Tell me about HSUS and horse sports

[eventamy]

From everything I've always understood HSUS is an animal rights organization. What is their policy on horse sports? Were they the ones boycotting/rallying against eventing too or was it just PETA?

[eventamy]

Anybody? I couldn't find much on this during a quick search last night.

[JSwan]

You won't see much direct evidence of anything. But rest assured they're there.

PETA like to run around naked and shout "Murderer" all the time and collect money. They target youth.

HSUS is PETA in a Brooks Brothers suit. They have a more palatable image - which is very carefully cultivated and marketed.

They sent "observers" to the Olympics to make sure no horses were abused.:confused:

They love to come in on high profile sexy issues. They sweep in and conduct a few press conferences, some interviews, and then sweep back out - counting the money they made and leaving a mess behind for real animal welfare advocates to clean up. Don't get me started on Katrina.

There, I've said it. If you're interested in donating money for animal welfare I'd suggest maybe the ASPCA... they're a bit more moderate.

[Jaegermonster]

Don't let HSUS fool you. They are just as whacko as PETA but they hide it better.
In all fairness, they have provided me with quite a bit of training in Animal Investigations, and they also paid the shelter costs, and helped with the Michael Vick investigation. They will send a raid team anywhere in the country at the drop of a hat to help with big investigations like that, puppy mills, hoarders, horse farms whatever, all you have to do is ask in an official capacity (police or something like that). But they are still very radical and have a very radical agenda that they try to hide.
I as well only donate to my local area humane society. I prefer to keep my money local, that way I know where it goes.

www.mfha.org has some good links to some of what HSUS tries to hide.

[JSwan]

Jaeger -

That's very interesting. My step sister is a VA state trooper and was active in the Vick investigation. Her experience is much different than yours. Isn't that interesting?

Then there's the case.... I think in LA... where HSUS obtained a helicopter from Homeland Security and conducted a "raid", seizing a whole bunch of pit bulls.

Unfortunately every single animal was put down immediately - including puppies.

Even more unfortunate was that the defendant was... geez.... I don't remember. Either acquitted or charges were dropped due to lack of evidence. But all his dogs are dead.

HSUS disappeared after the raid - did not assist with the dogs or cared what happened to them. I think they did get plenty of photos of their staff in the helicopter though.

[Jaegermonster]

Don't get me wrong JSwan , I'm not defending them, but I can give them credit where credit is due.
They did front the majority of the costs for the care of those dogs while they were being held at various locations and also while they were being fostered. And they have helped me a great deal with many of my investigations, by sending raid teams and investigators to help us collect evidence and document things and to confiscate and house all the dogs since our shelter did not have enough room.

I am also aware of what happened at Katrina and the many other times they have shown their true colors. I am well aware that they are a wolf in sheeps clothing.

I think HSUS and PETA are the devil incarnate and would never give them one red cent. I wouldn't piss on Wayne Pacelle if he were on fire.

But I also have no problem using what they offer if it will benefit me while I am conducting an investigation and trying to make a difference for animals in my town. They provided me with a lot of free training that greatly helped my credibility and clout with the local state attorney's office and also within my own dept while I was trying to start our animal investigations unit, all of which have allowed me to help and save an untold number of animals.

[JSwan]

No worries - I didn't think you were (not that you need my permission or approval!)

I was just thinking that her experience was much different. Of course, that investigation was pretty high profile in terms of publicity - maybe that's why.

Years ago I volunteered for a wildlife rehab hotline. I didn't rehab any animals - just manned the hotline and helped people deal with problem/injured wildlife through referrals or matching them to the right rehabber. Also answered a lot of questions. Our "bible" was a book published by HSUS on dealing with wildlife. There was nothing unique about the book in terms of new or update information, but it was nice to have information on so many species in one place.

They do have some good publications. Hopefully your jurisdiction isn't interested in turning over law enforcement or investigative authority to volunteer groups working with HSUS.

Some of the laws that have been passed, and the contracting/privatization of government responsibilities has just been plain scary.

Good luck with your work!:)



Don't get me wrong JSwan , I'm not defending them, but I can give them credit where credit is due.

[eventamy]

I'm not thinking about contributing to them, in fact I despise them as much as I do PETA. It's just very difficult to find evidence to convince others how evil they are because of the "good" they seem to do.
I was discussing PETA on another forum and was slammed for dissing HSUS, and when I went to defend what I had said couldn't find the website where I had gotten the information. There's been a lot of discussion on FOL in the past, but again, hard to find the info to back up what I've said!
I also keep my money local, and have even returned letters from HSUS begging for money saying I would never contribute to them with "misnomer" written on the envelope. Humane Society my butt!

[horsecrazy]

HSUS member here. I did some research on their website and...

The only horse sport I see them publicly coming out against are rodeo sports. Not barrel racing, but bronc busting, etc. Unlike PETA (this is for you JSwan and Jaegermonster), they don't comdemn horse racing, and in fact have worked with officials in the horse racing and eventing industries to try to make the sports safer. I don't think it's fair to lump the names of HSUS and PETA together like this. For that matter, what do you all think about AWI (Animal Welfare Institute)? American Humane? Or do we just want to pick on the big orgs?

I think that HSUS shares the same sentiment of a lot of us here, including myself - that many equine "sports" can be dangerous, but if precautions are taken to make them safer for the horses and humans involved, that is always a good thing. Driving my car can be dangerous, but that doesn't mean I'm living my life in a hole and never going anywhere. I put on my seat belt and drive (um relatively!) safely.

I'm a hunter princess myself, but I've heard really promising things about frangible pins and other eventing advances. I love watching horse racing, and I'm glad that the industry is willing to work with animal welfare orgs to make the sport safer - I'd hate to cut my ties but will if they don't make some serious changes soon. But I'm not protesting at races like PETA or publicly harassing Gabriel Saez (jockey for Eight Belles) b/c I don't think he didn't anything wrong. I recognize that using a crop is part of horse racing. I think there are good people in the sport, and there are bad. You can say that about pleasure riding too.

I've also heard HSUS come out against the Omak Suicide race (google it) and I believe that although it's not one of their main campaigns, that they oppose using carriage horses for tourist activities in big cities.

As far as PETA, I don't know if they are against any specific sports, but I believe they don't like racing and are also opposed to rodeos.

[cowgirljenn]

Don't let HSUS fool you. They are just as whacko as PETA but they hide it better.
In all fairness, they have provided me with quite a bit of training in Animal Investigations, and they also paid the shelter costs, and helped with the Michael Vick investigation. They will send a raid team anywhere in the country at the drop of a hat to help with big investigations like that, puppy mills, hoarders, horse farms whatever, all you have to do is ask in an official capacity (police or something like that). But they are still very radical and have a very radical agenda that they try to hide.
I as well only donate to my local area humane society. I prefer to keep my money local, that way I know where it goes.

www.mfha.org (http://www.mfha.org) has some good links to some of what HSUS tries to hide.

I got a very bad taste in my mouth from them last year. There were a group of horses in Texas who needed to get into a rescue. The owners were older, their fences were bad, horses kept getting out and getting killed on the road. Owners agreed to surrender the horses but there were a bunch and many had not ever been handled. We (BEHS) were the first rescue on the scene but another rescue ended up being in charge (because that was the org. the county always worked with). We were prepared to take most of the horses if needed and ended up with a bunch.

BUT while we were working on this, I got a snotty message from the HSUS. They were criticizing the rescues in Texas for not stepping up and taking these horses in and chastising us all. NOW we WERE taking the horses in and the HSUS weren't helping one dang bit. But they sure felt comfortable criticising others. I didn't appreciate it...

I've been involved in a lot of seizures and a lot of neglect cases, and not once has HSUS been any help.

I did have one seizure that PETA got a hold of. We already had the animals, but they did a press release, sent it all over the world, made it look like they were involved and probably got $$ because of it. Did they contribute a dime to help the horses? Nope. In fact, all they did was make the county mad. Nice work.

[Jaegermonster]

HSUS member here. I did some research on their website and...

The only horse sport I see them publicly coming out against are rodeo sports. Not barrel racing, but bronc busting, etc. Unlike PETA (this is for you JSwan and Jaegermonster), they don't comdemn horse racing, and in fact have worked with officials in the horse racing and eventing industries to try to make the sports safer. I don't think it's fair to lump the names of HSUS and PETA together like this. For that matter, what do you all think about AWI (Animal Welfare Institute)? American Humane? Or do we just want to pick on the big orgs?

I think that HSUS shares the same sentiment of a lot of us here, including myself - that many equine "sports" can be dangerous, but if precautions are taken to make them safer for the horses and humans involved, that is always a good thing. Driving my car can be dangerous, but that doesn't mean I'm living my life in a hole and never going anywhere. I put on my seat belt and drive (um relatively!) safely.

I'm a hunter princess myself, but I've heard really promising things about frangible pins and other eventing advances. I love watching horse racing, and I'm glad that the industry is willing to work with animal welfare orgs to make the sport safer - I'd hate to cut my ties but will if they don't make some serious changes soon. But I'm not protesting at races like PETA or publicly harassing Gabriel Saez (jockey for Eight Belles) b/c I don't think he didn't anything wrong. I recognize that using a crop is part of horse racing. I think there are good people in the sport, and there are bad. You can say that about pleasure riding too.

I've also heard HSUS come out against the Omak Suicide race (google it) and I believe that although it's not one of their main campaigns, that they oppose using carriage horses for tourist activities in big cities.

As far as PETA, I don't know if they are against any specific sports, but I believe they don't like racing and are also opposed to rodeos.

Of course research on their website is going to make them look good. Duh.
HSUS is notorious for coming out on hotbutton issues that are very much in the public eye (like the suicide race) which is great. It's their day to day and behind the scenes stuff that is kind of scary.

And JSwan, I know there were a lot of problems with the Michael Vick case on the local and state level due to the good ol boy syndrome, it was once the feds stepped in that things started to happen. So not knowing which tier your sister in law was involved in, I know you said she was state, it's hard to say. But at least that POS got busted, they took the dogs, and that case alone did so much for the fight against dogfighting than all the years of hard work.

As far as jurisdiction, I'm pretty much it in my area as far as the animals. Our local Humane Society has a civilian investigator but they really have no investigative powers and no arrest authority etc. She gets with me and I run with it. Once I get it I keep it and make the arrests etc. I have no problem with taking what these agencies (HSUS, etc) will give me but I'm not giving it up to them.
My bottom line is the animals so if I have to deal with the devil sometimes to get it done, fine, but I still think they suck.

again, for some of the rest of you, rwww.mfha.org has some great links to stuff about PETA and HSUS that those agencies don't want you to see. check it out

[JSwan]

HSUS member here. I did some research on their website and...



You know HSUS through their website.

I know HSUS from direct interaction with them, and being on the receiving end of their "campaigns".

What an organization says it is doing and what it actually does are two separate things. HSUS has great marketing people.

They're great at getting press attention. They find a high profile issue and then get the press, issue press releases, and then leave without having helped a single animal - or given help to the people left behind to care for the animals.

Even state animal rights groups have been displeased when HSUS has stepped in to "help". The local group thinks HSUS is going to stay around or assist in some fashion.. but nope. After the votes are counted and the cameras are gone.... so is HSUS. A lot richer.

Think what you want. I used to be a member too. Now - no way in hell. I've seen them in action and it's appalling.


Jaegermonster - you seem to know a lot about the Vick case so you know the county is a bit of a mess. My step sister was one of the troopers brought in from other areas to assist in the investigation. She also no longer donates to HSUS. After Katrina, my mother also stopped donating to HSUS (she participated in dog rescues). She never believed what I told her about HSUS until she saw it for herself.

I don't think HSUS misses our support one bit, since they seem to have more money than the federal government. It's a giant marketing self perpetuating moneymaking machine. An animal rights Enron. There's no substance to it. Not anymore...

[Jaegermonster]

I do know quite a bit about that case, through various sources and means. One of the folks that Vick was affiliated with and dealing dogs with is in my area and is someone I was investigating at that time. He has since been arrested and we got 114 dogs out of his yard.

but anyway, HSUS gets a ton of $$ from people who see the cute mailings with puppies and kitties and they think that HSUS is somehow affiliated with their local humane society, which couldn't be further from the truth.
HSUS runs no shelters, no kennels, no rescues. They will, however, jump right in for the photo op, and throw money at a case in the public eye, like housing Michael Vicks' dogs.

They are primarily a lobbying group and their agenda is way out there and very radical. I remember a few years ago when they got a bunch of dogs from a rescue/shelter somewehre on the east coast that they were going to "place" but instead they EU'd all of them in the van as they were driving away and were seen by citizens dumping the bodies in a dumpster.


HSUS is really something else.

I think the ASPCA is a reputable organization and they do the right thing. But it amazes me how many people don't realize they are not in every community. We don't have a shelter or even a chapter of the ASPCA in our area and we are a major metropolitan city. We are fortunate enough to have a good humane society and good city run Animal Control but it would be great to have the ASPCA too. Sometimes i feel like a hamster on a wheel trying to do animal work, but every once in a while I get to make a difference.


It cracks me up when someone says they are a "member" of the HSUS. yeah, I sent my $25 to the USET last year, I'm a member. Whoohoo.

[horsecrazy]

You know HSUS through their website.

I know HSUS from direct interaction with them, and being on the receiving end of their "campaigns".

1. Don't assume. Your first statement is actually laughable to me. I've worked with HSUS in a professional sense (I work in the horse welfare industry), I know (as in first name basis) and respect a lot of people there. I referred to their website because the OP had a question about which horse sports HSUS frowned upon, and their website provided that info that I didn't know offhand. As a reminder, THAT was the original topic, though as usual you've turned it into a bashing.

2. So what type of "interaction" have you had with them? Since I apparently only know what I know about HSUS through the internet :rolleyes: maybe you can elaborate on your direction interaction and just why you hate dealing with them so much?

HSUS runs no shelters, no kennels, no rescues.

Again, might want to do some research here - in particular try looking up the Black Beauty Sanctuary and the Duchess Sanctuary - both developed by HSUS.

Jaeger, I admire your work with Vick's dogs, but really with the low blow b/c I said I'm an HSUS member? Really? You don't know how much I contribute, and even more important, the animal activist work I do or other ways I support HSUS or any organization. That was really unnecessary.

[MaresNest]

in fact I despise them as much as I do PETA. It's just very difficult to find evidence to convince others how evil they are because of the "good" they seem to do.

I would need some really incredible evidence to use words like 'despise' and 'evil' to describe the HSUS. There are crazies in lots of groups. I haven't heard anything about the HSUS that makes me think it is particularly overrun with them. Of course, if the evidence exists, I would certainly look at it. Does anyone have specific examples of systemic problems with the HSUS? I ask honestly, and in the spirit of information sharing, not argument.

My experience is that anytime children or animals are involved, a fair percentage of people become fanatical. But I think that the majority of people who join groups like HSUS have their hearts in the right place. And, as has been said already, the HSUS works to keep horse sports safe, not to shut them down.

[Bluey]

HSUS member here. I did some research on their website and...

The only horse sport I see them publicly coming out against are rodeo sports. Not barrel racing, but bronc busting, etc. Unlike PETA (this is for you JSwan and Jaegermonster), they don't comdemn horse racing, and in fact have worked with officials in the horse racing and eventing industries to try to make the sports safer. I don't think it's fair to lump the names of HSUS and PETA together like this. For that matter, what do you all think about AWI (Animal Welfare Institute)? American Humane? Or do we just want to pick on the big orgs?

I think that HSUS shares the same sentiment of a lot of us here, including myself - that many equine "sports" can be dangerous, but if precautions are taken to make them safer for the horses and humans involved, that is always a good thing. Driving my car can be dangerous, but that doesn't mean I'm living my life in a hole and never going anywhere. I put on my seat belt and drive (um relatively!) safely.

I'm a hunter princess myself, but I've heard really promising things about frangible pins and other eventing advances. I love watching horse racing, and I'm glad that the industry is willing to work with animal welfare orgs to make the sport safer - I'd hate to cut my ties but will if they don't make some serious changes soon. But I'm not protesting at races like PETA or publicly harassing Gabriel Saez (jockey for Eight Belles) b/c I don't think he didn't anything wrong. I recognize that using a crop is part of horse racing. I think there are good people in the sport, and there are bad. You can say that about pleasure riding too.

I've also heard HSUS come out against the Omak Suicide race (google it) and I believe that although it's not one of their main campaigns, that they oppose using carriage horses for tourist activities in big cities.

As far as PETA, I don't know if they are against any specific sports, but I believe they don't like racing and are also opposed to rodeos.

You are a HSUS member and think they are there to help animals, when the stated goal of their president, by his own words in interviews, is "to end all use of animals by humans and not soon enough for him?"

If you have horses, or an interest on them, as I assume being a poster here, I would think the HSUS or any of those non-profits that are working against us having and using animals would definitely not be who to support.:confused:

Of course they won't want to publish that in their sites, all they want is for people to feel fuzzy about "helping poor abused animals".
The animals are their prop to get money, their cause of the moment to rally donations for.

Here is more about who those groups are, you can read about the HSUS and if you want to, about others in this site and learn who they really are:

http://www.activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm/oid/136

Once you know more about them, you may still decide to support them and that is fine.
Many people don't really know who they really are to make an informed decision if to support them, based only on the general, current information out there, where they present themselves as animal welfare only.

We have many animal welfare laws, we are adding more every day and better education and enforcement.

Anyone that supports those groups and wants to keep their right to keep animals is doing so at their very real risk to loosing that right, when they support animal rights groups.

[eventamy]

Does anyone have a link to the interviews the president has given?

[Ray]

please - if you think HSUS is a fine organization, dig a little deeper.
www.humanewatch.org/

[Bluey]

Does anyone have a link to the interviews the president has given?

Gotta go, but yes, they are several quoted with references out there, you can just google them.

[Ray]

the big concern so far that I have seen re Obama is the appointment of Cass Sunstein. see www.consumerfreedom.com/news_detail.cfm/headline/3807

Great. Animal Rights agenda brought in to head Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs (OIRA). here we go!

Lots of folks on Foxhunters on-line were against Obama. they were particularly appalled at his support for HSUS. I stuck up for him, thinking he just needed more education on the org and the subject. I mean, I gave them $ too, thinking it went to shelters, until I researched it. And, I thought that it was ridiculous to vote for president based on preserving foxhunting. Now, there is not alot that I would give up hunting for, but Obama vs that other guy...no brainer!

But I digress. I have to say, I am pretty worried. “[T]here should be extensive regulation of the use of animals in entertainment, scientific experiments, and agriculture,” Sunstein wrote in a 2002 working paper while at the University of Chicago Law school.

also... Sunstein delivered a keynote speech at Harvard University’s 2007 “Facing Animals” conference. ..Consider this tidbit:
“We ought to ban hunting, I suggest, if there isn’t a purpose other than sport and fun. That should be against the law. It’s time now.”

He concluded his Harvard speech by expressing his “more ambitious animating concern” that the current treatment of livestock and other animals should be considered “a form of unconscionable barbarity not the same as, but in many ways morally akin to, slavery and mass extermination of human beings.” straight out of the PETA playbook.

[tkhawk]

Forgive my ignorance, but what does the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs do? Does it regulate animal stuff?

If it is another department-like the treasury or some such-their animal views don't matter.

You can never tell-it was the bush administration's EPA that brought the fart tax on livestock. So who knows-lets wait. I doubt with the economy in the toilet, two wars, trillion dollar estimated deficit this year, Obama is going to spend his time trying to outlaw hunting.

But you never know. I was reading in the other thread about them bugging show dogs and going and bugging horse riders who used a crop. That is scary-it is one thing if they are in the fringe-but with banning a circus-it is just a bit worrying, that they may be coming into the mainstream.
I think it is too controversial a topic and will turn off more mainstream people. Personally certain things I agree with-like some of those undercover videos-you know if it helps in creating better conditions for livestock in slaughter/feedlots, science research animals -so be it. But the more you learn that they want to end all animal use-pets/livestock/everything-I think it will unite everybody-hunters, vegetarians who own pets, ranchers-because it affects everybody.

[horsecrazy]

You are a HSUS member and think they are there to help animals, when the stated goal of their president, by his own words in interviews, is "to end all use of animals by humans and not soon enough for him?"

If you have horses, or an interest on them, as I assume being a poster here, I would think the HSUS or any of those non-profits that are working against us having and using animals would definitely not be who to support.:confused:

Bluey - since you put that in quotations, am I to believe that is a direct quote from Mr. Pacelle? Because in an earlier thread, YOU quoted him differently:

As their president himself said: "One generation and no more animal slaves and none too soon for me".


So how about we get our story straight? Owning an animal and having it be your "slave" - two very different things.

I have horses, and I am their master, but they are not my slaves. Doesn't mean I'm against owning animals though!

As I've said, I know people who work at HSUS, and I've worked with them in my line of work. They own pets! They own and RIDE horses! Ohmygosh! Don't spread nonsense if you don't know it's true.

Of course I love horses, and that's why I support animal welfare orgs like HSUS, ASPCA, and AWI that share some of my common beliefs and goals. Animal welfare is something I feel very strongly about, as I'm sure you can tell.

[Ray]

As I've said, I know people who work at HSUS, and I've worked with them in my line of work. ...Of course I love horses, and that's why I support animal welfare orgs like HSUS, ASPCA, and AWI that share some of my common beliefs and goals. Animal welfare is something I feel very strongly about, as I'm sure you can tell.

if you are going to champion HSUS:
1) the people you know that work there, what is their job ? ie what do they actually do ?
2)"animal welfare org" - if you support them, let us know what HSUS actually does that contributes to animal welfare.

I am not being facetious, I do want to know. I am trying to keep an open mind...

[Bluey]

Bluey - since you put that in quotations, am I to believe that is a direct quote from Mr. Pacelle? Because in an earlier thread, YOU quoted him differently:




So how about we get our story straight? Owning an animal and having it be your "slave" - two very different things.

I have horses, and I am their master, but they are not my slaves. Doesn't mean I'm against owning animals though!

As I've said, I know people who work at HSUS, and I've worked with them in my line of work. They own pets! They own and RIDE horses! Ohmygosh! Don't spread nonsense if you don't know it's true.

Of course I love horses, and that's why I support animal welfare orgs like HSUS, ASPCA, and AWI that share some of my common beliefs and goals. Animal welfare is something I feel very strongly about, as I'm sure you can tell.

For your information:

http://www.activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm/oid/136

Here are some quotes, still looking for the exact words of the one I mentioned and where the interview happened.
It is a much quoted phrase.:yes:

http://www.activistcash.com/organization_quotes.cfm/oid/136

http://www.tebreezcockers.com/page27.html

If you just google for quotes by the HSUS president Wayne Pacelle, you will get an eye full of who he is and even who he was before he went to work for them.
Here is one place with some quotes:

---"About Wayne Pacelle – He is a radical animal rights fanatic, who follows the "Vegan" religion – eat vegetarian, wear no animal products, and hold animals above all humans. One of his ultimate goals is to force all mankind to eat vegetarian. However, he ignores the fact that billions of birds, mammals, bison, rodents, insects and other animals are displaced, even made nearly extinct, as land is used up to grow the favorite vegetarian crops like soy beans and wheat instead leaving the land as healthy, natural wildlife habitat.

"For the sake of animals, there’s nothing more powerful than changing your diet." - 1998 interview with Pacelle by Erik Marcus published on www.vegan.com.

In college (Yale), he formed an anti group, the Student Animal Rights Coalition, where "we protested deer hunting."

Pacelle started another anti group in Connecticut, the Animal Rights Alliance. He even used animal rights issues when he ran for city council as a Green Party candidate.

As National Director of the Fund For Animals, he claims that he "did a lot of work on wildlife issues, particularly against sport hunting." His specialty there seemed to be hunter harassment:

"We did a lot of field protests against hunting where we would walk with hunters and talk with them about hunting. And in the process they were seldom able to make a kill (the distraction and six people tromping with a hunter scared away the animals). We also challenged the constitutionality of state hunter harassment laws." – 1998 interview with Pacelle by Erik Marcus published on www.vegan.com.

Pacelle’s preferred state referendum tactics include:

"Tabling, hosting house parties, and distributing literature near polling sites are all essential ingredients of a successful statewide initiative." - 1998 interview with Pacelle by Erik Marcus published on www.vegan.com.

Ultimately, he views humans as the big problem, and Nazi-like population control as the means to place animals above people:

"Human population growth is ultimately one of the most significant that we as a movement have to grapple with." - 1998 interview with Pacelle by Erik Marcus published on www.vegan.com.

Pacelle doesn’t even want you to have pets, and not only wants to ban all pet breeding, he wants pets to be extinct:

"We have no problems with the extinction of domestic animals. They are creations of human selective breeding." – Animal People News, May 1, 1993.



I consider these animal rights issues a serious concern for all of us that want to keep our rights to have animals, here we are talking horses.
Other people want to throw the baby out with the bathwater and say humans just can't do right for animals, so animals have to go, other than a few in their natural settings, to live and die there.
I disagree that natural settings ever were or are any more "kind", if not less than domesticated ones, bar direct abuse, of course.

We as humans are who we are because we learned to use animals for what we need.
We can tweak those uses so there is no abuse, but use alone, in my opinion, is not abuse and our use of animals doesn't need to be discarded just because someone else may think it is.

Your right to believe what and who you want, others to not believe the same.:)

As for the HSUS, they are learning that information thru the internet is laying them bare, warts and all and I expect that they are going to change in significant ways how they operate so there won't be anyone able to show who they really are, what they have stood for before, as it is too radical for most people and, once word is getting out, they are starting to lose the important donations they live with and for.

Just my very biased opinion, as I am and have been all my life an animal caretaker by profession.

[MaresNest]

Personally certain things I agree with-like some of those undercover videos-you know if it helps in creating better conditions for livestock in slaughter/feedlots, science research animals -so be it. But the more you learn that they want to end all animal use-pets/livestock/everything-I think it will unite everybody-hunters, vegetarians who own pets, ranchers-because it affects everybody.

To me, this is the essence of the whole animal rights / animal welfare can of worms. There is so much capacity for animal organizations to do good. So many animals suffer in factory farm situations, the entertainment industry, science labs, etc. We need to stop the abuses that are occurring. But many times the animal rights groups get so wrapped up in promoting veganism and/or the completely unattainable goal of returning all animals to a state of nature, that they are then written off by the public as weirdos and castrated of their ability to effect positive change.


http://www.activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm/oid/136

please - if you think HSUS is a fine organization, dig a little deeper.
www.humanewatch.org/

Those two links are actually to different sites designed by the same group - The Center for Consumer Freedom. If you look at some of the other organizations that they describe on the activistcash site, a pattern of criticizing liberal groups quickly becomes apparent. Now, some people will agree with the CCF's opinions about the various groups listed, and some won't. But CCF is definitely not a detached, objective source. They have an agenda of their own. They say on their About Us page that they are committed to exposing 'anti-consumer' groups. LOL. Anti-consumer?

That's not to say that there aren't problems with HSUS, of course. Just that the CCF is not impartial.

[Bluey]

To me, this is the essence of the whole animal rights / animal welfare can of worms. There is so much capacity for animal organizations to do good. So many animals suffer in factory farm situations, the entertainment industry, science labs, etc. We need to stop the abuses that are occurring. But many times the animal rights groups get so wrapped up in promoting veganism and/or the completely unattainable goal of returning all animals to a state of nature, that they are then written off by the public as weirdos and castrated of their ability to effect positive change.





Those two links are actually to different sites designed by the same group - The Center for Consumer Freedom. If you look at some of the other organizations that they describe on the activistcash site, a pattern of criticizing liberal groups quickly becomes apparent. Now, some people will agree with the CCF's opinions about the various groups listed, and some won't. But CCF is definitely not a detached, objective source. They have an agenda of their own. They say on their About Us page that they are committed to exposing 'anti-consumer' groups. LOL. Anti-consumer?

That's not to say that there aren't problems with HSUS, of course. Just that the CCF is not impartial.

Yes, but I was looking for quotas and found many.
Those were the first ones I found, definitively not the only ones.

The HSUS will change if it wants to continue being the largest such non-profit, but I don't believe that they will let their president's long stated goals be forgotten and those ought to be a warning to all of us that think that humans do have a right to use animals.

By the time we quit fighting between ourselves because someone likes to do this but is aghash at what someone else does, the dressage people that can't stand rodeos, the saddlebred riders that think jumpers are crazy, the trail riders that think racing is cruel, etc., there won't be anyone else left to stand for any manner we may use our horses.

[Delaneythehorsegirl]

Jaeger -

That's very interesting. My step sister is a VA state trooper and was active in the Vick investigation. Her experience is much different than yours. Isn't that interesting?

Then there's the case.... I think in LA... where HSUS obtained a helicopter from Homeland Security and conducted a "raid", seizing a whole bunch of pit bulls.

Unfortunately every single animal was put down immediately - including puppies.

Even more unfortunate was that the defendant was... geez.... I don't remember. Either acquitted or charges were dropped due to lack of evidence. But all his dogs are dead.

HSUS disappeared after the raid - did not assist with the dogs or cared what happened to them. I think they did get plenty of photos of their staff in the helicopter though.

My stepdad worked on this case. I don't believe HSUS was the one that got a helicopter, that was the state police. The HSUS was also not responsible for putting all the dogs down. That was the ASPCA, who got thousands of dollars of donations and dog supplies, that believed that fighting dogs were born with bad temperaments and put the puppies down. Boudreaux was the defendant and he was not convicted because the judge presiding over the case admitted to being into hog-dog fighting. (Setting dogs to attack and eventually kill a chained up hog. Usually beating the dogs in the process to make them meaner.) Unfortunately, that piece of information was disregarded and whodathunkit *sarcasm* he doesn't get convicted.

I still don't like the HSUS, but I just want you to get your facts straight.

[Ray]

Forgive my ignorance, but what does the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs do? Does it regulate animal stuff?
If it is another department-like the treasury or some such-their animal views don't matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Information_and_Regulatory_Affairs
and..
www.whitehouse.gov/omb/inforeg/

Its part of the Executive Branch, under OMB - with a fairly broad mandate to review and recommend regulatory policies.

like any other Executive Branch high-profile job, the director SHOULD be implementing the president's policies and priorities, not his own. So we'll see.

[Guilherme]

also... Sunstein delivered a keynote speech at Harvard University’s 2007 “Facing Animals” conference. ..Consider this tidbit:
“We ought to ban hunting, I suggest, if there isn’t a purpose other than

The American Puritanical Streak peeks through again! :(

The Old Puritanism was about sex. The New Puritanism is about everything but sex.

HSUS is an extremeist organization where everybody wears coats and ties. Do they do some good? Probably. But, then, Mussolini made the trains run on time.

G.

[Bluey]

“We have no ethical obligation to preserve the different breeds of livestock produced through selective breeding ...One generation and out. We have no problems with the extinction of domestic animals. They are creations of human selective breeding.”
— Animal People News


“My goal is the abolition of all animal agriculture.”
— HSUS grassroots coordinator John “J.P.” Goodwin

Remember that horses fall under domestic animals, those they want to become extinct.:eek:

Those of us in agriculture have gone from the general public understanding where their food comes from to now being seen as rapers of the earth and abusers of animals.
That is now flowing into what we do with any other animals, including horses.
One of the latests surveys of teenage kids in high schools asked them how they felt about our use of animals and one in 200 said they were vegetarians.
They don't realize that losing our use of animals includes the dogs, cats and yes, even their fish in tanks at home and definitely the horses some of them may want to ride, or all other we aquire from our use of animals directly and from their miriad of products.

The problem seems to be that the animal rights groups keep muddling the issues of use with abuse in the mind of the general public, so they send in donations, which is their main goal in all this controversy.

Guess that all of us have an image and PR problem, the HSUS and those of us, that have animals, that it targets.:yes:

Answering the OP, yes, the HSUS is also against our use of horses, as per horses being domestic animals.:(

[cowgirljenn]

Again, might want to do some research here - in particular try looking up the Black Beauty Sanctuary and the Duchess Sanctuary - both developed by HSUS.


Wrong. The Black Beauty Ranch was developed by Cleveland Armory and the Fund for Animals. MUCH later (after Armory's death), Fund for Animals merged with HSUS. HSUS now runs Black Beauty (I was going to correct those who said HSUS didn't run any shelters). But they didn't start it nor develop it. And when the Fund for Animals still existed, they actually worked with rescues to take in unadoptable and even dangerous horses (we sent a dangerous horse there). Now that HSUS has the ranch, they have no room, have a huge waiting list and aren't helping the rescues help horses. It is sad because I have some feral ponies that would do best in a setting like that, but I can't get them in there.

[JSwan]

I've worked with HSUS in a professional sense too. I used to work directly with them, matter of fact. Not on equine issues specifically - but at the corporate level on much different issues. Who I worked with, what we worked on, and what we discussed is none of your business.

I don't know what your snotty comment was meant to convey, because I've started no thread bashing HSUS or any other entity. A person asked a question and I answered it.

If you don't care for the response, fine. But don't assume I don't have any direct knowledge. What HSUS markets itself to be and what it is are two different things.

When they find a high profile issue, they come and and get their name in the papers and leave a mess behind. Dead dogs, chaos, lawsuits from people trying to get their animals back, and rescues and shelters that are left to pick up the pieces. More and more lawsuits. More and more lobbying on issues that are not about welfare, but about animal rights. And money. Always money. It happens over and over. And I've seen plenty of outright lies they've put forth as immutable truths. And people believe everything as if it came from the burning bush. Never question what they read.

Since Wayne Pacelle took over it has transitioned into championing animal rights. It's a cause I don't believe in and I think HSUS is not being honest about their mission. They haven't been honest about it for a long time.

The OP asked for information and I gave it, along with my opinion. It's an educated opinion that differs from yours.

It's possible to dislike HSUS and PETA and still strongly believe in animal welfare. If that was their mission, and they were honest about their goals, I'd respect them more.






1. Don't assume. Your first statement is actually laughable to me. I've worked with HSUS in a professional sense (I work in the horse welfare industry), I know (as in first name basis) and respect a lot of people there. I referred to their website because the OP had a question about which horse sports HSUS frowned upon, and their website provided that info that I didn't know offhand. As a reminder, THAT was the original topic, though as usual you've turned it into a bashing.

2. So what type of "interaction" have you had with them? Since I apparently only know what I know about HSUS through the internet :rolleyes: maybe you can elaborate on your direction interaction and just why you hate dealing with them so much?

[JSwan]

You describe the actual circumstances much better than I did. My point was that it is an example of HSUS sweeping in to get the headlines, and then not staying around to follow through. No guidance, no commitment, no follow up.

Just get the photo op of HSUS employees performing an investigation with a Homeland Security helicopter..... and then POOF - they go back to DC.

It takes commitment and a heck of a lot of money and time to really and truly help animals in need. They didn't really help any animals. They're dead. They could have worked with the shelter, trying to help them evaluate the dogs, or could have offered legal assistance with interpreting the conflicting statutes. They didn't. They left. They could have worked with rescues or offered assistance with trainers. They didn't. They left.

There was no justice, there was no "saving" of anything or anyone. They have an entire litigation section and a big law firm on the side that never lifted a finger. They have full time lobbyists in each state.

They came in, got their picture taken, and left a mess behind - which a dysfunctional community had to "fix."



My stepdad worked on this case.

[Bluey]

The plot of the HSUS and horses, as per the OP's question, thickens::eek:

---"January 13, 2009

by Stacy Segal

Rescued horses across the country have gained a great ally through a special joint venture of The Humane Society of the United States and Parelli Natural Horsemanship. For decades, world-renowned natural horsemanship trainers, Pat and Linda Parelli, have been helping horse owners reach new levels of communication and partnership with their horses through humane and caring training techniques.

Now, they've joined forces with The Humane Society of the United States to spotlight the intelligence and trainability of rescued horses and help them find forever homes.
Celebrate Horses With The HSUS and the Parellis!

Find a Parelli Celebration Near You"---

My question, why would the Parelli group align themselves publicly with an animal rights group, that has declared domestic animals, as our horses are, superfluous?

Why not help unwanted horses on their own and leave it at that?:confused:

[Alagirl]

The plot of the HSUS and horses, as per the OP's question, thickens::eek:

---"January 13, 2009

by Stacy Segal

Rescued horses across the country have gained a great ally through a special joint venture of The Humane Society of the United States and Parelli Natural Horsemanship. For decades, world-renowned natural horsemanship trainers, Pat and Linda Parelli, have been helping horse owners reach new levels of communication and partnership with their horses through humane and caring training techniques.

Now, they've joined forces with The Humane Society of the United States to spotlight the intelligence and trainability of rescued horses and help them find forever homes.
Celebrate Horses With The HSUS and the Parellis!

Find a Parelli Celebration Near You"---

My question, why would the Parelli group align themselves publicly with an animal rights group, that has declared domestic animals, as our horses are, superfluous?

Why not help unwanted horses on their own and leave it at that?:confused:


BWAHAHAHAHAHA, Parelli and HSUS.....gawd....marketing pure.

Not knowing what or who HSUS was a few years back I ran them through google. I did not read all of the pages, but the original HSUS site didn't even pop up on top....and it was the only one saying anything nice about them.

And as for the quotes....these PR guys have a perpetual diarhea from the mouth, they say a lot of things when the day is long. Fine if you like what they tell you, personally I didn't like what else I read. They are not as high profile as PETA - especially in the nutjob department, but that makes them rather more dangerous. I prefer to keep my money locally, with people who actually do the work and really apreciate the contribution! (had it out with a statetrooper collection person one time, I pledged 10 bucks and they got nasty because I didn't send the check yesterday. needless to say the check never left the house after that, if you can't be nice about getting money, screw you)

(Obama supporting HSUS....GAWD NO!!! Time to write letters?)

[Bluey]

I think that the HSUS is trying to change it's stripes, which it seems it has done before, following what the market best determines for their main goal, fund raising from donations and the membership they sell.

So, I would say, stay tuned, it is going to get more interesting.
I just hope that some unwanted horses will be ahead after all the dust clears, which is a distinct possibility.:yes:

[LQ]

You won't see much direct evidence of anything. But rest assured they're there.

PETA like to run around naked and shout "Murderer" all the time and collect money. They target youth.

HSUS is PETA in a Brooks Brothers suit. They have a more palatable image - which is very carefully cultivated and marketed.

They sent "observers" to the Olympics to make sure no horses were abused.:confused:

They love to come in on high profile sexy issues. They sweep in and conduct a few press conferences, some interviews, and then sweep back out - counting the money they made and leaving a mess behind for real animal welfare advocates to clean up. Don't get me started on Katrina.

There, I've said it. If you're interested in donating money for animal welfare I'd suggest maybe the ASPCA... they're a bit more moderate.

You have everything here rite. That is everything but this last little bit. ASPCA. There just as bad, infact ASPCA and PETA are together. I witnessed an ASPCA raid on a woman last yr. The Vet was a PETA vet out of NY CITY. The woman called us to inspect her mares and foals while they were there. The vet I work with said the SPCA had no right to raid this woman and they wer wrong to accuse her of anything. He knew the PETA vet at least she is always on the job for them. He told me she is a bitch.

[eurofoal]

I
but anyway, HSUS gets a ton of $$ from people who see the cute mailings with puppies and kitties and they think that HSUS is somehow affiliated with their local humane society, which couldn't be further from the truth.
HSUS runs no shelters, no kennels, no rescues. They will, however, jump right in for the photo op, and throw money at a case in the public eye, like housing Michael Vicks' dogs.

They are primarily a lobbying group and their agenda is way out there and very radical. I remember a few years ago when they got a bunch of dogs from a rescue/shelter somewehre on the east coast that they were going to "place" but instead they EU'd all of them in the van as they were driving away and were seen by citizens dumping the bodies in a dumpster.


HSUS is really something else.

I




I once sent some research to my farrier and others who were urging me via email to support the HSUS... NO WAY!!!

They are a radical group, make no mistake. Their beliefs are watered down for public viewing, but, the people behind the group are adament. They want to abolish any form of dog breeding, they believe everyone should be a vegatarian, etc. Trust me, those of you who do not keep your horses in feral situations (ie, those of us who keep horses in barns or at home and actually ride them), the people who run HSUS are no friends of yours. The quotes that I have read indicate that they fundamentally oppose it privately, if not publicly.

I'll see if I can find some of the quotes from the HSUS powers that be and post them.

[MandyVA]

the big concern so far that I have seen re Obama is the appointment of Cass Sunstein. see www.consumerfreedom.com/news_detail.cfm/headline/3807

Great. Animal Rights agenda brought in to head Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs (OIRA). here we go!

Lots of folks on Foxhunters on-line were against Obama. they were particularly appalled at his support for HSUS. I stuck up for him, thinking he just needed more education on the org and the subject. I mean, I gave them $ too, thinking it went to shelters, until I researched it. And, I thought that it was ridiculous to vote for president based on preserving foxhunting. Now, there is not alot that I would give up hunting for, but Obama vs that other guy...no brainer!

But I digress. I have to say, I am pretty worried. “[T]here should be extensive regulation of the use of animals in entertainment, scientific experiments, and agriculture,” Sunstein wrote in a 2002 working paper while at the University of Chicago Law school.

also... Sunstein delivered a keynote speech at Harvard University’s 2007 “Facing Animals” conference. ..Consider this tidbit:
“We ought to ban hunting, I suggest, if there isn’t a purpose other than sport and fun. That should be against the law. It’s time now.”

He concluded his Harvard speech by expressing his “more ambitious animating concern” that the current treatment of livestock and other animals should be considered “a form of unconscionable barbarity not the same as, but in many ways morally akin to, slavery and mass extermination of human beings.” straight out of the PETA playbook.

This is interesting to me. I have to say while the guy does sound like a fruitcake, what exactly is your beef with any of these actual statements? You don't think the use of animals in entertainment, scientific experiments, and agriculture should be extensively regulated? I mean, they pretty much are already, though underenforced.

I thought hunting was primarily for keeping the populations of animals with no remaining natural predators low. What sort of hunting is done purely for sport and fun, and is there really a legitimate reason to preserve that? I don't think the case could even be made that foxhunting is purely for sport and fun.

He's going kinda far with the unconscionable barbarity concept. Surely not all livestock suffer horribly. I thought his contention that animals should have the right to bring suit with a human as their guardian was outright ridiculous until it occurred to me that it might actually be useful for things like going after slaughter dealers who routinely ship horses in violation of USDA regs and aren't adequately prosecuted. Where the voice the animals are supposed to have--law enforcement--isn't speaking up for them, why not have another avenue?

I dunno...I think there are probably valid arguments to be made on both sides of the issue of this guy's appointment to regulatory czar or whatever. Curious to hear more about what other posters think.

[Bluey]

This is interesting to me. I have to say while the guy does sound like a fruitcake, what exactly is your beef with any of these actual statements? You don't think the use of animals in entertainment, scientific experiments, and agriculture should be extensively regulated? I mean, they pretty much are already, though underenforced.

I thought hunting was primarily for keeping the populations of animals with no remaining natural predators low. What sort of hunting is done purely for sport and fun, and is there really a legitimate reason to preserve that? I don't think the case could even be made that foxhunting is purely for sport and fun.

He's going kinda far with the unconscionable barbarity concept. Surely not all livestock suffer horribly. I thought his contention that animals should have the right to bring suit with a human as their guardian was outright ridiculous until it occurred to me that it might actually be useful for things like going after slaughter dealers who routinely ship horses in violation of USDA regs and aren't adequately prosecuted. Where the voice the animals are supposed to have--law enforcement--isn't speaking up for them, why not have another avenue?

I dunno...I think there are probably valid arguments to be made on both sides of the issue of this guy's appointment to regulatory czar or whatever. Curious to hear more about what other posters think.

I think that people should decide as a society if we want to use animals and how, or decide that any use is wrong for the animals, as it is, philosophically and ban all use of animals by humans.

Up to right now, it seems that most people are fine with how our human societies have been evolving and the general use of all kinds of animals.
We are changing and more and more people don't like the IDEA of us using animals, comparing them to how we people would feel in their shoes.

If we are going to be using animals, bar outright abuse, that is clearly legalize against already, we should let people do what they want, as long as it is legal, with those animals they own.

If we don't, the rest of the discussion is moot point, shoot all animals until they are all dead, ban raising any more and so we will not have any more in the hands of humans.
Leave the wild ones left to fend for themselves and keep on best we can with what we won't have from all the miriads of uses we make of our animals and their products, including the horses we ride.

Most people I knew growing up with Disney cartoons full of cute animals grew up and, being all for kindness and humane handling of animals, still understood that they were acceptable for us to use as one more renewable resource we had, raised and used for our needs as the humans we are.

Today, people seem to want animals to have the same rights as humans have and still have them to use.:confused:

Sorry, it doesn't work both ways.
We can't make omelettes without breaking eggs, really, pun intended.

In these discussions, someone always brings abuse to ban use.
No one wants abuse, of course, but use at times implies unpleasantness, without being outright abuse and that should be ok.
That is so in our own lives, that are not always pleasant either.
That is what life is, for all of us.

[LQ]

I know a woman that has horse business and she simply hates horse rescues,spca and hs. She does contribute to her faviorite Animal shelter. Its a farm, where a husband and wife spend their spare time taking in and carring for animals that otherwise would have gone to some shelter for a couple of days befor.... They have mostly horses. These horses are horses that people just can't keep anymore. Or there from rescues that can't afford or can't sell them. This woman told me that there is so many crooked rscues out there that its better to help people like these than give your money to crooks. She gives money, hay and sometimes a truck load of ear corn. These people keep as many animals as the can and do sell them to good homes. Difference being is they don't want to know your life history befor you can buy a horse. Just a good home and what ever you can afford for payment. Giveing to a place like this I can go with. there must be others out there. Even a good trustworthy rescue. I know they are far and inbetween, but there are some. I have seen myself, at super markets rescues ,PETA and others getting donations from people that don't even know what a horse looks like. Wheres the money go. I seen kids take handfulls out of the box and go buy goodies. I think all this animal welfare needs to be dumped upside down and replaced with somehing else. Its all gotten out of hand. Look at all the money that PETA, HSUS and others get in donations, not to mention the donations rescues get. I bet out of all this money there isn't enough left to to buy a load of hay. So maybe its time for a change. Theres no need for anyone not to have enough feed for their animals. Maybe there should be a co-op where people can come to for feed when their down and out. Instead of haveing spca come and arrest them for cruilty because they can't afford feed. People should be helped, not thrown in jail. It don't help the animals any.

[cowgirljenn]

They have mostly horses. These horses are horses that people just can't keep anymore. Or there from rescues that can't afford or can't sell them. This woman told me that there is so many crooked rscues out there that its better to help people like these than give your money to crooks.


There's nothing like stereotyping and throwing out the baby with the bathwater!

There ARE bad rescues. There are bad vets, bad doctors, bad policemen, bad teachers.. in other words, there is bad in everything. Instead of trashing an entire group of people, many of who ARE doing good, perhaps we should support the good rescues and drive the bad ones out.

Look at all the money that PETA, HSUS and others get in donations, not to mention the donations rescues get. I bet out of all this money there isn't enough left to to buy a load of hay.


PETA and HSUS get loads in donations. I'll agree with that - and it seems precious little of it goes to directly helping animals. But rescues? Not so much. Most rescues struggle for what they get and use it to help those animals in their care.

And there are rescues who buy hay to help owners who are down and out. We have done that a few times (not often - if we did, there are plenty of people who would take advantage of that and then hurt those truly in need). We've also educated owners, taught them how to care for their animals, and thus not had to take their horses.

So maybe its time for a change. Theres no need for anyone not to have enough feed for their animals. Maybe there should be a co-op where people can come to for feed when their down and out. Instead of haveing spca come and arrest them for cruilty because they can't afford feed. People should be helped, not thrown in jail. It don't help the animals any.

I've been involved in a lot of seizures - and I cannot recall a single one where the owners said the reason their horses were skinny was because they couldn't afford to feed them. Most of the time, they completely deny that the horses ARE skinny. I've had cases where we (or individuals) have offered to buy hay/grain to help the owners get started and been turned down because, "There's nothing wrong with my horses". I've heard that when there are horses who have starved to death on the property - the owners insisted there was nothing wrong with them.

We HAVE taken in owner-surrendered horses when we show up on a neglect case, talk to the owner about proper care, and they tell us they can't afford the horse and want us to take them.

Rarely do we find someone who just needs a month or two of help to get back on their feet. I wish that were the case - I sure would like to be put out of business and have my life back. :)

[Jaegermonster]

Again, might want to do some research here - in particular try looking up the Black Beauty Sanctuary and the Duchess Sanctuary - both developed by HSUS.

Jaeger, I admire your work with Vick's dogs, but really with the low blow b/c I said I'm an HSUS member? Really? You don't know how much I contribute, and even more important, the animal activist work I do or other ways I support HSUS or any organization. That was really unnecessary.


regarding the shelters that may have been "founded" by HSUS. Don't think so. Black Beauty Ranch was founded by Cleveland Amory and willed to HSUS. That's the best they can do in the whole country???
They don't run any shelters or rescues anywhere, esp on a local or state level to help all the domesticated dogs and cats they like to use in their mailings. Period.

And it wasn't a low blow. You plainly stated in your post that you were an HSUS member and got your information from "their website". I didn't assume anything. I went on the information that YOU gave in your post. You didn't say you got information from your work with them or from your personal experience or anything else. You said you got it from THEIR website.