This hurts

[torontodressage]

This hurts

Danish Olympic dressage rider Lars Petersen shared stories and answered questions about the sport of dressage in front of a standing-room only crowd at a recent “Shop Talk” held at the dressage boutique Sho Clothes in Wellington. Petersen answered questions in front of a lively audience that asked questions ranging from what age is best for a horse to start Grand Prix (that depends on the horse) to why European riders seem to be better than Americans. In answer to the question about Europeans dominating the dressage world, Petersen said, “What a lot of Americans lack is discipline. You won’t see that in Europe! If you want to do something really, really well you need to have discipline, no matter what the sport.”

[oldenmare]

Interesting. I'm assuming (and we all know what happens there) that he is basing this on the time he spent in the States, working with students here......

I DO have trouble believing that such a statement would apply to the likes of Debbie McDonald or Lisa Wilcox, but as a generalization - something to think about....

[slc2]

The trouble is that that's only two people. :)

"Discipline" can mean a lot of things.

For a lower level rider, it means facing the fact that without a whole lot of riding, one doesn't improve. It is the old Western saying, 'It takes a lot of wet saddleblankets to make a rider'. It can mean riding more frequently and making sacrifices to get good lessons frequently. It can also mean doing what the trainer tells them to with a few less questions (assuming they have made those sacrifices to get themselves to someone whose guidance actually merits being followed!)

For an intermediate rider it can mean learning the shocking truth about dressage - that the rider has to require some immediate reaction to his aids, and that later 'lightness' and 'invisible aids' are based on that immediate reaction and a whole lot of unquestioning obedience to the leg, AND that there's a whole lot of forward in dressage. Most people struggle with that for a long time and many quit before resolving that.

For an advanced rider it can mean an awful lot of sacrifices and time spent working very, very hard.

And one hopes PEDERSEN doesn't mean by 'discipline', 'training with PEDERSEN and buying his horses', but probably one could do a whole lot worse.

[TobySocks]

(The quote is from Lars Petersen, not Andreas Helgstrand, which is relevant as Petersen lives and trains in the US and has done so for several years, whereas Helgstrand's career has only been in Europe.)

[slc2]

Sorry, I made a mistake. I wrote the wrong name for some brainless frostbitten reason, though I do know that Pedersen is working in the USA and am looking forward to seeing him teach....and though many European trainers might make the same type of comments.

I think a lot of riders are seen in America as undisciplined, part of that might be that there is no real system other than some YR opportunities, part of that might be that a lot of riders simply aren't interested in progressing and aren't going to make the same choices, but still want to clinic with a top trainer, which is kind of an odd dichotomy.

[Bayou Roux]

I have worked with a number of local dance instructors in the theater, and the one whose productions and dancers are the very, very best, highest quality, most likely to produce artistic professional dancers is a Russian immigrant.

His program is very difficult, very challenging, very demanding. If you want to dance for him, you must only dance. Kids who want to play soccer, take violin, ride horses, and participate in science camp will find themselves way behind in his classes, and not very happy about being ridden hard to choose between all the other and dance.

I think maybe this is what Lars was referring to-- the European acceptance that, to excel, you have to limit your choices and commit to the one thing, to discipline yourself to saying "No, can't do it all well, gotta choose."

We Americans tend the other way-- we want to have it all, and absolutely chafe at the notion of having our choices limited. The few who work at the highest levels and succeed have had to make these hard choices for a very long time, like Rafael's dancers.

[monstrpony]

The "wet saddleblankets" idea usually refers to the horse, not the rider, though it's equally true for both. And it does not mean soaking your saddleblanket in the watering trough, though more than one person has misunderstood it thus as yet another good ol' American Shortcut to good horsemanship.

[Coreene]

Slick, the Lars speaking in Florida was Petersen. Dunno who your pal Mr Pedersen is, but he's not the Lars the OP was referring to.

[CTM]

Eliza Sydnor had a similiar comment after visiting some training barns in Europe. It was an article in DT and I recall her saying that the attention to detail, accuracy, and preparation for competition was a much higher standard in Europe than in the US. I believe she and Lars have valid comments.

[slc2]

Sorry, Coreene, can't spell today either. I DO know who he is, though it is seeming less like it with each post, :lol:

[Donella]

No doubt, and Lisa trained for most of her career in Europe. I am guessing that is where she got her sense of discipline. I am not sure about Debbie.

As with anything, he is speaking generally. There are always exceptions. The Europeans are less concerned about "being nice" so to speak and more about getting things done. I see the same with Sporthorse breeding ie American registries vs Euro . Maybe not very nice, but thats the way I see it.

[merrygoround]

Discipline is a mental attitude that insists you take responsibility for reaching your goals. It's knowing that it is your responsibility to make sure your horse is well taken care of, that you get the best instruction you can, and you focus on improving yourself and your skills.

You can't go out and buy experience, or education. :no: Talent and physical ability, sadly,
you must be born with. :yes:

[XenophonKnows]

His program is very difficult, very challenging, very demanding. If you want to dance for him, you must only dance. Kids who want to play soccer, take violin, ride horses, and participate in science camp will find themselves way behind in his classes, and not very happy about being ridden hard to choose between all the other and dance.

I think maybe this is what Lars was referring to-- the European acceptance that, to excel, you have to limit your choices and commit to the one thing, to discipline yourself to saying "No, can't do it all well, gotta choose."

We Americans tend the other way-- we want to have it all, and absolutely chafe at the notion of having our choices limited. The few who work at the highest levels and succeed have had to make these hard choices for a very long time, like Rafael's dancers.


I would agree. Many of my students and parents tends to equate a 'successful' lifestyle with being involved in lots of DIFFERENT activities. (Then there are the folks who want to be involved in lots of DIFFERENT activities and excel in all of them. That's another headache.) Devoting lots of time and resources to just ONE activity is a concept they have a hard time wrapping their heads around.

I find it very interesting to discuss and theorize the variety of reasons for this , so if anyone thinks they know why, please chime in.

[slc2]

For some people I think avoiding buckling down to one thing avoids the possibility of devoting all their efforts to one thing and failing despite devoting themselves to it. I think people fear that. Doing a little bit of this and that avoids the problem. And I think many people go even further, looking down their noses at riders who focus on one thing and accusing them of 'not being well rounded' or being 'too intense', and patting themselves on the back that they are far superior and their horses are happier.

[mbm]

well, what little i know about European riders/trainers compared to USian riders/trainers - i would agree.

USians *hate* beign told what to do and chafe at having any kind of structure or guiding system that can "hold them back" or not allow them to do as they please. to me this results in lack of quality as a whole as there are no quality controls. plus us USians really do love to buy our way up and not work for it.

We also want to live in our own little world of thinking how good we are and if a europena judge /trainer/etc even gives us a hint that we might not be all that - well it is them with the problem - and not us. :)

Many of the European riders/trainers i know just shakes their head at us lazy USians that have an overinflated idea of how good we are ;)... but of course being smart business people they do take our money :)

and FWIW, i LOVE my European trainer. god bless his sox for kicking my ass and doing his best to make me a disciplined and better rider... but of course being a USian and a vegetarian animal lover to boot (luckily i am not a house wife on top of it all!) - well i have a hard time being as demanding as even my gentle trainer would like :)

[papony]

I have known Lars since he was 18 years old and spent most of the last six years in his barn as his student. Just to repsond to an earlier SLC-2 post, there is no way that Lars' reference to discipline meant those who train or buy horses from him. There is more demand for him as a trainer/instructor than he can accomodate so this talk was not a marketing ploy to drum up students. Also, while he sells horses, I can attest that he works as hard with you and your horse regardless of who sold you the horse. I have never felt under pressure to buy anything from him in the entire time I've known him.

I was not at the Sho-Clothes event so I do not now the context of his comments. However it sounds like he was referring to the sheer numbers of elite high performance competitors on the two continents. I doubt it was a slur against the novice dressage rider or the multi-tasking serious AA..... I can tell you he has enormous respect for specific riders in both of those categories. I also doubt he was inferring that our own American elite athletes are not disciplined. They have to be. I suspect he was stating the obvious.... The European nations have a much deeper bench when it somes to fielding a team that we do and, in his opinion, it is because in general our system and our culture is not as disciplined as the European system and culture. Sorry! He's right! How many hours a day do we spend on a longe line? how many hours a day do we spend reading the written works of the dressage masters and volumes about the different riding theories? How many years do we spend with one master trainer learning a system of training? How many of us get our horses out twice a day for conditioning or in hand work? How many of us spend 12 hours a day at the barn for 20 years to perfect our craft? This doesn't make us bad people.... it just explains, as a nation, why we have fewer "Born in the USA" Americans at the upper end of the World Rankings list.

Lars was #2 in the world. He's been to the Olympics, World Champinships, World Cup, European Championships, etc. He knows the other team riders personally, their history, how they got where they are, what sacrifices they made. He's trained a dozen GP horses from scratch. He knows what it takes in a way few people do. It's hard to argue with his answer.

[Dressurfan]

I don't see why this statement should hurt your feelings. It is a known fact that europeans dominate the dressage scene. It is fair to ask and to theorize as to why this is in an effort to improve American dressage riding. You cant improve something if you dont know which areas to address.
If you personally feel that you dont lack discipline then you shouldn't feel Lars Pertersen's statement applies to you. If you do lack discipline then take his advice and try to work on that. Its not a horribly mean statement.

[Elegante E]

This is such BS. Americans compete at the top levels and do quite well. We don't dominate but so what. We dominate at other sports. Hmm anyone remember who won jumping at the olympics? This doesn't put us at the bottom of the competition ladder and does not mean that we aren't disciplined enough to compete well and succeed.

I just don't understand silly comments like this and the attitude that goes along.

[Calliope]

I would agree that horse riding (and many other sports or organised activities) may be more disciplined in Europe, but I would argue that the systems that have been put in place require it if you want to participate.

This is not 'natural discipline', but 'forced discipline'.


I wouldn't call most Europeans in general any more disciplined than their American (or Australian etc) counterparts.

[papony]

The question to Lars and his answer was in the context of dressage, not jumping or eventing or even general horsemanship. Also, it was not a question about ability, it was a question about the reason for the difference in the sheer numbers of elite competitors. Clearly Americans have the ability to be top compeitors in dressage. That wasn't the question.

[goeslikestink]

I have known Lars since he was 18 years old and spent most of the last six years in his barn as his student. Just to repsond to an earlier SLC-2 post, there is no way that Lars' reference to discipline meant those who train or buy horses from him. There is more demand for him as a trainer/instructor than he can accomodate so this talk was not a marketing ploy to drum up students. Also, while he sells horses, I can attest that he works as hard with you and your horse regardless of who sold you the horse. I have never felt under pressure to buy anything from him in the entire time I've known him.

I was not at the Sho-Clothes event so I do not now the context of his comments. However it sounds like he was referring to the sheer numbers of elite high performance competitors on the two continents. I doubt it was a slur against the novice dressage rider or the multi-tasking serious AA..... I can tell you he has enormous respect for specific riders in both of those categories. I also doubt he was inferring that our own American elite athletes are not disciplined. They have to be. I suspect he was stating the obvious.... The European nations have a much deeper bench when it somes to fielding a team that we do and, in his opinion, it is because in general our system and our culture is not as disciplined as the European system and culture. Sorry! He's right! How many hours a day do we spend on a longe line? how many hours a day do we spend reading the written works of the dressage masters and volumes about the different riding theories? How many years do we spend with one master trainer learning a system of training? How many of us get our horses out twice a day for conditioning or in hand work? How many of us spend 12 hours a day at the barn for 20 years to perfect our craft? This doesn't make us bad people.... it just explains, as a nation, why we have fewer "Born in the USA" Americans at the upper end of the World Rankings list.

Lars was #2 in the world. He's been to the Olympics, World Champinships, World Cup, European Championships, etc. He knows the other team riders personally, their history, how they got where they are, what sacrifices they made. He's trained a dozen GP horses from scratch. He knows what it takes in a way few people do. It's hard to argue with his answer.

thats how i read it

[Elegante E]

The question to Lars and his answer was in the context of dressage, not jumping or eventing or even general horsemanship. Also, it was not a question about ability, it was a question about the reason for the difference in the sheer numbers of elite competitors. Clearly Americans have the ability to be top compeitors in dressage. That wasn't the question.

Ok, this is still a silly argument or comment. Obviously, dressage is a more competitive sport in PARTS of europe. Fine. But that doesn't mean americans are less disciplined about the sport. From what I've seen we have fewer young riders dedicated to this particular sport who have access to solid training. The core of our dressage riders have come to the sport at a later age which limits them. This doesn't mean they are less disciplined and from what I've experienced, I've seen tons of dedication and discipline.

I suspect our next generation of young dressage riders will be brought along with better training.

I really don't see it as a discipline problem but a growth of the sport issue.

[meupatdoes]

Over in the hunter forum, somebody asked what an "advanced" rider was.
I responded that an advanced rider can
a.) build a horse from the ground up and turn a greenie into a made one
(without a trainer hovering over every ride)
b.) ride many different horses (and not necessarily nicely made up ones) and bring out a good ride on them, even in the first ride on that horse.

Basically, assess the holes, and go about plugging them methodically, efficiently, and accurately. If you can pull a horse off the track/out of an auction and have it be a solid equine citizen in a couple weeks, you're advanced.

Some people were like, "Yeah well if I am doing the A/Os I am advanced even if I can't train the horse up myself and if I depend on my trainer to manage his program for me." (not in so many words but that is what they said)

Some people responded that there was a huge difference between advanced and intermediate when viewed in this way (well...that's why it's called "advanced") and maybe there should be a category of "Intermediate Advanced".

Basically, in the United States, everyone wants a gold star. They all want to call themselves advanced (EVERYONE should get to be advanced, just like 95% of people consider themselves to be above average drivers), even if they would be UTTERLY at a loss if someone handed them five horses they'd never met before and said "OK! Here you go! Have fun and see you at the horseshows in two months!" and left them to figure out those horses on their own.

There is a big difference between trying to reach high standards, and trying to lower the standards so that you can say you've reached them. A lot of USAmerican culture is setting it up so that everyone feels special and that everyone gets the gold star.


Speaking of discipline, how many people this week said, "OMG, it's much too cold. Couldn't possibly ride."
?

[Bayou Roux]

Basically, in the United States, everyone wants a gold star. They all want to call themselves advanced (EVERYONE should get to be advanced, just like 95% of people consider themselves to be above average drivers), even if they would be UTTERLY at a loss if someone handed them five horses they'd never met before and said "OK! Here you go! Have fun and see you at the horseshows in two months!" and left them to figure out those horses on their own.

There is a big difference between trying to reach high standards, and trying to lower the standards so that you can say you've reached them. A lot of USAmerican culture is setting it up so that everyone feels special and that everyone gets the gold star.



I think I love you.

[mbm]

meupatdoes - absolute kick ass, right on, post. *that* is what i was getting at in my post above - but you said it with far more........ discipline :)

and fwiw i will raise my hand as someone who didnt ride this week - not because of it being too cold (it has been in the 70's here), but because one of my OTTB greenies planted me and i ended up with a slight concussion.. so i decided it was better to stay off them while i wasnt feeling good (and yup i was wearing a helmet!)

re: the advanced rider and being given 5 horses etc..... that would be so fun! i am up to 3 (new ones) now..... and i will say - it is a fun and interesting challenge to take in unknown horses and then access them, decide on a plan of action and then carry it out. for sure this has been a super good learning experience for me:) and maybe one day i will get to be "Advanced" too:)

[J-Lu]

USians *hate* beign told what to do and chafe at having any kind of structure or guiding system that can "hold them back" or not allow them to do as they please. to me this results in lack of quality as a whole as there are no quality controls. plus us USians really do love to buy our way up and not work for it.

We also want to live in our own little world of thinking how good we are and if a europena judge /trainer/etc even gives us a hint that we might not be all that - well it is them with the problem - and not us. :)

Many of the European riders/trainers i know just shakes their head at us lazy USians that have an overinflated idea of how good we are ;)... but of course being smart business people they do take our money :)

and FWIW, i LOVE my European trainer. god bless his sox for kicking my ass and doing his best to make me a disciplined and better rider... but of course being a USian and a vegetarian animal lover to boot (luckily i am not a house wife on top of it all!) - well i have a hard time being as demanding as even my gentle trainer would like :)

But this goes both ways! The rudest person I ever saw in a clinic was a German national young rider who would NOT be told what to do by an American "I" judge. "Stupid American". I knew another young German rider who also thought all Americans were stupid and had nothing to offer (he since lost his clients here and is back in Germany). Some European riders/trainer also take full advantage of their citizenship/accent and think they are "above" the "stupid americans"...especially when selling horses. There are people on BOTH sides of the pond think a little too much of themselves sometimes.

USians are lazy and hate to be told what to do? Pulleaze!!!! What an oversimplification. Lots of USians hold jobs, have families and ride at the same time. Many USians also own the horses they ride and so have to pay the bills. Lazy? I think not. I do agree that most Germans are more disciplinarians with their horses and really don't subscribe to horses being "pets". There's nothing wrong with considering your horse a pet if you pay the bills.

I have no idea what Lars meant, but I do think that many other nations do have more discipline than Americans in general, especially the teens. Of course, in terms of dressage, Europeans also have access to quality school horses, quality instructors, and it is really easy to ride alot if you don't have a horse when you are younger. They have alot of riding schools. It is also easier, I think, for riders to get sponsorships.

Years ago, I remember that Sue Blinks wrote an article about going to train with Anky vG. Sue laughed that after a full day of riding, she came inside to eat and relax only to find Anky on a treadmill after dinner. Sue commented "Now that was discipline". So maybe Lars has a point?

[Coreene]

I agree with Lars.

[Donella]

Originally Posted by mbm
USians *hate* beign told what to do and chafe at having any kind of structure or guiding system that can "hold them back" or not allow them to do as they please. to me this results in lack of quality as a whole as there are no quality controls. plus us USians really do love to buy our way up and not work for it.

We also want to live in our own little world of thinking how good we are and if a europena judge /trainer/etc even gives us a hint that we might not be all that - well it is them with the problem - and not us

Again, hence the lack of success of American made sporthorse breeding registries. Exact same attitute.

Are there any top American riders who haven't had any European coach or mentor?

[spotted mustang]

I took my first riding lessons in Germany as a kid - I remember that as a student you were challenged (and were expected to put up with this without complaint) to the utmost limit of your physical ability. I remember going into lessons shaking with fear, and coming out barely able to walk from being worked so hard and yep, falling off regularly.

Here in America, there are very few people who would agree to put up with (and pay for!) that kind of abuse :D

[Sabine]

I took my first riding lessons in Germany as a kid - I remember that as a student you were challenged (and were expected to put up with this without complaint) to the utmost limit of your physical ability. I remember going into lessons shaking with fear, and coming out barely able to walk from being worked so hard and yep, falling off regularly.

Here in America, there are very few people who would agree to put up with (and pay for!) that kind of abuse :D

I do agree with your statement- BUT- I have to say that the discipline that I learned there- when I was a kid and junior rider- allows me now- to still ride young horses and have the stamina and the 'toughness' to handle sometimes scary situations and press on. I think -just like in any sport- we are in the US really tough with our kids in certain sports- i.e. football at the highschool level- wow- check it out! It's Really tough when you go to a winning school and see what goes on in the training room...boy- I consider that equal or even tougher than what I endured learning how to ride in all disciplines as a youngster....it's the german national sport (next to soccer) and it demands the toughness to produce the quality...just like here in American Football...

[ESG]

This hurts


WHY? It's true!

The man didn't say "all Americans lack discipline"; he said " a lot of Americans lack discipline" and I couldn't agree more. I'm getting out of the training/teaching business because no one wants to put the work in any more. The typical student I get now is a middle aged dilettante whose kids are grown and have always wanted to ride and do the fancy dressage stuff. They're blown away when they discover that it actually requires work! And dedication! And discipline! I've had it with would-be riders who do nothing but whine about their aching this or their sore that, or, when asked to do something different in a lesson, sniveling, "But he won't do that!!!" and whining some more. :dead:

Bravo, Lars!

[Blkarab]

I attended a Lars clinic late last year as an auditor. My instructor was chosen to ride with him as a demo rider. After watching the clinic and talking with her afterwards, I think I understand where Lars is coming from with his comment. He worked those riders and horses hard! My instructor told me that was the hardest she had worked with a clinician in years (since she had gone to Germany to train). The horses were exhausted by the end of the 3 days, and she was tired and sore. Ever since, her instruction has gone to a new (tougher) level. She has set the bar higher for us and is demanding a bit more perfection from every ride. It's put into focus for me, the amount of perfection this sport demands.

[Margaret]

so, let me get this straight after reading the "pro discipline" responses in this thread...

discipline (in Germany/Europe) means paying some one to make you "shake with fear," cry, drive you to exhaustion, and physically damage yourself (and possibly your horse)? hmm-- isn't there another name for that? ;-)

doesn't discipline mean pushing *yourself* rather than damaging others to achieve your goals?

[slc2]

Sure, sure. And if you want to ride in the top competitions in the world, even if you want to just do well in competition at the national or regional levels, you have to work pretty hard. Even here the mythology of effortless success is spread every single day, relax, take it easy, if you have a problem quit trying, go on a trail ride, don't school dressage every day, the horse will go sour, don't work the horse for more than a brief period in collection, give the horse a couple months off and he'll do better, everything is always easy or you're doing it wrong, if an instructor pushes you she stinks, if she tells you you need to work harder she's wrong, anyone who tells you your horse is unsuitable is always wrong, you know more than your instructor about YOUR horse, it's all about the journey, blah blah blah blah. Mythology. That's the recipe for no progress and no improvement, even at the lowest levels, and it works less and less well the more goals a person has.

And no, it does not 'damage others' if the horse is properly selected and conditioned, and the rider gets on the horse and rides once in a while!

As far as 'damaging others' being the students who are 'exhausted', they either learn to step up to the plate and do what's needed, or they quit, and go around telling everyone how 'mean' the instructor is.

It's all in just deciding what you want to do, and if you're willing to do what's required to make it happen. It's VERY clear what needs to happen. Ask any successful experienced dressage trainer, they will tell you very frankly. People just don't want to work that hard.

At the higher levels, I think there's some hangover of that, but I think the problems become more complex at that point. It becomes a matter of a very experienced, successful rider who may have a lot of customers of his own, and a lot of very, very flattering attention and admirers at home, having to completely change how he does things, and get some very humbling criticism. During the mid eighties, Klimke came here and read a few of our riders the riot act. They ran off in tears rather than accept what he had to say, despite his years of experience at the level they wanted to be at.

No one ever achieves anything in any sport or even any other endeavor, without working hard and being singlemindedly devoted to it and nothing else.

Nearly 30 years ago Jane Kidd wrote a book called 'Riding in Europe'. Her intent was to go to the top barns in Europe, and find out from them why the English did so badly in international competition.

The one very specif answer she got was 'No Half Halts'.

While that may have caused some initial clucking and complaining, it does seem some people took the advice to heart.

Americans are, by and large, very willing to work at certain sports, but not riding. Riding, for most people, is just something you DO, and unfortunately, even once people figure out what's involved, many of them remain very, very resistant to instruction. The problem gets worse once people think they know what they're doing.

Years ago we were watching a girl get lessons in how to teach the flying changes. Her horse struggled and managed to do a couple changes. The instructor said, 'Well, she'll be out of here in no time'. 'Why', said I. 'They always leave once they get a couple changes, then they figure they don't need me any more'. Sadly, a lot of people get to that point and start teaching themselves! LOL. The land of opportunity.

LOL.

[Kolsch]

I would agree. Many of my students and parents tends to equate a 'successful' lifestyle with being involved in lots of DIFFERENT activities. (Then there are the folks who want to be involved in lots of DIFFERENT activities and excel in all of them. That's another headache.) Devoting lots of time and resources to just ONE activity is a concept they have a hard time wrapping their heads around.

I find it very interesting to discuss and theorize the variety of reasons for this , so if anyone thinks they know why, please chime in.

It's something I struggle with on an almost daily basis- finding the balance I need in my life to be happy. I know darn well what I have to do to be the rider I *would like* to be, but reality is, I'm NOT happy doing it. It's not enough balance in my life. There are other things I enjoy doing as well and when I get to the point I feel I'm sacrificing one thing for another, it brews discontent within. Even though I rationalize it as "there is no such thing as sacrifice, only priority", it doesn't work.

For me it's balancing the effort between x, y, and z to achieve what I want to in each aspect.

Riding is the most unbalanced thing I do, in relation to effort=achievement for a lot of reasons. Expense, time involved, etc.

Maybe it's societal influence, but I feel I just absolutely enjoy so many things I don't want to miss out on them, just to be a top level rider. Funny thing is that in the end I think I have a similar level of achievement in all things.

[rothmpp]

I agree with the Petersen sentiment - how many of you want your kids in several different activities to make them "well-rounded'? I'll tell you - I missed out on some activities in high school/college - but I rode every day. And I did well. Not elite level well, but better than a substantial number of my peers.

This is going to be a widely unpopular notion - but I'm recalling the outrage at the mere notion of a performance standard not too long ago. While the proposal was not ideal, the sentiment alone was harpooned. Do you think that the sentiment would have been considered so outlandish in the European countries that he is referring to? I doubt it.

[Elegante E]

I think the "pro lazy" group is comparing apples to oranges in this discussion. If you compare professional riders in Germany to the US, do you really think they are lazier here?

If you are comparing amateur riders in Germany to the US, then that isn't fair. The German amateurs started riding when kids and focused on dressage at a young age. The ones here have either started riding as adults or came to dressage later in their riding careers. Also, since dressage isn't a national sport here, the older riders getting into it, don't have a full understanding of what is involved in succeeding at the sport.

Dressage is still a young sport in the US. Come on, it started in Germany! For heaven's sake, they should excell at it there. It's like baseball here. We should rule and for the most part do. Of course, as baseball has become more popular in other countries the competition has gotten stronger and it's harder for us to stay number one.

Hmm, maybe the Germans are getting lazy, as they have lost dominance to the Dutch.

[slc2]

I think it would be very hard to 'compare' amateurs OR professionals there and here, without finding some very big differences.

Pros are at a big advantage. They have much better access to shows and to trainers.

[dressagerose]

I think that the highest level of any endeavor requires a huge amount of discipline and that few people are going to achieve those high levels. Is there less of a culture of discipline in the US than in Europe regarding riding? Maybe. I think some of it is the increase in opportunities to ride when young in Europe. However, most of us don't ever expect that we are going to reach the highest levels of dressage. We do it to have fun with our horses and to enjoy the journey. We recognize that we aren't going to put the time and sacrifices in to make it to the highest elite levels. I didn't ride this week in the cold because I have ridden plenty in the cold when I had to and quite frankly I don't have to. I don't get paid to do it and my horses certainly don't care. I also don't think I am going to go the Olympics any time soon. I am fairly serious about my riding, but I also try to be realistic.

The people that drive me the most nuts are the folks that talk like they are so serious and they are going to do this that and the other and yet it is clear that they will never put in the kind of effort required to do any of it. If you tell me that you want to be at the top then I expect to see the dedication required to do it. I think that might be what Lars is referring to. Lots of people talk about wanting to be at the top but it is clear they aren't really serious about it. But I don't think that means there is anything wrong with those who know they aren't ever going to be the elite but still would like to enjoy their horses and learn about dressage.

[Alagirl]

Elegant E

The difference between Professionals and Amateurs in Europe is not that big.
There is no pro/am rule.


It's not like the Europeans don't work and raise families. It's this funny thing, with more discipline comes more freedom. You can't just look at the top riders or whatever. 'we dominate other sports' is not exactly a valid response. Heck, even the "Dream team" got their collective butts handed to them with making it only to a disappointing bronze in the Olympics (don't ask which Olympics, had not had any coffee yet)

Discipline is a way of life. You learn a trade for 3 years before you can call yourself a journeyman. You are being told what to do. My husband is a supervisor in a large operation. He has to deal every day with people who lack the discipline to do the work they are paid well for to do. The precious syndrome is wreaking havoc with this country.

Right, the US does not dominate Dressage. But that's just a little symptom of the over all problem (and football etc only works because a bunch of old men's pride is riding on it - no pun intended)

[Margaret]

thanks dressage rose!

If you announce that you are going to compete internationally or even regionally as your life goal, yes, you better be willing to work very hard indeed. One hopes that your ambition for your competitive success doesn't lead to the results being endlessly lamented in the eventing forum about disposable horses. But then competitive dressage rarely kills or maims horses, does it?

I have a different notion of discipline from my late husband, a German professional rider and trainer.

Discipline does not equal sore, exhausted horses and tearful fearful riders surviving lessons or clinics. You can ride 10 horses a day and not be disciplined, if you ride them badly.

Discipline equals patience and self control, especially when encountering problems. Discipline equals persistence in the face of difficulties. Discipline equals knowing what you want and knowing what the right thing is to want, regardless of what others around say or do. Discipline is the desire to educate yourself, always, and to be able to admit mistakes and to seek to correct them. Discipline is the ability to control yourself

[Elegante E]

Elegant E

The difference between Professionals and Amateurs in Europe is not that big.
There is no pro/am rule.


But you're ignoring that most of the riders started younger and had better access to training.

Europeans are suffering from the "precious" syndrome as well, don't fool yourself there. Not sure why these things turn into self flagellation. I just don't get the joy some of you are showing in this "why we suck" discussion.

Also I don't understand why competing at the top levels without dominating the sport says there's something wrong. Our riders are consistently finishing near the top. They are doing competative, even lovely tests. How does this belittle our efforts in dressage?????

Seriously, confused by this Number One or Nothing attitude.

[Lieselotte]

As a couple of people have pointed out already, riding - especially dressage - is a national sport in Germany. Many many more kids start riding early and with well-trained professionals (mostly) so obviously you will have a greater number of talented people that move on through the levels and are very well-trained by their late teens, if they stick with it. There are horse shows and local competitions almost everywhere in close proximity - and yes, geography makes a big difference as well! Here in the US, the concentration of serious stables focusing on just one thing is missing (with the exception of Florida in the winter I guess...) There seems to be a little bit of everything everywhere, a little hunter/jumper, a little Western, a little saddleseat, driving, racing, etc., and a lot of different breeds for different purposes, sometimes all within one stable. And as most of you know, this is not the case in Germany. So just by sheer mathematics, there's a big advantage.

As far as discipline goes, I was and still am disciplined in many parts of my life, but I did not like a lot of the (group) lessons I experienced as a young teenager in Germany. They were of the tough kind mentioned by someone earlier. They were tough physically (good!) and emotionally (not good!) and often messed with my confidence. But that's how you end up with the best and most serious - the ones who are strong and can handle the hard work and harsh words will stick around... Everyone else, like me, can do it as a hobby. No hard feelings! Only now as a re-rider many years later do I see what great instruction I got and actually think fondly of my first instructor, but I KNOW I didn't have the chops!

So what I'm trying to say is that indeed you are comparing apples and oranges as far as the "ground conditions" are concerned. They are much more favorable in Germany and/or Europe in general. But there's no need to feel hurt by Lars's observation (unless he meant you personally and you are actually very disciplined ;)) because only many years of hard work, i.e. starting really early, with very good instruction, but also true talent and ambition will get you to the top in most sports, and I think we can all agree on that. (Take gymnastics or figure skating, for instance.) There are too many distractions and/or expectations for children in this country and the school system favors variety over the serious pursuit of just one thing, and again, that seems different in Germany where kids often get "plucked" early if they show promise in a certain sport.

[slc2]

"unless he meant you personally and you are actually very disciplined"

but clearly, what we think of here as disciplined and what he thinks of as disciplined are very, very different or he wouldn't have said that. I'm sure the people he was referring to are highly offended and think of themselves as very disciplined and serious. I don't think he has very many 'non serious, casual' customers. It's not all that easy to get a lesson with him.

He once said that the lower levels are pretty much like 'practicing scales' (in music). I really don't think he sees lower level work as an end in and of itself, or even more so, as a 'dead end'. But for many people, that's all they want to do. I think many people don't like the obedience or immediate reaction to the aids any further work requires, nor the quick reactions and sensitivity of the rider that's needed, nor the fitness of the horse that has to be developed by riding daily. Yet I believe they STILL want to be taken very seriously and viewed as very, very dedicated and 'disciplined'.

[SaddleFitterVA]

*gag*cough*gag*

USains? WTF?

Americans, United States citizens, citizens of USA.

Any of those is perfectly normal speech.

I find myself wondering if you people try to speak that clump of letters.

do you say "ush-ans" or what?

Discipline is remembering what you want. If you want to be the best in the world at Dressage or some other riding endeavor, the first start is to remember that.

Don't worry that you will not be well rounded, or interesting at a cocktail party, you won't have time for many of those because you will spend all of your time and money riding, taking lessons, watching others ride.

But, really? USians? or was it USains?

And please, was the first person to type this an American or from another country? If you are an American and could not be bothered to use the correct word, because of ???, that is a lack of a different sort of discipline.

As an American, I ride a lot, I work to improve. I also know that I will probably never reach the international limelight, and I'm ok with that as it is exceedingly expensive and a bit of luck is involved in having the right horse at the right time and having nothing go wrong when it comes to all of life.

[mbm]

*gag*cough*gag*

USians ? WTF?


it is "U.S.ians". (u-ess-ee-ans) (like canadian or russian - only say the actual letters 'U' 'S' then "ians" - easy :))

and i think it is pretty funny that you are so offended by it. I made it up when i was living in Canadia (yes, that is a joke too).... i just think it sounds.....less pretensious shall we say..... i find folks react to me a lot differently (when in another country) when i say i am a USian as opposed to an UNITED STATES CITIZEN or an AMERICAN...

but please - feel free NOT to use it it it upsets you so badly..... i wont be hurt ;)

[AZ TD]

Maybe USains will catch on ;). I have often thought that American should include people from Canada, Mexico, Peru, etc. Citizen of the USA is a mouthful.
Theresa

[Alagirl]

But you're ignoring that most of the riders started younger and had better access to training.

Europeans are suffering from the "precious" syndrome as well, don't fool yourself there. Not sure why these things turn into self flagellation. I just don't get the joy some of you are showing in this "why we suck" discussion.

Also I don't understand why competing at the top levels without dominating the sport says there's something wrong. Our riders are consistently finishing near the top. They are doing competative, even lovely tests. How does this belittle our efforts in dressage?????

Seriously, confused by this Number One or Nothing attitude.


Don't kid yourself, the prevelant mind set is still to not toot your own horn. Yeah, Barney is catching on, too, but there are less kids raised on it so far.

Self flaggelation? More like a rare opportunity to look at life with other eyes. Heaven knows most Americans (some regions excepted) won't give it to you straight. ever! Around here where I live they actually complement you on what they find most hideous.

And no, I see it away from the horse world, too. My friend is 64 years old and aquiered a Black belt in Taekwondo a couple of years ago. She is in fantastic shape and more flexible than she ever was. She gets approached a lot about how she does it, work hard and eat right, and all the 'I wish I could do that, why don't you teach us (for free of course) are half-hearted at best. I see many people start out in class but disappear once they are no longer the White belts whom all is forgiven, but are actually expected to step it up, a baby step at a time.
jealousy only sees the pretty flowers, but not the spade and hard work it took to get it right.

Face it, the US is a culture that embraces the quick fix and shortcut. Martha Steward is the exception, Semi Home made is the rule.

I give you that much, the problem is more complex. And again the Europeans have a step ahead of the US market. it's called networking.

My late sister was a very good rider, with many ribbons to her name. She had a knack for bringing along young horses and did so for several other folks. She was not a pro, but she was compensated for her time. She got her start on loaner horses provided by generous individuals who were just thrilled to have the horse being exercised. No money changed hands there, but gawd, without millions and millions in liability, you can't have people over for a cup of coffee!
And yes, the kids start out earlier in dressage. Jumping is the treat, dressage the ground work. You don't get to jump before you can't sit trot and canter without popping the horse in the mouth. So yes, to get to jumping you have to have the discipline to make it through boring flatwork.

When things don't go right, the prime reaction I was taught was to look where I as a rider messed up, lets face it, it's in 99% of all cases the rider.

Here it's a trip to the chiromassusepunturethereapy person. First we spend a couple grand on health care professionals to find a fault that wasn't us before we take a good look at our selves.

[siegi b.]

alagirl..... are you sure we're not related somehow????

[Elegante E]

Hmm, so because a few of you know a few people who aren't athletic fanatics, then all americans are lazy. Oh, riiiiight. Now I see it.

Americans are just sooo lazy. Guess that's why we've had the strongest economy for decades and have less vacation time than the average european. Hmm, I wonder if all those long hours in the office may have something to do with it. Hard to ride when one is working for a living and not taking month long vacations.

Btw, I have two relatives in Germany whose veterinary practices are mostly chiropractic work on horses. Hmm, and Dr. Gerd Heuschmann would tell you that he treats a LOT of injurred horses, injurred from doing dressage by those perfect European riders.

Btw, gross generalizations whether by oenself or others is still gross. This isn't a reality check. It's a put down. One some are obviously enjoying as, you know, america is soooo messed up.

[EqTrainer]

Alagirl said:

"Jumping is the treat, dreassage the ground work. You don't get to jump before you can't sit trot and canter without popping the horse in the mouth. So yes, to get to jumping you have to have the discipline to make it through boring flatwork."

I haven't read this entire thread but I will say.. this is so true. The big threat here in America is - if you don't get my kid jumping immediately, I'll take her somewhere else. And they do. And so trainers have them learning to canter *off the jump* - it's crazy. $$$$$. If no one did it, no one would "have" to do it ;)

My husband is European. He plays a few sports and was absolutely gobsmacked at how incompetent so many ammy players of those sports are, when he came here. They didn't know the rules.. they didn't know the basics.. but by God, they were *playing*. Well, it's hard to play a sport with other people who are clueless. I thought he was being a snob until I went to a ski station with him in the Alps. Everyone I saw was safe and competent skiing. I go with him here, not the same.

Is it the same for horse sports? I suspect so. I had a french girl come stay a few summers ago. She had ridden *only* in riding clubs, 2 lessons a week, never owned her own horse or leased one. She was extremely competent. Knew what her outside aids were for, knew how to get the horse in front of her leg. Nothing they did bothered her. She told me that her level of competency was considered *low* at her club. She rode better than a lot of adult ammy's here do, that have been riding all their lives. She told me she had just been allowed to start jumping that year.

Is it bad? Is it wrong? I don't know. I do know that it just *is*. There does seem to be a big difference about the idea of something you do for fun. Europeans seem to think *competency* is fun. I think maybe they are brought up thinking that way. My kids are both athletic, my son snowboards, my daughter will ride, we let them have "fun" but not at the expense of learning to be competent. If they cannot take the time and put in the effort to be competent then they won't be participating in either of these dangerous sports.

Just some more thoughts on this subject.

[SaddleFitterVA]

it is "U.S.ians". (u-ess-ee-ans) (like canadian or russian - only say the actual letters 'U' 'S' then "ians" - easy :))

and i think it is pretty funny that you are so offended by it. I made it up when i was living in Canadia (yes, that is a joke too).... i just think it sounds.....less pretensious shall we say..... i find folks react to me a lot differently (when in another country) when i say i am a USian as opposed to an UNITED STATES CITIZEN or an AMERICAN...

but please - feel free NOT to use it it it upsets you so badly..... i wont be hurt ;)

Offended? By someone on the internet who thinks it is cool to make up their own acronym?

So, shall the Germans be...FRGians? And Brits be UKians?

Your cool is well....lacking.

But, go add it to Urbandictionary.com and you can take credit for it!

[freestyle2music]

Heeeeeeeh, I am a citizen of the Royal Kingdom of the Netherlands, but when somebody ask me "where you from" I tell them I am Dutch.;)

[mbm]

Offended? By someone on the internet who thinks it is cool to make up their own acronym?

So, shall the Germans be...FRGians? And Brits be UKians?

Your cool is well....lacking.

But, go add it to Urbandictionary.com and you can take credit for it!

folks can call themselves whatever they want...... who am i to give them grief for it?

as for the rest..... i am kinda surprised at your reaction and your post. dont you think it is a bit of an overreaction and that your calling my "coolness" into question over such a small thing is a bit, well, grumpy?

[FancyFree]

Offended? By someone on the internet who thinks it is cool to make up their own acronym?

So, shall the Germans be...FRGians? And Brits be UKians?

Your cool is well....lacking.

But, go add it to Urbandictionary.com and you can take credit for it!

Thank you.


"USians"

Really?

[Sabine]

Alagirl said:

"Jumping is the treat, dreassage the ground work. You don't get to jump before you can't sit trot and canter without popping the horse in the mouth. So yes, to get to jumping you have to have the discipline to make it through boring flatwork."

I haven't read this entire thread but I will say.. this is so true. The big threat here in America is - if you don't get my kid jumping immediately, I'll take her somewhere else. And they do. And so trainers have them learning to canter *off the jump* - it's crazy. $$$$$. If no one did it, no one would "have" to do it ;)

My husband is European. He plays a few sports and was absolutely gobsmacked at how incompetent so many ammy players of those sports are, when he came here. They didn't know the rules.. they didn't know the basics.. but by God, they were *playing*. Well, it's hard to play a sport with other people who are clueless. I thought he was being a snob until I went to a ski station with him in the Alps. Everyone I saw was safe and competent skiing. I go with him here, not the same.

Is it the same for horse sports? I suspect so. I had a french girl come stay a few summers ago. She had ridden *only* in riding clubs, 2 lessons a week, never owned her own horse or leased one. She was extremely competent. Knew what her outside aids were for, knew how to get the horse in front of her leg. Nothing they did bothered her. She told me that her level of competency was considered *low* at her club. She rode better than a lot of adult ammy's here do, that have been riding all their lives. She told me she had just been allowed to start jumping that year.

Is it bad? Is it wrong? I don't know. I do know that it just *is*. There does seem to be a big difference about the idea of something you do for fun. Europeans seem to think *competency* is fun. I think maybe they are brought up thinking that way. My kids are both athletic, my son snowboards, my daughter will ride, we let them have "fun" but not at the expense of learning to be competent. If they cannot take the time and put in the effort to be competent then they won't be participating in either of these dangerous sports.

Just some more thoughts on this subject.

your views are very 'sympatico'!! as I noticed before on some of the riding advice as well...but as a parent of 3 teen/twens I have to say - It is extremely hard to go against the grain in the US- the instant gratification- and the ONLY way I have found to do it effectively is- to be a strong role model yourself. Otherwise- they look at you as if you are friggin out of your mind...

[Alagirl]

Hmm, so because a few of you know a few people who aren't athletic fanatics, then all americans are lazy. Oh, riiiiight. Now I see it.

Americans are just sooo lazy. Guess that's why we've had the strongest economy for decades and have less vacation time than the average european. Hmm, I wonder if all those long hours in the office may have something to do with it. Hard to ride when one is working for a living and not taking month long vacations.

Btw, I have two relatives in Germany whose veterinary practices are mostly chiropractic work on horses. Hmm, and Dr. Gerd Heuschmann would tell you that he treats a LOT of injurred horses, injurred from doing dressage by those perfect European riders.

Btw, gross generalizations whether by oenself or others is still gross. This isn't a reality check. It's a put down. One some are obviously enjoying as, you know, america is soooo messed up.

I take from your sour notes that the comment has struck a nerve with you.

I am happy your 2 relatives have a nice go at it. I got more relatives than I can shake a stick at, actually on both sides of the Atlantic, both by blood and by marriage.

BTW the strong economy of the US about brought world economy to it's knees last summer, you must have missed that tit bit of news. Pretty much founded by the instant gratification vibe of the me generation left overs in big business, hell with working for your money, swindle it out of your company!

[ESG]

it is "U.S.ians". (u-ess-ee-ans) (like canadian or russian - only say the actual letters 'U' 'S' then "ians" - easy :))

and i think it is pretty funny that you are so offended by it. I made it up when i was living in Canadia (yes, that is a joke too).... i just think it sounds.....less pretensious shall we say..... i find folks react to me a lot differently (when in another country) when i say i am a USian as opposed to an UNITED STATES CITIZEN or an AMERICAN...

but please - feel free NOT to use it it it upsets you so badly..... i wont be hurt ;)

Sorry, but I think that's absolutely the silliest thing I've ever read. I'm an American. So are you. Do try not to "improve" on that, because you can't.

Carry on. :cool:

[ESG]

Maybe USains will catch on ;). I have often thought that American should include people from Canada, Mexico, Peru, etc. Citizen of the USA is a mouthful.
Theresa

Someone needs a globe, and some common sense. :rolleyes:

[Dirty Little Secret]

this is certainly a cross-disciplinary topic. Recently while attending a George Morris clinic this was addressed as an underlying theme of the entire weekend. George continued to speak of the lack of ambition and work ethic in young riders and how it was contributing to the demise of american riding. And as I watched the poorly schooled riders and horses I had to agree.

[mbm]

this thread came to mind this weekend..... i was discussing w/a friend ( a USian to boot) that youngsters nowadays dont seem to want to WORK for riding. It seems that in "the old days" kids would go to any barn that would have us and be the slave of the day - we would do anything just to hang out with horses and have the chance to ride..... ie: we were barn rats.

where are the barn rats nowadays? i rarely ever see any kid hanging out at the barn willing to do whatever just for the chance to be near horses... nowadays it seems folks want to get the benefit with out all the hard work.

seriously - the look of horror and confusion on some young folks' faces when i ask if they are interested in helping out would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

and disclaimer - of curse i am not talking about ALL young people now or then... it just seems like a trend.

[blackhorsegirl]

"Patience and persistence are vital qualities is the ultimate successful accomplishment of any worthwhile endeavor". These are the works of Joseph Pilates and they are good words to follow. If I work hard, my riding improves. If I slack off, it doesn't. It's as simple as that. When I read that the young people who win Olympic medals in skating and gymnastics or swimming practice 6 to 8 hours a day, it's enough to make me cry. Then again, I'm not 16 anymore. I'm 60. So I spend time riding and money taking lessons. That's how I improve.

[jcotton]

The lack of discipline goes into many areas of horses not just dressage.
I ride my two horses 5 days a week. My Welsh Cob -not necessarily built for dressage but works very hard for me, is a blast when it all clicks on something we have been dealing with.
The Holst cross with bitting issues--not the fun ride but everyday there is a minute improvement so in many, many years from now he will be much more rideable.
A very frustrating situation. Have I thought about giving up on him, yes, but he won't learn unless I spend hours & hours with him from lunging or riding and repetitiously re-enforcing the way I want it done.
Same thing with my yearling that would rather be a brat but he needs repetitious handling -yes, this is good and no, you can't do that ---Boundaries.

I understand Lars statement but some people are not as serious or have the committment to being as disciplined due to finances, time,...whatever they situation is. But if you know what you want you will do the best that you can with what you have.

One last thing, I am an American.
Stupid slang is just that, stupid slang.

[horsepix76]

I apologize. I haven't read each post. But I wanted to comment on the original post that started this thread. To me, in this case, discipline could also be called MASTERY. Mastery of anything is something that few people have the desire to achieve. And as someone else above stated, here in the US, we feel we have the right to participate and compete in any activity we choose. In fact, we even create baby-levels of activities so that everyone who wants to, can participate. That mindset is where the training & intro levels of dressage came from.

I encourage everyone who is serious about riding (or anything else) to read this book: Mastery by George Leonard. It is a very good read. Its also fairly short. He talks about the master's journey, the 5 keys to mastery and finally, the tools required for mastery. In short, Mastery discusses the 5 essential keys to mastery (instruction, practice, surrender, intentionality and the edge). There is also an entire chapter called "America's War Against Mastery" which hits (I think) exactly on what Lars Peterson was talking about and what another poster mentioned above. It doesn't talk at all about horses, but it is written in such a way that I couldn't help but think of dressage riders as I reading it. Those riders at the top have been through everything he talks about in this book. I highly recommend reading it!

Having been to Europe multiple times and married to a German (from Germany, not just a descendent), I can honestly say that they have an entirely different work ethic over there. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that until 30 years ago (fewer years in some cases), most everything that someone wanted do (train horses, dance, ice skate, etc.) was a state-sponsored activity. For the same reason that Europeans breed the best horses, they produce the best ______________ (riders, skaters, fill-in-the-blank). The state paid your way if you were good enough, which created competition for the limited number of state-sponsored positions, which forced people to chose one area in which to master and do nothing else (i.e. discipline). To some extent, it is still that way in much of Europe.

We simply don't have that type of foundation in the US; not in our breeding of horses, nor in the training of riders.

[spotted mustang]

Us ians..Americans...whatever...

trouble is, our country doesn't really have a name - united states of America is a description, not a name, and America is a continent.

"American" is like someone from Germany calling herself "European". Nothin' wrong with that of course, but it doesn't nail it down either.

So what to call it? <shrugs> who cares? though I admit USians sounds a bit silly.

[horsepix76]

"American" is like someone from Germany calling herself "European". Nothin' wrong with that of course, but it doesn't nail it down either.

Not quite. Germany, per your example, absolutely has its own regions and dialects. Chances are, in Germany, someone is more likely to call themselves a Prussian or a Bavarian than they are to call themselves a German. And a Prussian would be very offended if someone referred to them as a Bavarian (and vice versa).

[mbm]

So what to call it? <shrugs> who cares? though I admit USians sounds a bit silly.

too funny...:)

all i can say is that folks should relax - the USian thing is just a pet name i have for *myself* and it isnt meant as slang or derogatory etc..... my X -SO was Canadian and i lived in Canada for a while... and this was during the aftermath of 9/11 and invasion of Iraq etc. . when folks would ask me where was from - i just thought it was yucky sounding (and pretentious) to say i was a united states citizen or an american ... so i came up with what i thought was a cute, ice breaking, description.

i am really gobsmacked at how folks are reacting to it...... not sure what it means - but it is kinda sad tho.

i guess i dont understand the need some folks have to be so negative and just plain cranky and not nice for no apparent reason.

like i said - if you dont like it - dont say it! i never intended for this to be about my pet names - it slipped..... so sue me ;)

[magnolia73]

I think he uses the wrong word- lack of discipline seems to conjure up laziness. I think we tend to lack FOCUS. IE, we do a lot of things. Very few people in the US have the ability to focus on riding solely. Even trainers must focus on building a business, generally around clients who do a lot of different things. How many have the luxury of focusing on training an upper level horse to compete with no distractions like sales, coaching, running a barn, training a greenie....

Personally, I like being able to ride, dabble in dressage and jumping, hit the trails, go home and run in a 5k, bake a cake, make some pottery, travel, socialize with friends. I do realize it means I will likely never master any of those things- but I enjoy them nonetheless.

I don't think it is a shortcoming, per se. Just a difference in cultures. I don't think that an inability to win a gold medal in dressage holds us back, and if someone so desires to have a strong focus, they are able to.

I think our culture has its shortcomings- but it also has created very creative workforce with a high degree problem solving ability. Totally think it is the ability to think out of the box and change course quickly when needed. I think a lot of that has to do with how we dabble in things and choose not to get too bogged down into details.

[ESG]

Well, magnolia73, I think you've just illustrated Lars' opinion perfectly with this statement:
"I think a lot of that has to do with how we dabble in things, and choose not to get too bogged down into details."

Um, in case no one's told you? Dressage is details. Good thing all you want to do is dabble. :p

[spotted mustang]

Not quite. Germany, per your example, absolutely has its own regions and dialects. Chances are, in Germany, someone is more likely to call themselves a Prussian or a Bavarian than they are to call themselves a German. And a Prussian would be very offended if someone referred to them as a Bavarian (and vice versa).


only when talking to other Germans :) When talking to someone from another country, I'd say I'm "German". "Westphalian" wouldn't mean anything to them :D

[meupatdoes]

Someone needs a globe, and some common sense. :rolleyes:

Uh, if you look at this globe whereof you speak, Canada is in North AMERICA.

Brazil is in South AMERICA.


The AMERICAS are continents.
Everyone who lives on the North and South American continents is American.

[slc2]

Can't say I've ever heard anyone from South America refer to themselves as American, or show any enjoyment at being told they're 'American'. America, despite the names of the two continents, is used for a specific country - USA.

[meupatdoes]

Can't say I've ever heard anyone from South America refer to themselves as American, or show any enjoyment at being told they're 'American'. America, despite the names of the two continents, is used for a specific country - USA.

Actually, many members of other American cultures find it offensive that USAmericans seem to think they are the only "Americans".

See for example one of Chilean artist Alfredo Jaar's most well-known works entitled "This is Not America", the point of which is to express exactly that sentiment:

http://www.tabacalera.eu/english/actividades.php?op=3&show=Exhibition&img=372&ref=49&ext_int=int

(That piece originally appeared in the form of a computerized light board over Times Square.)

See also:
http://www.translocal-practices.net/?p=239

So there's one person from South America you've now heard of who does not believe "America" should be reserved solely for the USA.

[ESG]

Uh, if you look at this globe whereof you speak, Canada is in North AMERICA.

Brazil is in South AMERICA.


The AMERICAS are continents.
Everyone who lives on the North and South American continents is American.

Someone needs a globe and some common sense. Read it again. :D

[meupatdoes]

Someone needs a globe and some common sense. Read it again. :D

Look up one post.

[MistyBlue]

A discussion on nationalities? :lol: This forum be funny. :winkgrin:

FWIW...Being an "American" is perfectly correct but all that does for this country is name our living location/citizenship. It's not an actual nationality for probably 99.9% of the Americans. So if someone asks you where you're from...you'd say "America" or more accurately "I'm from the US." And most US citizens have different original nationalities. I'm English and Polish for example. I'm American by birth location, taxes, citizenship...ie an American citizen. If I were outside the country and people asked what I am I'd say I'm from the USA, not that I was an American because there really aren't that many left.

[freestyle2music]

06.00 Getting out of bed cleaning 5 stables and feeding 5 horses
06.22 Bringing two horses to the pasture
07.00 Making breakfast for Hubby and Kids
07.30 Taking a shower and dress up
07.45 Preparing two horses for their training
08.00 Loading two horses on the truck and driving to the manege
08.20 till 10.20 Training the two horses
10.30 Washing and cleaning the horses
10.50 Loading two horses on the truck to go back home
11.10 Putting the horses under the solarium
12.00 Collecting the kids from school
12.30 Lunch
13.00 Collecting two horses from the pasture, wash and clean them
13.20 Feed the horses
13.40 Preparing our youngster for lunging
14.00 Lung our youngster
14.45 Loading two horses on the truck and driving to the manege
15.00 till 17.00 Training the two horses
17.00 Washing and cleaning the horses
17.20 Loading two horses on the truck to go back home
17.40 Putting two horses under the solarium
17.40 Making diner for hubby and kids
18.00 Feed the horses
18.00 Having diner
18.30 Hubby take out two horses for a bikeride
19.00 Taking a shower and preparing to give lessons to my clients
19.15 Drive to the manege
19.30 Training the first student
20.30 Training the second student
21.30 Training the third student
22.30 Giving homework for the students
23.00 Driving Home, Watching the news
23.45 Going to bed to find out that hubby still loves me.

Did I tell you that at some days the dentist, blacksmith, and vet is visiting us.
And did I tell you that my husband cleans the stables, feed the horses, clean the horsetruck and repairs everything these four legged guys have damaged, and put them to bed. Did I mention that horses don't take summer and wintertime in account !

And did I tell you that I also have some students that don't have discipline and call me several times a week that they have a diner, party or birthday celebration and ask me to ride their horses. And did I tell you that many students call me at 6.00 in the morning (on my only day off) , because they have to go to competition and ask my assistance to get their horse loaded on the trailer or truck. Lack of discipline is in the person. :yes:

[SaddleFitterVA]

Questions from a working American to the Dutch...

That schedule looks positively glamorous to me. Why, I am thinking there would be a lot more Americans with enough the discipline to keep that schedule, if they didn't have work. The number of American riders I know who do NOT have outside employement is very small. The ones who are attempting to make it in the horse industry have benefactors, sponsors, trust funds, or ride 10 horses a day, then start teaching 5-8 lessons a day in addition to that.

Are those 5 horses private horses or is she being paid to train/ride them?

In which case, do the owners of the horses ride them also?

How old are the children? Who looks after them after noon, when she goes to pick them up?

Since I don't believe that even a frugal Dutch person could afford that lifestyle by teaching 3 riding lessons a day, she either has a sponsor (could just be the husband) or some other form of income, that is not earned (trust fund?).

My schedule has:
5:30-6:00am, get up, get coffee, head outside to take care of 6 horses.
6:30-7:15, horse care/feeding.
7:15-8:30 riding, one or sometimes 2.
8:30-9:00 get showered and ready for work.
9:00-9:35 drive to work
9:35-6:00 working
6:00-6:45 drive home
6:45-7:00 get changed, possibly grab a snack.
7:00-8:30 some nights...cook and eat dinner - especially in winter
7:00-8:30 or 9:00 some nights, ride one or 2 more, putting up single light in barn loft to illuminate 95% of ring.
5:00-9pm once a week, haul to lesson (hour each way, go w/ friend so takes 2 hours for both lessons)
9:00-10 go inside, make some food if I need leftovers.
10-11, visit with teenage son/husband/computer/tv
11:00pm go to bed

That whole working thing...it totally puts a cramp in the "ahem" discipline needed to ride 4 horses a day in addition to running the farm and caring for 6 horses.

In winter, just layering and unlayering and changing clothes adds a good 20 minutes to the day.

3x a week I squeeze in 45 minutes to an hour in for a workout.

I have absolutely no illusions in my mind that I will ever have the means to pursue riding full time or ride internationally. So, I will plod along, riding the horses I have, that I can afford, taking as many lessons as I can afford, and sometimes, I will take a day off from riding and attempt to remind my husband why he married me 20 years ago.:winkgrin:

[freestyle2music]

How about 18 student-lessons a week
equals US$ 1000,= a week ;)

Isn't that work ?

[SaddleFitterVA]

I guess it is a lot less expensive over there, because 1000/week, pre taxes would not go far towards keeping and competing 5 horses.

1000/week, assuming 2 household incomes.

Teaching 18 lessons a week is a light, part time job in my world, and once again, that schedule looks very do-able, without a lot of so-called "discipline". It even includes time to prepare meals and eat.

I'm not knocking it, I'd take that lifestyle in a heartbeat, but I'm just pointing out that it is often not lack of "discipline" that causes issues, but lack of "money".

[freestyle2music]

Ever heard of sponsors ?

And what about horseowners who pay Euro 2000,= a month when you stable and ride their horses.

But you probably are missing the whole point !

[Ambrey]

Ever heard of sponsors ?


How many US riders do you think have sponsors who make any real dent in the costs of living and competing?

[SaddleFitterVA]

No, I am not missing your point. You feel that your sister works hard, and she does.

I think you are missing my point, which is that most American riders do not have the financial means to pursue riding to the level that your sister does.

But, it is a bit like that schedule they posted for Hillary Dobbs...oh look how busy the Harvard student is, and she is a successful grand prix jumper rider!

Rather than scorning those amateurs who work hard to have horses, struggle to ride and work...oh, and incidentally provide an awful lot of income to the pros who get paid to teach them, as having no discipline, go compare apples to apples.

JJ Tate, a younger rider in the USA, who is making progress and has made it to show internationally at least once...she rides 8-10 horses a day, has to have well more than 5 in her barn, and then she teaches 5-8 lessons a day. But, I bet she'd think that the light schedule that you posted is nice too. So would any number of other riders who are struggling as young pros in the field.

I think that you'll find that when all the time and money constraints are equal, there is an equivalent level of success, regardless of the nationality of the rider.

[UT]

It may be more than just discipline. It may be opportunities or lack of. The Europeans have a system setup for centuries. I will have loved to start my riding experience as an AA on the lounge line. Where are the school horses appropriate for lounging lessons?
I am not sure Europe has as many AAs starting to ride as an adult. What we need is a better system across the country where kids and adults can learn correctly.
Lendon Gray is the only one who seems to be willing to setup a systematic means for kids to learn. There is nothing comparable to that on the west coast. Instead of giving excuses or reasons that there are not the depth of riders in dressage as there is in europe, we need a better system to develope the skills, and eventually we will have the numbers. The other side of the argument is that everything European is superior. I do not buy that either.
If I were not a physician, working 60 to 80 hour weeks, and driving 110 miles each way on weekends to ride my horses, I would love to apply to be Lendon's working student ( that does not mean i will qualify to be one)

[Coreene]

trouble is, our country doesn't really have a name - united states of America is a description, not a name, and America is a continent.How interesting. And how abolutely incorrect.

[slc2]

For some reason people often think 'the other guy's' schedule is SOOO easy, LOL!

I think the bottom line is that for most AMERICANS (LOL) in the USA, dressage riding is a relatively new and unknown pursuit. They don't really understand what it takes to excel at it, and if someone tells them what it takes, they simply don't accept that.

I think that's where the 'grass roots' dressage really came from, because people just would not accept what it requires, and if they knew, they wouldn't really LIKE what it takes. So they basically created their own brand of dressage, to conform to what they believe it should be, and how it should be done.

When people from other countries see it, I think they're a wee bit gobsmacked. And I think that grass roots affects even some of our elite riders....for a short time, LOL.

[Jenn2674]

I really wonder if it isn't so much discipline as it is the kind of mentality you have to have for dressage to exceed at the top levels. Lack of discipline doesn't explain why Americans (as in USians) continue to dominate at all kinds of other sports. I mean would you say that the Germans lack discipline because they don't dominate swimming or golf or track and field? Of course they have had individuals that have excelled at those sports but do they dominate it? of course not.

Some of it could be culture. Does the german government or companies sponser more dressage than American companies? We all know it costs a whole lot of money, so perhaps there is a lack of money there. This probably goes along the same line as why we will never excel at soccer aka football. Even though soccer is a great sport and has gotten bigger as a whole, it just isn't something the US cares about like they do football, basketball, or baseball.

There are thousands of prodigies in the US so to say that as a whole we lack discipline, is a bit inaccurate I think.

And for what its worth, I think it is important to expose children to all kinds of things. And when that one in a million child really, really excells at something and enjoys it, then is the time to encourage and push them in one sport. They will never know what they will like and what they will excell at until they are exposed to several different things.

[SaddleFitterVA]

slc2,

I was not comparing my schedule to the posted person's to say mine is harder. But, the pros I know here...who ride 8-10 horses a day, then teach 5 ore more lessons a day in addition to riding the 8-10....Well, that just looks a little more hectic to me.

My new shorter commute has made my schedule much nicer...but I still maintain that I would be a much more focused rider with only 4 horses to ride and 3 lessons to teach, with time for meals and the kid.

I also have no illusions of grandeur. I will not be in the Olympics for dressage. If the crazy people of the horse world feel I'm an undisciplined failure because of that, I'm ok with that. I'll plug along doing my shows on my unsuitable horse who quite enjoys her job, take my terrible, cannot ride, scores, and keep riding so long as it is enjoyable.

[spotted mustang]

18.30 Hubby take out two horses for a bikeride


I know I'm straying a bit off topic here, but how does one take 2 horses for a bikeride? Been trying to conjure up a mental picture...Intrigued...? :)

[freestyle2music]

slc2,

I was not comparing my schedule to the posted person's to say mine is harder. But, the pros I know here...who ride 8-10 horses a day, then teach 5 ore more lessons a day in addition to riding the 8-10....Well, that just looks a little more hectic to me.

My new shorter commute has made my schedule much nicer...but I still maintain that I would be a much more focused rider with only 4 horses to ride and 3 lessons to teach, with time for meals and the kid.

I also have no illusions of grandeur. I will not be in the Olympics for dressage. If the crazy people of the horse world feel I'm an undisciplined failure because of that, I'm ok with that. I'll plug along doing my shows on my unsuitable horse who quite enjoys her job, take my terrible, cannot ride, scores, and keep riding so long as it is enjoyable.

It's not a secret that I spend a lot of hours at various professional stables. And it makes a lot of difference if you can jump from one horse on another.
Warm up and cool down is done by stable riders, students etc.., preparing the horse cleaning, washing etc... is done by the grooms.

If you have to do this all by yourself it takes at least two hours per horse.

[quietann]

slc2...

I think a lot of people *know* "what it takes" to be a top-level dressage rider, and they decide to do dressage anyway. I am certainly in that category; I also have no delusions of grandeur, and my horse and I are both benefiting from dressage. My trainer likes us (the horse moreso than me, WRT ability :sadsmile: ) and isn't turning us away just because my goals are modest and the time I have to put into attaining them is limited. In fact, she'd be more likely to turn away someone with immodest goals and limited time.

Especially at the lower-levels, it can benefit any horse and rider to get some dressage training. As gets said in the eventing world whenever the "smurfs" discussion comes up and people start complaining about "those riders who stay stuck at Novice for years," THOSE are the people who are paying the bills! And some of them are not "stuck" at Novice; they choose to remain at that level for various reasons. The system, such as it is, needs the low level people and it ought to treat them well.

[millerra]

When I read about discipline w/r/t to riding dressage, I think it refers to making sure every transition is correct, and if its not -doing it again. Discipline is always asking the horse for a response from lighter aids, more correct carriage, more engagement when schooling dressage. It's the mental focus to make sure everything is going as well as possible every single moment during a schooling session.

I admit, I have trouble w/ this form of discipline. The busy day, the sick kid, the other horse tend to push into my brain when I'm riding at times. And so, no, my riding isn't always as disciplined as it should be. I still think I should be allowed to ride and compete at dressage, though, if for no other reason than I want to and can afford to and have fun doing it.

And if that lack of discipline won't allow me to become a top rider, well, I have to say - that's the least of things holding me back! [in case you haven't guessed, a lack of talent would be a primary reason!]

[Ambrey]

And if that lack of discipline won't allow me to become a top rider, well, I have to say - that's the least of things holding me back! [in case you haven't guessed, a lack of talent would be a primary reason!]

This goes back to the crux of the initial post. Is it talent or hard work that makes a good rider?

I think the posters on the thread are talking past each other- Theo is talking about professionals, while the vast majority of the posters here are amateurs- meaning that by definition they earn their living by a means other than horses.

I just wanted to mention something discussed in a previous thread- about the equestrian opportunities for youth. In the US, the ability to ride and train as a child is something reserved for people in higher socioeconomic classes. I think that limits the pool of people who enter young adulthood with the background needed to become professional riders.

[freestyle2music]

All over the world this whole discpline thing is a very hot and difficult subject. It's hard to find junior and youngriders who can find a good balance between wealth and discipline. After 25 years of experience with these youngsters I can guarantee you that money very often can get in the way of becoming a toprider.

Theo

[Ambrey]

So maybe the secret to better riders is making the sport more available to those without money in the family? ;)

[Eventer13]

So maybe the secret to better riders is making the sport more available to those without money in the family? ;)

I think that has a lot to do with it. If it were available to the number of kids that, say, basketball is available to, the talent pool would greatly widen. You would be able to remove those that are not "serious" or "disciplined" or even athletic enough and still have a large group of potential olympic athletes. There would be more competition, which would raise the standards. And kids would be exposed to dressage (or any riding discipline) at a very young age, and get quality instruction, which would also be a boost.

There are plenty of kids willing to work their butts off while riding, with FOCUS, but are limited because they dont have the money.

Then you have the mentality that riding "isnt a real sport," and I think that does two things: 1) attracts kids who want to do it for fun, once a week, like ballet or piano lessons and 2) looses a lot of potential talent because you take out half the population (the boys) who dont want to participate

There are *plenty* of kids willing to work hard and devote themselves to one sport, but dont have the money, exposure, or understanding of dressage to go out and participate.

[siegi b.]

I think the reason we don't have many kids anxious to be around horses anymore is because the society we live in likes to sue at the drop of a hat. God forbid your kid should fall off a horse!! The parents will sue for millions because the kid missed a couple of sessions in the gifted class and will now be stupid for the rest of his life. :-)

We're turning our kids into over-weight couch potatoes that sit in front of the TV or PC screen for hours on end munching on chips and drinking soda. And that's what we call "keeping them safe!"

Sorry for the rant.....

[freestyle2music]

I think the reason we don't have many kids anxious to be around horses anymore is because the society we live in likes to sue at the drop of a hat. God forbid your kid should fall off a horse!! The parents will sue for millions because the kid missed a couple of sessions in the gifted class and will now be stupid for the rest of his life. :-)

We're turning our kids into over-weight couch potatoes that sit in front of the TV or PC screen for hours on end munching on chips and drinking soda. And that's what we call "keeping them safe!"

Sorry for the rant.....


I agree with the lawsuits thing. At least I know two Olympic riders in the US who don't take students only for that reason.

[Coreene]

I know I'm straying a bit off topic here, but how does one take 2 horses for a bikeride? Been trying to conjure up a mental picture...Intrigued...? :)You ride the bike, hold the leadrope and the horse trots next to you. Two horses, you ride in the middle. Have not done it with two, but have biked with several Dutch cousins' horses.

[rothmpp]

I find this attitude of 'lack of exposure and opportunity' actually kind of sad. Everyone does not get to do everything in life. I grew up in the flat midwest. I'm never going to be a world class surfer. Should I demand an ocean be installed 5 miles from my house? I really don't understand where this "everyone should get everything they want" attitude developed. It is part of what brought the current financial crisis on the country. When I was young, I worked my butt off at a barn for the opportunity to ride anything that was available. As so many have said, many kids today don't think they should have to work that hard. The owner at my barn would be thrilled to teach a couple of kids lessons on her own nice horses in exchange for work. As it is, she can't find the barn help she really needs. Another teenager I knew was offered the opportunity to make a horse her own projectfor the summer, and when the horse was sold, she would get the commission for the sale. She rode the horse for about a week.

If we're talking about adults, I think that the original quote should be viewed as "For all you AA riders that can only get to the barn 3 times a week, you're not going to be an olympic rider. Stop whining about not being able to ride your hot, fancy horse well unless you can commit way more time to the process. For the average kid out there who wants to be the next Lisa or Debbie or Steffen, however hard you work on your riding now, be prepared to quadruple it. And then hope that everything breaks the right way for you. There is no easy solution."

I work with a trainer at the gym one day a week. Out of the blue today, she was commenting about how some new clients want instant results, including a woman that she worked with once who was one of those super thin types. The woman brought in a picture of Madonna and said, "I want those arms in a month." Pretty telling about the current culture.

[freestyle2music]

You ride the bike, hold the leadrope and the horse trots next to you. Two horses, you ride in the middle. Have not done it with two, but have biked with several Dutch cousins' horses.

He is a four in hand rider and a stallion runner :yes: and he doesn't have any problem with it. :D

[spotted mustang]

You ride the bike, hold the leadrope and the horse trots next to you. Two horses, you ride in the middle. Have not done it with two, but have biked with several Dutch cousins' horses.


how cool! Bikejoring with horses? I loff it! I do this with my dog, and I have a hard time to handle her and not tie myself and the bike in a knot, but two horses ?!?

Gotta ask though...if you have one horse in each hand and ride in the middle..uh..who holds on to the handlebar :D

[freestyle2music]

how cool! Bikejoring with horses? I loff it! I do this with my dog, and I have a hard time to handle her and not tie myself and the bike in a knot, but two horses ?!?

Gotta ask though...if you have one horse in each hand and ride in the middle..uh..who holds on to the handlebar :D

If you can handle 4 or 8 horses in two hands it's not so difficult to handle two very calm and quiet handlebars and two lines with two crazy horses at the end. :D

OH did I already tell you that one is a 24 Yr old stallion of 1.84 mtrs and the other a 5 Yr old stallion of 1.79 mtrs. :yes: But they both have a lot of discipline !

[Sabine]

Love your new sig line Theo and must say the feel on this thread during the past 2 pages - is really GREAT!!! love the international exchange and connection..and the fun stuff discussed...;)!
carry on!

[spotted mustang]

theo - I'd love to see a pic/video of this! What if one of the horses shies or tugs on the line? Don't you go flying off the bike? That's what happens to me when my dog goes after a squirrel, and she's only about 4 hands at the wither

I DO know if I tried this with my horse, they'd find pieces of me in the next 3 counties.:D

[SaddleFitterVA]

If was a better bicycle rider I'd have no problem doing this with most of the horses in my barn. The youngest would take a bit of work.

The horse should be attentive to the handler/rider, always. That would include on the lead.

That is one thing that does baffle me about many "discipline" crazy DQs...they insist on perfection under saddle, yet let the horse be a PITA on the ground. Why is rooting away from you when in hand any less offensive than rooting the reins away under saddle?