damid=10452684

Planning the next generation is really a whole 'nother post...I fear I've babbled on long enough but this topic is one of my passions in life.

[vineyridge]

WOW Viney TY TY for helping me fill in the holes for Alpenglow,it even added mroe of this blood to her pedigree.

Here is the link to her Davignport daughter's pedigree which should interest you. This mare is probably my best producer.


Davigna MRF (http://%5Burl%5Dhttp://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10449310&blood=10&quota=%5B/url%5D)

:)

Here is the rest of the pedigree. Eliza Russell is from very strong American lines for generations.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/irish+wit

[3Dogs]

How far back makes a difference? I mean, I have a colt I can trace back through sire to a Byerley Turc mare - waay back (and your Gainsborough and Hyperion Viney) - fact is, I find TBs multi-generations back in both my Hanoverians and my Oldenburg - but we know they started introducing TB blood - WW the influence -

What DOES it mean?

[Portia]

Turns out in addition to her ancestors on Pikadero's side, the REAL Portia's dam sire (Robber King XX) line goes back a huge number of times several times to Stockwell and King Tom as well, through St. Simon and his son Chaucer, Bend Or, the mare Bromus, and others. There's also a lot of Birdcatcher, Galopin, and Touchstone.

Interestingly, though, it looks like there's little of it in Torino, the KWPN stallion who sired her two foals to date. Some through Cottage Son (who had Rock Sand on both sides) and Dark Ronald, but that's about it.

But I'm with 3Dogs, what does it all mean now?

[vineyridge]

I agree with Tasker that the reinforcing of successful lines over and over through generations is the key to breeding. In planning, especially if you are using TB mares on the bottom, finding the connecting lines to the sire possibilities improves your chances of bringing those influences into the foal.

I've said before that I'm a strong believer in linebreeding, and 2x3 crosses don't offend me at all. The more you reduce the number of ancestors, the more likely you are reproduce them. If you breed a horse who is 5% Pocahontas, even though she was born in 1837, to a mare who is also 5% Pocahontas, the resulting offspring will have the equivalent of Pocahontas in the 4th or 5th generation. Pocahontas is TB ff 3-m. Same linebreeding to increase or retain the percentage of a remote ancestor would apply to Teddy or Bay Ronald in WBs or TBs.

I've had a feeling for a while that there is a breeding affinity between TB FFs 2, 16, and 8. Turns out that they share one of two variants of what is now described as MtDNA Haplotype F. So its just possible that the affinity exists and might be based on that genetic similarity in the mitochondria.

[3Dogs]

:lol:Jaysus Viney - I am a doctor and I couldn't follow all that genetic lineage:D
Frankly, don't have a clue what all that meant. In practical terms, what does all this lineage mean in terms of performance? Bring it up to recent history...
\So, what lines up CLOSE mean performance - from a TB perspective??

[PineTreeFarm]

.

The more you reduce the number of ancestors, the more likely you are reproduce them. If you breed a horse who is 5% Pocahontas, even though she was born in 1837, to a mare who is also 5% Pocahontas, the resulting offspring will have the equivalent of Pocahontas in the 4th or 5th generation.

I've had a feeling for a while that there is a breeding affinity between TB FFs 2, 16, and 8. Turns out that they share one of two variants of what is now described as MtDNA Haplotype F. So its just possible that the affinity exists and might be based on that genetic similarity in the mitochondria.

Isn't the Pocahontas 5% discussion a little irrelevant? It's pretty doubtful that you'd find a horse with Pocahontas in the 5th today. Even if you did, that's, 3.125%? So if you bred two horses with Pocahontas in the 5th the offspring still has 3.125%. If Pocahontas is on only one side of the pedigree then you are down to 1.5x% approximately. You'd need to find horses with 8 or more lines from her to make much of a difference in breeding forward.

TBHeritage has a long article on Female Families and possible errors based on modern research. Here's a link to one of the sections:
http://www.tbheritage.com/GeneticMarkers/mtdnaintbdamlines2.html

The research they have included on their site suggests that FF's 1,2,7,8,16,17,22 have the F variant and 1,16 have both F , H.
So maybe the entire FF break outs are incorrect to start with. I hope more research is done to sort this out.

[MagicRoseFarm]

In practical terms, what does all this lineage mean in terms of performance?

I am not so versed but , in layman terms, a horse with NO linebreeding ( duplicates in the first 5 generations) can be as closely bred by sheer percentages.

Our mare Alpenglow (http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10449309&blood=10&quota=) is a perfect example in that she has ZERO linebreeding , until you go to the 6th thru 12th generation... then ...8 horses make up about 70% of her pedigree, and four of those are closely related, and related to another two or three of the remainder of her pedigree.


How does it relate to performance? These lines have proven themselves in performance AND breeding for over 100 years.. Having these same few horses 300 times in a pedigree is similar to having one horse in the third (or so) generation repeated.

Alpenglow was an incredible producer, including 5 FEI Dressage horses,( she herself was a hunter before an injury ended her career) and others who could have made top performance horses but were kept for breeding stock.

[vineyridge]

PTF, the great Trakehner stallion Abglanz is over 5% Pocahontas. He is repeated a lot in modern WB pedigrees, often many times. Every time he's repeated he brings the Pocahontas percentage back up--maybe not to the full five percent, but up.

About the MtDNA, there is a place called GenBank that publishes the actual mapped out haplotype sequences. What I was talking about with 2, 8, and 16 is a variation in certain indels (I hope I've got the terminology right) that the 2002 study talked about in TB Heritage did not discover. It's in a place they didn't map. There has been a lot more research done, and there should be another paper in the next year or so. There is a thread, very interesting but hard for someone like me to understand, on the Pedigree Analysis Forum at Pedigree Query.

[PineTreeFarm]

PTF, the great Trakehner stallion Abglanz is over 5% Pocahontas. He is repeated a lot in modern WB pedigrees, often many times. Every time he's repeated he brings the Pocahontas percentage back up--maybe not to the full five percent, but up.

About the MtDNA, there is a place called GenBank that publishes the actual mapped out haplotype sequences. What I was talking about with 2, 8, and 16 is a variation in certain indels (I hope I've got the terminology right) that the 2002 study talked about in TB Heritage did not discover. It's in a place they didn't map. There has been a lot more research done, and there should be another paper in the next year or so. There is a thread, very interesting but hard for someone like me to understand, on the Pedigree Analysis Forum at Pedigree Query.

You'd need a LOT of Abglanz to get to 5% and it's so small that it's insignificant anyway.

In your earlier post you mentioned haplotype F and that's what is discussed in the TB Heritage article. But now it seems that you didn't mean haplotype but some other indicator? Do you have a link to an article discussing the 2002 study, I'd like to read more about it.

[grayarabpony]

So, what lines up CLOSE mean performance - from a TB perspective??


That's the million dollar question! Even with TBs from 20 years ago, the best known names show up 3 + generations back.

Personally, I don't think linebreeding is necessary to breed a good horse, especially considering that you're starting out with linebred horses. You can still concentrate jumping or dressage talent by crossing talented but relatively unrelated horses of similar type. I don't think there's anything wrong with proper linebreeding (3+ generations back), but there's more than one way to skin a cat. ;)

Since very often horses in the first 2 generations are a relative unknown for producing sport horses, I look to the 3rd-6th generations. And at the horse itself, because you never know what that individual inherited!

[vineyridge]

In your earlier post you mentioned haplotype F and that's what is discussed in the TB Heritage article. But now it seems that you didn't mean haplotype but some other indicator? Do you have a link to an article discussing the 2002 study, I'd like to read more about it.

Here is a link to the discussion on the Pedigree Query forum:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20832&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

The whole thing is worth reading, but when the experts on genetics start talking about what's going on now in the TB genetics world, it's even more interesting.

I think if you read it you will understand about why there are two variations of the F Haplotype that weren't discussed in the 2002 Hill, et al study.

[Equilibrium]

When talking about Galopin blood, I came across a daughter of this mare in an upcoming sale:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/gortroe+queen

Terri

[vineyridge]

I am a total idiot. A huge majority of TB stallions worldwide today are Phalaris line, and he is tail male to Stockwell. So almost every TB stud that is brought into WB breeding today brings in multiple lines to Stockwell and is probably sireline Stockwell.

[vineyridge]

OHHHH, Terri !! Be still my heart!! She is a TREASURE. How has she been as a producer? How did you find her? What sale? Are you thinking about buying her?

She's even tail female to Uganda!

But .... according to the pedigree you posted, she's a 1978 model. Surely you must be talking about a daughter or granddaughter that you found in the sales catalog.

Look at the pedigree of her daughter, Blackbushe Place. It's just as fine. Maybe finer. http://www.pedigreequery.com/blackbushe+place
Her breeder repeated three of the finest sport/chasing TB sires top and bottom. Wild Risk, Mossborough, and Herbager. Plus Sif is by Wild Risk's sire, and Prince Chevalier and Prince Bio were both sons of Prince Rose.

Me likee; me wantee. :(

[sniplover]

Here's a granddaughter via that daughter; http://www.pedigreequery.com/rajoe Adds in another line to Sicambre and Hyperion (and beyond that, I know nothing).

[vineyridge]

Lord Americo is equally well bred for sport. Lord Gayle was a truly great steeplechase sire, and things get even better as you descend on the sire. Vieux Manoir is even tail female to the great steeplechase dam, Queenie. He's also in lots of SF jumping horses, according to Bernard LeCortois. Not to mention being damsire line to Dollar, who is probably my favorite sport horse TB line of all time.
Sunny Boy is sireline to Teddy through Asterus and is the grandsire of Night and Day, who was an SF jumper sire.

Wish we could get some of those wonderfully bred Irish mares over here to use for sport horse breeding.

[Equilibrium]

Well as always, I'm going to the Feb NH sale to have a looksie. Arctic Lass is in foal to Milan and I'm not quite sure I need a pregnant mare, well need any horse! And the market is so crap, it's hard to say what she will go for. I really love the Lord Americo's. They always seem to be nice types.

Terri

[sniplover]

I love the things I learn on this board. Thank you to everyone who shares these little nuggets; I could get addicted to researching bloodlines so easily..

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Guys, you need to stop throwing around allocades willy nilly. Lord Gayle was not a "truly great steeplchase sire", he was a flat sire. He did sire Strong Gale, who is by anyone''s definition a truly great NH sire, one of the greatest, and he sired Lord Americo who ain't half bad either. But Lord Gayle himself was not a NH sire, his offspring were bred to run on the flat, and some with great distinction, including an Arc winner.

[vineyridge]

Sorry, Drvm. I guess I should have said sire of steeplechase sires. But he did pass through jumping ability, which might have come from Sir Gaylord, who is known for other sires who passed on jumping ability--like Sir Ivor, as just one example.

[Catsdorule-sigh]

I brought back a post of mine from a previous thread, edited a bit.
When it comes to Pocahontas, it's all over MOW's pedigree. So much so that I was surprised that MOW wasn't a bleeder- didn't Pocahontas pass that down too, or am I wrong with that? :confused: With this much of one mare in a pedigree, what does the percentage end up in MOW? I don't have the ability to figure that one out. Rock Sand is loaded with it and he figures in WB pedigrees via Cottage Son.

So, maybe the percentage isn't high, but when the concentration is that prolific, is there something at work besides percentages?

Previous post, edited:


Fair Play, his line was known for sport.

His sire, Hastings, was out of Cinderella. However bad tempered she was, her sire, if it was indeed Tomahawk, may hold a few clues.

Tomahawk was by King Tom who was out of Pocahontas.

Tomahawk’s dam, Mincemeat, was by Sweetmeat, the sire of Macaroni. Sweetmeat was out of Lollypop, a mare whose sire, Voltaire of the Galopin line and dam were both by Blacklock. Plus, and this was interesting, Ostina, the mare whose lines appear twice in Lady Langdon, dam of Hampton via herself and her full brother, is here as the dam line of Tomahawk.

Hastings had two prominent mares in his pedigree, Pocohontas and Agness, and in the dam line.

Fairy Gold, Fair Play’s dam, is tail male line of Birdcatcher through Bend Or, plus her sire brings back in Pocohontas and the full brothers, Selim and Castrel.

To Man O' War:

Mahubah, dam of Man O’ War. Her sire Rock Sand was tail mail to the Birdcatcher, two crosses of Pocohontas via Stockwell, and another from Rataplan, and a line of Newminster through Wenlock. Rock Sand’s dam brought in Galopin/Flying Dutchman, Pocohantas twice, and Newminster through Hermit.

Mahubah’s dam, Merry Token, brings in Newminster through Hampton, Melbourne and Pochontas again, at least twice, through Merry Hampton.

I am amazed at the amount of Pocohontas in MOW’s pedigree.

[vineyridge]

I thought Pocahontas was a roarer, not a bleeder. It's in her biography on TB Heritage.

Between these two races, Pocahontas changed hands, sold to Mr. William Theobald. Following the Cesarewitch, she showed some improvement, placing second in three more tests at four and five, including victory in one heat of a five furlong plate without taking the win. She'd shown some class, but in her nine starts, she'd been unable to win. Pocahontas may have been run over her head, but it may also be that her ability was compromised by being a "roarer," or "broken in the wind." This is a respiratory problem that in this case may have been passed down through the female line for at least three generations, as both Marpessa and her dam Clare were also said to be roarers.Pocahontas is everywhere in all TBs worldwide. And apparently WBs as well.

[Catsdorule-sigh]

Thanks Viney. Knew there was something with her.

[Olsonfarms]

:confused:How do you read these charts? What does the italic horse listings mean? I have added my filly to the data base but can't interpret what it all means. Here is a link to my filly, if you can help I would love it!
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10527803

Thanks,
Barbara

[vineyridge]

:confused:How do you read these charts? What does the italic horse listings mean? I have added my filly to the data base but can't interpret what it all means. Here is a link to my filly, if you can help I would love it!
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10527803

Thanks,
Barbara

In the double ancestor percentages, italics mean mares.

[Olsonfarms]

If someone could direct me to information that would explain these terms and meanings that would be great. I am enjoying this type of discussion but really don't have much of a knowledge base yet.

What does all of this mean?

Ancestor Loss 6 generations 1.59%
Ancestor Loss 9 generations 28.96%
Ancestor Loss 12 generations 66.73%
Double Coefficient 12 gen (line- or inbreeding) 24.38%
X-Double Coefficient 12 gen (inbreeding) 8.59%

Also what are the two listings per horse that have percentages listed that are 1/2 of the total percentage for each listing? The columns are not labeled.

Thanks,
Barbara

[Olsonfarms]

If someone could direct me to information that would explain these terms and meanings that would be great. I am enjoying this type of discussion but really don't have much of a knowledge base yet.

What does all of this mean?

Ancestor Loss 6 generations 1.59%
Ancestor Loss 9 generations 28.96%
Ancestor Loss 12 generations 66.73%
Double Coefficient 12 gen (line- or inbreeding) 24.38%
X-Double Coefficient 12 gen (inbreeding) 8.59%

Also what are the two listings per horse that have percentages listed that are 1/2 of the total percentage for each listing? The columns are not labeled.

Thanks,
Barbara

I was not clear in my previous question that I included in the above quote. This question was in reference to the sporthorse breed data base that others have been referring to in their discussion on this thread.

Thanks,
Barbara

[vineyridge]

If someone could direct me to information that would explain these terms and meanings that would be great. I am enjoying this type of discussion but really don't have much of a knowledge base yet.

What does all of this mean?Ancestor Loss 6 generations 1.59%
Ancestor Loss 9 generations 28.96%
Ancestor Loss 12 generations 66.73%
Double Coefficient 12 gen (line- or inbreeding) 24.38%
X-Double Coefficient 12 gen (inbreeding) 8.59% Also what are the two listings per horse that have percentages listed that are 1/2 of the total percentage for each listing? The columns are not labeled.

Thanks,
Barbara

I knew you were talking about The Sport Horse Breed database. :)

The two columns are males and females, I believe. The percentage of each sex descendant of the ancestor adding up to the full percent. Not sure though. I know two different colors indicates males and females.

Ancestor loss means how many individual horses are "lost" out of the total number in the 6th, 9th, and 12th generations. There are 64 ancestor slots in the 6th generation, and with no linebreeding 64 individual horses would appear. If there was one horse repeated up to that generation, there would only be 63 individuals, and the Ancestor loss would be 1.59%. Same with the number in the 9th and in the 12th. So by the time 4058 horse slots appear in the 12th generation, only 33.27% of the whole number are different horses. With this number the actual generation the horse appeared wouldn't matter.

At least that's what I believe those numbers mean.

The Co-efficients might refer to the co-efficient of inbreeding, which is explained here:
http://www.highflyer.supanet.com/coefficient.htm , although it seems rather like gibberish to my math challenged brain. The co-efficient of inbreeding takes the generation that the same individual appears in a pedigree into account in the calculation.
If it doesn't, it might refer to the percentage of times there are multiple instances of doubling in the 12 generation pedigree.

Double co-efficient is the number regardless of the sex of the individuals who are doubled in the pedigree. Double X co-efficient is applicable where the same individual shows up through both sons and daughters.

Perhaps there are some people who are both breeders and expert on these terms who would chime in and correct what are probably multiple misunderstandings on my part.

[Olsonfarms]

Thank you so much for your help. I would have posted several days ago but I couldn't stay logged in to the forum with each attempt to post! So I went to firefox and am having better luck.
Barbara:D