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JanWeber
Jan. 16, 2009, 12:51 PM
He's been eating Ultium mixed with dissolved timothy cubes, but seems to be off feed again. Normally, sweet delicious Ultium makes up for having to eat the hay cubes, but now he won't touch any of it. Doesn't really eat hay - just chews it up, sucks out all the good taste, and spits it out. I think it's time to get the boy more roughage and calories - don't know if he's IR, but he is prone to diarrhea when he's eaten senior feed in the years before I had him. Any ideas?

buck22
Jan. 16, 2009, 01:10 PM
both my horses are IR and I'm starting to suspect cushings in one of them, though I do not know for sure. Cushings and IR do not nec. go together, but I personally feed my horses a ration balancer by buckeye - Grow N Win. Its a high protein low sugar feed designed to supplement a foraged based diet.

My 28yr old mustang is on a senior version of the rationbalancer, Safe n Easy, though its higher in nscs than GnW, and its fed in higher quantities. I will likely switch my senior to GnW though, his teeth are in great shape for his age and he really doesn't need the extra sugar.

I don't know that either of these feeds would be considered "complete" though as they're not meant to be a significant source of calories... my horses are on practically free choice hay 24/7.

You mention your horse is chewing up and spitting out hay, could he possibly be quidding? how are his teeth?

If your horse is refusing sweet foods, perhaps check for ulcers? One of my horses developed runny manure and probable ulcers from having been fed a diet that was too high in sugar for him to handle (this was without my consent too :mad:). I say probable with the ulcers as I haven't had him scoped, but he's been responding favorably to ulcer treatment.

Finally, soaked beetpulp is a fabulous way to introduce roughage, calories and additional water in a diet. Quite a bit can be fed too. Soaked, its good for an older horse. I fed dry shreds for years, but recently switched to soaked for the additional water and 'chew time'. I buy unmolasses, but discovered that even that has molasses anyhow, so I rinse/soak/rinse mine. Takes about 40 min every morning. I find pellets to be extremely economical, but require quite a bit of soak time, and the binding agent is likely molasses and it takes me forever to rinse it out.

For pure calories, I love cocosoya oil, but it doesn't help in the roughage department.

Finally, search yahoo for the cushings group, extremely helpful people there!!!!

JanWeber
Jan. 16, 2009, 02:00 PM
He's in his 30's and has practically no teeth. When the dentist is here, she just looks for sharp spots since there isn't enough left to float. He's been on Pergolide for Cushings for years - doesn't eat hay and now won't eat dissolved hay cubes, so I do need a complete feed instead of a ration balancer. I mention his well-controlled Cushings so that people know high-molasses senior feeds are out of the question... He needs the roughage as well as the calories - oil tends to increase diarrhea, so we don't generally go the cocosoya route. I do have an EPSM horse, so I tend to be in favor of an oil-based diet, if only he could tolerate it! He won't touch soaked beet pullp even mixed with grain - of course, I use the plain, rather than the molasses-coated.

sublimequine
Jan. 16, 2009, 02:03 PM
Have you tried adding a few alfalfa cubes to the timothy cubes? My mare will NOT touch timothy cubes, but sure does love her alfalfa cubes. :)

JanWeber
Jan. 16, 2009, 03:22 PM
Vet has told me not to feed alfalfa since it can be hard on the kidnets - old horse and don't want to risk it. I think I'll go to the feed store...

buck22
Jan. 16, 2009, 03:26 PM
ah! had you mentioned the pergolide, age, and teeth in the initial post (perhaps I missed it too!) I would've responded differently. :)

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/
^^^ These people are extraordinarily helpful.

Buffyblue
Jan. 16, 2009, 03:34 PM
The people at Sergeantsville Grain & Feed are very helpful, and they carry the Pennfield feeds (which I have been using for 6 years now) - and highly recommend. I would also mention checking out Blue Seal Trotter which kept my 30+ y.o. horse fat and gorgeous even without being able to eat much hay due to missing 10 teeth in the back of her mouth.

Eclectic Horseman
Jan. 16, 2009, 03:35 PM
I like Triple Crown Senior. It is a complete feed that is beet pulp based. Highly palatable and can be mixed with water. Here's an informative article--

http://www.triplecrownfeed.com/newshealthproblems.php

This is the feed

http://triplecrownfeed.com/senior.php

monstrpony
Jan. 16, 2009, 03:45 PM
TC Senior is also lower in NSC than Ultium. I believe the TC is about 12% which is pretty darned low. Mine find it very palatable. It is beet pulp based.

(btw, an EPSM type diet should be referred to as forage based and fat supplemented, not oil/fat based. The amount of fat in even an EPSM diet is still relatively low)

Cherry
Jan. 16, 2009, 04:37 PM
I believe the TC is about 12%....`
Guess again! TC Senior is 15.7% NSC; TC Low Starch is 15% NSC.

The TC Safe Starch forage, which contains something akin to ration balancer pellets is a guaranteed 10%, I believe. Perhaps your pony would eat this if you didn't make it too wet. It's worth a try.

I think no matter what route you go this can get expensive.

Molasses acts like a laxative in the system, that could account for the diarrhea.

JanWeber
Jan. 16, 2009, 04:48 PM
monstrpony - the mare gets 28 oz. of oil per day divided among 2 feedings of hay stretcher and alfalfa pellets plus free choice hay. Can have oil, but limited forage - can't have forage and limited oil...

MaresNest
Jan. 16, 2009, 10:14 PM
`
Guess again! TC Senior is 15.7% NSC; TC Low Starch is 15% NSC.

I think they have changed the formula a bit. When Cindi was first diagnosed with Cushings, I remember TC Senior being 15-16% NSC, but now it is 11.7%, per the company. (http://triplecrownfeeds.com/news-carbohydrates.php) (Scroll down to the chart of feeds.)

For Cushings horses, I really like Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance cubes (guaranteed below 10% NSC) and TC Senior.

JanWeber
Jan. 17, 2009, 10:29 AM
That's what we've been feeding him in his mush - tried reducing the amount of hay cubes relative to Ultium and he still wouldn't eat more than a mouthful. I'd worry that he's colicking, but he's otherwise bright.

LarkspurCO
Jan. 17, 2009, 11:41 AM
Purina has been making Horse Chow 100 and 200 since at least the 1980s when I first used it to fatten up an old toothless horse. That horse went on to live well into his 40s. Something to consider.

http://horse.purinamills.com/products/Horse_Chow_100.asp

monstrpony
Jan. 17, 2009, 02:16 PM
I do have an EPSM horse, so I tend to be in favor of an oil-based diet .

I was responding to the statement quoted above, not to the diet for this particular horse. Alas, referring to an EPSM diet as "oil-based" just sets off the anit-fat people. In fact, the standard EPSM diet is not high-fat, nor is it oil-based; it is a fat-supplemented, forage-based diet.

Just asking for come care in terminology, not criticizing what you are doing for this horse. Sorry if it came off otherwise.

Cherry
Jan. 17, 2009, 02:30 PM
Jan, what feed company brands are you able to get easily in your neck of the woods? It doesn't make any sense for someone to recommend something that takes an act of God for you to get--you need a feed, or feedstuffs, that you are able to get on a reliable basis.

That said, I would pick a company (I tend to really like Triple Crown products) and call them for a recommendation! You have to make sure that this pony gets more bang for the buck from its "feed". Triple Crown uses probiotics, rice bran and other things in their feed to help put and keep weight on a horse.

You might also not make the feed so mushy--use half the water and add some magnesium oxide in the feed so that the pony isn't turned off by the texture. The magnesium oxide should help to keep the pony drinking--or use Tractgard.

The pony's meds might also be taking away his appetite (if she's on meds). You might have the vet out to do bloodwork to determine if it's right on, or needs to be adjusted. It wouldn't hurt to check the thyroid or do some other tests to rule out physical problems.

I'm now officially out of ideas....

M. O'Connor
Jan. 17, 2009, 02:32 PM
We kept our Cushings pony going for years, and years, and years on a diet of soaked beet pulp (non molasses), soaked alfalfa pellets (cubes were eventually too hard for her to chew), and about a quart of ReLeve (High fat, low starch KER feed, see links below). She was on Pergolide as well, not such an expense as she was a small.

She lived WELL into her 30's, and went over the bridge from causes unrelated to Cushings after nearly a decade after being diagnosed with it.

Mali
Jan. 17, 2009, 04:36 PM
The people at Sergeantsville Grain & Feed are very helpful, and they carry the Pennfield feeds (which I have been using for 6 years now) - and highly recommend. I would also mention checking out Blue Seal Trotter which kept my 30+ y.o. horse fat and gorgeous even without being able to eat much hay due to missing 10 teeth in the back of her mouth.

Sergeantsville Feed also carries McCauley Bros. feeds and you should definately look into the Alam. You can read all of the info on the Alam at www.mccauleybros.com.

MaresNest
Jan. 17, 2009, 05:07 PM
She lived WELL into her 30's, and went over the bridge from causes unrelated to Cushings after nearly a decade after being diagnosed with it.

My hat's off to you! I hope very much (and work very hard) to have the same outcome for my Cindi. :)

Caroline Weber
Jan. 17, 2009, 08:01 PM
Some of you who've lived in the area and done Pony Club or shown at DVHA may know the old man: St. Cloud, a 16.2 gray Arab/Trakehner cross, a retired showjumper who is "personality plus". We can get nearly anything we need from Sergeantsville, so suggest away. He doesn't drink in his stall, so we try to keep his food fairly wet - doesn't seem to be the sloppiness that bothers him. Tried something new last night - I have a trainer friend who told me to try Complete Advantage. The amount of molasses makes me shudder, but it's better than some. A handful of CA in with the hay cube mush and Ultium and HE ATE IT. Let's hope it lasts...

chai
Jan. 17, 2009, 09:21 PM
I have an elderly (34 years) QH with Cushing's. He started to have weight problems last year, and the vet suggested that I add SafeChoice to his Triple Crown Senior. I feed it in a soupy warm mash at every feeding. He loves it and he has put on weight nicely.

Appassionato
Jan. 17, 2009, 09:38 PM
He's in his 30's and has practically no teeth. When the dentist is here, she just looks for sharp spots since there isn't enough left to float. He's been on Pergolide for Cushings for years - doesn't eat hay and now won't eat dissolved hay cubes, so I do need a complete feed instead of a ration balancer. I mention his well-controlled Cushings so that people know high-molasses senior feeds are out of the question... He needs the roughage as well as the calories - oil tends to increase diarrhea, so we don't generally go the cocosoya route. I do have an EPSM horse, so I tend to be in favor of an oil-based diet, if only he could tolerate it! He won't touch soaked beet pullp even mixed with grain - of course, I use the plain, rather than the molasses-coated.

Bo was older and a hard keeper (intestinal cancer), so I know your demise as far as getting cals into a horse that doesn't eat a lot! Bo had all of his teeth when he died, but he was stingy with them. :lol:

Bo got:

dry no molasses beep (don't ask, it'd for another thread and he didn't choke) at roughly half of his ration
Seminole Equalizer at the performance horse rating (2+ lbs a day) because that's what he needed
4-8 ounces a day of flax seed (whole) for fat
Seminole Perform Best when he need extra cals aside from what fit into his half ration compared to beepOh, and he got FasTrack in addition as needed for adsorption. Yes, Bo's ration was haphazard...so was Bo. :lol: And yes, I soak the beep for my new guy. Bo didn't like and could detect a spoonfull of oil in his feed so I had to find fat sources another way. But it can be done. ;)

Watermark Farm
Jan. 18, 2009, 12:29 AM
My cushings pony (toothless) is on LMF Low NSC Complete and has done very well on it.

The Yahoo! cushings group is a helpful source for diet advice, too.

race_run_jump
Jan. 18, 2009, 11:25 AM
Made just for the Cushings, lamanitic types. www.mccauleybros.com
I know that there are dealers in NJ. It really works wonders. I have used it for years with great results on a variety of "weird cases" at my farm. Disclaimer - I now sell McCauley's in VA, but was wildly convinced of the quality long before I started selling it. Give a shout if you have trouble finding the dealer in your area.

msj
Jan. 18, 2009, 11:34 AM
I don't know if it's the best complete feed for a Cushing's horse but I've had good luck with Nutrena Kwik, which is a complete feed. I also use a fair amount of beet pulp and up to 2 cups corn oil/day. When he came to me a little over a yr ago, he was on a senior feed and, while he wasn't thin, he was a bit underweight. I removed the senior feed because of the Cushing's as most senior feeds have too much sugar content. I don't know if the old geezer (27) is IR or not and his owner isn't about to test him but I do try to be careful with any sugars. When the vet (who has known this horse for about 15 yrs) came to do spring wellness checks and blood work etc., she gave me a gold star because she hadn't seen him looking that good in years. That sure made my day! :)