tell me about the 'toe flick' please

[buck22]

I know nothing. I've heard its good, I've heard its horrible. I don't know why its good, I don't know why its horrible. My intention is not to start a heated debate, I am honestly just curious.

thanks.

[Tonja]

If by “toe flick” you are meaning the front toes of the horse are flicking to the front in the trot (so that the horse's front shoes are visible from the front), this is caused by hyperextension of the horse’s front legs. When the horse’s energy is being blocked from traveling freely through its body, its front legs are flung forward and the legs hyperextend, instead of being carried forward in a smooth arc.

When the front toes are ‘flicking’, the hind toes are usually also flipping to the back (pushing instead of carrying) http://www.ridingart.com/toe-flip.htm

[slc2]

Buck22, it depends on what 'toe flick' means.

If it means that a well trained older schoolmaster with a novice rider on his back is 'coasting' and not working properly, it's not much of a big deal. The rider will learn in due time to ride better; no problem. If it's at a horse show and your pal is beating his chest about how bad everyone else rides, it's time to give them another wine cooler and hope for the only possible good outcome, that you can get them drunk enough that they pass out and stay passed out for the rest of the afternoon.

MOST riders, for quite some time, even years, all they can possibly do, is get that toe flicking kind of stride from a horse. It takes a long time to learn to do better.

If it's a professional trainer on the horse and it's YOUR horse going like that all the time, it's possible it's time to have a Dear John with the trainer. It can be pretty hard to teach a horse that is taught to go incorrectly, to redo his training and teach him the right way.

SOME horses will never EVER be able to do an extended trot, no matter how carefully they are trained. Some horses, all they can do is a medium or lengthening. Horses have their limitations. They'll ALWAYS flick their toes and have problems. The horse can still be a very useful schoolmaster and score moderately well at local shows. No big deal.

Generally, people are referring to the foreleg being rigidly thrown forward, and the hoof flicks upward so that someone standing in front of the horse (shortly before they get run over) can see all or nearly all of the horse's front horseshoes.

You can very often see this when the horse is not pushing sufficiently with his hind legs when he is asked to do a stronger trot, either a lengthened, medium or extended trot. It can be because his back and hind leg muscles haven't been developed properly, because he's losing his balance (incorrect riding), because the rider is pushing him beyond that point where he can balance, etc.

But it tends to be the most obvious in the extended trot which the horse starts to develop around third level.

You can ALSO see the toe flick in some horses that are working fairly well, and just don't have their full strength or are getting a little excited and tight in the shoulder, or even, the rider isn't quite keeping them balanced by coordinating the use of his seat, leg and rein. It's VERY hard to tell the difference between 'on the right track and just being a little excited' vs 'really on the wrong track and a big problem'.

What you can see is the hind leg will not be driving forward as hard as the foreleg and shoulder are working, it will seem to pause or not move as fast as the foreleg (be careful, the foreleg can easily look quicker-moving just because it's more straightened out). If you can see the footprint of the front foot on the ground, you won't see the hind foot landing forward enough; it should be landing quite near the print of the forefoot, ideally, in that hoof print or even in exceptional cases, a little further forward.

IF a horse is very, very light in front, and his hind legs are really driving, he can get some lightening of the shoulders and foreleg, so that the foreleg can lift quite a bit in the extended trot. So getting out the ruler and looking for hind and foreleg cannons to stay exactly parallel doesn't always work. SOMETIMES the raised foreleg is due to incorrectly working, dragging hind legs, SOMETIMES, it's the culmination of 'lightening the forehand' by the correct work of the hind legs and back.

The IDEAL is that rather than the forefoot being flicked upward by the shoulder and forearm muscles tightening up and the knee lowered so the foreleg is very straight, the foreleg is gracefully lifted, the knee is lifted, and instead of the toe being pulled up, the toe points DOWN - to a spot on the ground and lands on that spot on the ground.

[Gucci Cowgirl]

telling people that their horse needs to be "very, very light" in front is often a big mistake. Since we are addressing an insufficient execution of a required movement starting at first level (lengthened stride) I think it's best to focus on the amount of throughness it requires to get a horse "very, very" connected to the bridle from the hindleg first. People who try to make their horses really light in the hand because that's what everyone tells them is ideal are usually the ones who have problems like toe-flicking.

OP, just work on throughness and impulsion and connection - the toe flicking will take care of itself once proper connection is there.

[buck22]

OP, just work on throughness and impulsion and connection - the toe flicking will take care of itself once proper connection is there.
^^ ha, I'm not at this point yet personally, toe flicking isn't an actual concern for me.

But I'm trying to learn more about correctness, I want to be able to distinguish more accurately between the correct and not so correct - sometimes that can be tricky.

I was under the impression that a toe flick is essentially wasted energy. But I see significant flicking going on at higher levels, and I've heard people remark on how 'powerful' the horse must be because 'look at that flick!'. Toe flicking, in the sense that you all are describing, doesn't *feel* right to me, but I had no way to explain to myself why.:(

I'm doing my best to burn the images of good habits and correct movement into my brain :D when working solo, without a trainer, its very easy to get caught up in a bad habit and not know.

thankyou every one so much.

[slc2]

'Look at that toe flick' is a phrase some people use just to mean the foreleg brought energetically forward.

But a great many people DO think when the foot flips up and the foreleg is jammed straight, that that's 'good'.

But people think a great many wrong things about dressage -


that reins hanging down loose is 'self carriage'
that 'back to front' means you never touch the reins, and that 'front to back' doesn't exist
that half halts happen by maginc
that getting a horse's nose in is the be all and end all of dressage
that ying-yangin' back and forth on the reins is correct training as long as it's 'gentle'
that pirouettes that look like a series of mini-rears are correct
that a piaffe where the forelegs are 1 inch from the hind legs is 'classical'
that crouching hind quarters and mincing tiny steps are 'collection'
that a passage where the horse holds its legs up motionless and drops its back and hind quarters is done with good suspension
that the extended trot should be in slow motion
that you train a horse without ever using your legs, seat or reins
that just by breathing and sort of thinking about it you get a good position
that it's never any work or effort
that you don't need a good trainer, you can just read books and watch videos
that a novice rider can progress on a few lessons a year
that only non-competitive riders are any good
that all the judges are blind...


honey, the list goes on and on and on and on.

[JMurray]

This is something I am interested in knowing more about too.

Over on the "Andalusian and Lusitanos in Dressage" thread this link was one of those posted with a photo of a PRE. I am bringing it over to this thread because it seems to be an extreme example of the toe flick.

Can someone break down this picture for me and talk about what is happening to cause this in the photo?

http://www.elpre.com/media/fotos/brcxopkl.jpg


Much appreciated!!

[buck22]

^^^ thank you jmurray! thats exactly waht I wanted to discuss.... thank you!


But a great many people DO think when the foot flips up and the foreleg is jammed straight, that that's 'good'.
I'm surrounded by this sort of thought :( thats why I'll likely be presenting questions along these lines with regularity here.


that pirouettes that look like a series of mini-rears are correct

Right?!?!?!? not that your list wasn't spot on, but seriously ^^^^^ wtf?:(

I saw a lovely lovely lovely cp on youtube once (I cannot find the vid now, it was under 30 seconds) it was simply delightful... the team cantered along, paused for a moment to execute the pirouette, and then just continued on their merry way as if the detour was just a simple sight seeing, etc, as if the movement practically never existed, as natural as the canter itself, with a sense of abandon.... it was gorgeous. It is etched in my mind.

[slc2]

In a proper pirouette, the horse's shoulders and neck do not go up and down like a pump handle. In a proper collected canter, the horse's head and neck don't go up and down too.

In a proper canter pirouette horse looks like he is cantering, and just for a second, someone holds onto his tail, and he goes cantering around in a tiny little circle, with his hind feet making a circle the size of a dinner plate. In a competition, few people take the risk of losing the canter rhythm or stepping backwards, and make a little larger circle with the hind legs, but still get a lot of points for maintaining the canter gait and the rhythm.

Some mistakes are a lot more important than others. Dane Rawlin's 'Priority Points' goes into that. First maintain the rhythm and the gait and the figure, then start whittling away at all the nice stuff.

It isn't good to get so you expect too much from most riders you see, buck22. You don't often see 100% correct work or really superior tests, and at each stage, there are mistakes that are very normal and expected. Most people are learning. That they stay in the ring and do the work, that's good enough.

[JMurray]

bump...

Back to the toe flick please!!

Any folks want to give buck22 and I a critique of the link? and a mechanical breakdown of what is happening to cause the horse to do this in front.

http://www.elpre.com/media/fotos/brcxopkl.jpg

[slc2]

THAT horse looks fine. Other than him needing to open the angle of his head and neck a little more, so his nose is a little more forward, there is no indication of anything incorrect in that picture, though it is a pretty bad picture and not from the right angle, the hind legs still look very, very good and very reaching and quick, and he's about a half a mile off the ground, his toe is lifting a LITTLE but everything else is very good and the hind feet are going to overstep the prints fo the forefeet. JUST because the foreleg is straight doesn't mean it's wrong. You have to look at the whole horse.

SOME horses always reach the peak of their extended trot stride with a straight leg if they just don't naturally move with a very high lifted knee or are greener at that level. That doesn't mean they're incorrect.

When the hind feet land a foot and a half short of the prints of the front feet, when the knee is driven downward and the hind legs drag along, THAT'S incorrect.

Currently, if you go to www.google.com, click 'images' and type in the search phrase, 'extended trot' and hit go, you will get 20 pictures of extended trot, all of them correct for that horse, only one a little wtf looking. You cannot judge horses with a ruler and a pencil, the eye has to develop over time and learn to see the whole horse.

[Tonja]

A pirouette that look likes a series of mini-rears is called a ‘rearouette’ :winkgrin:

[JMurray]

Okay so you are saying that photo in my post is not an example of a toe flick. I was always told that was an example of a toe flick where you can almost see the shoe.

Now I am confused.

[technopony]

How about these?

Horse #1:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=41363250&l=e5eb5&id=5743445

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=37700368&l=37e22&id=5743445

Vs.

Horse #2 (who shows better push behind)
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=35743613&l=b3440&id=5743445


Horse # 1 is an older schoolmaster, Horse #2 is green.

[slc2]

What I think I see is a rider learning to ride on a trained horse. The horse IS 'flicking the toe', that is how it looks, and you can see the inactive hind leg very obviously in the first picture.

As I said, you need to consider the situation. That's a normal thing to happen when a rider is learning. You can't really (at least reasonably) expect anything else. At that level, if the rider gets the horse to do a little bit of a longer stride, that's all you can expect. Please, folks, don't be too hard on people who are learning, or expect them to make the horse go better than is reasonable to expect.

As I said, to evaluate what's happening, you need to look at the whole horse, and ideally, NOT a photo, which prevents you from seeing the whole stride, and how the entire set of mechanics come together.

With the grey horse, as i said, the toe is lifting, but it is not really a sign of a problem. That isn't a true toe flick that is just a symptom of a much bigger mess, this is just a 'moment'. It cannot be otherwise, not when the hind legs are doing their job as they clearly are there. Some horses just wobble the hoof a little when they are reaching to their utmost, some horses are very loose in the foot; the toe doesn't come up because it's being drawn up by incorrect action behind and shoulder tensing due to loss of balance, it just wobbles up and perhaps the photographer snaps the shot right then.

Again, you have to look at the WHOLE STRIDE. Is the knee being driven down as the horse reaches forward, and the leg hyperextended so the knee looks 'back at the knee', and the shoulder joint stiffened, with the shoulder motion jerking forward, as the horse attempts to balance himself by tightening his neck and back muscles? Is the hind leg driving forward without a single pause in its motion, or just dragging or pausing in midair?

This is why it is dangerous to look for infinitesimal angles in a photograph, and why people who dissect too much get into trouble, and also why they look around them and see every rider and every horse as imperfect and are always saying how wrong everyone is.

This horse and rider are wonderfully balanced, with the horse reaching forward and active, quick hind legs.

Dissecting too much teaches you to focus too much on minute details instead of looking at the entire horse. You start getting your eye very distorted and missing the bigger picture.

The photo, even when bad lookin, has to be given credit as a moment in time; Neil Blake made a lengthy photo essay of the same horse and rider, one picture showing major faults in a movement and the next near perfection, with both photos often taken during the same test or even during the same three minutes; the key is not what every moment looks like, but what many moments look like together.

Straight foreleg, toe coming up, and yet a perfect moderately extended trot:

http://newspringfarm.com/images/baron_verdi/baron_extended_trot.jpg

On the left, an awkward looking moment of a beautiful extended trot during a test in a top international competition that was a personal best, where the leg is loose and brought forward quickly, so the toe tips up, but the haunches and back and shoulder are working correctly.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.eurodressage.com/images/2005/05wiesbaden/linsenhoff_9602.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2005/may_wiesbaden-photo.html&usg=__jsGm-v1VE9oukCBPnemRvY2cWJ4=&h=320&w=250&sz=37&hl=en&start=9&tbnid=MLxFTpUSZyuGyM:&tbnh=118&tbnw=92&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dextended%2Btrot%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%2 6client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DG

A beautiful classical photo from Nancy Later(amazing woman):

http://www.nancylaterdressagehorses.com/images/2004_cover.jpg

Watch the warmup (watch it all if you have time, it's quite nice), again, the toe comes up infinitesimally, but the hind legs, back and shoulder are correct:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKbqokuTzh8&feature=PlayList&p=F413E65CD75AFF6D&playnext=1&index=17

Donnerwetter, an absolutely perfect example of a 'loose foot' that is on a very correctly working horse:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPVvEuDe3mk&feature=PlayList&p=F413E65CD75AFF6D&index=16

[Fantastic]

technopony wrote:

How about these?

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...e22&id=5743445

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...eb5&id=5743445

Just throwing them out there as a good example of the "toe flick". Especially the first picture, where there are a lot of wrong things going on... but I will leave the discussion to others.

technopony,

In the first picture I see an off balance horse diving or falling on the forehand, caused by a rider with an overly driving seat and a pulling hand, who is also well behind the motion of the horse. You can see how the horse is tiping onto his front end and curling up, and his hind legs are out behind him. The horse is being not being ridden over his back, but downward on his forehand. The horse is also too short in the neck for his nose to be pointing toward where his toe is pointing.

In the second picture is I believe of the same horse and rider? Same problems as the first photo. From this angle you can see how the rider is riding the horse with a stiff connection and down hill instead of up and open, and allowing the horse to come through his back.

What do you see?

[mbm]

toe flicking is created by a horse that is on the forehand/jammed into the hand/over tempo/etc

all of the pics posted so far show all of the above to one degree or another. *most* of them are so jammed up in the front and being held by the hand - tehy look like the horse would fall on its face if the rider was to let go of the reins. not only is this ugly - it is just incorrect riding/training. of course any horse can be out of balance and will look like some of those pics.... but if i just speak to what is being shown the above applies well.

and no - toe flick is not correct in dressage - in any way shape or form.

ETA - honeslty - if you want to work on training your eye - go to sustainable dressage and look at what she has there.... very good for explaing why stuff like this happens and what is correct/incorrect.

www.sustainabledressage.com

[Fixerupper]

'Mechanically' it is caused when a horse throws his foreleg much more forward (in the swing phase of the stride) than where his foot actually lands. It can make the horse appear to be going more forward than it actually is, there is no co-responding 'lengthening' of the stride behind.
It's 'fake fancy'.
(There was actually some fairly good examples of that at the Olympics...)

[Tonja]

JMurray wrote:
Okay so you are saying that photo in my post is not an example of a toe flick. I was always told that was an example of a toe flick where you can almost see the shoe.

Now I am confused.
The photo in your post does show a ‘toe flick’. The fetlock and pastern clearly appear to be hyperextended.

The forelegs should be brought forward in a smooth natural arc, not just flung forward.

Notice the constrained necks that accompany the 'toe flicking'. Constraining a horse’s neck blocks the horse’s energy and causes the horse to push itself forward on the forehand instead of carrying itself forward from behind.

[JMurray]

Thanks Tonja!

[adelmo95]

If you would like a slow motion video example of a toe flick go to http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=I6bpMurbF9U

***NOTE*** This horse is also very capable of doing a correct extended trot and tended to score well on this movement at the shows once we had some more dressage lessons

[lstevenson]

The toe flick is caused by tension in the horse's back.

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by JMurray:

Can someone break down this picture for me and talk about what is happening to cause this in the photo?

http://www.elpre.com/media/fotos/brcxopkl.jpg

An extended trot is supposed to be an extension of the stride of the horse. In order for that to occur, the entire frame of the horse, from tail to poll, must be allowed to extend. That is what a "lengthening of stride" is.

The toe of the horse cannot land any further ahead of the vertical line of the face of the horse, or in some cases of less collection or extension, in front of the nose of the horse. When the horse's face is held in as in the photograph of the gray shown, and the legs are thrown forward of that vertical line, the leg must actually drop back before the toe can touch the ground again to carry weight. That is why it is an inefficient and incorrect form of an extended stride. It is a false extension.

The toe-flipping occurs because the horse is really trying to do what his rider is asking (note rider's legs with spurs on horse's sides), but his rider is not allowing the spine, including the neck, of the horse to extend. This also means that the flow of energy that should be being created from the rear end of the horse being fully enaged is not being allowed to come through the back of the horse into the bit and hands. The flow of energy that should be being created from back to front is being constrained and creating tension that stops the horse from "floating" into a large, full, correct long strided extended trot.

[kizzless]

In Doris Kay Halstead's book "Release The Potential", she discusses the toe flick from a more mechanical perspective. She refers to the toe flick as being a product of the Symmetrical Tonic Neck Reflex.

"When the head/neck are forcibly flexed, the forelimbs will flex and the hind limbs will straighten"

"The bit [is] used to attain flexion with resulting extension shown in the trailing of the hind and compensation for avoiding buckling the front by hyperextension of the fore shown in toe curled up"

So basically, the reflex which buckles the forelegs is compensated for by hyperextending them instead. And you can actually feel the Symmetrical Tonic Neck Reflex yourself by tucking your chin in hard - your hands tuck in more. It was a really interesting read.

[buck22]

thanks everyone, and especially jm for keeping the conversation up and providing examples.

and thanks mbm, it was actually theresa's site that sparked my interest in dressage to begin with a few years ago.:)


ETA - honeslty - if you want to work on training your eye - go to sustainable dressage and look at what she has there.... very good for explaing why stuff like this happens and what is correct/incorrect.

www.sustainabledressage.com

[Eclectic Horseman]

If by “toe flick” you are meaning the front toes of the horse are flicking to the front in the trot (so that the horse's front shoes are visible from the front), this is caused by hyperextension of the horse’s front legs. When the horse’s energy is being blocked from traveling freely through its body, its front legs are flung forward and the legs hyperextend, instead of being carried forward in a smooth arc.

When the front toes are ‘flicking’, the hind toes are usually also flipping to the back (pushing instead of carrying) http://www.ridingart.com/toe-flip.htm


I think that this site has contributed to some confusion in nomenclature. This site seems to be talking about "knuckling over" with the hind foot, not toe flicking. Knuckling over is when the horse's hoof breaks over too early (before completing the stride.) The hoof doesn't land flat so it cannot dig in to the ground and propel the horse forward--thus it lacks impulsion. The horse may drag its toe along the ground before it becomes flat again in the stance phase of the stride.

Toe flicking or flipping (the way that I have always understood it) has to do with the front hooves flipping upward vertically at the furthest extension of the front leg. I don't think that in and of itself it is a bad or a good thing. A lot of times the hind leg does not match that same extension and, then yes, the horse is not through and is out behind. A shortened neck is also, sometimes, but not always seen. Again, I think toe flipping is neutral--it can just be the maximum output of an energetic horse (where the hind legs almost match and the neck is telescoped out.)

[grayarabpony]

In a really good extension if you see any flicking it's coming through the shoulder, not the toe. There's a lot of freedom in the shoulder because the hindquarters and abs are pushing and carrying.

[Tonja]

Originally Posted by Tonja
If by “toe flick” you are meaning the front toes of the horse are flicking to the front in the trot (so that the horse's front shoes are visible from the front), this is caused by hyperextension of the horse’s front legs. When the horse’s energy is being blocked from traveling freely through its body, its front legs are flung forward and the legs hyperextend, instead of being carried forward in a smooth arc.

When the front toes are ‘flicking’, the hind toes are usually also flipping to the back (pushing instead of carrying) http://www.ridingart.com/toe-flip.htm
Eclectic Horseman wrote:
I think that this site has contributed to some confusion in nomenclature. This site seems to be talking about "knuckling over" with the hind foot, not toe flicking. Knuckling over is when the horse's hoof breaks over too early (before completing the stride.) The hoof doesn't land flat so it cannot dig in to the ground and propel the horse forward--thus it lacks impulsion. The horse may drag its toe along the ground before it becomes flat again in the stance phase of the stride.
“Knuckling over” with the hind foot and “toe flipping” with the hind foot are two very different things. The "toe flip" illustration on the website clearly shows hind toe “flipping” which is typical when the hind legs are pushing instead of carrying.

A horse that is engaged and carrying will not “show its shoes” to the front nor will it “show its shoes” out behind.

[Eclectic Horseman]

“Knuckling over” with the hind foot and “toe flipping” with the hind foot are two very different things. The "toe flip" illustration on the website clearly shows hind toe “flipping” which is typical when the hind legs are pushing instead of carrying.

A horse that is engaged and carrying will not “show its shoes” to the front nor will it “show its shoes” out behind.

Then what is the difference between knuckling over and "hind toe flipping?" If there is no substantive difference, then it proves my point which was only that the nomenclature is confusing.

[Tonja]

Eclectic Horseman wrote:
Then what is the difference between knuckling over and "hind toe flipping?" If there is no substantive difference, then it proves my point which was only that the nomenclature is confusing.
You describe “knuckling over” as when the "horse's hoof breaks over too early (before completing the stride.) The hoof doesn't land flat so it cannot dig in to the ground and propel the horse forward--thus it lacks impulsion. The horse may drag its toe along the ground before it becomes flat again in the stance phase of the stride."

What I am describing as toe flipping is what happens after the hind hoof lands on the ground normally. Instead of carrying the horse forward and then recoiling, the hind legs are trailing, so the hind hooves flip backward and upward (exposing the hind shoe) before recoiling. A 'toe flip' will be repeated with each step, until the horse engages. The ‘toe flip’ will go away when the horse works from behind.

[Blkarab]

A pirouette that look likes a series of mini-rears is called a ‘rearouette’ :winkgrin:

:lol::lol::lol::lol::eek::eek::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol:

[Eclectic Horseman]

Eclectic Horseman wrote:

You describe “knuckling over” as when the "horse's hoof breaks over too early (before completing the stride.) The hoof doesn't land flat so it cannot dig in to the ground and propel the horse forward--thus it lacks impulsion. The horse may drag its toe along the ground before it becomes flat again in the stance phase of the stride."

What I am describing as toe flipping is what happens after the hind hoof lands on the ground normally. Instead of carrying the horse forward and then recoiling, the hind legs are trailing, so the hind hooves flip backward and upward (exposing the hind shoe) before recoiling. A 'toe flip' will be repeated with each step, until the horse engages. The ‘toe flip’ will go away when the horse works from behind.

Oh. I thought that was just called traveling "out behind."

[Tonja]

Eclectic Horseman wrote:
Oh. I thought that was just called traveling "out behind."
The hind toe flip is a part of traveling ‘out behind’.

[BornToRide]

It's often a sign of tight shoulders - rather properly extending the leg from the shoulders, the leg hyperextends all by itself.

[rugbygirl]

Thanks for the explanations! This was really interesting.

To add confusion from a beginner...'toe flick' is often talked about as being desireable in Arabian sporthorses. Discuss.

[slc2]

Who says that? For what arabian sport horse event would that be?

[JMurray]

I have been to sport horse nationals a couple of times as a spectator and you are right I saw that a lot in the in hand classes after they have been all jazzed up. They do flick!

[JackSprats Mom]

To add confusion from a beginner...'toe flick' is often talked about as being desireable in Arabian sporthorses. Discuss.

Its as incorrect in the Arab world as anywhere.

The trouble is alot of the top horses have a tendancy to do it, as well as having exagerated incorrect foreleg movement as it all looks 'fancy'.

Until top riders/horses are marked down for this the lower level riders will always be confused as they are being told one thing and seeing another.