The difference between now and than !

[freestyle2music]

On another thread people were supprised about the differences in dressage
"now and than" .

So I have put up some more videos of the first worldcup qualifiers and finals 1986.

Pass the popcorn and open the winebottles;)

www.topdressage.tv

and click the buttons.

Worldcup Qualifiers
Worldcup Finals

[not again]

I have various vhs tapes from the 1986 world championships at Cedar Valley, Ont. Canada. They are fun history too.

[freestyle2music]

I have various vhs tapes from the 1986 world championships at Cedar Valley, Ont. Canada. They are fun history too.

Why don't you put them online ? I can give you acces to one of our videoblogs.

[lowroller]

Thank you for sharing,

(As a Canadian trapped in the U.S for a few days this week, it will be nice to have something fun to watch while I drink my morning coffee besides "inauguration countdown" on every TV channel - I like historical events as much as the next guy, but it would be nice if they covered at least one other news story worldwide...!"

[not again]

re. my tapes from 1986--what about copyrights? I am glad to share them especially since VHS ages and have the equipment to move them to digital; I just don't want to violate any rules.

[FriesianX]

OK... I'll bite - just to start off the firestorm:lol: While the halts seem more established THEN, in general, I see a lot of the same issues in 1986 that I see lambasted NOW.

I saw a few halts that didn't last long THEN. I saw crooked tempis, propping behind in the tempis, missed counts. I saw spooks and a horse or two that kicked out at the aids. I saw extended trots with more activity in front than behind, and a few where the horses were quite out behind (trailing hocks), even a few toe flips. I saw a few horses that came against the hand, shortened their necks, opened their mouths. I saw some lateral walks. I saw piaffe that was strained with very little activity (except for kicking, pumping riders) and some of it was not with a lowered croup. In short, I saw MUCH of the same things we see now. Horses are horses, riders are riders. Mistakes happen. There are less than ideal moments in every test. HOrses get tense, riders get tense, stuff happens.

In general, the horses NOW seem hotter. Therein lies a bit of the difference we talk about - hotter horses are ridden a bit differently. But overall, I don't believe the old days were perfect and the new days are evil.

[cnvh]

I'm no dressage expert, but the 1986 footage, at least to my (rather untrained) eye, the horses seemed much more relaxed, lighter, and fluid. Compared to the horses of 20 years ago, today's upper-level dressage horses look like linebackers. (Again, dressage newbie here!)

[Mike Matson]

I submit the evidence to the jury and rest my case. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKbqokuTzh8&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbLXpW5-DG0&feature=channel

[MelantheLLC]

Well obviously our problem in the US is that we don't have white-coated waiters serving tea and champagne to the spectators!

I hope we get right on this. I'll volunteer to test the new system. :winkgrin:

[slc2]

"I saw a few halts that didn't last long THEN. I saw crooked tempis, propping behind in the tempis, missed counts. I saw spooks and a horse or two that kicked out at the aids. I saw extended trots with more activity in front than behind, and a few where the horses were quite out behind (trailing hocks), even a few toe flips. I saw a few horses that came against the hand, shortened their necks, opened their mouths. I saw some lateral walks. I saw piaffe that was strained with very little activity (except for kicking, pumping riders) and some of it was not with a lowered croup. In short, I saw MUCH of the same things we see now."

Oh my goodness! A little bit of the Truth!

The emphasis changes a little, the differences are small. No one era is perfect or evile.

What I do recall quite strongly about 80's-late 80's is more leaping all over the saddle to get changes. That changed a lot, I think Kyrkland and several others really led the way on that one.

[Surviving the Dramas]

I submit the evidence to the jury and rest my case. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKbqokuTzh8&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbLXpW5-DG0&feature=channel

Very VERY interesting, because this was **cough** before I was born...

This GP test (#1) is VERY similar to the 2009 GPS. However, there has been emphasis placed on the pi/pa tour in the new test, with more passage required. This may explain why the horses now are more built than they were back then - the muscles required for the pi/pa are developing to be bigger, stronger etc to cope with the extra load being placed on them. I really love watching Klimke ride. Looking at Ahlerich he is not "the perfect horse" but through good training, he can still pull off a fab GPS. His canter work is much stronger than his trot work, and his Pi certainly doesn't look as flashy as the modern horses. However, all of his work is classically correct. I personally do not like Salinero, not for his rider or her training (which I won't go into), I just don't like the way he goes... that goodness I'm not a European judge :lol:

I also watched the Barcelona recap off Theo's site. Klaus Balkenhol, who I wouldn't know from a bar of soap, has made his name as a great trainer, however, his riding seemed very strong to me, and his horse was certainly not a fancy pants mover like you see today. The riding over all has improved IMO - I'm not talking about the training, I'm talking about the "sitting on the horse and looking pretty" which I can't help but think is a good thing for the sport. Watching riders throw their weight around to get the desired affect doesn't do it for me!

Back then the focus was more on the relaxed, obedient picture, rather than the horse that could fling its legs and do the tricks super expressive. I was impressed with Haddads ride on Cadillac as she appears to have returned to those roots of a relaxed, fluid horse, and I hope this may long continue on the World Dressage stage.

[Fixerupper]

What a wonderful trip down memory lane!
Interestingly - we seem to think that the baroque-type horses are new to international dressage - this clearly shows they are not...I particularly liked the Lipizzaner (?) from Yugoslavia with the roached mane.
Very fun, thank you.

[freestyle2music]

Very VERY interesting, because this was **cough** before I was born...

This GP test (#1) is VERY similar to the 2009 GPS. However, there has been emphasis placed on the pi/pa tour in the new test, with more passage required. This may explain why the horses now are more built than they were back then - the muscles required for the pi/pa are developing to be bigger, stronger etc to cope with the extra load being placed on them. I really love watching Klimke ride. Looking at Ahlerich he is not "the perfect horse" but through good training, he can still pull off a fab GPS. His canter work is much stronger than his trot work, and his Pi certainly doesn't look as flashy as the modern horses. However, all of his work is classically correct. I personally do not like Salinero, not for his rider or her training (which I won't go into), I just don't like the way he goes... that goodness I'm not a European judge :lol:

I also watched the Barcelona recap off Theo's site. Klaus Balkenhol, who I wouldn't know from a bar of soap, has made his name as a great trainer, however, his riding seemed very strong to me, and his horse was certainly not a fancy pants mover like you see today. The riding over all has improved IMO - I'm not talking about the training, I'm talking about the "sitting on the horse and looking pretty" which I can't help but think is a good thing for the sport. Watching riders throw their weight around to get the desired affect doesn't do it for me!

Back then the focus was more on the relaxed, obedient picture, rather than the horse that could fling its legs and do the tricks super expressive. I was impressed with Haddads ride on Cadillac as she appears to have returned to those roots of a relaxed, fluid horse, and I hope this may long continue on the World Dressage stage.

I agree with (parts of) your comments.

But the first ride of RK and Ahlerich was the GrandPrix Special ! and not the GrandPrix.

[cnvh]

The footage of Klimke and Ahlerich doing the (one-handed!) one-tempi changes makes me cry every time I see it. Beautiful, absolutely beautiful.

[msrobin]

What a wonderful trip down memory lane!
Interestingly - we seem to think that the baroque-type horses are new to international dressage - this clearly shows they are not...I particularly liked the Lipizzaner (?) from Yugoslavia with the roached mane.
Very fun, thank you.

I missed that one. Where is it. I got to see this mane :)


I agree that the horses today do look like linebackers, they appeared to be more light and easy going back in the day. I know one thing is that it is evolving into something but, I am not sure where it is going to end.

Alerich I could watch for hours, I just loved them. How about Marzog and Anne-Grethe Jensen. Just beautiful.
Here is a video of them
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYkruXcKkB0

And this one from 1960 of Josef Neckermann - Asbach
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5IKb5Cu2ok

Sergej Filatow - Absent an Akhal Teke this was in the 1950s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0_AS_YBFks&feature=channel
and a lovely piaffe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6QYTJrGwEo

[slc2]

Ahlerich would rival today's hottest horses for 'hot'. He was not at all a calm or quiet horse. Klimke wrote about the many challenges he faced with the horse in his book. He needed a lot of warmup and could be very difficult.

[freestyle2music]

Ahlerich would rival today's hottest horses for 'hot'. He was not at all a calm or quiet horse. Klimke wrote about the many challenges he faced with the horse in his book. He needed a lot of warmup and could be very difficult.


Did he also write in his book that he always was complaining to the competition organisers that there were to many horses in the training- and warmup ring.;)

[Fixerupper]

re the roached mane Lipizzaner

[quote=msrobin;3817088]I missed that one. Where is it. I got to see this mane :)

It is in the World Cup Final 1986 about 2/3 of the way through :)

[slc2]

"Did he also write in his book that he always was complaining to the competition organisers that there were to many horses in the training- and warmup ring"

I think he did everything he could to try and get those horses ready to go into the ring. I'm sure anyone else would do the same too, if they had any clout.

Why is it Theo that you have so little respect for this guy?

I mean, I hardly think he is the perfected boddhisatva like DEITY most people think he is, everyone has their faults, and I am pretty sure he actually was JUST a human being and as I recall he never actually got 10's on every single thing he did in any one ride, but no dutch riders ever have either. He did happen to win a few things in his day and his daughter seems to have learned at least a couple things from him...I have a feeling that was slightly more than random coincidence.

[freestyle2music]

"Did he also write in his book that he always was complaining to the competition organisers that there were to many horses in the training- and warmup ring"

Why is it Theo that you have so little respect for this guy?

I mean, I hardly think he is the perfected boddhisatva like DEITY most people think he is, everyone has their faults, and I am pretty sure he actually was JUST a human being and as I recall he never actually got 10's on every single thing he did in any one ride, but no dutch riders ever have either. He did happen to win a few things in his day and his daughter seems to have learned at least a couple things from him...I have a feeling that was slightly more than random coincidence.

Funny SLC2 that you always put words in my mouth. But this has become your middlename on this forum.:yes:

[slc2]

Not really. You're always saying negative stuff about this guy. It really does get tiresome though. Coby is this and Coby is that and blah blah blah and Reiner was so lousy. It gets tiresome.

[Surviving the Dramas]

Not really. You're always saying negative stuff about this guy. It really does get tiresome though. Coby is this and Coby is that and blah blah blah and Reiner was so lousy. It gets tiresome.

Funny you should say that because I haven't seen Theo spouting on about Coby recently, and I think (would hate to put words in his mouth) he has preferred to stay diplomatically silent about RK. It's exactly the same with any top riders, some love them, some hate them, some are indifferent. Name anyone at International level currently, Anky, Isabel, Kyra, Carl Hester, and thanks to the www you'll have fans, and people quite happy to rip them to shreds....

What gets tiresome is you jumping on Theo's posts and somehow making it personal...

[slc2]

Ok then I'll just agree with you all the time.:lol:

It's not 'personal' in the sense that he's picking on me individually, or in the sense that i'm disagreeing with him because he's theo. I just don't see it the way he says he does.

he may have a lot of inside poop on what reiner klimke did and said that makes the guy look unsavory, he may even delight in telling people that just because they persist in making the guy out to be some sort of God instead of a human. I think most people in fact, do a lot of stuff like what he's saying klimke did, we just don't hear about it.

I don't go for either extreme, either saying so and so rider is evil, horrible, etc OR a deity.

I'm sure most of the big time competitors throw their weight around...now and again...LOL.

[msrobin]

re the roached mane Lipizzaner

[quote=msrobin;3817088]I missed that one. Where is it. I got to see this mane :)

It is in the World Cup Final 1986 about 2/3 of the way through :)


Thanks I just watched him. Makes me wonder what drugs they were on to do that to his mane.
If your wondering here is a photo of the same horse with full mane it was gorgeous

http://marc.s5.net/images/maestoso.jpg

Gosh he was glorious!

[freestyle2music]

Ok then I'll just agree with you all the time.:lol:

It's not 'personal' in the sense that he's picking on me individually, or in the sense that i'm disagreeing with him because he's theo. I just don't see it the way he says he does.

he may have a lot of inside poop on what reiner klimke did and said that makes the guy look unsavory, he may even delight in telling people that just because they persist in making the guy out to be some sort of God instead of a human. I think most people in fact, do a lot of stuff like what he's saying klimke did, we just don't hear about it.

I don't go for either extreme, either saying so and so rider is evil, horrible, etc OR a deity.

I'm sure most of the big time competitors throw their weight around...now and again...LOL.


If you type a little less and read a little more you can find my post about Reiner (and his son) Klimke. You can like a rider but not his attitude.
And I was there when he demanded that the PSG riders left the training arena when the GrandPrix riders entered. Which was a little bit difficult in Den Bosch and Amsterdam with two competition arenas and one warming up arena, and the PSG at the same time as the GP.

[mbm]

overall i like the older rides far better. more harmony, more fluidity, more relaxation, more of a connection from tail to poll, more recycling of the energy -- and the coolest thing - it is absolutely apparent when a horse takes a HH and re balances.

i overall like the collection better in the "old days" -

and, this is going to be difficult to convey - but the feeling i get from the horses that actually have an open throatlatch/gullet/reaching for the bit/ not overflexed - and how that is connected to the hind legs..... yum. that is so exactly what i want to emmulate..... to me that i like seeing the best art in teh world... and the feeling/emotion that i experience when i see it is just great :)

it makes me a *very* happy camper,

:)

thanks again theo for posting these vids...... i could watch them all day... and i hope more get posted.

[Calif. native]

why does anyone here even READ slc's posts??? They chronically insense nearly everyone (she engages you all); I simply "ignore" them....makes for happier reading and keeps posts on track.

I personally think Theo is a wealth of information and thoroughly enjoy EVERYTHING he posts; in fact too bad he isn't in SoCal as I would like to have drinks and tell stories with him! Maybe I will see/meet him at Aachen this year (if I get there)....:winkgrin:

[slc2]

coincidentally, your posts 'insense' (sic) me too. :D

i read them though, just because it would be more expensive to go out and buy a baseball bat to hit myself with instead....

[Gucci Cowgirl]

don't you get that most people don't want to hear it anymore, slick?

we just don't believe you or your ridiculous stories.

[EASY RIDER STABLE]

I just can't take anymore of slc2's negativity. And it's always in such depth. Never has a nice thing to say about anything or anyone. My parents always told me that when dealing with someone like this try to find the good in them..well I can't and it seems like no one else can either. So i began to think, maybe this person isn't as knowledged as they say they are or maybe they're handicapped (mentally or physically) and this is their only outlet. Which left me actually feeling very sorry for them. SLC2 did in another thread this week admit that her mount is a Halflinger, so I'd luv to see her Halflinger performing all the GP movements with her @ss in the tack to perfection ! And to the nice Hlaflinger people out there, I actually like them alot and have one that we drive so I'm not bashing them in any way just this person.

[EASY RIDER STABLE]

So just an extra thanks again to theo for posting the links. It is pretty nifty to see horses like COCKTAIL and DONNERHALL. You can actually see why these horses made such incredible Stallions. They just OOZE class, conformation and obviously talent.

[freestyle2music]

Most of my US friends and clients always tell me that I am crazy spending so much time to serve people who will only take everything I say and all videos i post on this forum as a juicy bone to chew on and bash every rider, horse and trainer. But when I read the PM's and Emails i get from many of you and when i see on my hitcounter that people are spending houres watching these videos (even people who are tied to bed or are in the hospital). I don't let some sharks spoil the fun of so many nice people. People who don't have the acces to visit clinics, training or competitions like we have over here. It's sad enough that I have to moderate and censure so much videos because otherwise a new trainwreck is born.

But right now I am working on a solution to also post videos of clinics an trainingsession in which Dutch, Danish and German riders and trainers explain the benefits of their training system.

But it will be a closed circuit and only for people with an open and constructive mind ;)

Theo

[mbm]

honestly? why cant everyone just ignore those that bother them and take the high road instead of get into this petty and childish personal attacks etc?

that would make for a better world for sure :)

and theo - not to start a debate - but who gets to decide who is constructive? and how will that be decided?

[FancyFree]

even people who are tied to bed

:lol:

[siegi b.]

Back to Mike Matson's post with the link to Rainer Klimke's ride at the Olympics....

The ride seemed hectic to me with some poor transitions and the horse dying in one of the pi's. Also, I'm surprised nobody found anything wrong with the short reins.....

Just my opinion....

[swgarasu]

Most of my US friends and clients always tell me that I am crazy spending so much time to serve people who will only take everything I say and all videos i post on this forum as a juicy bone to chew on and bash every rider, horse and trainer.
Theo

Well, I thank you for the time you spend posting them.. I've enjoyed a lot of your videos and I know it's got to be a tremedous amount of work. I enjoyed these old videos as well.

[freestyle2music]

Quote: FancyFee
even people who are tied to bed


:lol:

This is exactly what I mean when I speak of childish behaviour.

When someboy sends me an Email : "Theo I am tied to my bed, because I broke my hip........bla...bla.............................. ........" I asume it's their way to use their words.

Maar de volgende keer zal ik gewoon zeggen "gekluisterd aan bed"

@ MBM

I think I hired the best moderator on the globe, so she decides :cool::yes:

[stolensilver]

Sorry if this is a daft question but how do we tell who each horse and rider are? So far I've watched the first pair in the world cup finals (a rather small plump white horse who made a big mess of his 1 tempis) but haven't a clue who it was. Is there a list somewhere? Please?

[Bugs-n-Frodo]

My respect does go to Dr. Klimke though when I was watching the one tempi changes in his victory lap. It was refreshing to see a rider ride those tempis without using their WHOLE body. I enjoy watching him sit there quietly and working with his horse. I hate the kicking and pumping, I hate to see riders make a huge effort to get a movement. It happens, I know and I am certainly not perfect but one of the things that attracted me to the sport of dressage many years ago was the appearance of horse and rider as one, neither making more effort than the other and the aids seemed invisible. My horse and I are working 1st level and EVEN at my low level (I don't plan on staying at the lower levels), I work hard appear as one with my horse. I try hard for clear communication with him, I do not want to have to "kick" him into a movement and if I find that happening, we work on it.

[stolensilver]

Having watched bits from most of the old World Cup final (thankyou Theo!) what struck me is how BIG many of those old warmbloods were. Their feet are like dinnerplates! And the riders look tiny on them. It was nice to see Wily Trout do his test. I have a big soft spot for TBs.

What struck me the most was the number of errors in the older tests at the start and end of movements. I think the standard has gone up in all areas, the quality of the horses, todays are much better moving than those from over 20 years ago and the consistency of the transitions within and between the movements which I'd put down to better training by the riders. Several of the horses at the 1986 final wouldn't have a hope of getting to the final now.

[FriesianX]

What struck me the most was the number of errors in the older tests at the start and end of movements. I think the standard has gone up in all areas, the quality of the horses, todays are much better moving than those from over 20 years ago and the consistency of the transitions within and between the movements which I'd put down to better training by the riders. Several of the horses at the 1986 final wouldn't have a hope of getting to the final now.

Yeah, I saw a lot of tense transitions - tight necks, even breaks in the gaits.

Sure, Klimke's ride had some lovely moments - in general, he is a lovely, diplomatic rider, no one would disagree there - but it wasn't perfect. The walk is lateral (perhaps a sign of Ahlric's tension that Klimke so artfully smooths over?), at one point, the piaffe appears to be headed backwards. We have some lovely riders today too, and in general, I have to agree, the rides of today are more polished, transitions are cleaner, riding is prettier, horses are more athletic. Klimke is a master, no doubt about it - but it isn't fair to hold up that riding ability as a representation of what EVERYONE looked like back then, and hold up Anky as what everyone looks like today! There were riders and horses with all levels of talent and ability back then, and riders and horses with all levels of talent and ability now.

It is fun to go back and see some of those rides, and no doubt, Klimke is fun to watch! But there are fun, tactful, lovely riders now too. Kyra is a gorgeous rider. Robert Dover is lovely to watch. I could go on and on - we have some lovely, talented, diplomatic riders now too. The "good ol' days" aren't better than "nowadays". And in general, I agree with the above post - many of those finalists back then wouldn't do as well now. Horses are fancier, we have access to more training, riding skills are advancing, we have better saddles, we know more about biomechanics, etc.

Dressage will advance and evolve, just like everything else does. Some will always yearn for the good ol days, others will learn from the good ol days, but add knowledge and build toward something even better.

[freestyle2music]

Having watched bits from most of the old World Cup final (thankyou Theo!) what struck me is how BIG many of those old warmbloods were. Their feet are like dinnerplates! And the riders look tiny on them. It was nice to see Wily Trout do his test. I have a big soft spot for TBs.

What struck me the most was the number of errors in the older tests at the start and end of movements. I think the standard has gone up in all areas, the quality of the horses, todays are much better moving than those from over 20 years ago and the consistency of the transitions within and between the movements which I'd put down to better training by the riders. Several of the horses at the 1986 final wouldn't have a hope of getting to the final now.

Thats why we see much more injured horses today as we did see in the past.

I also see this in my daily work as a musicmaker. 25 years ago it was very seldom that people put my work on hold because the horse was injured. The last years I see the amount of these injured horse growing and growing.

[FancyFree]

This is exactly what I mean when I speak of childish behaviour.

When someboy sends me an Email : "Theo I am tied to my bed, because I broke my hip........bla...bla.............................. ........" I asume it's their way to use their words.



Ho HO! That's rich coming from you. Please don't flounce off again, taking your videos, vowing never to return.

No offense was intended in my post. I thought you were making a joke. How VERY silly of me! :lol:

[stolensilver]

I'm not sure the increase in lameness is due to the decrease in size of modern warmbloods. I'm highly suspicious of the degree of inbreeding that has been done in the past 20 years and stallions being used that broke down at an early age due to heritable soft tissue weaknesses but their lamenesses were kept quiet so the stud fees kept rolling in.

I do wonder where warmblood breeding is going. Breeders aren't given a true picture on soundness. The wastage rate on young horses in Europe is frighteningly high. Until breeders are allowed to see the numbers, not of the outstanding successful horses, but the numbers that fell by the wayside due to various lamenesses then breeders will not be able to make informed choices as to which sire to use to give the offspring the best chance of schooling past the age of 8, let along getting to grand prix!

And of course those figures are never going to be forthcoming.

[petitefilly]

It is always good to temper the present with the past, history does repeat it's self. I watch old videos and think the horses were quite loose, and fluid, twenty years ago, and today they are marked with tense, stiff movement. I wonder why it has changed, and if it is improvement. I wonder about the judging, the riders, the horses, why we breed horses differently, etc. In the end, progress is not always improvement, and what we see today will be different in twenty years.

My sincere hope is we start to get more fluid again, and lessen the grip I see in today's upper level dressage. Hands have gotten more like iron rocks, the hands of the past were softer. I may never see perfection. I believe the past did not have perfection, things will always be impossible. We can only reach! <out stretched hands!>