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Plumb Loco
Jan. 16, 2009, 09:19 PM
Horses and dogs seem to go together. I'm sure many of you have watched the "Dog Whisperer". Have you all made a similar connection to Cesar Millan's canine philosophy and horses? I am sure Cesar Millan could make a mint in the horse industry if he wanted to. I am probably not the only horse person to make the connection between his canine training and our equine training methods. Certainly, dogs are predators and horses are prey, but the training methods regarding the animal psyche are connected. The common theme lies in being aware of your surroundings and having the timing to be able to make a correction at the first signs of distraction and then LET GO! so that the animal has the chance to understand the correction. Being a "calm and asserive pack leader" has credibility in the equine world as well as the canine world. I could go on, but I am more interested in all of your thoughts.

seeuatx
Jan. 16, 2009, 09:26 PM
I only get the chance to watch the show sporadically (no cable in my house)... but I really like what I do get to see. I actually remember one episode where the dog owner was a horse person. He was able to connect with the owner the similarities in training techniques. It was very cool to watch.

Merle
Jan. 16, 2009, 09:30 PM
I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this! I'm a big fan of Cesar and always think about this too. :)

DLee
Jan. 16, 2009, 09:37 PM
I thought I heard/read at some point that he and Parelli were going to do a show together... they were looking for dogs and horses that had problems with each other. Agressive towards each other and such...

I am a huge fan of Cesar. :yes:

Little Valkyrie
Jan. 16, 2009, 10:57 PM
I love Cesar, I think he does a fantastic job with dogs, and I think he could do a fantastic job with horses. It seems to me that if you have determined how to be the alpha with a species like a dog (who can obviously be strong, aggressive, and very ADD) you can transfer it to many different animals. It would be very interesting to watch him work with a horse.

Sithly
Jan. 16, 2009, 11:36 PM
I like the fact that he's no-nonsense and is quite blunt about placing the blame where it belongs: directly on the owners.

Dr. Doolittle
Jan. 16, 2009, 11:53 PM
I too love Cesar (watch his show whenever possible, and strongly urge my "dog clients" to watch him; I'm an obedience trainer with PetsMart.) His points are very logical, and his philosophy extremely useful for training herd and pack mammals, period! (I actually find that I *instinctively* do a lot of what he does with the dogs, as well as with the people in my dog classes. And it echoes what I do with my own horse *and* my student's horses--though my training does tend to be much more "reward based", and I use praise more than he does, on the whole...)

It really is all about being the "leader" (of the pack/herd), and Cesar is right: 99.9% of the time, the owners/trainers/"pet parents" are to blame for their animals' behavior issues.

(It's great when the people "get it" though, finally. Very gratifying to see, and I especially love it because the animal is always the one who benefits the most. ;))

Eventer55
Jan. 17, 2009, 08:18 AM
Cesar is what the Buddhists call a Bodisatva, one who dies and returns to earth to just do good deeds. His philosophy can be applied to almost anything. We hardly miss a show:)

maxdog
Jan. 17, 2009, 09:06 AM
Everytime I watch his show I see him using excessive force to "train." I personally don't believe that kicking a dog in the head repeatedly to get it's attention is necessary. Positive reinforcement goes a long way to train dogs and horses. Let the flaming begin...:D

SuperSTB
Jan. 17, 2009, 09:40 AM
I think he does fabulous work HOWEVER I have 2 points of contention.

1. is the show format. I KNOW there are people out the who watch the show and then try it on their or someone else's dog. It just a normal end result. But many of the dogs featured and the reform process to 'fix' these issues are actual complex. It requires people to know what the heck they are doing. For example: Betty Sue has a mutt. Mutt has an aggression problem. Betty watches the show and catches an episode of a dog with a similar issue. Betty thinks she can do that with her dog. So she gives it a whirl but because the show was not specific enough on dealing with said issue and there may have been other factors that show editors clipped out in order to pack said episode in 30 minutes, Betty ends up stressing the dog out and making issues worse. So if Cesar wants to HELP dog owners, he needs to be a wee bit more specific. Turn the show into a 'clinic'/lesson. Oh and we all don't have dog helpers so what's a person to do then.

2. If the dog is screwed up (mentally, training, whatever) there is a point of no return. Sometimes it's just better to put the dog down. Why? Because not all dogs are in perfect world situations. This pertains to aggressive biting dogs. I saw a show where two rotties were getting to the aggressive biting stage. Well you can put those 2 dogs into the perfect training world but still- if the owner loses control (environment situation) or maybe has to give up dogs and they end up in another inexperienced owner situation- agression IS going to return. This is a no win situation for the dogs or the poor adult or god forbid child who is inevitably going to be near the dogs at the wrong time. So Cesar gives these folks a false sense of hope for some desperate owners where the best idea- although saddest idea- should be to just put the aggressive dogs to sleep.

The only correlation I see between dog training and horse training is: that both species can be and need to be trained and that voice training is beneficial. Not seeing much correlation between methods though. I mean you could I guess use treats to train you horse but I wouldn't. Nor would I lunge my dog- lol.

gahawkeye
Jan. 17, 2009, 09:42 AM
We love to watch the show, but it usually results in our Westie barking at the TV! Maybe we need Cesar to help us with barking so we can watch his show!

3dazey
Jan. 17, 2009, 09:52 AM
Everytime I watch his show I see him using excessive force to "train." I personally don't believe that kicking a dog in the head repeatedly to get it's attention is necessary. Positive reinforcement goes a long way to train dogs and horses. Let the flaming begin...:D

Um, I must have missed that episode because I have NEVER seen him kick a dog in the head. Can you please cite which episode/dog that was. I would like to see it before I can make any comment.

It'sintheMomBag
Jan. 17, 2009, 09:54 AM
Everytime I watch his show I see him using excessive force to "train." I personally don't believe that kicking a dog in the head repeatedly to get it's attention is necessary. Positive reinforcement goes a long way to train dogs and horses. Let the flaming begin...:D

I have heard this criticism of Cesar before and resolved to be mindful of it when watching the shows, which we do quite frequently at our house. I have never seen him "kick" a dog in the head. I have seen him use his heel to briefly touch/poke at the back end of a dog (usually a dog who has more severe aggression or dominance issues) while walking the dog in order to get its attention diverted from whatever stimulus was making it ramp up. If this is what you are describing, then using the phrase "repeatedly kicking a dog in the head" does not fairly describe what he's doing.

As to people trying his methods at home without expert supervision, each show has multiple warnings about NOT trying this at home without the guidance of a professional. No matter how many times you warn some people, they will go ahead and try it anyway because of their own hubris or disregard (think of cautions to not let kids operate 4-wheelers, etc. and all the other warnings we see in our daily lives) sometimes with an adverse outcome. Can't really tag Cesar or his show with responsibility for that when they are doing what they reasonably can to educate people about the risks of trying out the methods without the assistance of a dog training professional.

Just my 2 cents.

Eventer55
Jan. 17, 2009, 10:03 AM
Everytime I watch his show I see him using excessive force to "train." I personally don't believe that kicking a dog in the head repeatedly to get it's attention is necessary. Positive reinforcement goes a long way to train dogs and horses. Let the flaming begin...:D

We rarely miss a show and I have yet to see this. Tapping a dog with a foot to get his attention is very different from "kicking a dog in the head repeatedly" There is no flaming involved, you must be watching a different show.

copper1
Jan. 17, 2009, 11:19 AM
Many people don't like Cesar since he puts affection down the list from exercise and discipline. We all know dogs that can use a lot more exercise to contain their exhuberance and thus their poor behavior!
Dogs are pack animals that respect the pack leader and horses are herd animals that respect the herd leader so we need to maintain the role with both animals in order to acheive our goals with them.
I have also heard him say that some dogs cannot be rehabilitated and should be put down and he has in his own pack, dogs that are not suitable to going back to thier owners so he has kept them. He ahs the skills and patience to keep those dogs under control and out of trouble, not all of us could do the same.

bornfreenowexpensive
Jan. 17, 2009, 11:32 AM
Many people don't like Cesar since he puts affection down the list from exercise and discipline. We all know dogs that can use a lot more exercise to contain their exhuberance and thus their poor behavior!
Dogs are pack animals that respect the pack leader and horses are herd animals that respect the herd leader so we need to maintain the role with both animals in order to acheive our goals with them.
I have also heard him say that some dogs cannot be rehabilitated and should be put down and he has in his own pack, dogs that are not suitable to going back to thier owners so he has kept them. He ahs the skills and patience to keep those dogs under control and out of trouble, not all of us could do the same.


I agree. I think the thing he is most opposed to is irresponsible owners that put down "problem dogs". My current Rottie is just 2....I got her at 10 weeks old when her "owners" decided to put her down since they wanted a Shitzu instead of a Rottie.

There is a beagle puppy (about 10 weeks old) looking for a home whose owners abandoned him at doggie daycare because they decided they wanted a bigger dog.

People buy a large active strong breed who have NEVER had a dog....or worse, rescue such a dog without the skills to take on such a rescue (who is going to be tougher)...and then are surprised when the dog starts having issues. Or a little fufu dog that never has had anysort of training....and are surprised when little fufu picks fights with bigger dogs getting little fufu hurt.

He isn't afraid to tell people they are the problem.....taking on a dog they shouldn't have, not doing what a responsible dog owner should do. Positive reinforcement is good...but it doesn't work for all dogs and all issues. I watch that show....and am shocked by some of the absolute lack of common sense that some people have.

jn4jenny
Jan. 17, 2009, 11:46 AM
Here comes another flame-worthy comment:

The GOOD natural horsemanship people, meaning the ones who are not nutballs or exploitative greedy jerks, generally follow the same principles that Cesar follows: understand how the animal is hard-wired, understand how that particular species structures itself and keeps order in the wild, and then use it for the good of the animal. And to Cesar Milan's credit, he openly admits that that's all he's doing and that it takes extensive training *in the presence of a professional* before it can be safely replicated by an amateur and that it doesn't require any kind of special gadget. If only all of our NH practitioners operated that way.

However, Cesar also openly acknowledges that horses and dogs are different. Yes, they share the desire for a calm and assertive pack leader, but the way that pack leader responds to an unbalanced subordinate is not the same. Cesar, who grew up around horses, has alluded to this on the show.

cyberbay
Jan. 17, 2009, 03:28 PM
jn4jenny - would just say that the GOOD nh people are just good horsemen to begin with. Good horsemen have always worked with the horse and shaped it from the horse's own inclinations. Good horsemanship solves 90% of the problem; the remaining 10% might indeed benefit from the advice of a good nh, or some sort of specialist. You don't need fancy hoola hoops and lead ropes; you also have to realistic about what you want from the horse --is it a fantasy to make up for the loneliness in your life (which we all suffer from in greater/lesser degrees) or are you acting in the best interests of the animal, with its natural limitations and talents?

I love watching Cesar b/c it's nice to see a realistic approach to animals, and it underscores the realistic relationship you have to have with them -- vs. treating them like a stuffed toy...

And agree with Super STB -- a little printed disclaimer at the bottom of the TV screen doesn't offset the ellipses of the show. Like, how much repetition -- like, a ton of it, people!! -- is needed to replace an ingrained behavior; like using sharp! jerks on the leash to get the attn; making the animal somewhat fatigued for compliance. Not against any of this, but these are tools for the expert who know how much is the right amount. Not tools for someone who's style is to be sweet on their pet... And, at the end of the day, how much the person needs to be disciplined with themselves to make the dog a success.

twofatponies
Jan. 17, 2009, 03:35 PM
What always cracks me up is a certain dog food ad they run, often during his show. It shows a woman with a golden retriever that jumps up on her to the point of knocking her off balance and runs rampant like a wild thing, while she says something along the lines of "oh, my sweet doggie - it's the special dog food that gives him this wonderful energy..."

Sithly
Jan. 17, 2009, 06:28 PM
Cyberbay and Jn4Jenny -- great posts. Very well said.

Dr. Doolittle
Jan. 17, 2009, 06:40 PM
What always cracks me up is a certain dog food ad they run, often during his show. It shows a woman with a golden retriever that jumps up on her to the point of knocking her off balance and runs rampant like a wild thing, while she says something along the lines of "oh, my sweet doggie - it's the special dog food that gives him this wonderful energy..."


:rolleyes:

Yes, and those ads tend to undermine what the show is trying to accomplish in terms of dog behavior...:sigh:

(The hubby always says that most people "get their impressions of how dogs are supposed to behave by watching TV", where badly behaved dogs are portrayed as "cute and funny". He also says that people buy or rescue dogs "based on emotion", and too often don't do their homework; don't do research beforehand so that they know what to expect; fail to prepare themselves OR the family for what's required, etc., etc. He also says this about people who buy horses! Smart man, considering that he knew *nothing* about dogs or horses before I met him 20 years ago. He's very observant, though, and listens carefully. ;))

Sadly, I have to agree with most of what he says!

The other posters made some good points, which is *why* people should take the time to train their dogs--take them to obedience classes if they have never (successfully) trained a dog before, or if the dog is a puppy, and needs socialization. (All dogs need to learn socialization, really--but people often don't know how to do this!)

How many newbie horse owners acquire a horse, and then feel they do NOT need to take lessons or seek out advice from more experienced trainers as to what to do--feeling that "I should just instinctively know how to do this, and the horse should just do it" without any training? Of course many dogs are fine with clueless owners, but then again, many are not. (I have seen hundreds in the latter catagory in my classes, and I would like to think that training the OWNERS--over time--has helped save some of these problem dogs from the doggie gas chamber. It takes more than an hour-long show, of course, to explain and educate as to how to "shape behavior"--and though the basic principles of obedience training are fairly straighforward, every dog is also an individual, so it helps to have a trainer working with each dog/owner over a period of time, so as to be able to tweak and refine their techniques, and deal with "extinction bursts" and other evasions--helping the owner to hang in there, be consistent, and not get frustrated and give up...)

As for the dog/horse training connection, I think there are many things about how Cesar trains that "cross over" to horse training; "exercise, discipline, then affection" being one of them, and "calm, assertive energy" being another important one. (Just think about all the horse owners who don't abide by these principles--in fact do the opposite--and whose horses have "behavior issues" as a result, and you will see what I mean. This said, I am the MUSHIEST trainer *ever*; there is NO positive action that doesn't receive praise from me; I encourage this in all my students, too--so affection is an extremely important part of what I teach. More often overlooked by *riders* than by dog owner, for the most part...But still, these aforementioned things are very good examples of what works for dogs *and* horses, listed above--thank you Cesar ;))

And I have NEVER seen him kick a dog in the head! :confused:

"Snapping them out of their excited, fixated state" by tapping their rump with his foot, or giving a quick, sharp upward tug on the leash is NOT abuse.

AiryFairy
Jan. 17, 2009, 06:52 PM
Cesar was raised on a farm with horses, he had them before dogs, on one show he made mention of the fact that there are parallels with being sure of your intent and how it affects the behavior of the animal, there are many, IMO, I've used them myself. I love his instincts and common sense.

Accusing him of 'repeatedly kicking a dog in the head' is perhaps the most blatant trolling I've ever heard on this board, both pathetic and laughable at the same time.

Toadie's mom
Jan. 17, 2009, 11:41 PM
Cesar was raised on a farm with horses, he had them before dogs, on one show he made mention of the fact that there are parallels with being sure of your intent and how it affects the behavior of the animal, there are many, IMO, I've used them myself. I love his instincts and common sense.

Accusing him of 'repeatedly kicking a dog in the head' is perhaps the most blatant trolling I've ever heard on this board, both pathetic and laughable at the same time.

Troll is right. I've watched most of his shows, and have several taped, and I've never seen him kick a dog in the head. I have seen him "bump" a dog on it's side. Usually not even hard enough to knock it off balance, just to redirect it's attention to him! What some people are missing is that a lot of these dogs are extreme cases. My 4 dogs are never perfect all the time, but they are, at worst, annoying not dangerous.

I'd hate for the troll to come watch me ride my 4yr. old. Bella's thinking lately that dressage is too hard and sometimes, heaven forbid, I have to turn my toe out and really put my heel into her to make her move off my leg. Biggest reaction I usually get is an ear flicked back. OH, r u talking to me;)

MelantheLLC
Jan. 18, 2009, 01:36 AM
There are a lot of us who don't care much for Cesar who have made that judgment based on the fact that there are better ways to approach dog training which don't depend on a lot of anthropomorphic voodoo about "who's the boss" and having the right mental vibe.

Why not just tell the truth, that animals read the details of our body language to a degree few humans can imagine? You can envision yourself as leader all you want, but if you squeal and jump around when a dog jumps on you, so what? The dog's gonna nip your fingers because you are acting like squealy prey. So forget the leadership and dominance part and just say, "Stand still. Cross your arms. Don't squeal and jump around."

Try The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson for a realistic and generous approach to dogs that doesn't wallow in emotion.

Try Andrew McLean for horses.

Both of these people are not on TV because they aren't selling themselves, they are educating ANYONE on how to train by using the basic non-emotional principles of learning theory which have been demonstrated consistently over decades.

Behavioral training doesn't require a dog guru; it does require a clear understanding of how animals learn using positive and negative reinforcement, concentration, observational skills, timing and a plan. It doesn't blame the animal either--but it doesn't get side-tracked in emotional labels like "dominance," much less "leadership" as if animals are gonna register to vote.

It doesn't require "Do Not Try This At Home" warnings either. That alone ought to make anybody wonder about the wide usefulness of Cesar's approach. Either he is teaching the general public usable methods or he's a professional handling animals that should not be handled by amateurs. The latter makes for dramatic tv but that doesn't mean it's the best way for the Jones family to train their golden not to guard the food bowl from the kids.

Victoria Stillwell is a good TV trainer. Cesar, meh.

Whisper
Jan. 18, 2009, 02:11 AM
I haven't watched his show, but I'm surprised about the "don't try this at home" thing. I thought the whole point of (domestic) animal training shows (whether horses or dogs) is to give people tools and strategies that they will find helpful with their own animals. We've only had 3 dogs (all were well-behaved and easy to train), and I had lots of different critters when I was in 4-H. Different species do tend to need different training tools and somewhat different approaches, but they all work primarily off of body language, repetition, and appropriate rewards. Where you want the animal to place itself varies by showring standards (horse's shoulder, dog's head, pig's hind leg, chicken's wing, etc.), but they all seemed to learn it in a fairly similar fashion. All animals, regardless of species, should also be comfortable with being handled anywhere on their body, and put up with mild discomfort without responding with fear/agression, and should not be pushy about food.

AiryFairy
Jan. 18, 2009, 07:33 AM
There are a lot of us who don't care much for Cesar who have made that judgment based on the fact that there are better ways to approach dog training which don't depend on a lot of anthropomorphic voodoo about "who's the boss" and having the right mental vibe.

Why not just tell the truth, that animals read the details of our body language to a degree few humans can imagine? You can envision yourself as leader all you want, but if you squeal and jump around when a dog jumps on you, so what? The dog's gonna nip your fingers because you are acting like squealy prey. So forget the leadership and dominance part and just say, "Stand still. Cross your arms. Don't squeal and jump around."

Try The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson for a realistic and generous approach to dogs that doesn't wallow in emotion.


Have you ever actually watched the show? Because everything you claim it's about is hogwash - either you don't comprehend the subtleties or you've never watched it, there IS no 'wallowing in emotion' in his training methods, just the opposite, in fact.

maxdog
Jan. 18, 2009, 08:28 AM
There are a lot of us who don't care much for Cesar who have made that judgment based on the fact that there are better ways to approach dog training which don't depend on a lot of anthropomorphic voodoo about "who's the boss" and having the right mental vibe.

Why not just tell the truth, that animals read the details of our body language to a degree few humans can imagine? You can envision yourself as leader all you want, but if you squeal and jump around when a dog jumps on you, so what? The dog's gonna nip your fingers because you are acting like squealy prey. So forget the leadership and dominance part and just say, "Stand still. Cross your arms. Don't squeal and jump around."


Behavioral training doesn't require a dog guru; it does require a clear understanding of how animals learn using positive and negative reinforcement, concentration, observational skills, timing and a plan. It doesn't blame the animal either--but it doesn't get side-tracked in emotional labels like "dominance," much less "leadership" as if animals are gonna register to vote.

Victoria Stillwell is a good TV trainer. Cesar, meh.
Yes, Yes! Obviously you understand! I personally believe it is never right to kick your dog, there are better ways to get their attention. You can achieve the same results with positive reinforcement techniques and body language. For those of you who think Caesar isn't abusive, I encourage you to go to a live seminar and see him "take down" a dog.

elctrnc
Jan. 18, 2009, 08:55 AM
I have only watched a new of Cesar's shows, and I was not impressed. The one that stuck with me was about a pit bull that would pull on the leash (and, of course, the dog was too strong for the mother to walk....and definitely couldn't go out with the kids). Cesar's solution was to put a pack on the dog and weight him down with water bottles. Sure, it helped slow the dog down--at that time--but what about when the dog got stronger after carrying water bottles? Was the owner supposed to add more? Then you're going to have a super strong pit....and I fear for what happens when the dog goes on a walk without the water weights.....

On that note, anyone remember the lawsuit where a TV producer sued Cesar and his training facility because his dog was injured there? Supposedly the dog went there for fear issues, and the training consisted of a choke collar and a treadmill. Dog ended up at the vet because he was bleeding from his nose and mouth and it was found that he had severe bruising on his back legs. Can't imagine what they were trying to do there....

From what I saw, Cesar's training is mostly positive punishment. Jean Donaldson, mentioned above, is positive reinforcement. I personally used positive reinforcement to train my dogs. A lot of people think positive punishment is the way to train dogs (Monks of New Skeet, anyone?). Positive punishment is common in horse training, so I can see where people see the correlation. There is clicker training (which is postitive reinforcement) for horses (Alexandra Kurland), but most people laugh at it and think it's stupid (I think this has been discussed on COTH).

It all depends on what you believe, how you communicate, and what works for you.

twofatponies
Jan. 18, 2009, 08:56 AM
People get TV shows because they have charisma and can keep the attention of an audience.

There seems to be some opinion that CM shouldn't have a dog training show on TV because some idiots might watch it, not understand it clearly, and try to train their own dog and do it wrong. (I think we need a loldog here)

On the other side of that coin, there are a lot of people who never leave their couches and might be inspired to actually put down the doritos and try to train their dog. So they mess up. The dog's already messed up.

The world is full of skills that require discipline, practice and intelligence. Not everyone can handle that. I don't think the world should be censored or turned into a padded room to protect idiots from themselves.

DLee
Jan. 18, 2009, 09:08 AM
People who have not created problem dogs don't end up on the show. I've had dogs forever and never had a problem one with any of them. I have never kicked a dog, but my big dogs have occasionally 'run into my foot' as they go tearing by me outside with no respect for my personal space. I am not about to get flattened by a careless dog, nor have them send small children or older people sprawling. I'm sure I'd never get a tv show. :lol:

Cesar is so far from abusive it's not even funny. I'm amazed anyone has a show of any kind on any more. I am glad he continues to help dogs and people, in spite of the criticism.

twofatponies
Jan. 18, 2009, 09:21 AM
I'm amazed anyone has a show of any kind on any more.

Too true! Imagine if animal planet had "Advanced Eventing Hour" and "Saddleseat with Tommy J" and "Time for Puissance!" and "Glorious Endurance" and every other discipline and sport???? :D

As my husband and I always joke when people are gnashing their teeth about dangers of TV luring people into doing stupid things: "The children! The children!" (you have to do it in a wailing voice while pretending to tear out your hair).

Anyway. ETA (I'm working on my coffee here!) As far as CMs training applies to horses, I think he teaches some important and useful things, like keeping your body posture calm and movements deliberate; like how to walk a dog productively, with confidence and relaxation; how to be aware of when your "affection" or "excitement" are instigating the dog into bad behavior without you realizing it, etc. I see a lot of owner there, and beginners with horses that are so tentative or inconsistent that the dog/horse can't figure out what they want.

deltawave
Jan. 18, 2009, 09:41 AM
I love Cesar. I don't try to psychoanalyze it too much. :p

PolestarFarm
Jan. 18, 2009, 08:40 PM
Last year, I thought that Cesar should run for president. I could imagine that he would not take any guff from excessively annoying politicians or interest groups! He would grip their heads with his hand, "Psssssht" to them to put them in their place.... and wallah! Peace!

slp2
Jan. 18, 2009, 10:16 PM
I am another Cesar fan. However, I don't know that he would want to expand into dealing with horses. The funniest thing I heard he said is that one animal he can't deal with or attempt to train is CATS!! After all--they don't have any of the pack mentality instincts hard wired into them. I just thought that it was amusing and he obviously knows his limits. ;)

SuperSTB
Jan. 19, 2009, 01:40 AM
Too true! Imagine if animal planet had "Advanced Eventing Hour" and "Saddleseat with Tommy J" and "Time for Puissance!" and "Glorious Endurance" and every other discipline and sport???? :D

As my husband and I always joke when people are gnashing their teeth about dangers of TV luring people into doing stupid things: "The children! The children!" (you have to do it in a wailing voice while pretending to tear out your hair).

Anyway. ETA (I'm working on my coffee here!) As far as CMs training applies to horses, I think he teaches some important and useful things, like keeping your body posture calm and movements deliberate; like how to walk a dog productively, with confidence and relaxation; how to be aware of when your "affection" or "excitement" are instigating the dog into bad behavior without you realizing it, etc. I see a lot of owner there, and beginners with horses that are so tentative or inconsistent that the dog/horse can't figure out what they want.

Yes but you have to think of just beyond the immediate... that is... stupid people do stupid things and sometimes bystanders get caught in the mix.

You know for a fact that some idiot out there has an agressive biting dog and shouldn't. The idiot owner isn't going to *pay* for real training but thinks that by watching a few Cesar episodes is going to make everything okay.

hence 'false hope'

AND because of this... In the meantime (while idiot owner goes deep into lalaland of being the next ultimate dog trainer) the dog has the potential to inflict some serious harm on another human being.

citydog
Jan. 19, 2009, 02:13 AM
I'm not alone in my opinion that Cesar Millan is a dangerous hack with a *very*, shall we say, "conveniently" edited show. I hope to God he doesn't spread his crap to the horse world.



http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm (Responses to common statements from fans)
http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/2006-05-05-dog-whisperer_x.htm (Lawsuit due to injury as a result of his methods)
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950CE3DF1E3EF932A0575BC0A9609C8B 63 (New York Times)
http://www.urbandawgs.com/luescher_millan.html (DVM Behaviorist from Purdue examines Millan's techniques)
http://www.iaabc.org/articles/dog_whisperer.htm (Concerns about child safety from the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants)
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/15/CMGPHL9D1N1.DTL (Comparison of Millan to a qualified trainer)

Quotes:

World-renowned dog trainers, behaviorists and veterinarians had all warned National Geographic that Millan’s methods had the potential for disaster. Below are quotes from noted experts:

“Cesar Millan's methods are based on flooding and punishment. The results, though immediate, will be only transitory. His methods are misguided, outmoded, in some cases dangerous, and often inhumane. You would not want to be a dog under his sphere of influence. The sad thing is that the public does not recognize the error of his ways. My college thinks it is a travesty. We’ve written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years.”
Dr. Nicholas Dodman - Professor and Head, Section of Animal Behavior
Director of Behavior Clinic, Tufts University - Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine

“Practices such as physically confronting aggressive dogs and using of choke collars for fearful dogs are outrageous by even the most diluted dog training standards. A profession that has been making steady gains in its professionalism, technical sophistication and humane standards has been greatly set back. I have long been deeply troubled by the popularity of Mr. Millan as so many will emulate him. To co-opt a word like ‘whispering’ for arcane, violent and technically unsound practice is unconscionable.”
Jean Donaldson, The San Francisco SPCA-Director of The Academy for Dog Trainers

"A number of qualified professionals have voiced concern for the welfare of pet dogs that experience the strong corrections administered by Mr. Millan. My concerns are based on his inappropriateness, inaccurate statements, and complete fabrications of explanations for dog behavior. His ideas, especially those about “dominance”, are completely disconnected from the sciences of ethology and animal learning, which are our best hope for understanding and training our dogs and meeting their behavioral needs. Many of the techniques he encourages the public to try are dangerous, and not good for dogs or our relationships with them ."
Dr. Suzanne Hetts, Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist
Co-owner of Animal Behavior Associates, Inc., Littleton, CO

"Cesar Millan employs outdated methods that are dangerous and inhumane. Using a choke chain and treadmill to treat fear of strangers and dogs is completely inappropriate. Hopefully the National Geographic Channel will listen to the scientific community and discontinue production of The Dog Whisperer."
Vyolet Michaels, CTC (Certified Dog Trainer and Behavior Counselor)
Owner of Urban Dawgs, LLC of Red Bank, NJ

"On his TV show, the main method Millan uses for aggression is aversives (leash jerks, kicks, snaps of the hand against the neck, and restraint, among others) applied non contingently. The aversives are non contingent because they are so frequent that they're not connected to any particular behavior on the part of the dog—the dog gets popped pretty much constantly. This results in a state called learned helplessness, which means the animal hunkers down and tries to do as little as possible. This is what Millan calls "calm submission." It's exactly the same thing you see in a rat in a Skinner box that is subjected to intermittent shocks it can do nothing to avoid. This can happen quite fast, by the way, shall we say in ten minutes? The dangers to the dog are obvious, ranging from chronic stress to exacerbating the aggression, i.e., some dogs fight back when attacked. This latter is the simplest reason that aversives are a bad idea in treating aggression. Even used technically correctly as positive punishment for specific behaviors like growling and snarling, aversives do nothing to change the underlying fear or hostility, so the best you can hope for, in the words of famed vet and behaviorist, Ian Dunbar, is "removing the ticker from the time bomb." Thus such methods substantially increase the risk to humans of getting bitten."
Janis Bradley, Instructor at The San Franciso SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers
Author of the book, "Dogs Bite"

Excerpt of letter from Lisa Laney, Dip. DTBC, CPDT, CBC to National Geographic before airing “The Dog Whisperer”:
“The intended program depicts aversive and abusive training methods - treatment for some serious anxiety and fear based issues - being administered by an individual with no formal education whatsoever in canine behavioral sciences. The "results" that are shown are more than likely not long lasting changes, but the result of learned helplessness, or fatigue, neither of which impact behavior to any significant long term degree - at least not in a good way. For those of us who are pioneering the effort to end the ignorance that drives the cruel treatment administered upon our canine companions, it is disappointing to see that this programming will reach the masses - especially on the NG Channel. The ignorance that this program perpetuates will give equally ignorant people the green light to subject their dogs to abuse. In turn these dogs will react even more defensively, will bite more people - and end up dead.”

"I have serious concerns because his methods are often intimidating rather than motivating. On TV, the dogs do comply but often they're being forced to - you can tell by their body language: tail down, mouth closed, ears back, eyes dilated... I argue that motivating leadership is far more effective than leading through intimidation."
Steve Dale

"Millan's techniques are almost exclusively based on two techniques: Flooding and positive punishment. In flooding, an animal is exposed to a fear (or aggression) evoking stimulus and prevented from leaving the situation, until it stops reacting. To take a human example: arachnophobia would be treated by locking a person into a closet, releasing hundreds of spiders into that closet, and keeping the door shut until the person stops reacting. The person might be cured by that, but also might be severely disturbed and would have gone through an excessive amount of stress. Flooding has therefore always been considered a risky and cruel method of treatment.

. . . The last episode (compulsive disorder) is particularly unsettling because compulsive disorder is related to an imbalance in neurotransmitter levels or receptors, and is therefore unequivocally a medical condition. Would it be appropriate to treat obsessive compulsive disorder in people with punishment? Or have a layperson go around treating such patients?" -Andrew Luescher, DVM

"Mr. Millan builds his philosophy from a simplistic conception of the dog's ''natural'' pack, controlled by a dominant alpha animal (usually male). In his scheme, that leader is the human, which leads to the conclusion that all behavior problems in dogs derive from the failure of the owner or owners to dominate. (Conveniently, by this logic, if Mr. Millan's intervention doesn't produce lasting results, it is the owner's fault.)

Women are the worst offenders in his world. In one of the outtakes included in the four-DVD set of the first season of ''Dog Whisperer,'' Mr. Millan explains that a woman is ''the only species that is wired different from the rest.'' And a ''woman always applies affection before discipline,'' he says. ''Man applies discipline then affection, so we're more psychological than emotional. All animals follow dominant leaders; they don't follow lovable leaders.''
-Mark Derr, author of ''A Dog's History of America: How Our Best Friend Explored, Conquered and Settled a Continent.''


American Veterinary Society of Behavior position on use of dominance theory in behavior modification in animals. (http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance%20statement.pdf)

Bobthehorse
Jan. 19, 2009, 10:58 AM
I would hope no one watches that show and treats it as a how to for dog training. These are not techniques that work for every dog, nor are they safe to do on your own. Most trainers consider him dangerous. Though I will say he seems to have a natural ability with the critters, because of his natural energy. But thats it.

If you are talking about a general energy around animals, then sure. Calm and assertive is always the way to go, with any living creatures. To control your energy, because animals feed off of it. But thats pretty much all you can safely take from his show and apply yourself.

These are methods that are quite controversial in the dog world, and I wouldnt be jumping into any of these things with my dogs are my horses.

Waterwitch
Jan. 19, 2009, 11:16 AM
Have you all made a similar connection to Cesar Millan's canine philosophy and horses?

Absolutely....especially the importance of exercise and calm assertive leadership, and training the calm submissive mind, aspects. Love his smart, down to earth communication style.

Bobthehorse
Jan. 19, 2009, 11:23 AM
For all the people defending his methods based solely on the tv show.....OF COURSE nothing bad happens in the show, its TELEVISION. The horror stories come from people who have used him as a trainer, and NOT been on the show. He is a trainer, he trains tons of dogs off the show. This is where the stories of abuse and such come from. No one is claiming they saw them on a tv show.

Though, I do appreciate him promoting spaying/neutering on tv. Good on him. Because apparently people now consider him the dog god, and at least he is doing the dog world this one giant favour. And he is really right, the people need most of the training, and the vast majority of owners do not exercise their dogs enough.

JWB
Jan. 19, 2009, 11:48 AM
Dogs and horses are very different animals. I don't know how Ceasar would do as a horse trainer, but I certainly don't like what he does as a dog trainer at all.

I have dogs and horses, and train and compete with both. Although I have applied training principles from one to another, they have very different rules. They learn differently and react differently.

Here is what I like about Ceasar as a trainer - He has excellent timing. Maybe that would carry over to the horses.
That said, I find his domination tactics appalling. It's like controling a horse by putting more and more bit in it's mouth. The horse might be good because it's afraid of what will happen if it misbehaves... These animals (horses and dogs) will behave out of fear of the consequences. The down side is that if they see a chance that they can get away with something, they'll usually take it.

If I teach my dog that I'm the pack leader, and I'm the boss, and I get that method across, he's going to listen to me... but what's to make him respect my friends, my child, etc? It creates a dog that is constantly jockying for position in the pack. It's just not safe.

I know it's off topic, since you were actually asking how he'd be as a horse trainer - I don't know - but I don't like him as a dog trainer. Try Victoria Stillwell (It's Me or the Dog) instead.

Teach
Jan. 19, 2009, 03:25 PM
Behavioral training doesn't require a dog guru; it does require a clear understanding of how animals learn using positive and negative reinforcement, concentration, observational skills, timing and a plan. It doesn't blame the animal either--but it doesn't get side-tracked in emotional labels like "dominance," much less "leadership" as if animals are gonna register to vote.

It doesn't require "Do Not Try This At Home" warnings either. That alone ought to make anybody wonder about the wide usefulness of Cesar's approach. Either he is teaching the general public usable methods or he's a professional handling animals that should not be handled by amateurs. The latter makes for dramatic tv but that doesn't mean it's the best way for the Jones family to train their golden not to guard the food bowl from the kids.

Victoria Stillwell is a good TV trainer. Cesar, meh.

I have been in dogs professionally as a breeder, trainer, & handler (although I've retired from heavy competition now) for probably 25-30 years & I couldn't have said it better myself. I know very few pros or serious amateur dog people who like Cesar--he seems (to me, anyway) to be kind of the Pat Parelli of the dog world. A lot of his methods were commonly in use years ago in "the bad old days", & have since been abandoned by thinking trainers (ie: I have never 'stung up' a dog, & I don't intend to). I will also say that my specialty was Sighthounds (Whippets, Irish Wolfhound, Scottish Deerhound, Greyhound, Borzoi) & most his techniques strike me as singularly un-useful for that type of dog. Very little gets done with them because you are 'dominant'--it they don't respect you & care what you think, it ain't happening! Plus, I can't stand his 'views' on women & why they make 'inferior' trainers. I did, however, laugh at the episode of South Park where Cartman's mom calls Cesar in to retrain her out-of-control son--I believe it's called "Tsst".

I too really like Victoria Stillwell http://www.victoriastillwell.com & recommend her whenever I'm asked.

chestnutmarebeware
Jan. 20, 2009, 10:37 AM
I am another Cesar fan. However, I don't know that he would want to expand into dealing with horses. The funniest thing I heard he said is that one animal he can't deal with or attempt to train is CATS!! After all--they don't have any of the pack mentality instincts hard wired into them. I just thought that it was amusing and he obviously knows his limits. ;)

Now I would sign up for cable JUST to see someone be a "Cat Whisperer!"

deltawave
Jan. 20, 2009, 11:04 AM
I am a certified Cat-Mutterer-Under-Breath practitioner. :D

bornfreenowexpensive
Jan. 20, 2009, 11:09 AM
The lawyer in me feels the need to say something about the "don't try this at home" thing. That is a purely caution and cover thy ass statement for ANY show. Stupid people will do stupid things and then try and blame (i.e. sue) someone....anyone. If ANYONE has any sort of show...Cesar or Victoria....they would be smart to have such a statement.


I honestly don't find anything he does all that unique...although he does have very good timing. I have seen shows where he uses mostly positive re-enforcement....it depends on the dog's issue and personality. And honestly, I've found that true with all dogs....how my Rotties have learned verse how my Boarder Collie have been VERY different. And he is very clear that this is not dog obedience or even training....just basic skills on interactions and expectations for your dog....like don't expect a dog that isn't given enough exercise to easily be able to contain that engery and "behave"....or don't hype up your already hyper dog by screaming in a high pitched squeally voice. It is all very common sense. Not any different than I feel about NH trainers. He is entertaining to watch....but most responsible dog owners already have those basic skills.....most don't die their dogs pink to match their decor;)

Bobthehorse
Jan. 20, 2009, 04:17 PM
Oh yeah, along with his outspoken support of spaying/neutering, I also do appreciate his public defense of the maligned breeds. It cant be denied that the general, uninformed public does see this man as the expert on dogs, so his support does matter, and make a difference.

Go Daddy!:D

Mozart
Jan. 20, 2009, 04:54 PM
Wow, I feel like I have been watching a different show than the critics. I have never seen him kick a dog. I don't seen him using emotional responses. I have not seen him use aversion. Those tugs on the leash were, I thought, about re-establishing the dog's focus. The fact that they always give the "don't try this at home" message I took as a warning to those yahoos who watch a few episodes and then feel they are capable of dealing with an aggressive dog.

He admits he is not good at training specific tasks, I have seen him bring in other trainers to take on that type of training.

I thought his take home messages were:
Dogs are meant to be active, get off your butt and exercise your dog. Your dog gets out for 10 minutes a day and you wonder why he shreds your couch?
Maintain calm assertiveness (nothing wrong with that)
Think about your timing. Haven't you watched episodes, seen owners ignore signs that the dog is about to lose all focus on them and want to yell at the TV "Hey buddy! Pay attention to what is happening?"


While the dynamics of horses are different (which he concedes) I do think you would not go far wrong applying some of his principles to horses. Especially the exercise and timing advice.

To those critics, I would really like to see specific examples of dogs that should have been handled differently.

I actually saw his methods and his message as exceedingly humane!

I will add though that I think a lot of his success has to do with his own attitude and demeanour and I wonder if the owners will be able to maintain the success once he is gone. It seems that a lot of the dogs that he deals with on the show instantly behave differently when he shows up. Like the horse that no one can get on the trailer and then someone new just takes the lead rope and the horse follows them up the ramp!

Dr. Doolittle
Jan. 20, 2009, 09:56 PM
Wow, I feel like I have been watching a different show than the critics. I have never seen him kick a dog. I don't seen him using emotional responses. I have not seen him use aversion. Those tugs on the leash were, I thought, about re-establishing the dog's focus. The fact that they always give the "don't try this at home" message I took as a warning to those yahoos who watch a few episodes and then feel they are capable of dealing with an aggressive dog.

He admits he is not good at training specific tasks, I have seen him bring in other trainers to take on that type of training.

I thought his take home messages were:
Dogs are meant to be active, get off your butt and exercise your dog. Your dog gets out for 10 minutes a day and you wonder why he shreds your couch?
Maintain calm assertiveness (nothing wrong with that)
Think about your timing. Haven't you watched episodes, seen owners ignore signs that the dog is about to lose all focus on them and want to yell at the TV "Hey buddy! Pay attention to what is happening?"


While the dynamics of horses are different (which he concedes) I do think you would not go far wrong applying some of his principles to horses. Especially the exercise and timing advice.

To those critics, I would really like to see specific examples of dogs that should have been handled differently.

I actually saw his methods and his message as exceedingly humane!

I will add though that I think a lot of his success has to do with his own attitude and demeanour and I wonder if the owners will be able to maintain the success once he is gone. It seems that a lot of the dogs that he deals with on the show instantly behave differently when he shows up. Like the horse that no one can get on the trailer and then someone new just takes the lead rope and the horse follows them up the ramp!

Excellent post, Mozart :yes:

I think that it's important to weigh any (purported) negatives against the good he has done; I'm sure that Cesar has saved *many* dogs from fates they didn't deserve (in addition to the many members of his "pack" ;))

elctrnc
Jan. 22, 2009, 01:06 PM
I don't think that training a fearful dog with a choke collar and a treadmill is "humane." I don't think choke collars are "humane" at all....but that's just me. But, Mozart, there's a specific example of a dog that I think should have been handled differently. Can you explain to me how a choke collar and a treadmill is going to help a fearful dog?

Falconfree
Jan. 24, 2009, 01:24 PM
Try The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson for a realistic and generous approach to dogs that doesn't wallow in emotion.

Try Andrew McLean for horses.

Both of these people are not on TV because they aren't selling themselves, they are educating ANYONE on how to train by using the basic non-emotional principles of learning theory which have been demonstrated consistently over decades.

Behavioral training doesn't require a dog guru; it does require a clear understanding of how animals learn using positive and negative reinforcement, concentration, observational skills, timing and a plan. It doesn't blame the animal either--but it doesn't get side-tracked in emotional labels like "dominance," much less "leadership" as if animals are gonna register to vote.

Seconded. Also, pretty much anything by Karen Pryor is good.

Not that I think Milan is the bane of the dog world, far from it, I just don't think he is "all that and a bag of chips". I love that he tells the owners who the real problem is (though most tv dog trainers do that), and I also love his emphasis on exercise, since most dogs get next to none.

AiryFairy
Jan. 25, 2009, 12:04 AM
For all the people defending his methods based solely on the tv show.....OF COURSE nothing bad happens in the show, its TELEVISION. The horror stories come from people who have used him as a trainer, and NOT been on the show.

Horror stories? How many? I know of one, someone on his staff using a treadmill and a dog hung himself up with his choke collar. Cesar wasn't even there, and the person doing it shouldn't have left the dog alone - you can hardly claim Cesar abused the dog when he had nothing to do with it. You're being a bit melodramatic about "horror stories", methinks.

elctrnc
Jan. 25, 2009, 10:14 AM
Horror stories? How many? I know of one, someone on his staff using a treadmill and a dog hung himself up with his choke collar. Cesar wasn't even there, and the person doing it shouldn't have left the dog alone - you can hardly claim Cesar abused the dog when he had nothing to do with it. You're being a bit melodramatic about "horror stories", methinks.

Are you serious?!?!!? You don't think Cesar has any responsibility in that? It was HIS facility and HIS staff! Who do you think trained his staff?? You don't think a manager of an establishment is responsible for the conduct of his or her employees? Sheesh. Unreal.

Oh, and nobody has yet to answer my question on WHY this dog was being "trained" with a choke collar and a treadmill. I am sure that dog wasn't the only one.

Obviously, people will believe what they want to believe and make up all sorts of excuses (like this person above). :rolleyes: Carry on.

And, no, I hope that Cesar does not start training horses. Although, maybe he has a chance of being the next Parelli. He is obviously good at marketing himself. :lol: And people believe him!!

Bobthehorse
Jan. 25, 2009, 05:46 PM
Horror stories? How many? I know of one, someone on his staff using a treadmill and a dog hung himself up with his choke collar. Cesar wasn't even there, and the person doing it shouldn't have left the dog alone - you can hardly claim Cesar abused the dog when he had nothing to do with it. You're being a bit melodramatic about "horror stories", methinks.

You thinks wrong. I know of several people with dogs with fear issues that his dominance tricks only made worse. Shoving a dog into the ground and pressing on their throat to make them submit may not phase every dog, but ones that already have fear issues, that sort of crap can send them even further into their own hell. Dogs that have been beaten before dont do well with those little kicks he dishes out either (he does it on tv, while he is walking the dogs, to "re-focus" them). Some dogs can handle his antics, and some really really cant.

And yes, if its happens on his property, with his employees, while he is getting paid - its IS his responsibility.

AiryFairy
Jan. 25, 2009, 05:54 PM
You thinks wrong. I know of several people with dogs with fear issues that his dominance tricks only made worse. Shoving a dog into the ground and pressing on their throat to make them submit may not phase every dog, but ones that already have fear issues, that sort of crap can send them even further into their own hell. Dogs that have been beaten before dont do well with those little kicks he dishes out either (he does it on tv, while he is walking the dogs, to "re-focus" them). Some dogs can handle his antics, and some really really cant.

And yes, if its happens on his property, with his employees, while he is getting paid - its IS his responsibility.

You know of several people with dogs with fear issues that his dominance tricks only made worse? Did Cesar himself work with these dogs, or did the owners decided to ignore the warnings about not trying his methods without the help of a professional? Taking a fearful dog and shoving it to the ground is gobsmackingly STUPID, what the hell were they thinking? A fearful dog does not need dominance, it needs confidence and leadership. Sounds like your friends shouldn't be using his methods unless they get some professionals to help them.

leakyb
Jan. 25, 2009, 06:05 PM
I attended a seminar with Cesar here in Atlanta in December (someone gave me a free ticket!). It was more a fan club gathering, I guess you could call it. There were a few slides put up referring to some of his TV episodes ...but I don't watch his show except for 2x a year so I had no reference point. He talked a lot about him growing up in Mexico, his wife, made some mention of dog training hot topics from a few of the shows, and that was about it. He seemed like a nice enough guy but I did not learn a thing about dog training!

There was no cut and dry explanation of his approach, techniques, except the one we all know from his ads...exercise, discipline, affection. I don't have a disagreement with those suggestions for dog ownership. There are certainly enough fat, spoiled, under exercised dogs in the good old USA. However, there were a few rescue dogs brought out who were said to have issues; none of the dogs did anything on stage except a fear biter bit Cesar when he provoked it to show us how not to approach a fearful dog.
He took that dog back to his facilty to work with and then return for adoption. So- we never saw him work with one dog the entire afternoon! We did not even see photos/slides of specific scenarios and his step by step explanation of how he got from point A to B etc. He did not address what exactly what he would do for that little biter once he got it home with him.

I am a dog obedience nut, so it was puzzling to me that a dog seminar would have no dog training at all! I am hesitant about people who do not show what is going on to the general public....you can go any weekend to a good dog training seminar and train your dog, much less audit other people working with well renowned dog training gurus.

If you want to train your dog, find a good local dog trainer and take classes...read up on books by Karen Pryor, Pat Miller, Diane Bauman to name a few.

As far as horse training...I think not! Cesar made mention they had farm animals when he was a boy, so I got the impression they had work animals only. Not the same as rehabbing an OTTB! Horses and dogs really do not learn the same. Dogs are problem solvers.

Bobthehorse
Jan. 25, 2009, 06:23 PM
You know of several people with dogs with fear issues that his dominance tricks only made worse? Did Cesar himself work with these dogs, or did the owners decided to ignore the warnings about not trying his methods without the help of a professional? Taking a fearful dog and shoving it to the ground is gobsmackingly STUPID, what the hell were they thinking? A fearful dog does not need dominance, it needs confidence and leadership. Sounds like your friends shouldn't be using his methods unless they get some professionals to help them.

Tell that to Cesar. He has shoved many a dog down with hand on throat on the show. These are people who live in the California area and did go to Cesar himself, not borrowed his tactics from the show.

Go Fish
Jan. 26, 2009, 08:55 PM
However, Cesar also openly acknowledges that horses and dogs are different. Yes, they share the desire for a calm and assertive pack leader, but the way that pack leader responds to an unbalanced subordinate is not the same. Cesar, who grew up around horses, has alluded to this on the show.

Good point...horses are prey and dogs are hunters. The flight or fight response is applicable here...

Aven
Jan. 26, 2009, 09:21 PM
Umm I hope he doesn't. His methods are denounced not only by people like

the director of behaviour and Purdue university
(http://landofpuregold.com/the-pdfs/response2milan.pdf)

and the AVSAB
(http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance%20statement.pdf)

To professionals who actually fix dog problems
(http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm)

Others who have spoken out against his methods..

the American Humane Society
(http://www.americanhumane.org/about-us/newsroom/news-releases/06-dog-whisperer.html)

http://www.stevedalepetworld.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=203&Itemid=71

A very interesting book review http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/public_education/BookReviews/cesar%20milan%20-%20kathy%20meyer%20review.pdf by a veterinary behaviourist.

The Ohio State University College of Veterinary. (http://www.vet.ohio-state.edu/2725.htm)

The IAABC, the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants (http://k9management.wordpress.com/2007/04/14/iaabc-concerns-regarding-child-safety-on-national-geographics-dog-whisperer-show/)

the president of the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists http://www.stevedalepetworld.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=204&Itemid=71

News clip.. umm he doesn't do himself any favours here
http://www.komonews.com/home/video/37440019.html?video=pop&t=a

Most of the dog trainers and pretty much all behaviourists out there hate what this man is doing.. and no its not out of jealousy.. these people have nothing to gain from denouncing him. In fact these are the very people who would be praising him to the sky if he was doing it 'right'

A few quotes (from many people helping dogs far more than he has)


Dr. Nicholas Dodman - Professor and Head, Section of Animal Behavior
Director of Behavior Clinic, Tufts University - Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine
“Cesar Millan's methods are based on flooding and punishment. The results, though immediate, will be only transitory. His methods are misguided, outmoded, in some cases dangerous, and often inhumane. You would not want to be a dog under his sphere of influence. The sad thing is that the public does not recognize the error of his ways. My college thinks it is a travesty. We’ve written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years.”

Jean Donaldson, The San Francisco SPCA-Director of The Academy for Dog Trainers
“Practices such as physically confronting aggressive dogs and using of choke collars for fearful dogs are outrageous by even the most diluted dog training standards. A profession that has been making steady gains in its professionalism, technical sophistication and humane standards has been greatly set back. I have long been deeply troubled by the popularity of Mr. Millan as so many will emulate him. To co-opt a word like ‘whispering’ for arcane, violent and technically unsound practice is unconscionable.”

Dr. Suzanne Hetts, Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist
Co-owner of Animal Behavior Associates, Inc., Littleton, CO
"A number of qualified professionals have voiced concern for the welfare of pet dogs that experience the strong corrections administered by Mr. Millan. My concerns are based on his inappropriateness, inaccurate statements, and complete fabrications of explanations for dog behavior. His ideas, especially those about “dominance”, are completely disconnected from the sciences of ethology and animal learning, which are our best hope for understanding and training our dogs and meeting their behavioral needs. Many of the techniques he encourages the public to try are dangerous, and not good for dogs or our relationships with them ."

Vyolet Michaels, CTC, CPDT (Certified Dog Trainer and Behavior Counselor)
Owner of Urban Dawgs, LLC of Red Bank, NJ
"Cesar Millan employs outdated methods that are dangerous and inhumane. Using a choke chain and treadmill to treat fear of strangers and dogs is completely inappropriate. Hopefully the National Geographic Channel will listen to the scientific community and discontinue production of The Dog Whisperer."

Janis Bradley, Instructor at The San Franciso SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers
Author of the book, "Dogs Bite"
"On his TV show, the main method Millan uses for aggression is aversives (leash jerks, kicks, snaps of the hand against the neck, and restraint, among others) applied non contingently. The aversives are non contingent because they are so frequent that they're not connected to any particular behavior on the part of the dog—the dog gets popped pretty much constantly. This results in a state called learned helplessness, which means the animal hunkers down and tries to do as little as possible. This is what Millan calls "calm submission." It's exactly the same thing you see in a rat in a Skinner box that is subjected to intermittent shocks it can do nothing to avoid. This can happen quite fast, by the way, shall we say in ten minutes? The dangers to the dog are obvious, ranging from chronic stress to exacerbating the aggression, i.e., some dogs fight back when attacked. This latter is the simplest reason that aversives are a bad idea in treating aggression. Even used technically correctly as positive punishment for specific behaviors like growling and snarling, aversives do nothing to change the underlying fear or hostility, so the best you can hope for, in the words of famed vet and behaviorist, Ian Dunbar, is "removing the ticker from the time bomb." Thus such methods substantially increase the risk to humans of getting bitten."

Excerpt of letter from Lisa Laney, Dip. DTBC, CPDT, CBC
to National Geographic before airing “The Dog Whisperer”:
“The intended program depicts aversive and abusive training methods - treatment for some serious anxiety and fear based issues - being administered by an individual with no formal education whatsoever in canine behavioral sciences. The "results" that are shown are more than likely not long lasting changes, but the result of learned helplessness, or fatigue, neither of which impact behavior to any significant long term degree - at least not in a good way. For those of us who are pioneering the effort to end the ignorance that drives the cruel treatment administered upon our canine companions, it is disappointing to see that this programming will reach the masses - especially on the NG Channel. The ignorance that this program perpetuates will give equally ignorant people the green light to subject their dogs to abuse. In turn these dogs will react even more defensively, will bite more people - and end up dead.”

Steve Dale
"I have serious concerns because his methods are often intimidating rather than motivating. On TV, the dogs do comply but often they're being forced to - you can tell by their body language: tail down, mouth closed, ears back, eyes dilated... I argue that motivating leadership is far more effective than leading through intimidation."

"He has put dog training back 20 years"

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
Jan. 26, 2009, 09:32 PM
FWIW, the lawsuit involving CM regarding the dog that got hung up in the treadmill didn't occur the way most are playing it out here.

Apparently, the dog belonged to a "Dog Whisperer" producer who asked if his trainer could use CM's facility as a favor. While one of CM's employees was present, so was the outside trainer hired by the show's producer, and as previously stated, CM was not there at the time. The lawsuit was settled out of court, and the details weren't made public. I am not advocating for or against CM's methods, but I do think a lot of people use this case as an example of how inhumane CM's training is. The truth is, he wasn't there, and another trainer completely uninvolved with the DPC was the one calling the shots when it happened, so if you're going to get hung up on that incident, try to find out who that trainer was and crucify him/her.

Aven
Jan. 26, 2009, 09:39 PM
For all the people defending his methods based solely on the tv show.....OF COURSE nothing bad happens in the show, its TELEVISION. The horror stories come from people who have used him as a trainer, and NOT been on the show. He is a trainer, he trains tons of dogs off the show. This is where the stories of abuse and such come from. No one is claiming they saw them on a tv show.

Though, I do appreciate him promoting spaying/neutering on tv. Good on him. Because apparently people now consider him the dog god, and at least he is doing the dog world this one giant favour. And he is really right, the people need most of the training, and the vast majority of owners do not exercise their dogs enough.

Oh bad things happen on the show. He let two pitbulls fight (for ratings?) I have seen owners bit, dogs strangled, dogs so stressed they are foaming at the mouth (the dane and the slippery floor episode)

If he did these things to horses we would be horrified. Why is it ok to do to dogs. I mean even if it worked (cause it doesn't.. ) how can people watch this and think its good?

Sithly
Jan. 26, 2009, 11:49 PM
If he did these things to horses we would be horrified. Why is it ok to do to dogs. I mean even if it worked (cause it doesn't.. ) how can people watch this and think its good?

I don't own or train dogs, so take this with a grain of salt.

Personally, I like the guy for my own reasons. I don't think everyone has to like him or that he's god's gift to dog training. I like him because he is such an extreme counterpoint to the legions of IDIOTS who think they can love their dogs into submission. I can't freakin' stand that mentality. Spoiled animals (be they equine, canine, or homonid) grate on my nerves.

The only dog I have the misfortune of dealing with on a regular basis belongs to my mother-in-law. This dog is a spoiled-rotten little bastard to rival any of the ones on Ceasar's show -- or Victoria Stilwell's show, which I also watch.

This dog is awful. He is an unholy terror. However, I had to find a way to deal with him without starting a family feud, so I started using Caesar's techniques after trying and failing with positive reinforcement. (FYI, the positive techniques failed because it's hard to motivate a dog with food or praise when it constantly gets piles of same for free. My MIL is never changing her ways, and again, not worth fighting about it.)

I needed to find a way to walk in the door without getting bitten, and be present in the house without the dog yapping at me constantly. Family gatherings were a nightmare. Enter Ceasar Millan.

I started using some techniques from the show. They worked like a charm. I can now walk in the door unmolested and go anywhere in the house without the dog showing any aggression. I am the only person in the family who can get him to stop barking instantly with a subtle command. He will otherwise yap for hours, or until MIL feeds him a treat. :eek: I am also the only person who can take things away from the dog without him growling or snapping.

And, the topper, that rotten little dog loves me. *puke* :lol:

So yeah, for me, it was a success. I can honestly say that if it wasn't for Ceasar, I would have kicked that dog across the room and gotten disowned for my trouble. Instead, I learned some techniques that, while not exactly kind and fluffy, were certainly not cruel and worked great in my situation.





Just for the record, I tried positive reinforcement first and I really wanted it to work. I made a huge effort. Unfortunately, the dog has no interest in treats, and praise means nothing to him. He doesn't like to be touched so scratching didn't work. He has little to no prey drive, so toys and chase games didn't work. In short, he'd been spoiled to the point that there was nothing left to work with (that I could discern). And that program wasn't going to change.

I also tried exercise. MIL has bad knees and can't walk the dog, so I used to walk him for her. The dog always behaved impeccably on our walks, but as soon as we got back to the house, he turned back into a monster. I gave up when it became apparent that it wasn't helping.

The problem with those techniques is that they don't work unless everyone in the family is on board. The people who deal with the dog the most HAVE to follow the program, or the person who deals with the dog less frequently can't possibly succeed. You can't clicker train a dog who is stuffed with treats and completely sated before you even walk in the door.

The Caesar techniques, on the other hand, I can do on my own at any time. MIL's dog behaves when I'm around, which is all I care about. I no longer dread walking through the in-laws' door.

For what it's worth, Mr. Sithly and I have dogsat the little beast on more than one occasion, and he's a perfect angel when the in-laws aren't around.

EventingJ
Jan. 27, 2009, 09:57 AM
I like him. He takes a lot of problem/abused dogs and get them to a point where the owners can handle them again... not much different than a good 'cowboy' trainer dealing with a rogue/abused/problem horses - and I imagine if you watched some of their techniques you would say they were doing LOTS of things you SHOULDNT BE DOING (to a normal horse).

Somehow, I think a lot of the people who are against CM are the same type of people who tell me how bits are terrible things to use on horses and I should follow their lead in the bitless bridle, ect.

Aven
Jan. 27, 2009, 09:07 PM
I like him. He takes a lot of problem/abused dogs and get them to a point where the owners can handle them again... not much different than a good 'cowboy' trainer dealing with a rogue/abused/problem horses - and I imagine if you watched some of their techniques you would say they were doing LOTS of things you SHOULDNT BE DOING (to a normal horse).

Somehow, I think a lot of the people who are against CM are the same type of people who tell me how bits are terrible things to use on horses and I should follow their lead in the bitless bridle, ect.

Nope.. not me. I have all sorts of bits here. Ride with a dressage whip. Field hunt, expect manners in all my animals. There is a difference between effective punishment and abuse. And I don't assume my animals are all out to dominate me. I am an effective leader.. not a tyrant.

Did you read any of the links I provided?

AiryFairy
Jan. 28, 2009, 07:05 AM
I have been in dogs professionally as a breeder, trainer, & handler (although I've retired from heavy competition now) for probably 25-30 years & I couldn't have said it better myself. I know very few pros or serious amateur dog people who like Cesar--he seems (to me, anyway) to be kind of the Pat Parelli of the dog world. A lot of his methods were commonly in use years ago in "the bad old days", & have since been abandoned by thinking trainers (ie: I have never 'stung up' a dog, & I don't intend to). I will also say that my specialty was Sighthounds (Whippets, Irish Wolfhound, Scottish Deerhound, Greyhound, Borzoi) & most his techniques strike me as singularly un-useful for that type of dog. Very little gets done with them because you are 'dominant'--it they don't respect you & care what you think, it ain't happening! Plus, I can't stand his 'views' on women & why they make 'inferior' trainers. I did, however, laugh at the episode of South Park where Cartman's mom calls Cesar in to retrain her out-of-control son--I believe it's called "Tsst".

I too really like Victoria Stillwell http://www.victoriastillwell.com & recommend her whenever I'm asked.

I have sighthounds as well, and FWIW, his methods are more about just having the right attitude and being consistent - I am the boss, period, not to be questioned. I've been that way with all my animals, horses and dogs, and have never had a bad discipline issue. My hounds, aside from the prey drive, have been remarkably easy to live with. One arrived with a little dominance problem, trying to take over the house, growling at me if I tried to take a treat from her - that was solved with some firm correction and she's never done it since. Hounds can be stubborn and single minded but the can be taught to respect their human, I can't imagine having any other kind of dog.

The Cesar episode of South Park? My favorite EVER, hilarious.

EventingJ
Jan. 28, 2009, 09:15 AM
Nope.. not me. I have all sorts of bits here. Ride with a dressage whip. Field hunt, expect manners in all my animals. There is a difference between effective punishment and abuse. And I don't assume my animals are all out to dominate me. I am an effective leader.. not a tyrant.

Did you read any of the links I provided?

You know - its not worth it to argue with you :)
so ill just leave this:

Again, I suggest that you might have a problem with those "cowboy" type people that work with problem horses. Sometimes stuff doesnt look pretty when you have to undo damage people have done.

Sithly
Jan. 28, 2009, 09:24 AM
The Cesar episode of South Park? My favorite EVER, hilarious.

That was the BEST episode! Bwahahah. Definitely my favorite, too. :lol:

Aven
Jan. 28, 2009, 11:55 AM
You know - its not worth it to argue with you :)
so ill just leave this:

Again, I suggest that you might have a problem with those "cowboy" type people that work with problem horses. Sometimes stuff doesnt look pretty when you have to undo damage people have done.

No I don't. But I don't suggest that is where people start.

As a trainer I have clients come in because they have problems DUE to trying this stuff. IMO its a lot easier to fix a problem by curing the issue, not masking the symptom.

Ie dog growls. Fix the dogs issue.. don't just stop the growling. Most dogs who bite have been punished for growling. It didn't teach the dog that 'aggression' was bad. It just taught the dog to no longer warn before it bites.

I have worked with 'red zone' dogs. I have rehabbed dogs with some serious bite histories. One dog was totally fine till people started seeing all his 'bad behaviour' as dominance problems. No they just had a JRT they never bothered to train. So then they started trying to intimidate him (like CM) and punish him out of these behaviours. This dog bit multiple times, even mangling the fathers hand. He would guard the daughters bed so fiercely she was afraid to enter her room.

He came to me. He got boot camp. You can be quite harsh using non aggressive methods. This dog had to earn everything. He wanted to go out.. he had to sit, (thats all he knew in the beggining) He wanted to eat, to play etc. He had to work for it. No more privileges, no couch or beds.. crate. He was very aggressive to new people. Because he was punished for barking (then growling) when people came over. He had learned.. new people =bad things happen to me.

I had friends come over and ignore him (he was on leash) and drop treats everytime he came near. I never corrected him if he barked. Soon he relaxed around new people. He was still wary if they moved at him. So we worked on that.

This dog is now adopted. His issues weren't masked by having the symptoms suppressed. He learned people are not threats you need to protect yourself from. He learned great things happen from being obedient. He developed a relaxed demeanour as he had confidence again in humans.

I am not saying people should be permissive. I am not saying people should let their dogs get away with things (I train, live with, breed and compete with JRTs .... those little monsters can't be allowed to run the place) I am saying we are in control because of our brains. If you teach a dog you are in control cause you are a bigger meaner dog.. then what about children or the elderly? Dogs need to learn that they should respect all people. Cause we are smart and have thumbs.. lol.. not because we are meaner and scarier.

Just a note on me.. I love to compete. And I love to win. My house is almost wall to wall ribbons (well I am now making ribbon pillows as that uses up a lot of them) I started out using punitive methods. I slowly switched as the people with the best and most reliable dogs were no longer training that way. I switched cause it worked better, I got faster better results that lasted. I didn't switch cause of some "ohh lets just love the dog into good behaviour". You can be a VERY strict owner and be 99 P+

CM is great for people who want apparent results NOW. Its like the saying 'would you like it done RIGHT or right NOW?' He is good TV. But its all flash and entertainment. Some of what he says is good. But its no different from what any other trainers will say, and is nothing new.

threedogpack
Jan. 28, 2009, 09:27 PM
I thought PetsMart had gone to positive training?

Bluey
Jan. 28, 2009, 10:03 PM
I like him. He takes a lot of problem/abused dogs and get them to a point where the owners can handle them again... not much different than a good 'cowboy' trainer dealing with a rogue/abused/problem horses - and I imagine if you watched some of their techniques you would say they were doing LOTS of things you SHOULDNT BE DOING (to a normal horse).

Somehow, I think a lot of the people who are against CM are the same type of people who tell me how bits are terrible things to use on horses and I should follow their lead in the bitless bridle, ect.

On the contrary.
In the world of dog training and competing, he is seen as Parelli is in the world of real horse training and competing, the one telling people they can ride without a bit and bareback.:yes:
That is someone that doesn't really know what they are doing much of the time, has some ways to do some of what trainers do, but then takes those ideas into ways he understand as how things work but don't, really, when you know what you are after.

As someone said, he is 20 years behind in training theory, although he is trying to catch on, has changed some of what he does, as the Parelli group has been doing.

Some people got their business going before they knew all they needed to know about what they are doing.
Like a doctor that would want to be operating when he is only half thru medical school, just knows some, invents some more and is learning very fast, trying to catch up to what others in the field are doing.

He is an amateur trainer, with little previous experience, getting experience on the job, doing some good, muddling much.

As long as he doesn't has to train with a purpose, is just putting on a TV entertainment show, he does ok.

If he had to train a police or drug dog, obedience or agility competitor, or guide dog, he would just not have the tools to do that, something that most good dog trainers today have.

Some of what he does would get most owners that try that at home bitten.;)
In the horse world, we call that stealing a ride, when the horse is not being trained, but you got by doing what you were doing with that horse, by gosh and by golly.
The horse is still not trained.:D

Now, I only watched a few times for a little when he started his TV shows, then dismissed it, too much was bad training.
Don't know if he is better today.:confused:
Maybe he is, or a better showman, listening to all those glowing reports.:)

threedogpack
Jan. 28, 2009, 10:06 PM
To those critics, I would really like to see specific examples of dogs that should have been handled differently.


Look at the episode: Season 1, Ep 3: Ruby and Rana

Ruby was a Vizsla bitch who was nervous and possessively guarded objects. In this episode CM took several bites when he forced her to give up an object. This dog is (or was at the time) owned by a family with a young daughter and son. They watched this guy takes these bites. Ruby was terrified of him. Then, toward the end of the episode he forced this tremendously fearful dog into a swimming pool. Now....first of all, do I want my kids thinking that getting bitten is something that is part of dog training? Absolutely not. Second, what did the dog learn from this?

What I would have done differently is to first not set the dog up with something so important to her in the beginning. I'd have started waayyy far away from the end goal and worked on her trust first. I've had dogs like Ruby come to me. Fixing these problems isn't an hour long job. It often takes years and often these dogs only trust one or two people.

With a foster that had no fear issues but did have guarding issues I did this. I cooked up chicken, then shredded it. I tied him to a solid object and gave him a rawhide chew. I allowed him to get started on it then approached. He raised his head, hovered over the chew and gave me a hard, unblinking stare. I stopped, said nothing and didn't move. He went back to his rawhide and I took a few more steps closer. When he raised his head again, I tossed a piece of chicken next to him, then left. Approached again, tossed chicken, retreated. After 3 trials, he quit with the hard unblinking stare. At that point, I asked him to take the chicken from me, he did, then grabbed the rawhide again. I never attempted to take the rawhide until he didn't care anymore. In the course of an hour, I had him refuse to pick up the rawhide. He never attempted to bite me, the only aggression he showed was the hard unblinking stare (and that IS aggression).

there is no reason to provoke a dog to the point of biting you to prove anything.

threedogpack
Jan. 28, 2009, 10:09 PM
Horror stories? How many? I know of one, someone on his staff using a treadmill and a dog hung himself up with his choke collar. Cesar wasn't even there, and the person doing it shouldn't have left the dog alone - you can hardly claim Cesar abused the dog when he had nothing to do with it. You're being a bit melodramatic about "horror stories", methinks.


then I'm sure the Cleve Wells thing doesn't bother you either, right? After all, he had nothing to do with it. He wasn't even there and the person doing it shouldn't have done what they did.

threedogpack
Jan. 28, 2009, 10:16 PM
Somehow, I think a lot of the people who are against CM are the same type of people who tell me how bits are terrible things to use on horses and I should follow their lead in the bitless bridle, ect.

nope. Not me. Bits are useful. CM is not.

Dr. Doolittle
Jan. 28, 2009, 10:42 PM
I don't own or train dogs, so take this with a grain of salt.

Personally, I like the guy for my own reasons. I don't think everyone has to like him or that he's god's gift to dog training. I like him because he is such an extreme counterpoint to the legions of IDIOTS who think they can love their dogs into submission. I can't freakin' stand that mentality. Spoiled animals (be they equine, canine, or homonid) grate on my nerves.

The only dog I have the misfortune of dealing with on a regular basis belongs to my mother-in-law. This dog is a spoiled-rotten little bastard to rival any of the ones on Ceasar's show -- or Victoria Stilwell's show, which I also watch.

This dog is awful. He is an unholy terror. However, I had to find a way to deal with him without starting a family feud, so I started using Caesar's techniques after trying and failing with positive reinforcement. (FYI, the positive techniques failed because it's hard to motivate a dog with food or praise when it constantly gets piles of same for free. My MIL is never changing her ways, and again, not worth fighting about it.)

I needed to find a way to walk in the door without getting bitten, and be present in the house without the dog yapping at me constantly. Family gatherings were a nightmare. Enter Ceasar Millan.

I started using some techniques from the show. They worked like a charm. I can now walk in the door unmolested and go anywhere in the house without the dog showing any aggression. I am the only person in the family who can get him to stop barking instantly with a subtle command. He will otherwise yap for hours, or until MIL feeds him a treat. :eek: I am also the only person who can take things away from the dog without him growling or snapping.

And, the topper, that rotten little dog loves me. *puke* :lol:

So yeah, for me, it was a success. I can honestly say that if it wasn't for Ceasar, I would have kicked that dog across the room and gotten disowned for my trouble. Instead, I learned some techniques that, while not exactly kind and fluffy, were certainly not cruel and worked great in my situation.





Just for the record, I tried positive reinforcement first and I really wanted it to work. I made a huge effort. Unfortunately, the dog has no interest in treats, and praise means nothing to him. He doesn't like to be touched so scratching didn't work. He has little to no prey drive, so toys and chase games didn't work. In short, he'd been spoiled to the point that there was nothing left to work with (that I could discern). And that program wasn't going to change.

I also tried exercise. MIL has bad knees and can't walk the dog, so I used to walk him for her. The dog always behaved impeccably on our walks, but as soon as we got back to the house, he turned back into a monster. I gave up when it became apparent that it wasn't helping.

The problem with those techniques is that they don't work unless everyone in the family is on board. The people who deal with the dog the most HAVE to follow the program, or the person who deals with the dog less frequently can't possibly succeed. You can't clicker train a dog who is stuffed with treats and completely sated before you even walk in the door.

The Caesar techniques, on the other hand, I can do on my own at any time. MIL's dog behaves when I'm around, which is all I care about. I no longer dread walking through the in-laws' door.

For what it's worth, Mr. Sithly and I have dogsat the little beast on more than one occasion, and he's a perfect angel when the in-laws aren't around.

This is an example of how ANY effective training can be beneficial to dogs who have previous had NO training (or worse yet--complete spoiling :rolleyes:--WAY, WAY more prevalent than abuse, and also MUCH more likely to result in the dog being given up for adoption, which too often leads to their ultimate demise...)

Sithly, good for you for taking it upon yourself to train and influence this dog (with apparently no behavior boundaries of any kind), even if the goal was simply to make your interactions with him more pleasant.

It never ceases to amaze me to observe how universally true it is that dogs (AND horses) bond MOST strongly to those who assume the leadership position in their world, and who hold them to a "standard of behavior". As I tell my (mostly women) dog obedience students who think of their dogs as their "babies" ( and who don't want to "hurt their feelings by making them do things"): the MORE you get the dog to do for YOU, the more the dog will love you!! Horses too! It may sound counterintuitive to those who believe that spoiling is kinder and will prompt them to "love you more", but it's just how it is. ;)

And again--on balance, Cesar has saved WAY more dogs than he's killed. Or even "abused."

Dr. Doolittle
Jan. 28, 2009, 10:50 PM
I thought PetsMart had gone to positive training?


?? I work for PetsMart, and our obedience classes are totally based on positive training. :yes: Very much praise and treat based, and we emphasize "ignoring" the bad behavior if possible--or *withholding* positive reinforcement for bad behavior--which takes more time, but which works well in the long run.

I'm not aware that it's ever been any other way? :confused:

Which is not to say that we don't teach how to use "aversive techniques", or how to correct bad behavior appropriately. I correct dogs in my class when and if necessary, and teach students how to do it as well--in a TIMELY and effective way! It's NEVER cruel or harsh. "Interrupting and redirecting" undesirable behavior is the principle we teach. Dog (or horse) training consists of both positive *and* negative reinforcment, and it's impossible to train effectively (or shape behavior) without using both...

Paragon
Jan. 28, 2009, 11:04 PM
The show is interesting enough to watch, but generally, I don't latch onto CM's ideas and principles.

I am what I would call "an assertive dog handler." I worked at a boarding kennel and had to be, what with all manner of spoiled, hyperactive, potentially dangerous (generally due to idiocy and disobedience) dogs. I moved the dogs with purpose. Nevertheless, CM's techniques often rub me the wrong way. Just not a fan.

dalpal
Jan. 28, 2009, 11:08 PM
Horses and dogs seem to go together. I'm sure many of you have watched the "Dog Whisperer". Have you all made a similar connection to Cesar Millan's canine philosophy and horses? I am sure Cesar Millan could make a mint in the horse industry if he wanted to. I am probably not the only horse person to make the connection between his canine training and our equine training methods. Certainly, dogs are predators and horses are prey, but the training methods regarding the animal psyche are connected. The common theme lies in being aware of your surroundings and having the timing to be able to make a correction at the first signs of distraction and then LET GO! so that the animal has the chance to understand the correction. Being a "calm and asserive pack leader" has credibility in the equine world as well as the canine world. I could go on, but I am more interested in all of your thoughts.

Cesar grew up on a farm, so I have no doubt that he would be familiar with horses.

Calm assertive energy should be used with all animals, regardless of prey or predator, in my opinion. I tend to attract all the animals in my house....I can be sitting on the couch and I will always have at least a dog at my feet, a dog at my side, and a cat somewhere in between. My husband is sometimes frustrated that they all flock in my direction. :lol: BUT, he does not have the same patience as I do....I do feel like I have a relaxed, nonthreatening energy about it.....seems to work on all the animals....horses, dogs and cats.

dalpal
Jan. 28, 2009, 11:09 PM
Everytime I watch his show I see him using excessive force to "train." I personally don't believe that kicking a dog in the head repeatedly to get it's attention is necessary. Positive reinforcement goes a long way to train dogs and horses. Let the flaming begin...:D

I've yet to see a show where he "kicked a dog in the head?????" I've seen him, nudge a dog in the side when it was negatively focusing on something else....but yet to see a kick to the head. :confused:

dalpal
Jan. 28, 2009, 11:17 PM
Yes, Yes! Obviously you understand! I personally believe it is never right to kick your dog, there are better ways to get their attention. You can achieve the same results with positive reinforcement techniques and body language. For those of you who think Caesar isn't abusive, I encourage you to go to a live seminar and see him "take down" a dog.

I have heard negative things about Cesar Millian, and I know there have been lawsuits against him.

WITH THAT SAID....

1. So please tell me how you would get a dog to focus on you. I like the leg bump, I do use it, if my dog is focused on the dog across the street....all I'm doing is knocking him off balance enough that he forgets about the other dog. There is no kicking...the comment about head kicks is just a blatent fabrication

2. My dogs are pretty well behaved, we have a balanced pack of three here...so I really don't have any need to go watch a live seminar.....however, I've never seen anything horrendously ugly on the show. There are things that I wouldn't do..such as drag a dog up stairs or across a tile floor...BUT, there are things in the show that are nifty tools in my belt..the leg nudge is one of them.

And before anyone flames me...I did 2 years of dog training with my dogs....we went through obedience and agility classes and they have their CGC's. So no, I'm not an idiot sitting in front of the TV expecting to learn dog training 101 from the tube.

dalpal
Jan. 28, 2009, 11:23 PM
]For all the people defending his methods based solely on the tv show.....OF COURSE nothing bad happens in the show, its TELEVISION. The horror stories come from people who have used him as a trainer, and NOT been on the show. He is a trainer, he trains tons of dogs off the show. This is where the stories of abuse and such come from. No one is claiming they saw them on a tv show.[/B]

Though, I do appreciate him promoting spaying/neutering on tv. Good on him. Because apparently people now consider him the dog god, and at least he is doing the dog world this one giant favour. And he is really right, the people need most of the training, and the vast majority of owners do not exercise their dogs enough.

Yes, you are absolutely correct. But there are things on his TV show that are helpful. I have no plans to use Cesar as a personal dog trainer...don't need him. ;)

Did anyone see the idiot couple a couple weeks ago....they decided that they wanted a dog, and since they had exotic animals already and hubby loved wolves..that a hybrid would be the ticket (I'm not saying anything negatively about a hybrid....but these people really were better suited for something more like a pug, if you get my drift)...Oh, but wait, they had to get two. All I could think was...WHY, why do you have to have a wolf as your first act of dog ownership....if you like that look.....get a husky or malamute. Those stories drive me nuts.

dalpal
Jan. 28, 2009, 11:30 PM
Tell that to Cesar. He has shoved many a dog down with hand on throat on the show. These are people who live in the California area and did go to Cesar himself, not borrowed his tactics from the show.


Never saw him do that to a fearful dog...saw him put a few dominate ones on their backs. For alot of people, Cesar is a last resort. Try this or put the dog down. And I give him credit, he realizes that this is the end of the line for some of these dogs and he is their last chance. He can be tough on the ones who are dog aggressive, people aggressive. I am sure that there are some who aren't successful and do not make it to TV, but for the ones that do, he has saved some of them.

There are alot of fluff stories too.....there was one that had me cracking up last week....a bassett hound who wanted nothing to do with the man in the house...the title of the segment was "She's just not that into You" :lol:

dalpal
Jan. 28, 2009, 11:37 PM
No I don't. But I don't suggest that is where people start.

As a trainer I have clients come in because they have problems DUE to trying this stuff. IMO its a lot easier to fix a problem by curing the issue, not masking the symptom.

Ie dog growls. Fix the dogs issue.. don't just stop the growling. Most dogs who bite have been punished for growling. It didn't teach the dog that 'aggression' was bad. It just taught the dog to no longer warn before it bites.

I have worked with 'red zone' dogs. I have rehabbed dogs with some serious bite histories. One dog was totally fine till people started seeing all his 'bad behaviour' as dominance problems. No they just had a JRT they never bothered to train. So then they started trying to intimidate him (like CM) and punish him out of these behaviours. This dog bit multiple times, even mangling the fathers hand. He would guard the daughters bed so fiercely she was afraid to enter her room.

He came to me. He got boot camp. You can be quite harsh using non aggressive methods. This dog had to earn everything. He wanted to go out.. he had to sit, (thats all he knew in the beggining) He wanted to eat, to play etc. He had to work for it. No more privileges, no couch or beds.. crate. He was very aggressive to new people. Because he was punished for barking (then growling) when people came over. He had learned.. new people =bad things happen to me.

I had friends come over and ignore him (he was on leash) and drop treats everytime he came near. I never corrected him if he barked. Soon he relaxed around new people. He was still wary if they moved at him. So we worked on that.

This dog is now adopted. His issues weren't masked by having the symptoms suppressed. He learned people are not threats you need to protect yourself from. He learned great things happen from being obedient. He developed a relaxed demeanour as he had confidence again in humans.

I am not saying people should be permissive. I am not saying people should let their dogs get away with things (I train, live with, breed and compete with JRTs .... those little monsters can't be allowed to run the place) I am saying we are in control because of our brains. If you teach a dog you are in control cause you are a bigger meaner dog.. then what about children or the elderly? Dogs need to learn that they should respect all people. Cause we are smart and have thumbs.. lol.. not because we are meaner and scarier.

Just a note on me.. I love to compete. And I love to win. My house is almost wall to wall ribbons (well I am now making ribbon pillows as that uses up a lot of them) I started out using punitive methods. I slowly switched as the people with the best and most reliable dogs were no longer training that way. I switched cause it worked better, I got faster better results that lasted. I didn't switch cause of some "ohh lets just love the dog into good behaviour". You can be a VERY strict owner and be 99 P+

CM is great for people who want apparent results NOW. Its like the saying 'would you like it done RIGHT or right NOW?' He is good TV. But its all flash and entertainment. Some of what he says is good. But its no different from what any other trainers will say, and is nothing new.

I will agree with you on this one. I have a fear aggressive dog. And boy have I worked HARD with him. My vet commends me everytime she sees him. When we got him as a puppy, he would tuck his tail between his legs on walks, scared of everything.

We were fortuante enough to have an ex police dog trainer running most of our classes.....I was frustrated because so many people would roll their eyes at me or act offended if he growled at them (he is very claustrophobic)....he said to me..."Do not ever take the growl away from him, he is giving you warning that something is making him worry...punish him for that and he'll be left with the next step for protection."

Would I ever put this particular dog on the Dog Whisperer....HELL NO. Because I would be afraid that it could escalate into something bad, I admit that....we've often joked that he would flunk the dog whisperer. Am I afraid of my dog....absolutley not...but I do know his triggers and his limits and I do not set him up to fail....because of this, he trusts me completely and is a happy go lucky boy who is proud and confident now.

Bluey
Jan. 29, 2009, 07:46 AM
They are all kinds of horse training shows on TV any more and so are dog training shows.
Some are better than others and all have something we can learn from and other we wince, or even laugh.
Look at this dog expression, trying to use self control:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flCk4zuEF90

Those shows with CM are a little too much of the kind of training where, while using common sense, some of what he thinks works one way, we really know that it doesn't, as with the alpha roll, that most anyone today has heard it is a misunderstanding that happened 30 years ago while someone was doing wolf interaction studies.
In reality, further studies have shown, wolves don't roll anyone, the one being dominated rolls it'self over to show appeasement.
If there is any rolling, it is fighting, no matter how quickly it happened as to look like a domination maneuver.

When you up the ante with a dominant dog into a confrontation, like with a horse, you are already behind the ball with your training.
You should have been proactive and not find yourself in that situation.
That is some of what keeps happening with CM training, if on purpose to make things happening on the shows, or because he doesn't know better, I don't know.:no:

When watching any horse or dog training shows, don't get involved in the drama and keep a critical eye, so you can judge what is done and what the results are, how the trainer works and more important, how the animal respond and what it is telling us with it's body language.
That is where we can learn from all that, I think.

Aven
Jan. 29, 2009, 09:42 AM
Dogs are pack animals that respect the pack leader and horses are herd animals that respect the herd leader so we need to maintain the role with both animals in order to acheive our goals with them.


Dogs are not pack animals.

This is one of the biggest issues all the people that I listed have with him. Dogs are NOT pack animals. This has been shown over and over again. They are social.. YES, do they form cohesive packs NO.

So not only is he assuming all dogs see us as dogs (which they don't .. or all dog aggressive dogs would be human aggressive and vs versa) he is basing his whole training premise on faulty theories.

AND even if you do study wolf packs.. his interpretation is all wrong too LOL!

Seriously people.. watch the show with the sound off. Learn about canine stress postures.. then watch the show. There are reasons that no reputable behaviourist can stand what he does.

ANd as for the more exercise> Have you WATCHED how he wants the dogs walked? Head down or forward, no sniffing, no looking around. He chokes the dog if the dog takes any interest in their surroundings (you can see that on lots of episodes) So the dog must trudge along at a very slow pace (for a dog) and not get any stimulation out of it. I do think those kinds of walks work for his program.. because his whole methodology is about forcing the dogs into a state of learned helplessness. I will agree he is VERY good at doing that. (and if you don't know that term.. google is your friend)

Sithly
Jan. 29, 2009, 09:49 AM
Bluey -- love that video. :lol: That dog had a VERY expressive face. And this comment cracked me up (emphasis mine):
Haha, yeah, teaching a dog that something is bad is so "cruel." This is why people get the ASPCA and Child Services called on them- because people like you decide that they are going to let their pets/kids do whatever they want because they should have the freedom to express themselves and if you tell them what to do and what not to do, it's like putting a fence around their souls.
:lol::lol::lol:

I generally have little interest in dogs, but this conversation has been somewhat fascinating. It's interesting to hear the different POVs.

I'm a big believer in positive techniques. I've had great success clicker training my horse. I'd like to try it on a dog some day.

Bluey
Jan. 29, 2009, 10:03 AM
Bluey -- love that video. :lol: That dog had a VERY expressive face. And this comment cracked me up (emphasis mine):
:lol::lol::lol:

I generally have little interest in dogs, but this conversation has been somewhat fascinating. It's interesting to hear the different POVs.

I'm a big believer in positive techniques. I've had great success clicker training my horse. I'd like to try it on a dog some day.

There is not that much really to say about "positive", since it has to be considered that much we do is also by nature "negative".
The right understanding and balance is what wins the war.

Come over.:yes:
Our dog club is putting on a Sue Ailsby clicker training seminar next weekend.
She is one of the best at training dogs today.
Much of what we train, we use operant conditioning, where adequate, sometimes with a clicker, other situations just the theories, adapted to what we do.

Works great for dogs, horses and people too.;)
The trouble with really good, solid training where you don't only demand, but work to have the student participate is that you have to become extremely more limber mentally, to stay ahead of your student.
We call that type of training, be it with dogs or horses or any other, "letting the genie out of the bottle", because now the student will also demand that much more of the teacher.
The sad part is that most of us really don't have time for 24/7 interaction with others, be it dogs, horses or people, also need time to do other in our lives.

Nothing any more sad that having your horse standing by the fence, not wanting to go stay with the other horses, wishing you would come play with the clicker some more and you really only have so much time for him.:cry:

When training intensively in that manner, we need to remember to teach that there is a time for things, something we don't realize at first, since all are having such a ball with this kind of training.:yes:

threedogpack
Jan. 29, 2009, 11:38 AM
"Our dog club is putting on a Sue Ailsby clicker training seminar next weekend."

Sue is my hero. She is without a doubt one of the best trainers I have ever met. I met her wwaaayyyy back in the late 90's. She also has llamas and if you don't know the story of the male llama and the breeding shed...ask her to tell it at the seminar, it's hilarious and so clicker-y.

Bluey
Jan. 29, 2009, 05:08 PM
"Our dog club is putting on a Sue Ailsby clicker training seminar next weekend."

Sue is my hero. She is without a doubt one of the best trainers I have ever met. I met her wwaaayyyy back in the late 90's. She also has llamas and if you don't know the story of the male llama and the breeding shed...ask her to tell it at the seminar, it's hilarious and so clicker-y.

Will do, if we have a minute.:cool:
That ought to be some kind of story.;)

threedogpack
Jan. 29, 2009, 07:37 PM
it is, I'm smiling just thinking about it now. Enjoy your seminar....

AZ Native
Jan. 30, 2009, 04:52 PM
I'm currently reading CM's first book. He addresses many of the issues and concerns about what he does there. He clearly points out the reasons for the alpha role and why most should NOT use it. My 4 dogs, including a formerly red zone JRT, have greatly benifitted from using his methods. My dogs are all happy , affectionate and secure. I'm a big fan.Airy Fairy and Stihly, I particularly liked your posts.:)

Tom King
Jan. 30, 2009, 05:07 PM
We are fans of Cesar. Bumping a dog with your foot is not "kicking". We have a pack of 12 dogs that have a whole complex including part of our house-not including our outside farm dogs. I wonder if they realize that they don't live in a pack. They sure have a pack order and are a cohesive pack to us. They range in age from 4 months to 12 years, include two intact males, 3 retired and spayed females, and 7 intact females. It's no question, they are a pack.

I remember one episode where one of the problem dog owners was lunging a horse in a paddock while Cesar was working with her dog to teach it to stop charging in after the horses. He had his back to what the girl was doing and at one point stood up, turned around, and asked her "why did you do that". He was right. I'm sure he would have no problem with horses and hope that any supposed hookup with Parelli is not true.

I've never seen Cesar handle a dog on any of the shows that wasn't better off for it.

Lori
Jan. 30, 2009, 05:18 PM
Everytime I watch his show I see him using excessive force to "train." I personally don't believe that kicking a dog in the head repeatedly to get it's attention is necessary. Positive reinforcement goes a long way to train dogs and horses. Let the flaming begin...:D


Not a flame but until you have worked with hard dogs, you really have no idea.
Using the leg to tap like that is actually very effective and I had used it per my trainer years before Cesar became famous. I am 85 lbs soaking wet and worked dogs 2x or more my size with no problems.
Cesar works some very hard cases. I watched my old trainer work harder cases than Cesar works on TV. Some of these dogs can be dangerous if not corrected firmly. That is just the reality. Halti collars and clickers just are not enough.
You have to actually see this in person on a real dangerous dog in a real situation......

Bluey, dogs do roll each other, a mom does this to the pups when they are out of line and I watched adults do it to each other, too. Depends on the situation....

There is no one size fits all in any form of training.....

NRB
Jan. 30, 2009, 09:12 PM
That is some of what keeps happening with CM training, if on purpose to make things happening on the shows, or because he doesn't know better, I don't know.:no:

I do agree with Bluey that you should always be objective when viewing any new techniques. I was a huge CM skeptic for a long long time. Until I was able to see for myself that some of his philosophies and techniques really do work, and helped me with one of my dogs.

But I want to point out that CM says over and over and over again. that he is NOT a dog Trainer, and that you, the viewer should always consult with a professional (vet and trainer) about your dogs behavior. Whenever the dog on the show needs training he brings in a professional trainer.

And if you read his material he breaks the walk down into segments, where he recomends that you allow time for the dog to sniff around and be a doggie, then go back intot he walk.

And I have to disagree with the person who posted that dogs don't pack up. We lost a cat in our front yard to three dogs running as a pack that killed the cat instantly. I've also run into dog packs out on trails. They definitely had a group dynamic.

I've started to read Karen Pryor's book, "Don't Shoot the Dog; The new Art of Teaching and Training" I'm only 30 pages into the book, but I've noticed that the authors homesite is www.clickertraining.com Great book. really like it alot!

Bluey
Jan. 30, 2009, 09:48 PM
Alpha Roll is not new, it is very old and a Myth:

http://www.4pawsu.com/leaderadv.htm

http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/Bouvier/Training/alpha-roll_no.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_roll

http://watchandtrain.com/dogtraining/blogs/thoughts/archive/2008/03/10/alpha-roll-one-mistake-when-working-with-aggressive-dogs.aspx

threedogpack
Jan. 30, 2009, 10:27 PM
I do agree with Bluey that you should always be objective when viewing any new techniques. I was a huge CM skeptic for a long long time. Until I was able to see for myself that some of his philosophies and techniques really do work, and helped me with one of my dogs.

But I want to point out that CM says over and over and over again. that he is NOT a dog Trainer, and that you, the viewer should always consult with a professional (vet and trainer) about your dogs behavior. Whenever the dog on the show needs training he brings in a professional trainer.

And if you read his material he breaks the walk down into segments, where he recomends that you allow time for the dog to sniff around and be a doggie, then go back intot he walk.

And I have to disagree with the person who posted that dogs don't pack up. We lost a cat in our front yard to three dogs running as a pack that killed the cat instantly. I've also run into dog packs out on trails. They definitely had a group dynamic.

I've started to read Karen Pryor's book, "Don't Shoot the Dog; The new Art of Teaching and Training" I'm only 30 pages into the book, but I've noticed that the authors homesite is www.clickertraining.com Great book. really like it alot!

I thought CM was a professional. I thought that was why people watched his show, to learn how to do what he does.

What you witnessed with the cat was frenzy, not the pack mentality the other poster was referring to. What the other poster was referring to was that the group is not cohesive, the cat attack was not cohesive, these dogs probably went their own way after killing the cat. The cohesive pack stays together to socialize, hunt and breed. Dogs don't do that.

dalpal
Jan. 30, 2009, 11:36 PM
I thought CM was a professional. I thought that was why people watched his show, to learn how to do what he does.

What you witnessed with the cat was frenzy, not the pack mentality the other poster was referring to. What the other poster was referring to was that the group is not cohesive, the cat attack was not cohesive, these dogs probably went their own way after killing the cat. The cohesive pack stays together to socialize, hunt and breed. Dogs don't do that.

Interesting, tell that to my three dogs. We go out every AM and they track together, they socialize together, if they weren't fixed, I'm sure they would breed together....matter of fact, they are all sleeping together right now...by your "cohesive pack" definition, my qualify to be a pack of dogs.

Aven
Jan. 30, 2009, 11:47 PM
Interesting, tell that to my three dogs. We go out every AM and they track together, they socialize together, if they weren't fixed, I'm sure they would breed together....matter of fact, they are all sleeping together right now...by your "cohesive pack" definition, my qualify to be a pack of dogs.

Horses are herd animals.. dogs are not pack animals. Yes your dog will socialize together. And yes would breed. BUT they would also breed with any other dog who came around. They would hang out with other dogs who came around. (assuming they were well socialized)

Studies on Pariah dogs have shown that dogs will form loose social bonds. That means they will hang with some dogs on one day, and others on other days.. and scavange alone when times are tough. They don't form stable cohesive packs. This is why pack theory is so silly to apply to dogs. It doesn't.. but it does make for good TV.

Horses are group creatures. They form stable and cohesive groups. They tend not to let others in easily and tend to breed within their own group.

dalpal
Jan. 31, 2009, 07:22 AM
I thought CM was a professional. I thought that was why people watched his show, to learn how to do what he does.

What you witnessed with the cat was frenzy, not the pack mentality the other poster was referring to. What the other poster was referring to was that the group is not cohesive, the cat attack was not cohesive, these dogs probably went their own way after killing the cat. The cohesive pack stays together to socialize, hunt and breed. Dogs don't do that.

LOL, I just noticed your user name. :lol:

erinwillow
Jan. 31, 2009, 09:13 AM
I'm in love with Cesar's straight , white teeth :winkgrin: oh, and his "pack leader" thing. . . herd leader, pack leader, boss mare. . all the same thing, good sense really.

threedogpack
Jan. 31, 2009, 11:03 AM
LOL, I just noticed your user name


it's not quite accurate anymore...I'm up to 7 at the moment.

threedogpack
Jan. 31, 2009, 11:04 AM
Studies on Pariah dogs have shown that dogs will form loose social bonds. That means they will hang with some dogs on one day, and others on other days.. and scavange alone when times are tough. They don't form stable cohesive packs. This is why pack theory is so silly to apply to dogs. It doesn't.. but it does make for good TV.


a better way to describe it than mine....

Aven
Jan. 31, 2009, 12:15 PM
I'm in love with Cesar's straight , white teeth :winkgrin: oh, and his "pack leader" thing. . . herd leader, pack leader, boss mare. . all the same thing, good sense really.

LOL he is kinda sexy :D But its only common sense if you are a human. Not so much if you are a dog. Dog's aren't wired to follow a pack leader, so its not really that useful. Training is VERY useful though.

Look at it this way.. if you got a horse who had never been taught to lead and it wandered all over the place.. would you say the horse is trying to 'dominate' you? Or would you say the horse needs to be trained to lead? CM's ideology pits you in a battle against your dog. A dog who jumps on people or on the couch or barks.. isnt' trying to be dominant-its just being a dog. Its not the dog (or horse's) fault if no one has trained them. Puppies actually jump up on adults to get closer to their faces. A dog jumping on you is more likely acting 'submissive' is we must label it one or the other- but Mr Milan is sure that means the dog is trying to usurp your place :rolleyes:

Lori
Jan. 31, 2009, 12:41 PM
Alpha roll is not a myth, used correctly it works.
I am not talking of initiating, I have only used it when a pup has challenged me FIRST.
It works.....

Tom King
Jan. 31, 2009, 03:41 PM
Between 8 and 12 weeks our puppies spend a fair amount of time with the pack. Any of the adults will pin a pup when it gets too rambunctious. There's nothing mean or hurtful in it. They are just teaching it manners. We feel this is an important part of a pup's upbringing. I can see where if a pup, say from living in a puppy mill, who never gets this sort of correction-as is always given by it's mother if she has access to it-would not understand being submissive.

I've never seen Cesar pin a dog that it didn't benefit the dog's training. I've never seen anything on any of the shows that is in any way mean. It's different if you are training a dog from the start and retraining one who is dangerous.

Our pack has an order from the Alpha to the Omega. They are a very balanced pack. I don't care if our pack doesn't meet someone elses definition of a pack.

Theories are great to get people thinking, but they are no replacement for experience.

Of course the shows are edited but I've seen enough to form an opinion based on my 58 years spent with dogs. I've never seen Cesar make a mistake and think he has more dog sense than any number of theoriticians that have never retrained a dangerous dog and would probably be afraid to approach one.

threedogpack
Jan. 31, 2009, 04:54 PM
I've never seen Cesar make a mistake and think he has more dog sense than any number of theoriticians that have never retrained a dangerous dog

wow. A dog trainer that has never made a mistake. Blink. Wow again. Take a look at the episode I posted previously about Ruby the Viszla. If a trainer gets bitten, s/he has made a mistake and Ruby nailed him several times, puncture wounds too.

Bluey
Jan. 31, 2009, 05:10 PM
Between 8 and 12 weeks our puppies spend a fair amount of time with the pack. Any of the adults will pin a pup when it gets too rambunctious. There's nothing mean or hurtful in it. They are just teaching it manners. We feel this is an important part of a pup's upbringing. I can see where if a pup, say from living in a puppy mill, who never gets this sort of correction-as is always given by it's mother if she has access to it-would not understand being submissive.

I've never seen Cesar pin a dog that it didn't benefit the dog's training. I've never seen anything on any of the shows that is in any way mean. It's different if you are training a dog from the start and retraining one who is dangerous.

Our pack has an order from the Alpha to the Omega. They are a very balanced pack. I don't care if our pack doesn't meet someone elses definition of a pack.

Theories are great to get people thinking, but they are no replacement for experience.

Of course the shows are edited but I've seen enough to form an opinion based on my 58 years spent with dogs. I've never seen Cesar make a mistake and think he has more dog sense than any number of theoriticians that have never retrained a dangerous dog and would probably be afraid to approach one.

One question, do you train dogs, or are you someone that owns a few thru their lifetimes?

There is a difference between someone that trains dogs as they come thru the door, as we do in our dog club classes to the public, seeing many dogs and adjusting continuously to each one and their idiosincrasies, with training a few dogs you own in a lifetime.
A BIG difference.

CM does much well and also, not having started as a dog trainer or worked under one, does some at times that is not in the best interest of the dog or himself, that if he had trained dogs professionally under a good trainer he would not do.

If you have not been in that situation, just looking at a show, you really can't tell what is good training and where he is dropping the ball.
Just as I would be if I were to try to guess who will win a saddlebred class, even if I am a horse trainer, when I have only seen a few in my lifetime.

I think that he got famous before he was very good at training and it will take long time to make up with that slow start, although for what some describe, he is getting better.:yes:

Tom King
Jan. 31, 2009, 06:22 PM
My father raised and trained English Setters and Beagles for hunting in my early years. There are pictures of me when I first learned to walk in a pack of the dogs. They were with us most of my early childhood. Both a dog and cat slept on my bed until I graduated high school. My best friends in my preteen years were my dog and pony that met me when the school bus got home.

For a couple of decades my wife and I rescued, retrained, and found homes for horses and dogs. All our farm dogs have been rescues. We've had our farm for 29 years and I don't have any idea about the number of dogs that have come through here.

When our daughter was 8 she talked us into getting a dog that could stay in the house that we could have a litter of puppies with. Pam, my wife, told her that if she could find a breed of dogs that the world needed more of, thinking that would be the end of it, that we would try it. But if they ever produced any health problems that we would pay for the treatment or take them back.

Fast forward almost 14 years and we have raised 5 generations with our foundation bitch on the bottom line of every pedigree. We still offer the guarantee but have not had one single puppy get any congenital health problem.

Yes, we train dogs. Horses too. Coming from horses we've had an advantage of understanding conformation. We don't show for ego but do show our dogs just because it's one of the things responsible breeders should do who are breeding purebred dogs. Pam taught AKC Judges Education on our breed for seven years when the parent club had the requirement that no one teaching the seminars could be campaigning a dog. We never specialed a dog, used a professional handler, or bought an advertisement but have 12 champions shown in shows within 2 hours of here against the same dogs and handlers you see on tv.

Our training now mostly is just potty training puppies before they leave here to go to their new homes. They leave between 10 and 12 weeks. Over those weeks between 10 and 12 because we train them individually to sleep in crates before their owners come from all over the country to get them and the new owners are required to spend time with us too.

We have retired from retraining problem dogs but do a LOT of volunteer work with local rescues and participate in all sorts of health testing. Our pack is considered the control pack for some of health tests in major Universities because we have 5 healthy generations on site and word has gotten around.

Yes we train dogs. I have never seen Cesar make a mistake that was detrimental to any dog on his show. I thought the "should I panic?" was pretty funny when he got nipped.

Here's our website. www.starbornhavanasilkdogs.com (http://www.starbornhavanasilkdogs.com) It needs a lot of work but we have waiting lists for puppies so there's not a lot of motivation. All the puppies are spoken for. I know the kennel name is a dumb name but it's what our daughter came up with when she was 8. I said it would never amount to anything anyway. And if you think we are in it for the money consider that we average three litters a year and our farm is only for our own use and is 178 acres with a 1/4 mile of waterfront on Lake Gaston and 3/8 mile of commercial property on the top of the hill on River Road growing pine trees on the other end.

I'll walk up to any guard dog or junkyard dog and have it wagging it's tail in a few seconds. Will you?

I'm a big fan of Cesar's. Anyone who says he doesn't know what he's doing doesn't understand dogs.

Bluey
Jan. 31, 2009, 06:27 PM
---"I'm a big fan of Cesar's. Anyone who says he doesn't know what he's doing doesn't understand dogs. "---

I guess that we will have to agree to disagree then.:)

hitchinmygetalong
Jan. 31, 2009, 06:33 PM
I think that he got famous before he was very good at training and it will take long time to make up with that slow start, although for what some describe, he is getting better.:yes:

I thought CM "rehabilitates dogs and trains people"? I have never heard him describe himself as a dog trainer. Never. In fact, on one show I heard him say, "I'm not a dog trainer."

elctrnc
Jan. 31, 2009, 06:42 PM
I'll walk up to any guard dog or junkyard dog and have it wagging it's tail in a few seconds. Will you?

I bet quite a few people would....and I bet each one would have a different method of doing so. :)


I'm a big fan of Cesar's. Anyone who says he doesn't know what he's doing doesn't understand dogs.

It's not that I think he "doesn't know what he's doing," it's that I think that there are other ways to achieve the same end...most of which don't involve choke collars, treadmills, and weighting a dog down to go for a walk. That doesn't mean that I don't "understand dogs," it means that we don't have the same training methods. :)

AZ Native
Jan. 31, 2009, 06:57 PM
My father raised and trained English Setters and Beagles for hunting in my early years. There are pictures of me when I first learned to walk in a pack of the dogs. They were with us most of my early childhood. Both a dog and cat slept on my bed until I graduated high school. My best friends in my preteen years were my dog and pony that met me when the school bus got home.

For a couple of decades my wife and I rescued, retrained, and found homes for horses and dogs. All our farm dogs have been rescues. We've had our farm for 29 years and I don't have any idea about the number of dogs that have come through here.

When our daughter was 8 she talked us into getting a dog that could stay in the house that we could have a litter of puppies with. Pam, my wife, told her that if she could find a breed of dogs that the world needed more of, thinking that would be the end of it, that we would try it. But if they ever produced any health problems that we would pay for the treatment or take them back.

Fast forward almost 14 years and we have raised 5 generations with our foundation bitch on the bottom line of every pedigree. We still offer the guarantee but have not had one single puppy get any congenital health problem.

Yes, we train dogs. Horses too. Coming from horses we've had an advantage of understanding conformation. We don't show for ego but do show our dogs just because it's one of the things responsible breeders should do who are breeding purebred dogs. Pam taught AKC Judges Education on our breed for seven years when the parent club had the requirement that no one teaching the seminars could be campaigning a dog. We never specialed a dog, used a professional handler, or bought an advertisement but have 12 champions shown in shows within 2 hours of here against the same dogs and handlers you see on tv.

Our training now mostly is just potty training puppies before they leave here to go to their new homes. They leave between 10 and 12 weeks. Over those weeks between 10 and 12 because we train them individually to sleep in crates before their owners come from all over the country to get them and the new owners are required to spend time with us too.

We have retired from retraining problem dogs but do a LOT of volunteer work with local rescues and participate in all sorts of health testing. Our pack is considered the control pack for some of health tests in major Universities because we have 5 healthy generations on site and word has gotten around.

Yes we train dogs. I have never seen Cesar make a mistake that was detrimental to any dog on his show. I thought the "should I panic?" was pretty funny when he got nipped.

Here's our website. www.starbornhavanasilkdogs.com (http://www.starbornhavanasilkdogs.com) It needs a lot of work but we have waiting lists for puppies so there's not a lot of motivation. All the puppies are spoken for. I know the kennel name is a dumb name but it's what our daughter came up with when she was 8. I said it would never amount to anything anyway. And if you think we are in it for the money consider that we average three litters a year and our farm is only for our own use and is 178 acres with a 1/4 mile of waterfront on Lake Gaston and 3/8 mile of commercial property on the top of the hill on River Road growing pine trees on the other end.

I'll walk up to any guard dog or junkyard dog and have it wagging it's tail in a few seconds. Will you?

I'm a big fan of Cesar's. Anyone who says he doesn't know what he's doing doesn't understand dogs.

Thanks Tom ! Wonderful post and very cool story. :cool:

JanM
Jan. 31, 2009, 06:57 PM
You have to remember the fact that agree (and I do) or disagree a lot of owners that take dogs to Cesar or any other nationally known trainer are ready to put the dog down because of issues, or are virtual prisoners of the dog (Vinnie the Shepherd with the odd owners who hadn't had a visitors in their homes in years) and are at the end of their ropes. If you get the episode guide to the first three seasons you will see that the people who do exercise, discipline and other prescribed methods properly do well with the dogs, but many people 'rehomed' the dog because they were not willing to do the work involved. (Personally I suspect many 'rehomings' mean dumped on a rescue or shelter or put down). And Cesar is willing to take many unsuitable dogs and trade for another dog that suits the family lifestyle and personalities better-and then works with the dog and finds it a home that will deal with the dog properly; some dogs aren't meant for some people. I still remember the hurt in Cesar's eyes and voice when he discovered that the lady who had two Miniature Pinschers that he worked with and the owner almost immediately had the more problematic dog (Victoria) put down instead of try any other solution-I really think in that case that the owner didn't want to be bothered with the dog and took disobedience as a personal rejection and retaliated (I hope I never run into the owner and realize who she is).

The putting a pack on the dogs is because the dogs need more exercise and are from breeds that need 'jobs' to be happy. And he has said before that he's not a fan of prong or other choke type collars but he uses what the owner have used before and intend to go on using, and he prefers his own type of collar.

And Dodson or Dodman from Tufts is a firm believer in psychotropic drugs for dogs, and had a former owner he worked with ignore his warnings and lost a baby to the dog's attack (warning-there's a very graphic chapter about this in one of his books)--I don't blame him and I don't blame any other expert (such as Cesar) when an owner refuses to go along with a training and supervision program or refuses to be realistic about the potential danger that certain animals pose.

I couldn't believe the idiots with the wolf-hybrids a couple of weeks ago on Cesar's show--according to LA county ordinances if the dogs bite anyone they must be put down, and processed for rabies testing because there is no reliable rabies vaccine for wolves or crosses, and I'm sure the local animal control people have dropped in to talk to them after the show aired, and their insurance agent probably sent them a cancellation notice. If any kind of incident happens with outsiders I'm sure the owners will be sued into total poverty, and probably deserve it.

dalpal
Jan. 31, 2009, 07:44 PM
I've never seen Cesar make a mistake and think he has more dog sense than any number of theoriticians that have never retrained a dangerous dog

wow. A dog trainer that has never made a mistake. Blink. Wow again. Take a look at the episode I posted previously about Ruby the Viszla. If a trainer gets bitten, s/he has made a mistake and Ruby nailed him several times, puncture wounds too.

You know, everything is subjective....just because YOU wouldn't do something a certain way, does not necessarily mean other ways are wrong...they are just different. I went to dog training at Teamworks here in Raleigh. During the two years I was there, I had at least four different trainers, teaching different classes......ALL of them had their own distinct way of going about things. I really preferred the retired police dog trainer, I would sign up for as many classes with him that I could. But just because trainer B. might have had a different approach didn't make them a bad trainer....just different.

There are fluff stories on the show, but alot of them are HARD CORE, "RED ZONE" cases...dogs who will bite and are dangerous.......how many times have people commented on the show..."We tried this trainer and they quit or they told us to put the dog down." So these people go to Cesar as a last resort to save the dog. I don't think it's shocking that he has been bitten.....what is good is that he doesn't get emotional about it, just keeps working with the dog. I doubt VERY seriously that anyone on this thread has ever dealt with serious red zone cases.

dalpal
Jan. 31, 2009, 07:46 PM
LOL, I just noticed your user name


it's not quite accurate anymore...I'm up to 7 at the moment.

That wasn't my point....you are arguing that dogs aren't pack animals, but yet you call yours a pack in your user name. :confused:

Dr. Doolittle
Jan. 31, 2009, 09:25 PM
You know, everything is subjective....just because YOU wouldn't do something a certain way, does not necessarily mean other ways are wrong...they are just different. I went to dog training at Teamworks here in Raleigh. During the two years I was there, I had at least four different trainers, teaching different classes......ALL of them had their own distinct way of going about things. I really preferred the retired police dog trainer, I would sign up for as many classes with him that I could. But just because trainer B. might have had a different approach didn't make them a bad trainer....just different.

There are fluff stories on the show, but alot of them are HARD CORE, "RED ZONE" cases...dogs who will bite and are dangerous.......how many times have people commented on the show..."We tried this trainer and they quit or they told us to put the dog down." So these people go to Cesar as a last resort to save the dog. I don't think it's shocking that he has been bitten.....what is good is that he doesn't get emotional about it, just keeps working with the dog. I doubt VERY seriously that anyone on this thread has ever dealt with serious red zone cases.

Touche', dalpal :yes:

And Tom--*great* post!!

threedogpack
Jan. 31, 2009, 11:50 PM
I doubt VERY seriously that anyone on this thread has ever dealt with serious red zone cases.


I have and I euthed two of them.

threedogpack
Jan. 31, 2009, 11:51 PM
it's just and ID, it means nothing about how I believe.

Bluey
Feb. 1, 2009, 08:49 AM
I doubt VERY seriously that anyone on this thread has ever dealt with serious red zone cases.


I have and I euthed two of them.

Many, many years ago we used to, take them to the side of the dog class and work with them there, as they were too dangerous to keep with the class, until the owner had some control over them.
I worked with plenty of those.
One of the worst I remember when we were accepting any dog was a malamute, not a breed we generally think would have a hair trigger temper and be set off with little warning.

By the end of the ten week lessons the owner had done an excellent job and the dog was able to approach and be approached and stayed in control of himself and paying attention to his owner.
With many owners, all you need to do is to explain the concepts of how to communicate, so the dog does what we want and not what we don't want it to do, in a way the dog understands and then work on that.

After the world kept changing and insurance became more stringent in what you could do or not, we started assessing such dogs and the worst of them were send on to a private dog trainer that worked with very aggressive dogs first, before they were accepted in the regular classes.

Living with a dog is not about dominance.
CM trains dogs with mostly a dominance set of mind, with the excuse that he trains aggressive dogs.
Well, that is one way to train, as long as you don't have to go home with that dog and live with it all day, day after day.;)
You may say the difference is to live in boot camp with a tough sargent over you 24/7 or amongst friends, where all cooperate, even if one is the boss and his word is final, "the one to be obeyed".
There are some dog training programs based around that, called NILIF, nothing in life is free where, as you control the dog's resources, you automatically become "the one to be obeyed", without having to fight it thru.

Some people like to be their dog's sergeant, but I would not try to live a whole life with my dogs like that.
Epic fights may make for good TV shows, maybe, but the owners have to go home after that and live with those dogs he dominates and, well, the owners now still don't have other than the concepts to dominate, they don't have "the rest of the story", because CM didn't either, unless he is better now than when I last saw any of his shows, a while back.

lauriep
Feb. 1, 2009, 02:27 PM
Well, I have been a dog trainer for MANY years, and have had both dogs and horses since childhood. And I completely support Cesar's methods. He is never called in for a dog that is in a good situation with knowledgeable dog people who know how to interact. He is called for weak owners that have lost any control of their situation. His biggest challenge is not the dog, but the PEOPLE. And he is very good at it.

You people who think a choke collar, used correctly, is cruel probably also object to a chain over a horse's nose. Well, good on ya. Do what you believe in. But because someone else believes otherwise, as I do, doesn't make you right and me wrong. Just different.

The backpacks he uses aren't to "weigh the dog down" they are to get more bang for the buck out of the exercise! A walk doesn't have to be as long or as brisk if the dog is carrying a pack. And what the hell is wrong with that?

His methods make perfect sense. Their IS an aura of authority that animals respond to with good animal people. And they immediately sense weakness and take advantage of it. I have NEVER seen him do anything cruel or untoward. I would call him in a NY minute if I had a problem. And he loves his animals, but for the animals they are, which he respects.

elctrnc
Feb. 1, 2009, 02:52 PM
The backpacks he uses aren't to "weigh the dog down" they are to get more bang for the buck out of the exercise! A walk doesn't have to be as long or as brisk if the dog is carrying a pack. And what the hell is wrong with that?

What the "hell is wrong with that"? Well, for one thing, it's not training the dog. It's not the "let's watch Cesar so we can get exercise tips for our pooch" show....or am I missing something?

If people just want an exercise routine, then they should go for a run with the dog. The PROBLEM is that they can't go for a run because they *haven't trained the dog to walk on a leash*! They don't need "more bang for their buck out of the exercise." :rolleyes: Cesar was most certainly weighing down the dog in the episode that I watched so that the dog couldn't pull as easily with the added weight. Fine, put weights on the dog. Put the dog on a treadmill. Choke the crap out of the dog with a prong collar. I don't care. But for god's sake, teach the people how to teach their dog to walk on the leash without the weight and without Cesar standing by their side! Because once that weight is off, that dog is going to be even stronger and pull even harder.

pAin't_Misbehavin'
Feb. 1, 2009, 05:18 PM
Cesar uses the same methods to train dogs that I was taught in handling classes in the 70's - back before we knew that the "alpha roll" was based on flawed science (and a real good way to get your nose bitten off:lol:) He's just re-packaged all that dominance hooey that most of us thought better of by about 1985. I guess that was long enough ago that it's come back into fashion. Like poncho's.:winkgrin:

He's right up there with Parelli, in my book. All sizzle no steak.

Bluey
Feb. 1, 2009, 05:40 PM
Cesar uses the same methods to train dogs that I was taught in handling classes in the 70's - back before we knew that the "alpha roll" was based on flawed science (and a real good way to get your nose bitten off:lol:) He's just re-packaged all that dominance hooey that most of us thought better of by about 1985. I guess that was long enough ago that it's come back into fashion. Like poncho's.:winkgrin:

He's right up there with Parelli, in my book. All sizzle no steak.

Except that, for what some are saying, he ads weighing a dog down so he learns better to heel because he will have a job and be tired?:eek:

I don't remember that little bit anywhere, in fact, have not heard that one until I read about it here.:confused:
Then, I don't have any trouble, or know of any dog trainer that would, teaching any dog to heel and not pull on the leash passably, in a few minutes, just with a leash, a flat collar and no jerking.;)
It is all about foot work and timing, so the dog is learning.:)
Now, it is harder to teach a beginner dog owner to do that proficiently.:yes:

RubyLink
Feb. 1, 2009, 06:42 PM
Whenever I watch the show and he puts the pack on a dog, he always said he was doing it to give the dog a job.

I enjoy his show and the fact that he always lets the owners know when the dogs problems were caused by them. Just like with anything, you take what you like and discard what you don't.

lauriep
Feb. 1, 2009, 08:50 PM
What the "hell is wrong with that"? Well, for one thing, it's not training the dog. It's not the "let's watch Cesar so we can get exercise tips for our pooch" show....or am I missing something?

If people just want an exercise routine, then they should go for a run with the dog. The PROBLEM is that they can't go for a run because they *haven't trained the dog to walk on a leash*! They don't need "more bang for their buck out of the exercise." :rolleyes: Cesar was most certainly weighing down the dog in the episode that I watched so that the dog couldn't pull as easily with the added weight. Fine, put weights on the dog. Put the dog on a treadmill. Choke the crap out of the dog with a prong collar. I don't care. But for god's sake, teach the people how to teach their dog to walk on the leash without the weight and without Cesar standing by their side! Because once that weight is off, that dog is going to be even stronger and pull even harder.

YOu can roll your eyes all you want. If you would LISTEN to what he says, the exercise comes BEFORE the training. He wants the tough dogs tired enough to be able to teach the owners, which he does. Most of these people are incredibly uncoordinated with their dogs. They need all the help they can get to do what he tries to show them. A dog that is tired will be more cooperative. How difficult is that for you to understand? Most of these dogs get zero exercise. Where would you prefer that energy to go? We aren't talking about people who are GOOD with dogs, or there wouldn't be a problem to begin with. His methods work, the dogs aren't damaged and in the cases where the owners follow up with their homework, the dog usually maintains his new behavior.

A run isn't the only way to exercise a dog, or a person. A long walk, carrying a pack or not, is good exercise and if done correctly, also reinforces the hierarchy.

Dr. Doolittle
Feb. 1, 2009, 09:40 PM
YOu can roll your eyes all you want. If you would LISTEN to what he says, the exercise comes BEFORE the training. He wants the tough dogs tired enough to be able to teach the owners, which he does. Most of these people are incredibly uncoordinated with their dogs. They need all the help they can get to do what he tries to show them. A dog that is tired will be more cooperative. How difficult is that for you to understand? Most of these dogs get zero exercise. Where would you prefer that energy to go? We aren't talking about people who are GOOD with dogs, or there wouldn't be a problem to begin with. His methods work, the dogs aren't damaged and in the cases where the owners follow up with their homework, the dog usually maintains his new behavior.

A run isn't the only way to exercise a dog, or a person. A long walk, carrying a pack or not, is good exercise and if done correctly, also reinforces the hierarchy.


:yes:

I can give you two examples: one, a student of mine who groomed/helped me extensively last year at several Horse Trials--an all day affair each time. She owns a VERY high energy boxer bitch (is there any other kind? ;)), who is also dominant--and who NEEDS both to have a job, and get a LOT of exercise; the woman is question is a *very* good dog handler, and keeps the dog in check, respectable, and obedient to commands and authority. This is NOT a suitable dog for mealy-mouthed dog coddler types, and she NEEDS to be owned and handled by someone who knows what they are doing...This woman puts a vest on the dog, and has her carry our water bottles in the vest (plus assorted lighter stuff) at the HTs. It's a LOT of walking, but this dog *loves* having a job, and carries her pack with pride. Plus, she is good and tired at the end of the day, and very content and pleased with herself. I can't imagine how much "walking and running" this dog would need to accomplish this kind of "good workout" otherwise...

The other example is a husband/wife pair in one of my dog classes that started a few weeks ago. The are in their 60's; the woman is sedentary, overweight and arthritic, the man is pretty stiff and arthritic as well. They brought their dog--a 9 month old Rottie/Lab cross (I don't see any Lab in the dog), saying that this class was "their last hope". Their (IDIOT!) daughter "rescued the dog from a shelter and gifted it to them" back in May, and since they've had so many problems with her, the daughter "treated" them to my class, saying "please give this a chance before you take her back to the shelter."

:sigh:

I won't go into detail about all the issues here, but suffice it to say, this dog gets NO exercise. (They do NOT walk her--at ALL! The husband tried, but she pulled so much that he gave up.) They let her out in their small yard, and she tries to dig to China.

I got the dog into a Gentle Leader, which has made their lives WAY easier (we don't do choke chains at PetsMart, which is not to say that they are bad IN THE RIGHT HANDS.) They are now able to walk the dog, but this is still not enough exercise for her, not hardly. These people are very sedentary, and the man gets frustrated by the dog's excess energy, and hits her...:sigh: I can only do what I can do, but I have spent a TON of extra time advising and counseling these folks, and I'm simply trying to to save the dog from being send back to the shelter--not many people will adopt a high energy teenaged Rottie. (They actually asked me: "Do *you* know anyone who can take her?? We're at the end of our rope with this dog.'')

I recommended they try putting a weight vest on this dog while walking her, simply to get more "bang for their exercise buck", since there is no one who will RUN this dog, and this is the best I can do under the circumstances. Sometimes that's ALL that can be done!

So don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, here...

The tragic thing is that this is a NICE dog; she behaves *beautifully* for me. Smart, attentive, and VERY respectful of appropriate authority. These people are NOT capable of handling her in this way, so I am simply trying to save this dog by giving them some "tools". My fingers are crossed for this situation!

elctrnc
Feb. 2, 2009, 07:45 AM
YOu can roll your eyes all you want. If you would LISTEN to what he says, the exercise comes BEFORE the training. He wants the tough dogs tired enough to be able to teach the owners, which he does. Most of these people are incredibly uncoordinated with their dogs. They need all the help they can get to do what he tries to show them. A dog that is tired will be more cooperative. How difficult is that for you to understand? Most of these dogs get zero exercise. Where would you prefer that energy to go? We aren't talking about people who are GOOD with dogs, or there wouldn't be a problem to begin with. His methods work, the dogs aren't damaged and in the cases where the owners follow up with their homework, the dog usually maintains his new behavior.


Here's the problem with that: People are going to use the quick fix and not train their dog. I went online to see if I could find the specifics of this episode, and instead I found people talking about how wonderful their weight packs are "because my dog walks so much better with a pack than without." Do you think there is any training going on there? No. These people watched the newfangled Tee Vee and said, "wow! I can put a pack on my dog and he'll walk better." The episode with the pit had very little substance on how to actually train your dog to walk on a leash. Maybe all that was "off camera," but at the end, the dog was still walking ahead of the people, but not physically pulling the leash out of their hands. Guess that was supposed to be a success.

Oh, and if you have a high energy dog that needs exercise, which you just can't give, then maybe it is time to rehome the dog. Just a thought. Like these people who get dalmatians and keep them in an apartment and just take them out to go to the bathroom. Hello??

Oh, and if these people are so incredibly uncoordinated, don't you think that positive punishment is a little more than they can handle? With choke collars and brisk changes of direction and what you guys want to call "attention grabbers" where you are "tapping" the dog and whatever punishment you want to add when the dog is doing something undesirable, your timing has to be PERFECT, or else you are punishing the more desirable action. For someone like Cesar who does have the timing, that's fine. You can definitely achieve results with that system....and many of you on this thread have done so. But for someone at home watching this show....trying to imitate these things (which is definitely what is happening)...with no timing and no coordination....it's is a recipe for disaster.


A long walk, carrying a pack or not, is good exercise and if done correctly, also reinforces the hierarchy.
"Reinfores the hierarchy"???? Oy vey. :(

Dr. Doolittle
Feb. 2, 2009, 09:38 AM
Yes, ideally everyone *trains* their dog, and doesn't rely on A) TV or B) quick fix gimmicks.

NO ONE is a bigger advocate for training than I am; and one of the things that I always teach in my classes IS timing, and how important it is to "reinforce" (positively or negatively) the behavior within a *very* small window of time. Otherwise it will be inneffective. (This is critically important, and I actually think this should be emphasized more than it is on ALL the "dog training shows"...Or should I say "human training shows". ;))

However, as far as dogs who don't get enough exercise needing to be "rehomed", there are NEVER going to be enough homes for them!

The vast majority of dogs don't get enough exercise; especially in the suburbs (and people aquire dogs based on emotion, or because they're "cute"--and don't do their homework about what the breed they choose NEEDS in order to to be healthy and happy.) People are often just dumb and impulsive that way, but there are simply not enough alternatives to "getting them adequate exercise" (mostly not gonna happen :sigh:), or "re homing." Everyone knows what the sad result often is IF no other alternative can be found! So training first, and then "utilizing a tool" (like a weight vest) so that the owners can at least have some way to channel off the dog's excess energy (which is the cause of most training/behavior problems right there), so that they don't have to give the dog up. Usually to a shelter, since there are simply never going to be enough "loving, appropriate, and exercise-intensive homes" waiting with open arms to take all these "problem" unwanted dogs. There are no simple "solutions" to this problem, since you will NEVER be able to educate everyone well enough BEFORE they buy a dog!

Bottom line, let's just look at ways to save as many of these poor dogs as possible...

Auventera Two
Feb. 2, 2009, 09:59 AM
Cesar is AWESOME. I have one of his books, and everything he says is excellent, well written advice that REALLY WORKS. All 3 of my dogs came from bad beginnings - one from a puppy mill - two from abuse and neglect. Cesar's techniques are what saved my Pit Bull/Lab mix.

Cesar is not a dog "trainer." If you want training, get Patricia McConnel's books and publications. She is wonderful too, though her and Cesar disagree strongly in some aspects. You take what you can use and disgard the rest, from both.

The end result is balanced, happy dogs, and a happy home. Guaranteed. :)

The grandest lesson I've learned from Cesar is the need for EXERCISE. If you get your dog working, everything else falls into place.

Dr. Doolittle
Feb. 2, 2009, 10:06 AM
Cesar is AWESOME. I have one of his books, and everything he says is excellent, well written advice that REALLY WORKS. All 3 of my dogs came from bad beginnings - one from a puppy mill - two from abuse and neglect. Cesar's techniques are what saved my Pit Bull/Lab mix.

Cesar is not a dog "trainer." If you want training, get Patricia McConnel's books and publications. She is wonderful too, though her and Cesar disagree strongly in some aspects. You take what you can use and disgard the rest, from both.

The end result is balanced, happy dogs, and a happy home. Guaranteed. :)

The grandest lesson I've learned from Cesar is the need for EXERCISE. If you get your dog working, everything else falls into place.


Yup! :yes:

(And I love Patricia McConnell; I recommend her book "The Other End of the Leash" as required reading for my dog students...)

mayhew
Feb. 2, 2009, 10:11 AM
The only correlation I see between dog training and horse training is: that both species can be and need to be trained and that voice training is beneficial. Not seeing much correlation between methods though. I mean you could I guess use treats to train you horse but I wouldn't. Nor would I lunge my dog- lol.

Ever had a hyperactive Border Collie? You'd be tempted.

I do see a lot of correlation, not when it comes to the specific methods, but when it comes to the philosophy of training and the mental state that you want to be in, and that you want the animal to be in, when you are doing it. It makes you re-think some of the old chestnuts we use, both with dogs and horses. And wonder why we keep doing them, over and over and over, when it is obvious that they don't work.

pAin't_Misbehavin'
Feb. 2, 2009, 12:03 PM
Except that, for what some are saying, he ads weighing a dog down so he learns better to heel because he will have a job and be tired?:eek:

I don't remember that little bit anywhere, in fact, have not heard that one until I read about it here.:confused:
Then, I don't have any trouble, or know of any dog trainer that would, teaching any dog to heel and not pull on the leash passably, in a few minutes, just with a leash, a flat collar and no jerking.;)
It is all about foot work and timing, so the dog is learning.:)
Now, it is harder to teach a beginner dog owner to do that proficiently.:yes:

I guess weighting down a dog is analagous to running a horse around in circles to "get his mind right"? I never understood why anyone would do either - you just wind up with a fitter animal that takes longer to tire out the next time.:lol:
Right - I remember all those pinch collars and slip collars and leash-popping we used to do back the day. Who knew all we needed to do was a) stand still when dog pulls b) move when dog doesn't pull.:yes: It does take a little bit of footwork and timing, you're right. But it doesn't look very macho, does it?:D

lauriep
Feb. 2, 2009, 09:17 PM
Here's the problem with that: People are going to use the quick fix and not train their dog. I went online to see if I could find the specifics of this episode, and instead I found people talking about how wonderful their weight packs are "because my dog walks so much better with a pack than without." Do you think there is any training going on there? No. These people watched the newfangled Tee Vee and said, "wow! I can put a pack on my dog and he'll walk better." The episode with the pit had very little substance on how to actually train your dog to walk on a leash. Maybe all that was "off camera," but at the end, the dog was still walking ahead of the people, but not physically pulling the leash out of their hands. Guess that was supposed to be a success.

Oh, and if you have a high energy dog that needs exercise, which you just can't give, then maybe it is time to rehome the dog. Just a thought. Like these people who get dalmatians and keep them in an apartment and just take them out to go to the bathroom. Hello??

Oh, and if these people are so incredibly uncoordinated, don't you think that positive punishment is a little more than they can handle? With choke collars and brisk changes of direction and what you guys want to call "attention grabbers" where you are "tapping" the dog and whatever punishment you want to add when the dog is doing something undesirable, your timing has to be PERFECT, or else you are punishing the more desirable action. For someone like Cesar who does have the timing, that's fine. You can definitely achieve results with that system....and many of you on this thread have done so. But for someone at home watching this show....trying to imitate these things (which is definitely what is happening)...with no timing and no coordination....it's is a recipe for disaster.


"Reinfores the hierarchy"???? Oy vey. :(

I don't know what "you guys" you are referring to, but I have never used that term in my life, and certainly don't consider a choke collar an attention grabber.

Yeah hierarchy, because like it or not, there is one.

Aven
Feb. 2, 2009, 11:12 PM
Alpha roll is not a myth, used correctly it works.
I am not talking of initiating, I have only used it when a pup has challenged me FIRST.
It works.....

Its not a myth... no. Its not done by wolves in the way Ceasar thinks it is. The only time a wolf will force another one over is if it intends to kill it. A subordinate wolf OFFERS the roll. Its NOT forced unless the wolf intends to kill it or drive it out of the pack.

Now if you want to threaten your pup with death.. well I am sure it will 'knock him down a peg or two" back handing a toddler will do that too.. but its not the best way to go about it.

Why wouldn't you just train your pup to look to you for leadership? Its simple and easy! Why try to be a tyranical leader when you can be a just one?

I want all my dogs to be obedient and well mannered (and they are) but I own them because I love dogs. I don't want to intimidate them into submission. Make death threats etc etc.

Once again.. there are reasons why no professionals like the DW show and Milan's ideology. If it worked well and did what people think it does he would be hailed by all-nor condemned by all.

As to the exercise crap. Its BS. Training a dog to use their brain wears them out faster than going for a walk. Walking at a humans pace is NOT great exercise for most dogs (a yorkie maybe) But Milan doesn't want dogs to think. He wants them shut down and to not respond to their environment. They need to be in a state of learned helplessness. Excess exercise DOES help that greatly.

Taking the edge of the dog is fine... but it would be like lunging your horse till it was tired and then having a hard training session. A dog needs lots of energy to be able to learn.

Bluey
Feb. 3, 2009, 07:40 AM
---"Training a dog to use their brain wears them out faster than going for a walk. Walking at a humans pace is NOT great exercise for most dogs (a yorkie maybe)"---

Right, well stated, along with much else in your post.
Training horses or dogs or people is about CONCEPTS, not only improvisation on the job.

I think that is what is missing in what we can see of the CM training, like someone trying to teach a horse to piaffe, that doesn't know other than seeing a horse dancing around and is going to have their horse do that funny dance, just because they can.:)
Pat Parelli in the older days comes to mind.;)

Whoever mentioned Patricia McConnel is right, she is at the forefront of much of dog training theories today.
We had a two day seminar on handling dogs for veterinarians, those that work for them and dog instructors and she was very good.

I think that is what CM lacks, he needs to keep learning, not just doing.
Which, as I have said, maybe lately he has been doing, I have not seen the later shows.

We can ride many horses every day, but if we don't keep learning in a larger context than in the saddle, we just won't advance in our total horse knowledge.
We need to educate or eye and mind along with our direct work with our subjects.
The same with dogs.

The other side is also some trainers that learn the theory but don't have the hands on experience to back it up.
It takes both, or we come across as less adequate than we may think we are, in the eyes of those that have a more complete education.

Not knowing enough is not a sin and it can be remedied with learning more.:yes:

RockingN
Feb. 3, 2009, 12:13 PM
Everyone has their own opinion on dog training. Just because you don't like the things that CM does, doesn't make him or you wrong. If your way works, good for you. His way works. Sure there are always times where a method doesn't work. Dogs are individuals too. Just like with horses, one method won't work with every individual. If you hate CM, don't watch his show and don't use his methods, no need to scrutinize him. He's helping out a lot of people and a lot of dogs.

Personally I see nothing wrong with CM's little kicks that he gives and his "put down" method. Some of those dogs will not hesitate to bite you or another dog, and a bite will hurt a lot more than that little kick he gives or when he "puts down" dogs.

So if you think CM should be stopped or whatever, why don't you try to impact people and help dogs the way he does and see who has crap to say about you.

SuperSTB
Feb. 3, 2009, 12:54 PM
Ever had a hyperactive Border Collie? You'd be tempted.

I do see a lot of correlation, not when it comes to the specific methods, but when it comes to the philosophy of training and the mental state that you want to be in, and that you want the animal to be in, when you are doing it. It makes you re-think some of the old chestnuts we use, both with dogs and horses. And wonder why we keep doing them, over and over and over, when it is obvious that they don't work.

I was talking specific methods...