MICHIGAN: PETA Gets MSU to Ban Circus/Lipizzans Next?

[DairyQueen2049]

"The policy change also could affect the rodeo and Lipizzaner Stallions show scheduled to take place in February at the Pavilion for Agriculture and Livestock Education." :eek: :eek:

http://www.statenews.com/index.php/article/2009/01/msu_officials_ban_circus_from_breslin

[BuddyRoo]

Just wow.

Got to wonder what major MSU sponsor/alum threatened to put away their checkbook to get this to happen?

[jn4jenny]

I really, really, really am not trying to start a fight. I think most animal activists are absolutely nutso crazy.

But firstly, you are incorrectly attributing this to PETA. The article clearly states that it is SPAR, a student organization at MSU, that is spearheading the effort against the circus. PETA made the original allegations on their web site about that particular circus, but SPAR is the group involved with the MSU policy.

Secondly, I'd be curious to know the real, objective details of how these circus animals--and for that matter the Lippizaners--are treated. How often do they get turned out, if at all? What do they eat? When do they get a break, if ever?

I'm not saying that I would flatly object to circus horses or traveling horse exhibitions or whatever; if the care conditions are sufficient, then it's not very different from a horse living and working at the racetrack for part/most of the year. That's not the life I'd choose for my horse, but I don't think I'd call it "cruel".

If there's no information about how the animals are really treated, then it's going to be tough to know whether SPAR is a bunch of crazies or if they've actually got a point. So who wants to chime in and tell us the behind the scenes story?

[seeuatx]

Does MSU have an IHSA team?

[BuddyRoo]

yes

[cowgirljenn]

Secondly, I'd be curious to know the real, objective details of how these circus animals--and for that matter the Lippizaners--are treated. How often do they get turned out, if at all? What do they eat? When do they get a break, if ever?


I'll bet that NOT ONE of those people in SPAR have spent any time at a circus or ever spoken to any circus people. Yes, there are bad circuses and bad circus people. But there are also bad doctors and bad teachers and bad horse trainers - and we don't toss them all out because of the bad apples. We do our best to get rid of the bad apples.

While I haven't spent tons of time with circus people, I have been in the pen at Ringling with the baby tigers. I've gone in to pet the baby elephant (and had her almost pick me up by my leg and toss me around - eek!) at Carson and Barnes. I've gone 'behind the scenes' with the Friesians at Carson and Barnes. And I've spent time talking to one of the baby/young elephant trainers with Ringling and the large cat trainers at Ringling. And I've spent time talking to the Carson and Barnes' Friesian handler/caretaker (who came from Germany with them) as well as the elephant trainer at Carson and Barnes. The animals I witnessed at both of those circues were well-cared for. Did not act scared of their handlers. I didn't inquire about their diet (aside from the baby tigers), but as they were all healthy, they appear to have been well-fed.

The animals with most circuses have winter quarters where they spend time turned out, relaxing, hanging out. Those who are too old to still perform are either taken along (because they get lonely without their pals) or retired to the winter quarters. The Carson and Barnes Friesians get turned out when possible to play - and btw, that's 8-10 stallions who travel together, get turned out together, and do great. It is something to see. :)

By all means, we should get rid of the bad circuses (I did spend a day at a circus traveling out of Mexico, and I was quite unhappy with the care of their animals - especially the poor bear they hauled around). But lets not throw out the good ones along with the bad. Circuses do a lot FOR animals (they do a lot of successful captive breeding of elephants - way more successfully than zoos). Lets focus on eleminating the bad ones and promoting the good ones.

[LEN]

Get used to it. They have big support. People right here on this board are big supporters. They will control what you do with your horse, that is if they let you have one. The day is near. Not just with horses, but all livestock.

[JSwan]

But firstly, you are incorrectly attributing this to PETA. The article clearly states that it is SPAR, a student organization at MSU, that is spearheading the effort against the circus. PETA made the original allegations on their web site about that particular circus, but SPAR is the group involved with the MSU policy.



SPAR is affiliated with PETA.

PETA and HSUS are known for playing fast and loose with the truth. Excellent marketing programs though. I hear PETA now wants us to to refer to fish as, "sea kittens".

[Dixon]

The power of naming is very strong. Witness the thread about how people avoid the label "OTTB" in favor of more lucrative labels. Or how lesson horses are rarely named "Firecracker" or "Bombshell" because if that quiet old schoolie ever took a misstep, Little Suzie's parents would sue the trainer for knowing the horse's explosive tendencies, even if the name was a facetious joke. When you go to a Chinese restaurant, you can order "Sea Cucumber," which is simply another label for "Sea Slug." Just because someone proposes a new label for fish to get us to think about what we're ordering and you're not used to it yet doesn't mean it's not a positive evolution of language.

[tkhawk]

Wow! That is sad. I love the circus. Every time I go to one, there were folks outside giving literature out-but I always thought they were fringe elements. Who knew they could get this poweful.

Yikes I hope this does not become a major thing and they start going after them all over.

[seeuatx]

I wonder how this decision would weigh on IHSA programs and shows if this statement were to prove true: "SPAR’s mission is to ban all animal-related performing on campus" (note: the quote is attributed to Ed Purchis in the article, not SPAR themselves).

[msrobin]

Ringling Brothers circus is horrible and cruel I have seen all of it first hand. Most which I will not mention on this board. I do not go to any circus that has any animals. They all appear to be great animal lovers when they are NOT. It is the worst. I have not seen the Royal Hanneford Circus since I no longer go.

I rode with the Lipizzaner Stallion show back in the eighties and those horses were treated better than the riders. They were and are the show. They do not stay on the road all the time, they have plenty of horse time. Just like show horses do.

PETA has done some great work some I don't agree with but so be it. However SPAR or Students Promoting Animal Rights is a group that was started by an animal rights student at the college. They are a college that has a page on the PETA2 website that it is. Anyone can get one. They spread information about the cruelties that take place everyday in our world. It is a great group. They have footage of the Royal Hanneford Circus trainers abusing animals click here to see it for yourself.
http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=carson_barnes_long

Rodeo is another problem, I have never seen such blatant cruelty of animals in my entire life. I hate rodeos always have always will and yes I have seen it all first hand. Rodeo's are terrible.

Here is a link to the report on peta
http://college.peta2.com/?p=45

I applaud the work they do.


By the way do a google search for this term Royal Hanneford Circus cruel
then see how many sites feature them.

[cowgirljenn]

Ringling Brothers circus is horrible and cruel I have seen all of it first hand. Most which I will not mention on this board. I do not go to any circus that has any animals. They all appear to be great animal lovers when they are NOT.

So how have you seen it first hand? Were you one of the people who were bating them to make mistakes so you could jump on it? What exactly do you object to? I know you said you won't mention what you witnessed - but it is a little hard to take someone seriously when they a) don't say how they came by their info and b) don't actually tell you what they saw.

And a search for any circus name and "cruel" will generate a ton of hits. Because there are plenty of people who don't like circuses and will put out a ton of misleading or blatantly false info. And there are plenty of people who go in, bait the circus people, and watch for them to make mistakes or blow up at them.

[Appsolute]

Count me in as another horse lover that will not go to circuses with animals.

I believe it is a cruel life for a wild animal to endure.

I don't protest, just a circus will never see any of my family's money.

[cowgirljenn]

They will start going after all circuses - they already are. And then they'll go after show horses. Since SOME people in the horse world are bad and cruel, they'll lump us all in together. And before long, we'll have people protesting at horse shows.

Wow! That is sad. I love the circus. Every time I go to one, there were folks outside giving literature out-but I always thought they were fringe elements. Who knew they could get this poweful.

Yikes I hope this does not become a major thing and they start going after them all over.

[thatmoody]

Msrobin, who did you ride with? We've worked with Gary Lashinsky some and found his operation quite professional (one of our stallions came from there - the Andy). The horses are worth a LOT of money (for that matter, so are circus cats) so they are treated quite well, even during difficult conditions on the road. All of the women I met who work with them really love horses. At home, they get turnout and regular riding to stay in training. They are also fed well - we're having quite a time keeping up with our stallions regular hay requirements - we don't typically feed 4x a day!!

[Huntertwo]

So how have you seen it first hand? Were you one of the people who were bating them to make mistakes so you could jump on it? What exactly do you object to? I know you said you won't mention what you witnessed - but it is a little hard to take someone seriously when they a) don't say how they came by their info and b) don't actually tell you what they saw.

And a search for any circus name and "cruel" will generate a ton of hits. Because there are plenty of people who don't like circuses and will put out a ton of misleading or blatantly false info. And there are plenty of people who go in, bait the circus people, and watch for them to make mistakes or blow up at them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2KEjdcceng

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQfnuxbOHTY&feature=related

I guess this is what you call baiting the circus people??? :no:

Hate hate hate animal circuses and would never attend one. Never.

[tkhawk]

msrobin I did go to your link . But I guess I am a zombie-because that is the first thing that greets you-Only zombies eat meat!:rolleyes:

Now is that trainer in the video still employed by this circus. I personally know of one horse trainer who treats his horses worse than that elephant trainer. Does that mean we ban all horse events/training?

That trainer is just stupid, but not all are like that. This effort was lead by the Sexiest vegetarian next door? :rolleyes:
:no:I think you ranchers have to change your marketing to compete with this.

[Bluey]

Ringling Brothers circus is horrible and cruel I have seen all of it first hand. Most which I will not mention on this board. I do not go to any circus that has any animals. They all appear to be great animal lovers when they are NOT. It is the worst. I have not seen the Royal Hanneford Circus since I no longer go.

I rode with the Lipizzaner Stallion show back in the eighties and those horses were treated better than the riders. They were and are the show. They do not stay on the road all the time, they have plenty of horse time. Just like show horses do.

PETA has done some great work some I don't agree with but so be it. However SPAR or Students Promoting Animal Rights is a group that was started by an animal rights student at the college. They are a college that has a page on the PETA2 website that it is. Anyone can get one. They spread information about the cruelties that take place everyday in our world. It is a great group. They have footage of the Royal Hanneford Circus trainers abusing animals click here to see it for yourself.
http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=carson_barnes_long

Rodeo is another problem, I have never seen such blatant cruelty of animals in my entire life. I hate rodeos always have always will and yes I have seen it all first hand. Rodeo's are terrible.

Here is a link to the report on peta
http://college.peta2.com/?p=45

I applaud the work they do.


By the way do a google search for this term Royal Hanneford Circus cruel
then see how many sites feature them.

Boy, are you wrong on who PETA and HSUS are.
For your information::eek:

http://www.activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm/oid/21

http://www.activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm/oid/136

As for how the circus treats animals, I can say that the one our riding school was a winter stop for two months, all animals were very well taken care of by their grooms.:)
We kept one lion in a box stall for them for a little, along with assorted other critters in our three day outside course, that was well fenced.
It was very interesting to practice amongst elephants, llamas, camels and other odd critters.

[jn4jenny]

SPAR is affiliated with PETA.

Uh, that's like saying that my local eventing association is affiliated with USEA and therefore we can blame USEA for my local association not posting this year's event calendar yet. "Affiliation" does not automatically mean "transfer of blame" or "working together on a project".

SPAR seems plenty fanatical enough on their own. Their web site is...special.

[JSwan]

Just because someone proposes a new label for fish to get us to think about what we're ordering and you're not used to it yet doesn't mean it's not a positive evolution of language.

Sharks ain't kittens.

If you doubt me, go swimming in the ocean with a cut on your leg. If you make it back, be sure to let us know how cute and adorable the "sea kittens" are.

It's emotional manipulation designed to achieve a political goal, not the natural evolution of language. Turning animals into a caricature, using misinformation, outright lies, and convenient photo ops to ban the use of animals - even as pets.

These groups take advantage of the fact that most people live in urban areas and have no idea what nature is like or where their food comes from.

I'm reminded of the poor idiot who went out to live with grizzly bears, trying to show us how misunderstood they are. Then the bears ate him.

Wild and domestic animals are incredible, beautiful creatures that deserve humane treatment at all times. However, to assign them cute and cuddly names, misrepresent their attributes and true nature to an increasingly ignorant public - is a complete disservice to the animals. As well as people.

SPAR is not an independent entity separate from PETA. PETA, as well as HSUS are extraordinarily active in the school system. They help form these groups, they help fund them, they provide free or low cost publications, and they provide guidance and help with marketing.

When asked, none of these groups will come right out and say your right to own a horse should be taken away. Or your pet dog or cat.

In practice, every action they take results in bans or restrictions. A ban on ownership, a ban on an activity, and they take each activity or group individually.

But the goal is the same. Ban all ownership of animals, even as companions. They'll couch it in different terms, and they'll even say oh no - lots of our members own horses or dogs.

That's not the reality. None of these groups EVER advocate for anything unless it's part of their larger goal. Ban all use of animals, even as companions. Including horses. Even if you just want to trail ride or do dressage.

One of these days they'll target your sport or hobby or use of an animal. Maybe a breed ban. Maybe advocating for laws that deprive you of due process and allow them to easily seize your animal. It will happen. It's happening now.

It's a shame because there is plenty of good animal welfare work to be done. If these groups put their many many millions towards REAL attempts that garner REAL results, they would accomplish a great deal. Instead, it's ban ban ban.

[randomequine]

PETA has some good ideas, but they take everything a little too far --

Case in Point:

I was at a horse show a couple years ago, and, well, more horse is a lazy bum. I carry a dressage whip while schooling just to remind him that he *does* have to go forward. While asking for a canter depart, he was being particularly belligerent and I whacked him to remind him to pay attention. After that, I see this woman with a camera practically running around the warm-up arena, taking pictures of my horse and I. One or two pictures is fine with me, but after what I would guess was 40 photos, I stopped and asked her what she was doing. She introduced herself as a member of PETA and asked me if I knew how absolutely cruel I was being to my horse...and also told me that she would be finding out my name to report me to the "proper authorities"

Needless to say, she got a small earful :-)

[cowgirljenn]

She introduced herself as a member of PETA and asked me if I knew how absolutely cruel I was being to my horse...and also told me that she would be finding out my name to report me to the "proper authorities"


I think I would have given her my name, reported her to the authorities and been tempted to smack HER with the whip. :)

This is the kind of stuff, though, several of us are trying to warn others about. I'm NOT for cruelty to animals - I've given up too much to protect horses (like a real, competitive salary, time to show and compete on my own and follow my own dreams, friends, vacations, etc.). However I understand that animals can be used and be treated humanely. I understand that if zoos and circuses did not exist, many of the animals they house and "use" would be in danger of going extinct - or would be extinct already. I understand there's such a thing as humane treatment.

But people with radical groups don't see any of that. They see ONE person treat an animal badly and decide that we all must. They see ONE thing they interpret as bad treatment (a crop, spurs, a bit, a stall, whatever) and decide that they know what is going on.

And then they chip away at our abilities and rights. They don't focus on going after the bad apples - no, they throw out ALL the good apples in an attempt to get rid of the bad.

It makes me incredibly sad to see where this is going. I am positive both PETA and HSUS started out with good goals - and I think because of them lab animals are treated more humanely, some industries have cleaned up their acts, etc. But now they've morphed into something ugly and dangerous. And they're doing more harm than good to the animals we love.

[Bluey]

I tell you a PETA story.

I parked at our local supermarket by a van where three girls, students at the local college, but not from here, for what they were chatting loudly about, were changing into cow customes.
They marched to the entrance carrying plackards with BEEF IS MURDER and such.
Mind you, cattle is the number 1 economic force here.
There would not be many people left if all that work with cattle and those that sell services and goods to them left.
Ok, they may not have known that, not being from here.

Anyway, they were there a few minutes, a local newstation drove up, filmed them as they said a few words I didn't catch and left.
The girls left then, total maybe ten minutes out of their I am sure very busy day.

Well, there was this story in the local news about a PETA demonstration in town and the camera was showing the girls, they said something still unintelligible to me, the camera panned over people coming and going to the store and that was their big PETA demonstration.:confused: :D :lol:

[cowgirljenn]

These groups take advantage of the fact that most people live in urban areas and have no idea what nature is like or where their food comes from.


Most of their members haven't actually been to see the groups they protest - whether it be a dairy, a horse show, a circus, or a zoo. They read a pamphlet that makes it sound awful and are outraged.

I particularly like the ones who are outraged at how farm animals are treated - but prance around in their leather jackets with their leather boots on. Do they think the leather just falls off the cattle to make goods for them?

Or the ones who protest animal ownership while owning animals. Because somehow how THEY own animals is different than the rest of us.

*sigh* I look at my dog, my cats and my horses and ache at the thought of living in a world where I can't live with them. I look at the difference between my "abused" house cats and the scrawny feral cats who are living on their own, slaves to no human, and there's no comparison. I look at my blanketed horses who are outside eating hay and grain and realize that if they were in the wild, all but maybe two of them would be dead by now.

But according to PETA, I and those like me are the ones in the wrong. It is a crazy world.

[equinelaw]

I honestly can see no excuse for that video clip of the elephant trainer.

[cowgirljenn]

Well, there was this story in the local news about a PETA demonstration in town and the camera was showing the girls, they said something still unintelligible to me, the camera panned over people coming and going to the store and that was their big PETA demonstration.:confused: :D :lol:

*grin* I would have liked to have been there for that one - protesting beef in an area whose very existence depends on beef! Good way to win supporters! :)

[seeuatx]

PETA has some good ideas, but they take everything a little too far --

Case in Point:

I was at a horse show a couple years ago, and, well, more horse is a lazy bum. I carry a dressage whip while schooling just to remind him that he *does* have to go forward. While asking for a canter depart, he was being particularly belligerent and I whacked him to remind him to pay attention. After that, I see this woman with a camera practically running around the warm-up arena, taking pictures of my horse and I. One or two pictures is fine with me, but after what I would guess was 40 photos, I stopped and asked her what she was doing. She introduced herself as a member of PETA and asked me if I knew how absolutely cruel I was being to my horse...and also told me that she would be finding out my name to report me to the "proper authorities"

Needless to say, she got a small earful :-)

<Snickers behind her hand> I have a PETA story, but mine is second hand...

Imagine a little schooling dressage show in the middle of summer, you know, the kind you trailer in and tie... no stalls. Well, about an hour after the show began, out pops PETA from a mix of hippie vans and Mercedes. What were they protesting, you ask? Well apparently these crazy "Dress-age" people were BLINFOLDING their horses and HANGING them from their trailers to force them to behave. And of course there was the typical bits, spurs, whips, etc are all evil and should be banned. But imagine trying to explain to them what fly masks are for....

[RNB]

Sharks ain't kittens.

If you doubt me, go swimming in the ocean with a cut on your leg. If you make it back, be sure to let us know how cute and adorable the "sea kittens" are.

It's emotional manipulation designed to achieve a political goal, not the natural evolution of language. Turning animals into a caricature, using misinformation, outright lies, and convenient photo ops to ban the use of animals - even as pets.

These groups take advantage of the fact that most people live in urban areas and have no idea what nature is like or where their food comes from.

I'm reminded of the poor idiot who went out to live with grizzly bears, trying to show us how misunderstood they are. Then the bears ate him.

Wild and domestic animals are incredible, beautiful creatures that deserve humane treatment at all times. However, to assign them cute and cuddly names, misrepresent their attributes and true nature to an increasingly ignorant public - is a complete disservice to the animals. As well as people.

SPAR is not an independent entity separate from PETA. PETA, as well as HSUS are extraordinarily active in the school system. They help form these groups, they help fund them, they provide free or low cost publications, and they provide guidance and help with marketing.

When asked, none of these groups will come right out and say your right to own a horse should be taken away. Or your pet dog or cat.

In practice, every action they take results in bans or restrictions. A ban on ownership, a ban on an activity, and they take each activity or group individually.

But the goal is the same. Ban all ownership of animals, even as companions. They'll couch it in different terms, and they'll even say oh no - lots of our members own horses or dogs.

That's not the reality. None of these groups EVER advocate for anything unless it's part of their larger goal. Ban all use of animals, even as companions. Including horses. Even if you just want to trail ride or do dressage.

One of these days they'll target your sport or hobby or use of an animal. Maybe a breed ban. Maybe advocating for laws that deprive you of due process and allow them to easily seize your animal. It will happen. It's happening now.

It's a shame because there is plenty of good animal welfare work to be done. If these groups put their many many millions towards REAL attempts that garner REAL results, they would accomplish a great deal. Instead, it's ban ban ban.


Well said and completely agree!

As someone who has their international office in her backyard my blood pressure goes up every time I drive past their multi-million dollar building sitting on prime waterfront real estate. And because they are 'local' we get to see/hear more of the goings on than the average member.

My last experience with them was in 2007 when they were trying to ban all horse related activities on city property in Va. Beach. They stormed in and packed the city council chambers with a couple hundred people wearing t-shirts and/or buttons/stickers showing a horse with a circle and line though it. They had called the tv stations and were giving interviews. Their behavior was deplorable. They used children to gain sympathy to their cause by having the children, and only children, carry 3'x5' matted photos of dead horses. They had about two dozen members address council about how cruel it was to put a horse on a trailer or in a stall.

Not surprisingly out of the 200+ there was only one who had actually ever owned a horse.

Many of us in the horse community here also addressed city council....with factual information regarding horses and horse ownership. The city voted to allow horse related activities to continue.

For those who say that there are only a few radical members.....the people who screamed/booed/clapped the loudest, addressed council calling horse owners every name in the book, had to be asked by the mayor and security to be quiet/sit down or they would be escorted out....each and every one of them worked at that multi-million dollar waterfront office.

[MMorgan]

Sharks ain't kittens.

I'm reminded of the poor idiot who went out to live with grizzly bears, trying to show us how misunderstood they are. Then the bears ate him.



Excellent example, IMO, JSwan. Timothy Treadwell. (Although, speaking professionally, he appeared (to me, anyway) to have some serious personality pathology that separates him from most people).

[cowgirljenn]

I honestly can see no excuse for that video clip of the elephant trainer.

I didn't watch the video - I'm not watching anyone put out by PETA. I don't trust them not to doctor stuff. They've used OLD footage before and claimed it is what is going on now. They could easily do that with horses, too - there were some fairly harsh and even brutal methods of "breaking" horses used until not long ago. And now we know better methods. The same goes for all animal training/handling.

And if it wasn't doctored or wasn't old, then the people involved need to be charged/fired/gotten out of the business. It still doesn't mean the entire business is horrible. I'm ALL for cleaning up any animal business and getting rid of those who shouldn't be allowed to own a pet rock, let alone handle a living, breathing being. But I still refuse to throw the entire business out.

Did you know that on average, circus elephants live longer than those used in zoos and are healthier? Being kept in a cage in a zoo or a smaller enclosure in a wildlife park is so against their nature. With a circus, they get to move around, hang out with a group of elephants (instead of maybe one other), etc. There are circuses who retired elephants to their winter quarters only to have to take them back out on the road because they got -depressed- when they weren't traveling and with their group. I met a couple of elephants who were no longer performing but were still traveling with the circuses (at decent expense) because they didn't like being left behind (even with other elephants to keep them company).

Again, I'll agree there are probably bad people in the industry. Lets get rid of THEM - not all the others who really do care for their animals and take care of them. What we need are groups who focus on educating themselves about the animals and then working to make sure those handling them are trained, qualified and compassionate. And getting rid of those who aren't.

[tkhawk]

It is just odd for groups that started out wanting to better the condition of animals to end up as a group wanting to exterminate all domestic animals. It may be one generation and no more animals or whatever their slogan is, but that would esentially mean extinction for all domestic animals-if they achieve their goals.

Makes me wonder-maybe they realize this will never happen and so is simply a ploy for more fundraising. Welfare or rescue-the good ones at least require a lot of work, sweat, tears. No "sexiest vegetarian next door" or Pamela Anderson will be willing to shovel manure for years on an end and take care of abandoned animals foregoing all the benefits of an urban life.

So maybe this just gives them a cause-no work-all you do is campaign for end of all animal use-no shoveling manure, no hard work-just fund raise, think you are involved in a noble cause, hobnob with celebs and enjoy all the perks of a corporate job?

[equinelaw]

It wasn't doctored and wasn't old. I have no idea if they got rid of the people, but that was the kind of things that does not go unnoticed. It was bad.

Can't really do much about people being unwilling to watch it. They say nobody was fired, but if people who we can trust wont watch it and tell us that's true. . . then. . . . :confused:

[LQ]

PETA, ASPCA, and USHS. Its all about money. They use bleeding hearts to get the money.

[JSwan]

[QUOTE=RNB;3809021

For those who say that there are only a few radical members.....the people who screamed/booed/clapped the loudest, addressed council calling horse owners every name in the book, had to be asked by the mayor and security to be quiet/sit down or they would be escorted out....each and every one of them worked at that multi-million dollar waterfront office.[/QUOTE]

Wow. A double whammy of crazy. A city council meeting, which is always crazy, and PETA people to boot.

You know, that must have been pretty surreal. In a bizarre, Kafka sort of way.

We've got a little AR group up here - mini-PITA's - ahem - I mean PETA's. Kind of bite-sized. Not worth the effort to unwrap. :lol:

[Bluey]

---"There are circuses who retired elephants to their winter quarters only to have to take them back out on the road because they got -depressed- when they weren't traveling and with their group."---

That is interesting.
Best I remember, the circus we kept some of their animals in our stable put on a "mock" show, in the middle of the winter, for our little town.
They picked the animals from our school and other places they had them stabled for that show and the show was free to any comers.

They said at that time that they did it to keep the animals happy, that they didn't like it when they didn't get to work once in a while thru the whole winter.:yes:

[cowgirljenn]

If I watch it, I can't tell you if the guy was fired or not. As much as I wish I still got to go 'back stage' at the circuses, I don't have any 'ins' there anymore. When I did, it was part of a research project. I almost got to travel with the circuses - that would have been a story to tell. But the guys in the group ended up doing the traveling, and I did the visiting/working with them when they were within Texas or Oklahoma.


It wasn't doctored and wasn't old. I have no idea if they got rid of the people, but that was the kind of things that does not go unnoticed. It was bad.

Can't really do much about people being unwilling to watch it. They say nobody was fired, but if people who we can trust wont watch it and tell us that's true. . . then. . . . :confused:

[Brookes]

I was verbally attacked by a PETA freak on an airplane. How do I know she was PETA? Well it said it right there on her t-shirt ha! I was wearing a fur vest .

This little darlink gets onto the plane and walks up to me (I was already seated with my husband) and starts screaming at me calling me a viscious bloodthirsty murderer. "Killing animals for fashion isn't fashionable!!!" She was screaming at the top of her lungs pointing at me. The stewardess came running over to see what was going on.

I looked at the PETA chick and said "It's faux you twit". She then proceeded to reach out towards me to feel it. At which point my husband shot his hand up and knocked her hand away from me. "Don't even think about touching my wife".

The stewardess then informed the PETA twit to sit down or she would be removed from the plane. Yes the vest was faux fur. Obviously a very excellent imitation fur!! Even fooled the PETA freak.

I won't do bench shows with my dogs anymore because of some of the PETA issues we've seen in the past. I never leave them unattended at shows because of them.

I agree with those that believe that PETA is already making serious inroads into our right and I do mean right to "own" yup "own" animals. We have been fighting it here in California with dogs rights for some time now.

[equinelaw]

If I watch it, I can't tell you if the guy was fired or not. As much as I wish I still got to go 'back stage' at the circuses, I don't have any 'ins' there anymore. When I did, it was part of a research project. I almost got to travel with the circuses - that would have been a story to tell. But the guys in the group ended up doing the traveling, and I did the visiting/working with them when they were within Texas or Oklahoma.

One video is just about 15 minutes of a tiger weaving and pacing.

The other video is man screaming and cussing at all the elephant trainers to make them scream with pain, using electric prods, hooks, bats. .. its bad. here is no way to fake that and no reason for it to have been allowed. Its just the kind of guy you can imagine moving on to horses if he got fired. Fired would not be the proper response to his actions:mad: Unless you mean in the literal sense in hell?

[JSwan]

I looked at the PETA chick and said "It's faux you twit". She then proceeded to reach out towards me to feel it. At which point my husband shot his hand up and knocked her hand away from me. "Don't even think about touching my wife".




I kid you not - PETA is against faux fur. Because even lookalike fabrics, according to them, still make it acceptable to wear leather or other animal products. Evidently we're all supposed to go around naked.

Can't wear natural fabrics or materials because we're raping the planet. Can't wear synthetics because the chemicals destroy the environment.

Evidently fake boobies are excepted because Pamela Anderson could be considered a silicon based life form.

I'd have like to have been an Air Marshal on that plane. Folks nowadays might find themselves in a heap of trouble for screaming "murderer" on an airplane......

As for the video, I think every reasonable person agrees that torturing or abusing animals is criminal. Animal WELFARE laws are geared towards punishing criminals while still allowing humans to have animals as pets, or working stock, and also regulating the use of animals in experimentation (which hopefully one day will be obsolete)

Animal RIGHTS is a different concept. It takes us far beyond animal welfare and into a reality devoid of the solace and companionship of a pet dog or cat. Of the joy of a gallop across a field. It's a sterile existence where humans are kept apart from the natural world. View only from a distance. Dogs and cats... spay/neuter until they're extinct.

AR activists aren't animal lovers. Essentially they hate people. They don't care if the animals die, they just don't want us to have any contact with the animal, even if that contact is beneficial to both species.

The animal welfare advocate wants to retain the ability to own and use animals, to hunt or fish, but ensures the animals are treated humanely.

That's two very different concepts and goals, and I believe they are too different to have anything in common. AR has gone mainstream because they've co-opted the term "animal welfare", and now the two terms are used interchangeably. But they are not the same thing.

[equinelaw]

Right, but the video showed animal abuse and surely criminal abuse at that. Even as an animal welfare person myself, if that person was not publicly disowned by the Circus that paid him and they did not turn him into the police, or turned a blind eye to his actions, I would boycott them too.

Its bad. Its abuse. And it should not have taken a PETA spy to uncover it. If it did, then they did something good for welfare.

When I say "look at it" I do not mean look at it to excuse PETA. I mean LOOK AT IT and you would be freaking out too. If PETA has not shut them down, we all would. Its bad. Really bad.

[JSwan]

When I say "look at it" I do not mean look at it to excuse PETA. I mean LOOK AT IT and you would be freaking out too. If PETA has not shut them down, we all would. Its bad. Really bad.


I watch these videos and admit to wanting to reach through the monitor and strangle the perpetrators. No excuse. None. Felony conviction and put the bast**ds in the general population to be used as everyone's girlfriend.

[equinelaw]

Was that guy convicted? Because if he wasn't the COTH dogs can see to that!

I've only had DSL for a few months. Its all new to me. I tend to look at most videos posted just because for once I can, but that. . . that had to be known by others. Elephants screamining pain and nobody noticed??

[JSwan]

Elephants screamining pain and nobody noticed??

Probably for the same reason that a woman can scream for help while being attacked, be raped and murdered, all within earshot of dozens of residents.

And no one helped her.

[tkhawk]

I was verbally attacked by a PETA freak on an airplane. How do I know she was PETA? Well it said it right there on her t-shirt ha! I was wearing a fur vest .

This little darlink gets onto the plane and walks up to me (I was already seated with my husband) and starts screaming at me calling me a viscious bloodthirsty murderer. "Killing animals for fashion isn't fashionable!!!" She was screaming at the top of her lungs pointing at me. The stewardess came running over to see what was going on.

I looked at the PETA chick and said "It's faux you twit". She then proceeded to reach out towards me to feel it. At which point my husband shot his hand up and knocked her hand away from me. "Don't even think about touching my wife".

The stewardess then informed the PETA twit to sit down or she would be removed from the plane. Yes the vest was faux fur. Obviously a very excellent imitation fur!! Even fooled the PETA freak.

I won't do bench shows with my dogs anymore because of some of the PETA issues we've seen in the past. I never leave them unattended at shows because of them.

I agree with those that believe that PETA is already making serious inroads into our right and I do mean right to "own" yup "own" animals. We have been fighting it here in California with dogs rights for some time now.

I don't get the fur thing. Are they against fur use at all-or just as a fashion accessory. Do they expect eskimos to not wear fur too? Or for that matter anybody who faces cold winters?

Wow-do they just set the dogs "free"?:eek: Poor things-what do they do with them-just turn them loose in the streets?

[michigander]

Secondly, I'd be curious to know the real, objective details of how these circus animals--and for that matter the Lippizaners--are treated. How often do they get turned out, if at all? What do they eat? When do they get a break, if ever?

I'm not saying that I would flatly object to circus horses or traveling horse exhibitions or whatever; if the care conditions are sufficient, then it's not very different from a horse living and working at the racetrack for part/most of the year. That's not the life I'd choose for my horse, but I don't think I'd call it "cruel".

So who wants to chime in and tell us the behind the scenes story?


I'll chime in. I've both worked as a rider for Gary Lashinsky's Lipizzaner show and at MSU's Breslin Center for many, many Royal Hanaford Cirus performances and have seen what goes on behind the scenes.

First, as far as the Lips go they were all treated better than the riders. When I worked for them the horses came first. They did 4-9 shows a week but of course there are multiple acts in each show so no one horse was worked the entire time. On average a horse would do a 5-6 minute routine then sit back stage for 10-15 minutes then work again. Some horses worked more, some less but they didn't work any more than my dressage horse at home. They all had very regular vet, farrier and chiro work. They were supplemented and given adequan in necessary. While we traveled almost every day they each had a stall in a barn at night with fresh shavings. They were wrapped for travel and had the same stall in the trailer every trip so they developed relationships with their herd mates that was consistent and predictable even though the location changed daily. We fed timothy hay that we carried with us on the trailer and supplemented this with hay pellets and grain. We stopped every 3-4 hours on the trips to offer water and refill hay nets. The horses did have down times. I was able to gallop one of my lips on a private racetrack in California on a layover. We took them swimming in an equine pool just for fun. I was able to trail ride one of my mounts in the hills of Virginia while stabled at the Lexington (VA) horse park. Turnout was very infrequent but we were all very considerate of their mental health and did whatever we could to let them chill. The care falls to both the grooms and the riders as each rider is assigned 2 horses to be responsible for. This meant we cared for their individual tack, tracked any physical changes day to day, bathed them, wrapped and loaded our individual horses for the trailer and made sure they ate and were given plenty of opportunities to urinate during show. Did I see abuse - yes. One particular rider lost his temper more than once with his horse but I see that at every boarding stable and every training barn I've ever been at. The horses travelled from January - November. Some weeks there was more riding and less travel. Other weeks it was more travel and less work. We never slept until the horses were comfortable, never ate until they ate. Our head rider made sure the horses came first. Things may have changed under different people but I was never ashamed of the work we did or the choices we made.

I do not have as much familiarity with the circus animals besides what I saw backstage during probaby 30-40 performances. They seemed well cared for. The people definitely worked harder. I have very conflicted feelings about wild animals being asked to perform. I never liked bowing on the lips either as it seemed too unnatural as opposed to the dressage movements. I think cases of abuse need to be handled swiftly and strongly but on an individual basis not banning performances as a whole.

[Donna D]

I can't believe what I read here. Some just haven't got a clue. These PETA people are all over. I said years ago that they were stalkers. At horse shows, Clinics, fairs etc. In my past employment after comeing out of the Army SF I worked as an observer with the spooks. I have a trained Eye and I see the PETA people at shows and SPCA at the more local shows. You can tell the difference by what they wear. Most PETA people come from cities, you know what they wear. SPCA will tend to have on coveralls or some kind of jump suit. There out looking for you. I see these PETA scum at super markets. Collecting money from the old, the poor and the young that don't know any better. This one day I saw an od lady, trying to get some change out of her purse. She was asking if any of the money would go tward feeding stray cats. OH yes said the kid setting a the table drinking a big bottle of juice. I asked my employer if I should do something? She told me to get rid of the trash. I went over to the old lady and told her that my employer would donate to the feeding of the cats in her neighorhood. I showed my credentials and told them to be gone befor I came back out of the store. My employer was talking to the old lady and her son showed up. She gave the old lady, $500.00 and said that her son was to buy the cat food and she could spread it around how ever she liked. She does things like that, But shes no fool. PETA was gone when we came out. I am surprised at how many horse people cave in to PETA and give so much support to the SPCA. Their both trying to take away their rite to own horses. The SPCA is already dictating how you should feed a horse ,stable a horse and breed a horse. PETA is chasing you around to every show watching every move. These people are scum and its all about Money. These next few years will be tough on all that own animals. Everything these simple minded leaches want will come easier because of the new administration.

[MandyVA]

I'd like to see MSU's actual policy change before jumping to the conclusion that it would apply to the rodeo and lippizans.

Thank goodness there are plenty of elected officials that actually own horses. It's a lot harder to move through legislation to ban a practice that is widely embraced, as opposed to banning something like the circus that most policymakers have very little familiarity with. Just like in the Virginia Beach city council example.

We should all take this as a reminder to show ourselves to the public in the best possible light as horse-owners. Whenever I take my horse to a public place to ride, like the park, I am very nice to the joggers and bike-riders. I let all the little kids pet my horse, and their parents just love it. I'm just outside DC so this may be these parents' and childrens' only experience with horses. All those positive interactions help, IMO.

[silver2]

Do they expect eskimos to not wear fur too?
And be vegetarian!

I used to have the most irritating conversations about this with my roomates GF. She is a vegetarian and self-styled AR activist (leather boots kind) and seems to be physically incapable of understanding that soy is not somehow the answer to every one of mankinds problems.

[cowgirljenn]

One video is just about 15 minutes of a tiger weaving and pacing.

The other video is man screaming and cussing at all the elephant trainers to make them scream with pain, using electric prods, hooks, bats. .. its bad. here is no way to fake that and no reason for it to have been allowed. Its just the kind of guy you can imagine moving on to horses if he got fired. Fired would not be the proper response to his actions:mad: Unless you mean in the literal sense in hell?

Tigers do weave/pace - so do elephants - and horses - and me no bad days. *grin* I helped with a project studying transport of elephants, so we used a lot of circus elephants. I watched hundreds of hours of footage taken while they were in the trailers or train cars, and some weaved and some didn't. I don't believe there was any physical/measurable differences in stress levels between the two. It has been a few years..

And anyone using electric pods needs to have the same done to them. Fired isn't good enough, I agree. BUT I honestly think we have trouble getting abusers in circuses and some other industries prosecuted for abuse because of groups like PETA and HSUS. Instead of seeing the bad individuals exposed and prosecuted, they go after banning the entire industry. I wish they would focus their efforts on the individuals who need it. :(

[Nikki^]

Can you believe this propaganda?

http://www.goveg.com/feat/chewonthis/

Eating meat makes you fat??

Chicken, fish and yes even lean red meat is very good for you in moderation.

You can get fat by eating soy, beans, nuts, olives, potato chips and other things that aren't made from meat too!

Also, it's not being active and overeating that makes you fat!

Every package of chicken has poop in it?

This is why you wash and COOK the meat before eating!

Veggies have poop on them. This is why you need to wash clean them before eating. Mushrooms are grown with chicken poop!

Why doesn't someone tell whoever made this video that the last two major outbreaks of Salmonella were in tomatos and peanut butter!

[JSwan]

I take it none of you have seen the new (ish) video game that PETA put out for small children?

Another "knife wielding mom" killing a turkey. You get more points if you are meaner to the turkey than your murderer mother. Cut its guts out and blood spatters everywhere. It's got a "mother" wielding a bloody knife at the dead turkey.... etc.

For teenagers you say? Nope. Elementary schoolkids.

It's really sick.

[LQ]

I just read at the Free republic that at the HQ of PETA in Va. The records show that 90% of all the animals there were killed. Now I also heard that PETA is going to sue the airline that went into the hudson. They killed birds.

[MandyVA]

LOL LQ...what cause of action would that be?

[Pat]

I just read at the Free republic that at the HQ of PETA in Va. The records show that 90% of all the animals there were killed. Now I also heard that PETA is going to sue the airline that went into the hudson. They killed birds.

'cos, you KNOW that pilot went gunning for those damn birds...

Not surprised one lil' bit.

If I thought for a MINUTE that my 'omnivore' diet was the *real* reason I'm fat, yeah, I'd swear off meat right now!

FWIW, I had a math prof in college that had to have emergency balloon angioplasty (sp?) It was scary and serious, multiple blocked arteries. Did he smoke? nope. Was he over wieght? nope. (dude was a stick) Did he eat icky meat? nope. Life long vegatarian!! Seriously, life long as he was Hindu. Go figure.

PETA's crowning achievement is that they can take ONE tiny "fact" and twist it into what ever thier hearts desire. It's amazing. loonies.

[cowgirljenn]

If I thought for a MINUTE that my 'omnivore' diet was the *real* reason I'm fat, yeah, I'd swear off meat right now!


Oh yeah, if being a vegetarian was a guaranteed way to lose weight, I would switch diets in a heartbeat. :)

But then again, I don't like many vegetables, so I would replace all meat with cheese (I can't be vegan!) and pasta and get even fatter!

[Donella]

GOOD!
I have never been able to understand why anyone who cares at all about animals would give money to an organization whos main claim to fame is putting wild animals in extremely unsuitable and stressful situations. Do I need to remind you circus loving folk that Tigers and bears are WILD, undomesticated animals who are incredibly stressed when forced to live in small cages, ride bikes and jump through rings of fire in front of thousands of screaming people??? I doubt you would find one respected zoologist on this planet who would condone such treatment of these animals. What an incredibly degrading thing to do to such magnificent species. You couldnt pay me enough money to support this kind of discusting degradation.

Rodeos...well, I wont ever go there. The whole theme is that of man dominating terrified animal. And you want me to PAY to see that?

BARF.

[Bluey]

GOOD!
I have never been able to understand why anyone who cares at all about animals would give money to an organization whos main claim to fame is putting wild animals in extremely unsuitable and stressful situations. Do I need to remind you circus loving folk that Tigers and bears are WILD, undomesticated animals who are incredibly stressed when forced to live in small cages, ride bikes and jump through rings of fire in front of thousands of screaming people??? I doubt you would find one respected zoologist on this planet who would condone such treatment of these animals. What an incredibly degrading thing to do to such magnificent species. You couldnt pay me enough money to support this kind of discusting degradation.

Rodeos...well, I wont ever go there. The whole theme is that of man dominating terrified animal. And you want me to PAY to see that?

BARF.

Look, there are many things each one of us doesn't like, but if others do, why deny them their right to do as they wish and like whatever they want to like?

What makes you think, that, as per your profile, you are training and breeding draft horses and that will be spared when the animal rights fanatics come calling?
There are many people that think it is terrible to breed in today's world full of unwanted horses, much less horses that are so high maintenance, all for a hobby.

If those of us that want to keep rights as humans to use animals don't quit letting them divide us, who will be left to stand up for what we believe, when we have been beated down, one group at the time?

Again, remember that use is not abuse.
You may not like where any one animal finds itself in this world, a circus, a rodeo or on someone's breeding farm or even table, but as long as a basic standard of care is upheld to achieve our uses, that we don't live in perfect circumstances is the price we pay all of us, humans and other animals, for being alive, wherever we find ourselves.

Do you really don't know how not nice at all "living in nature" is?
Quality of life can be nice at times, terrible at many others and death, well, thank you, I prefer a shot or bolt to being eaten alive, as happens so often in that pretty, but definitively less than idyllic nature out there.

Remember, do look at the big picture, don't just focus only on what you don't like, or divided we will fall.

[Manes and Tails]

Good circuses and bad circuses, definitely.

On the elephant matter? Elephants are very intelligent. They demonstrate the basics of abstract thought. I think the reason zoo elephants die young is because they aren't getting enough mental stimulation...so maybe the answer is for zoos to do shows or similar with the elephants.

Here's a related example. I went to Mexico a few years back and somebody talked me into going swimming with dolphins at a private 'sea life' park. Despite the fact that the travel agent assured me these people were 'reputable', I was worried about what I would see.

Here's what I saw. An open harbor like area divided into several aquatic pens. Dolphins are notoriously difficult to persuade to breed in captivity.

The first dolphins I saw were three babies. Three under two year old juveniles. These people were successfully and regularly breeding dolphins, at a far higher success rate than the zoos. In addition to that they were successfully breeding manatee and had some small mammals they were breeding, all endangered species.

My reaction was 'Okay. How the heck are they breeding dolphins so well?'

Then they introduced us to the two dolphins doing the show. Now, little known fact. All the tricks we ask trained dolphins to do are based off of maneuvers wild dolphins do for courtship display.

Yep, you guessed it. All of their working teams were a male and a female...by *working* the animals together, they were encouraging mating activity.

They were fit, well fed, sleek animals...and as far as they were concerned it was all 'Let's play with the humans' time.

(The cutest thing, though, was watching a five year old human child standing in the shallows, hand to nose with a baby dolphin).

As for PETA. Some of those people have publicly admitted a desire to see humans become extinct. They're nutjobs. HSUS isn't much better.

I got into an argument with an AR type on another board. He pushed me to this statement:

Animals cannot have equal rights with humans, because they are not capable of taking equal responsibility with humans.

The smartest horse I have ever met is not capable of that, proven by the fact that the schmuck tried to jump a five foot post and rail and nearly impaled herself :P.

[equinelaw]

What most people seem to be missing in this case is that the animals really are being abused. There is a link to the video that made these students in this case boycott this circus.

If it's true "we all stand together or we all fall" then we are in danger. If we all get lumped together with these blatant horrific abusers then we all fall along with them. Its should be up to us to weed out the worst abusers, but PETA did the work here and now people just want to ignore the abuse even though this time they were right.

And yes, words just saying they should be punished are not enough. If this had not been labeled PETA or HSUS there is not a single person on this BB who would ignore or overlook the evidence presented.

So you send the message to PETA and all the others who have doubts that we stand by this people abusing these elephants and that makes us look as bad as the real culprits.

By refusing to even look at the evidence you have made us all to be complacent in training Elephants to perform by bashing them in the face with baseball bats, electrocuting them and whipping them with metal hooks.

THIS circus in THIS case did that and the managers had to know what was going on. Just because an AR group is attached to the exposure of the crime should not make us ignore it, defend it or excuse it. Bland condemnations of the individuals involved is not enough to distinguish us from them in the eyes of the public who some day will be deciding these matters.

I do not stand by the actions of this circus and I do not think it was an isolated incident. It should be those of us who care if we have animals that root this behavior out and boycott it--not the ones who want all animals gone from our lives.

[Tango14]

One man's cruelty is another man's right. What some people perceive as cruelty others see as perfectly acceptable.

I won't go to and don't support circuses that use animals in their acts. I have personal knowledge of how some of them operate both on the road and back at base where many animals are kept and bred. It is not pretty. It is sickening. I very much doubt there are any 'good' circuses which use animals - the very nature of it precludes humane treatment.

We can enter into a long discussion and debate about this but it isn't necessary. For instance, what do you imagine happens to those animals which cannot or will not be subserviant enough for a circus act?

To compare one cruel act with something else (for eg. horse sport to circus acts) is IMO disingenious and counter-productive. It will never cease to amaze me just how many people think animals are their possessions to do with what they will, like some inanimate object. Bloody cheek, all I can hope is either a special little spot reserved in hell for them or else reincarnation as the object of their cruelty.

I support the good things that any animal activist - belonging to any organisation or in their private capacity - does. I do not support the stupid things they do. Unfortunately this detracts from the often admirable and thankless work they do. I can, however, understand the utter frustration at banging one's head against a brick wall endlessly and getting no response and the actions that might result from that frustration. I don't condone everything but I understand it.

To those who think that the only answer is keeping and breeding animals in captivity, what is the point of certain wild animals being bred just to be used in canned trophy hunting as is the case with animals such as the Sable Antelope and white lions? I'd rather they went extinct. There are precious few zoos even who give animals a decent quality of life. There are fates worth than death.

[lauriep]

PETA, ASPCA, and USHS. Its all about money. They use bleeding hearts to get the money.


The ASPCA is NOT the same, nor do they have the same beliefs, as PETA and HSUS. Don't lump them together. ASPCA is truly an animal welfare organization. They want to eliminate abuse and ensure animals are treated humanely. They don't want to take away our pets or our dog, cat and horse shows. They are actually sponsors of the Syracuse Invitational and the GM Horsemastership Clinic.

Do your research before making such statements.

[Bluey]

Again, lets not confuse abuse, that no one wants, with proper use.

We humans live in cities, as kids spend many hours in a school, live in houses/apartments, work in offices, or going around and around in a tractor plowing, or part of an assembly line, or framing a house in the cold or heat.
We adapt and do what we have to do and undertsand that no one is living in a cave and spending all day looking for grubs, plants and maybe be lucky to find a rabbit to kill, or fish to spear.

Why do we think animals are not as adaptable and, with some minimum of quality of life condition, they are not living in acceptable situations, as long as they are the right ones for them, other than in the wild?

The only circus I know, that kept their animals at our riding school in the winters, took excellent care of them and trained them kindly, yes, even the elephant, that they really didn't train, just asked him what to do and showed how to and the elephant did it, just like we do horses.

There are abuses and we all need to work to stop them.
We don't need to let those that consider any other than what they think is a good life in nature tell us that, just because we keep animals in different conditions than nature, that is not acceptable.

I assume all here use horses.
Honestly, if you think that the only and best place for animals is out in nature, why do we keep any horses around?
Why do we now demand that others ignore that we do keep horses in less than natural conditions, but demand others do, for the animals they are caring for?

That is why I say, we need to decide if we want to be animal rights proponents and part of the banning of all use of animals as improper for the animals, which is a valid point, or get off the fence and admit that there are many ways of using or animals that, just as with human lives, may be less than natural and perfect, but are still perfectly fine for those animals.:)

I say we need to keep working so all in this world have a good a decent standard of living we can provide for, humans and all the other animals, but that doesn't has to be someone's idea of what is "natural" only.:yes:

[cowgirljenn]

What most people seem to be missing in this case is that the animals really are being abused. There is a link to the video that made these students in this case boycott this circus.


I don't think it is that simple. I think that most people here agree that abusers (whether of elephants, horses, humans, whatever) need to be weeded out and prosecuted.

I think most of us can agree that bashing anything to the point the poor animal is screaming or crying in pain is bad.

I think the problem is that many of us feel that PETA and HSUS aren't wanting to eliminate abuse. They want to eliminate ALL USE.

What we need is a welfare organization who is as well-funded as PETA and HSUS. A welfare organization that will fight for good, clear laws. An organization that will work to provide education and training to law enforcement, animal control officers, prosecuting attorneys and judges so that they can recognize and prosecute abuse in whatever species it occurs in. And we need an organization who will fund research into animal stress - including how to minimalize it. AND an organization that will remember that first and foremost, animals and humans exist together. And we 'serve' each other. (We provide care and human treatment to them. They provide food, companionship, pleasure and work to us).

An organization like that could do a lot of good. Now is that too idealistic of me? I don't know - I think HSUS started out that way and did so much good for so many years. But then they morphed and changed.

Without a lot of money, education, time, and dedicated people I don't know how we get this type of organization. And without it, I worry about what happens to animals. Groups like PETA and HSUS alienate law enforcement, good animal owners, etc. and make it -harder- to prosecute offenders. It is a huge problem.. how do we fix it?

[MandyVA]

Great post EL. This is a theme though with the "animals are property" folks on this board. They oppose banning horse slaughter for the very same reason--because the HSUS supports banning slaughter.

[tkhawk]

Hmm, I am anti-slaughter of horses and cats and dogs. If HSUS works for that great. But by law wether we like it or not-they are property. people are fighting for custody of dogs and cats in courts for divorces. So things change. but that doesn't change the fact that humans and animals are equipped differently-which is why I am into horses. The stuff I get from a horse, I don't get from humans. I love horses dearly and certainly don't think of them as property and they may think that they own me, but there is a difference between a human and a horse. Physically we may be similar-but in mental capacity to function in the modern world-there is a great difference.

[MandyVA]

Of course they're property, I was referring to the mentality that because they are property their owner can do absolutely whatever they want with them.

[Bluey]

Of course they're property, I was referring to the mentality that because they are property their owner can do absolutely whatever they want with them.

I don't know how you meant "the owner can do absolutely whatever they want".:confused:

No one can do whatever they want with anything, there are laws that give us rights and demand responsabilities to anything we want to do and anything we own or have in custody.

[cowgirljenn]

Of course they're property, I was referring to the mentality that because they are property their owner can do absolutely whatever they want with them.

I think the only people I've ever heard say sometime along the lines of 'they're my property, I can do anything to them I like' aside from those people we've forcibly taken starved horses from.

What people here HAVE said is that they feel that as long as the animal isn't being abused (starved, beaten, severely overworked), then the owners do have the right to do with them what they want: whether that be petting them and loving them, riding them, making them work for a living, or whatever.

[linquest]

The ASPCA is NOT the same, nor do they have the same beliefs, as PETA and HSUS. Don't lump them together. ASPCA is truly an animal welfare organization. They want to eliminate abuse and ensure animals are treated humanely. They don't want to take away our pets or our dog, cat and horse shows. They are actually sponsors of the Syracuse Invitational and the GM Horsemastership Clinic.

Do your research before making such statements.

Thanks for adding that! Not to mention ASPCA also started the h/j Medal/Maclay series. More info on ASPCA Equine Program here- http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=pro_equinecruelty

[MandyVA]

I think the only people I've ever heard say sometime along the lines of 'they're my property, I can do anything to them I like' aside from those people we've forcibly taken starved horses from.

What people here HAVE said is that they feel that as long as the animal isn't being abused (starved, beaten, severely overworked), then the owners do have the right to do with them what they want: whether that be petting them and loving them, riding them, making them work for a living, or whatever.

Up to, and including, dumping them at New Holland where they know exactly what will happen to them. And those of us that oppose that sort of treatment and want to stop it the only possible way we can are just trying to tell them what they can or can't do with their horses. Just like HSUS.

[Manes and Tails]

Except that HSUS is a rights organization. They are against greyhound racing.

So, when they have banned greyhound racing? Well, obvious next target is horse racing.

HSUS is the more subtle PETA, the saner one, and honestly? The more dangerous. PETA has its 'sea kittens' campaign. It's laughable and mockworthy.

HSUS looks like a sane animal welfare organization until you dig deeper.

And I would never, ever oppose or support anything because an organization I dislike has the opposite view.

I would not have a problem with equine slaughter for consumption...IF it was done correctly by the English 'knacker van' model, where the animal is killed (by the correct use of a handgun) on its owner's property and hauled dead. I have a huge problem with hauling horses hundreds of miles to slaughter them.

I have a problem with hauling *cows* hundreds of miles to slaughter them, and would like to see all animal slaughter take place as close to the farm gate as is economically feasible.

What I do not in any way support is the concept that animals should have 'human rights'. I utterly do not condone those who would, even, go as far as to place animas *above* humans.

However, I *do* believe that neglect and genuine abuse should be dealt with.

Those guys who treat the elephants like that? I just hope they get their comeuppance. In the form of a pissed off elephant, perhaps? Bad training is bad training is bad training.

So is good training. And I *have* seen good training at a circus. (and I got to shake hand to trunk with their elephant ;)).

What the AR types also forget is that for domestic horses, at this point, working with humans *is* natural. Feral horses may return to the wild easily, but it's amazing how many of those mustangs, correctly trained, make good riding horses...because it's still in their wiring from the generations their ancestors spent in human hands.

A properly socialized and trained domesticated horse reacts to humans with affection and (varying degrees of) submission. It may be as simple as we hand them food they don't have to spend hours grazing for. Or the fact that we're better at grooming them than another horse. But they know that we're on their side, as it were.

A badly socialized and trained horse can be highly dangerous. My trainer has a mare named Lark that I wish she would just get rid of. It's tried to trample me more than once. It got into it with a horse twice its size so badly the other horse took it down and pinned it. A week later, it picked *another* fight with the same horse. I have no clue how the previous owner treated that horse, but it sure wasn't right.

Did you know that they can't release circus bred tigers into the wild? They're too domesticated...because the circuses have been selecting for temperament, they've bred a breed of much more docile and pliable tiger. (The reputable circuses sell the more aggressive animals that aren't suitable for show work...to zoos).

[Tango14]

What I do not in any way support is the concept that animals should have 'human rights'. I utterly do not condone those who would, even, go as far as to place animas *above* humans.


Sorry, can't work out how to multiple quote! My comments in bold. I assume by this you do not think animals are sentient beings?

[/QUOTE] So is good training. And I *have* seen good training at a circus. (and I got to shake hand to trunk with their elephant ;)) [/QUOTE]

Forgive my scepticism but 'wow'. How long did you spend there? How involved were you? Do you really think they're going to show the public the 'real' side of circus act training?

[/QUOTE] Did you know that they can't release circus bred tigers into the wild? They're too domesticated...because the circuses have been selecting for temperament, they've bred a breed of much more docile and pliable tiger. (The reputable circuses sell the more aggressive animals that aren't suitable for show work...to zoos). [/QUOTE]

Actually they can't release the majority of circus bred tigers (and many other of the cat family) into the wild not because they're too domesticated but because the genetics are not pure. You cannot just release unknown parentage wild animals back into the wild.

To say that circuses have bred for temperament : they haven't bred for anything but the animal they want / need. If it doesn't fit the bill it is out.

To say that they've bred a much more docile and pliable (? I think you mean tractable...) tiger is complete nonsense. They haven't. Even after F4 or F5 Tigers are still wild animals as are all the big cats. They are by no means even nearly on the way to domestication. Spend time with one of them and you will soon discover that.

To say that the more aggressive tigers are sold to zoos: where do you get your information from? A reputable zoo doesn't buy tigers from circuses. They need purebred animals from KNOWN parentage. It might have happened once or twice but as a regular outlet for unsuitable tigers? NO WAY! There are only x amount of zoos and a plethora of unwanted circus-bred animals.

[Donella]

It isn't just about the training methods used here people. It is the fact that NON DOMESTIC animals are being kept in very confined, unnatural ways their entire lives for the sole purpose of giving a chuckle or two to some crowd on a sunday. Many of these animals are high intelligent and highly social, and they are denied what is natural to them on almost every level. There is no way to avoid this if you are using these animals in your performances.

This is totally unethical in my mind. I don't know if some of you just do not understand the extreme , innate differences between domesticated and non domesticated species and their needs or what, but ask any animal biologist or zoologist. Their needs in captivity are not even on the same level.

[Donella]

Look, there are many things each one of us doesn't like, but if others do, why deny them their right to do as they wish and like whatever they want to like?

Because, people are not the only sentient beings on this planet, thats why. So if someone wants to rape their horse, thats ok? If someone wants to torment the family dog for fun, thats ok? So , if this is how we want things, why have laws at all? After all, according to this concept, animals exist soley for the use and entertainment of human beings and have no value otherwise.

As far as I am concerned, and I am not sure what is so difficult about this idea, if an animal is not having it's basic needs met then it is something that should not be done. A non domestic animal never has it's basic needs met in a circus atmosphere, or in 99 percent of captive situations.


I realize that rodeo is too gray. I dislike it because the animals are not treated with any form of dignity whatesoever . I realize that there are other horsey activities where one could say the same, however, I cannot think of any other horse "sport" where the sole purpose is to aggitate and dominate the animal. So this is the problem for me, but I do realize that it is not an easy solution.

Anyways, I have a hell of a lot more respect for people who spend their sunday rallying around trying to put an end to the abusive practice of circus's than those who go and watch them.

[Tango14]

It isn't just about the training methods used here people. It is the fact that NON DOMESTIC animals are being kept in very confined, unnatural ways their entire lives for the sole purpose of giving a chuckle or two to some crowd on a sunday. Many of these animals are high intelligent and highly social, and they are denied what is natural to them on almost every level. There is no way to avoid this if you are using these animals in your performances.

This is totally unethical in my mind. I don't know if some of you just do not understand the extreme , innate differences between domesticated and non domesticated species and their needs or what, but ask any animal biologist or zoologist. Their needs in captivity are not even on the same level.

Great post Donella. Well said:yes:

[Tango14]

Look, there are many things each one of us doesn't like, but if others do, why deny them their right to do as they wish and like whatever they want to like?

Because, people are not the only sentient beings on this planet, thats why. So if someone wants to rape their horse, thats ok? If someone wants to torment the family dog for fun, thats ok? So , if this is how we want things, why have laws at all? After all, according to this concept, animals exist soley for the use and entertainment of human beings and have no value otherwise.

As far as I am concerned, and I am not sure what is so difficult about this idea, if an animal is not having it's basic needs met then it is something that should not be done. A non domestic animal never has it's basic needs met in a circus atmosphere, or in 99 percent of captive situations.


I realize that rodeo is too gray. I dislike it because the animals are not treated with any form of dignity whatesoever . I realize that there are other horsey activities where one could say the same, however, I cannot think of any other horse "sport" where the sole purpose is to aggitate and dominate the animal. So this is the problem for me, but I do realize that it is not an easy solution.

Anyways, I have a hell of a lot more respect for people who spend their sunday rallying around trying to put an end to the abusive practice of circus's than those who go and watch them.

Oooh, another great post:)
To me, rodeos fall into the same category as bear baiting etc.

[CarrieK]

The university can decide to what groups their facilities should be leased, fair enough. And, since it's not a democracy, it can base its decisions on whatever criteria, and the students and we alum don't have to approve, fair enough.

Except, now we have a land-grant, agricultural university caving to the very group it should stand up against. PETA, and it's little Sparty-PETA, after all, would very happily like to eliminate many of the animal programs that the university offers. After all, "better dead than captively bred" and all that.

I hate to bring up the concept of slippery-slope, and dominos, but that's exactly how this will play out. The circus is an easy target, because many people disapprove. Rodeo will be next, again because many people disapprove.

Not, of course, that the university will cave on rodeo, or polo, or its Arabian breeding program, or any of its courses of study. But will they cave on leasing their facilities to outside organizations? The fight will be on, because now it's given its opponent--and MSU should be an opponent of PETA--a victory.

[Bluey]

I didn't see the circus trainers working with their animals in their lay-off at our stables do anything but follow common sense, good training practices.
Far from anything being abusive and behind anyone's backs.

As someone said, good training is good, bad training is bad and that we will have in any we do in life.

As for the quality of life of those circus animals being bad, I sure didn't see the lion being unhappy in his box stall, he seemed rather content, as did all the other animals playing around our cross country fields.

I said before, nature is rather unkind, in many ways animals fare worse there, wild or not, than under human care.
We tend to forget that when all we hear is the animal rights stories where they find abuses.

Real, undisputable abuse needs to stop, we all agree there.
Just don't let extremists that don't really know animals tell you what is abuse or not.

Those that rather protest outside a circus tent that being in there with their family watching the circus, that by the way has much more than just animal acts, need to think that many others feel the same about what they do with their animals too.
There are people protesting racing, rodeo, endurance, eventing, heck, trail riding, any use of horses.

People should have the right to do what they want, as long as they follow existing laws, without being disturbed unduly, just as those that want to protest have the right to do so, as long as they also follow laws and don't disrupt other's rights.

I was talking to a HSUS person about their fight against animal agriculture, that they push to abolish and when questioned about the horse industry, the words were "they are next".

Just a warning.:eek:

[lauriep]

The university can decide to what groups their facilities should be leased, fair enough. And, since it's not a democracy, it can base its decisions on whatever criteria, and the students and we alum don't have to approve, fair enough.

Except, now we have a land-grant, agricultural university caving to the very group it should stand up against. PETA, and it's little Sparty-PETA, after all, would very happily like to eliminate many of the animal programs that the university offers. After all, "better dead than captively bred" and all that.

I hate to bring up the concept of slippery-slope, and dominos, but that's exactly how this will play out. The circus is an easy target, because many people disapprove. Rodeo will be next, again because many people disapprove.

Not, of course, that the university will cave on rodeo, or polo, or its Arabian breeding program, or any of its courses of study. But will they cave on leasing their facilities to outside organizations? The fight will be on, because now it's given its opponent--and MSU should be an opponent of PETA--a victory.

And this is the crux of the argument. They START with goals/achievements that are somewhat palatable to the animal loving public. But they don't stop there. That is just the hook. They get $$ donated with these not-too-bad acts, and then pursue their real agenda.

If you don't like public displays of animals, such as circuses and rodeos, don't attend. Voting with your pocketbook is the surest way of ending something, because if it isn't profitable, it won't survive. But work at realistic goals, like making slaughter more humane, factory farming held to higher standards, etc., rather than throwing in with organizations who will NOT stop at these goals, but try to ruin ALL sport with horses/dogs.

Great post, CarrieK.

[Tango14]

If you don't like public displays of animals, such as circuses and rodeos, don't attend. Voting with your pocketbook is the surest way of ending something, because if it isn't profitable, it won't survive.


Hmmm, so if I don't like what's happening in, for eg., Zimbabwe I must just not watch the news, turn a blind eye, and that will stop the abuse? I think not.

[tkhawk]

I love going to the circus and except certain acts, enjoyed the few rodeos I went to. I love my steak and pork chops too. Soon I am really thinking of taking up fox hunting too. I ride horses and have owned dogs and once I get my property will have dogs and cats too. So according to PETA, I should give up everything and become like the Buddha?

[danceronice]

Regarding tigers in zoos:

First: the question of whether to breed to save a species or save a subspecies is a hot question EVEN AMONG ZOOS. (In an aside, this applies only to accredited member institutions anyway. Your zoo down the street may well not be one.) The question is, do the SSPs focus on preserving pure subspecies, like the Sumatran, the Bengal, the Siberian, etc. and increase the odds of at least one failure? There are actually a lot of tigers in the world--there are NOT a lot of pure Siberians. That's why the loss of Tatiana in San Fran was such a tragedy (not that I'm faulting the police for shooting, but I do fault the boys killed and mauled in the incident.) She was part of the Siberian SSP. When you breed by subspecies losing even one fertile female is a serious problem. Or do they accept that subspecies cannot be maintained but the species itself can be through "hybridizing"? This is an issue for zoos and conseravtion groups and is not by any means a settled arguement.

Second: not every tiger or lion you see at the zoo (or don't see--many animals are off exhibit) is involved in a regulated breeding program (and if they're not, they're not being bred.) Our tigers were given to us by US Fish and Wildlife and were held as evidence in a dealer case. The male's vasectomied and the female's spayed. Our lions have all been fixed in the last fifteen years or so as well (we're down to one elderly male now.) He was a purchase, but because of a variety of factors he was not involved in a breeding program. Ex-circus animals can end up in zoos for breeding (if the records are right) or for display.

And again, with some animals, the circuses have had much more success than zoos--elephants in particular have much greater genetic diversity in circuses than zoos. No one is really sure why, but their breeding programs are more successful.

[S A McKee]

Hmmm, so if I don't like what's happening in, for eg., Zimbabwe I must just not watch the news, turn a blind eye, and that will stop the abuse? I think not.

You may have missed the point.
If you do not like the way a circus operates simply do not spend any money buying tickets. Suggest that your friends don't attend. Eventually the operation is no longer profitable and they go out of business.
Nothing to do with turning a blind eye. Loss of financial support is a simple but effective way to express displeasure ( and it doesn't cost you any money)

[gabz]

Carrie K posted some of my thoughts.

Regardless of good/bad PETA, HSUS, etc. etc. this is happening on the campus of a university that teaches Agricultural, aka LIVESTOCK management and Veterinarian courses. This campus has, in addition to the Breslin center, a pavilion that is rented out for the next 5 years SOLID for livestock events. Including huge numbers of horse shows. MSU has its own horse breeding line. and I'm sure cattle, sheep, hogs, etc. etc. MSU conducts studies on all manner of health issues for livestock.

So what concerns me is that the University would take this stance. Which opens the door, I think, to other livestock events being curtailed and/or stopped by this group.

I've attended the nearly week-long Draft Horse show and sale in February that is held every year. It is attended VERY HEAVILY by Amish families from throughout the Midwest. I'm SO trying to imagine a confrontation between this PETA group and the Amish.... :eek:

[Manes and Tails]

Carrie K posted some of my thoughts.

Regardless of good/bad PETA, HSUS, etc. etc. this is happening on the campus of a university that teaches Agricultural, aka LIVESTOCK management and Veterinarian courses. This campus has, in addition to the Breslin center, a pavilion that is rented out for the next 5 years SOLID for livestock events. Including huge numbers of horse shows. MSU has its own horse breeding line. and I'm sure cattle, sheep, hogs, etc. etc. MSU conducts studies on all manner of health issues for livestock.

So what concerns me is that the University would take this stance. Which opens the door, I think, to other livestock events being curtailed and/or stopped by this group.

I've attended the nearly week-long Draft Horse show and sale in February that is held every year. It is attended VERY HEAVILY by Amish families from throughout the Midwest. I'm SO trying to imagine a confrontation between this PETA group and the Amish.... :eek:
Actually they can't release the majority of circus bred tigers (and many other of the cat family) into the wild not because they're too domesticated but because the genetics are not pure. You cannot just release unknown parentage wild animals back into the wild.

REPUTABLE circuses keep studbooks the same as zoos do. I am not talking about backyard circuses here, but the large ones with large breeding programs. They need to keep records...it's just common sense.

To say that circuses have bred for temperament : they haven't bred for anything but the animal they want / need. If it doesn't fit the bill it is out.

And what is the animal they want/need? One that responds to training. That's temperament. What else could it be?

[Tango14]

You may have missed the point.
If you do not like the way a circus operates simply do not spend any money buying tickets. Suggest that your friends don't attend. Eventually the operation is no longer profitable and they go out of business.
Nothing to do with turning a blind eye. Loss of financial support is a simple but effective way to express displeasure ( and it doesn't cost you any money)

Nonsense. There are far too many asshats out there who attend circuses and support them.

[Donella]

As for the quality of life of those circus animals being bad, I sure didn't see the lion being unhappy in his box stall, he seemed rather content, as did all the other animals playing around our cross country fields.

What an IGNORANT statement. Wow. You see an animal that has spent it's whole life in captivity for a weekend, you look in it's cage and you can just say "oh, he is happy, he is content, there is nothing wrong here". Uhm, what do you expect...for him to be picketing and sobbing?? Can ANYONE who owns animals really be this clued out? No wild, non domesticated animals is content living in a small cage, denied all of his natural insticts and social behavios and forced to exhibit totally unnatural behaviors and movements in front of thousands of human beings.

Wow, no wonder some of you people see nothing wrong with the circus. You really just have no concept of animal behavior/needs outside of that demonstrated by your cattle dog or horse.

[tkhawk]

As for the quality of life of those circus animals being bad, I sure didn't see the lion being unhappy in his box stall, he seemed rather content, as did all the other animals playing around our cross country fields.

No wild, non domesticated animals is content living in a small cage, denied all of his natural insticts and social behavios and forced to exhibit totally unnatural behaviors and movements in front of thousands of human beings.

.

Is this an assumption on your part or did you do a thesis or a study on the mental state of circus animals?

[tkhawk]

Nonsense. There are far too many asshats out there who attend circuses and support them.

So the defnition of an asshat is someone who does something you do not approve of?

[Bluey]

As for the quality of life of those circus animals being bad, I sure didn't see the lion being unhappy in his box stall, he seemed rather content, as did all the other animals playing around our cross country fields.

What an IGNORANT statement. Wow. You see an animal that has spent it's whole life in captivity for a weekend, you look in it's cage and you can just say "oh, he is happy, he is content, there is nothing wrong here". Uhm, what do you expect...for him to be picketing and sobbing?? Can ANYONE who owns animals really be this clued out? No wild, non domesticated animals is content living in a small cage, denied all of his natural insticts and social behavios and forced to exhibit totally unnatural behaviors and movements in front of thousands of human beings.

Wow, no wonder some of you people see nothing wrong with the circus. You really just have no concept of animal behavior/needs outside of that demonstrated by your cattle dog or horse.

Sorry, maybe I made myself not clear.
That lion was in a box stall in the stables I took care of, so I didn't just see him once, but many times a day.
The circus was stationed with us for over two months that winter.

You may think a lion is only happy in the african savannah, but I will disagree.
Animals, even wild ones and I don't even know if he ever lived wild, he may have been raised in captivity, adapt to any situation, just as people do.

That is what so many people don't understand, that animals, like people, can and do adapt to living any one way they have to.
We don't want to abuse anyone, people or animals and we have laws to try to prevent abuse.
Normal life is not always idyllic, sunny and in a heavenly place.
For that lion, believe me, he was as happy as a lion may be, didn't pace, was alert and interested in all that was going on.

Now, the horses at first did take a little to get used to the lion smell and that he was obviuously strange, but they also got used to him.:yes:

[cowgirljenn]

No wild, non domesticated animals is content living in a small cage, denied all of his natural insticts and social behavios and forced to exhibit totally unnatural behaviors and movements in front of thousands of human beings.


So, do you own horses? I ask because keeping horses in stalls or limited pastures, removing them from harems, and riding and training them isn't at all natural, either. By training a horse and riding him, we deny him of his natural instincts and natural social behavior. How's that better than training a circus animal to perform?

Wow, no wonder some of you people see nothing wrong with the circus. You really just have no concept of animal behavior/needs outside of that demonstrated by your cattle dog or horse.

Exactly what is your training in animal behavior? I'm a behaviorist, with a Ph.D. in ethology. I've studied circus animals as well as domestic breeds. I do have a little education, training, and experience behind my statements.

[tkhawk]

You may think a lion is only happy in the african savannah, but I will disagree.
Animals, even wild ones and I don't even know if he ever lived wild, he may have been raised in captivity, adapt to any situation, just as people do.



That is so true. Animals adapt-domestic animals as well as wild . Wild animals are constantly having to adapt-from drought, to man made barriers and what not. Abuse should never be tolerated-circus , horse training or even human abuse. People beat up on their spouse-does not mean marraige needs to be outlawed.

I love the wild-but part of the wild is that it is a cold , cruel place-for preadators and prey alike. I saw this and it took me a while to get over it. Just painful to watch-but it happens in the wild. A pack of hyenas going after a full grown lioness. Just awful. Don't watch if you are easily upset-I am generally somewhat resistant, but it was just painful for me and certainly not the idyllic "wild" one sees on Disney.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JF6q67NQk4

I would not want any of my critters be turned out to the wild . A lot of what we see is our perceptions. Stuff like in that rodeo thread going-that is abuse or even that elephant training thread-that needs to be stopped-not the entire sytem be thrown out.

[Manes and Tails]

The big circus I saw had their tigers, after the show, in a cage that was...oh, not much smaller than my trainer's arena!

It was made out of modular panels so it could be folded up and tossed on a truck, and they were all in there together in a big sleepy tiger-pile.

The horses were in box stalls in a tent, with the elephant in a much larger stall at the end.

The sea lions had what could best be described as a giant inflatable swimming pool...it was only slightly shallower than the pool in the National Zoo's sea lion enclosure and about the same size.

The only one you could *maybe* argue was in a small space was the elephant, and given how hard it is to build a fence to hold one of them... The stalls the horses were in were exactly the same size as the box stalls at my current trainer's barn.

On the other hand, I saw tigers at a private zoo in Florida in cages that were barely large enough for them to turn around in. I know which tigers had the better living quarters.

Another circus I went to was the Moscow State, and they only had horses (The UK wouldn't let them bring their bear because of rabies laws).

That was my worst circus experience. They were doing stunt riding at full speed in a banked ring, and my mind went 'That is SO dangerous'.

About two minutes after that, a horse went down, hard, on its side. Fortunately, the rider managed to scramble clear and the animal picked itself up after a couple of minutes. It wasn't limping or anything, but I still think *that* act was a bad idea. Apart from any risk to the animal, the performer could easily have ended up with a badly broken leg.

[lauriep]

Nonsense. There are far too many asshats out there who attend circuses and support them.

Well, Tango, THIS asshat DOES occasionally go to a circus, aquarium, zoo, etc, and I enjoy them. I happen to be among those that think that these exhibits bring valuable awareness to non-animal people about non-pet animals. Do I think they need to be regulated, and watched for cruelty/abuse? Of course, and the bad ones should be shut down. But not all are bad and shouldn't all be tarred with the same brush.

But more importantly, involving PETA/ALF, HSUS or any of the other fringe crazies only opens ALL animal (read HORSE) activity up to trouble from them and if they sense a chink in the armor, you can bet that our horse lives will change.

And many smaller shows have already closed because of lack of attendance.

[Tryin2Event]

SPAR and PETA were huge contributers to Barack Obama's campaign.

When they come for my animals they'll have to pry the lead rope from my cold, dead fingers.

[MandyVA]

Well, Tango, THIS asshat DOES occasionally go to a circus, aquarium, zoo, etc, and I enjoy them. I happen to be among those that think that these exhibits bring valuable awareness to non-animal people about non-pet animals. Do I think they need to be regulated, and watched for cruelty/abuse? Of course, and the bad ones should be shut down. But not all are bad and shouldn't all be tarred with the same brush.

But more importantly, involving PETA/ALF, HSUS or any of the other fringe crazies only opens ALL animal (read HORSE) activity up to trouble from them and if they sense a chink in the armor, you can bet that our horse lives will change.

And many smaller shows have already closed because of lack of attendance.

This is what we call "paranoia." Seriously, one school bans a circus with documented abuse and you conclude that if we don't all condemn that action, we are silently agreeing with the ultimate end of all animal use? If you really want to separate horse ownership from abusive circuses you should be joining those who are CONDEMNING THIS ABUSE. Don't assume that the public lumps horse owners in with elephant torturers. There actually is a difference here. Just because there is a PETA stamp on this university's action doesn't mean it was the wrong course of action.

[Pferd51]

There go your pets.

[catknsn]

I am so tired of the ridiculous "slippery slope" arguments. Trust me, I am sure there are people out there right now saying that if we try to police bad trainers, you know, the jaw-breaking kind, the next thing you know horseshows will be illegal.

Nonsense. Complete nonsense.

PETA has some wackos in it. So does the USEF. So does any breed organization you might care to name. Or any political party. Or any cause of any kind, anywhere. Everybody has some wackos. It doesn't mean the whole group is like that or that everything the whole group does is negative.

PETA puts forth its point of view and sometimes they succeed in convincing others. There's really nothing to fear here. They're not going to make hamburgers illegal tomorrow. College campuses are historically weak and give to pressure from any left-leaning special interest group. Go to any college and try to put out a conservative alternative newspaper, as I did during college. Heck, I'm surprised I didn't get expelled!

Just because something becomes illegal on a college campus does not mean it is at risk of becoming illegal in larger society. Remember that college that had a rule that you had to specifically ask a woman's permission to so much as kiss her? I rest my case...

[danceronice]

Uh...those people on a college campus are tomorrow's citizens. What, are you working for PETA? You cannot give them an INCH on anything. PETA does not have "some wackos", it is made up of wackos with a radical agenda and supports groups that are even further out--the people who don't have a problem with burning down houses or firebombing research scientist's cars.

"Oh, it'll never get beyond a few crazies" is how it starts. You have to stop the wackos while they're still at the corrupting college students stage because those college students become voters.

[nlk]

I hate to say it if it already hasn't been mentioned but this could lead to a ban on any livestock show held there at the pavilion! I hate to say it like this but people who are that radical in their views of animals would likely feel the same of riding!!

Sorry if this is already posted but I read this and that was the next thing that popped into my head!

[lauriep]

I am so tired of the ridiculous "slippery slope" arguments. Trust me, I am sure there are people out there right now saying that if we try to police bad trainers, you know, the jaw-breaking kind, the next thing you know horseshows will be illegal.

Nonsense. Complete nonsense.

PETA has some wackos in it. So does the USEF. So does any breed organization you might care to name. Or any political party. Or any cause of any kind, anywhere. Everybody has some wackos. It doesn't mean the whole group is like that or that everything the whole group does is negative.

PETA puts forth its point of view and sometimes they succeed in convincing others. There's really nothing to fear here. They're not going to make hamburgers illegal tomorrow. College campuses are historically weak and give to pressure from any left-leaning special interest group. Go to any college and try to put out a conservative alternative newspaper, as I did during college. Heck, I'm surprised I didn't get expelled!

Just because something becomes illegal on a college campus does not mean it is at risk of becoming illegal in larger society. Remember that college that had a rule that you had to specifically ask a woman's permission to so much as kiss her? I rest my case...

Live with your delusions, then. And then live with what happens in the future. Thanks in advance.

[Bluey]

Live with your delusions, then. And then live with what happens in the future. Thanks in advance.

The trouble is that if we don't speak up, it is the rest of us that will have to live with the consequences of what crazy ideas a few extremists want for our future.:(

[lauriep]

Oh, speak up!! By all means! That is NOT what I am saying! Get involved if you feel something is wrong. Just don't do it through the auspices of organizations such as PETA and HSUS. Doing that will eventually have unintended consequences for the rest of the animal loving world. There are many good, well-intentioned organizations that you can turn to for help.

[Manes and Tails]

Laurie, you are absolutely right.

[hammondcrazy@yahoo.com]

Hello what is it like to work for Gary Lashinsky?? and how is it like when you first start? Do you have some time to learn the choreography? are they nice people to work for?? I am going to audition for a position with them on Saturday. What is the audition ride like? I have done a few with normal stables but this is the first time I am going to try for a performing show type situation. Please let me know thanks Mike.

[trafalgar]

I love the circus, at least the big circuses which I assumed policed themselves really well. I found these videos very depressing and I may not go back to a circus but I would like more info. Was that horrible man a Rinling employee or the other Carson I believe, circus employee. I do think it is a terribly unatural life for a wild animal but not so bad for horses as long as they are cared for. Being on the road is not exactly good for horses but it doesn't have to be bad either. In looking at some of the funny or moving videos that Cothers have put on thier posts I have occasionally moved on to other videos and seen some terrible things that I cannot believe are on there. Because everyone I know takes such good care of thier horses I sometimes get mulled into complacency about the treatment of animals outside the perameters of my own life. It is impossible for all animals to be trated as most of us treat ours: as long as the others are recieving good care with no abuse, I think that is OK in our imperfect world.

[MistyBlue]

Wait, this college has an IHSA team and they think Lippizan shows are cruelty????????????? :eek:
No offense against IHSA teams but...around here most avoid those shows like the plague. The care and condition of the horses from most colleges is very sub-par. Very. As in I haven't seen so much head bobbing in a ring unless it had a mosh pit too. :no:
And as for Peta...they're terrorists. Domestic ones. Run by wackadoos.
And that's as nice as I can get for Peta. And the buddies they fund, ALF.
Of course they kill more animals than anyone else...but I guess that's okay as they sucker in the naive.

[BuddyRoo]

This was an older post....I attended the Lipizzaner show at MSU Pavillioni in Feb this year (after the start of this post)......no picketers and it went off per the usual.

[MistyBlue]

Ahhh, good catch Buddyroo! Didn't even notice that.