Retraining exercises for a horse that is locked into btv frame (curls)

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

Another example of why framing up a horse is bad. So I own a coming 15 year old thoroughbred who I bought last summer. If you take up contact, or when he gets tired (ex. after a downward transition from the canter) he lowers his poll below the wither and goes behind verticle. He maintains contact...he'll go low to keep it, so he isn't truly curling I guess. I think he has years of being taught to do this and I am guessing some draw reins were used in the past as well. He's really smart, overachiever and I think he is trying to do what he thinks is the right thing.

I add leg and he just goes faster. Inside leg, outside rein = poll down. I'll exaggerate my uphill seat, and tilt my pelvis forward and up (not sure how to explain) and he can only hold himself up for a stride before he goes back downhill. We do tons of transitions.

I've tried riding with no contact, just to see what happens (he's a natural hunter) and with no contact the head comes up, but he breaks his topline or locks his neck right behind his jaw. Stiff. Get him to unlock his neck and back down goes the poll. We've got long and low down pat. Stretchy circle isn't a problem...coming back up is.

Any ideas? Other than this issue he's got the first level movements down and is schooling second, but I can't get him out of long and low! As an aside, my instructor would rather see him go behind the verticle than lock his neck.

[merrygoround]

He sounds as though he's dropping onto his forehand rather than BTV. He's lowering his head and bringing his nose in, but not carrying from behind. He is also not answering your halfhalts. Adding leg, if at the same time you are giving a strong half halt, should not have him speeding up.
Rather than tilting your pelvis to lift him during a downward try stretching your body up, opening your chest, and stopping your hips from continueing in canter rythmn. Keep the leg on and ride him into the new trot rythmn. Think of it less as a downward, and more as a change in rythmn.

[Perfect Pony]

My mare tends to get really BTV, it has nothing to do with draw reins or thinking she was doing the right thing, it is because she did not have the strength and knowledge to be properly forward, in front of the leg and engaged. She will still go BTV and go low in the poll if she is not forward and in front of the leg. However we have recently gotten her to the point where she is truly "on the bit" and her "frame" magically fixes itself.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

My mare tends to get really BTV, it has nothing to do with draw reins or thinking she was doing the right thing, it is because she did not have the strength and knowledge to be properly forward, in front of the leg and engaged. She will still go BTV and go low in the poll if she is not forward and in front of the leg. However we have recently gotten her to the point where she is truly "on the bit" and her "frame" magically fixes itself.

You could very well be right. I guess I looked at it the way I did because he "looks" so round (people comment on how round he is or how good his tempo is). But I don't think he is actually correct...

So how did you get her to that point?

I should add that he is a very forward (and sensitive) moving horse. He's not dragging behind. I'm not arguing that he is truly in front of the leg, but I don't want to suggest he is way behind either (although he does tend to get behind the leg at the canter and this is something I've been working alot on).

So exercises?

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

He sounds as though he's dropping onto his forehand rather than BTV. He's lowering his head and bringing his nose in, but not carrying from behind. He is also not answering your halfhalts. Adding leg, if at the same time you are giving a strong half halt, should not have him speeding up.
Rather than tilting your pelvis to lift him during a downward try stretching your body up, opening your chest, and stopping your hips from continueing in canter rythmn. Keep the leg on and ride him into the new trot rythmn. Think of it less as a downward, and more as a change in rythmn.

Right. And it is an all the time thing at the trot too, not just during downwards. I will use half halt or tighten my core to stop him from just running out from the pressure and he goes lower intead of up. I think you are both right in that he lacks the self carriage strength.

[Perfect Pony]

You could very well be right. I guess I looked at it the way I did because he "looks" so round (people comment on how round he is or how good his tempo is). But I don't think he is actually correct...

So how did you get her to that point?

I should add that he is a very forward (and sensitive) moving horse. He's not dragging behind. I'm not arguing that he is truly in front of the leg, but I don't want to suggest he is way behind either (although he does tend to get behind the leg at the canter and this is something I've been working alot on).

So exercises?

Well I come from H/J land, so working on my own seat has helped. Recently, the things that have really worked getting her properly on the bit have been any and every exercise to get her solidly on the outside rein. So

Lots of walking concentrating on inside leg to outside rein and on my upper body and seat position
Turn on the forehand, concentrating on straightness and connecting to the outside rein
Leg yields (same as above, at walk and trot)
Spiraling in and out of the circle at walk and trot
Change of tempo within the trot

[EASY RIDER STABLE]

They're taught that when galloping daily. They're taught to pull and after enuff times most of them find it very easy to curl up and go behind the vertical. I never met an OTTB that ddidnt do it.

[KatherineC]

Your horse needs an "up and out" correction. Bump him off the bit. See the Cathy Morelli website. I have seen some less than kind assessments of her on this website. But she has a great solution for this issue.

[Nibs]

I ride alot of OTTBs and find the three loop serpentines work really well for fixing this. I think that the turn keeps him on the hind end and the straightening puts him into the bit, and the steering keeps him from going into " autopilot" if that makes any sense.

[J-Lu]

Well, if he's coming 15 and has been ridden like this for some time, you're not going to have an easy time correcting this. But if he's smart like you say, he'll hopefully figure out that his new rider (you) wants something a little different than his previous rider.

I wonder if you keep a light contact with elastic hands but really focus on working his *hind end* without worrying about the face, he'll learn to come up at the withers and poll but keep your contact. Challenging him with exercises that require good balance and engagement on his part, like counter canter, leg yields, shoulder in (the mother of all exercises IMO), haunches in, haunches in-to-shoulder in and back, transitions within the gaits while he *stays engaged*, etc., you can strengthen his hind legs/topline and improve his balance. The less fuss with the face, the easier it'll be to re-train the contact. If you put your leg on, it is hard for a horse to really speed up or dive on the forehand if he's doing shoulder-in or the other exercises correctly. They can only come up in the withers with a proper half-halt. As time goes on, it'll be easier and easier for him to carry himself. You say when he gets tired he gets BTV - no big deal. The stronger he gets, hopefully this will go away on it's own (especially if you focus on the hind end and not the face). Praise praise praise his good efforts and ignore honest mistakes as you go through the hassle of retraining what might be an ingrained habit. he's smart! He'll figure it out! Good luck! :D

[EqTrainer]

I would not use an arret (aka Cathy Morelli) on a horse doing what you describe. That is more appropriate IME for a horse who actually drops the contact. You say that your horse does not. Regardless, it's really not something you want to just "try" and as for using it as a system, well... I have seen it and I thought it was horrific.

Anyway - something I have found very helpful with horses who do this is to not forget that it is also a lateral issue. We get so caught up in the head/the leg that we can forget there is more to it than just that. Yes, ideally you will ultimately teach your horse that when you close your leg, he gives you more impulsion, not more speed, but that's only part of the issue.

So... when he gets locked up longitudinally, pay attention to what is happening laterally. If you use a big, opening rein and keep his body straight at the same time, he has to lengthen his neck and reach out. This sounds really simple but the act of having the horse truly reaching around and following the rein is not that easy in most cases. So really.. pay attention that he does not pop his shoulder, that he does not swing his haunches out, that he does not lay on your inside leg. As SOON as he begins to come around and follow the rein/lengthen his neck, let go of that opening rein and give him a pat on the neck and tell him he's a good boy. Caution: this is a retraining exercise, not how you will ride your horse forever. You are showing him something he is not aware he can do. Once he learns to reach out, you will only need to "remind" him once in a while.

You will also need to honestly evaluate what your inside hand habitually does. If you are like most people - human :) - you might pull back with it. A good exercise to begin understanding what you do, and what you want to do, is to close your leg and push your inside hand forward a tiny bit at the same time. As your leg makes the energy and your seat modulates it, your hand invites the horse to chase after the bit, rather than give to it. Eventually the horse learns to look for your hand and to trust your hand that you will GIVE rather than take back. I have retrained 15 year old horses to do this so it can be done :)

Along w/evaluating your inside hand, pay attention that your outside aids are functioning and doing the majority of the work turning. Again, the horse needs to be on the end of the rein - think about him being *straight* on your outside rein and long in the neck to do so. You can't pull on your inside rein and have this happen. So it's a way of checking yourself, again, that you are not taking back.

If you have ever been taught to use your hand to "soften his jaw" or any of the other terms for noodling with the inside rein, it's time to stop. Your hand gets to use an opening rein to invite him out and it gets to give. That's it for now! More sophisticated rein aids such as an indirect rein of opposition are inappropriate for this situation.

Last - learn to do standing flexions so your horse learns to keep his neck long and straight and soften his jaw to the rein aids, not his entire neck. Have someone teach you. I think this is one of the hardest things to learn without instruction and unless you are really gifted in learning from books and pictures, I am not sure it can be done.

[lstevenson]

I would not use an arret (aka Cathy Morelli) on a horse doing what you describe. That is more appropriate IME for a horse who actually drops the contact. You say that your horse does not. Regardless, it's really not something you want to just "try" and as for using it as a system, well... I have seen it and I thought it was horrific.

Anyway - something I have found very helpful with horses who do this is to not forget that it is also a lateral issue. We get so caught up in the head/the leg that we can forget there is more to it than just that. Yes, ideally you will ultimately teach your horse that when you close your leg, he gives you more impulsion, not more speed, but that's only part of the issue.

So... when he gets locked up longitudinally, pay attention to what is happening laterally. If you use a big, opening rein and keep his body straight at the same time, he has to lengthen his neck and reach out. This sounds really simple but the act of having the horse truly reaching around and following the rein is not that easy in most cases. So really.. pay attention that he does not pop his shoulder, that he does not swing his haunches out, that he does not lay on your inside leg. As SOON as he begins to come around and follow the rein/lengthen his neck, let go of that opening rein and give him a pat on the neck and tell him he's a good boy. Caution: this is a retraining exercise, not how you will ride your horse forever. You are showing him something he is not aware he can do. Once he learns to reach out, you will only need to "remind" him once in a while.

You will also need to honestly evaluate what your inside hand habitually does. If you are like most people - human :) - you might pull back with it. A good exercise to begin understanding what you do, and what you want to do, is to close your leg and push your inside hand forward a tiny bit at the same time. As your leg makes the energy and your seat modulates it, your hand invites the horse to chase after the bit, rather than give to it. Eventually the horse learns to look for your hand and to trust your hand that you will GIVE rather than take back. I have retrained 15 year old horses to do this so it can be done :)

Along w/evaluating your inside hand, pay attention that your outside aids are functioning and doing the majority of the work turning. Again, the horse needs to be on the end of the rein - think about him being *straight* on your outside rein and long in the neck to do so. You can't pull on your inside rein and have this happen. So it's a way of checking yourself, again, that you are not taking back.

If you have ever been taught to use your hand to "soften his jaw" or any of the other terms for noodling with the inside rein, it's time to stop. Your hand gets to use an opening rein to invite him out and it gets to give. That's it for now! More sophisticated rein aids such as an indirect rein of opposition are inappropriate for this situation.

Last - learn to do standing flexions so your horse learns to keep his neck long and straight and soften his jaw to the rein aids, not his entire neck. Have someone teach you. I think this is one of the hardest things to learn without instruction and unless you are really gifted in learning from books and pictures, I am not sure it can be done.



Great post. I totally agree.

What I will add is that CORRECTLY ridden half halts will also help your horse come up in the poll when he curls. Really focusing on using your seat and legs to engage the horse and send him into receiving hands. It may only work for a couple of strides at a time at first, but as he gets stronger he will be able to carry himself for longer periods.

[rileyt]

I also agree with EqTrainer.

Having ridden a number of retraining projects (including OTTBs), this is a problem I have far too much experience with! :)

The only other suggestion I have is doing MANY MANY correct "stretchy circles". With horses like this, you need to constantly re-inforce the "seeking the bit" concept, and so many many transitions between regular trot circles, and then stretchy circles, and then trot circle, and then stretchy -- you get the idea.

And the second you feel them starting to back off the bit, push them forward out and down and into a nice stretchy circle.

I've found that this really helps them re-learn that principles of down and OUT.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

They're taught that when galloping daily. They're taught to pull and after enuff times most of them find it very easy to curl up and go behind the vertical. I never met an OTTB that ddidnt do it.

Yes, he raced (actually won some money ;-)

These responses are great. I will need to come back to them and read them in depth (when I'm not at work).

He does always stay on the bit and if I let him will get heavy or lean on it for support, but I don't.

[SisterToSoreFoot]

These are really interesting for me to read as well. The morgan I'm working with likes to bobble between above the bit and curled below, with a stretch thrown in there. EqTrainer's advice about watching your inside hand is CRITICAL, and her suggestion about using an open, leading rein to establish both stretch AND contact is a great suggestion that my own instructor recommended. It's been very effective to break up my horse's locked, stiff neck. Opening one rein then the other and asking the horse to follow really had an instant effect for him.

But really, watch that inside hand. You might find you're hanging on it. See what happens if you loosen it dramatically while maintaining a firm outside rein. If the horse starts to come into a better shape/contact, that's a clue.

[rileyt]

One further thought on EqTrainer's terrific post...

As she states, horses who usually curl up behind the bit, are also frequently crunched/crooked in the body.

The whole idea is to get them to stretch out... and in order to do this, they MUST be straight.

My stretchy circle exercise is built on that foundation. When the horse is absolutely straight, lifts its back, and is moving forward with energy, you can use your seat to direct that energy OUTWARDS. Its something you should do with every horse, but the seat aids may need to be more forceful with a horse who tends to curl (don't equate forceful with rough... I just mean, more defined, and perhaps quicker).

So, my only additional thought is this: I think the stretchy circle is a great exercise, but it only works if your horse is straight, and lifting his back. I've seen a lot of lousy stretchy circles in my life... and doing lousy stretchy circles will do nothing to help this problem. But if you've got him straight and lifting, its great.

So - first... make sure he's straight, and that he's lifting his back. Everything else flows from there...

[mbm]

i didnt read all the posts - but i think that pretty much forward works to cure a lot of stuff. so get his hiney working and most likely his head/neck will take care of themselves.

for a horse that really curls, upward transitions can help to bring them more up -.. but in the end you probably are not forward enough.

[EqTrainer]

The problem w/"more forward" on a horse like the OP describes, is that he has already learned to balance w/his head on his chest. Sending him more "forward" will only make him run right now. It may also scare him and make him more tense. This is actually a response she is going to have to retrain, also, that I did not get into in my previous post. After she shows him that he can reach his neck/head out and balance that way, she will be able to teach him that the leg means more impulsion, not speed.

Slowing everything down and showing him what she wants will give him a little more time to think, a little more direction, and will build impulsion instead of speed, because when you work in a slower tempo deliberately, the horse has to push a little more to get his back up, keep it there and make a connection. There is less momentum "helping" him. I hate to generalize but for a hotter, sensitive TB this is a great method for changing the response to the aids.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

Eq...I think you have really hit the nail on the head. I do not do the "working of the bit" on the inside, or whatever people call it, but if it is done on him he will drop SUPER low in the poll. I do think he was trained to do that because it is so automatic.

I realy try to almost "ride his shoulders" more than worry about what his head is doing. One thing I have tried, at the canter, when I work to keep him together (or not totally on the forehand) he wants to cheat by swinging his haunches to the inside. The thing I've been doing, a tiny bit, is almost like asking for a turn on the haunches at the canter (actually positioning his shoulder, not his head) and reinforcing with leg and this does actually keep him straighter and more on his haunches, but is very hard for him to do and I only ask a few times. I'm not actually doing a turn on the haunches, just connecting with the outside rein and using my seat to keep his shoulder from popping outside and it seems to keep him straighter, but like I said, is very hard work for him.

mbm...I normally would agree 100% with you but he is very forward. I know exactly the type of rides you are talking about though.

Also, standing flexions. I need to do more! My instructor did tell me to use those every time I ride and I've been letting him get away with not doing them and need to come back to it (he HATES to stand still and I was letting naughty winter friskiness get in the way).

Re: stretchy circles. They "look" fabulous until the second half of the circle where I shorten rein and the horse is supposed to come back up. He just gets heavier and heavier. Leg makes him go faster. How do you keep the stretchy circle from getting so on the forehand? I can't seem to keep him light.

I appreciate everyone's ideas, btw.

[mbm]

fwiw, i "cured" a curler - and i have 3 OTTBS now, 2 of which i am riding. and what worked and what *still* works is to work forward. and, every time i think i have her forward enough my trainer tells me no - you need to be FORWARD! and he is right - it works every time!

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

mbm..I'm not saying you aren't right. I shouldn't have used the word "curl" as that implies lack of contact. I also should clarify that while off the track he is trained through second level (not by me) and is very "broke"...I just think it is fundamentally incorrect.

Interstingly I ride regularly with one local instructor and clinic with two others (both successful competitors) and they have very different philosophies. One is always pushing forward, forward, forward and the other slows everything down.

I think it is a great idea to try new things and take what works best for that particular horse and I look forward to trying different ideas suggested here.

I shall keep you posted!

[EqTrainer]

mbm.. it would be really helpful for the OP if you explained to her HOW you rode your horses more forward without them rushing. :)

If a horse is *evading* contact, I find that asking them to GO will sometimes get them uncomfortable enough in their balance that they will reach out their neck to balance and voila! then I can half halt them into the rythym (why can't I spell that word in the AM?!!) I want and show them that this is a nicer place to be. But if they are taking contact and they are curling up, if I ask them to go MORE they just run faster and stay right where they are. If they have been trained to do this, they are good at it :lol: The legs go, go, go but the topline stays stiff. Now.. once they are uncurled, yes, they do need to be taught to go forward and take the bit out. But forward and just going are not the same thing.

True forward, as in - in front of her leg and reaching out, hind end stepping under, back up - would be what comes after uncurling the horse, IME. True forward will require the OP to be able to use her seat to begin controlling his back, therefore modulating the activity of his hind legs and changing it to impulsion. She will need to have at least a tentative connection of activity to his mouth to do this, so the circle of the aids is completed.

Once the cycle of the aids is complete, then yes, everything you do from that point forward will require you to ride more forward - not faster! - but more forward meaning more impulsion, more activity, into a better balance.

The OP says her horse has been off the track for a long time and has been retrained to do this. It's not quite the same as an OTTB. FWIW I have had all sorts of OTTB's and yes, the ones who do evade contact completely often need to learn to just GO because they had their mind on everything but that one thing. And I've had lots of them who come off the track, look for my hand right away and get right in front of my leg. I've also had the sort that grabs the bit and runs like a bat out of hell. Asking them to go faster would get you killed. Letting go of one rein and letting them decide to not fall down works best for them IMO. Horses on the track are started and ridden by a variety of people and are individuals themselves, so they come off the track w/a myriad of issues and non-issues depending on how things were. It's not always disasterous. What you can usually count on is that they have a work ethic :) So that is one kind of retraining.

Retraining a horse to balance in a different way than he has been taught(which is what the OP is going to do) is different than those examples of retraining. Of course we have not seen the horse, but from what she describes, the horse has been trained by the "hold the bit and push the horse at it" philosophy. So the horse learns to set his head and the contact is never dynamic... the horse does not chase the bit. You can see horses trained this way everywhere, they look ok but there is no elasticity. If you lengthen the rein, the horse does not know to chase the bit as his idea was that he is stopped at the bit. That is what RileyT was saying about riding a stretchy circle only being helpful if the horse will actually stretch :lol: the stretchy circle is supposed to be *proof* that the horse is not being ridden to *give* to the bit, but to chase the bit. Later the inside rein is supposed to be held forward for a few strides to show that the horse is in self carriage. You can see lots horses fail to be able to do a stretchy circle at any horse show, and the riders always ask WHY? because they don't understand it is a byproduct of correct riding, not just a single isolated movement like Canter At A. You are proving that your work is correct when the horse takes the bit down and out. You don't train the horse to stretch, you train the horse to chase the bit, and then he will stretch.

mbm, this is not directed at you other than asking how your trainer had you do that, I am just really not wanting to go clean stalls when it is only 19 degrees outside so I am stalling and blabbering on about my pet peeve, the horse who is nailed to the bit and why he won't stretch.

[mbm]

re: forward..... it is not speed - it is a "state of being" i guess.... where the horse is allowing the energy to travel through their body and isnt blocking.

and the rider needs to have a sensitive, steady, EVEN contact ... if the horse wants to hide behind the aids - send it forward, put it on various bended lines asking it to work - it will have to come more up to balance.

what i found is that it will take a long time... it isnt a quick fix - but little by little the horse will start coming more up and then one day a year down the road you will think - "hey! s/he hasn't curled in ages"! - or at least - that is what happed with me and my mare.

also do a lot of LY and or upward transitions asking the horse to come UP. or during canter do as square a corner as possible - that will also get the horse UP.

do cavelletti's or small jumps...that also teaches the horse to come up.

but there is no quick fix. and as in all things - forward is the ultimate way to get the horse working correctly and also a the rider haveing a good quiet , non pulling, giving hand - not a blocking hand etc.

and fwiw, i suck at writing descrptions - altho i know how it should feel on the horse :)

if you want - pick up klimke or Podhasjky - they both give a good description of who to work the horse correctly.

[LarissaL]

I'm super interested in this thread. I have a 17 year old TB, also got him last year, who sounds very similar. I'm new to reworking a well schooled horse (I usually do remedial work with the real problem kids!) so am loving EqTrainer and rileyt's advice so far. Very comprehensive and easy to understand.

What do you find is usually the motivation for horses that do this down-and-in thing? Did previous training actually establish this as their "frame"? Or is it an evasion? A form of grabbing the bit and resisting? Or just a result of being consistently on the forehand/not pushing from behind/not straight/etc?

I haven't yet been able to pinpoint the source of my horse's "frame." I imagine it is partially training (or at least, lack of UNtraining if he learned to evade that way), but it also sort of seems like a mental state for him. He's a sensitive, thinking type and when he gets down and tucked I can literally feel an anxious energy cycling through him. He's not necessarily rushing more, or pulling, or anything else that physically SHOWS a more hyperactive state.. but I just sense a switch in his brain that goes from feeling like he is quietly trying to cooperate to feeling like he is overthinking evvverything.

The "forward" thing definitely doesn't work with him. It amps up that nervous energy. Lateral work is good for him, especially just briefly incorporating it into our work. I especially like a canter-trot transition to leg yield for him. The other thing I've found is, I think, similar to EqTrainer's idea of opening rein and leading him out.. I pick my hands up a little and stretch them forward towards his ears. I keep a feel of his mouth and don't make it a ridiculously exaggerated move, but it seems to work to actually direct him up and out a bit.

His usual "frame" is something between these two:
can become more tucked than this (http://s542.photobucket.com/albums/gg429/llefebure1/?action=view&current=Glue2.jpg) (oh, and yes, I have brokenwrist-takingbackwiththeinsidehand syndrome)
but not usually so low as this (http://s542.photobucket.com/albums/gg429/llefebure1/?action=view&current=glue1.jpg)

So the horse learns to set his head and the contact is never dynamic... the horse does not chase the bit. You can see horses trained this way everywhere, they look ok but there is no elasticity. If you lengthen the rein, the horse does not know to chase the bit as his idea was that he is stopped at the bit.

This is the reason I would never "bump" this horse up. He already has a backed off reaction to hitting the bit and I wouldn't want to give him a lighter, or less forward-reaching, reaction to it.

[mbm]

fwiw, forward, if done correctly will settle a horse - especially if they have abundant energy - because a horse cant work if they are too energetic.... they need to get to a space of being drivable - and forward - whether in canter or trot - can help get a horse to a place of being drivable.

as for MDeventer - while i dont want to critique - the pics posted do not look like a horse that is in front of your leg - he looks decidedly behind the leg which would be the reason for the curling.

honestly- if forward isn't "curing" the issue - your aren't really forward.... you are either rushing or the horse is behind the leg. honest! :)

and also, just fwiw, i always think "yeah, my horse is forward enough" and then my trainer comes along and says FORWARD! and of course most issues melt away :) i think most ammies just don't understand forward and what it really is - and like my trainer says - if it is comfy and feels nice - you arent asking for enough...... :)

[LarissaL]

as for MDeventer - while i dont want to critique - the pics posted do not look like a horse that is in front of your leg - he looks decidedly behind the leg which would be the reason for the curling.

No worries! He is. My few photos/videos I had my boyfriend take so I could see my crookedness and attempts to fix it and pair it up with how it feels (a major work in progress). Perfectly fine to disregard them if they don't suit the discussion. For what it's worth, the issue occurs even when the horse is working more and under a trainer. So I'm still listenings :)

[EqTrainer]

Back in the house to warm up - I am such a wussy girl about the cold!

Ok, mbm, maybe I can help you break this down for her?

What do you do when the horse rushes?

What do you do when your trainer says more forward?

Literally.. what do you do w/your body?

I know what you are talking about.. I "feel" the same way/thing.. but just saying more forward doesn't help anyone to define exactly what to do.. the age old problem of riding :)
--

Yes, forward is in the horses mind, it's the quality of responsiveness to the riders aids, and the understanding of the riders aids. It's also tied in with submissiveness, which allows the horse to give his body to the rider to take along w/them. But developing forwardness is exactly that.. developing it (like mbm says, she gets to the trainer and it's time to develop MORE forwardness!). You don't develop it by just running the horse around. So..

am I the only one freezing today and grateful to be inside at the computer? It would be fun to have a group discussion about how you develop forward in a horse who has learned to evade the aids by curling up but not dropping the contact.

What role does the half halt play here? What type of half halt is most likely to be helpful? What part of the horse is not attentive to the rider in most of these cases?

How did the horse get like this? Well, like I said, I think it's because a lot of people think this is actually the way it is supposed to be. Sure, lots of horses visit this place on their training path but apparently some of them get kept here. Is the horse really being evasive if he has been taught to do this?

[mbm]

Back in the house to warm up - I am such a wussy girl about the cold!

Ok, mbm, maybe I can help you break this down for her?

What do you do when the horse rushes?

What do you do when your trainer says more forward?

Literally.. what do you do w/your body?

I know what you are talking about.. I "feel" the same way/thing.. but just saying more forward doesn't help anyone to define exactly what to do.. the age old problem of riding :)
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when the horses rushes, depending on various things, i might just put them on a appropriately sized circle, or do a serpentine etc. and when i ask the horse to go on to this figure i try to NOT do more with the mouth that i have to to allow the horse to rebalance and come more up.

i have found that the more i am on the horses face (at this stage of training) the LESS the horse will rebalance and use its head/neck properly..... when trainer says more forward i apply the appropriate leg aid and allow the horse to take that into more energy forward...... dont worry about where the head/neck are - just that the horse is responding to my driving aids..... once the horse is sufficiently active, then depending on its level i would ask for level speficic and appropriate bending lines to allow the horse to bend in its body and then finally once it is bended i would ask it to flex in the jaw.

ALL of this is ridden with a soft following hand that allows the horse to use is neck as needed... it is no good to ask the horse to come up and then block it from doing so.

also, i just want to say that the very first thing i do with any horse is to see how it responds to 3 very basics aids - go - stop - turn. and if you have read Kyra's book that is exactly how i am taught. then once i have those i work on the horse moving off my leg - so TOF , LY etc.

anyway, a curling or behind the bit horse is blocked and evading the aids. the thing to do is to figure out WHERE they are blocked and address that blockage... generally horses are not forward enough and not straight enough to be forward. bended lines helps the horse be more straight... but you cant get straight unless the horse is drivable the two are very intertwined.....

and finally i would say that t give yourself plenty of time.. this is not something that can be fixed in day or a week or a month. and it cant be fixed if the rider is crooked, pulling, non independent seat etc. in the end it is all about feel...... feel where the horse i s blocked.... address that blockage.

also re: HH - a horse that isnt thru cant be half halted. you can however do rudimentary HHs by asking the horse to slow down or pay attention etc. but they are not half halts in the real sense. of course all of the above is based on me a) not being a real trainer, b) not riding the OPs horse.... c) but it is also based on me riding many horses over many years..... and curing a curler and a behind the leg horses.... and riding OTTBs in various stages of retraining. :)

oh! as for teaching the horse to seek the bit (chase the bit) what i find works REALLY well is the SI in hand on a small circle... there is a diagram of it on sustainable dressage... i will go see if i can find it - this was KEY to teaching my horses to seek the bit and it is great for refreshers etc.

brb. found it!
http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/shoulder-in_volte.php

[meupatdoes]

Something that helps me with this is to ride with a "forward tendency in the hand".

I want my hands to be forward, out in front of me. I do that first and then shorten the reins to suit (as opposed to shortening the reins until my hands are where I want them). This way my hands stay in the same "forward tendency", and if I need to tweak the contact I adjust the reins. It helps prevent the too-long rein, hands-sliding-toward-crotch-to-find-the-contact-again issue.
You know your reins are short enough when squeezing your fist gets something done: you do not want your half halt to have to travel a long way down the rein, necessitating extra movement in your arm.

I also want the horse to have a "forward tendency" in my hand. I want him to carry the bit and address it like a gentleman, but I also want him to gently nudge his nose into my hand. I want a foward tendency there, always dynamic. If I resist slightly by squeezing my fingers, I want a softening response, but the instant I get it I relax, encouraging him to reach up and out and place his nose in my hand. Imagine a cupped palm in front of his nose for him to meet.
Down the longside I might do it five or six times, "OK, softly, ok reaching now, ok softly, ok meet me now etc etc."

I want that contact to be dynamic, with a forward tendency in the hand.

Oh and btw I am h/j'er who pilots TBs too, so I feel ya.