What is a Go?

[rizzodm]

I am not sure if that is even the correct spelling. My trainer rode the horse I am riding last night and said she is going to put her in a go and let her play tug of war by herself. I know it is something that goes over the poll but I really don't know what it is and what it is going to accomplish. Anyone know?

Dawn

[Bronte]

De gogue?????

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gogue

[rizzodm]

Thanks, I think that is what it is. I am riding a horse that has been retired. She was retired because her owner moved up through the levels and changed mounts to do so. I have been riding her for a few months now and my trainer wants her going more round. She has been pulling alot when asking for collection. Anyone ever bring an older horse out of retirement, she is 24 and was an eventer. She hasn't been used regular in close to five years. They tried to use her as a lesson horse but she was not tollerant of having different riders and sporatic work. I have been riding her regular for about three months now. I love riding her and she has awesome ground manners she just pulls on me when I ask her to collect. Any thoughts?

Dawn

[Eclectic Horseman]

Dawn-
At that age (24) she probably needs considerable maintenance, such as hock injections and monthly IV Legend injections. Even a well trained, cooperative, willing horse will hang on the forehand in order to avoid joint pain.

If she is getting the sorts of maintenance that I mentioned, then she may need an anti-inflammatory drug. It is also possible that her resistance behaviors have now just become habit. If that is the case, then you need to work on your half halts to get her to rebalance back and carry herself.
Good luck.

[caevent]

I think the gogue is a great tool, but I would use it very carefully. Has the mare had a full veterinary check-up? I wouldn't be surprised if she had hock issues, due to her age, as well as weakness through her hind end and back due to lack of use. When the back end is either sore or weak, the horse is going to fight through the rider's hand to compensate.

If everything is okay physically, I would first get her used to working for short periods of time in a chambon, to make sure she's okay with feeling poll pressure. Once she's happily giving and stretching in the chambon, you can eventually progress to the gogue. Make sure you take your time. Five years off is a long time, especially for an older horse.

Good luck!

[Cowgirl]

I agree with what the other posters are advising regarding a veterinary assessment and maintenance. I have a 24 year old retired grand prix horse. At that age, generally, they require significant maintenance and it would be very rare indeed if they did not need it. I would not use a de gogue before seeing whether the reason she will not come round easily is because of joint pain--to me it sounds likely that she has pain in the hocks. In order to round up correctly, she has to be stepping more under her body and lifting her back. It will do you no good if you force her neck round if it causes her pain to round up behind.

[InsideLeg2OutsideRein]

Hm. With a horse of that age and history, I'd be hesitant to use antying on her until a certain level of fitness (and soundness) has been established.

[rizzodm]

Thanks. We will proceed slowly. I dont think she is uncomfortable in any way but I will bring it up to my trainer.

Dawn

[merrygoround]

Another thought! Any degree of collection ( which I suspect isn't really what you are after), takes a degree of fitness. First she must take a steady contact, when that happens you can put her round, (which I suspect is what you are trying for), then after a lot of work, you can ask her to engage and collect. ;)

At 24 it would take her a whole lot longer to get fit.:yes: And any soundness issues will get in your way.

I would be very cautious with the de Gogue.

[Vesper Sparrow]

Hm. With a horse of that age and history, I'd be hesitant to use antying on her until a certain level of fitness (and soundness) has been established.

With my coming 25 year old, who has one iffy hock but isn't too bad elsewhere according to the chiro, who is on supplements and who was previously off work for about the same period of time as the OP's horse, it has taken over a year to get any kind of topline so that she can round up and come onto the bit. I certainly don't ask for it all the time--only when she feels like she's ready to give it to me. I don't think it would be fair to force her to do it or demand it from her constantly. In any case, force doesn't work with my mare.

[goeslikestink]

Dawn-
At that age (24) she probably needs considerable maintenance, such as hock injections and monthly IV Legend injections. Even a well trained, cooperative, willing horse will hang on the forehand in order to avoid joint pain.

If she is getting the sorts of maintenance that I mentioned, then she may need an anti-inflammatory drug. It is also possible that her resistance behaviors have now just become habit. If that is the case, then you need to work on your half halts to get her to rebalance back and carry herself.
Good luck.

you beat me to it, maybe your instructor doesnt know how to execute the half halt stride
this is a stride that used in all transistions as in a a basic movement to inform the horse soemthings going to change working the horse from butt to poll to a relaxed yaw by lenghtening and shortening your stride using the half halt stride in every single transition
look here i explain how to perform the half halt stride http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=178116

[slc2]

gogue.

Some horses, after many many years of being ridden on the forehand on a very loose, long rein, are very resistant to carrying themselves. OCCASIONALLY you find someone who through very brief and very clever use of an appliance like a gogue, get through that difficult situation. It's not ALWAYS the right thing to struggle along with them with just the bridle, sometimes an appliance can help, but it needs to be viewed as an appliance, and a very very temporary situation. It's more just to change the horse's thinking than a permanent piece of training equipment; otherwise it becomes a crutch.

The trouble with the gogue is that some people use it to 'set the horse's head' so it 'looks like a dressage horse', and that's where the trouble begins. If I was working with a trainer, I'd like to work with one who only resorts to appliances in very, very difficult cases.

Most good, skilled dressage trainers can get on a horse the student struggles for months with, and just get them moving and they go around correctly without any struggle, just because the trainer rides more correctly, and they very rarely resort to appliances. That's the ideal.

[ESG]

Three months' work isn't going to get an out-of-shape 24 year old fit enough to collect. Any "trainer" worth her salt would know that. :rolleyes:

Stop with the gadgets, put the mare on some joint supplementation, and let her build up muscle before you ask for collection. In case your "trainer" didn't tell you, collection requires strength; something an older horse without proper musculature isn't going to have.

Shame on both of you for resorting to gadgets. Poor horse. :no:

[1faith]

Ditto slc2


I think to often people result to gadgets rather than taking the time to devlope the horse properly. Properly used for a short period of time certain " gadgets" can be helpful.

I often wish ALL accessory equipment would be banned , not allowed, out lawed and the let us see how many people can "train" a horse.
Sorry for the rant

[slc2]

I don't agree with you. Even the Spanish Riding School has draw reins. The point is, there, the draw reins spend most of their life, in the tack room, gathering dust. The point also is that most of the time, the trainer just rides the horse through the problem, and doesn't need the side reins. The more skilled he is, the better he is at judging when such things are needed, but also, the less he needs them.

No, I don't want to see them banned. What I'd rather see is a vaccine that imparts experience, sense, knowledge, and stuff like that. As far as I know, research on such a vaccine is still in progress ;)

[Equibrit]

On "Gadgets" http://www.sustainabledressage.com/tack/gadgets.php

"I personally find it incomprehensible, that riders think themselves less equipped for making the horse stretch forward-down-out from straightening, driving and rein manipulations, than a simple string that gives mechanically at the right angle. I mean, they seem to have no problem with the fact that this effect is created by something which affects only the head of the horse, so it's not a noveau "Look, Mama, no hands!" kind of thing. It's "Look, Mama, this string can do what I can't!" One can only hope that these rides realise their need for further education and the danger in thinking that an auxiliary rein can ride for you. A couple of tied knots on a string will not cure neither a painful back nor poor education."

[ToN Farm]

Three months' work isn't going to get an out-of-shape 24 year old fit enough to collect. Any "trainer" worth her salt would know that. :rolleyes............]
Shame on both of you for resorting to gadgets. Poor horse. :no:
IMO, shame on people that bring 24 year old horses out of retirement and ask them to work at all.

[CatOnLap]

What ESG said. "Three months' work isn't going to get an out-of-shape 24 year old fit enough to collect. Any "trainer" worth her salt would know that. "

It would take a minimum of 4-5 months of careful daily work to bring a sound 24 year old horse back from 3 years off, into condition enough to sustain the carrying power required of the hind end, back and loins, to collect.

ANY 24 year old horse is going to have a degree of fusion in the hock joints (and other places) that will make true collection more difficult. While not every advanced elderly horse requires medications or injections to perform, all require careful warmups and a regmimen that keeps them fit. Once they lose fitness it is harder to bring them back around than with a younger horse. My sound 20 year old FEI trained horse requires no maintenance except being regularly ridden, but I would never leave him off more than a month as it would take several months to bring him back.

The horse's defence to being unfit/sore/stiff is to go on the forehand, and when asked with the hands/reins to collect, to bear down on the reins in order not to carry more weight behind because it's hard and may hurt. This may feel like pulling, but a horse can only pull if you are also pulling. More riding from the seat to encourage the hind carrying power and more lateral work to supple and strengthen the whole animal would be of benefit before asking for collection again.

I would be concerned that any gadget connected to the bit in this situation (gogue, side reins, draw reins, etc) may have the effect of deadening the mouth or backing off the contact. That is a much harder problem to correct than simply fitting the horse up and making her more supple.

[slc2]

I don't agree in principle. A little light exercise is good for horses, even when they're older.

What's BAD for them is change, taking them out of retirement after years, and trying to make them do something they can't do and have never done, and then abdicating responsibility for those decisions and pointing the finger at the trainer, who wants to use a gogue on them to force their stiff old muscles into a position they've never been in.

[Dune]

Ditto ESG. (where have you been, woman??);)

[Thomas_1]

First and foremost I'd suggest to the OP that whenever your trainer says something you don't understand that you ask what he means and say you don't know. Also ask for an explanation if you don't appreciate what he/she's talking about.

To do anything else gives the trainer a wrong impression - they'll think you know more than you do. And you won't enhance your knowledge.

If it was a de Gogue then the theory is that it helps to lighten a horse, make him soft, sensitive and responsive. Now I'm personally not in to gadgets and devices that are merely just a "quick fix" so I wouldn't use one... ever... but the aim and effect is to raise the base of the neck, free the shoulders, produce greater engagement and flexion of the hock and encourage the muscled development of a rounded top-line. The theory is that it encourages athleticism and correct muscle development. But it is not a solution in itself and IMO is never to be used by a novice rider or even a more experienced rider unless they've extensive experience training horses or are working with an experienced trainer. Even then I personally have doubts that it's the right thing to do.... but I understand that sometimes needs must and that some do what's necessary to attain the end point quickly and/or more easily. So many people think they can find a gadget or a bit and that it is the answer to everything and from the description of the circumstances and context here, I'm not convinced it's what is required or that it's appropriate. I also think it's a little much to expect a veteran retiree to work with athleticism and be fit enough to have the correct musculature to work well. If it's as described by the OP then I think it's just wrong to consider a De Gogue. All this talk about "pulling when you try to collect" just rings alarm bells to me. It takes 2 to pull and it sounds to me like the rider is trying to force the head in and the horse is resisting that. Engagement doesn't come by pulling the head in!

Too often folks use something while not fully understanding the concept of what they are trying to achieve. If a horse needs a de Gogue, then by all means it might be right to use one. But personally speaking, I'd want to make sure I'd addressed other things first and with what is described here I'm thinking a De Gogue won't do much until other things like fitness etc are addressed. Veteran retiree..... out of it for 5 years..... not even regularly ridden..... not really going to happen! So it's wrong.... so wrong.

But I don't know the full facts and would suggest the OP ask "what", "what for" and "why" and "what else" or "how else".

[goeslikestink]

Three months' work isn't going to get an out-of-shape 24 year old fit enough to collect. Any "trainer" worth her salt would know that. :rolleyes:

Stop with the gadgets, put the mare on some joint supplementation, and let her build up muscle before you ask for collection. In case your "trainer" didn't tell you, collection requires strength; something an older horse without proper musculature isn't going to have.

Shame on both of you for resorting to gadgets. Poor horse. :no:

execellent post why didnt i think of that,,, echo you 1000 times

[goeslikestink]

IMO, shame on people that bring 24 year old horses out of retirement and ask them to work at all.

agrree with that too

[Bogey2]

huh? maybe the horse was only retired because the owner did not ride it...not because it could not be ridden. I have a horse who does well in work and he is coming 24. He is ridden lightly 5 times a week and even showed 3rd level last summer....got his ridee her Bronze medal! He has never had hock injections, just good shoeing, good footing and the occasional Legend shot and bute.

BTW, I totally agree with the no gadget thing...especially on a 24 year-old.

[Vesper Sparrow]

huh? maybe the horse was only retired because the owner did not ride it...not because it could not be ridden.

I think the age thing depends on the horse, as it does in people. In my horse's case, she was taken out of work not because she couldn't be ridden, but for broodmare duty. Before she was bred, her inspection noted that she seemed much younger than her actual age. She was happy to be put back into work at age 22, has regained weight and muscle and looks better than she has looked in years, according to people who have known her. But it did take a good deal of time.

[mbm]

I am not sure if that is even the correct spelling. My trainer rode the horse I am riding last night and said she is going to put her in a go and let her play tug of war by herself. I know it is something that goes over the poll but I really don't know what it is and what it is going to accomplish. Anyone know?

Dawn


i honestly believe that for the majority of us - resorting to gadgets is basically saying loud and clear" i dont have a good enough education to be able to work this horse thru this" or maybe it is " i dont have the ability to work the horse thru this" or maybe it is " i dont want to waste my time working the horse thru this - so i will put it in a gogue and let it fight itself. "

please tell me - what exactly will the horse learn? and is that what we want it to learn?

[ESG]

huh? maybe the horse was only retired because the owner did not ride it...not because it could not be ridden. I have a horse who does well in work and he is coming 24. He is ridden lightly 5 times a week and even showed 3rd level last summer....got his ridee her Bronze medal! He has never had hock injections, just good shoeing, good footing and the occasional Legend shot and bute.

Bogeym this is a 24 year old mare who's not been in steady work for five years, according to the OP. Whatever the reason for her semi-retirement, the very fact that she has been semi-retired for that long, precludes her having the strength and muscle development to even attempt collection, much less be forced into a frame by an idiot "trainer" using a bullshit gadget. Shame on both of them, again, I say. :mad:

BTW, I totally agree with the no gadget thing...especially on a 24 year-old.

Atta girl. :yes:

[1faith]

slc2

I am sure the SRS would have no problem training with out the use of draw reins etc... My point is 99 % of riders / trainers have absolutely no business using such equipment , have no understanding of equine bio mechanics cause and effect and just abuse the horse into a frame.
In the perfect world only the truly skilled and true horseman would use these devices and THEY know how but this is not the case and the # of ruined or hurt horses out there is unbelievable due to ignorance.

[Bogey2]

ESG, I was responding to the thought that a 24 year-old should not be taken out of retirement. I agree about the need to slowly get the horse back in shape.

[SillyMe]

Poor horse! Not that a senior citizen can't have an active life, but come on! Hey Grandpa, wanna go do dressage?????

[slc2]

1faith, RFC, I did not even suggest the SRS was misusing draw reins. In fact, I suggested the opposite, that they rarely used them, and that they knew when to and when to not.