The difference between "I can't" and "I won't"

[eponacelt]

So I was reading dressagediosa's blog this morning and she mentioned that her work with Scott Hassler this week concentrated on determining the difference between "I can't" and "I won't" in her horses. It got me to thinking because this is something I'm struggling with on my 4 year old. He's a good guy, and we spent a lot of time over the past year figuring out how much of our issues were due to general four-year-old-testing-the-limits stuff and how much was either pain or that we were just asking him to do something hard.

I think we're starting to get it, but I also have days where I know I'm too insistent or demanding and end up with an "I can't" from him. And there are still a few days where we deal with a few minutes of "I won't", although thankfully, that is getting to be less and less.

Anyway, how do YOU tell the difference between the two in your riding?

[slc2]

By conditioning the horse and making things happen in steps, one can get very little 'I won't'. If the training is right the horse 'already knows it' and is physically and mentally prepared. Instead of 'I won't' or 'I can't' it's more like 'I know this stuff' and the biggest problem is anticipation, LOL. Having an instructor there from time to time helps. I think if the horse is having problems of either type it is more likely a step in the training was not confirmed or was skipped.

If that's taken care of all that's left is they just get distracted here and there, aren't quite warmed up yet, or are just having a bad hair day, or are just feeling a little naughty.

[merrygoround]

Usually I ask for new things at the walk, and accept a small reaction. Then I build progressively. Somedays if things get difficult, I'll back off. Otherdays, I wait, do something else and then repeat the question.

Hpwever, there are still those games that youngsters play, and I guess from experience you learn to tell "can't from "won't".

[lpcutter]

I believe that a horse's behavior (healthy horse,not in pain) is motivated by one of 3 things; fear::eek:, confusion:confused: or stubborness:no:. It is the rider/handler's job to figure out which it is and respond accordingly. A fearful horse tends to over react and must be handled calmly and with reassurance. A confused horse may try many different "answers" (behaviors) to the "question" (rider's aids) as they try to figure the correct response. This may be what you are experiencing as "can't" in your horse. To remedy this situation take the horse back to a task that they are familiar with. Example: the horse knows how to flex to the right at a walk but can't seem to do this at a trot, go back to the walk and work flexing and when he is relaxed and confident go back to the trot work. The horse that says I "won't" is showing stubborness and needs to be corrected firmly. Using previous example, say he won't flex to the right at a walk and he knows how, you would correct him with your right heel on his ribs and steady contact on the right rein until he flexes. I know this is lengthy but I hope it helps.

[horsepix76]

How lucky for you to get to work with Scott Hassler!

To be honest, I don't think I've ever found "I won't" with my horse. She does throw little temper tantrums every once in a while as she is asked to do more work, but as she realizes she can do whatever is being asked of her, she happily goes about it. In fact, she almost gets this attitude like "Oh THAT's what you wanted me to do. No problem. I can do that." Her temper tantrums are limited to furiously swishing her tail and flipping her tongue over the bit. However, once she realizes that those antics aren't going to get her out of work, she stops doing them and quietly goes about the required tasks.

I think I've never been to the land of "I won't" with her because I've never overfaced her. As a result, she pretty much trusts me to do all sorts of things outside of the dressage ring (including cowboy mounted shooting, parades, horse fair demonstrations, flag carrying, etc.). She might approach it cautiously at first, but she absolutely trusts me that whatever I'm asking her to do is not going to hurt her. Oh yeah...and this is an OTTB I'm talking about. :)

[egontoast]

'I can't' and 'I won't' may both indicate a hole in training, unless there is something like an injury or health problem.

"I'll try" is the right answer. :)

[horsepix76]

'I can't' and 'I won't' may both indicate a hole in training, unless there is something like an injury or health problem.

"I'll try" is the right answer. :)

Very well said. :)

[rileyt]

I don't think its uncommon with very young horses for them to test the boundaries at some point, and give you an "I won't". As long as you correct it quickly and correctly (and nip it in the bud), a "schooled" horse with a reasonably good attitude should have very few of these moments.

Having said that, if your well schooled/cooperative horse starts saying "I won't" -- you need to look at your training, because that is 99.9% of the time due to pain/fear/discomfort. It can be a physical issue like a back problem, or simply a mental fatigue/exhaustion. For example, when your horse is learning half-passes... if you drill him into the ground, you will make him sore and sour, such that on day 7 of your continuous half-pass drilling - your horse may say "I won't" - because he is convinced that once he starts half-passing, he'll be half-passing for the next 30 minutes and that will hurt.

I have been blessed to work with horses that have wonderful attitudes. (Mostly TBs, whom I love). I have worked with very few horses in my life who had "bad attitudes" (mostly due to some idiot previous owner who beat them up and soured them on life). Sometimes they can be salvaged, but sadly many aren't worth the time and effort.

What I have learned, over many years with many different horses... is that almost all resistance has its roots in pain or fear. Sometimes it takes a very skilled and empathetic rider to help a horse progress beyond those points. There is always some pain (in the form of sore muscles) when you are training an athlete. The important thing is not to overdo it, and on the rare occasions when you DO overdo it (as I think we all do from time to time), to RECOGNIZE that you've overdone it, and back off. Always keep in mind, that the rider's timetable is meaningless. You may want to be at 2nd level in 3 years, but you may be working with a horse who (due to his mental and physical limitations) may only get there in 6 years, or may not get there at all. Working with a lot of TBs, I frequently deal with horses who have "less than perfect" bodies for dressage. My favorite guy right now is WONDERFUL, but the longest/gangliest thing you've ever seen. When he holds it all together, he is a beautiful mover, but developing the back strength that is necessary for him to hold his hind end under him is a challenge (and always will be). He will spend much longer than some just doing correct and through Training Level and First level work. Putting him on the same time frame as the Trak/X I ride (with back strength to spare) would be silly and counterproductive.

[SisterToSoreFoot]

These are all really good responses. There is some overlap between the "can'ts" and 'won'ts" that muddy things up for riders, however. For intance, say you're trying to ask a horse to do a flying change. He cross-fires. Again and Again. So, what's he saying here? I can't do a flying change at all or I can't do a flying change when your twisted up there like a pill bug, holding the reins like a mantis? Neither of these is a "won't"--the second horse probably literally cannot organize himself for the movement because of his rider's issues. So some "can'ts" are really truly physical limitations, but many, many, are more along the lines of "I can't do that movement unless you move your body like this." Big--but oftentimes hard to disern--difference.

[Perfect Pony]

Now that my mare is 6 years old (going to be 7 in June!) I am finding that almost all my problems stemmed from her not being physically ready. I backed off a lot with her as a 5 year old and worked on fitness and forward, and am now reaping the benefits with her as a 6 year old! :)

As an aside, those horses in the barn her age that were pushed as 4 and 5 year olds into 1st-2nd level frames and movements are all now in rehab for injuries and/or ulcers, while I am still enjoying my happy, healthy horse.

[buck22]

this is a really good topic to discuss, I love reading all the input!

I had an epiphany in the last year, and so now I assume "I can't" 100% of the time.

It is my personal belief that if a horse does not comply its because either its in pain, confused, lacking confidence/respect, unhappy/ill, lacking focus or bored, physically unable to fulfill the request at the moment, suffering from rider/handler error, or it plain just isn't trained well enough/thoroughly. By that rationale, 99.9% of the time the *problem* is essentially a man-made one, so I can hardly blame the horse for something thats ultimately my fault.

Shifting the *blame* to myself 100% of the time is actually quite refreshing, and has made life vastly simpler too :cool: when I encounter a problem, I just have to figure out how where *I* went wrong and usually the solution is to present things in a clearer way :winkgrin:

I never have to worry whether I should be punishing or not... I just assume blame 100% of the time, and do my best not to loose my temper or hit or punish any longer. Grey hair development has slowed noticeably too.:lol:

[cyndi]

snip..

I never have to worry whether I should be punishing or not... I just assume blame 100% of the time, and do my best not to loose my temper or hit or punish any longer. Grey hair development has slowed noticeably too.:lol:

This is exactly my philosphy, too! Especially when training my horse to do flying changes - when I'd never even ridden one flying change on a trained horse beforehand. :D BTW, the HORSE learned them faster than I did. :)

[pintopiaffe]

Interesting responses.

My current training horse is impeccably honest in all things. He has a very strict sense of justice (if you reprimand him for something a) you let him do or b) you reprimand 'unfairly' for the crime--he won't speak to you for a while. How long depends on just how badly he was affronted :lol: )

But I've always said he has NEVER said "No." He's said "I can't," "I don't know how," and "ouch." But never NO. He does have an amazing, truly amazing work ethic.

But reading--especially buck's reply--the replies here, is he truly that much more honest? Or have I just (finally, 30 years later) gotten to the stage of recognizing it...

OTOH, he has come (and will continue on) farther than any other horse I've started from scratch. There is no doubt the last couple of years have been light on riding but long on LEARNING for me. Still, I've always felt this about him, ever since he first arrived at five and unbacked. And since him, I've truly only seen two horses that I believe are saying NO. And even then--I think the NO is human-created at some point... and they just figured out they *could* say no.

<shrugs... just rambling with frozen brain cells... ;) >

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

And of course, this is assuming you are working with a horse that does not come with past issues and baggage. Sometimes they truly believe they can't, and you have to gently set them up for success and show them that yes, they can, and what is difficult today will become easier tomorrow.

And - not saying this is true in the OP's case - sometimes you ask, but your position makes it impossible for them to do so, in which case, "They can't."

[pintopiaffe]

Sometimes they truly believe they can't, and you have to gently set them up for success and show them that yes, they can, and what is difficult today will become easier tomorrow.To me, this is Walter Zettl's teaching gift. Nothing was ever entirely 'new' and everything was set up so gently that you could both (rider and horse) be 'surprized' into the next movement with very little effort...

I'm sure there are other teachers with that skill, but with Walter, you'd watch someone's lesson, and see a really nicely executed movement, with no fuss or worry, and they would come out of the ring exclaiming (beaming) "we've never DONE that before!"

[eponacelt]

And - not saying this is true in the OP's case - sometimes you ask, but your position makes it impossible for them to do so, in which case, "They can't."

Actually, I KNOW this is an issue for me and one I and diligently trying to overcome. As they say, the first step is admitting you have a problem...and at least I can recognize now when his "I can't" is really a "I'd do it if you'd just get out of my way!":lol:

Now if I could just permanently fix myself...

[enjoytheride]

With the horse I'm riding now it is mostly I WONT AND YOU CANT MAKE ME regarding giving to the bridle. She is a dominant and hot horse and dropping her nose is a submissive gesture that doesn't let her stay on alert. I think it is mostly due to stubborness and a history of bad riders and abusive riders and learning to panic under saddle and bolt to get away from the work. So giving to her I think is a battle in her mind so we spend lots of time asking and relaxing. When she does submit and give she can do anything on the planet.

Originally her answers to even a simple question like leg yielding was to bolt or run backwards at the slightest use of leg or rein. I ended up thinking differently and teaching sidepass using the arena wall to control the bolting. After some knock down fights I was able to get through the panic and teach her what I was asking and she responded with "I understand and I can" That was a magical ride because she stopped panicing and started listening and trying to understand and ever since then she has retained her knowledge. Now depending on mood her answers to dressage tend to lean from "I don't understand so here is everything I've got and "I think I can read your mind here is what I've got."

Jumping she needs to be less submissive so her answers are "I am smarter then you and I got it the second I looked at it you get the hell out of my way"

[MelantheLLC]

All great posts. For a very specific program to train or re-train the foundation issues--go, stop, turn, yield--using pressure/release, we're (me, my horse and my trainer) having wonderful success with Andrew McLean's (http://www.aebc.com.au/home) Academic Horse Training program.

He makes the point that virtually all cases of "misbehavior" are actually conflict behavior caused by--as many in this thread have said--confusion, fear and a lack of understanding the basic cues. He makes the point that pressure (leg, whip etc) creates motivation, but training occurs on release of pressure. Timing of release of pressure and shaping for the lightest possible cue, going right back to stop and go on the ground.

I think you can figure out very quickly the difference between "I can't" and "I won't" using a system like this and going back to the basic work on the ground. You can break down the problem behavior and SEE what the horse is doing and whether it actually understands and responds confidently to your cues.

[dressagediosa]

How fun! Glad my silly blog has sparked some great discussion.

There are so many different ways our horses try and communicate with us; it's hard to always be able to read them! Is it "I can't because I'm not ready, but keep showing me the way and I'll eventually get strong enough to go there," or "I can't because I don't understand," or "I can't because I'm not ready in this precise moment, but ask again in a minute and I will be?" Is it "I won't because I'm a jerk," or "I won't because it hurts," or "I won't because it scares me and I need your help?" Or, or, or.

At the end of the day, it always comes back to the basics, one way or the other. What a great discussion! Keep it coming!

[sid]

I haven't read all the posts but the last few. But I hope I can add something here as food for thought.

Those of us that have bred, delivered and raised young horses learn almost from the getgo (usually within about 3 weeks of birth) about the the difference between "I can't" and "I won't" in a horses' mind --or as someone wisely posted, "I'm trying". Horses are what they are.

Everything we do when asking a horse to do something with which it is unaccustomed (from birth to old age) -- and does not respond the way we want it to -- begs us to reconsider the way we are asking and adjust accordingly to that individual with patience and a "plan" (and of course eliminate a physical reason for the reluctance to do so, first and foremost.)

This is SO important in training foals, who are nothing more than a bundle of flight response, to accept new things that are being asked of it (the first shots, the first time a foot is being taken out from under them for a trim, the first time on the lunge, under saddle...anything.) Their first physical response is "no". We have to judiciously and fairly teach them to say "yes". As horses mature, they're stronger so their "no" can be more intimidating. So some get on their backs, take out the whips and the spurs, and force it to accept. If people tag teamed a baby and force it to accept without relaxation the problem can live on in adult years. What they're instinct is saying about something new or something they don't understand is no different whether they weigh 150 lbs. or 1,500 lbs.

Some horses (whether they were "muscled" or not as youngins and not allowed to learn in a relaxed fashion ..or later as adults) are typically harder and say "I won't". Not their fault they're that way. They're just reacting accordingly by someone skipping the important part of training...applying the aids fairly and waiting for acceptance, then relaxaton.

That regardless of the age, they must leave the school/teaching session relaxed in the last thing that was asked of it. The same thing holds true for teaching an adult. If they've not encountered the experience before in their lives, they will instinctively be relucant, unless the handler/trainer is truly gifted in the art of training/riding and understands the difference between "I can't" and "I won't".

That's what you want to get..,"I'm trying". If you don't get that (barring having greater expectations by hurrying a horse along) then you have either a physical problem (I can't) or a behavioral/trust/confidence in people problem (I won't).

Developing a keen eye and instinctive feel for these issues -- and understanding the difference between them -- is what separates the average horseman from the extraordinary horseman, like Scott and others who know the "nature" of horses.

Sorry to run on about this. But understanding this concept is at the core of good training..no matter the age of the horse.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

I really enjoyed this discussion! Thanks for starting it!

[goeslikestink]

'I can't' and 'I won't' may both indicate a hole in training, unless there is something like an injury or health problem.

"I'll try" is the right answer. :)

echo

[ideayoda]

It is the rider's job to set the horse up for success. That means that the rider (ESPECIALLY the young horse rider) must have a great seat, a clear methodology, and properly timed aids. Green on green leads to problematic behaviors. And too many winning jyr get on greenies and presume them to just be baby fei horses, they are not. IF training is methodical in hand, lungeing (ie side reins to caveson, then to bridle), and progressive undersaddle, there will be very fews I cannot, and should never be I wont (because the rider should have asked differently wayyyy before that happens). It is time for the rider to change the way (timing/exercises/equitation/etc) they ask in order to never get to refusals by the horse.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

This is why I enjoy watching my trainer ride, because she knows how to do this so well. I am thrilled that I am now at the point where I can see what she is asking, how she is asking, and how she responds to the horse's response.

Maybe one day I'll be able to do the same thing!!!

[pintopiaffe]

SID--sooooo true. And perhaps why I've learned to recognize more what answer the horse is giving (or tryign to give) to my questions, as I've bred and raised this last batch... I hadn't really thought that changed my pespective so much until I read your post, and now realize I totally know when starting them for u/s work where their limits are, what 'pushes their buttons' etc., from the early 'work' and interaction.

Interesting.

[buck22]

It is the rider's job to set the horse up for success.

That means that the rider....must have a great seat, a clear methodology, and properly timed aids........

IF training is methodical....and progressive.....there will be very fews I cannot, and should never be I wont (because the rider should have asked differently wayyyy before that happens).

It is time for the rider to change the way... they ask in order to never get to refusals by the horse.
if I could find an applause smiley I'd use it here... :D yoda, imho, is absolutely spot on.

[horsepix76]

To me, this is Walter Zettl's teaching gift. Nothing was ever entirely 'new' and everything was set up so gently that you could both (rider and horse) be 'surprized' into the next movement with very little effort...

I'm sure there are other teachers with that skill, but with Walter, you'd watch someone's lesson, and see a really nicely executed movement, with no fuss or worry, and they would come out of the ring exclaiming (beaming) "we've never DONE that before!"

AGREED! I watched WAZ give a lesson to a woman who was trying to make the step up to GP but couldn't get the double and single tempis. WAZ had her break down into steps the horse already knew: canter halt transitions with a change of lead. Once the horse understood what was coming (the change of lead), tempis were a piece of cake. :) It gives me goose bumps just thinking about it. Observing that lesson really inspired me to break down my training methods into baby steps that the horses already understand. Everything is a building block.

[sid]

Yes, Ideayoda said it perfectly -- whether it be for riders, trainers, young horse trainers or baby horse "upbringers". At any age of development these rules apply to develop a willing, confident and relaxed partner. So often it's the youngsters' early experiences that sets the stage for the "attitude" about accepting new concepts later in life.

[JackSprats Mom]

Interesting discussion for sure!

should never be I wont

So I'm curious what you all think of this mornings scenario then. Horse has had 5 weeks off (due to adverse weather etc) and tends to go backwards a step with time off. Brought back into work lightly this week, introducing SI/HI which we were working on before the break (mainly at the walk to just reintroduce stuff to him and keep it simple). Three days ago introduced backing, was only asking for the thought of backing or one step and rewarded for whatever correct attempt he made. He did this yesterday, was great, remained supple throughout the ride. (just to repeat he was only asked for ONE step of back not several). Asked today and he threw a tantrum and appeared to say 'I WON'T' (not I can't as he'd already been doing).

Assumed it was me and there was confusion so went forward and asked again later, same response. Left it and put it down to an off day as he had offered before, figured better to try another day then make too big an issue of it.

So curious as to why he would try the last few days (again rewarded for even little things as he's learning all this) and today wouldn't even try?

This is "I won't" or something else?

(as a side note aside from today and backing he's been coming on in leaps and bounds and I'm VERY happy with him over all hence why I let today be- we all have off days)

[buck22]

imho, and its just my opinion, that there often is a learning curve, or bad before its better when learning. Also, there is always the possibility of rider error, or the possibility of the rider 'expecting' and perhaps putting a bit of pressure on the horse.

but in my limited experience, I've found that a horse can guess the correct answer several times in a row, but that doesn't mean its learned yet, and the rider/handler can often be tricked into thinking the horse has 'got it' when its not quite solid yet.

with backing, practice often on the ground, during general routine handling, etc, find excuses to back the horse... I like to ask them to lighten the shoulders first then back.

I would say your case was a case of "I don't understand this! I'm frustrated!" rather than a blatent "I won't"... but I certainly cannot say this is anything other than a guess on my part.

this is just my 2¢ and I'm always to be taken with a grain of salt :D

ah, editing to add:
just re-read this:

So curious as to why he would try the last few days (again rewarded for even little things as he's learning all this) and today wouldn't even try?
it is often this feeling that - having made this mistake myself repeatedly - that is what I was mentioning earler as being rider error.... it is entirely possible, that since the horse performed willingly before, that on the 3rd go, the rider had a bit more expectation, the horse really wasn't solid, and the rider *missed the try* and was a hair more demanding than the horse could/wanted to handle

not saying thats the case with you, just saying, I fall in that trap m'self daily. :)

[JackSprats Mom]

Good thinking Buck22!

All I can say is this boy has challanged everything I know (in a good way) to make me stop, breathe and rethink how to ask.

I have been in a pissy mood the last two days and so it does not surprise me that I did not put that together and come to that conclusion- thank you.

As always I am trying to learn and further myself and this horse is teaching me more then I ever thought I could learn....but taking me further too.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

Another possibility - is it possible that - for whatever reason - physically what you asked was harder for him today than before?

[JackSprats Mom]

DG- I thought about that as I asked, and the reason I emphasized that I only asked for one step is that I know backing can make horses sore when they first start.

So, I don't think I asked anything more then the last couple of days trot/halt/one step back/trot but I stopped when he resisted giving him the benefit of the doubt and checked him over once his saddle was off and found no soreness.

He may have just peeked at learning and needed a day to devour what he was doing...I may have just messed up...we may have both been having a bad day...no idea.

Hopefully tomorrow will be better :yes:

[MelantheLLC]

He could be sore if he really threw a fit.

But also consider that research into learning has shown that animals learn a lesson the fastest (in actual training time, not calendar time) if it occurs every third day.

If something is new--a behavior expected from a cue--then you are not just training muscles, you are training neurons. You have to give them a chance to rest and consolidate too.

Also make certain you aren't giving conflicting cues--go forward and go back at the same time.

Even when things are going well, take a break after 3 to 5 good (or improving) responses at a new learning task.

[pintopiaffe]

Specifically for JackSprat...

I know that when I went to the 'endurance' model of conditioning, we went from super-slow progress to progress in jumps.

In a nutshell, you NEVER do the same thing 2 days in a row. Dressage school on day 1? then hillwork or hacking or long-slow-distance, or galloping on day 2. Whatever you did on day 2, something ELSE on day three. In *my* model, at least three days (including the day off sometimes) between dressage schools. So it looks like this for us:

Monday: Dressage--suppling... long/low/reaching/forward. Some lateral work but no collection. 35-45 mins.
Tuesday: Hillwork. Walking/trotting/cantering gentle rolling pasture hills 35-45 mins
Wednesday: Long Slow Distance
Thursday: Dressage--more intense--asking for more collection, schooling new things
Friday: either LSD again, a jumping day, (hah! 18-24" tops) or day off
Sat'dy: opposite of Friday
Sunday: either day off or intense hillwork/cardio sets

That's a little broad and a little vague, but a 'general' idea.

We went from sort-of-First Level to working in Third with some 1/4 pirouettes and some piaffe. (and passage--I can't forget, we found out we DO have a passage) in one season being RELIGOUS about this sort of format.

Now, can you do two dressage schools in a row? Of course. But not the SAME. Because *I* am a creature of habit, and *I* get to picking at things like a movement or new skill, I REFUSE to do the same type of riding 2x in a row. Someone more disciplined might do Long/low/straight/fwd day 1, lateral work day two, collected work day 3, day off day 4 etc. Me, I gotta get out of the ring or I'm tempted to take up where I left off yesterday, especially if it was good. And if I do? Ineveitably it's NOT as good.

By being very observant of this, you can build up a ton of strength and muscle, without ever being 'sore' or having resistance due to soreness from schooling.

It's a kind of 'out there' theory. I'm wearing plenty of layers right now, so don't *think* the asbestos is needed... but 'strictly' dressage riders seem to not even know this type of training/conditioning. For ME, and my *Arab* stallion, it's made a huge difference. HUGE. We've gone further in the last 3 years, even with limited riding/training at times, than in the previous five. The only thing I changed was the conditioning program. I actually had fewer lessons at times, but with more improvement between. Because of that, I'm crediting a different model of building strength.

And if the basics are correct, all the rest of it IS, is building strength. Time and sweaty saddlepads. ;)

JME, YMMV...
<okay, looking around for a *little* asbestos*>

[Gucci Cowgirl]

I have ridden, schooled, and trained many different types, levels and ages of horses,from training never-backed youngsters to 3rd and 4th level, taking 2 3rd level horses to PSG/I1, schooling GP, to riding and exercising 4 olympic GP horses, and I have only EVER heard the answer "I won't " about 3 times. funny enough, the bloodlines were all the same on the 3 horses ;)

I can't is usually "I am not strong enough, I am confused, I am scared, or I am blocked somewhere"