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View Full Version : What do YOU say to people when they tell you horseback riding isn't a sport?



HaffieBud
Jan. 15, 2009, 12:58 PM
It always annoys me when non horse people ask if I play any sports and when I say that I ride and they come back with "oh, well horseback riding isn't really a sport" What does everyone else say in this situation? I usually say, "ok well why don't you go tack up my 17 hand gelding, use the d ring snaffle, bump pad under the saddle, go jump a course, make sure he get his changes, don't catch him in the mouth, leg towards the oxer and don't get bucked off if you land hard on his back" That usually leaves them with a puzzled look on their face :)
Then the response that follows is usually "whats an oxer?" :)

theoldgreymare
Jan. 15, 2009, 01:06 PM
My kids are homeschooled and the "school" they used to go to insisted that riding did not fulfill the gym requirement as it was not a sport. By whose definition? I also love the people who say it's not a sport because "the horse does all the work". Oh really?

greysandbays
Jan. 15, 2009, 01:25 PM
Well, in the common vernacular, horseback riding isn't "really a sport", at least in the USA.

Perhaps some equestrian disciplines waver just over the "sport/not sport" line, but most fit in better with the "not a sport" category.

How a culture comes to define "sport" seems to be some weird, arbitrary formula mixing competition, physical activity, spectator fan following -- and public awareness among those who do are not "fans".

It is the public awareness department that drops the USA out of the "horse stuff is sports" inclusion. How many non-horse people can name even ONE famous horse from history, ONE famous horse of the present, ONE famous competition, ONE famous traditional competition venue, and ONE famous rider? The average joe/jane can do that for at least a few of the activities-we-call-"sports", even if they are not a participant or a fan. For myself, I'm appalled at how many of those items I can name for sports I have no interest whatsoever.

ETA: We don't do so good in the "spectator fan following" department either.

Trakehner
Jan. 15, 2009, 01:28 PM
Why argue? "Throw not your pearls to swine for they shall trample them asunder" Matthew 7:6

You won't convince them, you can't argue with ignorance.

pintopiaffe
Jan. 15, 2009, 01:33 PM
a) It is (or was) in the Olympics

b) it is third only to swimming and xc skiing as far as whole body use of muscles, but adduction and abduction

pAin't_Misbehavin'
Jan. 15, 2009, 01:35 PM
I never volunteer information about my horse life to people. The only way I'll admit to having a horse life is if someone flat out asks "Do you ride?" or "Do you have horses?" and then I say "Yes" and politely change the subject as soon as possible.

That way, I avoid aggravating conversations like the OP had. TOGM, I can see why you'd bring it up to the powers that be over homeschooling, so your kids could get gym credit. But unless I have a good reason to discuss horses with "lay" people, I don't.

ETA: But to answer the question in the OP, I think the best response is to point out that since the person doesn't ride, they don't really have the faintest idea what they're talking about. Be sure to smile sweetly and use the phrase "well, bless your heart.":)

kellyb
Jan. 15, 2009, 01:38 PM
I don't say anything, I don't really care if they don't think it is a sport. :)

Rienzi
Jan. 15, 2009, 01:42 PM
Laugh, slap your thigh, and say, "Oh, that's a good one." Then go on to something else.

MunchkinsMom
Jan. 15, 2009, 01:45 PM
I've only had one person say this to me. He was a co-worker, into working out at the gym and cycling, and we were at happy hour when he said it.

So, I swiveled my bar stool around, and told him to put his leg out bent at the knee (while he was sitting). Then I squeezed his leg with both of my legs. The look on his face was priceless! He never again said that you would not get a good workout from riding.

scotchie
Jan. 15, 2009, 01:55 PM
Hard case to argue unless you want to invite them out to take a spin on your horse :lol: I agree, though- it's frustrating. And it's usually from people who have no problem considering NASCAR, golfing or skeet/trap shooting and bowling sports. Which they are, but so is riding. :D

tkhawk
Jan. 15, 2009, 01:55 PM
I know-a lot of people in my work seem to think horseback riding is exercise only for the horse!

Dispatcher
Jan. 15, 2009, 01:56 PM
A while ago, someone on this board had a great response to "the horse does all the work". She said "yeah, it's just like skiing--the mountain does all the work"

Fabulous line!

Pat
Jan. 15, 2009, 02:01 PM
Most of the time when people say that they are trying to get a rise out of you. Why let them take you down that path?

If they persist, offer to put them on a horse. If they have the balls to actually try, they will figure it out the first time you get the horse to shuffle off in a jog, with them clinging to the pommel like a lemur.

If they don't try, it's because they are weenies who don't want to be proven wrong, and you won't be able to convince them otherwise no matter what.

fordtraktor
Jan. 15, 2009, 02:02 PM
I usually tell them that you burn as many calories riding as jogging, and point out that when you are jogging, you are only using muscles half the time, because the other half your leg is in the air. When you ride a horse, you are using your muscles all the time -- there is no break.

Then I ask if they have ever been on a horse for a significant period of time. If so, you can point out that you are sure they hobbled around for three days afterwards -- and they inevitably did. Horses use muscles that no other sports use, so even the fittest newbie will suffer after a couple hours in the saddle.

I am always happy to talk to people about riding. Most people are moderately interested and think I'm a total badass after my husband makes me tell a few war stories involving near-death experiences. :lol:

Dressage Art
Jan. 15, 2009, 02:02 PM
it is an Olympic sport actually.

Giddy-up
Jan. 15, 2009, 02:08 PM
I generally don't discuss my riding or horse involvement to people I don't know so therefore I don't have to deal with their ignorance. My friends that do know I ride realize the time & effort I put into it and wouldn't be so rude to me.

SoCalChick
Jan. 15, 2009, 02:27 PM
I don't think people are being rude when they say that horseback riding isn't a sport...they are just clueless. All they see is the horse doing all the work, and if you're not into riding, I don't blame them for seeing just that. They don't realize the amount of work we have to do to get the horse to move in a certain way, etc.

I run and cycle in addition to riding horse, and so far, I haven't had any of my fellow running/cycling buddies tell me that riding isn't a sport. They usually just say: Cool, I wish I could ride!

Holly Jeanne
Jan. 15, 2009, 02:28 PM
My 9 yo niece was down at Christmas. She does gymnatics and is on two competitive cheerleading squads. She wanted to ride so I decided she would REALLY ride. With her mom leading, I taught her about two point and worked on her leg and hand position. She had to turn, stop, and start the horse or it wouldn't get done and do several second of two point at a time. After a few seconds of two point, she was moaning. I asked her if she would ever make the comment that the horse did all the work. She was adamant that she would not. :lol:

CatOnLap
Jan. 15, 2009, 02:36 PM
I would invite them to ride my horse on the longe for half an hour. Or maybe just shoot them :D

although this is also a good response:

"the horse does all the work". She said "yeah, it's just like skiing--the mountain does all the work"

greysandbays
Jan. 15, 2009, 02:51 PM
How hard you "work" at an activity is has no corrolation to it's "sport" status. There's tons of things that are harder work than riding that aren't considered "sports". And there's lots of things that are less work than riding that are considered "sports".

How "dangerous" an activity has the potential to be has no corrolation with it's "sport" status. There's tons of things that are more likely to get you killed than riding that aren't considered "sports". And there's lots of things considered "sports" that you couldn't get killed doing even if you wanted to.

msrobin
Jan. 15, 2009, 02:57 PM
I usually tell them to take their happy a$$ out for a weeks worth of riding lessons with a good trainer then tell me how they feel.
It is a sport, just because you are riding an animal doesn't change anything. Nascar drivers drive cars, tennis players a racket,skiers have to have skis, .... just about all of them have to use something to do what they do. I honestly feel that because horses are live creatures that it makes it all that much more difficult and that much more dangerous. For anyone to say it isn't a sport doesn't know the first thing about riding competitively.
You know when I do surveys a lot of them will ask if you participate in sports then it will ask for you to choose the ones you do participate in and equestrian is always on the list.
Because it is a sport.

kateh
Jan. 15, 2009, 06:47 PM
If the horse does all the work, then why am I sore after a lesson? If it's not a competitive sport, then why do I have all these ribbons? Wait, why am I spending all this money on "horse shows"?? Oh my god they lied to me, it's just a sham! :rolleyes:

fordtraktor
Jan. 15, 2009, 07:05 PM
How hard you "work" at an activity is has no corrolation to it's "sport" status. There's tons of things that are harder work than riding that aren't considered "sports". And there's lots of things that are less work than riding that are considered "sports".

How "dangerous" an activity has the potential to be has no corrolation with it's "sport" status. There's tons of things that are more likely to get you killed than riding that aren't considered "sports". And there's lots of things considered "sports" that you couldn't get killed doing even if you wanted to.

I assume this is responding to me since I'm the only one that made these points.

OP asked how I respond, and I told her. Didn't say they were arguments that would stand up in court, but half the battle of a question with no good answer is deflecting the line of questioning to a new, more fruitful one.

Of course you are right that plenty of non-sports take effort, but most people think it is not a sport because "you just sit there" etc. Pointing out that "just sitting there" is an athletic endeavor is an appropriate rejoinder.

As for the danger level, you are right that has no impact on the "sportiness" but non-horse people generally think it is at least interesting.

Lots of people on this thread sound as if they would approach such a question very defensively, and that would probably come off as rude. I don't see the need for that -- hey, I'd tell a few good stories about horses and then ask them about whatever they do. It's just conversation, people. Lighten up, these people just don't know any better!

Invite
Jan. 15, 2009, 07:07 PM
My dad, a former college football player who was most likely going to go pro until he broke his back, never saw riding as a sport. Since I have been sick, on weekends, my father has been helping me at the barn with chores and handling the horses. When he led my 17.2 hand young warmblood in, he got dragged around the barn yard. She headbutted him when he put the halter on and almost knocked him over. This horse behaves like an angel when a horse person is handling her. My father now realizes just how much energy and strength it takes to handle the horses. I asked him if he'd rather take on an angry horse or a 300lb football player. He voted for the football player.

My brother was a college lacrosse player when he made fun of my "so called" sport. I put him on my very kind, well trained horse. My brother stayed on less than 2 minutes. He dug into the horse's sides with his heels and the horse broke into a slow jog. My brother hit the dirt.

My brothers and father now completely respect my sport. They never accept my offers to ride the horses. They actually defend my sport when others make it out to be a hobby rather than a sport :)

Sargentmajor
Jan. 15, 2009, 07:11 PM
I tell them there's a BIG difference between riding a horse and sitting on one while it's moving. :D

AJHorsey
Jan. 15, 2009, 07:19 PM
I just say, "Come ride with me sometime... then let me know if you still think that!"
(Had 2 people take me up on that, and reconsider what they had told me. I'm an endurance rider, but only took them out for a light workout- which consisted of a bit of trotting... he- he! Funny thing- they still come back too! Their favorite workout!)

QM2
Jan. 15, 2009, 07:53 PM
Go pilot my 1200 lb horse over a 4 ft fence and then tell me it's not a sport.

Ya, that's what I thought tough guy.:)

Hazelnut
Jan. 15, 2009, 07:56 PM
Nothing...what-so-ever...it won't change their mind.

undersaddle
Jan. 15, 2009, 08:03 PM
I never volunteer information about my horse life to people. The only way I'll admit to having a horse life is if someone flat out asks "Do you ride?" or "Do you have horses?" and then I say "Yes" and politely change the subject as soon as possible.

My SO would pay you to teach me that trick!:lol:

Actually I have have become much better lately:winkgrin:.

Not to hijack, but has anyone noticed when you get two horse people together (whether or not they know each other,or have anything in common) just sit down, cause it might be awhile.:lol:

BlueBobRadar
Jan. 15, 2009, 08:04 PM
A while ago, someone on this board had a great response to "the horse does all the work". She said "yeah, it's just like skiing--the mountain does all the work"

Fabulous line!
I love this response!

Coreene
Jan. 15, 2009, 08:19 PM
Life is too short to bother explaining.

IsolaBella09
Jan. 15, 2009, 08:21 PM
"Oh, I'm sorry, can you do 60 circles of posting trot without stirrups? No, didn't think so buddy."
or
"It's in the Olympics." I actually had a kid that argued me against this.
"No it's not!"
"You're kidding right?"
"No, there are no horses in the Olympics."
"HA! Stop being ignorant you moron."

:D

Pferd51
Jan. 15, 2009, 08:32 PM
I agree with the people who deflect the comment. There's no point in trying to change someone's mind about something as subjective as this. You can break your back digging holes for fence posts and it's not a sport. Unless perhaps someone makes a competition out of it and then maybe it is. Personally, I don't consider pleasure trail riding a sport, but a horse-related activity that involves a competition I do. But I also don't think that somehow labeling something a sport automatically makes it a better, more worthwhile or challenging way to spend your time than something that I'd call an activity or pasttime.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Jan. 15, 2009, 08:35 PM
One time I went for a spirometry test and the respiratory therapist was telling me that I needed to do more exercise to help my asthma. And I told her that I spent a lot of time at the barn - walking, grooming, sweeping, riding. Apparently, riding a horse is not exercise in her book. She suggested I walk around the buildings during my lunch time instead.

Uh, sure.

Trevelyan96
Jan. 15, 2009, 08:39 PM
I just remind them that riding takes DOUBLE the training of any other sport because you have to train both the horse and the rider.

mango1612
Jan. 15, 2009, 08:43 PM
So I used to get really worked up over it when people said riding wasn't a sport. I don't know if its just me getting older or just realizing that it's not worth arguing to me!

You are aware that your legs are probably capable of crushing a human ribcage and the handstrength thanks to that horse that pulls can send a person crumbling to the ground in tears during a too-strong handshake, why argue? It's like having secret, super-human strength, just wait until they underestimate you....

QM2
Jan. 15, 2009, 09:01 PM
You are aware that your legs are probably capable of crushing a human ribcage .

That is so funny. I can't tell you how many past boyfriends who have given me piggyback rides and have said something to make me mad have ended up on their knees with bruised sides.

ddashaq
Jan. 15, 2009, 11:04 PM
Life is too short to bother explaining.

Yep, I just laugh and change the subject. I don't really care what other people think, so it is not worth the effort of explaining.

Dance_To_Oblivion
Jan. 16, 2009, 12:25 AM
This is how my husband has explained it to me. Sports began when warriors were trying to find a way to test their fighting prowess without actually killing each other. The Olympics evolved from this. Therefore unless your "sport" has a direct correlation to training for war you are playing a game. So yes riding is a sport :)

HorsRdr477
Jan. 16, 2009, 03:27 AM
I tell them to eff off :D

TikiSoo
Jan. 16, 2009, 09:24 AM
If anyone ever said, "Riding a horse isn't a sport." the first thing I'd say is "How so?"
If they say, "You're just sitting there" I'd mention race car drivers "just sit there" too and that's considered a sport. I'd then point out it's an Olympic sport too.

I especially love it when a gym goer tells me riding isn't a workout. I answer, "It makes a helluva lot more sense than lifting weights in a smelly room." And with better results, I might add. I once went hiking with (a friend) Miss NYS bodybuilder...she was huffing and puffing the whole way!

I like the skiing analogy that the hill does all the work! :lol:

mab1228
Jan. 16, 2009, 09:31 AM
I would invite them to just "walk" around on a horse for 30 minutes and when they get off they me how their thighs feel??

Jen848
Jan. 16, 2009, 10:48 AM
I laugh...then flex the biceps, have them squeeze the calves and quads...and then show the scars, haha!

StockyCrosses
Jan. 16, 2009, 11:11 AM
I would say:

Here's my horse, here's the tack. You need to catch, groom, saddle and mount. Then I want you to start at a posting trot, no stirrups for 5 rounds. Then sitting trot no stirrups, then two point for 3 rounds with stirrups. After that, go thru this gymnastic. Use your thighs and follow the horse. Then dismount, walk the horse out, untack, bathe, groom, and do night chores. Tell me how you feel tomorrow.

pAin't_Misbehavin'
Jan. 16, 2009, 02:39 PM
My SO would pay you to teach me that trick!:lol:

Actually I have have become much better lately:winkgrin:.

Not to hijack, but has anyone noticed when you get two horse people together (whether or not they know each other,or have anything in common) just sit down, cause it might be awhile.:lol:

Oh, I'll talk away about horses to other horse people. And of course I have y'all.:)

Try not talking to your SO about horses for awhile. Even if he asks, "How was your ride?" you just smile mysteriously and say "Oh, fine. How was your day, dear?" I bet you a beer he'll be begging you for information before the end of six weeks.:yes:

Sansena
Jan. 16, 2009, 03:01 PM
I reply with a sinister cackle & grin: "HA! You wanna come ride MY horse?!"

They usually don't know how to take it, so it shuts 'em up.

greysandbays
Jan. 16, 2009, 03:28 PM
To everybody who thinks riding horses is a "sport" because it takes so much strength and skill, please iterate exactly how ballet dancing fits into the "sport" spectrum.

You folks are spouting "of course it's a sport because you (the nincompoop that thinks it isn't a sport) would hurt afterwards if you tried it". That's balony. You've got to come up with better reasons that than unless you are just looking for ways to look down your nose at people.

That it's a physical activity and there are competitions for it is a tick in the "sport" column. So is being in the Olympics (but then so is curling and what the hell kind of "sport" is THAT?!?!?!). And I'm sure there might be others as well. However, "ohhhhh, YOU couldn't do it, neener neener" is not.

There are many It's A Sport criteria that it fails to meet -- 1) That the prowness of the participant is the only (or at least the major) factor in the outcome (winning or losing). 2) That participating requires playing both offense and defense. And I'm sure there are more that don't come to mind.

A person is not inherently wrong if they don't consider riding a "sport". Myself, I'd rather consider it an art. Sport implies, to me anyway, that the outcome is more important than the means. That it's better to have an ugly win than a graceful loss.

horsecrazy
Jan. 16, 2009, 03:36 PM
Not sure if anyone said this already, but my canned response when someone says horseback riding isn't a sport:


Okay, come riding with me sometime, and we'll see if you can walk the next day :)

S1969
Jan. 16, 2009, 03:40 PM
I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone say that riding *isn't* a sport (other than my dh, who only says it to annoy me). I have had people question whether it's *hard* because "you're just sitting there, right?" (again, however, mostly my own dh).

It's not a team sport, in the classic sense, of course. Not like football or soccer, but more like track & field, cycling, or skiing.

I guess I'm confused as to why anyone would say it's not a sport. What *do* they think it is? An art form, as suggested above? I don't think that's quite right, although certainly all riders have their own "style"....much like skiiers might. Greys&Bays, are you saying there is a definition of sport somewhere....maybe I misunderstood your post?

I think I'm too old for this question; is this a typical question asked of high school or college students? ("So, do you play any sports?") I guess when you're 40 people stop asking. :lol:

Lieslot
Jan. 16, 2009, 03:47 PM
Whether people consider it a sport or not, doesn't bother me that much. As "sport" doesn't necessarily mean physical agility nor stamina nor strength.
One could ask is 'darting' a sport yes or no. Most darters will say yes, non-darters will say no...

What bothers me more is the fact that non-horsey people automatically assume the horse does all the work, especially when you do dressage, they really think you just sit there looking pretty, and for sure if you are stuck in the lower levels, coz there it really is the horse working for you :sadsmile:.
People have no clue that the horse will not move like that just out of him/herself.

I once got engaged in a suchlike conversation and was loosing the battle as everyone just thought all you do is sit still, tall & done... Luckily enough some other person joined in the conversation who in the past had taken some jumping lesson and corrected them all when he said : "Ever tried to move 1200lbs with just your legs as the mouth is sacred and remember it's not a wooden horse, it's a creature with a mind of its own and a set of muscles that matches the power of a german tank. Just go & try position 1200lbs with just your 150lbs of bodyweight, good luck!"

Needless to say, everyone shut up! :lol:

greysandbays
Jan. 16, 2009, 03:54 PM
I guess I'm confused as to why anyone would say it's not a sport. What *do* they think it is? An art form, as suggested above? I don't think that's quite right, although certainly all riders have their own "style"....much like skiiers might. Greys&Bays, are you saying there is a definition of sport somewhere....maybe I misunderstood your post?


Wikipedia has an entry that attempts to define "sport" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport

It does show how nebulous the definition can be. You read a couple of sentences and think, "Yeah, by that critria, horseback riding would be condsidered a sport" -- then a few sentences further down, you start thinking, "Well, maybe it's not really a sport by that definition". And back and forth several times...

What I'm trying to say is that if people have valid, logical reasons for thinking horseback riding is a sport, I wouldn't argue with that. By the same token, if they have valid, logical reasons for thinking horseback riding is not a sport, I wouldn't argue with that either.

But this "Ohhhhh, YOU can't do it, neener neener neener, so OBVIOUSLY it's a sport" business is a bunch of crap. Just as stupid and small-minded as people thinking it's not a sport because "the horse does all the work", really.

S1969
Jan. 16, 2009, 04:44 PM
Wikipedia has an entry that attempts to define "sport" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport

It does show how nebulous the definition can be. You read a couple of sentences and think, "Yeah, by that critria, horseback riding would be condsidered a sport" -- then a few sentences further down, you start thinking, "Well, maybe it's not really a sport by that definition". And back and forth several times...

What I'm trying to say is that if people have valid, logical reasons for thinking horseback riding is a sport, I wouldn't argue with that. By the same token, if they have valid, logical reasons for thinking horseback riding is not a sport, I wouldn't argue with that either.

But this "Ohhhhh, YOU can't do it, neener neener neener, so OBVIOUSLY it's a sport" business is a bunch of crap. Just as stupid and small-minded as people thinking it's not a sport because "the horse does all the work", really.

Got it. And I agree with you. I'm a terrible chess player, so someone telling me it's a sport simply because I can't do it isn't a very good argument. I guess the best response to someone saying "horseback riding isn't a sport" would be either a) "Really? What do you consider it to be?"; b) "Well, I consider it a sport because.....XYZ"; or c) "Who cares what you think, anyway?" :)

linquest
Jan. 16, 2009, 05:20 PM
This is what I would say:

Answer: Is bike riding/racing a sport? Don't you just "sit there"?

Response: Yes...but the bike can’t move on it’s own. You need to expend physical energy to make it work.

Answer: OK, but in that case, all you're dealing with is a small metal frame with two wheels. However, a horse has four legs, a mind of its own, and about a thousand pounds more muscle than most people, not to mention a natural instinct to fear people as predators. Do you think you could get a horse to do what you want it do, when you wanted it, if it didn’t take a lot of physical effort and training?

Empressive Award
Jan. 16, 2009, 05:40 PM
My SO and I used to have this arguement all the time!

His passion: Cars...
My Passion: horses...

He used to say that riding horses isnt a sport, let alone a work out...:eek:

So response A is "neither is drag racing your car or mudbogging with your truck..."

And response B is come riding with me... for which he gets fair warning and blows off. Well after an hour of arena riding and trail riding guess who's huffing and puffing and whining about how his butt, legs, and *cough cough* hurts because it took so much effort to stay on and in position. (I am proud he tried though!)

....and now I dont get the look when I turn down the gym for a riding lesson because he learned HIS lesson. I still go to the gym to work on things that I dont get from riding though...not much:)

tikidoc
Jan. 16, 2009, 06:38 PM
I agree with those who have stated that it depends upon how you define sport. For that reason, when someone says riding is not a sport, I ask them what their definition of "a sport" is. I don't get terribly worked up about it. If their answer includes something like "need an offense and defense" or something else that does not apply to riding, I would just respond "OK, using that definition, it isn't".

When I do get a little annoyed and when I tend to go into "neener neener" mode is with the ignorant folks who say that riding is not exercise or not physically challenging.

rabicon
Jan. 16, 2009, 08:02 PM
I usually say, okay well I have the perfect horse for you to ride on the trail (Even though I have a show horse and he jumps this horse would be much funnier to see them on :lol:) Just don't touch him with your leg ;) Also I'll say how do you think I stay in shape???? Its not from sitting on the couch all day ;)

Whisper
Jan. 16, 2009, 08:21 PM
My ex-boyfriend thinks that horse show events that are purely objective (ie. barrel racing, showjumping) are sports, but that subjective ones like dressage and Western Pleasure aren't. I thought it was a fairly reasonable perspective.

Anyway, if people claim that riding isn't *EXERCISE*, I tell them that I used to be on the track team, and do yoga, dancing, and martial arts, and that riding can sometimes be more challenging to do correctly than any of the others. In general, I don't find horseback riding to be an aerobic sport - it is more like yoga in that it works core, balance, coordination, flexibility, and body awareness, rather than getting my heart rate/breathing very high (unless the horse does something naughty, or I'm on XC, but that's due to the adreneline, not the exertion). :lol: Vaulting (gymnastics on horseback) on the other hand, is very high intensity and aerobic usually, depending on the specific things I am working on.