Andalusians & Lusitanos for dressage

[Marengo]

If you were going to go out to buy a dressage prospect would you start your search with Andalusians & Lusitanos? I was just discussing this the other day with a friend. We were wondering why we don't see more of them and we were discussing the pros and cons of the breed. I realized I don't know enough about them to even guess why they are a rare breed.

I know there are a few in competition but it seems most people looking for a dressage prospect are looking for a warmblood, trakener or wb/tb cross. Say your goal was to be competitive, not just to ride a pretty horse with a flowing mane. You want to bring along a 3/4yr old with the hope that it will be your limitation that prevents you from Grand Prix, not the horse. Why don't more people buy Andies & Lusitanos? Is it lack of availability or high cost? I've seen some really nice, well trained individuals but perhaps they are too hot when they are young for the average rider? Do their gaits not extend as well as the more traditional dressage breeds? I'm basically wondering why there aren't more dressage riders actively seeking them out, perhaps there is something I don't know.

[oldbag]

Apologies to Andi & Lusi fans for what I am about to say - but - most of them move like sewing machines on speed.;)

Yes, they are trainable so with a decent rider they'll learn all the 'tricks.'
But a horse with cadence, lift and bigger paces will always look better.

[Marengo]

I thought that Andalusians & Lusitanos were the breed that the 'art of dressage' was invented with? Were they once great movers and this has been bred out of them or has dressage changed so much that they no longer fit? I thought their natural head carriage and hind legs underneath them made them ideal for it. A lot of warmblood lines are good for both dressage & jumpers and you certainly don't see too many Andies jumping so I guess there must be some conformational differences. How differently are these Baroque breeds built compared to WBs? There also aren't too many Andie/WB crosses that I know of so maybe their conformation doesn't complement each other? Any Andie/Lusitano/WB breeders out there? I don't know much about Andies & Lusitanos, and I personally thought that I haven't seen too many in competition because they are rare.

Oh, and in case you're looking at my profile and thinking my horse experience is all from New Zealand, I'm actually from Canada, I'm just working in NZ at the moment.

[indyblue]

Oh thank god for that.Now I can take you seriously being from Canada and all LOL
We do know a couple of things about horses this side of the world.
Ive seen a couple of WB/Andie crosses and they havent worked out.Very heavy and still seemed to have retained the high knee action.These were with more of an old fashioned type of WB though.Perhaps with a more modern type the cross may be a little more successful.

[Marengo]

Ya, I guess my comment did seem like a knock against New Zealanders (Kiwis) but it wasn't intentional. I'm new here and I have no idea what types of horses are around, my knowledge of what I've seen in the dressage ring is limited to Canada. Although, I'd like to know what's available in Wellington so please do PM me if you're familiar with the area.

Good to know about the Andie/WB cross. I thought it could be a good thing but by 'coarse' I'm picturing a horse with a large barrel, one I could not get my leg around.

[slc2]

Would I get one? Sure? The last time around, though, I didn't. The cost of a real sport type is so out of this world right now, that I couldn't afford one. My guess is that a really correct dressage Lusitano, able to be fluid, collect, extend and work over his back at any level of dressage, costs about 30%-40% more than a comparable warmblood.

'the original dressage horse'

Depends on who you ask. If you ask some Andy/Lusitano breeders they will say that (and that warmbloods are stupid elephants and you don't want one), but actually if you study a little bit, you might find out something else. That both breeds' founders were originally developed as multi-purpose horses.

Is that just propaganda from breeders who want to market their horses to cutters, reiners, jumpers, dressagies and pleasure riders? Could be. That's the other side's argument. :lol:

But of course, 'dressage' has also changed, with its emphasis on transitions and 'athleticism' (being able to extend and collect the stride almost immediately) may actually be a very, very different critter from the dressage of 400-200 years ago.

Collection is still required, but transitions and fluidity have become a major requirement too. This changes the ballgame.

A great many Andalusians and Lusitanos DO have 'sewing machine gaits'.

Some of them, that's the only way they can move. There are individuals that have very 'poor gaits for dressage', tight, restricted, up and downy trot strides, short, jerky lateral walks, and lateral, restricted choppy canter strides.

But there are also a great many individuals who have been trained incorrectly - rushed into collection ('because they are the original dressage horse, they can piaffe at 3 without any fundamentals being established (or muscles being built!)').

They COULD move far better, but are rushed into very incorrect upper level work by ignorant owners, who believe the myth that some breeds do not need basics in dressage. There is a whole population of trainers who cater to them, and reinforce their beliefs, and teach them to work their horses with dropped backs, hocks behind them at mincing extremely sideways positions and the horse's necks pulled in and telescoped, and convince eager, ignorant people that that's 'classical'. Then we have many others just watching videos on youtube and training their horses to piaffe and passage with no previous developmental work at all, no basics, no muscle training, and no supervision.

Oldbag, can you really blame the horse breed for 'unsuitability' when they are trained this way?

Like most glamorous 'fad' breeds (Friesian is another one), there are a great many very unsuitable, inferior animals being sold simply because they are pretty and many beginners have no idea what to look for in a dressage horse (and believe that OTHER myth, that 'the other horses just win because the judges are so unfair').

There are people out there selling Andalusians and Lusitanos who have a very practical, sensible view of their animals and who understand dressage and have experience in it.

And there are a great many MORE people selling very average individuals who are not particularly suitable for dressage, and are beating their chests about how perfect their horses are and how bad other breeds (chiefly warmbloods) suck.

Group 1 is rare. Group 2 is very common in the Lusitano and Andalusian world, and Marengo, they are shooting themselves in the foot and driving people away, but so are the inflated prices.

[JMurray]

my post is in response to the OP

I am looking at Lipizzans for a young prospect. I decided to not look at Andalusians and Lusitanos because they were too flamboyant for my taste. When you move away from the warmblood breeds to select a dressage horse it becomes a very individual decision and based on the unique experience that you want to have with the Dressage journey.

Andalusians and Lusitanos are beautiful to watch, but my heart is pulled to the Lipizzan as my choice for the classical breed.

[FriesianX]

OP, I show in California - definately a big "dressage state". While Warmbloods are still in the majority in most classes, we DO see many of the Baroque horses - Andalusians and Friesians, and in much smaller numbers, Lusitanos and Lippizans. And we see some darn nice Baroque horses. I can speak much more about the Andies and Friesians because I see many of them (and know trainers and breeders who breed and ride them)... We DO see some who are not well suited for dressage - I do see some Andies that are rather "trappy" in their movement, and some Friesians who are badly strung out behind. But we also see some that are quite NICE - and are beating many of the Warmbloods.

We also see Warmbloods who are like sewing machines, or strung out behind, or flat movers - there are representatives of ALL breeds that just don't do well in dressage. The real trick is to recognize good gaits and be able to TRAIN the horse properly. Too often, inexperienced riders are drawn to the "fairytale" horses (Baroque breeds) because of their gentle temperments and romantic good looks - and they don't invest in proper training.

I see a lot of nice Baroque horses trucking around beginner riders - they aren't well ridden or trained, but the riders are happy, they love their horses, and they gain confidence and start learning the basics, get exposed to the show ring, etc. I don't think that is a bad thing at all - but it does help contribute to the thought that the Baroque breeds don't do as well in the sports.

When you see a nice one, well ridden, it is stunning - the Baroque breeds do tend to have more talent in the collected work, and often less in the extended gaits, but I've seen some that were world class, stunning horses even at the mid levels where the emphasis is more on the medium and extended gaits. And they are winning. But a world class horse, irregardless of breed is EXPENSIVE. And good training, even for a mid-quality horse is EXPENSIVE. And talented FEI riders and trainers are rare!

Since many of the Baroque horses do better at the collected work - but few RIDERS make it to the FEI levels where collected work is highlighted, we seldom see the Baroque breeds perform at their strengths.

And there are less breeders breeding Baroque horse for dressage (well, there are less Baroque horses bred for ANYTHING). There are far fewer Andalusians born in the US than there are Hannoverians - far fewer Baroque horses than Warmbloods. So the prices tend to be higher - although prices are coming down as number of horses being bred in the US increase - I don't see them as that much more expensive anymore. But again, I'm coming from the West Coast, different market...

I do think the Baroque breeds are more "accepted" on the West Coast than they are in the Mid-West and East Coast. By the way - I've not seen many judges who were breed biased - I do ride Baroque (not Andies though) and have probably run into TWO or THREE judges in my entire riding career (and I do show a lot) that were clearly biased - it doesn't just show up in their scores, but in their comments and conversations (and luckily, one of them retired:yes:). Generally, I find judges to be open minded to all breeds - if the horse moves well, is ridden well, and trained well, they score well!

[reidsporthorses.nz]

OP, I show in California - definately a big "dressage state". While Warmbloods are still in the majority in most classes, we DO see many of the Baroque horses - Andalusians and Friesians, and in much smaller numbers, Lusitanos and Lippizans. And we see some darn nice Baroque horses. I can speak much more about the Andies and Friesians because I see many of them (and know trainers and breeders who breed and ride them)... We DO see some who are not well suited for dressage - I do see some Andies that are rather "trappy" in their movement, and some Friesians who are badly strung out behind. But we also see some that are quite NICE - and are beating many of the Warmbloods.

We also see Warmbloods who are like sewing machines, or strung out behind, or flat movers - there are representatives of ALL breeds that just don't do well in dressage. The real trick is to recognize good gaits and be able to TRAIN the horse properly. Too often, inexperienced riders are drawn to the "fairytale" horses (Baroque breeds) because of their gentle temperments and romantic good looks - and they don't invest in proper training.

I see a lot of nice Baroque horses trucking around beginner riders - they aren't well ridden or trained, but the riders are happy, they love their horses, and they gain confidence and start learning the basics, get exposed to the show ring, etc. I don't think that is a bad thing at all - but it does help contribute to the thought that the Baroque breeds don't do as well in the sports.

When you see a nice one, well ridden, it is stunning - the Baroque breeds do tend to have more talent in the collected work, and often less in the extended gaits, but I've seen some that were world class, stunning horses even at the mid levels where the emphasis is more on the medium and extended gaits. And they are winning. But a world class horse, irregardless of breed is EXPENSIVE. And good training, even for a mid-quality horse is EXPENSIVE. And talented FEI riders and trainers are rare!

Since many of the Baroque horses do better at the collected work - but few RIDERS make it to the FEI levels where collected work is highlighted, we seldom see the Baroque breeds perform at their strengths.

And there are less breeders breeding Baroque horse for dressage (well, there are less Baroque horses bred for ANYTHING). There are far fewer Andalusians born in the US than there are Hannoverians - far fewer Baroque horses than Warmbloods. So the prices tend to be higher - although prices are coming down as number of horses being bred in the US increase - I don't see them as that much more expensive anymore. But again, I'm coming from the West Coast, different market...

I do think the Baroque breeds are more "accepted" on the West Coast than they are in the Mid-West and East Coast. By the way - I've not seen many judges who were breed biased - I do ride Baroque (not Andies though) and have probably run into TWO or THREE judges in my entire riding career (and I do show a lot) that were clearly biased - it doesn't just show up in their scores, but in their comments and conversations (and luckily, one of them retired:yes:). Generally, I find judges to be open minded to all breeds - if the horse moves well, is ridden well, and trained well, they score well!


from the POV of currently showing an Andi at FEI, i completely agree. i just bolded some bits that i think bears repeating

[pintopiaffe]

FX says it well.

As far as the extended gaits, extension should come FROM collection. What you see at lower levels (floaty front end or toe flicking at 1st level lengthens) is a natural movement for some conformations. Of course there are many (heated) disagreements about the degree of correctness of that. But it LOOKS good...

When you correctly train a baroque horse through the back, and they develop strength, and develop collection, the extensions come right along with it. And done correctly, they will be just as competitive as other types of movers because the extensions will be correct, and the collection will shine.

Now, it can be harder to get many baroque horses through the back, because they have a knack for arching their neck and looking pretty. ;)

Many will argue no difference in schools, but I find that a French/Portuguese school teacher/trainer will often be more able to deal with this type of holding in the back.

Temperament is different. In the way GOOD Arabs or Traks are different, IME. They should be both calm and very light. Not every rider likes a very light horse. That is very individual.

I am very lucky to ride and be around quite a few world class Lusos, but also breed baroque sporthorses of other breeds/crosses myself. I prefer a baroque horse. Just what I like. I've an Azteca (1/2 luso) in the oven, a Spanish Colonial filly, and my ArabX's are baroque in build and movement--and typically in temperament and the training style they respond best to. My young gelding when introduced to side reins 'put himself in position' immediately and looked like a finished horse. It made me chuckle, then we reviewed forward and went to ground driving with a live contact on the reins, because I don't want him "in position" (as pretty as he looks) I want him seeking the bit and over the back. ;)

[rainechyldes]

I love the baroque style horses. They are just too fun.

However that said. When I worked in Belgium, I was lucky enough to get to know Nuno O. Who used to 'fly' by to teach a few riders. I remember one day at lunch this discussion, how as lovely as the baroque horses were, and while yes bred for dressage.

They weren't what was 'winning' at the moment. (keep in mind, this is a 20 yr old conversation) That like everything else, preferences or fads come and go - and like any discipline, people will go with what it more common/acceptable/desired' at any given time frame in the 'life' of a sport.

Which to me made sense. The time & money invested in a sport, you need to consider what the best bang for your buck will be regarding horse type. (I'm talking the elites of course) Personally I keep talking myself out of any baroque breeds I see up for sale round here, only because I don't think I can explain yet another horse to the hubby. :)

[jdeboer01]

When you see a nice one, well ridden, it is stunning - the Baroque breeds do tend to have more talent in the collected work, and often less in the extended gaits, but I've seen some that were world class, stunning horses even at the mid levels where the emphasis is more on the medium and extended gaits. And they are winning. But a world class horse, irregardless of breed is EXPENSIVE. And good training, even for a mid-quality horse is EXPENSIVE. And talented FEI riders and trainers are rare!

Something to consider here...
If it really were true that Andies and Lusos are equally talented for dressage, why aren't more Pros riding them? Especially the ones where money is no object and winning is everything? Somehow I have difficulty picturing Anky or Isabel on an Iberian. ;)

[Elegante E]

Something to consider here...
If it really were true that Andies and Lusos are equally talented for dressage, why aren't more Pros riding them? Especially the ones where money is no object and winning is everything? Somehow I have difficulty picturing Anky or Isabel on an Iberian. ;)

Maybe cause they'd get bucked off as that RK crap would ruin these sensitive horses. As someone said earlier, the current fad is for WBs - horses bred in the country which is the home of most competitive dressage - hmm, figure that one out.

There are lots of PRE, Portuguese and other baroques that do move well for dressage (just have to look for them). Shoot, I'm an amateur rider and when I went looking specifically for a dressage mount, I chose Andalusians (1 pre, later a psp). Just couldn't get excited for WBs and I'm glad I did as they've been great to work with and have taught me tons (non of mine move like sewing machines). Let me ask others, how many WBs naturally come to collection, and offer piafe or passage? There are some on this board who'll deny that this can be so. To them I say, maybe you've never ridden a fit Andi. Yes, they must be trained to do it consistently and within the framework of a test, but I've sat pretty much every GP movement on one or the other of my horses over the years, just by them offering during the right moment.

The baroque horses are gaining in popularity and their prices have come down, which means you'll probably see more in the arena.

Oh and I saw several Hannovarian-PRE crosses at Paul Belasik's farm that I'm drooling over. Lovely shoulders and hind ends. Great movers. Drool.

[FriesianX]

Something to consider here...
If it really were true that Andies and Lusos are equally talented for dressage, why aren't more Pros riding them? Especially the ones where money is no object and winning is everything? Somehow I have difficulty picturing Anky or Isabel on an Iberian. ;)

Anky and Isabelle ride horses that are bred and promoted in their countries from their countries' stud farms. Several big name pros DO ride Baroque horses. The U.S. had an Andalusian short listed for the Team. Invasor was on the Spanish team. Sabine Schutt Kerry rode several Friesians to FEI levels. Kim Monk (again, CA trainer) took a Friesian to USDF HOY (NOT All Breeds, HOY!) at every level through 4th before he was sold as an FEI schoolmaster to a young rider. I know of several big name, highly respected people - judges and trainers - who ride Friesians, Friesian crosses, and Andalusians. I suspect if Lusitanos were more easily obtained in the US, I'd see these more often too. As these horses are more and more bred for MODERN DRESSAGE, you see more and more of them competing with ammies and pros. And I'm seeing more and more pros - again, I'm in CA, so what I see is the California market - accepting these horses as talented dressage prospects.

I don't dismiss the athletic abilities of the well bred Warmblood, but I also believe the Baroques have something to add to the competitive dressage equation, and as prices go down, and modern movement is bred into the horses, I suspect we'll see more and more of the pros appreciating these horses.

I realize you prefer the Warmbloods - but not everyone does, and it is becoming more common to see the Warmbloods beaten by the Baroques in the show ring. A nice horse is a nice horse.

[jdeboer01]

Anky and Isabelle ride horses that are bred and promoted in their countries from their countries' stud farms.

I sincerely doubt that patriotism has anything to do with their choice of horse. These competitors are in it to win. They will pick the horse that will most easily help them achieve their goals. When Anky starts competing at Reining, you can bet your bosom she'll be riding an American Quarter Horse.

Several big name pros DO ride Baroque horses. The U.S. had an Andalusian short listed for the Team. Invasor was on the Spanish team.

Well, if you're going to argue that Anky and Isabel ride Warmbloods from their country's stud farms, then why doesn't the same apply for the Spanish? Shouldn't they be representing their countries with Spanish horses? Two of the three Spanish competitors in Beijing were riding Warmbloods (one withdrew, however, due to injury). Plus, it's beginning to look like there are at least SOME PRE breeders that agree there's room for improvement within the breed. Did you see this stallion from the big PSI auction this past December? He sold for somewhere around 80,000 Euro. He's by a PRE stallion out of a Florestan mare. My guess is that his breeder is hoping PRE mare owners will consider him.

http://www.psi-auktion.de/englisch/s535403.html


Sabine Schutt Kerry rode several Friesians to FEI levels. Kim Monk (again, CA trainer) took a Friesian to USDF HOY (NOT All Breeds, HOY!) at every level through 4th before he was sold as an FEI schoolmaster to a young rider. I know of several big name, highly respected people - judges and trainers - who ride Friesians, Friesian crosses, and Andalusians.

In all honesty, Friesians and Iberians have very little in common. Sure, I guess maybe they look a TINY bit similar in conformation, but other than the hair, and the arbitrary term "baroque" -- nada. Friesians are historically carriage/harness horses and Iberians are historically riding horses. Their weaknesses as far as competitive dressage go, are practically polar opposites.

I don't dismiss the athletic abilities of the well bred Warmblood, but I also believe the Baroques have something to add to the competitive dressage equation

I think that, from a breeding standpoint, it's 100% the other way around. I believe that a Warmblood will improve a "baroque" far more than a "baroque" will improve a Warmblood.

I realize you prefer the Warmbloods - but not everyone does, and it is becoming more common to see the Warmbloods beaten by the Baroques in the show ring. A nice horse is a nice horse.

Au contraire! Friesians are my passion! However, I'm realistic about the reasons as to why the vast majority of BNT aren't riding them. By breeding my Friesian mares to proven Warmblood dressage sires, and then breeding the best of those offspring (fillies) back to proven Friesian dressage sires, I'm hoping to gradually improve the Friesian. Although they won't be "purebred", part of my goal is to maintain the "look" of a purebred.

[pintopiaffe]

Somehow I have difficulty picturing Anky or Isabel on an Iberian. ;)

Pick up a copy of Dressage in Lightness. I'll get the page # in the morning, but there you'll SEE Isabel on an Iberian.

;)

[jdeboer01]

Is it a competition photo?

[mzm farm]

She is a weanling in the clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQuBKjJ_oJo&feature=channel_page

I think she is a pretty good cross and preserves the best of both parents. Temperament is a tempered baroque - willing, smart, not a horse you are going to "make" do stuff but very willing to think about it, figure it out and give you what you want, you just can't bully her into it like some other breeds I have worked with. Her mom is same, a little more "fight" in her but very willing and sensible, super sensitive to aids, no bucking no rearing no bolting, but you definitely know when you have crossed the line.

My exp. with baroque horses is fairly limited, so this is from a sample of 1.5 plus observing lots of Lippis.

[Calliope]

I agree that Iberian horses tend not to display the same ability for extension that Warmbloods do. They tend to show more ability for collection.

Of course, these are generalisations, and not specific to every horse in either breed.

It doesn't mean that the Iberian horse doesn't have a place in modern dressage / dressage competition, either. It probably means that individual horses (and therefore the 'breed') will have less 'success' in competition until they reach the upper levels - assuming the rider has the skills and talent to get there in the first place.

I imagine that the Iberian breeds suffer just as much from not having enough talented &/or dedicated riders to get the horses 'to the top' as the WBs do.

I did a quick google search for some PRE stallions; I don't think they are showing 'sewing machine' movement.


http://www.extremadurapre.com/web/contenido/04socios/fichas/144dhcabezarubia/fotos/tarugo.jpg


http://www.ancce.es/panelc_apw/spaw/uploads/images/fuego-odense.jpg

http://www.topiberian.es/files/noticias/guardadamas1CMYK.jpg


http://www.elpre.com/media/fotos/brcxopkl.jpg

[JMurray]

http://www.elpre.com/media/fotos/brcxopkl.jpg

In the above link that Calliope posted (thankyou by the way! great photos).

Explain for me what looks like a hyper extension of the front leg starting from the shoulder.

What is causing it

Is it good, bad?

How would you prevent it?


I am hoping for some thoughtful answers that well help me with this. I never know when I see it if it is not desired or it is.

thanks!

[nlk]

Andalusians and Lusitanos when breed and broke correctly are the what the dressage horse is. They were the original ones that were used in baroque dressage. There are some lines out there there that move "like sewing machines on speed" like one of the first posters said but that is not the majority.

The reason that they are not more popular in dressage (at least here in U.S. and most European countries (and forgive me if I'm repeating here I didn't read the whole thread)) is that they are rare and until recently they were very hard to find in the U.S. also in a lot of Europe they have their own breeds that they use.

As far as what an Andalusians temperment is I haven't worked with a more beautiful minded horse (I have handled most breeds in my line of work). They have an amazing work ethic are for the most part smooth and easy to ride (there are some lines and horse out there that are not just like every breed) they have natural push from behind and natural extension through the shoulder which makes it easy for them to preform to the high levels of competition.

They are smaller then your typical WB (obviously) which is another reason I believe that they are not more popular. in face of the WB revolution they don't quit measure up.

Also consider that Andalusians, Lusitanos, and Lipazzans all come from the same lines and are generally the same breed. They are from different parts of the Iberian peninsula but you will find that they are all PRE horses.

With this in mind the highest level of dressage riding is the Spanish Riding School and what do they use and train as their mounts?

If you're interested in some lines and breeders feel free to contact me!

[nlk]

Oh and to the comment about Spanish riders using their national horses in competition I will have to look back but at least one Spanish rider medaled on an adalusian in one of the recent Olympics! Again I will have to check the year.

[Ajierene]

I find it interesting that you mention the great temperment of the baroque horses. In my search for a stallion to breed my mare to, I found that all Andalusions were listed as being 'very tempermental', or close to it, on the temperment scale. I am looking for a stallion with a great temperment and get the impression a bad temperment is something that these types of horses have and pass on.

Perhaps it is like the Arabians, where intelligence is often mistaken with bad temperment? I am not willing to find out through a first foal, though.

[MistyBlue]

A "temperamental" Andie probably isn't going to be like a temperamental other breed. Most male Andies are kept stallions...if they were difficult or temperamental they'd be mostly gelded. :winkgrin: Even ones not used for breeding are kept intact as often as they're gelded due to the easy temperaments and work ethics they have. I was looking for an Andie or Lusitano for a while...I had the hardest darned time finding geldings. Or mares for that matter. Mares aren't considered riding horses in many of the countries that have a lot of Andie/Lusi breeding farms. I got laughed at a few times inquiring about mares for riding when calling places in Brazil, LOL!
Lusitanos are supposedly a bit more "hot" than Andies in general, more bold is how a few breeders termed it.
But I've known a handful or two of Andies and every single one has had one solid brain on it. Nothing I'd call even remotely temperamental...the ones I knew/know make the average QH seem flighty. :winkgrin:

[pintopiaffe]

Leviton and Evento have both made it to the Olympics, I'd say that's 'top competition.' There certainly are more, (a British rider was doing GP for a long time on an Iberian) those are just the two I recall off the top of my head.

Relempago went to Beijing for Austrailia, his sire, Luar, was the first Lusitano to go to the Pan Ams.

They're not everyone's cuppa, but neither are WBs. I'm not saying Baroques are The Way, The Truth and the Only Way To GP... why does it have to work in reverse??? Wb's aren't always either. Sometimes a little Connemara cross is. <shrugs>

[nlk]

I find it interesting that you mention the great temperment of the baroque horses. In my search for a stallion to breed my mare to, I found that all Andalusions were listed as being 'very tempermental', or close to it, on the temperment scale. I am looking for a stallion with a great temperment and get the impression a bad temperment is something that these types of horses have and pass on.

Perhaps it is like the Arabians, where intelligence is often mistaken with bad temperment? I am not willing to find out through a first foal, though.

WOW! I must say that I have trained them and dealt with a lot of different breeders and owners during that time and NO one ever said anything like that! In fact I have never heard another train who has worked with them speak bad of them either.

I find that they are nothing like Arabians (I have dealt with them too!). Intelligent yes but not temperamental on a general scale. I do know one line in particular that could be called that. The sire was originally a touring lipizzan stallion when the owner bought him and he was not one to "Man handle" because he would give you hell if you did, and all his off spring were like this as well, confrontational to bad handling but if you handled them like every other horse in the barn they were fine (some of the staff felt they needed to beat the horses in to submission that stopped when I was there and I never had another problem The owner didn't realize what was happening!) I never had a problem with any of these horses! I think there are lines like that in every breed though!

They love to please anything you ask of them they try. If you ever decide to give it a try I know some great lines!

Honestly my goal is to have one, one day for a sport horse and a stallion to boot I feel in love with them!

[nlk]

A "temperamental" Andie probably isn't going to be like a temperamental other breed. Most male Andies are kept stallions...if they were difficult or temperamental they'd be mostly gelded. :winkgrin: Even ones not used for breeding are kept intact as often as they're gelded due to the easy temperaments and work ethics they have. I was looking for an Andie or Lusitano for a while...I had the hardest darned time finding geldings. Or mares for that matter. Mares aren't considered riding horses in many of the countries that have a lot of Andie/Lusi breeding farms. I got laughed at a few times inquiring about mares for riding when calling places in Brazil, LOL!
Lusitanos are supposedly a bit more "hot" than Andies in general, more bold is how a few breeders termed it.
But I've known a handful or two of Andies and every single one has had one solid brain on it. Nothing I'd call even remotely temperamental...the ones I knew/know make the average QH seem flighty. :winkgrin:

AMEN to that! another reason the are kept as stallions is that they are a rare breed, so many people don't want to geld them for that reason alone! that and tey are so easy to handle!

[sbp]

I have been reading this thread with interest, as I bought an Andalusian weanling last year as my next dressage horse.... I searched for nearly a year before coming acrossed the 'one'. I looked at many, many Andys and Lusatanos, studied pedigrees, and talked with numerous breeders before buying my filly. We saw some Andys that were not good dressage prospects, but the majority were lovely, kind, and quiet horses, with amazing presence.
My girl is bred on both sides to Leviton, and has wonderful movement for dressage.... here are a couple pics of Valencia KDW http://www.adonaiequestrian.com/mares_of_adonai.htm She is almost 18 months old now, and going thru some growth spurts;) I hope to get some pics of her soon Here is video of her sire, Heroe MAC http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJud1A75ZE0

I have bred warmbloods for many years, and my heart horse is a warmblood, but there is something about the Andys.... I just love my Valencia--she is smart and attentive, a real person horse, and as sensible as any horse I have ever handled or bred. She is a keeper!

I have to agree that you don't see too many Andys on the east coast---yet---I hope to change that!
Susan

[Merche2]

First of all, I have to say I am very partial to breed (we come from the same country!) :D:D

I have had the pleasure to ride other breeds, including WB, TB, QH, etc, as a matter of fact, I own a QH Stallion that is the love of my life! So, without the patriotic pride of the breed, it is my experience that they are very level headed horses, with wonderful temperaments and just plain fun. My mare, she can be a handful but I don't think is because of the breed, I think is because she is just that... a mare!!! God Bless those mares! They sure can either make you a better rider or make you pick up tennis instead! :o
And when I say she can be a handful, I don't mean it in a way of being dangerous, she is just opinionated. She is not spooky, she is bold, willing (when she is not pmsy) and extremely intelligent (sometimes... that can be a problem LOL)
Anyways, I do agree with some of the post that any breed is going to have good and bad horses, it doesn't matter. You can make a generalization of any breed but there will always be exceptions!

Now be aware, Andalusians are just like potato chips, you cannot just have one! For me, there is not turning back!:winkgrin:

[Marengo]

Since a few individuals have shown that Andies/Lusos can compete at the Olympic level I guess that means that the breed generally has what it takes to compete and win. Does anyone think that they are going to be the next fad after WBs? Are we about to see a whole bunch of unscrupulous Andie breeders selling dressage prospects all over North America in the next decade? Somehow I think not but I'm not sure why. One thing I've noticed is that I hardly ever see Andies/Luso's for sale if they're not weanlings or expensive proven stallions. Either they're just really rare or they bond with their owners such that they get lifetime homes and are never sold.

I wonder if the British rider mentioned (who competed with two Andalusian stallions) is Patricia Findlay. I had the opportunity to meet her long after she'd retired from competition, I know she also trained with Nuno Oliveira in Belgium and other places. I love the look of the two weanlings shared in this thread as well.

[slc2]

Warmbloods aren't a fad.

[FleetwoodStarr]

Also consider that Andalusians, Lusitanos, and Lipazzans all come from the same lines and are generally the same breed. They are from different parts of the Iberian peninsula but you will find that they are all PRE horses.

With this in mind the highest level of dressage riding is the Spanish Riding School and what do they use and train as their mounts?

If you're interested in some lines and breeders feel free to contact me!


I don't know if I would classify andalusians, lusitanos and lippies as the same breed. :eek::confused: The lippizan breed was heavily influenced by Spanish horses, native horses, and arabians. They may have a similar body type, but being a lippy owner on a spanish horse breeding farm, I can assure you they aren't the same breed. How is a horse breed developed in Eastern Europe a pure spanish horse? And how is the portuguese Lusitano a pure spanish horse? I believe that most spanish breeders and portuguese breeders are driven crazy by having their carefully bred horses grouped into one breed.

[jdeboer01]

I don't know if I would classify andalusians, lusitanos and lippies as the same breed. :eek::confused: ................................... And how is the portuguese Lusitano a pure spanish horse? I believe that most spanish breeders and portuguese breeders are driven crazy by having their carefully bred horses grouped into one breed.

I grabbed this off of a breeders' website, but if you google "Andalusian Lusitano separate registries" you'll get many different hits verifying the info.

" Originally both Portugal and Spain used the same Stud Book, however a political rift between the two country's occurred in the 1960's and so Spain and Portugal parted ways thus creating two different stud books. The Andalusian of Portugal was then named Lusitano or PSL meaning Pura Sangue Lusitano. In Spain Pura Raza Espanola or PRE, meaning Pure Spanish Horse. Before this rift happened they were all Andalusians. Up until a few years ago the Portuguese used Spanish horses in their breeding programs and may still do. The description and breed characteristics are virtually the same between Andalusian and Lusitano. The Andalusian follows military bloodlines and the Lusitano follows more bullfighting bloodlines (even though they are both used for bullfighting but predominately the Portugal bloodlines are used). "

Lipazzans are likely related in blood, but because they were separated so far geographically, the blood was surely diluted with local stock.

[FleetwoodStarr]

I grabbed this off of a breeders' website, but if you google "Andalusian Lusitano separate registries" you'll get many different hits verifying the info.

" Originally both Portugal and Spain used the same Stud Book, however a political rift between the two country's occurred in the 1960's and so Spain and Portugal parted ways thus creating two different stud books. The Andalusian of Portugal was then named Lusitano or PSL meaning Pura Sangue Lusitano. In Spain Pura Raza Espanola or PRE, meaning Pure Spanish Horse. Before this rift happened they were all Andalusians. Up until a few years ago the Portuguese used Spanish horses in their breeding programs and may still do. The description and breed characteristics are virtually the same between Andalusian and Lusitano. The Andalusian follows military bloodlines and the Lusitano follows more bullfighting bloodlines (even though they are both used for bullfighting but predominately the Portugal bloodlines are used). "

Lipazzans are likely related in blood, but because they were separated so far geographically, the blood was surely diluted with local stock.

I wasn't saying that spanish horses, lusitanos and lippies weren't closely related, I was just saying that they were not all pure spanish horses. I would also like to point out that a lot can change in a breed in nearly fifty years (look at the warmblood!) and I think it is fair to say they have moved past

If you look at my post regarding the lippizans, you will see I said that they were a cross of spanish stallions, arabians, and local horses.

[San Miranda]

I have competed successfully at G.P. on an Andalusian stallion called Bambury Sanchez imported into Australia from the US.

I am training my present Andy (PRE) stallion to G.P level.

I have bred a Andy warmblood cross out of a Jazz mare. He is 3 years old and black and will get to 17hh and his owner loves him. He has a fantastic temperment and huge movement.

I will be breeding Andy/hanoverian crosses by my stallion Shibumi out of Wienna. You can see them both on my youtube clip and if you want photos I can e-mail them to you.

[Marengo]

I definitely would like to see your Andi/Hanno crosses, please send me the link by PM. I know I'm in the same part of the world as you but its not close enough. I think the Baroque horses, however you define them, have so much to offer to dressage. Its great to hear that some people are using them in breeding programs. Has anyone ever owned or bred a Andi(or Luso)/TB cross? I imagine the TB could take down the animated movement a bit, would that type of horse make a nice Hunter or far from it?

[JMurray]

If you look at my post regarding the lippizans, you will see I said that they were a cross of spanish stallions, arabians, and local horses.

Just to say that my understanding about this crossing is that it happened hundreds of years ago for the Lipizzans and their studbook has been closed for eons. Anyone here more knowledgeable about that..do I have that right?

I would be interested to know if the same is true about Andalusian and Lusitano studbook and origination? Please understand my knowledge about all this is very recent as I have only been Lipizzan shopping since this past October, so am learning as I go.

[FriesianX]

Fleetwood, no one here thinks the Baroque breeds are all a single breed - even the PRE people will correct us and point out Andalusian and PRE are NOT the same thing, just because a horse is Andalusian doesn't mean it is PRE! But Baroque is used to generically bundle several different breeds together, just as Warmblood is used to bundle several different breeds and types together. I realize more of the Warmbloods cross lines back and forth in VERY recent times (like Oldenburg and Hannoverian are almost identical in their bloodlines), but then we also group Trakehner and Dutch horses and Selle Francias into the WB category - and they are distinctly different.

By the way, no one has mentioned Rociero or Invasor as recent international competitors???

Marengo - I have seen a couple of Andy/Tbred crosses. Interestingly, they were very difficult temperments, very hot and sensitive - true professional's horses, but both were also VERY athletic and supple. Neither went far in the show world due to their temperments - perhaps in the right hands, they would have done better.

[MistyBlue]

One thing I've noticed is that I hardly ever see Andies/Luso's for sale if they're not weanlings or expensive proven stallions. Either they're just really rare or they bond with their owners such that they get lifetime homes and are never sold.

In the USA finding Andies or Lusitanos of riding age that aren't top breeding/competition stallions isn't easy. Especially on the East coast. Once in a while there's one available through Casa Lusitana in MA.
They are on the rare side around here, but there's also the issue that private owners rarely ever sell them. Breeders sell them as weanlings to private owners and they stay with that owner for good most of the time. And the registries for both Andies and Lusitanos will take those breeds back if the owner can no longer care for them.
However in other countries like Brazil they can be found much more easily. They're more abundant down there. Bred for either dressage or ranch work or sport horses. They can be quite decent jumpers. Not hunters though...the movement is all wrong.

My mother had an Andie x QH gelding years ago. Nowadays they call those Aztecas but I think there's more to Aztecas than just being 50/50 Andie and QH. He was a really nice horse...that 15.2hh bugger could jump the moon and was bold as heck to fences.

[jdeboer01]

I wasn't saying that spanish horses, lusitanos and lippies weren't closely related, I was just saying that they were not all pure spanish horses.

That's letting the registry define the breed. I think it's much less confusing to think of the horses originating from the Iberian Peninsula as just that -- Iberians. (the term "baroque" is WAY to arbitrary. When people start describing any horse thats hairy, and looks good in Renaissance costume "baroque" it loses any solid definition.) They all are descendant from the same indigenous stock, have identical "breed standards", and apparently still utilize each others stallions. To me that makes them pretty much the same thing. If one can only think of a horse being PRE if it is born in Spain, and registered PRE, then what about the PRE's being bred all over the world that are recognized by the main studbook? http://www.dressagedaily.com/2008/dd_200806/dd_20080612-uspre.html
Friesians have two sizable registries. The Dutch and the German. They are however, the same horse -- descended from the same stock and have closed studbooks.


I would also like to point out that a lot can change in a breed in nearly fifty years (look at the warmblood!) and I think it is fair to say they have moved past

Sure, the Warmbloods have changed dramatically over a 50 year time span. But all of those registries have an open studbook policy. Change happens much faster and dramatically when choice of breeding stock is not tethered to a single studbook.

[jdeboer01]

I have competed successfully at G.P. on an Andalusian stallion called Bambury Sanchez imported into Australia from the US.

I am training my present Andy (PRE) stallion to G.P level.

I have bred a Andy warmblood cross out of a Jazz mare. He is 3 years old and black and will get to 17hh and his owner loves him. He has a fantastic temperment and huge movement.

I will be breeding Andy/hanoverian crosses by my stallion Shibumi out of Wienna. You can see them both on my youtube clip and if you want photos I can e-mail them to you.

Good Lord, your mare Wienna is utterly breathtaking! Were you in the video of the auction?

I'd love to see more video of your stallion Shibumi. How long have you owned him?

Any pics of the Andie x Jazz baby? Who's the daddy?

Gorgeous!

J

[Calliope]

The Spanish stud book was amalgamated in 1912, with a royal order on January 13th creating the Registro Matricula de Caballos y Yeguas de Pura Raza Española, giving rise to the Pura Raza Española. In 1967 the Portuguese stud book was amalgamated, creating the Livro Genealogico Portugues de Equinos and giving rise to the Cavalo Puro Sangue Lusitano.

Whilst these horses share a common ancestry, and many horses in both stud books share the same ancestors, the two stud books are now separate and closed.

In Spain, the name was changed to PRE to avoid misinterpretations and the politics associated with the term 'Andalusian' - not that the problem has been solved in the last 97 years ;).

PREs do not have to be bred in Spain; as long as foals meet the Stud Book requirements (parental registration, breeding approval, DNA testing etc) they can be registered in Spain.


From the 515 horses on the 2008 FEI dressage horse ranking list, there are ca. 9 PREs and 13 PSLs (1.7% & 2.5% of the total, respectively) - the majority are german or dutch warmbloods (with a few swedish & eastern european WBs).

In the top 100 horses, there are 3 PREs (38th, 86th & 89th) & two PSLs (92nd & 93rd).

Because I enjoy abusing statistics :winkgrin:, I conclude that that is not a bad effort.


Performance information is becoming more readily from Spain IMO, and frozen semen is more easily available - both of which are helpful for overseas breeders. PREs and PSLs are not to everyone's taste - why should they be? - but they do have a legitimate place in dressage.

[MistyBlue]

Agreed, Wienna is lovely!

[pintopiaffe]

Somewhere in the USDF, the term Baroque is defined as a type of movement. When they do the seminars on Sporthorse Judging/movement, there are three categories, "WB, Baroque, and TB" they might now call TB hunter. But they very clearly define the differences in body shape and type and movement.

Any breed can have a horse of baroque type--the body will be more square than rectangular. The back is often flat, and short coupled, the neck is set on quite high. The movement tends to have more knee and hock action and is described as 'round', having more height and less forward movement.

Morgans, Arabs, some QH and APHA, even some WBs can be more 'baroque' in their build and movement. The shape and movement that comes to mind is that of the Iberian and Lippizan, though SOME Friesians also fit into this type. Not all. Some are coach horses. ;)

Some Andalusians these days can pass for WB. There are quite a few who are 17h and not very round movers at all. They're not my cuppa, and I don't think they're doing the breed any service. That is strictly my opinion.

[FleetwoodStarr]

Fleetwood, no one here thinks the Baroque breeds are all a single breed - even the PRE people will correct us and point out Andalusian and PRE are NOT the same thing, just because a horse is Andalusian doesn't mean it is PRE! But Baroque is used to generically bundle several different breeds together, just as Warmblood is used to bundle several different breeds and types together. I realize more of the Warmbloods cross lines back and forth in VERY recent times (like Oldenburg and Hannoverian are almost identical in their bloodlines), but then we also group Trakehner and Dutch horses and Selle Francias into the WB category - and they are distinctly different.

.

I know that these breeds are generally called baroque, I was just responding directly to the person who said that the three breed were generall the same Breed, that they were all from the Iberian peninsula, and that they were all pure spanish horses. Since I don't seem to be expressing myself very clearly in this thread I would like to clarify that I'm agreeing with you :)

jdboer- I'm aware you can breed spanish horses outside of spain :) I agree with everything you say I was just trying to say that that all portuguese horses are not pure spanish horses (eligible for the registry). Hell all horse bred in spain are not necessarily allowed to register with the PRE registry.
ps- Good point about the open studbooks in the warmbloods

As to the lippies- I was trying to say that while they were influenced in the beginning by the spanish horses they aren't spanish horses.
Jmurrey: Yes for the most part they have kept the stud book fairly tight, although Piber was discussing bringing in a spanish stallion a few years ago (I don't know if that ever happened).

[horsegalriding]

I have a PRE stallion who is doing quite well in dressage. My guy is very level headed, but not all of them are. He just mopped up this year in musical freestyle. Go on YouTube and enter his name - Teodoro's Hechizo to see his freestyle. We have an 8 month old newly gelded youngster out of a nice TB mare who is really going to be really special. I think this kind of cross could make a wonderful dressage partner.

[Paula]

As an equine photographer who works a lot in California and Florida I see a lot of Lusitanos and Andis. There are really quite a few really nice ones out there now. I think the bigger problem than the sewing machine gaits (which you don't see much IMHO) is that quite a few of them do really wing or paddle quite a bit. This isn't seen as much in a side shot, but if you see them coming down the center line towards you it can be quite striking. That said, there are some extremely nice PRE's and Lusitanos here in the states that are working at all levels. Here are just a few pictures that I have taken in the last couple of months http://web.sendtoprint.net/proofbook/login.asp use the keyword PRE - there are a few galleries if you look under categories. I could put tons more pictures up of some nice moving horses.

[slc2]

Winging out or paddling like Andalusians and Lusitanos do is not a problem in dressage and isn't (and shouldn't be) marked down.

[Paula]

Well I don't ride at the upper levels myself but I've spoken to several well respected riders and trainers who do, and what they tell me is that the winging and paddling does cause problems in the upper level lateral work. It tends to be worse for andi's and lusitanos because they also have more knee action than wb's who can also show these lateral diversions (heck my own fjord pony paddles terribly :). So while yes it is not marked down per sey, it effects the quality of some of the work. Therefore certain types who move more correctly are better prospects for riders with higher level long range goals.

The other neat thing is I have seen some really neat big PRE's lately - in the 17 h range that still retain breed type. I will have to drag out some of the photos of some of these nice youngsters that are getting imported. I think one key thing is getting them imported without the early spanish training if you can. That ups your odds on getting a correct horse for dressage. The recent shots I did at the beach that is in the link I posted with a PRE stallion was so much fun - that stallion was the biggest ham ;) He just knew he was there to be admired and loved showing off. He is a PRE stallion currently showing at Grand Prix. And I didn't include pictures in this group but he has an up and coming youg stallion so who is an incredibly hot looking yearling that is going to be something else in a few years. He has a bit more brio than dad and is sixteen hands already as a yearly. Absolutley drop dead gorgeous! Can't wait to see that boy started in a few years...

[San Miranda]

Good Lord, your mare Wienna is utterly breathtaking! Were you in the video of the auction?

I'd love to see more video of your stallion Shibumi. How long have you owned him?

Any pics of the Andie x Jazz baby? Who's the daddy?

Gorgeous!

J

Thank you for your comments. I feel very blessed to be owned by Wienna :)

No It is not me riding her in the auction. That was in 1999 and I bought her in 2006 and have just imported her and her Leonardo Da Vinci foal, San Miranda Mona Lisa into Australia.

I bred, broke and trained Shibumi and am now working on 1 time flying changes. He is doing 4 in a row and is very proud of himself.

You are welcome to view my photos at
http://s416.photobucket.com/albums/pp243/sanmiranda/?start=0

I am doing a dressage to music display with Shibumi in march and hope to video it and will put it up on you tube.