CWD is a great company, but I feel bad.

[Not So Practical Horse(WO)man]

I made a dumb move. I was in a very bad mood today after getting home from the barn. I tried every way to make my new saddle fit and I just couldn't. Now long story short, my parents paid for the second half of the saddle. They wouldn't send the money in until we had cnfirmation that it fit perfectly. Well we couldn't get the sales rep to come out to us because he was out of the country indefinitely. So we tried for the sales rep in the region next to us. They ended up shipping it to her but because of several snowstorms we couldnt meet up. She didnt want to make the long trip so we offered to meet her in her region but couldnt because of the snow and I didnt want to take the risk with the trailer.

So she sent the saddle to us and as soon as we recieved it and I rode in it a couple of times and confirmed that it fit, we sent the money in. The saddle is now paid off in full. Well they promised me that the saddle would be too tight when it arrived but once it broke in around her back it would fit perfect. Well when it came, it fit perfect as it was. I emailed the rep and asked her if it would get wider even though it fit perfectly now. She assured me the saddle was designed a specific way so that it wouldnt slip down on the withers.

Well, it did get wider and it did slip down on her withers. It actually touched the withers if I wasnt using a half pad. When I was using the half pad, the originally perfectly balanced saddle felt like it was sloping down now. And when I got off to examine the pomel was significantly lower than the cantle. When I originally got it the balance of the saddle was unparalleled to anything I had ever ridden in before. Now the balance was all off especially when I was jumping and sitting the canter.

So I did something dumb and impulsive because I'm an idiot. I sent an angry email to the sales rep with appalling grammar and was rather upfront and forceful. I was mainly angry because I paid over $4000 for this saddle and they assured me the fit would be right the first time.

Unsurprisingly, the rep sent me back a short and deservedly terse message. I sent her back an apology message.

I don't think I'm wrong for wanting it to be perfect but I do feel bad about the original forceful email.

Sigh....

[vxf111]

You have every right to be angry if a $4000 "custom fitted" saddle doesn't fit. I would be too. And it sounds like you got some run-around even getting the saddle fitted, and are getting fed advertising BS a bit (what exactly is supposedly "stretching" to fit in a short period of time on what I presume is a foam saddle?!) You have EVER right to be livid and demand that CWD make things right.

[Not So Practical Horse(WO)man]

Hopefully the rep realizes that the issue is largely her fault and that you're just frustrated. At any rate, she should help you get this resolved, that's her job.

The rep that I am now communicating with did not do the initial fitting. The rep that did the initial fitting left the country to visit his family when his VISA expired and now he cannot get back in the country, or thats what we were told anyways. So there is no rep for my area.

The rep I am now communicating with is in Florida for the winter. She said they would have someone come out to me early February. But they also said they could have a rep out to me late November, early December and it never worked out so who knows...

I dont want to tarnish the name of this company because they have been relatively patient with me. Before the saddle expanded it fit perfectly. The back of the saddle still fits perfectly. Its just the front.

And yes it is a foam saddle.

[BAC]

You have every right to be upset that your very expensive custom saddle no longer fits but your response was rude and immature. Unfortunately mistakes happen sometimes. At least give CWD a chance to correct the situation before throwing such a temper tantrum.

[Not So Practical Horse(WO)man]

This is the email I originally sent to the saddle rep. The second paragraph is the one I feel bad about.

Please, please, please ignore the truly appalling spelling and grammar. I am typically the most anal grammar nazi ever but I was just so flustered and upset when I wrote this that all my years of private school education snuck out the back door.



Ok so I know your in florida but i really dont think my saddle is supposed to fit like it does. It fit fine at first. The balance was perfect, everything I wanted it to be but i put two of my fingers down it while i was trotting the other day and her withers would touch the top of the gullet. I was using just a thin baby pad. Now I know I dont know a ton about saddle fit but wouldnt this be what you call resting on the withers? So I get off thinking, "Ok, she's a thoroughbred, big witheres, no big deal ill just grab my half pad(Mattais told me to build up the padding when I first got it until she grew more back muscle)" My half pad is a mattes with the cut out spine. So great, its not touching her shoulders anymore, but the same problem as before- its sloping down(as in the pomel sits quite a bit lower than the cantle) and the balance is very off. I notice it when I'm jumping and I especially notice it when I try and sit the canter. I have a fleeceworks with a wither cutout that I will try but I really hate using that pad because its bulky and awkward and doesnt have a cutout where the flap goes over. I wanted this saddle to be perfect with or without a half pad. I normally use a half pad anyways just because she has a tendency to get sore backed and she is in full work at the moment.

I understand that there is noone to come out and look at it at the moment but I wanted you to be aware because whenever a dealer does become available, I will not be paying the $500 (or however much it is) to have the panels changed. When I orginally talked to the company back in November they assured me that since this was a special situation if there was a problem I wouldnt be charged.

As of now her back is ok and its not rubbing her withers and I always keep methocarbamol on hand anyways. But the balance problem is upsetting. I truly cannot see her bulking up anymore. She is 11. If she does bulk up and does not fit the saddle anymore, I will gladly pay to have the panels changed but the chances of that happenning is slim to none.

If you would like me to take pictures of it, I can do that. Its only after I tighten the girth and sit in it that the front sinks.

Thank You
Emily













This is the one I wrote back after the short, terse email I received back.



Not a problem. I appreciate your customer service. Everyone at CWD has been wonderful and hospitable and I really do love my saddle. I'm sorry I'm being such a bother and I hope you do truly see how much I appreciate how patient you have been with me. I understand it is a difficult situation all around.

Would you like me to send photos? I know it helps some people, but I don't know your take on it.

Emily

[magnolia73]

LOL, you could have a career in diplomacy. I would not feel bad about that second paragraph, given the $4k saddle. You use words like understand, aware.... yeah- poor grammar. Nothing to be ashamed of. Don't let them give you a run around.

I understand that there is noone to come out and look at it at the moment but I wanted you to be aware because whenever a dealer does become available, I will not be paying the $500 (or however much it is) to have the panels changed. When I orginally talked to the company back in November they assured me that since this was a special situation if there was a problem I wouldnt be charged.


A rant would have been:
"You need to get your ass here and make the &^%^&%^& saddle fit."

[Jumphigh83]

If CWD was such a great company they would not have sold you, and guaranteed the fit, on a saddle that they did not ever see on your horse. Customer service AFTER THE FACT is all well and good but they should have TCB BEFORE the deal was done. They blew you off and now they are blowing you off (re fit) again. Not impressive actually. Good luck with this.

[ImJumpin]

You need to stop being so passive, stop apologizing, and stop saying how great they are. You paid a lot of money for that saddle and did not get the customer service that they tout and now you have something that does not fit. It is not your fault, it is their fault. You need to tell them that. You also need to tell them they need to fix it.

I understand that the rep you were first working with lost his Visa. That's not CWD's fault. HOWEVER, it is their fault that they did not find an appropriate replacement to take over his orders in a timely fashion. And yes, mother nature happens and snow is out of the control of CWD, but that's not an excuse for just sending you a saddle without having some sort of plan for someone to take a look at it and verify that it fit. There are many independent saddle fitters out there, and I am sure there is at least one in your area. If CWD couldn't provide a saddle fitter they should have let you have one look at the fit and picked up the bill.

I do not get this "saddle spread" issue whatsoever. A saddle should fit well from the get go. Furthermore, if they did tell you that it should be a bit tight to start off with to compensate for the spread and you told them, oh it fits perfectly as is, they should know their product well enough to know that it was going to spread and it would eventually not fit. They should have taken back the saddle right away and replaced it with a better fitting saddle. At this point, they still should be taking the saddle back and fixing it. You should not be offering to spend more money to have the saddle fit corrected when it wasn't right from the start and you did let them know-- that's on them, not you.

Enough with the emails-- pick up the phone and call and express exactly what is wrong and how they should fix it. No more passive agression. An so what if that one rep is in FL-- we don't all live or show in FL, so if they expect to run a decent company they need to step up and figure out how to make this work for you. That is good customer service-- not what they have provided you with thus far. What they've given you is a run around.

[Horseymama]

I agree with ImJumpin! Stop being so passive and start demanding some service. A saddle SHOULD fit right from the get-go. I have purchased many saddles in the past, and they fit right from day one on. That's a lot of money to spend for something not to be right. Personally, I would send the saddle back and demand my money back! You shouldn't have to use Robaxin on your horse because of a $4,000. poorly-fit saddle, holy crap!

Raise some hell, don't let them treat you like that!

[meupatdoes]

I pay roughly $2,500 for custom made, professionally-fitted saddles that the saddle fitter orders after taking measurements of my horses' backs and listening to my nitpicky preferences on flap styling and leather choice, which saddles she then personally delivers and tweaks to fit my horses on site upon delivery (they are wool flocked so adjustment is possible, unlike foam saddles).
They fit.

If I spent $4,000 on something that DIDN'T FIT, I would be pretty <po'd>.

I fail to see how they are a great company if they are selling you stuff for $4,000 that DOESN'T FIT YOUR HORSE (It is sitting on the wither? SERIOUSLY? That is EGREGIOUS bad fitting. Saddles can fit poorly and not be anywhere NEAR that bad.)

Jesus, for that amount of money I could buy two of mine that DO fit.

[twofatponies]

It's one thing to apologize for being aggressive or rude, but

a) you weren't remotely hostile in the first email as far as I can tell

b) an apology for tone doesn't have to include any further "sorry to be a problem to you" kind of stuff! your demands in the first email, however expressed, were very reasonable! no need to retract them.


Next time post here first, then write the email. ;)

If you don't seem very upset in your letter/ phone call, they don't know there's a problem, right? "Upset" doesn't have to mean you use four letter words or scream and cry. It can be "I am so frustrated that this saddle is not working, after all the $ I spent, and all these months - I really need you to help me fix this situation now!"

At which point STOP talking and let them tell you what they can offer. If you have trouble making quick decisions you don't regret, write down what they offer, and tell them you'll call back shortly, you have to think about it/ someone is at the door/ you need to take another call. Then post here again! :D

Trust me, I've dealt with rude, hostile and demanding, and it's not you! :winkgrin:

[Nikki^]

I am sure CWD will do anything to make things right with you. From my experience they were very nice to me and very professional. I would be mad paying 4K for a saddle that didn't fit but I am sure CWD will help you out.

BTW, what region do you live? If you are near me (I live in Mobile, Al) I would suggest Ginny to do the saddle fitting. She's amazing!! She'll also be in Gulf Port for the AA show.

Good luck and please keep us posted!

[Trixie]

After my few years of working in the bar/restaurant industry, when reading your original post, I was expecting something totally rabid. Your response was perfectly acceptable. For goodness sake, I've had people go absolutely nuts about their server's incompetence and apparent total stupidity for... failure to get a BAGEL order out immediately.

As far as I can tell, CWD isn't doing their job. No, not their fault their rep's VISA expired, but if they charge $4K for saddle, they can damn well hire another. A good company will have a contingency plan for this sort of thing, and most good managers have at least a few resumes on hand for if something like that goes wrong. It is *seriously* bad business to make a client wait for MONTHS on a product like that.

Further, it's their mistake. So, please, don't feel bad because someone else isn't doing their job. Simply tell them that they need to fix the saddle, or you want a refund. I think you're reading too far into this.

Now, go read www.notalwaysright.com so that you can see how obnoxious the rest of the general public is. :winkgrin:

[Not So Practical Horse(WO)man]

b) an apology for tone doesn't have to include any further "sorry to be a problem to you" kind of stuff! your demands in the first email, however expressed, were very reasonable! no need to retract them.


The whole "sorry to be a problem" came from my and my fathers insistence in doing everything unconventionally with the saddle. What they typically do is have you pay the whole thing before they send it to you. We paid for the whole thing with a check so they didnt have our credit card information to hold as security. So I said I was not going to even risk having a collect your money and then a "No, not my problem" situation happen- despite the incredible things I had heard about their customer service.

The sales rep doesn't appear to want to deal with me anymore. I don't blame her mentality, she has probably guessed my age about now and doesn't want to deal with a kid but I can't have my parents deal with this because they know nothing about horses and always seem to pull ridiculous and impractical ideas out of their hat when it comes to anything horse related. I tried to get my dad involved when I was trying to get a rep to come out and deliver the saddle and all that happened was a big two steps backwards. So I deal with all things horse. I do all the talking, dad just drives the trailer.



And you're all right. I'm being a wimp. I need to talk to them on the phone, where I can use my big girl voice and make things happen. I can be a real biotch if I have to but I really don't want to have to resort to that.

Right now though, I just want my saddle. I want my horse to be happy and pain free once and for all. I want to never hear from this company again.


So first thing Tuesday(damn holidays) I'll be calling the Burbank, CA office. I'll keep you guys updated. Keep the advice coming though, its been very helpful and dare I say, inspiring.

[twofatponies]

The sales rep doesn't appear to want to deal with me anymore. I don't blame her mentality, she has probably guessed my age about now and doesn't want to deal with a kid ...

I didn't realize you were a kid! That does change the dynamic with the sales people, and makes some difference in how I interpret your previous posts. I wouldn't expect a kid to feel as confident standing up for what they need in a situation like this - but you've come this far with the issue - I think you can pull off resolving it by being firm and clear about what you need. That is an awful lot to spend on a saddle and not have it fit right, and they should make it right with you one way or another.

[huntereq7]

For the price of CWD's, it should most definitely be the first time! I would be more firm with them- it's not your fault the saddle doesn't fit! CWD is a very well-known company so they'll most likely fix your saddle- I wouldn't think they want any bad reviews! Good luck and I hope everything works out!!

[Not So Practical Horse(WO)man]

Yes and its not just mommy and daddy's money either. I paid $3000, they paid $1040. I spent my entire summer paycheck on that saddle and am now working ridiculous hours at another job just to be able to afford the vet bill. So its my investment and not just something I'm going to take lightly.

I'm not that young, when I said kid it was more of a regional jargin thing. I think maybe they don't expect me to be confident so its making everything more difficult.

[huntereq7]

Ugh I'm sorry... they explained to you that the saddle would still fit even after it was broken in, and it didn't, therefore that is their fault and they should fix it at no charge to you. I can understand having to spend your own money on a very expensive horsey item, getting super excited to finally get it, and then realizing it doesn't fit. I'm having the same issue with a pair of custom tall boots I ordered months ago! I definitely know how you feel :( I hope it all works out for you!

[Horseymama]

And you're all right. I'm being a wimp. I need to talk to them on the phone, where I can use my big girl voice and make things happen. I can be a real biotch if I have to but I really don't want to have to resort to that.


It's not about being a bitch. You don't have to yell and scream and curse, but you should be very demanding and direct with them and tell them you will not accept the situation like it is and either they make the saddle fit properly and pain-free, or they refund ALL of your money. Period.

Good luck, you can do it!

[Come Shine]

Now, go read www.notalwaysright.com so that you can see how obnoxious the rest of the general public is. :winkgrin:

Those are TOO funny!!!

To the OP: All the best with the saddle.

[RV]

I admit I haven’t read through this with a fine toothed comb . . .
But here’s my two – or four - cents.
1.) A saddle should fit when you purchase it. I don’t understand how the fit is supposed to improve as it breaks in – my CWD, as well as those of a few friends, suffered from “CWD slouch” where the whole saddle seemed to break down and and “mush” (for lack of a better word) where the panels slouched and had no real support of the tree – which made the custom saddle go from an ok-fit to an un-ride-able fit within 6 months of the purchase.

2.) The rep’s expired Visa is a rather big red flag –Visa’s are the responsibility of the company. They had to know it was expiring and should have ne-renewed, or if that was not possible, found a replacement and allowed the original rep to train the new-hire so your territory would not have been left uncovered. Things happen, people quit, get fired, etc. But if they don’t care enough about their employees - to make sure they have appropriate visas, or their company – ensuring there is coverage for the area to sustain sales and customer service - that says a lot of what they are willing to do for their customers.

3.) A rep was supposed to check your saddle, that was part of the deal you made with them, and if they did what they promised (NOT your fault there is no rep for the area – see above) then some of your frustration could have been avoided. You have every right to be upset.

4.) As far as feeling bad your dad has put them through the ringer – don’t. If they didn’t want to jump through the hoops your father laid out, ok, they could have refunded your money than and there – but they didn’t, so now that you don’t have what you paid for – a saddle that fits your horse – your father’s previous actions/demands do not excuse them from handling the problem. The time to say no, never mind we don’t want you as a client was BEFORE delivery of the ill fitting saddle. Now that it doesn’t fit, don’t feel like they don’t have to deal with the problem because it wasn’t an easy sale.

If I was you, I would use this opportunity to get your money back and go to a better brand – one that doesn’t think it’s ok that the saddle doesn’t fit rights away, and doesn’t expect the saddle to change shape. In my experience, even if you get the saddle to fit today, give it time, it will collapse in on itself and then you will be in the same situation in 6 months. And as time goes on, they don’t get any better with the customer service. I went through a very frustrating battle with them. PM me if you want details, I am not here to bash but don’t want to see someone else get taken advantage of.

[messemny]

NOT SO PRACTICAL HORSE(WO)MAN,
Do not feel fad about how you reacted about your saddle, if the sales reps are true professionals they will understand your frustration and after all, they are there to help you, its their job. It's so funny how you described your fit problem because our horses seem to be built similarly. I too think the tree is too wide and the panels need to be fixed. Unfortunately my horsey has rubs where the panels near the cantle are (OUCH!!)

I also had the same rep as you sell me my CWD and I too am having problems with the fit on my horse and was worried because he is no longer in this country. However, when I called the office in Burbank Amandine was more than gracious in helping me to find a solution. Within a week I received a call from a new rep who also happens to be a sponsored grand prix rider as well. He is coming out next week so ill be crossing my fingers that this whole thing works out well and adjustments are made quickly!!

I wouldn't worry about your initial email because it wasn't that rude and even if it was, the rep should have been professional and polite, not respond with a rude email as well. I work in customer service and although the customer is not always right, YOUR JOB is to be polite and really try to help them solve their problems, not just pretend to listen.

I would call the office in Burbank because Amandine is soooooo nice and always on top of things!! Good luck and let us know how it goes!

[Jellybean83]

I've said it on this board several times...I've had problems with CWD's customer service and fit of their saddles. I never thought the saddle fit properly but the rep insisted the saddle fit the horse well. I had to have the massage/chiro out every week due to back soreness. Switched back to the old saddle and it went away...I had to fight with the rep that NO the saddle did not fit.

[silver2]

I thought you were extremely polite. My letter would have gone something more like this:

"I am giving you 30 days to rectify the situation or I will take you to court".

[justridin']

yo' kid.

They have a pretty good policy about replacing saddles. I had to do exactly that when the one they picked out for my student was, shall we say, a little snug for her breeches...

Swap for another that someone else had swapped for another...

there's no shame in that game- for you or them...

burbank is a good office, and keeps inventory for that purpose. g'luck and let us know how it works out.

[goeslikestink]

The rep that I am now communicating with did not do the initial fitting. The rep that did the initial fitting left the country to visit his family when his VISA expired and now he cannot get back in the country, or thats what we were told anyways. So there is no rep for my area.

The rep I am now communicating with is in Florida for the winter. She said they would have someone come out to me early February. But they also said they could have a rep out to me late November, early December and it never worked out so who knows...

I dont want to tarnish the name of this company because they have been relatively patient with me. Before the saddle expanded it fit perfectly. The back of the saddle still fits perfectly. Its just the front.

And yes it is a foam saddle.


foam squashes with weight added thats why i dont buy them but anyways

send it back and ask for a refund or an exchange as the fitter is the problem reguardless of being out of the country or not the fitter wasnt aorund to fit the saddle to you and your horse its a company error
if they dont go public and say so

[MILOUTE55]

hi Emily and everybody,

Matthias VISA didn't exactly expire, it is more complicated and we don't want to go into too much details... but basically his VISA was refused because Matthias had to stay a little longer after he got into a car accident and couldn't fly back to Germany in his condition. The embassy thought it wasn't a sufficient excuse to stay "illegally" in the US while his former visa had just expired... we tried all we could along with our lawyers to get him back but we've been unsuccessful until now.
So much for the person who was saying that we didn't plan ahead of time... this was quite unpredictable.

Emily, by now you should have received a call from Bridget or Bertrand informing you of the arrival of our new rep John Lindstedt. I'm hoping you can set up an appointment with him soon and we can get everything fixed for you.

I have talked to you before, and while the reps are all over the place and somewhat difficult to track down, you know you can always call me if you have a question.

I would like to apologize to you and to all the customers who were inconvenienced by the absence of Matthias. It took us some time to find the right person and to train him but I promise you won't be disappointed by John... Plus he is just as funny as Matthias (without the German accent ;-)!!

Have a great evening,

Amandine
Office manager

[Not So Practical Horse(WO)man]

hi Emily and everybody,

Matthias VISA didn't exactly expire, it is more complicated and we don't want to go into too much details... but basically his VISA was refused because Matthias had to stay a little longer after he got into a car accident and couldn't fly back to Germany in his condition. The embassy thought it wasn't a sufficient excuse to stay "illegally" in the US while his former visa had just expired... we tried all we could along with our lawyers to get him back but we've been unsuccessful until now.
So much for the person who was saying that we didn't plan ahead of time... this was quite unpredictable.

Emily, by now you should have received a call from Bridget or Bertrand informing you of the arrival of our new rep John Lindstedt. I'm hoping you can set up an appointment with him soon and we can get everything fixed for you.

I have talked to you before, and while the reps are all over the place and somewhat difficult to track down, you know you can always call me if you have a question.

I would like to apologize to you and to all the customers who were inconvenienced by the absence of Matthias. It took us some time to find the right person and to train him but I promise you won't be disappointed by John... Plus he is just as funny as Matthias (without the German accent ;-)!!

Have a great evening,

Amandine
Office manager


Ok, haha thats all i was told about his VISA. I wasn't trying to spread rumors I was just trying to justify the problem.

And John seems very nice. I like that he is a rider and he understood the pomel and balance thing I was talking about. I really look forward to meeting him tomorrow. And funny you should mention the accent...the first thing I said to him was "Oh my god, I can actually understand you" Haha I have become a master at nodding my head and pretending I know what is going on.

I'm very confident that the situation will be completely rectified.

[Bogie]

I'm sorry, I'm not getting this.

You pay 4K for a custom saddle and then you basically swap back and forth with the Burbank office until you find a saddle that fits?

That's not custom in my book.

Thank you very much but I'll keep buying good quality wool flocked saddles off the shelf with options and use saddle fitters who know how to fit a horse.

Maybe I should just feel pleased that I have a saddle that fits better than a custom and it cost a fraction of the 4K ;).

Thank you, Gary for always making sure my saddles fit. Everytime I read one of these threads I say a small prayer that you won't fully retire.


yo' kid.

They have a pretty good policy about replacing saddles. I had to do exactly that when the one they picked out for my student was, shall we say, a little snug for her breeches...

Swap for another that someone else had swapped for another...

there's no shame in that game- for you or them...

burbank is a good office, and keeps inventory for that purpose. g'luck and let us know how it works out.

[Coppers mom]

Hold on a minute...

You originally agreed it fit, right? That's why you sent the money, right? I'm not understanding how this is CWD's fault.

BTW, was it a custom saddle, I didn't get that from your OP, or maybe CWD only makes custom saddles, I'm not sure of the brand.

Anyways, the flocking in a saddle will settle down after it's been used a while. That is totally normal. That's why it's sometimes recommended you get the saddle re-flocked within a year of the initial purchase. If it's foam, there's not much you can do other than switch the flocking to wool or something. If it's wool, just send it to be reflocked!

From what I'm seeing, you're upset about a totally normal thing, and blaming it on the company when it's in no way their fault. It's not like the sent you an ill fitting saddle and are now giving you a hard time, you said it fit and gave them the money.

I think you do owe them an apology for coming on here and making it look like they've done anything wrong. You said it fit, and are now trying to blame them for either 1) your poor judgement, or 2) normal settling of the flocking material.

[MILOUTE55]

I'm sorry, I'm not getting this.

You pay 4K for a custom saddle and then you basically swap back and forth with the Burbank office until you find a saddle that fits?

That's not custom in my book.




no indeed, you're not getting it... this person was talking about a saddle that was "picked" for a rider, meaning they wanted a saddle immediately and were not ready to wait for 8 to 10 weeks to have it produced so we sold them one of our demo/stock saddles that have the "pro" panels (the most "universal" fit). They took a couple of saddles on trial before finding the perfect one for them, if they hadn't found it they might have chosen to finally go custom and wait for the saddle to be produced.

See Emily, that's my problem with bringing that discussion to the board... it's not like you can really ask for people's opinion because they would need to know ALL the details of ALL of our conversations from the day you ordered the saddle to the day you realized something was wrong with it.

I know for sure that you will get the perfect saddle for you and your horse, even if it takes some adjustments. And yes, it would definitely be bad luck if we had to fix or rebuild your saddle, but we would give you a loaner so you would not remain without a saddle. And I'm not saying that because it is a public discussion... we've had outstanding customer service since the beginning (or is it only since I joined the company 3 years ago.. lol :D ?)

Call me if you need anything, I always prefer phone communication with customers... Emails can be harsh and forum discussions even more frustrating.

Thanks to the riders who left nice feedbacks on CWD, I'm glad to see the results of our hard work. Sorry to those who might have had issue(s) with our saddles/service/reps, we're always open to discussion so even if you think it is an old story you can call me and I'll take care of it!

Good evening everybody, I should go back to work and call those customers whose saddles are ready to ship from France. How I love to hear the sound of "Ohhhhhhh Myyyyyy Gooooodddd, my saaaaaaddddle is ready!!!!!"... this is the best reward :)

Amandine

[Not So Practical Horse(WO)man]

no indeed, you're not getting it... this person was talking about a saddle that was "picked" for a rider, meaning they wanted a saddle immediately and were not ready to wait for 8 to 10 weeks to have it produced so we sold them one of our demo/stock saddles that have the "pro" panels (the most "universal" fit). They took a couple of saddles on trial before finding the perfect one for them, if they hadn't found it they might have chosen to finally go custom and wait for the saddle to be produced.

See Emily, that's my problem with bringing that discussion to the board... it's not like you can really ask for people's opinion because they would need to know ALL the details of ALL of our conversations from the day you ordered the saddle to the day you realized something was wrong with it.

I know for sure that you will get the perfect saddle for you and your horse, even if it takes some adjustments. And yes, it would definitely be bad luck if we had to fix or rebuild your saddle, but we would give you a loaner so you would not remain without a saddle. And I'm not saying that because it is a public discussion... we've had outstanding customer service since the beginning (or is it only since I joined the company 3 years ago.. lol :D ?)

Call me if you need anything, I always prefer phone communication with customers... Emails can be harsh and forum discussions even more frustrating.

Thanks to the riders who left nice feedbacks on CWD, I'm glad to see the results of our hard work. Sorry to those who might have had issue(s) with our saddles/service/reps, we're always open to discussion so even if you think it is an old story you can call me and I'll take care of it!

Good evening everybody, I should go back to work and call those customers whose saddles are ready to ship from France. How I love to hear the sound of "Ohhhhhhh Myyyyyy Gooooodddd, my saaaaaaddddle is ready!!!!!"... this is the best reward :)

Amandine


Read the thread title. I said CWD is a great company. I never gave negative feedback I was simply slapping myself on the wrist for writing a rude email. All the other posters turned it into negative feedback, not me. People go on forums to discuss things. That is the purpose of them. We're not trying to slander your company, just seeking advice. So please, do not get frustrated with me or chastise me like a little girl for coming to a public and open online community for advice. I have no control over which direction the discussion heads on these boards, and as a professional in the customer service business, you should understand that. The format of this forum is constructive and I broke no rules by coming on here and posting about my situation.

Emily

[Not So Practical Horse(WO)man]

Hold on a minute...

You originally agreed it fit, right? That's why you sent the money, right? I'm not understanding how this is CWD's fault.

BTW, was it a custom saddle, I didn't get that from your OP, or maybe CWD only makes custom saddles, I'm not sure of the brand.

Anyways, the flocking in a saddle will settle down after it's been used a while. That is totally normal. That's why it's sometimes recommended you get the saddle re-flocked within a year of the initial purchase. If it's foam, there's not much you can do other than switch the flocking to wool or something. If it's wool, just send it to be reflocked!

From what I'm seeing, you're upset about a totally normal thing, and blaming it on the company when it's in no way their fault. It's not like the sent you an ill fitting saddle and are now giving you a hard time, you said it fit and gave them the money.

I think you do owe them an apology for coming on here and making it look like they've done anything wrong. You said it fit, and are now trying to blame them for either 1) your poor judgement, or 2) normal settling of the flocking material.



No I sent them the money because it orginally fit PERFECTLY. After a month, it has become too wide. If it had become too tight I can understand that maybe she grew some back muscles and then it would be up to me to pay to have it fit her. But she definitely did not loose any back muscle and the saddle is too wide.

And it is a foam saddle. From what I understand that is what the company specializes in.

I do believe it is custom or at least semi custom. As in they have a bunch of different options that are then put together to make the saddle that is right for me.

[MintHillFarm]

Over the past few weeks, I have heard several horror stories on custom fit saddles. I would definitly make the rep aware that there are issues which have to be seen in person. You need them to come back out and look at the saddle as it sits on your horse. You were not wrong in making your case, terse or otherwise. You paid a lot of money for a custom fit. I would get back in touch with the rep, and if you get no reponse, go higher up in the company. In the end, it does them no good to have unhappy clients...

[MintHillFarm]

I agree with "Amastrike"

"The spelling and grammar is rather atrocious () but I really don't think the rest if it is THAT bad. I was expecting a raging tantrum.. this is nowhere near that".

It was not insulting nor rude.

[BAC]

And it is a foam saddle. From what I understand that is what the company specializes in.

While foam panels are more popular, CWD offers the option of wool flocked for those who prefer that.

[vxf111]

CWD is at least partially responsible for this situation. They had a rep working with the buyer and then midway through the process, the rep had to leave the country. The replacement rep didn’t want to meet the buyer. That right there is pretty bad service, considering the cost of a CWD saddle. If I was going to buy one, you’re d@mn skippy I would expect a competent rep to help me all of the way through the process, and if the rep got extradited or whatever--I would expect CWD to get someone out there who could pick up without anything being lost in translation.

“Picked for a rider.” I thought the CWD saddle rep went out to evaluate the horse? If this is the case, the saddle “picked” with the help of the rep should fit. I could see this point if the buyer blindly opened a website and ordered a saddle willy nilly, but she didn’t. The CWD rep went to her barn and worked on helping her choose the saddle. Ergo, it should be an acceptable fit. Perhaps not quite as perfect as a custom, but it should still fit. If not, what was the point in the rep going out to the buyer in the first place?!

What is with this “too tight and then it’ll stretch out” business? I still don’t understand, what is everyone expecting to stretch?! The buyer was told “It’ll be tight when it comes and then stretch out.” it came, it was NOT tight. Buyer told CWD and was told it wouldn’t stretch. Evidently it did! That to me seems like CWD’s problem. If they had the rep doing his/her job, they would have had someone out there to deliver the saddle and confirm what was delivered would WORK.

I am really glad that CWD is going to stand behind the saddle and work with the buyer to make sure she has one that fits.

[MILOUTE55]

yo' kid.

They have a pretty good policy about replacing saddles. I had to do exactly that when the one they picked out for my student was, shall we say, a little snug for her breeches...

Swap for another that someone else had swapped for another...

there's no shame in that game- for you or them...

burbank is a good office, and keeps inventory for that purpose. g'luck and let us know how it works out.

Veronica,
when I said "picked" I was referring to this post, not to Emily's story... sorry if it was confusing, I get lost in this thread myself ;)

Emily's saddle was custom made for herself and her horse. The person mentioned in the above post (I'm guessing because I can't tell whose customer it is from so little info) most probably bought one of our stock saddles like I explained earlier... 2 different situations... and in the end 2 happy riders and saddle owners :)

[vxf111]

Not sure who is Emily, now I am losing track, but if Not So Practical Horse(WO)man ordered a custom saddle and it doesn't fit a month after delivery-- she has every right to be peeved and expect that it'll be promptly replaced with a correctly fitting saddle.

Which is sounds like CWD is doing, which is super (unlike the Devoucoux saga that went way off the rails before the train righted itself).

But Not So Practical Horse(WO)man was not unreasonable in expecting that the saddle she paid $4,000+ for, that was fitted by a CWD rep, would fit WHEN IT ARRIVED without the hassle of return/exchange. She is entitled to have a saddle that fits to her satisfaction, and if it doesn't because the CWD rep screwed up or left halfway through the job-- that is CWD's fault, not the buyer's. I am glad you're going to make it right, but that doesn't mean she wasn't entitled to be annoyed that the saddle was incorrectly fitted/fabricated the first go round.

Can you explain the explanation Not So Practical Horse(WO)man got about the stretching? What is supposed to be stretching and why? I am very curious. Just the leather? Would that really stretch enough to make a discernable difference to the fit of the saddle? Why not pre stretch the leather? Or did she get a wool saddle and we're talking about flocking compressing? Not So Practical Horse(WO)man says the saddle is wool. I am genuinely confused.

[MILOUTE55]

Not sure who is Emily, now I am losing track, but if Not So Practical Horse(WO)man ordered a custom saddle and it doesn't fit a month after delivery-- she has every right to be peeved and expect that it'll be promptly replaced with a correctly fitting saddle.

Which is sounds like CWD is doing, which is super (unlike the Devoucoux saga that went way off the rails before the train righted itself).

But Not So Practical Horse(WO)man was not unreasonable in expecting that the saddle she paid $4,000+ for, that was fitted by a CWD rep, would fit WHEN IT ARRIVED without the hassle of return/exchange. She is entitled to have a saddle that fits to her satisfaction, and if it doesn't because the CWD rep screwed up or left halfway through the job-- that is CWD's fault, not the buyer's. I am glad you're going to make it right, but that doesn't mean she wasn't entitled to be annoyed that the saddle was incorrectly fitted/fabricated the first go round.

Can you explain the explanation Not So Practical Horse(WO)man got about the stretching? What is supposed to be stretching and why? I am very curious. Just the leather? Would that really stretch enough to make a discernable difference to the fit of the saddle? Why not pre stretch the leather? Or did she get a wool saddle and we're talking about flocking compressing? Not So Practical Horse(WO)man says the saddle is wool. I am genuinely confused.

I totally agree with you on everything, especially the fact that Emily (= NotSoPratical.. same person) had every right to expect a saddle to fit right out of the box and the only thing CWD has to do is fix the problem asap. The VISA and sales rep issues made us less reactive than we usually are with customer service... but it is being fixed (maybe even as we speak because I think Emily is meeting today with John, our new rep).

About the "stretching" part, it is not the leather but the flexible tree point which is one of the specificities of CWD saddles. I'll try to clarify, the tree opening at the front of the saddle (the part above the withers, also called the "twist") is a part of the tree and thus usually made of wood and steel. On some saddles (like Tad Coffin and CWD), the manufacturers have chosen a more flexible material for this part of the tree which is directly in contact with the horse's shoulders. On the CWD this part is in flexible polyurethane, it gives the horse's shoulders more freedom of movement, especially over the jump.
This material however tends to take its definitive position after a few rides. So you do need to put the saddle on the horse, girth is and ride in the saddle before it adjusts to its final fit. I couldn't tell what happened with Emily's saddle, if it was ordered incorrectly or if something happened with production... but it should not have "collapsed" on the horse withers. It should have slightly taken its position during the early break in process. Attention, I'm not talking about a huge difference and the tree completely opening after you ride in the saddle, it is more like a subtle adjustment.
I hope that helps.

Oh, and Emily said that her saddle is foam; somebody else mentioned wool stuffing but that's not the case for her saddle.

Excuse the Frenchie if some sentences are not great as far as grammar and spelling... I'm ok when I take my time but when I try to rush it's not so great (and I'm starving and wanna go to lunch :lol:)

[vxf111]

I am glad you explained about the tree point. I wasn't aware. Given this fact, it sounds like it's absolutely IMPERATIVE that a CWD rep deliver the saddle or check it soon after delivery-- since the "out of the box" fit IS NOT (and is not intended to be) the final fit. That makes things even more difficult for the buyer, and is part of the reason why they pay the "big bucks" to get a CWD saddle which includes the time/knowledge of the rep fitting for and delivering the saddle.

I am very glad that Emily is going to get a good resolution and that CWD is doing the right thing. I don't know why anyone would chastize her for being upset-- she didn't get what she paid for the first go-round. Now it is being corrected and that's excellent, but she was not out of line being upset at the outset when the saddle arrived (sans fitter, who had gone AWOL) and within a month it didn't fit.

[Coppers mom]

vxf- But she said that the saddle fit, and that's why she paid for it!

I still don't see how this is CWD's fault. From the looks of it, they've done nothing wrong. The client ordered a premade saddle (not custom), said that it fit, and has now decided that it doesn't. How could it possibly be the companies fault that the client misjudged the fit of the saddle? If she says it's ok, is the company really expected to go out and make sure anyways?

And you can remove the foam and reflock with wool, that's what I did with my saddle. It's not expensive, and you can reflock it for a more custom fit later on.

[vxf111]

Coppers mom, go back and read the Not So Practical's (NSPH) postings again (I believe she DID order a CUSTOM, foam saddle. Someone else who Milouette referenced ordered an off-the-shelf wool, but NSPH got a custom foam saddle)...

NSPH was told "the saddle should be TIGHT when it arrives because it stretches out." NSPH got the saddle, put it on and right out of the box it wasn't tight. So she called CWD because she understood that the fit you get out of the box is a fit that is expected to expand. CWD told NSPH "don't worry, it'll fit even if it stretches." That wasn't true. Within a month the saddle stretched to be too wide and moreover it's collapsing down on the withers which frankly sounds to be like potentially defective design, not just minor fit adjustment.

NSPH never got a saddle that "fit," not in a long term way.

Moreover, NSPH just paid $4,000 for a saddle. She should not have to turn around, a month later, and get it reflocked because it doesn't fit. That's absurd!

Imagine if this was a pair of boots, not a saddle. You go to the Vogel booth at a show tack to try on and you pull on a pair of sample boots. The salesperson tells you "boots stretch. You want to get a pair that are TIGHT on you in the store and they'll stretch to be comfortable. If you buy them "to fit" now, they'll be loose after they stretch." You order the boots custom made and they arrive at your house. You put them on and they're perfect, not tight. You call Vogel "oh salesperson, I like the boots just like this. I don't want them any looser. If I keep wearing them are they going to stretch and become too loose? Because that won't work for me." Vogel salesperson says "no worries they won't stretch." A month passes, the boots are now bagging around your ankles and falling off because they're so big. Whose fault is this?! It's Vogel, for giving you poor advice and/or taking bad measurements. That is the saddle-is-too-wide analogy. NSPH didn't choose the fit of this saddle, it was measured by a CWD rep. From the looks of things, either that rep or the CWD factory screwed up.

Imagine if this was a car, not a saddle. if you paid $30,000 for a new saddle, drove it off the lot, and then a month later the engine blew. Would you say "oh well, I guess I'll get a handy dandy new engine at my own expense" or would you be on the phone with the dealer asking them to replace your lemon? You'd be on the phone. That is the wool flocking analogy. No one who buys a custom saddle should be obligated to shell out more money to make it work a MONTH later. It should work when it gets there. Period.

[Not So Practical Horse(WO)man]

I ordered a custom saddle. I recieved a custom saddle.

I ordered foam panels. I recieved foam panels.

I had a problem with the saddle. I had the problem completely resolved.


Here's what happened:
When Mattais(the original rep) came out and fit the saddle he fit it to my horse who was in shape and very muscled out. Right after he came out and did the fitting I had to stop riding my horse more than 2x a week because the saddle that I did have(a borrowed old Passier) absolutley did not fit and was causing extreme back pain. Due to not being able to ride her she lost alot of muscle. Her back especially lost almost all of its muscle. So I recieved the saddle and it fit. The saddle widened and it did not fit. So I added a half pad and i thick saddle pad and made it fit. My mare will get back into her previous fitness level once spring rolls around and we can do more than ring work. If I were to have the panels of the saddle changed now to fit her now it would not fit her when she fills out again. But while I can make it fit with padding now, it works and is not causing her pain. When she builds up, I will adjust the padding accordingly.

John was extremely knowledgeable and helpful. As a rider he knew what I was talking about. I would absolutely do business with this company again.

When I looked at the saddle fit it did not look right to me because I was thinking about how a non custom saddle would fit. John explained to me that with the innovative fit of the CWD they sit closer to the horse because they are custom.

Everything is fixed. I am happy.

[vxf111]

Ooh goody! Another saddle that defies the laws of physicals. As long as you're happy though, that's what counts!

[Bogie]

John explained to me that with the innovative fit of the CWD they sit closer to the horse because they are custom.

Everything is fixed. I am happy.

Glad you are happy. I hope that your horse stays happy.

Saddles do not have to have a three finger clearance to fit, custom or not ;).

[vxf111]

I ordered a custom saddle. I recieved a custom saddle.

I ordered foam panels. I recieved foam panels.

I had a problem with the saddle. I had the problem completely resolved.


Here's what happened:
When Mattais(the original rep) came out and fit the saddle he fit it to my horse who was in shape and very muscled out. Right after he came out and did the fitting I had to stop riding my horse more than 2x a week because the saddle that I did have(a borrowed old Passier) absolutley did not fit and was causing extreme back pain. Due to not being able to ride her she lost alot of muscle. Her back especially lost almost all of its muscle. So I recieved the saddle and it fit. The saddle widened and it did not fit. So I added a half pad and i thick saddle pad and made it fit. My mare will get back into her previous fitness level once spring rolls around and we can do more than ring work. If I were to have the panels of the saddle changed now to fit her now it would not fit her when she fills out again. But while I can make it fit with padding now, it works and is not causing her pain. When she builds up, I will adjust the padding accordingly.

John was extremely knowledgeable and helpful. As a rider he knew what I was talking about. I would absolutely do business with this company again.

When I looked at the saddle fit it did not look right to me because I was thinking about how a non custom saddle would fit. John explained to me that with the innovative fit of the CWD they sit closer to the horse because they are custom.

Everything is fixed. I am happy.

I meant physics earlier. Cat sitting on arm makes for tough typing.

I thought in the first few initial rides, the tree "stretched and set" to the horse's shape. So did the tree set to the shape of your horse out of work?

I thought your horse was reacting negatively to saddle pressure on her withers? Now that she heard the CWD advertising line, she no longer objects? CWD talked the balance of the saddle back?

I am glad you're happy, but it does sound a bit like you're getting fed a PR line?!

[MILOUTE55]

Emily, I'm glad you're happy :)

Veronica, I'm not sure what you're trying to suggest. John's explanation make a lot of sense to me... If the saddle had to be redone completely or the panels had to be changed he would have done so without any hesitation. I don't know why you seem to be so sure that we are not doing our job properly. We do care about saddle fitting and we do care about our customers... do you think I would be here at this time if I didn't? I was on the phone with John right after he finished talking to Emily and he told me the exact same thing that she wrote in her post.

I'll get back to my work and serving CWD customers now. Anybody who needs me please send me a message and I will promptly answer.

Amandine

note: Yes, CWD saddles defy the laws of physics, it is the whole point of technical evolution versus sticking only to tradition. Our motto is "A Generation Ahead" and CWD riders won a lot of medals at the last Olympics. There are reasons for that.

[vxf111]

I am sure you care. No one has ever doubted your sincerity.

I am trying to reconcile what you posed about how the saddle works (expansion after the first few rides to its final state) with what Not So Practical stated she saw of the saddle (pressing on the wither, so wide up front it tipped her forward, arrived less "tight" than she was expecting), with what I know about saddle fit (no saddle, no matter how dynamic and specially designed should be PRESSING on the wither). I can't seem to reconcile these things and I am trying because saddle fit is a subject near and dear to my heart.

You don't have to justify the fit of the saddle to me, the cutomer is happy and in the end that's the most important thing... but ultimately something doesn't seem right about a saddle that expands up front to the point where it presses on the wither and tips the rider forward. How, when the rider is in the saddle, does that NOT put uneven pressure on the wither? What special design is defying gravity which concentrates weight on the lowest point(s) of the saddle in contact with the rider? Not trying to be contrary, just cannot understand what about CWD saddles gets around this fact when it seems to apply to all other saddles and things with mass?

P.S.- No offense but our olympians are TERRIFIC and I think they could ride on a burlap sack and still win :) Nikes didn't make Michael Jordan. Vice versa.

[MILOUTE55]

P.S.- No offense but our olympians are TERRIFIC and I think they could ride on a burlap sack and still win :) Nikes didn't make Michael Jordan. Vice versa.

:) totally agree with that... I was just suggesting that if those great Olympians chose CWD as their saddle brand it means they believe it offers what is best for them and their horses. Michael Jordan didn't pick Crocs as his competition shoes... (ok this last one was dumb, I was looking for a brand of bad sport shoes but couldn't find any :D)

[Not So Practical Horse(WO)man]

It will tip forward if I dont use the right pads with it. The saddle was fit to my mare when she had lots and lots of shoulder and back muscles. When she gets those back the saddle will fit without any special padding. So the saddle did stretch...it stretched to the size of my horses shoulders about 6 months ago. And the saddle will fit her when she is back in her top physical condition again....which is what she is normally kept in 9/12months of the year. She is not in that condition now because i was not riding her because i did not have a saddle that she could be ridden painlessly in.

[elctrnc]

It will tip forward if I dont use the right pads with it. The saddle was fit to my mare when she had lots and lots of shoulder and back muscles. When she gets those back the saddle will fit without any special padding. So the saddle did stretch...it stretched to the size of my horses shoulders about 6 months ago. And the saddle will fit her when she is back in her top physical condition again....which is what she is normally kept in 9/12months of the year. She is not in that condition now because i was not riding her because i did not have a saddle that she could be ridden painlessly in.

Wait--So I'm confused, In post #35, you said the following:

No I sent them the money because it orginally fit PERFECTLY. After a month, it has become too wide. If it had become too tight I can understand that maybe she grew some back muscles and then it would be up to me to pay to have it fit her. But she definitely did not loose any back muscle and the saddle is too wide.

So now you are saying that the saddle is too wide because your mare lost muscle, but in post 35 you said that the saddle was too wide after a month, and it "definitely" couldn't have been due to a loss of muscle.

:confused:

[Not So Practical Horse(WO)man]

Wait--So I'm confused, In post #35, you said the following:



So now you are saying that the saddle is too wide because your mare lost muscle, but in post 35 you said that the saddle was too wide after a month, and it "definitely" couldn't have been due to a loss of muscle.

:confused:

The saddle expanded like it was supposed to during that month. I didnt think it was loss of muscle until the vet asked for some before and after pictures about a week ago and then I had an "Oh....wow. Daaaaaammmmnnnn...." moment.

[SaddleFitterVA]

I don't know what saddle CWD is, I'm terrible with acronyms.

But, is it wool flocked? Does it need to be reflocked in the front?

And, why are you not just using an extra pad in there? If it is slightly too wide, you could pad correctively while you are working out the details with this CWD company. There is no reason to be needing muscle relaxers, and if it is so bad that it IS making your horse sore, then you need to stop using it.

[MILOUTE55]

I don't know what saddle CWD is, I'm terrible with acronyms.

But, is it wool flocked? Does it need to be reflocked in the front?

And, why are you not just using an extra pad in there? If it is slightly too wide, you could pad correctively while you are working out the details with this CWD company. There is no reason to be needing muscle relaxers, and if it is so bad that it IS making your horse sore, then you need to stop using it.

you should read the whol thread, all those questions have been answered several times.
CWD is a French Custom Saddles manufacturer, no particular meaning except they are the initials' of the former owner's sons... = Charles William and I never remember the last one (Daniel?).

[MintHillFarm]

So now I am more confused...My Butet never didn't fit the horse(s) when broken in. I am not totally convinced that a saddle should change that much. Maybe it is the foam rather than the wool that makes it so? Sorry, I am finding all the discussion on this topic a bit discouraging about custom saddles.