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View Full Version : Montana gov. offical wants all pitbulls in her state destroyed..please help



dalpal
Jan. 13, 2009, 06:28 PM
For all of our pitbull owners and dog lovers....please take a moment and write Ms. Driscoll an email (address on the link below) and let her know how you feel about this bill. She wants ALL pitbulls rounded up in her state and euthanized.

http://www.animallawcoalition.com/breed-bans/article/650

Blinkers On
Jan. 13, 2009, 06:40 PM
It's so wrong. I get so cranky when people judge my pit just because they are ignorrant. My pit is an amazing dog. The BS that fuels BSl is the biggest load of garbage! I wish people would meet her(my pitt) before they judge her. It's amazing how opinions change when they meet her. Even if they have reserves about the breed, they melt away in a heartbeat!
If history has taught us anything is that ethnic cleansing is so wrong. And once one "ethnic" group is "removed" then there will always be another.

3 dog attack fatalities in the last 43 years...??? So there are ample pits running rampant in Montana killing people? What is the basis for needing BSL in a state that really has next to 0 dog attack related deaths in the last 43 years?

dalpal
Jan. 13, 2009, 06:46 PM
It's so wrong. I get so cranky when people judge my pit just because they are ignorrant. My pit is an amazing dog. The BS that fuels BSl is the biggest load of garbage! I wish people would meet her(my pitt) before they judge her. It's amazing how opinions change when they meet her. Even if they have reserves about the breed, they melt away in a heartbeat!
If history has taught us anything is that ethnic cleansing is so wrong. And once one "ethnic" group is "removed" then there will always be another.


Hey, I've never owned a Pitbull and this bill infuriates me.......its a DOG!!! There are good and bad in EVERY breed...and there are good and bad owners with EVERY breed. I sent her a letter on behalf of those dogs. I couldn't imagine having to turn my dog over to the government to be killed, just because of his breed.

poltroon
Jan. 13, 2009, 06:49 PM
It certainly leaves me wondering what bee flew into her, um, bonnet.

What a terrible proposal.

Blinkers On
Jan. 13, 2009, 06:55 PM
If my dog were subject to this trype of BS, I'd be living somewhere else in a heartbeat! Ignorrance is bliss for whom? The pit? The people who love them? And care for them and make the useful members in society?
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/christyj/Dogs/DSCF0104.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/christyj/Dogs/DSCF0298.jpg

She comes very high on my list of priorities!

dalpal
Jan. 13, 2009, 06:59 PM
If my dog were subject to this trype of BS, I'd be living somewhere else in a heartbeat! Ignorrance is bliss for whom? The pit? The people who love them? And care for them and make the useful members in society?
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/christyj/Dogs/DSCF0104.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/christyj/Dogs/DSCF0298.jpg

She comes very high on my list of priorities!

What a cutie......yeah, she looks really vicious in those pictures. :no: Hopefully this nut's bill will never pass.

equinelaw
Jan. 13, 2009, 07:04 PM
The proposed bill seems to grandfather in all the Pit Bulls already there.

(3) The prohibition in this section does not apply to a person who:

(a) owned a pit bull dog and registered the ownership of the dog with the county government and obtained a license tag identifying the dog as a registered pit bull dog on or before [the effective date of this act];

Its still stupid, but they will not be killing the dogs already in the state.

sisu27
Jan. 13, 2009, 07:05 PM
What an F-tard.

Don't even have the breed but it begs the question who or what would be next?

Most people suck.

Silvercrown90
Jan. 13, 2009, 07:12 PM
BSL is BS. Using this logic, then we should euthanize all white men because Charlie Manson was a killer. I don't own a pit, but I am strongly against BSL (in case you can't tell). My family owned a pit bull when I was a kid, and he was the best dog we had while I was growing up.

I will send the governor an e-mail, but I urge everyone to write a letter (not just e-mail) since it has so much more impact than e-mail.

Sharon
http://www.coolfitwear.com

Silvercrown90
Jan. 13, 2009, 07:31 PM
I just wrote a respectful e-mail to Ms. Driscoll. But now that I think about it, I think we need to ban Female Democrats. It is obvious they can't be trusted, and are a hazard to society.

Blinkers On
Jan. 13, 2009, 07:41 PM
:eek::winkgrin:

Foxtrot's
Jan. 13, 2009, 07:43 PM
I don't think she would listen to me - I probably would be rude. Idiot.

LuvMyNSH
Jan. 13, 2009, 08:22 PM
I want to know who voted this idiot into office. Was she the only choice or what? :confused: I can't believe that someone this dumb didn't show glimpses of it during the campaign.

3 fatalities in 43 years, none of which involved pit bulls = banning pits? WTF?

And how are they going to define a pit? American Pit Bull Terriers? American Staffordshire Terriers? Staffordshire Bull Terriers? Bull Terriers? American Bulldogs? Or just kill it if it "sort of looks like a pit" ?

equinelaw
Jan. 13, 2009, 08:24 PM
That's in The proposed bill too. If you want to prove your dog is not a Pit you have to pay for it and the hearing.

All those are mentioned plus any dog that looks like it might be one.

AiryFairy
Jan. 13, 2009, 08:27 PM
The woman is an idiot. I don't believe in painting with that broad a brush, that's ridiculous, what's her personal beef? It's extreme, but, speaking as someone whose innocent dog was just mauled by three pits and was lucky to not be eviscerated on the spot, I can't say that there isn't some merit in paying them special attention if they've already been a problem. The owners of the dogs expressed shock that their beloved pets could do something so horrible, completely missing the fact that 1) pits have a prey drive, they're hard wired that way, you don't get rid of it, you only manage it wisely, and 2) when you have three, you have a PACK. Let them run loose and they act like one. their dogs go to day care, socialize with other dogs and have never had a problem. Till now. I was stunned at the ferocity of the attack, and still can't think about it without having a panic attack, it was one of the most frightening things I've ever witnessed, my dog's screams will never leave my memory.

Add to that that unfortunately a large number of owners of pits are just looking for 'dicks on a leash', it's a macho thing, and the more vicious they are the better they like them, their reputation isn't entirely undeserved. There are a lot of bad owners, and some bad dogs. I'm a big fan of Cesar and love that he's taken his dogs and given them new lives, but he's a good leader, and Cesar's are few and far between.

TrotTrotPumpkn
Jan. 13, 2009, 08:35 PM
Unfortunately there seems to be a rash of this going on around me too. I'm a member of the kennel club and this is the topic of choice right now. Many towns in SD and I've heard of legislation in NE as well, are seeking to ban not only pits, but dobermans, GSD, wolf hybrids, Rottis, Akitas, etc., or "any other agressive breed." (Good luck defining that).

There are two towns within 20 miles of me that I actually couldn't move to because I have 2 dobermans, or if I did they have to be neutered/spayed (they are) I have to have a six foot fence WITH a seperate fenced-in dog run, they must be muzzled at all times in the public venue and on leash.

I know it sounds just insane, but there are ALOT of people supporting this insanity then. One town outlawed GSD because a man on the board had heard a story of a retired police dog attacking someone before (not there of course).

Seriously don't get me started, but something has to be done to educate the public. This is a huge problem.

Blinkers On
Jan. 13, 2009, 08:38 PM
I'm sorry that your dog was on the recieving end of "pack mentality!" I've watched my own dog.. not the pit, the other one a white shepherd mix.. start acting with pack mentality when with a yellow lab and a mix breed coyote looking also shepherd mix dog. Something I will not allow! I am responsible for their lives if I allow pack mentality I allow my dogs to act stupidly and that is irresponsible. That gives idiots like this woman some wacky leg to stand on. I will never do that.

TrotTrotPumpkn
Jan. 13, 2009, 08:39 PM
Have to add if cities would just ENFORCE THEIR LEASH LAWS I think most attacks would never occur...dog to dog or dog to human.

I've had TWO dogs attack me and my dogs while on a walk. Both loose and not under control of their owners. One a male lab who was seriously scary (he had his junk ;-) came after my mother, sister and I and both dobes (and I'm holding my male's muzzle because you know what dog is getting in trouble if something goes down...mine...) and another an English Springer Spaniel, who I was able to scream away after she bit my female doberman in the face (female dobe is a total puss and had no idea what to do...she thinks every dog is her best friend).

I love springers and labs, I just point out breed to point out how stupid these laws are.

pintopiaffe
Jan. 13, 2009, 08:44 PM
Isn't the actuality that Black labs are the culprits in more dog bites a year than ANY other breed???

TrotTrotPumpkn
Jan. 13, 2009, 08:47 PM
One more thought, because I'm getting fired up. Has anyone attacked this type of legislation with a 5th amendment argument? Outcome?

The one that says a person shall not "be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law." I think there is a strong argument that dogs are property.

Also, this is fair to those who seek to destroy dangerous animals after due process ... in other words "Punish the deed, not the Breed!"

I WOULD support $ a 5th amendment law suit if the facts were right...just wondering if it has been done.

Blinkers On
Jan. 13, 2009, 08:58 PM
Equinelaw?? Any thoughts?

AiryFairy
Jan. 13, 2009, 08:59 PM
The one that says a person shall not "be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law." I think there is a strong argument that dogs are property.


They sure are considered property, and they're pretty much worthless. Just try to get some compensation if you lose your dog. I didn't sue when my dog was attacked, I could have but the owners paid the bill, probably to keep the claim from ever showing up with their insurance company. Even a legitimate malpractice claim would cost you far more than your dog would be worth, which is a few hundred dollars, at most.

AiryFairy
Jan. 13, 2009, 09:06 PM
Isn't the actuality that Black labs are the culprits in more dog bites a year than ANY other breed???

I don't know if that's true, but right about the time my dog was attacked, my friend's greyhound was attacked, by a Lab, ripped his chest open and required about 20 staples. Oh, according to this, it's ten year old - pits and rotties lead the way:
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:nvs7Tbl77BYJ:www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf+dog+attacks+by+breed&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

JSwan
Jan. 13, 2009, 09:25 PM
3 dog attack fatalities in the last 43 years...??? So there are ample pits running rampant in Montana killing people? What is the basis for needing BSL in a state that really has next to 0 dog attack related deaths in the last 43 years?


A constituent in the reps district was attacked recently. He was walking his dog and the pit crawled underneath the fence and attacked the guy and his dog. The dog almost died and the constituent is considering legal action against the owner.

The bill will probably die; the rep was probably just trying to respond to a constituents complaint and will withdraw it or just let it die and then be able to at least tell the constituent that she tried.

I don't like BSL either - it's the knee jerk reaction to the "I'm afraid of big black dogs" mentality. Still, this breed does do a helluva lot more damage when they attack than a pomeranian does. You've got to watch out for BSL and the "dangerous dog" registries. Some of these bills end up making any dog that chases a squirrel into a "dangerous dog".

It gets awfully ridiculous.

equinelaw
Jan. 13, 2009, 09:35 PM
Equinelaw?? Any thoughts?

Yeah, out of all the discussions on this subject both from dog people legislators, nobody a has ever said something so simple and brilliant as just enforce the leash laws! Attacks on non-family members are almost always loose dogs. It would be a hell of a lot easier and cheaper to just enforce the laws we already have and fine the crap out of people the first time they are off leash.

As of for being Governmental taking, if you look at the actual text, its not. They allow you to keep the dog you already have. They are just saying you cannot get any more. Nothing is being taken--its just being outlawed in the future.

Its a valid point in places where the law was not properly constructed. However, it would actually have to be fought all the way to the Supreme Court to get a ruling that would get you the $100 or so the dog is worth, if they even took the case.

If I had a few extra million and they took my dog I'd argue it, but being right doesn't get you the Law, being well funded is the only way to do that.

I had a pair of Pit bulls years ago. I would never have them again because of all the crap I went through to own them. The last one was taken out of my yard, for no reason except she barked at a kid on the other side of the fence, and killed. As I have mentioned before, that pissed me off. It became the law school application essay that got me a honors scholarship. It has a lot to do with why I am a lawyer.

I have paid attention for about 15 years now? I do not like the trend, but I do not see anyone fighting it. Those who can afford to fight can afford to move or afford to ignore the laws.

I like Pit bulls and have never had a problem with one. Trying to convince a court about that is another story.

I would actually attack this law based on some other right. I know it sounds stupid, but I'd have a better chance proving its based on the race of the owners then the breed of the dog. And those cases include attorneys fees if you win.

equinelaw
Jan. 13, 2009, 09:40 PM
I don't know if that's true, but right about the time my dog was attacked, my friend's greyhound was attacked, by a Lab, ripped his chest open and required about 20 staples. Oh, according to this, it's ten year old - pits and rotties lead the way:
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:nvs7Tbl77BYJ:www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf+dog+attacks+by+breed&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us


The dog bite lists usually only include the dogs that do reportable damage. If they were accurate the Cocker Spaniel would top the list.

Labs do not top the list. The breed responsible for 50% of all reported attacks is. . . drum roll. . . . . . mixed breed or unknown.
The other 49% is broken down by the usual suspects. Usually 10 of them so the dogs at the top of the list could really only be responsible for less then 10% of attacks.

Blinkers On
Jan. 13, 2009, 10:06 PM
Thanks Equinelaw.
I say I'll never own another breed than pit. maybe that would change if someone took my girl from me. I've never met such loyalty and character. What she has endured in the last 9 weeks has not changed her personality. She has had 2 surgeries, serious confinement, and she is still happy go lucky, silly and fun and a cuddle bug. During that time she went on a road trip that was 30 hours one way, met new people, kids, lived in new living spaces, you name it she has done it all while in pain and ought to be grumpy from the pain and lack of activity. She has one more surgery left to remove the hardware in her leg, and she continues to impress me! She is a favorite everywhere she goes... and the common thing overheard is " ooh another vicious pitbull" dripping with sarcasm. Her wagging tail gives her away every time! Her tail wags her entire hind end!:D
She never "sinks" and always swims when introduced to something new.
I've been told she is an ambassador for the breed, should be a therapy dog. No one has anything bad to say once they meet her. I've done nothing special with her but educate and socialize. She blows me away! I would go more than half loopy if she was taken away and euthanized.
I researched the pit before I brought her home. And there is too much evidence to the fact that they are on the recieving end of unbelievable abuse! Their loyalty makes them a mark.
A girlfriend and I were talking recently. Her dog was a drug protecting dog till the day my friend adopted her at the age of 5. She was basically parked in front of a load of drugs and if she didn't protect it she was beaten.
She is a mix breed. No pit. She is now 15 For 10 years she has been nothing but an incredible story!
But we were talking about how our dogs are friendly but they are very aware of our comfort levels in situations. And how hackles go up. My old dog places himself between me and the person that is making me feel unsafe. Her's does the same.
To me those are good behaviours. Both of my dogs are FAR from aggressive, but they can look big and mean, even if they aren't.

AiryFairy
Jan. 13, 2009, 10:09 PM
The dog bite lists usually only include the dogs that do reportable damage. If they were accurate the Cocker Spaniel would top the list.

Labs do not top the list. The breed responsible for 50% of all reported attacks is. . . drum roll. . . . . . mixed breed or unknown.
The other 49% is broken down by the usual suspects. Usually 10 of them so the dogs at the top of the list could really only be responsible for less then 10% of attacks.

Here's another take on the statistics (and I guess you'd have to consider the source):
http://www.dogbitelaw.com/

Dog attacks are associated with one or more of the following circumstances:

* More than one dog in their own yard, and no master present. In 2008, 78% of the human fatalities were by dogs in their own yard.

* Pit bull, Rottweiler, Akita or Chow. Most fatal dog attacks are by pit bulls. In 2008, 65% of the fatalities were by pit bulls.

* The pack mentality. Three dogs are worse than 2, 4 are worse than 3, etc. Docile dogs often become uncharacteristically violent and vicious when they are in a pack. In 2008, 39% of the fatalities involved multiple dogs.

equinelaw
Jan. 13, 2009, 10:37 PM
Um. . . . that website is a mish mash of numbers picked out of other people's works. I don't know the guy, but "dog homicide":confused:

I looked past the stats he picked out to the paper he sites. The guy collected reports from 1980 something until now. He collected them from newspapers articles and other sources.

He has 1 Cocker Spaniel bite in all those years. I have been bitten by more Cockers than that in one year of dog grooming:) I did not, however, hold a press conference afterward. I just, like all other dog groomers, raised the price to groom Cockers and learned how to avoid being bit.

Certain breeds are more likely to kill because they can. That doesn't mean lots of other breeds don't try:)

Any dog large enough to kill might kill. When you have a pack of dogs they might kill.

But check out the actual link. Its kind of funny. He has a JRT listed because it bit a sick persons lip and they later died of the infection? A poodle that was involved in some kind of drug death? A pack of 10 Airedales? Giant Terriers are bad enough, but a pack of 10?? WTF?

He reported what he news reported and only reported identifiable breeds or mixes. He also explains that laws will not work and only a "certain class" of people have these dangerous dogs. Hmmm. What "class" would that be? Michael Vick's class perhaps?

That Plaintiff's attorney is not linking to the CDC site? Did I miss that somewhere?

78% were dogs off leash in the victims yard? Enforce the leash laws. That might weed out the asshats early on?


Ewwwwww. If I ever make a web-site that that one, please somebody stop me. I tried clicking on the links to the CDC and they take me back to the home page. He sells so-it-your self litigation stuff? Is this one man driving the whole panic?

TrotTrotPumpkn
Jan. 13, 2009, 10:38 PM
Here's another take on the statistics (and I guess you'd have to consider the source):
http://www.dogbitelaw.com/

Dog attacks are associated with one or more of the following circumstances:

* More than one dog in their own yard, and no master present. In 2008, 78% of the human fatalities were by dogs in their own yard.

* The pack mentality. Three dogs are worse than 2, 4 are worse than 3, etc. Docile dogs often become uncharacteristically violent and vicious when they are in a pack. In 2008, 39% of the fatalities involved multiple dogs.

Again, I bet the dogs in the yard were loose or chained. I do think chaining a dog makes them more agressive. They can't get away so you get a fear/aggression. If not chained then a person holding a leash should take care of it.

A pack of any kind of dog will be a problem. Unless you are Cesar Milan. Have you ever been to the dog park...viscous stuff. Crazy hyper pack of dogs.

Blinkers On: I love love love my dobermans too and am loyal to my breed, but I admit they have caused me stress. People cross the street when we are coming, even though they are at my side, in heel position and totally under control. I take obedience training seriously. I have to watch my male like a hawk because he does exhibit dog aggression in some group settings (no dogpark for him). He was a rescue and mistreated (don't get me started on the breed rescue itself...witholding some important info...like why the dog was surrendered). He has also given us an ER bill when my husband leaned over him when the dog was asleep and he snapped first and woke up second. Lots of pressure to put him down. I trust him 100 percent with us but not with kids or other dogs. Doesn't mind the cats though...

My whole point is that you have to be a responsible dog owner and there are people that never will be. But in creating laws there should be a level of fairness (not BSL) and you have to punish everyone breaking the law (leash law) or have harsher standards protecting victims.

Maybe I will just make sure my next doberman (helps if they are reds) has natural ears and a natural tail...What doberman? That's a redbone coon hound.

horsey nurse
Jan. 13, 2009, 10:52 PM
People are asshats. I have a mutt (most probably some pit) and a pure bred pit. Everyone that comes to my house wants to take "that white dog" home, meaning my pit bull. Many have a hard time believing she is a pit because she is sooooooo sweet. This lady deserves to loose her job and have her head checked. It makes me so mad. Oh look here is my pit now licking my hand to say "hi mom."

AiryFairy
Jan. 13, 2009, 11:02 PM
Um. . . . that website is a mish mash of numbers picked out of other people's works. I don't know the guy, but "dog homicide":confused:

I looked past the stats he picked out to the paper he sites. The guy collected reports from 1980 something until now. He collected them from newspapers articles and other sources.

He has 1 Cocker Spaniel bite in all those years. I have been bitten by more Cockers than that in one year of dog grooming:) I did not, however, hold a press conference afterward. I just, like all other dog groomers, raised the price to groom Cockers and learned how to avoid being bit.

Certain breeds are more likely to kill because they can. That doesn't mean lots of other breeds don't try:)

Any dog large enough to kill might kill. When you have a pack of dogs they might kill.

But check out the actual link. Its kind of funny. He has a JRT listed because it bit a sick persons lip and they later died of the infection? A poodle that was involved in some kind of drug death? A pack of 10 Airedales? Giant Terriers are bad enough, but a pack of 10?? WTF?

He reported what he news reported and only reported identifiable breeds or mixes. He also explains that laws will not work and only a "certain class" of people have these dangerous dogs. Hmmm. What "class" would that be? Michael Vick's class perhaps?

That Plaintiff's attorney is not linking to the CDC site? Did I miss that somewhere?

78% were dogs off leash in the victims yard? Enforce the leash laws. That might weed out the asshats early on?

Ewwwwww. If I ever make a web-site that that one, please somebody stop me. I tried clicking on the links to the CDC and they take me back to the home page. He sells so-it-your self litigation stuff? Is this one man driving the whole panic?

Well, like I said, consider the source, he might not be driving the whole panic, but he certainly seems to be trying to make a living from it, and has instructions on how to find the "deep pocket". You can even download his book! Nuff said. I think there's a big difference between dog bites, and dog attacks, the snappy little foofoo dogs who don't like their bums groomed vs. the stealth attack of three loose pit bulls, should be different stats if you ask me.

equinelaw
Jan. 13, 2009, 11:25 PM
I think the CDC site has some good stats. They have bites and deaths and breed. But his link would not take me there and I was too lazy:)

But thanks for pointing out that site. I can just see that guy with his fake tan and capped teeth and perfect hair shaking hands at some state house and making a big impact.

I have seen that site before, but my how it has grown!!!!

And do Pits have their tails docked? His source said one of the reasons they are hard to read is because of their docked tails. I have seen them with ears docked, but tails? Is that common?

And yeah, have a Dobe with long ears and tail and its suddenly a big Labx:)

I think there has been a recent explosion in the number of Pits and Pitx's so I would expect the stats to go up. Have they? Or is it just because I live in SC that I see soooo many of them?

AiryFairy
Jan. 13, 2009, 11:25 PM
A pack of any kind of dog will be a problem. Unless you are Cesar Milan. Have you ever been to the dog park...viscous stuff. Crazy hyper pack of dogs.

My whole point is that you have to be a responsible dog owner and there are people that never will be. But in creating laws there should be a level of fairness (not BSL) and you have to punish everyone breaking the law (leash law) or have harsher standards protecting victims.


Interestingly, one of Cesar's show last year showed him dealing with some vicious pits he was trying to rehab with his pack, suddenly one dog attacked another and it was an all out brawl, every dog in his pack was in the fight. That was shocking to me. Then precious Daddy was attacked by the female, and his response was to do nothing. I love that dog, I'd take him in a second.

Responsible dog owners, IMO count for about half. I was responsible, I was on public land, far away from anyone, my dog was on a six foot leash, and she still got mauled and nearly done in. I can't go to the beach EVER without some asshat's unleashed dog charging over with his teeth bared and his hackles up, spoiling for a fight. And the idiot yells "he's friendly!". Tell that to the Animal Control Officer, buddy.

Riley0522
Jan. 14, 2009, 12:02 PM
I think the CDC site has some good stats. They have bites and deaths and breed. But his link would not take me there and I was too lazy:)

But thanks for pointing out that site. I can just see that guy with his fake tan and capped teeth and perfect hair shaking hands at some state house and making a big impact.

I have seen that site before, but my how it has grown!!!!

And do Pits have their tails docked? His source said one of the reasons they are hard to read is because of their docked tails. I have seen them with ears docked, but tails? Is that common?

And yeah, have a Dobe with long ears and tail and its suddenly a big Labx:)

I think there has been a recent explosion in the number of Pits and Pitx's so I would expect the stats to go up. Have they? Or is it just because I live in SC that I see soooo many of them?


Nope, Pit Bulls should not have their tails docked. There are some Mastiff breeds that are often involved in attacks and dubbed "Pit Bulls" that have their tails docked.

BSL really disgusts me. I have had dogs (labs, chihuahuas, dobies, rotties, mutts, OES, and pit bulls) my entire life, and the most intelligent, sweetest dogs ever were the Pit Bulls. I would trust my Pit Bulls any day over the chihuahuas and the Old English Sheepdog who is VERY aggressive.

Currently I have 3 (two are mine, one a foster puppy), my parents have one I rescued as a pup, and my boyfriend's parents have 2 mixes that are rescues. My boyfriend and I volunteer for a Pit rescue and the horrendous things we have seen done to these dogs is unimaginable...and yet they still love humans. Dog aggression is more common in Pits than other dogs, but ANY dog can be dog aggressive, and it doesn't make it a bad dog, it just needs a GOOD home, which unfortunately are hard to come by.

I do believe that the Pit Bull is a powerful, intelligent, impressive dog that is not for everyone, but they really are great, and in the right hands make the BEST pets.

They tried proposing BSL here in Boston which got shot down luckily. We do have an ordinance that only the good pit owners follow so it's really stupid, because the people it SHOULD target are still walking around with their aggressive, un-fixed Pit Bulls on a chain....so sad.

Quackslikeaduck
Jan. 14, 2009, 01:01 PM
I just wrote a respectful e-mail to Ms. Driscoll. But now that I think about it, I think we need to ban Female Democrats. It is obvious they can't be trusted, and are a hazard to society.

AMEN!!!!!

Jumphigh83
Jan. 14, 2009, 01:05 PM
You liberal leftists might want to examine you collective consciences....BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR because you just might GET it... More erosion of freedoms and growth of the power of the STATE. Get govt OUT of my life. Please. This is disgraceful. I know...let's TAX it!

Moderator 1
Jan. 14, 2009, 01:31 PM
Please keep the general political commentary out of the discussion and focus on the dog-related issues themselves.

Thanks!
Mod 1

BigHorseLittleHorse
Jan. 14, 2009, 01:44 PM
A friend pointed me to this article:

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/02/06/060206fa_fact

Troublemakers: What Pit Bulls Can Teach Us About Profiling
by Malcolm Gladwell

The article is quite long, so if you don't have time to read the whole thing, here are some interesting quotes from it:

"A Georgia-based group called the American Temperament Test Society has put twenty-five thousand dogs through a ten-part standardized drill designed to assess a dog’s stability, shyness, aggressiveness, and friendliness in the company of people. A handler takes a dog on a six-foot lead and judges its reaction to stimuli such as gunshots, an umbrella opening, and a weirdly dressed stranger approaching in a threatening way. Eighty-four per cent of the pit bulls that have been given the test have passed, which ranks pit bulls ahead of beagles, Airedales, bearded collies, and all but one variety of dachshund."

"A pit bull is dangerous to people, then, not to the extent that it expresses its essential pit bullness but to the extent that it deviates from it. A pit-bull ban is a generalization about a generalization about a trait that is not, in fact, general. That’s a category problem."

“I’ve seen virtually every breed involved in fatalities, including Pomeranians and everything else, except a beagle or a basset hound,” Randall Lockwood, a senior vice-president of the A.S.P.C.A. and one of the country’s leading dogbite experts, told me. “And there’s always one or two deaths attributable to malamutes or huskies, although you never hear people clamoring for a ban on those breeds. When I first started looking at fatal dog attacks, they largely involved dogs like German shepherds and shepherd mixes and St. Bernards—which is probably why Stephen King chose to make Cujo a St. Bernard, not a pit bull. I haven’t seen a fatality involving a Doberman for decades, whereas in the nineteen-seventies they were quite common. If you wanted a mean dog, back then, you got a Doberman. I don’t think I even saw my first pit-bull case until the middle to late nineteen-eighties, and I didn’t start seeing Rottweilers until I’d already looked at a few hundred fatal dog attacks. Now those dogs make up the preponderance of fatalities. The point is that it changes over time. It’s a reflection of what the dog of choice is among people who want to own an aggressive dog.” (my emphasis)

"The dogs that bite people are, in many cases, socially isolated because their owners are socially isolated, and they are vicious because they have owners who want a vicious dog. The junk-yard German shepherd—which looks as if it would rip your throat out—and the German-shepherd guide dog are the same breed. But they are not the same dog, because they have owners with different intentions."

MajMeadowMorgans
Jan. 14, 2009, 02:21 PM
If my dog were subject to this trype of BS, I'd be living somewhere else in a heartbeat! Ignorrance is bliss for whom? The pit? The people who love them? And care for them and make the useful members in society?
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/christyj/Dogs/DSCF0104.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/christyj/Dogs/DSCF0298.jpg

She comes very high on my list of priorities!

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=209751264&albumID=1148030&imageID=21686257

Your girl looks like my new boy! Not the best pic, but all I can get right now. He belonged to a " friend" and has been passed around for a couple of months (through no fault of his own) He is so unbelievably skinny, looks nothing like the dog I knew several months ago. Long story short we took him home last night. He is already settling in and snoozing on the couch when I let this morning. Somehow I think my Keisha-dog had a little to do with this...:D

Cherry
Jan. 14, 2009, 03:32 PM
Isn't the actuality that Black labs are the culprits in more dog bites a year than ANY other breed???
It depends on what "study" you buy into and in which area of the U.S. you live! I've heard that German Shephards are #1 on a recent poll, followed by the Chow....

The comment about "Cocker Spaniels".... My vet said a few years ago that Cockers were getting put on that list. We have tons of puppy mills around here and he said that his practice was seeing an increase in the amount of mean Cockers he and his associates were seeing.... :( Not to mention that children love pulling on those long ears! I would never leave a child alone with a Cocker--not because Cockers are inherently mean but that children just don't know when to stop!!!! :eek: I had a friend with a child who was persistent and our Cocker would just turn and move away from the kid who kept after him--that's when I stepped in and rescued our dog.... :mad: Where was the parent?

The bill is just the sign of a lazy person--nothing more, nothing less. Doesn't this woman watch Animal Planet??? Even the SPCAs won't euthanize every single Pit Bull that comes their way--they test them for socialization before they deem them unsalvageable.... It's much easier to kill them all than to sort them out though! :uhoh:

vacation1
Jan. 14, 2009, 05:31 PM
Two comments and then I'll go away and let everyone get on with the mutual affirmation.

1) There are distinct breeds of dog which have different innate tendencies - sighthounds run, collies herd, poodles do whatever it is poodles do. Any large breed dog which was created to be physically and mentally ready to tackle large prey like another dog it's own size, a bull or a human is inherently more dangerous than a dog developed to trail rabbits or flush waterfowl. Breed-specific legislation is a fair approach to dog attacks; it just isn't convenient to people who own those breeds. The unfair approach is one that lumps all dogs together as potentially deadly. All dogs have teeth and can bite; not all dogs will bite, and of those who will, not all bite the same. Which takes me to...

2) Cockers and Labradors may bite a lot, but they also quit readily when presented with opposition - hit a lab in the head with your fist and he will let go of your arm, your dog's ear, etc. Pit bulls and similar breeds do not quit; they hang on, grind down, and do horrific damage quite rapidly. Comparing a Cocker Spaniel to a pit bull is like comparing a bike to a truck - sure, people have been killed by being hit by a bicycle. But does that mean you should have to get a trucker's license before you ride your Schwinn?

KateandKc
Jan. 14, 2009, 05:49 PM
Two comments and then I'll go away and let everyone get on with the mutual affirmation.

2) Cockers and Labradors may bite a lot, but they also quit readily when presented with opposition - hit a lab in the head with your fist and he will let go of your arm, your dog's ear, etc. Pit bulls and similar breeds do not quit; they hang on, grind down, and do horrific damage quite rapidly. Comparing a Cocker Spaniel to a pit bull is like comparing a bike to a truck - sure, people have been killed by being hit by a bicycle. But does that mean you should have to get a trucker's license before you ride your Schwinn?


I disagree about labs backing down. I was attacked by a chocolate lab at the barn I board at. I kicked/hit that dog until I knocked out a tooth and he finally went away bleeding. Fortunately for me, I had on a thick coat, sweater, and gloves. All of which are now shredded...only a few scratches on my skin. Had I been wearing just a sweatshirt, it would have been a blood bath.

All the while, my boxer was hiding behind my leg shaking. :(

Do I think all labs should be banned? Nope, just that one.

birdsong
Jan. 14, 2009, 06:10 PM
Wasn't it in China or someplace not long ago where the government destroyed families pet dogs? Was it something to do with the Olympics...I just have a vague memory of the story of them grabbing someone's maltese type dog

Is this where we are headed? Hmmmhow long before we can only have one child.

She is really nuts.

equinelaw
Jan. 14, 2009, 06:50 PM
Two comments and then I'll go away and let everyone get on with the mutual affirmation.

1) There are distinct breeds of dog which have different innate tendencies - sighthounds run, collies herd, poodles do whatever it is poodles do. Any large breed dog which was created to be physically and mentally ready to tackle large prey like another dog it's own size, a bull or a human is inherently more dangerous than a dog developed to trail rabbits or flush waterfowl. Breed-specific legislation is a fair approach to dog attacks; it just isn't convenient to people who own those breeds. The unfair approach is one that lumps all dogs together as potentially deadly. All dogs have teeth and can bite; not all dogs will bite, and of those who will, not all bite the same. Which takes me to...

2) Cockers and Labradors may bite a lot, but they also quit readily when presented with opposition - hit a lab in the head with your fist and he will let go of your arm, your dog's ear, etc. Pit bulls and similar breeds do not quit; they hang on, grind down, and do horrific damage quite rapidly. Comparing a Cocker Spaniel to a pit bull is like comparing a bike to a truck - sure, people have been killed by being hit by a bicycle. But does that mean you should have to get a trucker's license before you ride your Schwinn?

Except that's not how the stats break down and most people have no idea what dogs were bred for. Then they breed them for some other trait like a big head or a pretty color.

Sight hounds were bred to chase game AND pull it down. Bear baiting too. How is that different from a Pit? Look at old sporting art. Those dogs are not racing.

Huskeys were bred to pull sleds, but they bite pretty often.

Chows, Lasas, Mastiffs were all bred to be guard dogs. Have you ever tried to pull a Chow or Lasa off your arm? I have seen Lasas responsible for 60 stitches. I had a drugged, muzzled Chow hang onto my right hand until 3 Vet techs got it off me.

All terriers were bred to kill. Therefore, the most terrifying dog on Earth should be the Airedale. The are HUGE compared to a Pit Bull. They were bred to kill bears.

Both Cockers and Springers have a mutation that causes "rage syndrome". Try stopping one of those crazy dogs when they flip on you. They may not rip out your throat, but they will rip off you face.

I personally can not attest to the power and horror of a Pit Bull bite. Although I have handled thousands of dogs and been bitten by dozens of them, I have never seen a Pit bite or try and bite a human. I imagine it would feel pretty much like any other set of teeth buried in your flesh and jaws crunching your bones. I have seem them bite each other and other dogs. I did not see any difference in ending the attacks.

The only dog I have seen who could not be stopped and was not psycho was a Blue Heeler. Also a type of bull dog. Bullets didn't stop that dog.

Comparing a dog that bites me to a dog that doesn't even want to is all I can do. Even a miniature poodle hurts like hell when it really bites.

Large dogs in packs will kill. They should not be roaming free. That is the problem, not the breed.

Bluey
Jan. 14, 2009, 06:55 PM
These bans are happening every place.
Our dog club gets these notices all the time.
Here is what is going on right now in TX:

----- Original Message -----
From: Responsible Pet Owners Alliance
To: TX-RPOA@LISTSERV.TAMU.EDU
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 12:51 PM
Subject: Texas cities want BSL


TX-RPOA E-News
From RPOA Texas Outreach and
Responsible Pet Owners Alliance
"Animal welfare, not animal 'rights'
and, yes, there is a difference."
Permission granted to crosspost.


January 11, 2009
Please contact your state legislators and tell them you OPPOSE breed
specific legislation in Texas. Texas passed one of the strictest dangerous
dog laws in the country last legislative session which covers all dog
breeds. No breed is inherently vicious.
Go to the url below and politely comment on this article in the Dallas
Morning News.
____________________________________

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/011109dnmetbreedbans.318f76c.html
OR
http://tinyurl.com/94zr59

Cities want ability to regulate dog breeds, but need state support
Saturday, January 10, 2009

By ELIZABETH LANGTON / The Dallas Morning News
elangton@dallasnews.com

Laura Dapkus worries that someday soon authorities could come to her Grayson
County home and confiscate her four dogs simply because of their DNA.

Dapkus rescued the animals, three of them likely purebred pit bulls and the
fourth a pit bull mix, from a shelter. She calls them playful, loveable,
family dogs.

"Thousands and thousands of them are out there not causing any problems,"
she said.

But pit bulls have gained a reputation for violence, and several North Texas
cities want the power to regulate and possibly ban them and other reputably
violent breeds.

Mary Maza of Duncanville supports such legislation. Last summer, two pit
bulls escaped their yard, broke through her son's fence and critically
injured his dog.

"What if that was a little kid?" she asked Duncanville City Council members,
who minutes later voted to support breed-specific legislation.

Cedar Hill, Frisco, Mesquite and others have also expressed interest, but so
far no legislator has stepped forward to champion a change during the
Legislature's 2009 session, which begins Tuesday.

Just before leaving office, former Rep. Tony Goolsby, R-Dallas, asked
Attorney General Greg Abbott in November to consider whether cities already
have the authority to enact such bans.

Goolsby's letter says that state law as written may allow cities to adopt
breed-specific regulations for dogs that have not already been designated as
dangerous. Abbott's ruling should come within the next few months.

Already, Texas law on dangerous dogs, adopted in 2007, is considered one of
the toughest in the country. Dog owners can be held criminally liable if
their pets leave their property and attack a person.

Madisonville, near Huntsville, last year passed the first known dog ban in
Texas. But the city later repealed the law.

Houston and Harris County have pursued such laws in prior legislative
sessions, but those efforts failed. Some cities nationally have passed
ordinances banning specific dog breeds, most notably Denver, which outlaws
pit bulls.

No North Texas city has publicly advocated for outright bans of pit bulls or
other breeds such as Rottweilers, chow chows and German shepherds. But
leaders have pondered stricter regulations for those animals, such as
mandatory microchipping, liability insurance requirements and taller fence
standards.

Frisco Mayor Maher Maso said cities should be left to make those choices.

"We do feel strongly about local control and leaving it up to communities to
make that decision," he said.

In McKinney, officials have not expressed an opinion on whether they would
support the right to ban certain breeds. Last week, an off-duty police
officer shot and killed a pit bull in a McKinney neighborhood after it
approached his wife on a street. Police are investigating the incident.

Duncanville Mayor David Green said his city would hold community meetings
before adopting any changes.

Dapkus, a member of the Lone Star State Pit Bull Club, said cities should
rely on existing laws to combat problems with dangerous dogs. She said
breed-specific laws fail to address the true cause - irresponsible owners.

"We have a very strong dangerous dog law in this state," she said. "Passing
a ban on pit bulls or on German shepherds is not going to stop that
dangerous mixed breed dog from biting."

RPOA Texas Outreach (501 C4)
Responsible Pet Owners Alliance (501 C3)
900 NE Loop 410 #311-D
San Antonio, TX 78209
Website: www.responsiblepetowners.org

equinelaw
Jan. 14, 2009, 07:11 PM
After the kennel closed to visitors that afternoon, one last dog was led in and put in the empty kennel directly across from us. He was a medium sized muscular dog with a short shiny coat and the biggest grin I’d ever seen on his huge round head. He was wagging his tail at everyone and constantly trying to kiss the woman as she led him to his new home.
“Hi!” He yapped at everyone. “Hi there! Oh hi hi! I sure am happy to be here and meet you all! Is this the boarding kennel? How long are you staying? And you? I’m not sure about me but my owners usually leave me for a week or two when they go away. I LOVE the kennel and meeting so many new friends!”
Learned and I just stared at him. The other dogs stopped their conversations and just stood dumbfounded at how damn happy and friendly this new dog was. Boarding kennel? Didn’t he know where he was?
“When’s dinner?” He asked in our general direction. “Did I miss dinner? I just LOVE dinner! Did I miss play time? I LOVE playtime too! Play play play, Oh my I could just play all day!”

“Dinner hasn’t started yet so you didn’t miss anything. We don’t get play time here, just a few minutes in the yard in the morning.” I informed him.
Boomer just wagged his tail and said he’d be just as happy to hang out with his new friends and chat as play anyway. “I just LOVE chatting! My oh my how I LOVE to chat and make new friends!”

After dinner Boomer spent an hour talking to the Boarder Collie in the next run and I turned to Learned for more education.
“Well, “ I said “Boomer will certainly find a new home! That’s the happiest, cutest dog I’ve ever seen. I’m worried someone will take him instead of me, but I need to wait for Joey anyway.”
“Boomer’s never leaving here. He’ll be gone to a better place by sunset tomorrow.” Learned said sadly.
“But why?!” I asked with shock.
“Boomers a Pit bull and they’re illegal in Bathbridge County.” He told me without emotion.
“What? Boomer’s wrong? How could anyone want to hurt Boomer? He’s the friendliest dog in the world!” Boomer was illegal but killing all those other dogs wasn’t. Nothing made any sense anymore.
“It’s a breed specific ban. If some dogs belong to bad people somewhere and those dogs hurt a human then other counties sometimes decide to ban the whole breed, regardless of how sweet any individual is. When that happens the dog’s owners must either move, or give up the dog. The ban in Bathbridge has been around for awhile, so I guess Boomer’s owners moved here and just didn’t know. Its sad, but what can they do? Move back where they came from? Even the companies that insure humans' houses won’t insure a house with a Pit Bull in it. So no, Boomer won’t be leaving here with a new family. Even the woman is scared of Pit Bulls, so this is an emergency and the man will come soon to put Boomer down.” Learned was so jaded he just recited the facts without anger. He’d been here a long time.
I looked at Boomer’s loving face and generous smile and almost cried. He was wrong and would have to die. His poor family must have been crushed to move to a new town and be welcomed by the dog warden to take their dog away.


A few minutes later the woman came into the kennel with a leash and some dog treats. She went straight to Boomer’s run acting like he was a vicious dog that needed to be coaxed into cooperation and lured him out with the kibbles, down the wretched isle, and through the double doors. Boomer went willingly, wagging his tail the whole time and saying “Treats! Oh my yes I LOVE treats! Where we going? We gonna play? Oh my oh my I LOVE to play!” The last we saw of him was his wagging tail as the doors swung shut.
Less than 10 minutes went by before the lights went out for the night and we heard the woman leave. Boomer was gone. Such a wrong and illegal dog didn’t even deserve one night once he entered our world. Even though I was a well bred, well raised young bitch, for just a moment I wished Boomer had been dangerous and fought back before they killed him. At least he might have had a chance that way. But no, he trustingly and lovingly followed the woman to his doom wagging his tail the whole time and thinking it was all one big game.

Blinkers On
Jan. 14, 2009, 09:41 PM
http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=209751264&albumID=1148030&imageID=21686257

Your girl looks like my new boy! Not the best pic, but all I can get right now. He belonged to a " friend" and has been passed around for a couple of months (through no fault of his own) He is so unbelievably skinny, looks nothing like the dog I knew several months ago. Long story short we took him home last night. He is already settling in and snoozing on the couch when I let this morning. Somehow I think my Keisha-dog had a little to do with this...:D

OMG!!! Brindle is something I am so in love with!!! I hope he brings you as much joy as my little girl does!

Blinkers On
Jan. 14, 2009, 09:50 PM
Oh equinelaw, What a sad and all too true story. It made me cry. It's the saddest part of all of this. It's so wrong. So defeating.

equinelaw
Jan. 14, 2009, 09:59 PM
It makes me cry too which is stupid because I made it up and know Boomer is fiction, but I still feel so sorry for him:cry:

I posted the whole story on my blog. Its like Black Beauty but a dog. And with real citations.

Blinkers On
Jan. 14, 2009, 10:08 PM
It might be fictitious, but it's so real for so many pits. And that's the sad part.
I'd read a blog like that with Kleenex in hand! I love/hate real.

Meredith Clark
Jan. 14, 2009, 10:10 PM
Rep. Driscoll,

I am writing to express my discontent in bill H.B. 191. As the owner of a pit-bull mix I believe strongly that the breed is being grossly misrepresented and more research should be conducted before such extreme legislation is passed. As a college student who lives alone my pit-bull mix provides me with companionship and comfort. She is not trained or encouraged to be any type of guard dog, and has never acted aggressively toward any person, or animal. She lives in harmony with my cat, guinea pig, and also enjoys the company of horses. I am completely in favor of individual persons taking responsibility for their pets but I believe that this bill is a step in the wrong direction.

Thank you for your time,
Meredith Clark

----------------------

I think I would honestly move out of the state I live in if they passed a bill like that.

winegum
Jan. 14, 2009, 10:20 PM
that's so sad. what a jerk.

I don't own a pitbull and never have, and since I don't see them as my type of dog I probably never will, but I have see people with them and played with the dogs and I like them. only bad owners make bad dogs.

Blinkers On
Jan. 14, 2009, 10:37 PM
It's a good read, e-law. The animals need so many more of you!

vacation1
Jan. 15, 2009, 12:04 AM
Yes, not all pit bulls are from 'fighting' kennels or would make 'good' so-called 'fighting' dogs. My collie mix doesn't come from trial lines, and she wouldn't really know what to do with sheep. But she has the instinct; it's still there, strong enough to make her 'herd' people, 'eye' things, sweep around in big gathering circles, etc. All totally different from the terrier she lives with, who loves to 'go to ground' under couches and 'kill' plastic objects with snarling shakes of his head. It's not as if you nullify the drives in a few generations - you blunt them, sure, you remove the 'edge.' But they still exist, and they still differentiate one sort of dog from another.


Sight hounds were bred to chase game AND pull it down. Bear baiting too. How is that different from a Pit? Look at old sporting art. Those dogs are not racing. Huskeys were bred to pull sleds, but they bite pretty often. Chows, Lasas, Mastiffs were all bred to be guard dogs.

Of course other breeds were used to kill. But there is a difference, and it's a big one, between the way the predatory drive was enhanced in most breeds, and the way it was enhanced in the so-called 'fighting' breeds. The basic chase-slash-pile-on method of the greyhound and the snap/shake of the terriers is deadly to small animals, but much more survivable for large animals like humans and other dogs. Pit bulls and their assorted kin grab and hold on, grinding down in a way that can cause mutilation and death even to larger animals.


All terriers were bred to kill. Therefore, the most terrifying dog on Earth should be the Airedale. The are HUGE compared to a Pit Bull. They were bred to kill bears.

Yes, and if they become popular enough that when I go to my local shelter 95% of the dogs there are Airedales, and if they ever start attracting legions of idiot, irresponsible owners, they would be terrifying. At the moment, though, their popularity is reflected by the fact I've only seen a couple, ever, outside a dog show. And those were both wearing plaid jackets and were on leashes.


Both Cockers and Springers have a mutation that causes "rage syndrome". Try stopping one of those crazy dogs when they flip on you. They may not rip out your throat, but they will rip off you face.

The problem with this argument is that it's atypical for a Cocker or Springer to reach a state of aggressive arousal in which they attack something in a sustained way. It's not atypical for the pit bull - it's part of their standard, it's what they were created to do.


I have seem them bite each other and other dogs. I did not see any difference in ending the attacks.

I find that impossible to believe unless the bites were not part of serious attacks, or the attacks were broken up by people accustomed to handling pit bulls.

equinelaw
Jan. 15, 2009, 12:35 AM
Hmmm. Is yelling STOP IT YOU STUPID DOGS! part of a special training skill? Of course that would confuse them since one was named Stupid and the other named Dammit. They were already adults when I got them. I did not make them "better then most". Maybe the man who gave them away did.

I assume you mean atypical as being rare? 95% of the hundreds of Cockers I have groomed over the years will try and bite me if not specially handled. 0% of the Pits I have bathed or boarded have tried to bite me. So which is typical? They are all random dogs. I don't breed them or train them or sort them out in any way. They come in that way.

In fact, I have only seen one Pit that was even aggressive to other dogs. He was still a puppy and it was something innate in hm, but he still stopped when asked.

My neighbors Pit who is now an adult and is not fixed will turn around and run if I just point at him to "go home". I have never touched this dog and don't know his name. He will do as I ask from as far away as I can see him. He has never attacked my dog, any visiting dogs or any other neighbors loose dogs.

There is, however, a HUGE GPD or Anatolian Shepard standing in my driveway barking for absolutely no reason. There are not even any animals out there. My driveway is 1/8 mile long. Why isn't he protecting a goat somewhere??? Why is he barking at my quiet house? I think he is either nuts or just a jerk. Those traits can cross all breed barriers.

My Pits wore plaid jackets and were kept on leashes. Sometimes they wore green sweaters. Do you suppose that's why they were special and acted like every other dog I have known?

I did have other people's dogs jump my 2 more then once and it was always my dogs who were called back--not the aggressors.

More then half of all dog attacks are from mixed breed unknown dogs. CDC numbers. That means a mixed breed is statistically much more dangerous then a Pit Bull? Do people run screaming from mutts?

Absolutely positively all dogs should be kept under control. That's the owners job. There are no "safe" breeds which are free from having to be trained and controlled.

I do think people who have Pits that are not trained and are not up to the job of controlling them often are stupid enough to have more then 1. 2-3 or more out of control dogs are always trouble if not supervised and under control.

Dammit's head was cut off and sent for a research study that showed there is no difference between a Pits jaw and other dogs. She was just like a Boxer--America's new favorite dog.

Now Boxer's are nuts. I predict they will be the next popular to be scared of breed. GSD> Dobes>Pits>Boxers. . . . .

msrobin
Jan. 15, 2009, 12:48 AM
I just bet that this animal hating winch is friends with the other animal hating winch Sarah Palin.

That type of ignorance is terrible, pit bulls are not a problem it is the owners and the same goes with any breed. If you train any animal to be a fighter or aggressive they will be including a tiny little chihuahua. For this fool to want to round them up to kill them is going to cause a major out roar in that state. People will not give up their family members because some idiot thinks they should.
Get that crazy nut out of office before the guys in the white coats come pick her up.

UGHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IDIOTS

LuvMyNSH
Jan. 15, 2009, 12:51 AM
It's not as if you nullify the drives in a few generations - you blunt them, sure, you remove the 'edge.' But they still exist, and they still differentiate one sort of dog from another.


You're right - you don't wipe away a hundred years of breeding in a few generations. Which is why despite the recent trend of idiot thugs breeding dogs that are human aggressive, most pits are not - they reflect their history - bred to be dog aggressive but never human aggressive. Human-aggressive dogs were culled. Sometimes on the spot. They were too dangerous, considering that the handlers were frequently in the pit with the fighting dogs.

Pits are one of the breeds I never worry about coming into the salon. I have never had one display any aggression towards me, even when highly stressed out.

My worst bites have been labs and St. Bernards. Worst attacks on my horses have been heelers, border collies and labs. Which shows that any breed can go awry in the hands of BYBs and millers.


"My kids are around pit bulls every day. In the '70s they blamed Dobermans, in the '80s they blamed German shepherds, in the '90s they blamed the Rottweiler. Now they blame the pit bull."

- Cesar Millan

Maybe in another 20 years they'll be blaming the airdales. :cool:

JSwan
Jan. 15, 2009, 07:27 AM
I don't see packs of basset hounds taking down little old ladies in the street. We had a horrible mauling death here a few years ago.

While it is the owner that is responsible, this is not relevant to the person who is attacked by pit bulls.

Maybe one of these days this breed will have its aggressive tendencies bred out of them. I've seen plenty of nice pit bulls that seemed to be good pets, but their owners were also nice and responsible people.

I oppose BSL, but please don't try and sell me on the "poor misunderstood pit bull" crap. I understand what this breed is capable of and it's disingenuous to assert that they are no different than an Airedale or Cocker Spaniel.

If they have teeth, they'll bite. That's the rule. Depending on the breed and circumstances, that bite will require a band-aid, a stern NO, a trip to the ER, or a one way trip to the morgue. That applies to all dogs.

The legislator that patroned this Bill is merely responding to her constituent who was attacked by a pit bull - THAT DUG OUT OF ITS YARD to attack him and his dog.

It's not a good Bill and it will be withdrawn or fail. But the legislator isn't an idiot or stupid. She's doing her job. If you're a resident of that state and you oppose the Bill, just oppose it and come up with articulate arguments against BSL. There are plenty of good arguments against BSL.

Don't try and paint the breed as angelic and misunderstood because no one is going to believe you.

Bluey
Jan. 15, 2009, 07:44 AM
---"Don't try and paint the breed as angelic and misunderstood because no one is going to believe you."---

People that don't want to believe that dogs can do harm, some very serious harm, because the one at their feet is sweet and nice and is not put in a situation to do harm, need to realize that dogs CAN and DO harm and some more apt to than others.

To ban dogs or any one breed because of that is like banning driving because some drive drunk.

We need to keep car keys out of the drunk's hands.
We need to make people be responsible for their dogs, whatever kind they are.
Then we need to keep dogs out of the hands of those that have shown to cause harm thru their ownership of dogs, not ban dogs or any one breed of dog.

JSwan
Jan. 15, 2009, 08:09 AM
We need to make people be responsible for their dogs, whatever kind they are.
Then we need to keep dogs out of the hands of those that have shown to cause harm thru their ownership of dogs, not ban dogs or any one breed of dog.


Agreed. A close cousin to BSL is "dangerous dog" registries. If your dog chases a cat or squirrel, it's a "dangerous dog" and you have to register it, keep it muzzled, have to have special insurance.....

Some of these laws are downright ridiculous. In the end, what they end up doing is making dog ownership difficult or impossible. Restrictions, bans, registries, mandatory this or that, taxes, fees, licenses......

Which brings us to a whole 'nuther subject.

Jumphigh83
Jan. 15, 2009, 09:09 AM
Ooops my bad for making a political commentary on a political (legislation) thread. So sorry.
I guess my two goldens would qualify for "dangerous dog" status since they love to "squirrel"(to them it is a verb...) at any given time! Good sport for them and since dogs are by nature prey animals, knocking that prey drive out of them makes them cease being dogs. Now the polis are branching out to playing god...(no real surprise there either)...:winkgrin:

kcgold
Jan. 15, 2009, 09:21 AM
I oppose BSL, but please don't try and sell me on the "poor misunderstood pit bull" crap. I understand what this breed is capable of and it's disingenuous to assert that they are no different than an Airedale or Cocker Spaniel.



and exactly which "breed" are you referring to? Staffies? Am Staffs? Bulldogs? (hard to believe, but they are actually listed in that bill, too). How about Boston Terriers - they originated from English bulldogs and terrier crosses. What about bull terriers? Under this bill, "Rufus", the colored bull terrier who was Best in Show at Westminster Kennel Club three years ago, would probably be euthanized if he lived in Montana.
That's one of the major problems with bills like this....the lack of definition. And no mention of exactly who would be in charge of determining "what is a pit bull"...I can just imagine what brilliant set of people they'd come up with to figure out that question.

circusponydreams
Jan. 15, 2009, 11:13 AM
Everyone that comes to my house wants to take "that white dog" home, meaning my pit bull. Many have a hard time believing she is a pit because she is sooooooo sweet.

A friend of mine gets similar comments about her lovely, well-trained agility pit bull, too. Here (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3283/2787771126_effe6e2832.jpg?v=0) he is with my little mutt.

You can see he is really vicious. (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3155/2787771396_c1f328df0f.jpg?v=0)

I think the article posted earlier really gets to the gist of it - if pit bulls are outlawed, idiots will find another dog breed that they think makes them look tough. I am all for fining bad dog owners stiffly, rather than misguidedly trying to legislate against a single breed.

Blinkers On
Jan. 15, 2009, 11:24 AM
Yes, not all pit bulls are from 'fighting' kennels or would make 'good' so-called 'fighting' dogs. My collie mix doesn't come from trial lines, and she wouldn't really know what to do with sheep. But she has the instinct; it's still there, strong enough to make her 'herd' people, 'eye' things, sweep around in big gathering circles, etc. All totally different from the terrier she lives with, who loves to 'go to ground' under couches and 'kill' plastic objects with snarling shakes of his head. It's not as if you nullify the drives in a few generations - you blunt them, sure, you remove the 'edge.' But they still exist, and they still differentiate one sort of dog from another.



Of course other breeds were used to kill. But there is a difference, and it's a big one, between the way the predatory drive was enhanced in most breeds, and the way it was enhanced in the so-called 'fighting' breeds. The basic chase-slash-pile-on method of the greyhound and the snap/shake of the terriers is deadly to small animals, but much more survivable for large animals like humans and other dogs. Pit bulls and their assorted kin grab and hold on, grinding down in a way that can cause mutilation and death even to larger animals.



Yes, and if they become popular enough that when I go to my local shelter 95% of the dogs there are Airedales, and if they ever start attracting legions of idiot, irresponsible owners, they would be terrifying. At the moment, though, their popularity is reflected by the fact I've only seen a couple, ever, outside a dog show. And those were both wearing plaid jackets and were on leashes.



The problem with this argument is that it's atypical for a Cocker or Springer to reach a state of aggressive arousal in which they attack something in a sustained way. It's not atypical for the pit bull - it's part of their standard, it's what they were created to do.



I find that impossible to believe unless the bites were not part of serious attacks, or the attacks were broken up by people accustomed to handling pit bulls.

Please tell me that you are not in some way in favor of this bill.

tkhawk
Jan. 15, 2009, 11:30 AM
From what I gather-it looks like existing pit bulls will be grandfathered in. While I am not a fan of govt getting into everyone's business. But arguing that a pit bull is the same as any other breed will not help . They can and have killed. I think I mentioned in the previous thread on pits, in an area I used to hike, they went after two different horses-one ridden by a 70 yr old woman and clamped on and took chunks of flesh from the horse. They did leave the rider alone in both cases. They have killed/severely injured kids and even some old folks.

If you can agree on the potential of damage a pit can cause, then others would not get this much hysteria. But if one keeps insisting that they are the same as any breed -cocker spaniels or chihuahas-people are going to get riled up. Where I used to board north of Los Angeles, a year or two before I moved there a tiger got loose and stayed loose for a couple of weeks. That is scary-there is not much a horse can do against a tiger -they weigh more than a mini or even a small pony. Now if it was just a bobcat-who cares-it has sharp teeth and claws and can attack too-I have seen several -they don't bother me or the horses in the least.

Same thing with pits-they may be nice-but when they do fly off the handle-the damage they can cause is horrible. One must respect and acknowledge that. While I am not a supporter of this bill-but these dogs just have the capacity to do more damage and have gone after horses . My mustang-he is more a stand and fight guy and will kick the crap out of an attacking dog-another mustang in my old ranch-caught a neighbour's dog and flipped him. The dog barely made it out alive-but a pack and there is not much even the most aggressive horse can do.

Blinkers On
Jan. 15, 2009, 11:37 AM
---"Don't try and paint the breed as angelic and misunderstood because no one is going to believe you."---

People that don't want to believe that dogs can do harm, some very serious harm, because the one at their feet is sweet and nice and is not put in a situation to do harm, need to realize that dogs CAN and DO harm and some more apt to than others.

To ban dogs or any one breed because of that is like banning driving because some drive drunk.

We need to keep car keys out of the drunk's hands.
We need to make people be responsible for their dogs, whatever kind they are.
Then we need to keep dogs out of the hands of those that have shown to cause harm thru their ownership of dogs, not ban dogs or any one breed of dog.

Holy smokes Bluey... we agree??? :)

kcgold
Jan. 15, 2009, 11:38 AM
While I am not a supporter of this bill-but these dogs just have the capacity to do more damage and have gone after horses .

I'm going to ask again....what are "these dogs"? How do you define a pit bull? Am Staffs? Staffordshire Bull Terriers? Bull Terriers? Bostons? Bull mastiffs? Any mix of the aforementioned? And just who will decide what is and isn't a pit bull, if these types of bills become law?

LisaB
Jan. 15, 2009, 11:41 AM
Umm, okay, that makes sense. So, instead of busting the drug dealers and dog fighters, just punish the weakest link.
How about you pick up the list of registered pit bulls, and exempt them? Then when you are busting in that crack house, and there a bunch of mostly pitties, you can immediately euthanize them? Like all the stupid gun laws. It's the criminals carrying them! Not the legal gun owners gang banging!

kcgold
Jan. 15, 2009, 11:41 AM
Take the test....


http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html

Blinkers On
Jan. 15, 2009, 11:44 AM
Agreed. A close cousin to BSL is "dangerous dog" registries. If your dog chases a cat or squirrel, it's a "dangerous dog" and you have to register it, keep it muzzled, have to have special insurance.....

Some of these laws are downright ridiculous. In the end, what they end up doing is making dog ownership difficult or impossible. Restrictions, bans, registries, mandatory this or that, taxes, fees, licenses......

Which brings us to a whole 'nuther subject.

It's not really another story. My older dog once chased a cat. Cornered it, didn't hurt it.. ended up in the pound and had a record as a "violent offender." I had to bail him out. He was impossible to keep in the yard.. my fault. I tried and failed. Now as an old dog. I don't go to dog parks with him. I don't put him in situations where a squirrel or a cat might tempt him. He's never been a "violent offender" since her was 1 1/2. He is 9 now. He is not a pit.

SimpleSimon
Jan. 15, 2009, 11:48 AM
2) Cockers and Labradors may bite a lot, but they also quit readily when presented with opposition - hit a lab in the head with your fist and he will let go of your arm, your dog's ear, etc. ...

Be sure to tell that to the first recipient of a facial transplant...she had her face removed by her pet lab.

seeuatx
Jan. 15, 2009, 11:53 AM
Be sure to tell that to the first recipient of a facial transplant...she had her face removed by her pet lab.

And to one of my best friends from middle school. Her whole left cheek was gone, and her arm mangled when her grand father's lab and border collie ganged up on her. The BC had to be shot to get him off of her. She is lucky to be alive... and yet I have never heard anyone call for the cute doggies from Babe to be banned.

tkhawk
Jan. 15, 2009, 11:59 AM
As I said above-I am not a supporter of this bill and neither of banning any dog. That is a very slippery slope-as someone who enjoys trail riding and coming across groups trying to ban horses from public lands -I will never support banning someonelse's personal stuff.

Well these types of dog-pits, presa canarios etc. Yes it is a huge category. The way I look at it, if you have a dog that has the potential to cause a lot of damage and has the hardware to kill a person or a horse -then you have a higher responsibility. Just as a trail rider and owner of a horse, I realize I have a higher responsibility when I go on trail. In CA the rules are clear-everybody yields to horses, then hikers and bikers are at the bottom. it dosn't work that way. most people I meet on trail don't have a clue of horses. It is my responsibility to take that into account and train my horse expecting the worst. Despite all the rules-if there are enough wrecks and hikers get injured-we as a very small minority will loose our rights-and we will have another legislator introducing bills to ban horses from major parks. So when something goes wrong -you know lot of times , I will blame a rider-if they haven't prepared the horse enough. Horses can be trained to be police horses, parade horses, war horses, to hunt bear and mountain lions-with dogs of course-but that doesn't mean they don't have instinct and can become a danger-you have to acknowledge that.

Same thing with a dog that has the hardware to severely maul and/or kill a horse or an adult. You have to first acknowledge that the dog-if for some reason ever flipped out-has that power, strength , teeth and claws to do some serious damage and handle appropriately. A chhihuaha you can get away with it being a spoilt brat-it can draw blood-but if it grabs to your leg , one kick can send it flying or even break its bones. A dog that is bred to fight-or bait and is big enough to cause serious damgage-accept it and take responsibility-no one will be bothered by it if you take responisibility. Unfortunately for some of these dogs, some owners that are attracted to them are more into showing off the fierceness of the breed-which doesn't help at all.

Jumphigh83
Jan. 15, 2009, 12:06 PM
It is a small jump from "all pitbulls are dangerous" to "all... insert dog/cat/person/religion/behavior..are unlawful" We already have "bad" smokers (I don't smoke) who are not allowed in many areas, "bad" fats (cant cook with trans fats), "bad" sodas (sugar), "bad" cell phone use, "bad" drivers who need to wear seat belts......Pretty sure that in the 1940s there was a country that thought a certain religious group was "bad" and needed to be removed form the population. This is a VERY slippery slope.
All pitbulls are dangerous ..
All jews have beards...
All blacks eat fried chicken...
All Irish are drunks..
Yeah...They ALL sound ridiculous and stereotypical and ignorant. Can we all say GROSS generalizations in unison????
This is a disgrace.

Curb Appeal
Jan. 15, 2009, 12:28 PM
I have worked with a lot of breeds, including pit bulls. I have been bitten 3 times. Two of those biters were Cocker Spaniels, the other was a Chow.

I bet she wouldn't get the same kind of support if she tried this with Cockers.

irishcas
Jan. 15, 2009, 12:43 PM
Another thought, which some one might have mentioned, since I have read all the replies....

I have Boxers, have had them all my life. They were popular when I was little (the 60's) then as I had them in the 70's, 80's and early 90's they were rare. I would have people ask me all the time, what kind of dog is that.

I moved to Queens, NY in 1989, brought my California Boxer with me. People would yank their kids arms out pulling them away from the scary dog. I never ever heard of Boxers attacking anyone. They love kids, people, hate cats and squirrels.

Then in the late 90's I started seeing more and more Boxers in public, and then sadly I started seeing them in the hands of the same groups that like the Pits. Then I started getting them coming up to me and wanting to breed to my dogs.

Then I started hearing about Boxers biting people :(

Killing all Pit Bulls will not solve the problem. Instead more stringent laws on the Aholes who get animals is the key. But it will never happen.

As others have said, remove the Pits or what passes for them, and the jerk offs will find a new breed to corrupt.

This bill sounds more like Germany than America.

I hope everyone bands together to fight it, I will.

Take the fight to those doing it, not the innocents. Even most of Michael Vick's dogs have succesfully been rehomed!

Regards,

equinelaw
Jan. 15, 2009, 01:01 PM
I live in a smallish town, so we don't have many big news stories about attacking dogs.

The only one I can think of locally as when the Aiken Hounds attacked the County head Prosecutor while she was out walking her dogs.

I do admit it was pretty stupid for her to be walking her dogs in the woods on a hunting day, but the pack of hounds were somehow confused that her 3 dogs were a fox?

While trying to defend her dogs from the hounds she did get bit and badly. Of course the hounds were called off before they took her completely down, but she was hospitalized and had to get several dozen stitches to her crotch area.

Next thing we know the Aiken Hounds are kicked out of The Woods, a place where they have been hunting for 100 years. They were suddenly a dangerous pack of killer dogs.

And thus the oldest recognized pack became hunt-homeless and was sanctioned and vilified. The Master had to resign. He had to turn over his hounds and the kennel was closed.

Eventually, the Aiken Hounds went home and everything got back to normal, but since foxhounds are large dogs bred to chase and hunt and kill maybe they should be banned as well? They did quite a bit of damage to the woman and her dogs. . . . . Or should they just be leashed at all times?

tkhawk
Jan. 15, 2009, 01:24 PM
I don't think anyone here is advocating banning dogs. If you do-they will just get another dog. If one thinks pits are bad, then one hasn't seen presa canarios. The owner needs to take responsibility and acknowledge that the dog can cause some damage.

Like a trail rider on a horse. You have to acknowledge that a horse can seriously injure or even kill other trail users-very rare, yes-but they can. If you don't and insist that all users are the same-you will be in trouble. Same with these type of dogs-I mean the ones with sufficient power and hardware to cause mortal wounds-acknowledge that and then you can have some common ground. They can cause damage-serious damage-probably very rarely-but they have the potential-just like a horse.

Jumphigh83
Jan. 15, 2009, 01:53 PM
Not to be contentious but WATER can kill. You can formulate an argument to conclude just about any outcome that you engineer. Many things can cause harm. Cars, cats, horses, dogs, stairs, water, alcohol, cutlery, ladders, pens, rocks, etcetc...I that your point? You simply can NOT legislate common sense and good care. This type of thing can spiral out of control. Looks like it is.

tkhawk
Jan. 15, 2009, 02:13 PM
Well I doubt the legislation would pass and I would never support such a thing. Yes water can kill. But comparing water,pens,a ladder to a pit bull or a scared frightened panicky horse on trail is a stretch. My point is when you have a large dog, that is bred for fighting or baiting or some such-as opposed to say a lap dog or a daschund or even a JRT-it is different. A JRT may have the same drive as the larger ones-but can't cause death and you can defend yourself.

Same thing with a horse-if you don't acknowledge it and take an untrained horse to a park with a lot of people and children with paper bags-then the horse spooks and ploughs through the crowd-well you know that is your fault.
If you had a pet mini and it spooked and ran away-it won't cause the same damage as a full sized large horse.

That is my point-there is potential. When you own an animal with potential to cause serious/mortal damage-the owner needs to take extra responsibility. it may never happen-but one must not forget that that animal has the potential-horse or dog and behave accordingly.

trubandloki
Jan. 15, 2009, 02:17 PM
Way too many good things to quote them all. Well said so many of you.

I help teach dog obedience classes that are based out of the humane society shelter (not associated with HSUS) in my area.

As you can imagine, I see LOTS of pibbles (as I call them). I also see lots of other dog breeds.

One thing I know about Pits. They are not the put on a front type dog. They are not the type of dog that sits there wagging its tail to drag you in to see it and then bites the crap out of you when you get there. Not like so many other breeds, namely the before mentioned cocker spaniels.

I have met a few nasty Pits. Very few considering the number of dogs I have interaction with. I have met more nasty Goldens and Labs than I have pits.

For the record, the shelter does have lots of pits go thru it. We are located very close to a large city that has a very serious pit population. The dog of choice of the inner city thug who wants to be cool.


You're right - you don't wipe away a hundred years of breeding in a few generations. Which is why despite the recent trend of idiot thugs breeding dogs that are human aggressive, most pits are not - they reflect their history - bred to be dog aggressive but never human aggressive. Human-aggressive dogs were culled. Sometimes on the spot. They were too dangerous, considering that the handlers were frequently in the pit with the fighting dogs.


So very very very true. It is amazing to me that the people who scream "but they were bred to attack" forget this tid bit.


Anyway, not being near as eloquent as some of you others I will simply add that I live with three dogs. A greyhound, a Rottie, and a pibble.
Of the three the most likely one to be dangerous to anyone is the greyhound. My pit has gone just about every where with me. She has her canine good citizen, etc. She is not unique, she is what the breed is. A happy, smiling, people dog.
For the record. My three dogs do not always get along. Heck, I do not always get along with my husband either. When they get rough with each other we tell them to stop and guess what, they do.

Darn viscous dog. ;)

danceronice
Jan. 15, 2009, 02:47 PM
I just bet that this animal hating winch is friends with the other animal hating winch Sarah Palin.



:rolleyes: Considering the bill sponsor is a Democrat and Sarah Palin has never advocated BSL, seizure and destruction of private property, or nanny-state regulation of personal behavior, all of which occurs in this woman's bill, I somehow doubt they'd be BFFs. It's not generally Republicans who write these kind of bills as they generally aren't opposed to animal ownership or private property rights. The looney far-left wing of Democratic party, on the other hand, has a lot of people like that, who even now are probably composing hate mail to the Obamas and Bidens about their plans to enslave innocent puppies as house pets. FREE THE LABRADOODLE! Oh, and hey, didn't the Bidens get a GSD puppy? BITING BREED! Have they no concern for their neighbors? Someone think of the children!

And this is ridiculous. If I were a constituent I would write her (I'm not so my opinion isn't worth a plugged nickle) and inform her the most viscious dogs I've ever seen were a couple of packed-up lab mixes trying to rip apart a deer (did you know deer scream?). The only time I've been bitten was a weimeraner and it was my own fault (and my mother told me so, too, and apologized to the owner.)

kcgold
Jan. 15, 2009, 02:58 PM
The animal welfare society I work with has a lovely pitbull in our care right now...I was there at lunch, playing with dogs and when I went to rearrange some of her bedding, I accidentally poked her hard in her eye. Guess what she did...jumped up on me, and gave me kisses, while squinting out of one eye, poor girl :) Meanwhile, the little lab next to her snapped at my hand when I attempted to put a lead on her...neither of these events surprised me, though. The poster who said there that pits don't put on a front, was right on....

JSwan
Jan. 15, 2009, 03:04 PM
No reason to belabor the point, we all agree that BSL is a bad idea. For many reasons.

To contact a legislator and call her an animal hater is just not going to make her withdraw the Bill. I suggest people be smart and educate themselves before making assumptions.

In a prior post, when I wrote that fees and licenses and laws brings us to a whole 'nuther subject, it's this.

Essentially what all these laws and fees and registries and licenses do is make it difficult for anyone to keep an animal except a certain type of person. And that type of person makes sure none of the laws apply to HIS dogs. Just everyone else's.

While it's true that the "big black dog" is more likely to give you a nasty bite, it's also true that cute widdle cocker spaniels bite more often.

You don't see legislation banning cocker spaniels. You also don't see headlines with gory pictures of little old ladies mauled to death by cocker spaniels.

The media and special interest groups create the perception and reinforce it until it is confused with reality. Like someone else wrote - in prior decades it was the German Shepherd, or the Doberman or other breeds that were targeted.

Now it's pitbulls. Unlike other breeds though - this one IS CURRENTLY bred specifically for dog fighting and is a popular breed among criminals. That's a legitimate concern. Not a reason to ban them, but still a legitimate concern.

We all have heard of or know nice pit bulls. We probably have met some evil natured Labs. Look around at the nice suburban soccer mom with 2.5 kids and a minivan and she does not have a pitbull in the front seat. She's got a Labrador and knows her legislator's office number.

Making it difficult or extraordinarily expensive to own an animal is one way to make sure only "the right" kind of people get to have that privilege.

Banning the breeds that appear to be more prevalent among lower classes is a safe way to ensure that the laws you want passed don't apply to you. That's true of a lot of bans and restrictions. The people advocating for them ensure the results are not applied to their particular activity, hobby, what have you.

Things like dangerous dog registries usually end up being the happy medium between an outright ban and no legislation at all. There is nothing "dangerous" about a dog chasing a squirrel. It's no different than a cat catching a mouse. Why is the cat permitted to kill and the dog not permitted to chase - even in its own yard? Exactly when does natural behavior in an animal become a crime?

Horse kicks - breaks the leg of a pasturemate. Dog chases squirrel. Dog chases stray cat that wandered into the yard. Dogs fight at a dog park. Cat gets into catfight. Cat catches guinea pig and eats it. Cat kills a parakeet. Dog kills a parakeet. Dog kills a pet rabbit. Normally friendly dogs get into fight over a dog bone or a passing female.

I'd not call those dangerous animals. I'd call it normal behavior. And yet, at least in the case of dogs, in some states the behavior is criminalized and ownership requirements onerous. You may not be able to purchase insurance. The owner may be forced to get rid of the dog - which is then most likely euthanized.

That's kind of what people want to happen with these registries and bans. Bye bye doggie.






While trying to defend her dogs from the hounds she did get bit and badly. Of course the hounds were called off before they took her completely down, but she was hospitalized and had to get several dozen stitches to her crotch area.


Eventually, the Aiken Hounds went home and everything got back to normal, but since foxhounds are large dogs bred to chase and hunt and kill maybe they should be banned as well? They did quite a bit of damage to the woman and her dogs. . . . . Or should they just be leashed at all times?

Blinkers On
Jan. 15, 2009, 03:10 PM
A friend of mine gets similar comments about her lovely, well-trained agility pit bull, too. Here (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3283/2787771126_effe6e2832.jpg?v=0) he is with my little mutt.

You can see he is really vicious. (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3155/2787771396_c1f328df0f.jpg?v=0)

I think the article posted earlier really gets to the gist of it - if pit bulls are outlawed, idiots will find another dog breed that they think makes them look tough. I am all for fining bad dog owners stiffly, rather than misguidedly trying to legislate against a single breed.


LOL. Yup, a real menace to society....:no:

And Trub... death by licking?

trubandloki
Jan. 15, 2009, 03:17 PM
Here is my killer crowd:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e267/trubandloki/Dogs162a.jpg


And here is my viscous killer pit bull, doing what she does best:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e267/trubandloki/Dogs037.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e267/trubandloki/Dogs042.jpg (ignore the way fugly couch cover please)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e267/trubandloki/lokey6.jpg




And Trub... death by licking?

Yes. Or maybe by the beating you get from the tail while they are licking you all over.

marta
Jan. 15, 2009, 03:21 PM
it's hard for me to be "polite" when addressing someone like her but i did my best.

Cherry
Jan. 15, 2009, 03:23 PM
Well, my Cocker was attacked not once--but twice--by a German Shepherd on our own property! My dog was leashed and the GS was not!!!! :eek: I have to tell you that was a very frightening experience!!!! :eek: The owners called to the GS but he never looked back and was more interested in killing my dog (which he nearly did). The owner of the GS was a Constable (who should have known better even before the first attack, IMHO) and the Constable's brother-in-law was our borough policeman--double wow!!!! :eek: :uhoh:

Unfortunately holding the owner responsible after the first attack can sometimes be too late for the person or animal being attacked! The sad fact is that any animals are generally the ones who pay for their ignorant owners actions. You read about this stuff every day in the headlines--unfortunately, more often than not, it's about pit bulls gone astray.

Perhaps if all animals were neutered before they left for new homes there would be a lot less kittens and puppies roaming the streets and being bred--that would be a start. Spay and neuter! ;)

Holding the dogs owners responsible is a start but it also takes people reporting to the police any aggressive actions inflicted witnessed upon your person (or property) so that there is a record in the future.

This may all be a moot point though. There are many insurance companies that have been denying insurance coverage to people who keep dogs that they deem to be an insurance risk--has anyone experienced this??? Of course, I doubt if the folks in the projects carry insurance....

Blinkers On
Jan. 15, 2009, 03:26 PM
Here is my killer crowd:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e267/trubandloki/Dogs162a.jpg


And here is my viscous killer pit bull, doing what she does best:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e267/trubandloki/Dogs037.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e267/trubandloki/Dogs042.jpg (ignore the way fugly couch cover please)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e267/trubandloki/lokey6.jpg



Yes. Or maybe by the beating you get from the tail while they are licking you all over.


LOL nice. Does the pibble snore loudly as well? Mine certainly does! Makes the glass vibrate!

trubandloki
Jan. 15, 2009, 03:33 PM
LOL nice. Does the pibble snore loudly as well? Mine certainly does! Makes the glass vibrate!

Yes, yes she does.

And the greyhound whimpers and screams while she sleeps. I have no idea what she is dreaming about but some nights between pibble snoring and greyhound screaming it is hard to sleep.



I want to say that I do not believe Pits the right dog for everyone. They do require a responsible owner. One that is willing to take the extra care to see that they do not get blamed for anything, even when it is not their fault.

I had my girl at the barn with me one day (with BO's permission) and I had her tied to my trailer while I was riding. The BO's mother had recently adopted a corgi that was known to be dog aggressive from a rescue (and she was not the type of person who should have such a dog). She showed up at the barn and let her dog out of the car. The corgi found its way over to my sleeping dog (yes, I saw it all). The corgi snapped at my sleeping dog who had opened one eye to see what was there. My dog ended up being bit in the leg, corgi no injuries and guess who was blamed? My dog. I heard for weeks about how she was viscous and had attacked the corgi. :eek: My mistake. I should not have trusted others to control their dogs. And yes, there were other witnesses to the 'fight' than just me. None agree with the other side but none were willing to say 'oh but.....' when the gossip ring was doing their thing.

Blinkers On
Jan. 15, 2009, 03:41 PM
Trub, you've seen these, but... I must... :no:
The ill prepared for cold pitbull. She was not impressed. Though she did not shred the jacket to my shock!
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/christyj/DSCF0409.jpg

vacation mode in the trailer
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/christyj/DSCF0356.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/christyj/DSCF0444.jpg

Post op
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/christyj/Dogs/Mavenpostop2.jpg

More Post op
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/christyj/Dogs/Mavenpostop.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/christyj/Dogs/DSCF0113.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/christyj/Dogs/Christmas07011.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/christyj/Dogs/DSCF0269.jpg

Sorry, boring, but I love my kids. It would be tragic to have her subject to BSL

trubandloki
Jan. 15, 2009, 04:03 PM
That is ok, I had to look at them all again. She is so freaking cute!!!!

yellow-horse
Jan. 15, 2009, 04:21 PM
I had 2 pitbulls, both were old ladies and died in nov, sweetest dogs in the world, one of them was rescued twice from very bad situations, a/c thought she had been used as a bait dog. Anyway, over the years I had them I was very protective of them, I knew if they bit anyone or another animal they would be labeled as bad dogs and being pits, would cost them their lives. I think if you own pitbulls you have to be aware of the bias against them and make sure you obey all the leash laws etc so no one has a reason to come get your dog and kill it.

That being said I would not own a dog that bites, I'd put it down, no one would have to tell me to do that.

I remember growing up we didn't have leash laws, I lived in a city and every kid had a dog, the dogs and kids ran as a pack, the dogs had to be very tolerant and able to handle all kinds of nonsense, if a dog bit a kid, most likely your father would smack you for making the dog bite you. A really vicious dog was not tolerated and put down, I mean you'd be run ff the block if you had a bad dog. My family had dobies, they ran the street and played right along with us. The only dog I recall being put down for not being able to get along in that enviornment was a collie. The dog might have done well in a country home but not where I lived.

Anway, I'm against breed bans, next they'll want to ban people of a certain background, oh wait we already did that.

AiryFairy
Jan. 15, 2009, 05:59 PM
If you train any animal to be a fighter or aggressive they will be including a tiny little chihuahua.

You cannot possibly equate the two. Dog bites and dog maulings are not the same thing. A chihuahua that bites is a damn sight different than a pit bull that bites. I chi will bite and let go, a pit bull will bite you and hold on until he has ripped you to shreds and killed you - that's what they DO, innately. The dogs that attacked my dog MEANT TO KILL. There was no territorial barking or snapping 'leave me alone', it was a stealth attack by a pack - one at the throat, one at the front leg and one at the hind end, the intent was to bring her down and kill her, like prey. Chihuahua's DON'T DO THAT.

The dogs that attacked us were placed via the SPCA. The dog trainer I go to constantly laments the SPCA's inappropriate placement of dogs, pit bulls the most problematic. They are placed with anyone who will take them, they are NOT placed with the most appropriate, responsible owner. Everyone shares the blame, IMO, but the SPCA the most. I would think they'd be a lot more concerned about their liability in the case of vicious dogs. Their only response to the owners was "you can bring them back IF YOU WANT TO, but they will be put to sleep". So guess what, the dogs are still there, still not muzzled when outside, nothing other than a leash law violation in the way of punishment. What if my dog had been on a leash, with a mother pushing a stroller? They ALL would have been toast. And yet, the ACO is unconcerned because they've had 'six years with no problems'.

equinelaw
Jan. 15, 2009, 06:12 PM
I bought my from a woman who had to leave because of the neighbors dogs. They had Chi's, she had a Pom. The Chi's killed the Pom and it broke her heart. So she sold the farm.

You can ban any breed you want. There will still be other breeds for people who want attack dogs.

If I want a killer dog and you ban Pits, I'll get an Airedale, a Bouviar, a Giant Schnauzer, a mixed breed, 3 heelers, a Ridgeback. . the list of dogs that can be trained to kill and are willing to kill is endless.

Any breed might attack another dog and they do not just stop because of their breed. They stop because someone stopped them or they got their asses kicked. The actual DOG FIGHT dogs do to always fight the death. The winner wins and the loser loses, but many dogs go on to fight another day so SOMEBODY is calling them off even during the fights.

Human behavior must be changed--not the flavor of dogs.

Bluey
Jan. 15, 2009, 07:59 PM
I bought my from a woman who had to leave because of the neighbors dogs. They had Chi's, she had a Pom. The Chi's killed the Pom and it broke her heart. So she sold the farm.

You can ban any breed you want. There will still be other breeds for people who want attack dogs.

If I want a killer dog and you ban Pits, I'll get an Airedale, a Bouviar, a Giant Schnauzer, a mixed breed, 3 heelers, a Ridgeback. . the list of dogs that can be trained to kill and are willing to kill is endless.

Any breed might attack another dog and they do not just stop because of their breed. They stop because someone stopped them or they got their asses kicked. The actual DOG FIGHT dogs do to always fight the death. The winner wins and the loser loses, but many dogs go on to fight another day so SOMEBODY is calling them off even during the fights.

Human behavior must be changed--not the flavor of dogs.

Ever heard of fencing your dogs in, the neighbor's out.:confused:

I keep my dog behind a yard fence as, like just a little bit ago, a wild pig was rooting around right in front of it and my dog would have been a quick meal to that pig.
It was just getting too dark for a good, clean shot, so that will have to wait until another day, for now.:(

I wonder why anyone's dog has to be free, free to get in trouble or die.:no:

People really need to fence their dogs in, for their dogs and everyone else's safety.

equinelaw
Jan. 15, 2009, 08:08 PM
Um. . . that story did not involve me or my dogs. Before I bought my farm? Neighbors?

And no, I am not going to spend a fortune fencing other people's dogs out. They don't bother me anyway. They don't bother my animals. They cross my yard on their daily rounds, but besides peeing on stuff I see no reason to plunk down $15K to fence out dogs.

I actually don't mind my neighbors dogs patrolling my property at night. If someone sneaks in and gets attacked its not my fault:) Now I seem to have a GPD protecting my driveway and power pole. He learned not to bark at the light pole last night. Now he just watches my driveway for me and costs me no $$$$.

Bluey
Jan. 15, 2009, 09:29 PM
Um. . . that story did not involve me or my dogs. Before I bought my farm? Neighbors?

And no, I am not going to spend a fortune fencing other people's dogs out. They don't bother me anyway. They don't bother my animals. They cross my yard on their daily rounds, but besides peeing on stuff I see no reason to plunk down $15K to fence out dogs.

I actually don't mind my neighbors dogs patrolling my property at night. If someone sneaks in and gets attacked its not my fault:) Now I seem to have a GPD protecting my driveway and power pole. He learned not to bark at the light pole last night. Now he just watches my driveway for me and costs me no $$$$.

I know, I meant the plural you.
That pesky English language, that leaves some out in translation.;)

equinelaw
Jan. 15, 2009, 09:51 PM
Ahhhh. I assume they mistakenly believed that small tiny dogs were not into killing each other.

You know,why fence a tiny dog in because what harm can they do? Its not like they are Pit Bulls!:eek:

Tiny little vermin dogs ripped that Pom to shreds. Ewwww.

I moved in with a Blue Heeler. Problem solved.

trubandloki
Jan. 16, 2009, 09:02 AM
You cannot possibly equate the two. Dog bites and dog maulings are not the same thing. A chihuahua that bites is a damn sight different than a pit bull that bites. I chi will bite and let go, a pit bull will bite you and hold on until he has ripped you to shreds and killed you - that's what they DO, innately. The dogs that attacked my dog MEANT TO KILL. There was no territorial barking or snapping 'leave me alone', it was a stealth attack by a pack - one at the throat, one at the front leg and one at the hind end, the intent was to bring her down and kill her, like prey. Chihuahua's DON'T DO THAT.



I know you have had a bad experience so you want to paint the whole darn dog world with one big brush.
But please try to get facts.

Many people have posted facts (experiences) that show your thoughts on the biting and not letting go thing to not be factually.

It has also been pointed out that a pack of dogs is very different than A dog.

MajMeadowMorgans
Jan. 16, 2009, 10:57 AM
Had to share a couple more of the Brinle boy and the black and white wonderdog :)

Blue-
http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=209751264&albumID=1148030&imageID=21725950
Bentley, as a pup. Vicious thing isn't he?

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=209751264&albumID=1148030&imageID=16598293

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=209751264&albumID=1148030&imageID=20266899

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=209751264&albumID=1148030&imageID=20315271

Spent last evening smooshed on the couch under these 2 watching t.v. The snoring was enough to wake the dead! ;)

TrotTrotPumpkn
Jan. 16, 2009, 12:08 PM
I just have to repeat myself...I can't help it.

ENFORCE YOUR LEASH LAWS!

No packs of dogs. No dogs coming into your yard and attacking your dog. No dogs attacking me when I'm walking my dogs. etc.

Also, the only dog that ever actually bit me was an American Water Spaniel. I then owned a different AWS (best dog ever) and when she was older, if you weren't me, you better watch out because she snapped, but she was going blind and crippled with arthritis too. But the outcome was the same.

I get that my dobermans can do more damage...for one thing they are both taller, weigh more and have bigger teeth. That's why I take every precaution I can think of and don't leave my dobes in my fenced in back yard unattended (you'd be amazed at how many neighbor kids...who I think should be leashed too...will come over and taunt your dogs and throw things at them and try to poke them through the fence with sticks).

1. Enforce leash laws. 2. Impose severe penalties on those whose dogs attack humans.

Blinkers On
Jan. 16, 2009, 01:36 PM
Great pics!!! Maybe there ought to be BSL to eliminate the Snoring? :lol::lol:

I agree leash laws etc are a very good idea. My dogs did stay in my yard unattended, and they do stay put. BUT I had to put locks on gates after an "escaping" incident where I think the gardeners had failed to close the one gate. Fortunately no incident for dog or human. I have found the most amazing things in the yard since living here including light bulbs... After the light bulb, They stay in the house when I am not home.
I wish I lived in a wide open space where I could cut them both loose and let them run. BUT I live in the wrong place for that. Might need to fix that!

And YES the dogs that do the biting or attacking need to be punished as are the humans on the ownership end. The owner is ultimately responsible for the dog and it's actions!

trubandloki
Jan. 16, 2009, 01:48 PM
MMM those puppy pictures are painfully cute. Look at all those fun rolls and that ever so kissable face.
Darn, it makes me almost think getting a puppy again some time is a good idea and I have vowed to never do the puppy thing again.

Cuteness overload.


I too agree that the answer to this problem is to enforce the leash laws we already have.


It is so frustrating to live by someone who owns a dog (large chocolate lab) who guards everything, including the road in front of his house, but his owner feels the leash law does not apply to them.
I would walk my dogs and this dog would charge us, snarling and carrying on. The owner would call it, it would keep snarling and carrying on.
Thankfully my dog has a good heel and a good leave-it and we walked on by with out an issue (except the times stupid lab got too close to my dog and I kicked at it to leave me alone).
The owner of said dog insisted his dog meant no harm.
I called the dog warden several times - nothing was ever done.
And for the record, this dog did this to any dog or human that walked by. Not just me and my dogs.

I am sure if my pit or rottie had snapped back at the dog it would have some how been their fault, hu?

Bluey
Jan. 16, 2009, 01:59 PM
Great pics!!! Maybe there ought to be BSL to eliminate the Snoring? :lol::lol:

I agree leash laws etc are a very good idea. My dogs did stay in my yard unattended, and they do stay put. BUT I had to put locks on gates after an "escaping" incident where I think the gardeners had failed to close the one gate. Fortunately no incident for dog or human. I have found the most amazing things in the yard since living here including light bulbs... After the light bulb, They stay in the house when I am not home.
I wish I lived in a wide open space where I could cut them both loose and let them run. BUT I live in the wrong place for that. Might need to fix that!

And YES the dogs that do the biting or attacking need to be punished as are the humans on the ownership end. The owner is ultimately responsible for the dog and it's actions!

Our veterinarian many years ago lived in a small town where kids coming from school went right by his 6" solid wood panel fence.
He got an aussie and the dog was delightful, was in one of our 4H club obedience clubs and had a great temperament.

One year this group of kids kept walking by his fence after school and hitting the panels and aggravating the dog into a frenzy.
By the time adults caught on, the dog was getting rather vicious on his fence attacks.
The parents were told to keep their kids off that route, but that didn't set well with them and the kids kept coming around when they thought no one was there.
If that dog had broken thru the fence, those kids may have been toast.:eek:

Eventually the vet had to rehome the dog, before someone got hurt.

Sometimes, it is not the dog's fault after all when one becomes dangerous, but the failings of our society.:(

Samantha37
Jan. 16, 2009, 02:36 PM
I wrote a letter to her also, despite the fact that I live on the east coast.
I'm with those who want leash laws strictly enforced. I have a pit cross (we think) and while he is not the best example of the breed, he is extremely loving and loyal and great with dogs, cats, and horses. He is not always great with people, and so I am careful and don't put him in situations where he might make a bad decision. He is a fun, playful dog who loves to give kisses and snuggle up to those he loves.

In his blanket :)
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r222/ssilver3722/Deuce/Deuceifer.jpg

Snuggling with me:
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r222/ssilver3722/Deuce/Verreaux00018.jpg


Happy dog face:
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r222/ssilver3722/Deuce/S5000385.jpg

MajMeadowMorgans
Jan. 16, 2009, 02:46 PM
[quote=trubandloki;3809517]MMM those puppy pictures are painfully cute. Look at all those fun rolls and that ever so kissable face.
Darn, it makes me almost think getting a puppy again some time is a good idea and I have vowed to never do the puppy thing again.

Cuteness overload.quote]

Thanks :) He was headed to a high kill shelter at 7 wks old and (I, too had vowed never to have a pup again) Well, I couldn't help myself. I figured if nothing else, we'd re-home him. How can you say no to that face? He's half Staffie and half English Bulldog.

I was very anti-Pit/Staffie/whatever until I came in to my current job. I meet upwards of 10 dogs a day, and half of those on a normal day are Pits/Staffs/whatevers. I can honestly say that I would take more of them home than any other breed I meet. The happy, smiley faces, that thwomping tail (even the contented snoring as I try to watch TV :D) . They've won me over.

I never thought I'd own 1 and 1/2 AmStaffs, but I sure am glad I do now!

ETA- I have 3 kids and Blue (the new boy) has decided that since they did not have an appointed guardian (that was Keisha, my Rott's job, before) HE is now their dog. I think he loves them more than me!

Woodland
Jan. 16, 2009, 03:20 PM
Pit bulls are useless POS - I say Good Riddance!

Just Wondering
Jan. 16, 2009, 03:29 PM
Pit bulls are useless POS - I say Good Riddance!

Get real.

A dog or a horse is only as good as the breeding and training.

It's not the whole breed at fault.

arabhorse2
Jan. 16, 2009, 03:29 PM
Pit bulls are useless POS - I say Good Riddance!

Whoa, glad you're not prejudiced against any particular breed there, Woodland.

This is the same sterotypical BS that people sling around about Warmbloods, TBs, Arabians, et al.

Bluey
Jan. 16, 2009, 03:43 PM
Pit bulls are useless POS - I say Good Riddance!

Remember that everyone has the right to like what they want.:)
No one denies you your right not to like some dog breed.:confused:
Why would you deny others what they like and insult their choices?:no:

Rights flow both ways.:yes:
If we let them deny some their rights, we don't have much to stand when they come after ours, as such a society surely will.:eek:

MajMeadowMorgans
Jan. 16, 2009, 03:45 PM
Pit bulls are useless POS - I say Good Riddance!

Wow, I have enjoyed reading your posts before this, but this is entirely uncalled for. Sheesh, enough to warrant an Ignore.

Auventera Two
Jan. 16, 2009, 04:17 PM
Pit bulls are useless POS - I say Good Riddance!

Lest you forget that your fellow humans have raped, tortured and murdered not only other humans but other animals as well. The most despicable acts of cruelty and cold blooded violence are committed by your own kind every single day throughout the entire world. Being that you're a member of this same breed, perhaps the same could be said for you. ;) :rolleyes: :dead: You're free to your opinion, but just make sure it is well educated.

The truth is, many "Pit Bulls" that get publicity for attacking or even killing are not Pit Bulls at all. A lot of people wouldn't know an American Pit Bull Terrier if they saw it. We all have these visions of massive dogs with muscles popping and a spike collar around their neck. Many Pits weigh only 35 to 50 pounds and look like a goofy terrier with floppy ears. American Bulldogs, Presa Canarios, Cane Corsos, the various Mastiffs, etc. ALL get mis-identified as being a "Pit Bull" because people are uneducated.

Small dogs, and family dogs such as labs and retrievers bite just as many people as Pit Bulls but they don't get the media coverage. Powerful breed dogs look scary and the media jumps all over it. Did you know that more innocent people are killed by Influenza every year than dog bites, and murders combined, but what gets the coverage? Do we get dateline coverage or front page news on how influence ruthlessly ripped the life away from a 60 year old grandma with 5 grandchildren and a husband? No. It's not sensational enough. Anything exciting or out of the ordinary gets all the coverage. It's unfortunate because the things that we REALLY need to be scared of - we hardly hear about. I got Influence Type A, 3 days later developed severe pneumonia and for the first time in my life, I thought I might actually die. :eek: Seriously. 104 fever, unable to breathe, unable to get out of bed for a week. It was the most horrible sickness I've ever experienced. THAT was something to truly be afraid of. If I were elderly, I probably wouldn't have made it. If I were 5 years old I probably wouldn't have made it. But you never hear about the stuff that should scare the crap out of you.

YES, there are BAD Pit Bull owners. :mad: But thankfully they are the minority.

Auventera Two
Jan. 16, 2009, 04:22 PM
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html

Which one is the American Pit Bull Terrier?

Samantha37
Jan. 16, 2009, 04:33 PM
Thank you SO much for posting that Auventera Two... that is fantastic, and I couldn't pick out the PB on the first few guesses, either.

Also check this out- turn your sound on and get the tissues:
http://www.pitbullproject.ca/pitflash.swf

Auventera Two
Jan. 16, 2009, 04:35 PM
I don't see packs of basset hounds taking down little old ladies in the street. We had a horrible mauling death here a few years ago.

While it is the owner that is responsible, this is not relevant to the person who is attacked by pit bulls.

Maybe one of these days this breed will have its aggressive tendencies bred out of them. I've seen plenty of nice pit bulls that seemed to be good pets, but their owners were also nice and responsible people.

I oppose BSL, but please don't try and sell me on the "poor misunderstood pit bull" crap. I understand what this breed is capable of and it's disingenuous to assert that they are no different than an Airedale or Cocker Spaniel.

If they have teeth, they'll bite. That's the rule. Depending on the breed and circumstances, that bite will require a band-aid, a stern NO, a trip to the ER, or a one way trip to the morgue. That applies to all dogs.

The legislator that patroned this Bill is merely responding to her constituent who was attacked by a pit bull - THAT DUG OUT OF ITS YARD to attack him and his dog.

It's not a good Bill and it will be withdrawn or fail. But the legislator isn't an idiot or stupid. She's doing her job. If you're a resident of that state and you oppose the Bill, just oppose it and come up with articulate arguments against BSL. There are plenty of good arguments against BSL.

Don't try and paint the breed as angelic and misunderstood because no one is going to believe you.

I do not agree with you JSwan. There is NOTHING inherently wrong with the breed. They are VERY lovable animals who are intensely human devoted. It's the aholes who get ahold of these wonderful animals and turn them into killers. And many dogs attack not even because they were "taught to fight" but because they have been abused and neglected and they are horribly horribly unsocialized.

Diane Whipple was killed by two Presa Canarios that started out killing chickens on a farm, so were given to a man at a junk yard who confined them to the back of the property tied up with a dog house. They then went to live with a couple in an upscale apartment building. By that time these dogs were so unsocialized and mentally unbalanced they were ticking timebombs.

The dogs had been giving signs for months that they were dangerous. Lunging out of control, growling, snapping. The owners poo pooed it instead of getting help. They never reprimanded the dogs, and they never had ANY clue that these dogs could POSSIBLY be dangerous. The dogs had already bitten Diane Whipple once and she became deathly terrified of them. That fear further fueled their agression until one day they broke lose from the owner and ran her down in the elevator and killed her. Only the soles of her feet were identifiable when they were done.

So whose fault is it??? Why wasn't help sought when the dogs killed chickens? MY DOGS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO HATE CATS OR SQUIRRELS OR CHICKENS OR ANYTHING ELSE. It is MY FARM and I say that squirrels and cats have every damned right in the world to live there. My dogs don't make the rules - I DO. And YES, all 3 of them at some point or another has lunged at a cat or a chicken and you better believe I did an alpha roll over and got all up in their business. It is NOT EVER acceptable to act agressively toward another animal EVER. If you allow agression toward small animals, it could escalate.

I have a Weimaraner that doesn't chase the chickens, a Pit Bull cross that doesn't chase the squirrels and a Beagle/Walker hound that won't chase rabbits. They know it's just not allowed, end of story.

PEOPLE are the ones who should be punished, not the dogs. It is a natural, visceral reaction to be scared of "scary things." But you being scared of it doesn't mean it's worth fearing.

dwblover
Jan. 16, 2009, 04:51 PM
That is SO ridiculous. If this woman wants to do something useful, than she should work on enforcing leash laws and ensuring people have adequate fencing. There is nothing like seeing a non-friendly dog enclosed by a three foot fence that he could a) Jump if he only had one leg b) Push over if he sneezed too hard. Forced euthanasia is not going to solve anything. She should also impose harsher fines for not adhering to leash laws. Injuries would be avoided if people would stop letting their dogs walk around without a leash.

seeuatx
Jan. 16, 2009, 04:54 PM
Pit bulls are useless POS - I say Good Riddance!

Considering that people say the same about Tbs coming out of Mountaineer... and considering that I have had 3 of those, let's just say that arguments like yours hold no weight. :rolleyes:

AiryFairy
Jan. 16, 2009, 07:29 PM
I
know you have had a bad experience so you want to paint the whole darn dog world with one big brush.
But please try to get facts.


Hey guess what. Read my first post. I HAVE the facts. I LIVED the facts, in one of the most horrible experiences of my life, and my dog just barely SURVIVED the "facts".


Many people have posted facts (experiences) that show your thoughts on the biting and not letting go thing to not be factually.

Again, you are incorrect.
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/breedinfo.php
"What can you expect from an APBT? First and foremost, memorize the following: THE GOLDEN RULE OF PIT BULL OWNERSHIP- NEVER TRUST YOUR PIT BULL NOT TO FIGHT!!!!! This breed is descended from pit dogs one way or another, and, given the right circumstances, most Pit Bulls will fight and against any other breed, they will win (you really don't want to see that!)." [And she's right, you DON'T want to see that].

"Pit Bulls are often dog-aggressive to one extent or another (this often shows up at or near sexual maturity). A dog that was previously non-dog aggressive may "turn-on" and suddenly doesn't like other dogs of the same sex, or, for that matter, any dogs at all, even housemates they have been raised with. Adult Pit Bulls should NEVER be left alone with other dogs and require proper supervision."

What she's saying is that the dog innately has aggressive traits, and now matter how cuddly your little pumpkin may be, it's always going to be there. You don't train it out, you merely manage it.

The dogs that attacked my dog were "good citizens", 6 years in town an no problems. Went to day care, socialized with other dogs, went to obedience school. And look what happened when they got loose. Do I think the entire breed needs to be exterminated? No. Do I think there needs to be SOME legislation to keep them restricted to people who can responsibly handle them? Absolutely. But how do you legislate common sense? The people that own the PB's think they're great doggy parents because they love their dogs. Not even the attack was enough to convince them that they had serious issues with leadership and dominance. At least the $1500 in vet bills may have had an impact, I but I haven't seen it yet.

JSwan
Jan. 16, 2009, 08:03 PM
I do not agree with you JSwan. There is NOTHING inherently wrong with the breed. They are VERY lovable animals who are intensely human devoted. It's the aholes who get ahold of these wonderful animals and turn them into killers.

I never said there was anything wrong with this breed. They're just dogs. They have been bred to fight.

Hounds have been bred to hunt.

Retrievers have been bred to retrieve.

And so on.

I didn't assign a good or bad value to that trait. I just stated that this breed is currently bred for fighting. It's merely a fact, and I didn't say there is anything inherently wrong with the breed.

It's that like with any breed of dog, the owner needs to be reasonable and educated.

I don't support breed bans, and I don't support banning pit bulls. I don't even like dangerous dog registries.

The problem with these dog attacks (the mauling and deaths) is that there are ALWAYS a history of complaints or problems with the dogs. Sometimes, but not always, the ACO or police have been called out numerous times and nothing was done. Until a little old lady dies. Then it's big news and talk about banning. Politics.

Please don't make me out to be the bad guy because I really do not support any of these laws banning or restricting dog ownership. I would, however, be supportive of a spay/neuter program for people. ;)

092556
Jan. 16, 2009, 08:38 PM
I remember several years ago when the cocker spaniel was the #1 biter, I guess this year it is the black lab. I was wondering if a majority of the pit bulls that are causing the damage are intact males. Maybe the public would be better served if the people that refused to neuter their males (I personally believe any breed) be required to buy permits which should include obedience training every year. The owners that refuse to permit their intact males should be rounded up and put to sleep? Just a thought!

Blinkers On
Jan. 16, 2009, 09:21 PM
Our veterinarian many years ago lived in a small town where kids coming from school went right by his 6" solid wood panel fence.
He got an aussie and the dog was delightful, was in one of our 4H club obedience clubs and had a great temperament.

One year this group of kids kept walking by his fence after school and hitting the panels and aggravating the dog into a frenzy.
By the time adults caught on, the dog was getting rather vicious on his fence attacks.
The parents were told to keep their kids off that route, but that didn't set well with them and the kids kept coming around when they thought no one was there.
If that dog had broken thru the fence, those kids may have been toast.:eek:

Eventually the vet had to rehome the dog, before someone got hurt.

Sometimes, it is not the dog's fault after all when one becomes dangerous, but the failings of our society.:(

The saddest part of the story, Bluey!

Blinkers On
Jan. 16, 2009, 09:24 PM
Pit bulls are useless POS - I say Good Riddance!

Wow, you are special, and upon what evidence have you decided this?

Blinkers On
Jan. 16, 2009, 09:39 PM
I

Hey guess what. Read my first post. I HAVE the facts. I LIVED the facts, in one of the most horrible experiences of my life, and my dog just barely SURVIVED the "facts".



Again, you are incorrect.
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/breedinfo.php
"What can you expect from an APBT? First and foremost, memorize the following: THE GOLDEN RULE OF PIT BULL OWNERSHIP- NEVER TRUST YOUR PIT BULL NOT TO FIGHT!!!!! This breed is descended from pit dogs one way or another, and, given the right circumstances, most Pit Bulls will fight and against any other breed, they will win (you really don't want to see that!)." [And she's right, you DON'T want to see that].

"Pit Bulls are often dog-aggressive to one extent or another (this often shows up at or near sexual maturity). A dog that was previously non-dog aggressive may "turn-on" and suddenly doesn't like other dogs of the same sex, or, for that matter, any dogs at all, even housemates they have been raised with. Adult Pit Bulls should NEVER be left alone with other dogs and require proper supervision."

What she's saying is that the dog innately has aggressive traits, and now matter how cuddly your little pumpkin may be, it's always going to be there. You don't train it out, you merely manage it.

The dogs that attacked my dog were "good citizens", 6 years in town an no problems. Went to day care, socialized with other dogs, went to obedience school. And look what happened when they got loose. Do I think the entire breed needs to be exterminated? No. Do I think there needs to be SOME legislation to keep them restricted to people who can responsibly handle them? Absolutely. But how do you legislate common sense? The people that own the PB's think they're great doggy parents because they love their dogs. Not even the attack was enough to convince them that they had serious issues with leadership and dominance. At least the $1500 in vet bills may have had an impact, I but I haven't seen it yet.

I am so sorry that you had a bad experience. But there are bad and good dogs . Owners are bad and good as well.
My dog is good and she is not and will not be a menace to society. It's hard to lay blame when the research is done and the proof is in the puddin...
Never a more abused breed in the history. Never

AiryFairy
Jan. 16, 2009, 11:46 PM
I am so sorry that you had a bad experience. But there are bad and good dogs . Owners are bad and good as well.
My dog is good and she is not and will not be a menace to society. It's hard to lay blame when the research is done and the proof is in the puddin...
Never a more abused breed in the history. Never

My dog is a good dog too. She is the softest, sweetest hound on the planet, adores people, cannot get enough attention. She also has a wicked prey drive, and if I were to let her loose my sweet, sensitive girl would be chasing every cat, squirrel and rabbit within five miles. It doesn't make her a bad dog, it makes her a DOG, with innate, hard wired instincts, just like pit bulls. The only way I control her chasing impulses is to never let her off leash. Perhaps you're a responsible owner, but when there are so many that aren't, those innate instincts are going to be a problem. There was one recent mauling in which a man had to stab a pit bull with a kitchen knife to get it off his wife and dogs, it didn't let go until the second blow. He said "I used to think pit bulls just got a bad rap, I don't think so anymore". I think you can't possibly relate until you've been through something like that.

Dutch
Jan. 17, 2009, 12:38 AM
Here's our vicious pitbull, Duke. He's a pound puppy and it was very obvious when we first adopted him that it was obivious he had been abused. Unless you count getting licked to death or getting swatted by his wagging tail, he's harmless, but his looks scare newcomers. He and our GSD are very close and they look out for each other, and squabble like children sometimes. Duke also likes to groom our GSD. Duke never really learned how to play with humans, but he is very affectionate.

I laughed when I read one of the other poster's describing how the whole rear end became involved in the tail wagging. Duke does the same thing and it is hilarious.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l98/mhaley1010/weblinks/DukeCape.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l98/mhaley1010/weblinks/DukeandRoxy.jpg

LisaB
Jan. 17, 2009, 08:42 AM
I actually agree with Woodland, on a personal level. But would I try to pass a law about it? No. Generally, the people who own pit bulls are crack heads and major drug dealers. Or, the are local young turds out to prove their manhood. Very very few people who enjoy dogs really want a pit bull. They are high maintenance on the training side. They are bred to fight. It doesn't make for a very nice animal to have around the farm and family. And good for the folks who believe in the breed and continue to promote and breed responsibily. You're the only ones to save the breed that unfortunately has run more rampant with the bad owners as stated above than any other breed at any other time.

WaningMoon
Jan. 17, 2009, 09:05 AM
I am not for BSL at all. ON the other hand I do feel there are just too many cases of non provoked attacks with these dogs. MY experience with them is this.

Good friend and neighbor had a litter. They wree all raised just as I would myself. Never,ever were they raised to be aggressive at all. They were very well socialized too. I knew these dogs from birth, and was at their home on an almost daily basis. They kept two of the pups. The brindle one seemed to especially like me. The other one hated everyone and was kept outside if someone came. The brindle was always sitting on my lap, going for rides in the car with me and whatnot. FIVE yrs later I was at their home. I was about to leave. As I had done hundreds of times in the past I put my hand on the doorknob to open it and the dog attacked me. Ripped my right leg right apart. The owner forcibly pulled the dog from my leg and it immediately again lounged for me and this time my neck. The owner did still have a hold of the dog and I did not get bit the second time. My leg still wears the scars now 25 yrs later.

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%201982%20to%202006%20Clifton.pdf

My best friend took in one from the humane society. NIce little dog, very pit bull looking. Seemed friendly enough to tehm but every time someone came she would hunker down and growl at them. They themselves though had no problem with her. now its been two yrs, my friend was attacked by the dog and had to go to the hospital. She brought it to the pound and asked for it to be put down. Then she felt bad and went and got her back. She has now bit the elderly lady who resides with her under state care. The friend is hiding htis as she knows the dog will be taken. The dog broke right through the screen door to bite the elderly lady. The dog ahs known this lady since the dog moved in. Wrong, wrong,wrong. The dog has also been cared for in a very loving manner and never asked to be aggressive.

I bred cows for ABS for 8 yrs. Since most farms have a dog I have had several dog encounters that were not that pleasant. I have been nipped seven times, 4 were pits, two were cockers, and the other one a collie. Thankfully each time the farmer was right there and they only resulted in nips.

Worked for our local vet for 12 yrs. During htis time I witnessed more pit probglems in thtaa office than from any other type of dog although the cockers were a close tie. They however would be unlikely to kill a person. Three vets right here in our area will not see a pit. WE have five towns where you can not have one. Now it would seem to me if pits and that type of dog were so innocent that there would be other dogs barred from towns and not just them. And I guess I should have added thta our vets would not deny a dog help, but the owner must tranq the dog before it comes into the office.

Look at the Montana baby that was killed by her grandmothers dog last yr. Now that baby was killed. The dog ripped right through the screen door and attacked her in her stroller. How often do you hear of another breed that will do that. I haven't , it is usually them. YEs, other dogs do bad things as well but it seems the most of the horrid unprovoked attacks are pits.

I do think they used to be a different dog. I feel many,many yrs of indescriminate breeding have led to what they are today. I know many ppl like to debunk the Merrit Clifton report but I like this one. I thinhk ppl who own the dogs will always find fault with a report that condemns them. I found the ( I think) last page or the one before that talk s of how they have found the pits and rottweillers are "wired" differently interesting.

I do not like BSL but feel something does need to be done. I think holding the ppl who want to own them responsible for the deaths and maimings they cause as being a good thing to do. The dog kills someone charge the owner with murder.

just my opinion based on my experience. I do not want them around me at all ever again. I do not visit my best friend at her home and haven't for yrs. I will not change my mind on these guys. Nope, just seen and experienced way too much. And it does seem they are most all friendly, easy going dogs the owner always states, until they decide to attack. Well its too late then. The one that bit me so bad was an especially friendly dog, and had been my friend for over 5 yrs. That tells me something about how they act and how much they can and should be trusted. Not at all in my opinion.

equusus
Jan. 17, 2009, 09:06 AM
The owners that refuse to permit their intact males should be rounded up and put to sleep? Just a thought!




Please don't make me out to be the bad guy because I really do not support any of these laws banning or restricting dog ownership. I would, however, be supportive of a spay/neuter program for people. ;)

I totally agree:yes: 100% with BOTH of these ideas! Bad owners are giving these dogs a bad rap.:no:

WaningMoon
Jan. 17, 2009, 09:17 AM
I totally agree:yes: 100% with BOTH of these ideas! Bad owners are giving these dogs a bad rap.:no:


Ideas are good. Not so sure of the bad owner part though. All the attacks I have been involved with or seen I have personally known the owners for many yrs, know how they treat and handle their dogs and this had made NOT ONE BIT of difference. I still think the owner needs to be held responsible though for any of their dogs actions. Killling the dog after the attack does not stop the rest of them from making their attacks when they decide the time it right.

Auventera Two
Jan. 17, 2009, 09:21 AM
My dog is a good dog too. She is the softest, sweetest hound on the planet, adores people, cannot get enough attention. She also has a wicked prey drive, and if I were to let her loose my sweet, sensitive girl would be chasing every cat, squirrel and rabbit within five miles. It doesn't make her a bad dog, it makes her a DOG, with innate, hard wired instincts, just like pit bulls. The only way I control her chasing impulses is to never let her off leash. Perhaps you're a responsible owner, but when there are so many that aren't, those innate instincts are going to be a problem. There was one recent mauling in which a man had to stab a pit bull with a kitchen knife to get it off his wife and dogs, it didn't let go until the second blow. He said "I used to think pit bulls just got a bad rap, I don't think so anymore". I think you can't possibly relate until you've been through something like that.

I'm sorry you had such a horrible experience with a horrible Pit Bull owner. Stories like yours is what make this such a sensitive issue.

Yes pit dogs were bred to fight. Yes they were bred to have a wicked drive that compels them to bite and hang on. (NO, they do NOT have "locking jaws." Just a REALLY strong innate desire to not let go, no matter what.) But do you realize how long its been since dogs were "pitted" and bred for pitting behavior????? It has been MANY MANY MANY generations.

My husband hates Pit Bulls, hates it that our dog is a 1/2. Will NEV-AH allow a purebred one in this house. Too bad, I can't convince him otherwise. :lol: But if I were to purchase a puppy, do you think I'd go into the ghetto and buy a dog from Gansta Two Pac that has them tied out in the ally???? Good grief. I'd go to a reputable breeder who has raised generations of show or family dogs with wonderful tractable personalities.

Many breeds of our horses were used in war. They were trained to kick in people's faces and charge over top of humans trampling them to the ground. Are they STILL bred and trained for these characteristics? Of course not.

The problem is that bad breeders and owners can't be banned from breeding and owning and selling as long as they're not breaking the law. I personally think it should be a crime to tie ANY dog to a tree with a dog house. I just don't believe in it. It creates unbalanced dogs who CAN get dangerous from lack of training and socialization. The dogs are often frustrated with WAY too much nervous energy built up, and that is a recipe for disaster.

Just google "pit bull breeder" and take a look at the VAST array of websites out there. Everything from gorgeous high quality show dogs with impeccable manners and reputation for being superb family dogs, down to Gansta Two Pac with a few females and a male tied out to his back tree, a spring pole, and 4 litters of puppies living in his basement. THOSE are the breeders that should be outlaws - NOT the breed.

Auventera Two
Jan. 17, 2009, 09:22 AM
Ideas are good. Not so sure of the bad owner part though. All the attacks I have been involved with or seen I have personally known the owners for many yrs, know how they treat and handle their dogs and this had made NOT ONE BIT of difference. I still think the owner needs to be held responsible though for any of their dogs actions. Killling the dog after the attack does not stop the rest of them from making their attacks when they decide the time it right.

So what exactly are you doing that you've been involved with "all" these Pit Bull attacks. :confused:

WaningMoon
Jan. 17, 2009, 09:29 AM
So what exactly are you doing that you've been involved with "all" these Pit Bull attacks. :confused:


I think I quite well explained that in the previous post.

Sorry guess its a few post up there now, the long one.

WaningMoon
Jan. 17, 2009, 09:34 AM
I'm sorry you had such a horrible experience with a horrible Pit Bull owner. Stories like yours is what make this such a sensitive issue.

Yes pit dogs were bred to fight. Yes they were bred to have a wicked drive that compels them to bite and hang on. (NO, they do NOT have "locking jaws." Just a REALLY strong innate desire to not let go, no matter what.) But do you realize how long its been since dogs were "pitted" and bred for pitting behavior????? It has been MANY MANY MANY generations.

My husband hates Pit Bulls, hates it that our dog is a 1/2. Will NEV-AH allow a purebred one in this house. Too bad, I can't convince him otherwise. :lol: But if I were to purchase a puppy, do you think I'd go into the ghetto and buy a dog from Gansta Two Pac that has them tied out in the ally???? Good grief. I'd go to a reputable breeder who has raised generations of show or family dogs with wonderful tractable personalities.

Many breeds of our horses were used in war. They were trained to kick in people's faces and charge over top of humans trampling them to the ground. Are they STILL bred and trained for these characteristics? Of course not.

The problem is that bad breeders and owners can't be banned from breeding and owning and selling as long as they're not breaking the law. I personally think it should be a crime to tie ANY dog to a tree with a dog house. I just don't believe in it. It creates unbalanced dogs who CAN get dangerous from lack of training and socialization. The dogs are often frustrated with WAY too much nervous energy built up, and that is a recipe for disaster.

Just google "pit bull breeder" and take a look at the VAST array of websites out there. Everything from gorgeous high quality show dogs with impeccable manners and reputation for being superb family dogs, down to Gansta Two Pac with a few females and a male tied out to his back tree, a spring pole, and 4 litters of puppies living in his basement. THOSE are the breeders that should be outlaws - NOT the breed.

ARe not the upper level dressage moves from war times, they are still being used, right? Like Ottamar Hermans Lippazans, those are war moves meant to kill. We may not be using them in war or to kill anymore but they are still being trained to do it I thought.

AiryFairy
Jan. 17, 2009, 12:30 PM
Yes pit dogs were bred to fight. Yes they were bred to have a wicked drive that compels them to bite and hang on. (NO, they do NOT have "locking jaws." Just a REALLY strong innate desire to not let go, no matter what.) But do you realize how long its been since dogs were "pitted" and bred for pitting behavior????? It has been MANY MANY MANY generations.

But you see, it doesn't matter. It is in their genetic makeup, yes, 'wired differently', maybe some have more drive than others but they all have the prey drive. The dogs that attacked me didn't come from a fighting situation, if they had, they would have been euthanised and not adopted out. Didn't matter that they were from a loving home, didn't matter that they often went to day care with other dogs and went to obedience school and were star pupils. It did not matter at all, because once they attacked, the owner was unable to control them, even by lying on top of them, it was as if he was not even there. The dogs were bent on killing, period, entirely unprovoked.

Teach
Jan. 17, 2009, 12:48 PM
The truth is, many "Pit Bulls" that get publicity for attacking or even killing are not Pit Bulls at all. A lot of people wouldn't know an American Pit Bull Terrier if they saw it. We all have these visions of massive dogs with muscles popping and a spike collar around their neck. Many Pits weigh only 35 to 50 pounds and look like a goofy terrier with floppy ears. American Bulldogs, Presa Canarios, Cane Corsos, the various Mastiffs, etc. ALL get mis-identified as being a "Pit Bull" because people are uneducated.


This is sooo true! We have a brindle Great Dane with natural drop ears who is ALWAYS being mistaken for a Pit. The conversation generally goes like this: Them: "Woo, he's the biggest Pit Bull I've ever seen. Aren't you afraid?" Me-"Well, SHE'S a brindle Great Dane. And no, I'm not afraid. She's temperment tested & obediance trained." Them: "Well, alls I know is, he's the biggest Pit Bull I've ever seen. I'd be afraid." Me: "*:confused:*" (leaves vicinity of moron).

Now, my girl is from show lines. She looks like a quality Dane should (read: nothing at all like a bully breed). She is 32 inches tall & weighs around 135-145 pounds; I'm only 5 feet tall, so that makes her look even larger. And this conversation has happened multiple times when her SISTER, who is fawn with drop ears, is standing RIGHT NEXT TO HER (they work in a brace-for the uninitiated, that's 2 dogs on 1 leash like a 2-horse hitch). People can't see that, except for color, the brindle is exactly the same dog as the fawn Marmaduke look-alike to her left; that lovely & unusual brindle coat color is just associated with Pits, as are the rose ears in their natural state. People see what they want to see. Meanwhile, my brother's dog is a Staffie cross (another breed commonly confused with Pits) & people often tell him what an absolutely adorable Lab mix puppy he has. :rolleyes:

Donna D
Jan. 17, 2009, 01:22 PM
This is complete Bullsh%$$#. They can't do it. BUT then this is the new America. Watch all your rights go down te drain. I haven't even read all of the posts, but I bet this Gov. is a democrat. Sooo the best thing to fight this with is, and I am affraid to say it, can't even dream of them fighting it, is PETA, Yes PETA. One Unamerican against another.

Bluey
Jan. 17, 2009, 02:28 PM
You know, 50 years ago it was german shepherd dogs that vere vicious and would attack unprovoked, even those that had been raised well and were gentle angels before they went mad.

20 years later, it was dobermans, that would turn on their owner and kill anyone that walked by.

Rottweilers had their time in the limelight as killers also after they became popular and the last years what passes for "pit bulls".

Just remember, it is not the breeds, but the situations the dogs find themselves in.

There are more accidents with vehicles maiming and killing people every day than dogs ever killed and I don't see anyone asking that vehicles be banned.:confused:

VCT
Jan. 17, 2009, 02:34 PM
Pit bulls are useless POS - I say Good Riddance!

You know, I've seen Woodland posts which are completely moronic before, but this takes the cake. Wonder what/who else you feel this way about? I mean aside from PB's and people who don't leave their horses stalls dirty on Sundays.

Thank you Ignore function. Good Riddance to you :)

LuvMyNSH
Jan. 17, 2009, 02:54 PM
Sooo the best thing to fight this with is, and I am affraid to say it, can't even dream of them fighting it, is PETA, Yes PETA. One Unamerican against another.

Sorry, PETA is anti-pit too. They 100% support BSL. PETA logic - many people mistreat pit bulls. If you ban pit bulls, so that no one can own them or breed them, then there will be no more pit bulls for anyone to abuse.

And there has been BSL introduced by Republicans too - this isn't a left vs right issue, there are more than enough idiots on both sides to go around. :)

Blinkers On
Jan. 17, 2009, 03:50 PM
My dog is a good dog too. She is the softest, sweetest hound on the planet, adores people, cannot get enough attention. She also has a wicked prey drive, and if I were to let her loose my sweet, sensitive girl would be chasing every cat, squirrel and rabbit within five miles. It doesn't make her a bad dog, it makes her a DOG, with innate, hard wired instincts, just like pit bulls. The only way I control her chasing impulses is to never let her off leash. Perhaps you're a responsible owner, but when there are so many that aren't, those innate instincts are going to be a problem. There was one recent mauling in which a man had to stab a pit bull with a kitchen knife to get it off his wife and dogs, it didn't let go until the second blow. He said "I used to think pit bulls just got a bad rap, I don't think so anymore". I think you can't possibly relate until you've been through something like that.

My older dog will chase a cat. Believe me I've tried... but they run... he's happy. :rolleyes: He is far from a menace to society. AND I think you'd be surprised to find the "drive" behind the pit is not to be a killer. Not even close.
It is so sad that you went through what you did, and I can't even begin to imagine what you went through. But I do know that my dog youldn't be a dog that would be in that position. I would be the first person to stick a needle in her leg if I thought for a second that she shows aggressive tendencies. There is no wiggle room on that. If she showed what has been "bred into her for years and years" I'd put her down right now!
I think to some degree what people have selectively bred for for who knows how long isn't their first response. One would think (and I am a BIG believer in the power of genetics) that if you "weed out" the loosers in a fight and breed only the winners or champions, that the pit bull would be more of a killing machine. Other dogs, small animals, big animals, people....BUT so many times I am blown away by how gentle and kind and wanting nothing more than human contact Maven is. It seems so opposite to everything we've ever been told. BUT it comes from the heart of her. Years and years of selectively breeding has left us with a snoring, cuddling, loyal pit bull. Amazing.
The fact alone that M. Vic's dog's were able to be re homed speaks volumes for this breed! Fights to the death but so adaptable that that they can be re schooled and re homed and be contributing to their community. Horrid dog indeed.
I think the most interesting and sad thing about this is that it is so hard to educate people who have already made up their mind. People who are so convinced that they are intrinsically evil. People are evil. Dogs? No. Any breed. They will take our good dogs and euthanize them rather than be educated about what they are ripping from our homes and lives.
A lack of education is always a shame. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing... again so sad and so true.
I hate seeing the pit with the studs and the tough guy garb. It's the wrong mentality to have about any breed.
My pit sometimes hangs from a tree by a rubber ring and a bungee. Or has a Frisbee hanging from her mouth as she tries to be like her big "brother." She has legs like Gumby. They go everywhere. She is a 50lb lap dog. I certainly never taught her that!
I WISH to God people would meet them as they truly are before they hate and sentence to death a really fun dog!!!
Ethnic cleansing is never ok.

Blinkers On
Jan. 17, 2009, 04:14 PM
I actually agree with Woodland, on a personal level. But would I try to pass a law about it? No. Generally, the people who own pit bulls are crack heads and major drug dealers. Or, the are local young turds out to prove their manhood. Very very few people who enjoy dogs really want a pit bull. They are high maintenance on the training side. They are bred to fight. It doesn't make for a very nice animal to have around the farm and family. And good for the folks who believe in the breed and continue to promote and breed responsibily. You're the only ones to save the breed that unfortunately has run more rampant with the bad owners as stated above than any other breed at any other time.

You are so wrong. You are totally misinformed by the media. Right about BSL.. wrong about the pit.
The people who have posted pics of their dogs I am betting are NOT drug dealers.
People who enjoy ownership of a dog ought to try a pit. They are so smart. learn readily, adapt to situations without hesitation. They are in fact LOW maintenance in the area of training as they want to please their owner.
And yes that does get abused. I have often wondered sadly what it would take to make my dog mean. I honestly don't know. There isn't a mean bone in her body. Ownership has been a joy! Other than her medical bills.
My shepherd mix would have been worth a mint as a fighting or working dog. Want to talk about drive.... he's got it.
I researched the pit before I brought Maven home. And the reality outweighs the media for me. I have never owned a more loving, wanting to please, adaptable dog in my life!

Blinkers On
Jan. 17, 2009, 04:18 PM
Just to add to my long windedness, my Mom is scared of dogs. The other day I heard her tell someone (after I told them she was a pit and walked away), that she is a "pussycat." A woman scared... no horrified of dogs her entire life tells someone that the "meanest" breed of dog is a "pussycat..." Speaks loudly about my pits temperament.

Auventera Two
Jan. 18, 2009, 09:21 AM
The people who have posted pics of their dogs I am betting are NOT drug dealers.

Hey! I am too! I have a mean batch of Tylenol in my desk drawer and I've been known to give it to a coworker with a headache! :lol:


People who enjoy ownership of a dog ought to try a pit. They are so smart. learn readily, adapt to situations without hesitation. They are in fact LOW maintenance in the area of training as they want to please their owner.
You are so right!! My Pit is half Lab of course, but he is THE most pleasing dog in the world. I never had to "train" him to do anything really. He just does it because he lives to please his humans. :lol:

Two of the naughtiest dogs I've ever met were Black Labs (barking, ripping up furniture, charging the mail man, you name it. ugh ) There are good Labs and bad Labs, my Lab/Pit mix is a really great dog.

But the point is, there are good and bad one in every breed and sometimes its bad genes from poor breeding choices, but more often it's bad training, lack of training, or lack of socialization. The naughty Labs I met were both rescues with no early puppy training.


I researched the pit before I brought Maven home. And the reality outweighs the media for me. I have never owned a more loving, wanting to please, adaptable dog in my life!
Amen to that. My husband was scared to even have a 1/2 Pit in the house, but my "locharooneytooney" is the best dog I've ever had :D :lol: As I type, he's laying on his back, peddaling his hind legs like he's riding a bike, with a dryer sheet in his mouth. What a goob. He's just a goofy, silly dog that does the silliest stuff. Not a mean bone in his body. And he was a rescue who came with a LOAD of past abuse and fear. You can't find a square inch of his body that doesn't have scars and he'll fall all over himself to get away from any person that's moving too fast or talking too loud. He'll hide and pee all over himself. He's been badly abused. His hocks were rubbed raw, obviously from sleeping on concrete, and the collar was almost grown into his neck. This guy didn't get any early puppy training or socialization.

AiryFairy - NO, Pits are not "wired differently." That's bullshit. Pits are selectively bred, just like any other breed of dog or horse or anything else. Buy from good bloodlines and good owners/handlers and you'll get a lovely family dog. Buy from a dope dealer on the corner whose been breeding who-knows-what in his garage and you might not get the best genes to start with. But still, socialization and early puppy training are THE most important, genes or not. And even adult dogs that were known to to be pitted by dog fighters, have STILL been rehomed and became wonderful family dogs!

BelladonnaLily
Jan. 18, 2009, 09:59 AM
I don't see packs of basset hounds taking down little old ladies in the street. We had a horrible mauling death here a few years ago.

Actually, I mostly agree with you, but my youngest daughter was bit by a basset hound a couple of years ago.

My oldest was bit by a Springer. We have one that lives on our farm (not the one that bit my daughter) and he has to be the DUMBEST creature I've ever seen. I cannot imagine why someone would want to frustrate themselves that much by owning one. When I walk with my heeler and labx, he taunts them and someday I REALLY REALLY want to tell my dogs to go ahead and eat him. But I won't...

Pits can be great dogs. But irresponsible breeding and ownership, combined with damage they can do (compared to a nasty chihuahua) makes them a dangerous breed. Sad, because I've met many I like. But I wouldn't want to live beside someone who had one.

WaningMoon
Jan. 18, 2009, 10:25 AM
Actually, I mostly agree with you, but my youngest daughter was bit by a basset hound a couple of years ago.

My oldest was bit by a Springer. We have one that lives on our farm (not the one that bit my daughter) and he has to be the DUMBEST creature I've ever seen. I cannot imagine why someone would want to frustrate themselves that much by owning one. When I walk with my heeler and labx, he taunts them and someday I REALLY REALLY want to tell my dogs to go ahead and eat him. But I won't...

Pits can be great dogs. But irresponsible breeding and ownership, combined with damage they can do (compared to a nasty chihuahua) makes them a dangerous breed. Sad, because I've met many I like. But I wouldn't want to live beside someone who had one.

That's the thing, all dogs can and do bite. But how many other breeds do youi see who will break through a door to kill a baby such as the montana case or again breaking through a door to maul and kill that disabled woman right in her bed? They go out of their way, those are not cases of provoked bites at all neither was me getting tore apart one.

I am sure you get a better chance of a better acting dog by buying from a responsible breeder versus backyard and drug dogs but I have seen to much to believe that the responsible breeder only puts out dogs who will not act in this way cause when they are ready they will. OH, some are likely able to get through life without maiming and killing but they are the exception not the rule.

For every post talking about how good their pit is you can find just as many where the ppl said the same thing about theirs until..... It is my experience there is just too much evidence of what they do and are capable of doing. YEs Labs bite and it was a lab who tore that ladys' face off in France a couple yrs back that led to the first face transplant. But you never see where a lab has gone out of its way, broken through a door, to take a life. It is a common thing with the pits.

I still say no to BSL, but make those who want to own them and are so mighty sure they will never do anything bad responsible for them. And I do mean responsible. Your dog kills, you get charged with murder. I just bet that grandmother in Montana wishes she still had her baby grandaughter to love. How can you ever reconcile with the fact that your dogs killed your grandaughter under your watch. I couldn't. Thankfully the police shot and killed those dogs right then and there.

Bluey
Jan. 18, 2009, 11:01 AM
I disagree that those few attack cases you mention don't happen with other breeds, they just don't get the press today, just as GSD, dobies, rotties and others that had a rare attack case be in the news gave all in their breeds a bad name.

No one has heard of the over 200 stitches a friend, that is a dog groomer and handler, had to get after her very nice samoyed, that was a breed and obedience champion, one day, out of the blue, tore a door down and attacked her, where she had to beat him off with a chair, or would not be here to tell it today.

That is the only time in a life as a professional dog trainer, handler and breeder that such happened and it was a breed no one hears about becoming aggressive.
If he had been a pit bull and happened today, it may have made the national news.

That is part of the bad press pit bulls have, along with being so many of them and so many in bad hands.

I quit having dobies when the press against them got so bad, because it was keeping me from doing what I wanted with my dog, without so much controversy, like going to nursing homes.
Since that many years ago, how many people have heard about dobies attacks, once rotties came on the limelight and now pit bulls?

People are not permitted to have tigers in their backyard without many provisions to protect the public.
I don't think we need to now consider the same for some breeds of dogs, or dogs over a certain size, or whatever division someone may want to think of what is an acceptable risk when owning a dog.

Guess that as the world is getting more crowded, if the people that like to or even can have animals keep shrinking, the majority will rule and we will lose any rights to have them, with the excuse to protect all.

Auventera Two
Jan. 18, 2009, 11:06 AM
Pits can be great dogs. But irresponsible breeding and ownership, combined with damage they can do (compared to a nasty chihuahua) makes them a dangerous breed. Sad, because I've met many I like. But I wouldn't want to live beside someone who had one.

NO. It makes them a POWERFUL breed. Not dangerous.

BelladonnaLily
Jan. 18, 2009, 11:11 AM
NO. It makes them a POWERFUL breed. Not dangerous.

Bad breeding and ownership does not MAKE them powerful. They, as a breed, ARE powerful. Part of the breed (as in breed standards and how they were originally bred) itself and not in itself a BAD thing. The bad breeding and bad ownership makes them DANGEROUS.

How many times do we hear about backyard breeders with unruly stallions and unhandled youngsters? These animals are powerful either way, but their circumstances make them dangerous...

Auventera Two
Jan. 18, 2009, 11:22 AM
What about the Presas that killed Diane Whipple? Or the little foo foo dog (can't remember the breed) that killed a baby while the mother was in the other room? The dog weighed about 10 pounds! :eek:

The most scared I have EVER been of a dog was my own beagle/walker hound when he was about a year old. Thinking nothing of it, I reached down and picked up the pig ear that was laying next to him and within a fraction of a second the dog knocked me down and was on top of me with teeth bared. A FREAKIN BEAGLE. I had to consult with a behaviorist to figure out where to go from there. He was a puppy mill dog, and not of particularly good genetics anyway. He's now 9 years old and he's fine, but that first year was tumultuous. :(

I was almost bitten by a friend's Chihuahua. I was walking into wallyworld and I heard my name. Turned around and there's my friend in his car. He pulled up next to me, rolled the window down, and as I tried to lean in, that dog came after me with teeth bared and snarling. If I had been a fraction of a second slower, that thing's fangs would have been in my face or my arm.

WaningMoon - You are VERY wrong that it's some kind of common thing that Pits tear down doors to murder humans. That is WRONG. I have never heard of this until this thread. :(

Keep in mind that if you have some idiot loser dope dealer that wants a "mean dog" tied out in his yard, he's NOT going to buy a Golden Retriever, or a Black Lab. He's going to buy one of the large, powerful breeds or a bully of some kind. So then you have an idot loser dope dealer trying to play "dog trainer" by teasing the dog, starving him, tieing him up with a 9 pound chain, putting spikes on his neck, poking him with a stick, and training him on a spring pole. So when that dog attacks the next person who comes on the property, WHO IS AT FAULT? The human or the dog?

If Goldies, Labs, Chihuahuas, or Collies looked tough and mean with heavy muscling and a bulldog stance, then THEY would be the ones that are taunted and tied up to trees and taught to attack people. And THEY would be the ones all over the news. Any dog can be dangerous. Some dogs come naturally equipped with bigger and more powerful teeth and we as humans need to use a little discretion over who owns these animals. The dogs are not at fault. The HUMANS are.

But I agree that not just anyone should own any of the powerful breeds. Should a green as grass rider who showed a pony in 4-H as a kid own some high powered, high bred imported Warmblood breeding stallion and attempt to stand him to mares? :confused: probably not. Does that mean that all stallions are vicious and dangerous and should be banned? No. It just means that certain types of animals require a bit more knowledge and consideration in order to DO IT RIGHT and not get anybody hurt.

I went to see a QH breeding stallion and the owner told me to "Stay back because he can be a little testy." Um, sure, ok. So I want to breed my mare to that? Not. Then you go to a different barn and you have a stallion of the SAME breed who is as mellow as a fresh hatched baby chick and there's a 6 year old girl standing on a bucket combing his tail while he sleeps in the cross ties.

So should Quarter Horse stallions all be banned, or should stupid owners be banned from owning these animals?

PUNISH THE DEED - NOT THE BREED.

tkhawk
Jan. 18, 2009, 11:40 AM
Banning will never work. Unfortunately there just seems to be a demand for fighting dogs. When those Presa Canarios -which can weigh 120 pounds or more killed Dianne , breeders got a ton of calls for the dogs. What kind of a human goes"Wow! That dog just ripped an adult woman to shreds-I need me one of those!" :o:eek:. As long as we have humans like that , demand will never be satiated. But those animals can cause a lot of damage even if they snap just once in their lifetime-my pom I had growing up would snap at everybody-everybody would just laugh..Banning and especially in today's AR world and you will have all types of people trying to ban different things jumping into this bandwagon. Sigh! Some times life is easier when it is simpler!

MistyBlue
Jan. 18, 2009, 12:06 PM
I don't think they should be banned despite their propensity for mauling people and pets. (and yes they do...because the majority of pits are owned by either clueless owner who don't train them or owned by asshats who wanted a tough dog...not the breeds' fault but it is a fact)
But I do think certain breeds should only be owned by permit. And that the permit number needs to be added to their tags they wear constantly so that at any time a dog in question can be checked immediately and removed from any owner who is not permitted to own that breed. Not pits only either...but probably for at least the top ten issue breeds.
This way if the owner have to go through a permit process and prove they're responsible experienced dog owners then ONLY the good owners have them over time. Then there's no issue of "no bad dogs, only bad owners." Fine, then remove the bad owners from the problem and remove the actual problem and bad rep of certain breeds.
Good dog owners won't care about having to have a permit, only the craptastic ones or clueless ones will care and they will get their inappropriate dogs removed from them over time. If the good owners don't have issues paying licensing fees and getting their rabies tags...what's he big deal of adding on one more $10-$20 permit fee and test?

Auventera Two
Jan. 18, 2009, 12:39 PM
I don't think they should be banned despite their propensity for mauling people and pets. (and yes they do...because the majority of pits are owned by either clueless owner who don't train them or owned by asshats who wanted a tough dog...not the breeds' fault but it is a fact)

The MAJORITY of these dogs are loving family dogs. But good news is not news. So the one Pit here or there that harms another animal or person gets the media coverage - not the thousands of them savings lives and sleeping in their owners beds every night.

http://network.bestfriends.org/thepitstop/news/2703.html

http://www.understand-a-bull.com/Articles/HeroicPitties/HeroicPitties.htm

How many of THOSE stories made headline news???? Did the Reader's Digest publish the story of the female Pit Bull who swam across flood waters every day pulling a sled of food and supplies to people stranded on high ground until they could be rescued? NO. Instead they published the story of the two horribly unsocialized and abused Pit Bulls that attacked a man on the street and "fed" on him until he died in a hospital a week later.

Humans have a sick compulsion for gore and horror. Take a walk through your local video store if you don't believe me. Some of the greatest selling movies of all time were horrific and graffic horror movies of people being butchered and tortured. WHAT IS WRONG with us that we find some kind of amusement and entertainment value in these stories???

I never watch the news because I can't stand it. Rape, murder, torturing of animals, robberies, that's ALL you ever hear. In the last week, two different groups of snowmobilers tortured and killed 6 deer, and 158 ducks in WI. They ran over them with their snowmobiles, broke their legs, hung them from trees. It's all we've heard about for the last week to the point I can't stand to turn on the TV or the radio. Where are all the GOOD stories??? :confused: Good and clean don't make the ratings. Gore and horror DO and that is incredibly sad.

Humans have exploited this wonderful breed and it is humans who deserve the punishment.

The links above represent 55 different and unique stories of Pit Bulls savings lives or doing good deeds but I bet you haven't read about a single one of them or saw them on TV have you?

WaningMoon
Jan. 18, 2009, 03:20 PM
What about the Presas that killed Diane Whipple? Or the little foo foo dog (can't remember the breed) that killed a baby while the mother was in the other room? The dog weighed about 10 pounds! :eek:

The most scared I have EVER been of a dog was my own beagle/walker hound when he was about a year old. Thinking nothing of it, I reached down and picked up the pig ear that was laying next to him and within a fraction of a second the dog knocked me down and was on top of me with teeth bared. A FREAKIN BEAGLE. I had to consult with a behaviorist to figure out where to go from there. He was a puppy mill dog, and not of particularly good genetics anyway. He's now 9 years old and he's fine, but that first year was tumultuous. :(

I was almost bitten by a friend's Chihuahua. I was walking into wallyworld and I heard my name. Turned around and there's my friend in his car. He pulled up next to me, rolled the window down, and as I tried to lean in, that dog came after me with teeth bared and snarling. If I had been a fraction of a second slower, that thing's fangs would have been in my face or my arm.

WaningMoon - You are VERY wrong that it's some kind of common thing that Pits tear down doors to murder humans. That is WRONG. I have never heard of this until this thread. :(

Keep in mind that if you have some idiot loser dope dealer that wants a "mean dog" tied out in his yard, he's NOT going to buy a Golden Retriever, or a Black Lab. He's going to buy one of the large, powerful breeds or a bully of some kind. So then you have an idot loser dope dealer trying to play "dog trainer" by teasing the dog, starving him, tieing him up with a 9 pound chain, putting spikes on his neck, poking him with a stick, and training him on a spring pole. So when that dog attacks the next person who comes on the property, WHO IS AT FAULT? The human or the dog?

If Goldies, Labs, Chihuahuas, or Collies looked tough and mean with heavy muscling and a bulldog stance, then THEY would be the ones that are taunted and tied up to trees and taught to attack people. And THEY would be the ones all over the news. Any dog can be dangerous. Some dogs come naturally equipped with bigger and more powerful teeth and we as humans need to use a little discretion over who owns these animals. The dogs are not at fault. The HUMANS are.

But I agree that not just anyone should own any of the powerful breeds. Should a green as grass rider who showed a pony in 4-H as a kid own some high powered, high bred imported Warmblood breeding stallion and attempt to stand him to mares? :confused: probably not. Does that mean that all stallions are vicious and dangerous and should be banned? No. It just means that certain types of animals require a bit more knowledge and consideration in order to DO IT RIGHT and not get anybody hurt.

I went to see a QH breeding stallion and the owner told me to "Stay back because he can be a little testy." Um, sure, ok. So I want to breed my mare to that? Not. Then you go to a different barn and you have a stallion of the SAME breed who is as mellow as a fresh hatched baby chick and there's a 6 year old girl standing on a bucket combing his tail while he sleeps in the cross ties.

So should Quarter Horse stallions all be banned, or should stupid owners be banned from owning these animals?

PUNISH THE DEED - NOT THE BREED.

Well, as common as these attacks are I do not understand how youi've missed it. I cdould provide links to these kinds of attacks all day. It would be pointless, a waste of time, ppl stick up for them until they have reason not to and then it's too late. I am done, said what I wanted to. WE all have our rights to our opinions. Mine are based on personal experience for the most part.

Auventera Two
Jan. 18, 2009, 03:34 PM
Well, as common as these attacks are I do not understand how youi've missed it. I cdould provide links to these kinds of attacks all day. It would be pointless, a waste of time, ppl stick up for them until they have reason not to and then it's too late. I am done, said what I wanted to. WE all have our rights to our opinions. Mine are based on personal experience for the most part.

I'm sure you COULD dig up some links. I could post probably 50 links of Pit Bulls attacking people or other dogs. But I could also post 50 links of other kinds of dogs attacking humans or other dogs. Ever go to a behaviorist and ask about how many dog on dog agression cases they've worked on??? I have and it's staggering. And most of them are every day breeds that we all live with and think NOTHING of.

I work with a lady who sent around a "help me" email a couple weeks ago regarding her mixed breed herding dog who is agressive to her daughter. And from her description, she has a red zone, VERY dangerous dog in the making. Yikes. :( She found a behaviorist to help her sort out the problems before someone is seriously hurt.

You had a bad experience. So sorry for that. But crap happens, and it could have happened if it was an agressive Lab or Golden Retriever or Collie also. When I was a kid my horse was attacked by two rottweilers and a jack russel terrier. He carried those scars his whole life. Our stupid neighbors raised these horrible unsocialized rotties out in the dog kennel behind their garage. On MORE than one ocassion those dogs tormented us. I was supposed to be hand walking my horse after a tendon injury, and out of nowhere these two rotties came tearing after us like they would eat us for lunch. The horse bolted and I was hanging onto leadrope in one hand and mane in the other. I was about 14 years old and I think my feet were touching down every 20 feet or so. It was terrifying. My grandpa ended up shooting one of these dogs after it killed some of his livestock.

Do I have anything against ANY of these breeds? Including my own beagle who attacked me??? NO. These were ALL examples of VERY badly bred and poorly socialized dogs lacking appropriate training. NOT the dog's fault.

AiryFairy
Jan. 18, 2009, 04:26 PM
You had a bad experience. So sorry for that. But crap happens, and it could have happened if it was an agressive Lab or Golden Retriever or Collie also.
Do I have anything against ANY of these breeds? Including my own beagle who attacked me??? NO. These were ALL examples of VERY badly bred and poorly socialized dogs lacking appropriate training. NOT the dog's fault.

You're skillfully and willfully missing the point Waning Moon is trying to make. You're also confusing bad breeding with innate characteristics. In my case the three dogs that attacked me were NOT rogue strays, they've lived in a home for years, socialized with other dogs, obedience trained, by all appearance canine good citizens. Yet, when given the opportunity, they became killers, in the blink of an eye, the owner couldn't even control them. The point is that this behavior is INNATE, it's called a prey drive. It doesn't go away, it's always there in some form or other. Aggression and prey drive are NOT THE SAME THING. Badly bred dogs can have behavioral issues, like the Lab that attacked my friend's dog and ripped his chest open. That has nothing to do with a pit bull's prey drive, it is a dog that was bred for centuries to kill.

Good Amstaff breeders cull anything that shows aggression in their bloodlines, they don't want it. Unfortunately it's not the good Amstaffs that are on the streets attacking humans and dogs. The ones that show up on the streets and in rescue have been bred specifically FOR their aggression and their enhanced prey drive by the dog fighting thugs.

Auventera Two
Jan. 18, 2009, 04:56 PM
You're skillfully and willfully missing the point Waning Moon is trying to make. You're also confusing bad breeding with innate characteristics. In my case the three dogs that attacked me were NOT rogue strays, they've lived in a home for years, socialized with other dogs, obedience trained, by all appearance canine good citizens. Yet, when given the opportunity, they became killers, in the blink of an eye, the owner couldn't even control them. The point is that this behavior is INNATE, it's called a prey drive. It doesn't go away, it's always there in some form or other. Aggression and prey drive are NOT THE SAME THING. Badly bred dogs can have behavioral issues, like the Lab that attacked my friend's dog and ripped his chest open. That has nothing to do with a pit bull's prey drive, it is a dog that was bred for centuries to kill.

Good Amstaff breeders cull anything that shows aggression in their bloodlines, they don't want it. Unfortunately it's not the good Amstaffs that are on the streets attacking humans and dogs. The ones that show up on the streets and in rescue have been bred specifically FOR their aggression and their enhanced prey drive by the dog fighting thugs.

When I got my Weimaraner the rescue place told me to NOT under any circumstances let her get around cats because it might not end happily. Sure, she tried to attack them with her "innate prey drive" when she first moved in here but she learned pretty quick that it's not acceptable. She now sleeps on the couch right next to the cat. No problems EVER. Princess Ladybug tells all three dogs to eff off and they do! :lol: Of course we selectively breeds animals for specific traits, but training is HUGE.

Wild dingos and wolves are driven out of the pack, or even killed by fellow pack members if they are unstable and constantly causing problems. Dogs are highly social animals that easily and happily submit to the heirarchial scale. If they don't, they will probably die. THAT is innate above and beyond any special characteristics we have bred into them.

As Cesar Milan says, the dog is first an animal, then a dog, THEN the breed. In other words, there is a specific order of needs. Pulling, hunting, guarding, fighting, etc. are the LAST things that the dog desires. Before that is resources, social interaction and leadership.

What about all these dogs that were bred to take down large prey who live peacefully on our farms amongst our domestic animals and NEVER attack them? If we selectively bred them for generations to take down large prey, then why aren't they out there killing your horses? Because they submit to training and social heirarchy. If their leader says it's not appropriate to take down this horse, then they just don't do it.

You're freaked out because your dog got attacked by two other dogs. I'm REALLY sorry about that, but the fact is - IT HAPPENS EVERY DAY and it happens among ALL kinds of breeds. I would bet 1,000 bucks that those Pits that attacked your dog were NOT socialized and trained like you thought they were. I would guarantee there were warning signs or other incidents, even if you were unaware of them. A good and responsible owner will pick up on that stuff and get help BEFORE someone gets hurt. I had to do that with my Beagle. I had to get help. And that's a goofy little hound dog fercripesake. :lol:

What if a horse kicks a human and kills them? Or tramples them and kills them? Do we ban and euthanize all horses of that same breed?

LisaB
Jan. 19, 2009, 01:30 PM
Blinkers,
unfortunately, no, I'm not blinded by the media. I get blinded by the swat reports and how many pit bulls the crack house has and they have to be destroyed. Hubby is in law enforcement. So, Blinkers OFF :D
It's not the folks who want to promote the breed, it the crack houses and young turds who keep breeding badly and training badly that make these laws go into affect.
The local yo yo who wants to prove he actually has a set of balls will get the first pit bull puppy at the cheapest price (so, you know he can have enough money to get his tricked out muffler for his hyundai) is one problem. Another HUGE problem that the pro-Pit Bulls folks are TOTALLY glossing over is the fact that DRUG DEALERS are using them as KILLERS.
So, when you say your dog is great and totally dismiss this fact, the general public is going to completely ignore you because they think you are either stupid or blind.
I would try to work with law enforcement and stop the drug dealers from using your dogs or any dogs for that matter.

BelladonnaLily
Jan. 19, 2009, 03:28 PM
Well said, LisaB.

grayarabs
Jan. 19, 2009, 06:49 PM
The RCA dog Nipper - he was most likely what breed?
As much as I love dogs - there are some breeds that I will never feel comfortable around - living close by me - and/or having to run into when out walking my dogs.
perhaps it is size - or knowing what a dog is capable of doing. Regardless, there is a most definite increase in the number of pit bulls seen here past years. A subdivision went up between my humble townhouse community and a well known country club. The new houses would not sell - investors bought them - most all rented out. We have learned that most of the renters have criminal records - which is scary in itself. Never fails - after a few weeks of having moved in - a pit bull appears in their backyards. (flimsy wooden fences, and/but dogs cannot see out). Always left outside - sometimes chained - rarely seen out being walked. If they are seen out of the backyard - they are loose. Ultimately they are asked to remove the dogs - and they are not replaced. I think so many of the thug-types would not have a dog - they only want a pit bull as some kind of a symbol. There are two PB's in my townhouse community - they are rarely seen outside. One owner walks his dog on what looks to be a very long telephone cord. We all know where those dogs live - and avoid walking past the houses - with the dogs on back patio - fearing the gait is not secure - or whatever.
These two dogs are owned by men who should not even have a dog.
You see enough of this and cannot help but be concerned - wrong owners/situation for the breed. One of the rental houses near me - we all saw the new puppy. Absolutely adorable. Mostly white - with black button nose - a large black "spot" covering/surrounding one black eye - the other eye surrounded by white - but black eye. This dog is cute, cute, cute.
As a puppy - in a fenced backyard - chained to a tree. Never a peep out of the little dog.
Until cold weather when it started whimpering. Dog not allowed in house - no shelter.
We all called SPCA - they came out - counseled - now the dog off the chain and has a house. SPCA says the dog is a pit bull. Those of us that see the dog don't think he is full pit - he looks like a JRT mix with pit. None of us are pit bull fans - but we are concerned about this dog - and I daily make a point to peek through the fence to see how he is doing. We hate it that he has no social life - no doggie coats for the cold weather - we see him shivering - his life is in the backyard with solid fencing and cannot see anything else. I will say again - I do not like pit bulls - but this one has gotten to me.
I know he has not received vaccinations - so worry about distemper and parvo - and am sure he will not be neutered. All this to say - in regards to pits - well sometimes I just hate people!!!

AiryFairy
Jan. 19, 2009, 06:55 PM
Blinkers,
unfortunately, no, I'm not blinded by the media. I get blinded by the swat reports and how many pit bulls the crack house has and they have to be destroyed. Hubby is in law enforcement. So, Blinkers OFF :D
It's not the folks who want to promote the breed, it the crack houses and young turds who keep breeding badly and training badly that make these laws go into affect.
The local yo yo who wants to prove he actually has a set of balls will get the first pit bull puppy at the cheapest price (so, you know he can have enough money to get his tricked out muffler for his hyundai) is one problem. Another HUGE problem that the pro-Pit Bulls folks are TOTALLY glossing over is the fact that DRUG DEALERS are using them as KILLERS.
So, when you say your dog is great and totally dismiss this fact, the general public is going to completely ignore you because they think you are either stupid or blind.
I would try to work with law enforcement and stop the drug dealers from using your dogs or any dogs for that matter.

Thank you - well said. As an example, here's what a nearby shelter is advertising this week:

"Labrador Retriever / Pit Bull X, Neutered Male, 11 months old, not recommend with children under the age of 6, has been good with cats, but is not good with other dogs. Rocky is here because his owner was incarcerated. He is housetrained and would need to be the only pup in his new home."

Let your imagination run wild.

Blinkers On
Jan. 20, 2009, 10:49 AM
Blinkers,
unfortunately, no, I'm not blinded by the media. I get blinded by the reports and how many pit bulls the crack house has and they have to be destroyed. Hubby is in law enforcement. So, Blinkers OFF :D
It's not the folks who want to promote the breed, it the crack houses and young turds who keep breeding badly and training badly that make these laws go into affect.
The local yo yo who wants to prove he actually has a set of balls will get the first pit bull puppy at the cheapest price (so, you know he can have enough money to get his tricked out muffler for his hyundai) is one problem. Another HUGE problem that the pro-Pit Bulls folks are TOTALLY glossing over is the fact that DRUG DEALERS are using them as KILLERS.
So, when you say your dog is great and totally dismiss this fact, the general public is going to completely ignore you because they think you are either stupid or blind.
I would try to work with law enforcement and stop the drug dealers from using your dogs or any dogs for that matter.

Lisa I understand where you are coming from as you see one side of the equation. The side of criminals and thugs abusing these dogs for their purpose, whatever that may be.
I fortunately see both sides of the equation. My Blinkers are OFF;) on this. As previously mentioned my friend has a mix breed (non pit) that was a drug "guarding dog" for the first 5 years of her life. She either protected it or was beaten. That was 10 years ago. She's a great dog now. Plays with my dogs, accepting of people unless her owner is uneasy. Fair enough. I expect the same of my dogs.
It's easy for law enforcement to be exposed to the "dark-side" of the pit. But the reality is they are a really good dog! Their loyalty is what makes them fighters or protectors. BUT they are also useful in law enforcement. K-9 units, border patrol, drug sniffing, cadaver, search and rescue, the list is endless as to their usefulness. There are always 2 sides to every coin. Then there was Sargent Stubby, Helen Keller's dog, Popsicle.. a drug guarding dog turned good. The dog from the Little Rascals.. the list is endless.

Auventera Two
Jan. 20, 2009, 12:02 PM
The RCA dog Nipper - he was most likely what breed?
As much as I love dogs - there are some breeds that I will never feel comfortable around - living close by me - and/or having to run into when out walking my dogs.
perhaps it is size - or knowing what a dog is capable of doing. Regardless, there is a most definite increase in the number of pit bulls seen here past years. A subdivision went up between my humble townhouse community and a well known country club. The new houses would not sell - investors bought them - most all rented out. We have learned that most of the renters have criminal records - which is scary in itself. Never fails - after a few weeks of having moved in - a pit bull appears in their backyards. (flimsy wooden fences, and/but dogs cannot see out). Always left outside - sometimes chained - rarely seen out being walked. If they are seen out of the backyard - they are loose. Ultimately they are asked to remove the dogs - and they are not replaced. I think so many of the thug-types would not have a dog - they only want a pit bull as some kind of a symbol. There are two PB's in my townhouse community - they are rarely seen outside. One owner walks his dog on what looks to be a very long telephone cord. We all know where those dogs live - and avoid walking past the houses - with the dogs on back patio - fearing the gait is not secure - or whatever.
These two dogs are owned by men who should not even have a dog.
You see enough of this and cannot help but be concerned - wrong owners/situation for the breed. One of the rental houses near me - we all saw the new puppy. Absolutely adorable. Mostly white - with black button nose - a large black "spot" covering/surrounding one black eye - the other eye surrounded by white - but black eye. This dog is cute, cute, cute.
As a puppy - in a fenced backyard - chained to a tree. Never a peep out of the little dog.
Until cold weather when it started whimpering. Dog not allowed in house - no shelter.
We all called SPCA - they came out - counseled - now the dog off the chain and has a house. SPCA says the dog is a pit bull. Those of us that see the dog don't think he is full pit - he looks like a JRT mix with pit. None of us are pit bull fans - but we are concerned about this dog - and I daily make a point to peek through the fence to see how he is doing. We hate it that he has no social life - no doggie coats for the cold weather - we see him shivering - his life is in the backyard with solid fencing and cannot see anything else. I will say again - I do not like pit bulls - but this one has gotten to me.
I know he has not received vaccinations - so worry about distemper and parvo - and am sure he will not be neutered. All this to say - in regards to pits - well sometimes I just hate people!!!

That's why I posted the link - identify the pit bull. Most purebred American Pit Bull Terriers do NOT look like the horrifying monster in a spike collar ready to take you down if you turn your back. Good grief. :rolleyes: Most pits look like super cute, goofy little terriers with floppy ears and a boxy head. They weigh between 30 and 50 pounds, and you'd be hard pressed to identify them as Pit Bulls unless you know the breed well.

People don't realize that many of the show dogs that are stood at stud, or advertised on websites are worked on a doggie treadmill wearing a backpack with weights every day and fed VERY high protein feed. It's like the halter AQHA people. Big poppy muscles, bulldog chest with turned in legs and tipping the scales at over 100 pounds. Put a leather collar on their neck and a big linked chain and people shake in their boots. And most of the "shady" breeders tie the dogs up with heavy chains to make them build up even more muscle.

But the majority of Pits do NOT look like this because they eat a normal diet, and they aren't worked to build up muscle mass. The majority of every day Pit Bulls found in shelters or living in homes are a moderately built dog with good muscling, but not grotesque. They often don't have their ears cropped, they wear an ordinary flat leather or nylon collar, and they are treated and handled no different than any other dog.

Does a winning AQHA halter horse look the same as a winning AQHA jumper? Hardly. Same breed, totally different look based on diet, bloodlines, and work.