Work in hand, half steps.

[keana]

Hi everyone.

You may remember me from this
(http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=161708&highlight=levade)

Any one want to talk to me about work in hand?

I have about ten sessions with working my mare in hand working on the half steps, I'm useing Jane Savoie/ kira kirklands tap, tap, tap, (no hitting) plus clicker training. I know that it don't look like much right now, but I'm pleased she is so willing and relaxed.

We don't have room do really do a trot circle so I can see I'm holding her back too much and it's missing up with her Rhythm, plus a training horse can have her head a lot lower.


What I do have room for is working on stretching, that trail of tears looking movement? does it have a name?

I have the Richard Hinrichs dvd, but I need to get the book.

This shows the movement I'l talking about at the very end. and seems to cue it by pointing the whip down...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD70Iam5f3k&feature=channel_page

Here me and my mare, the sound is her blanket in the dryer. ingore my chore outfit, hubby's coat is warm!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfIp5g69Bjo

[slc2]

I don't feel that's really going in the right direction for dressage.

[keana]

Because she is in a halter?

Or you feel like stretching is bad?

you don't like half steps? or me doing half steps???

She does it more correctly in a bit and when we have room we are much more forward....

I was way to tight in her face.

But I seen a few "trys" that makes me think she is understanding the idea, don't run me over and have a reaction, she don't know what reaction she should have right now and is all over the place, but I think she will learn soon.

It seems to really be improving her cantering and ability to collect a bit on the long lines.....

I'll put up a video of her collecting a little and see if you can help us with it.

[keana]

This is how we started out. lots of taping until she holds the leg in the air.

Then I went on to walking in hand but it cirlces like she is doing under the saddle.
Jane Savoie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUm_jcuBAag&feature=channel_page


Me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jjx7hM8EC0&feature=channel_page

[class]

Because she is in a halter?

Or you feel like stretching is bad?

you don't like half steps? or me doing half steps???



i am no half step or in-hand expert. but i would say the stretching and halter have nothing to do with the problems:

she is stepping backwards.

her feet are randomly being picked up and put down with no semblance of a trot rhythm.

i can't tell you whether you are going in the right direction or not. i like her relaxation, but rhythm is the very first step in the training scale and there appears to be none at all.

[stryder]

Keana:

I can't see behind the guy in the first video, but I assume he's half-halting to raise the horse's head and help bring hind legs under him. You seem to be pulling back on the lead. These are not the same actions and the outcome is different.

You want to raise the head and shift weight to the rear. This helps collect the horse. It will be easier to do with the bridle. Using the fence is a good idea, because the horse will find it easier to be crooked than be straight and collected. Especially as you elevate more, and/or he is stiff.

If you use too much hand, the horse will stop and/or back. Use less hand and draw the horse forward, then try again.

At first, it will be very difficult for the horse to hold its head up high. His nose will be out. The horse holds ITS head up. You do not. As the horse gains strength, if your hand is light, he will find it more comfortable to drop his nose. You can also piaffe from here.

When he's light, give. He'll want to stretch out, head way down. Let him. He's been working very hard and needs to stretch. This pose isn't cued, it's simply allowed.

Have fun.

[keana]

i am no half step or in-hand expert. but i would say the stretching and halter have nothing to do with the problems:

she is stepping backwards.

her feet are randomly being picked up and put down with no semblance of a trot rhythm.

i can't tell you whether you are going in the right direction or not. i like her relaxation, but rhythm is the very first step in the training scale and there appears to be none at all.

Yes that is a problem, But if you watch Richard hinrich work in hand he has the horses go back then move forward into piaffe..... so he uses the back up as a tool teaching piaffe, I'm not trying to do that...so the back wards steps is not good, your right.. it's not what I want....

No rhytum at all your right, starting out a lot will not have correct trot rhytum or throw in a extra step or two..or jig
but until the horse has a firm understanding of what you want, which she don't at this point, she move her legs this way or that all I'm looking for is a reaction and her not to run me over. I feel this is the tools I need to make it into half steps.

I'm not going to ask she be perfect becuase I want relaxation over rhytum, once she is relaxed and knows what I want I can start demanding rhytum from her. or so I'm thinking.. I don't want to lose her relaxation at this point it's not about geting a piaffe, it's about her carrying a bit of weight on her hind legs and having a bit of pip.



she knows I'm looking for a reaction, so she is trying a lot of things, a lot is not the correct thing, but I reward for the try and then she will keep trying hopefully some day it will look like true half steps...

Are you saying I should put rhytum above relaxation at this point?

If I did I could probably get her to piaffe, but I want softness so I'm willing to put up with no rhytum and legs all over, I'm no expert but I'm trying to learn and having fun.

[keana]

Keana:

I can't see behind the guy in the first video, but I assume he's half-halting to raise the horse's head and help bring hind legs under him. You seem to be pulling back on the lead. These are not the same actions and the outcome is different.

You want to raise the head and shift weight to the rear. This helps collect the horse. It will be easier to do with the bridle. Using the fence is a good idea, because the horse will find it easier to be crooked than be straight and collected. Especially as you elevate more, and/or he is stiff.

If you use too much hand, the horse will stop and/or back. Use less hand and draw the horse forward, then try again.

At first, it will be very difficult for the horse to hold its head up high. His nose will be out. The horse holds ITS head up. You do not. As the horse gains strength, if your hand is light, he will find it more comfortable to drop his nose. You can also piaffe from here.

When he's light, give. He'll want to stretch out, head way down. Let him. He's been working very hard and needs to stretch. This pose isn't cued, it's simply allowed.

Have fun.


Thanks so much! your so right! I have her reined in WAY to much, holding her head for her, how can she find her blance? poor baby!


I think it's becuase she was super high and full of her self ;)

Her head is too high and I should let it drop, I think just the weight of the bit in her mouth helps her want to hold her own head, I like the energy she was giving me but I had no where to move it out like I should have.

"it's simply allowed" what a lovely way of putting it! so if you have true collection he will want to stretch just as in riding... to rest.

I think our next try will be a lot more forward..... we are working on shoulder in "in hand" along with this.

[mzm farm]

Well, your horse is trying very hard to figure out what you want. She is showing a little bit of anxiety, which is normal for learning a new and complicated idea.

I think you are on the right track with her. She has the idea you want her back feet to keep moving, even though you do not have much room, you should at this point be letting her move forward a little bit as you work the piaffe otherwise, you loose any collection she can offer, which currently is not too much (see how far under the body the original grey horse's feet are compared to yours?) The only way to get collection is for your horse to continue to develop properly and continue to think "forward" even as you bring her piaffe onto the spot.

Now, collection takes a lot of strength. Believe it or not, one of the best ways to develop that strength in my opinion and experience is "long trotting" It is not really a "trail of tears" head set as much as a neck that is pushed up at the base creating a thick triangular muscle in front of the wither, the trot is PUSHING forward, not running or rushing. That is something you have to feel, no way to tell over a computer screen. I let my horse decide on the speed of this trot and try to keep at it for a 1/4mi to 1mi, then some breaks - walk on loose rein. It has made a world of difference to the little guy I am teaching piaffe to.

As far as rhythm of the piaffe: keep moving forward and cue with your whip rhythmically, that will help. When she figures it out, muscles up and gains confidence in her new skill, the rhythm should improve.

One last thought, I would not ask so many repetitions nor so many steps - it is hard work. Get a correct responce and quit while you are ahead. If you wait until she is maxed out, she is too tense to really connect the quit with positive.

I usually quit after 3 attempts (good or bad)or sooner if I get a really good one to start with. The horse needs time to "process", his body is tired and tired horses don't put out 100%+ effort mentally or physically. It is a recipe for bad habits to start.

Best of luck with your girl, you seem to be doing well.

[slc2]

Because she is in a halter?

--No.

Or you feel like stretching is bad?

--I do not feel stretching is bad. No one who has done any dressage with any decent instructor is going to be against the principle of stretching. I don't actually see any correct stretching here, though.

you don't like half steps? or me doing half steps???

--I use half steps extensively. I think they are great. A very powerful training tool. But these aren't half steps.

--I am commenting because the horse is not doing the half steps correctly. I don't have anything against you doing half steps, but these are not half steps. From what I see here, I don'[t think you understand the principles behind half steps or what they are.

She does it more correctly in a bit and when we have room we are much more forward....

--I don't think that's the problem. I think it's more fundamental than that.

I was way to tight in her face.

--I don't think that's the problem. More fundamental than that.

But I seen a few "trys" that makes me think she is understanding the idea, don't run me over and have a reaction, she don't know what reaction she should have right now and is all over the place, but I think she will learn soon.

--I don't think it is correct work.

It seems to really be improving her cantering and ability to collect a bit on the long lines.....

--I don't think this kind of work helps the horse to develop or progress in dressage. The steps are too irregular, uneven, figity, the back is dropped the neck is tight, the hind legs are out behind the horse, these aren't half steps, aren't piaffe, aren't trot like and won't develop correct musculature. Half step work is frst is the rhythmic and quick hind leg, this work is slowing the hind legs down aqnd becoming less and less rhythmic, the biggest problem is stepping back and irregular. It is more important to keep the rhythm and the quick hind leg learning to carry, than to make it so much on the spot, I think that's an error in understanding the progression of the work. The hind legs aren't working correctly, nor is the back. "The horse is getting the idea". What matters is is the idea the right idea.

--I don't believe in doing the work this way. I think it should be done progressively, not like this.

[keana]

Because she is in a halter?

--No.

Or you feel like stretching is bad?

--I do not feel stretching is bad. No one who has done any dressage with any decent instructor is going to be against the principle of stretching. I don't actually see any correct stretching here, though.

you don't like half steps? or me doing half steps???

--I use half steps extensively. I think they are great. A very powerful training tool. But these aren't half steps.

--I am commenting because the horse is not doing the half steps correctly. I don't have anything against you doing half steps, but these are not half steps. From what I see here, I don'[t think you understand the principles behind half steps or what they are.

She does it more correctly in a bit and when we have room we are much more forward....

--I don't think that's the problem. I think it's more fundamental than that.

I was way to tight in her face.

--I don't think that's the problem. More fundamental than that.

But I seen a few "trys" that makes me think she is understanding the idea, don't run me over and have a reaction, she don't know what reaction she should have right now and is all over the place, but I think she will learn soon.

--I don't think it is correct work.

It seems to really be improving her cantering and ability to collect a bit on the long lines.....

--I don't think this kind of work helps the horse to develop in dressage.

I'll put up a video of her collecting a little and see if you can help us with it.

--I'm not comfortable doing that. This is all I'm writing about it. You are totally convinced this is good, so are most of the people here, you will all reinforce each other, clearly you're really into it and you think it's great. Anything I say to the contrary, will just piss you off. I'm just setting myself up to get picked on and you won't change anything you're doing, so why should I bother?

--Yes, the horse is 'getting the idea'. Unfortunately the idea is the wrong idea. The horse is not doing half steps. These are not half steps. The work is incorrect. The back is dropped, the neck is tight (it is tight because the horse isn't muscled up to do the work), the hind legs are pushed out behind her, she does not have the muscle in her back or hind quarters to do the work correctly, she is taking uneven, disunited, irregular, fidgity steps that are not piaffe, and also are not half steps, and are not trotlike, and are not a part of classical dressage, and do not lead to progression in dressage.

--In the half step work, the most important thing first is to establish a big forward step of the hind legs. That is not being done here, this work is backwards, this is trick training, teaching the horse to figet his legs in an uneven, disunited rhythm that is not a trot, and being a trot is the #1 thing that the half steps have to be. There is no foundation or preparation in stages, which makes the difference between a trick and dressage. This is not a matter of this being 'the first stages', the first stages don't look like this. First comes rhythm and that it is trotlike, neither are found here. The very important first part of the half step when first teaching it, is that it is forward with a big powerful swinging step of the hind leg, that it is hardly different from the trot. That is what makes the half step of any value. For example, one goes from the collected walk into just 1-2 quick, strong steps of trot, where the hind legs push and carry, and then walk again, that is one exercise. It is a gradual building exercise, and does not start like this.

--My suggestion, respectfully, is to work with a dressage instructor who will teach you how to lay a foundation for the upper levels, by first doing the lower levels correctly, developing the horse's muscles, and then moving forward with each progressive step. The results you get are a lot more satisfying, and lengthen the horse's riding career and soundness.

Thanks for your reply, your right there was no stretching in the viedo becuase the work was not correct, sense thats all your going to say I will not look for a reply. and I agree at this point it's not half steps, I'm not totally convinced this is good, but I do hope it will lead to something that is, and I will change what I am doing, there is always hope for impovement :)

I will disagree with you on this....

"the neck is tight (it is tight because the horse isn't muscled up to do the work"

I don't feel like that is true, she is fit enough to do half steps... and can balnce weight on her hind legs very easily on her own she don't need any help from me.

I just have to ask it of her correctly and reward her for her heart.

"I don't think you understand the principles behind half steps or what they are."

That maybe true, but I feel like I understand what Jane is saying and even if we never get to half steps that would please you I will of had fun playing with my horse and learning for my mistakes.

"In the half step work, the most important thing first is to establish a big forward step of the hind legs. That is not being done here"

I have done that and I will go back to doing that. that is very helpful and probably one of the reasons she is not thinking as forward becuase we skipped this....

Thanks for taking the time to reply I know it takes a lot of time and I will reread every thing you said and take it to heart :)

[keana]

Well, your horse is trying very hard to figure out what you want. She is showing a little bit of anxiety, which is normal for learning a new and complicated idea.

I think you are on the right track with her. She has the idea you want her back feet to keep moving, even though you do not have much room, you should at this point be letting her move forward a little bit as you work the piaffe otherwise, you loose any collection she can offer, which currently is not too much (see how far under the body the original grey horse's feet are compared to yours?) The only way to get collection is for your horse to continue to develop properly and continue to think "forward" even as you bring her piaffe onto the spot.

Now, collection takes a lot of strength. Believe it or not, one of the best ways to develop that strength in my opinion and experience is "long trotting" It is not really a "trail of tears" head set as much as a neck that is pushed up at the base creating a thick triangular muscle in front of the wither, the trot is PUSHING forward, not running or rushing. That is something you have to feel, no way to tell over a computer screen. I let my horse decide on the speed of this trot and try to keep at it for a 1/4mi to 1mi, then some breaks - walk on loose rein. It has made a world of difference to the little guy I am teaching piaffe to.

As far as rhythm of the piaffe: keep moving forward and cue with your whip rhythmically, that will help. When she figures it out, muscles up and gains confidence in her new skill, the rhythm should improve.

One last thought, I would not ask so many repetitions nor so many steps - it is hard work. Get a correct responce and quit while you are ahead. If you wait until she is maxed out, she is too tense to really connect the quit with positive.

I usually quit after 3 attempts (good or bad)or sooner if I get a really good one to start with. The horse needs time to "process", his body is tired and tired horses don't put out 100%+ effort mentally or physically. It is a recipe for bad habits to start.

Best of luck with your girl, you seem to be doing well.

Thanks so much for taking the time to write out a reply!


Yes we do a lot of what I think of as working trot on the long lines, and I know this type of work can be tiring one reason I like to work on long lines lots of walking and jogging for me!

I use to do endurance and the trot is the best gait as it works the whole horse....

I did work a bit too long, but there was a lot of breaks, I edited out. we would play for a bit then I would put her up and come back out again.

We have also been doing a lot of halt to trot transition work, which seems to be helping her.

I will work on more forward thats for sure!

Thanks for your reply.

[stryder]

But if you watch Richard hinrich work in hand he has the horses go back then move forward into piaffe..... so he uses the back up as a tool teaching piaffe, I'm not trying to do that...

Backing helps bring the horse's hind legs under him, and supples the haunches. It's a good thing. When I work in hand, we may float between forward and backward until we come to piaffe.

A steady rhythm at this point is a good thing. You can march, cluck, kiss, swing the whip and tap intermittently but with rhythm. The horse will prefer to move rhythmically. You should help.

Always, always use a light hand. Upward, not back.

[PiaffeDreams]

A few points:

Collection is gathering the forward energy. Think more forward with this horse. She is on the right track and mentally in a very good place about it. But, at this time she's lifting her legs in place rather than collecting.

Yes, you are pulling back on the lead. Since you watch Richard Hinrichs video, notice (and I believe he stresses this in the book) that he is very clear on keeping his arm straight and positioned at the jaw. I think of locking my elbow... then if the horse is advancing past my hand I can choose to either step backwards to give the horse room to come more forward or give a half-halt to ask him to sit more. Even in a halter you can be very specific about this. Personally, I don't see a big problem with introducing some of the idea in the halter. I do my initial work with the lunging cavesson so as not to get into the mouth particularly if the horse will be apt to lean or pull.

Then imagine your restraining aids a bit like a dustpan. You collect the dust in the pan by pushing the particles forward from your broom, not by shoving the dustpan back at the dust. Collect her forward energy by moving down your fenceline. Back away from her. Make simple transitions from trot to halt.

Backing first when done correctly helps because it establishes a diagonal pair..... repeated... when done correctly as a proper rein-back is stepped diagonally.

Be disciplined. The levade looks cool, but it will bite you in the back side later on! There is a saying, "don't step over a dollar to pick up a nickel" Active hind legs that continue to think forward is worth more than a horse that props up in front. ;)

Further discipline... check your training scale. You won't always keep all the ingredients all the time, but the general flow of your work should stay true to that natural progression. ie: you may start with excellent contact and as the horse first tries to make quicker steps behind will get behind your hand a little. You carefully reward the efforts of quick steps, but diligently take your focus back to developing good connection. Same with the rhythm, which you noted.... she tries a bit hard at times and gets out of rhythm... go back to the basic concept and re-establish, then attempt the more difficult piece again. Pretty soon, the horse will be able to maintain the rhythm and you can insist on it.

[keana]

Backing helps bring the horse's hind legs under him, and supples the haunches. It's a good thing. When I work in hand, we may float between forward and backward until we come to piaffe.

A steady rhythm at this point is a good thing. You can march, cluck, kiss, swing the whip and tap intermittently but with rhythm. The horse will prefer to move rhythmically. You should help.

Always, always use a light hand. Upward, not back.

I can see that the in the way he does it becuase the horse is collected and going forward nicely, and float is a great way of putting it. thats what it looks like when his horses are doing between forward and backward.

I will, I see her trying to move rhythmically and me preventing it on the video.:no:

Thanks for the tip, i think that will really help.

[stryder]

float is a great way of putting it. thats what it looks like when his horses are doing between forward and backward.



It's kind of like balancing a stick upright in the palm of your hand. (Or a baseball bat) When it's perfectly balanced, you move it backward or forward very easily. It's light. That's the feeling in my hand when my sweet mare is collected and balanced. She's just right there, ready to move with me. Very light.

What you are attempting to do is very simple, but it isn't easy. When you get it, see if you can be lighter. Your horse will have to concentrate, so reward as attention span develops. You are reaching into her mind, as well as developing muscle.

Good luck, and have fun.

[keana]

A few points:

Collection is gathering the forward energy. Think more forward with this horse. She is on the right track and mentally in a very good place about it. But, at this time she's lifting her legs in place rather than collecting.

Yes, you are pulling back on the lead. Since you watch Richard Hinrichs video, notice (and I believe he stresses this in the book) that he is very clear on keeping his arm straight and positioned at the jaw. I think of locking my elbow... then if the horse is advancing past my hand I can choose to either step backwards to give the horse room to come more forward or give a half-halt to ask him to sit more. Even in a halter you can be very specific about this. Personally, I don't see a big problem with introducing some of the idea in the halter. I do my initial work with the lunging cavesson so as not to get into the mouth particularly if the horse will be apt to lean or pull.

Then imagine your restraining aids a bit like a dustpan. You collect the dust in the pan by pushing the particles forward from your broom, not by shoving the dustpan back at the dust. Collect her forward energy by moving down your fenceline. Back away from her. Make simple transitions from trot to halt.

Backing first when done correctly helps because it establishes a diagonal pair..... repeated... when done correctly as a proper rein-back is stepped diagonally.

Be disciplined. The levade looks cool, but it will bite you in the back side later on! There is a saying, "don't step over a dollar to pick up a nickel" Active hind legs that continue to think forward is worth more than a horse that props up in front. ;)

Further discipline... check your training scale. You won't always keep all the ingredients all the time, but the general flow of your work should stay true to that natural progression. ie: you may start with excellent contact and as the horse first tries to make quicker steps behind will get behind your hand a little. You carefully reward the efforts of quick steps, but diligently take your focus back to developing good connection. Same with the rhythm, which you noted.... she tries a bit hard at times and gets out of rhythm... go back to the basic concept and re-establish, then attempt the more difficult piece again. Pretty soon, the horse will be able to maintain the rhythm and you can insist on it.

Thank you, for your reply,

You took a lot of time to write a well thought out and helpful one.

I will be disciplined.

Which mean no more work at home where we don't have room to trot or let her move forward to develop good connection and rhythm .

I will print all this out so I can keep it.

Thanks again.

[ideayoda]

Alot of comments. First, no hind bandages. Second, you need to know (be instructed) about where you touch and what response it engenders. ie on the hindleg, or gaskin, or croup, or even front of the leg. Third, you do not want the horse lower at the beginning, you want to keep lifting in the hh (never backwards, but up and open), so that the horse folds the hindlegs rather than leans on you. Touching a horse on top of the croup gets it to bounce up more (particularly if it is too far forward with the hindlegs).

As to training. First you start with stop/go/stop by merely raising the whip, and ceases then you lower it. Until the horse goes, you hh, the horse takes one or two correct steps. The allowing the circling imho is problematic, even if you know what you are doing.

And if you have to previous taught the horse how to lift leg(s) from touching as well, it is all easier.

You cannot have relaxation w/o rhythm and balance. That is where using rein back helps diagonalize IF you know what you are doing. Be careful that the horse is lightly positioned but not bended in the neck and crooked (so ideally starting with s.r.).

Do NOT (READ NOT) do work in hand next to an open fence (of any kind), it is recipe for DISASTER if the horse kicks out. (And I saw a horse in the hands of a head of the srs break its leg from that scenario about 40 years in CA!)

[goeslikestink]

Thanks for your reply, your right there was no stretching in the viedo becuase the work was not correct, sense thats all your going to say I will not look for a reply. and I agree at this point it's not half steps, I'm not totally convinced this is good, but I do hope it will lead to something that is, and I will change what I am doing, there is always hope for impovement :)

I will disagree with you on this....

"the neck is tight (it is tight because the horse isn't muscled up to do the work"

I don't feel like that is true, she is fit enough to do half steps... and can balnce weight on her hind legs very easily on her own she don't need any help from me.

I just have to ask it of her correctly and reward her for her heart.

"I don't think you understand the principles behind half steps or what they are."

That maybe true, but I feel like I understand what Jane is saying and even if we never get to half steps that would please you I will of had fun playing with my horse and learning for my mistakes.

"In the half step work, the most important thing first is to establish a big forward step of the hind legs. That is not being done here"

I have done that and I will go back to doing that. that is very helpful and probably one of the reasons she is not thinking as forward becuase we skipped this....

Thanks for taking the time to reply I know it takes a lot of time and I will reread every thing you said and take it to heart :)

janes a member of coth

[godoget]

I read the posts before I watched the video. I was really expecting something much worse! I thought you started out with a few good half steps, then the mare started to get frustrated and confused. After that you didn't know what to do and the whole thing fell apart.

Ideayoda's post was exactly what I would expect to hear from my instructor. What you are trying to do involves a lot of nuance: how to hold the rein, how and where to use the whip, how and when to move forward, when to apply pressure and when to release. I don't see how you can read books or posts or watch a dvd and know how to do half steps correctly. You need a knowlegable trainer there with you. Once you get some instruction, you can do the work on your own. You can do more harm than good, if you don't do the work correctly. And if you don't want to do it correctly, then you are just trying to teach you horse a new trick. That's not dressage.

[goeslikestink]

I read the posts before I watched the video. I was really expecting something much worse! I thought you started out with a few good half steps, then the mare started to get frustrated and confused. After that you didn't know what to do and the whole thing fell apart.

Ideayoda's post was exactly what I would expect to hear from my instructor. What you are trying to do involves a lot of nuance: how to hold the rein, how and where to use the whip, how and when to move forward, when to apply pressure and when to release. I don't see how you can read books or posts or watch a dvd and know how to do half steps correctly. You need a knowlegable trainer there with you. Once you get some instruction, you can do the work on your own. You can do more harm than good, if you don't do the work correctly. And if you don't want to do it correctly, then you are just trying to teach you horse a new trick. That's not dressage.

execellent post find a dessage trainer in your area theywill listed wth any club or association/soceity listed or linked through the usef or fei
in uk we have bd bryds bef ef bhs pony club bhs riding clubs, bhs, schools and lviery yards bsja ht etc etc all have listed qualifed trianers and instructions plus theres always what on where as in clinics as you know in local mags and rags

[merrygoround]

I read the posts before I watched the video. I was really expecting something much worse! I thought you started out with a few good half steps, then the mare started to get frustrated and confused. After that you didn't know what to do and the whole thing fell apart.

Ideayoda's post was exactly what I would expect to hear from my instructor. What you are trying to do involves a lot of nuance: how to hold the rein, how and where to use the whip, how and when to move forward, when to apply pressure and when to release. I don't see how you can read books or posts or watch a dvd and know how to do half steps correctly. You need a knowlegable trainer there with you. Once you get some instruction, you can do the work on your own. You can do more harm than good, if you don't do the work correctly. And if you don't want to do it correctly, then you are just trying to teach you horse a new trick. That's not dressage.

Came late to the party! But I agree!

Any exercise in dressage is a preparation for next training effort.

First you need to understand the basics, then you understand that the "tricks" aren't tricks, but an ongoing progression.

[keana]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but it's not like I have not tried to get professional help, I have started horses from the ground up for many years on and off as a living, I prefer to keep horses as a hobby, something to enjoy because of the risks you take.

This horse was a rescue and was not working out for the lady as it was in training and not working out with a trainer as it "had some problems" that was going to take a lot more time then they could afford to pay for and the trainer did not want to "mess with it" the lady did not feel like she could handle the horse on a daily basses when it was home.

Sense I train I was offered this horse for free, I liked her and after she was home found out what the problems where, too many to list... I had a LOT of trouble with this mare, I called two dressage-English trainers who work with starting horses and OTTB's, both said NO once they met her as she would run you over knock into you plus blah blah bah, I set up for a cowboy trainer after I watch him work a young horse on his invite he never showed up looking back it's a good thing as I did not care for how he was handling a mare much more tame then mine,, but I was desparate, That's four trainers folks not including me, My trainer friends wanted to use her in as the star in a BAD horse video as they make and sell training videos but found another horse who would respond better to their program, I was so ready to give up, My friends, all the trainers said sell her...

As what? To who?

Two years I struggled with her with only little break throws into the third year I had a totally new horse it was like a wall she had to protect her self fell down and she is willing to trust me , now she is turning into a wonderful mare to be around, polite, trying, she even likes me, which before she never did, she try's her heart out for me. I don't know what happened in her past but it must of not been pleasant, my guess is someone worked with her harshly and she learned to fight back and people have been scared of her sense, ingraining bad habbits. From the stories I have heard thats sound right.

I am really happy with how far she has come, I went to a dressage trainer ( a good one who is listed), and she was happy to have me, I visited twice, on the last visit she asked what I planed to bring.

I said I had a green mare, she said good, she LOVES working with the young ones.....Then I said she was 15.2 Anglo-Arab mare, she said she does not like mares and that anything under 16 hands was a waste of time and no matter what this mare looked or moved like she would never be looked at twice from the judges becuase of her being arab and she was a waste of my time and money,and she would be happy to take me horse shopping for a "good" horse.

I told her I really liked my mare and wished to use her, she said If I really wanted to bring my mare and try to knock her socks off I was welcome so spend my hard earned money but she has her mind made up........plus I was too big to ride anything under 16 hands for show.

I'm 5'6 165 lbs.

I asked her what about taking lessons on one of her horses... She said she only has green ones going and sells them once they have some shows under their belt and she don't want to use her child's dressage show horse for lessons.

I went to two other list top dressage trainers and one has a short rail dressage ring RIGHT by a busy road, no fence in between, that just don't look safe. not good for a green horse.

The other told me she only takes people who are showing in dressage and wants to make a name in the sport........ The others are way to far I have a very old truck and don't want to get stuck out on the freeway 65 miles from home. Plus every time I call or e-mail I have never gotten a reply back.

So I think it's nice every one says get a dressage instructor...sometimes it's not possible at the moment and I refuse not try new things out if I was I would of gotten no where and would still be looking for trainers to deal with her.

Over the holidays I did get a chance to take two lessons from a dressage trainer, she LOVED my mare And seen no hint of a spoiled horse, only a very willing one that was started correctly. She is on the other side of the USA right now.

So this mare is my learning tool, my teacher, as she has always been, she is a gift, a joy. Will I make mistakes? Yes, will I learn from them...one can only hope.

will she forgive me and try again? Yes, because I have not gave up on her, and because horses are so forgiving. Will she be there showing me my mistakes? Of course that's what makes horses such great teacher's.

Maybe we will never be able to do dressage, our little dressage world for now has rejected us with out even giving us a chance so I have to reach out beyond it.

Maybe I will look back and think what the hell was I thinking? Or maybe I will look back and think I am so glad I did not give up for lack of a knowledgeable trainer to help me in person.

I got into such a state of down in the dumps for months after being told this mare I worked so hard with to over come so much was a piece of crap for the dressage ring just becuase she is small and not a WB, from a listed dressage trainer that I will be very careful about who's words I take to heart, my husband was there as the trainer was telling us this and he seen what it did to me and how unfair it was to talk about a mare she has never seen in this way... but every word will be well thought over..every word has something useful, some bit of knowledge to be gained.

[Jenn2674]

Well, just keep in mind that just because someone says they are a dressage trainer does not make it so. I've never come across what I would consider a real dressage trainer that would dismiss a horse just because it is small. Keep looking though, there is no replacement for a good one.

[stryder]

Keana, check this out:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8454853385490342734

Seldom Seen was 14'2"
Your mare is a giant compared to him!

[keana]

Or the breed?

Well Like I said, I am welcome to bring my mare to this lady, she will willing take my money, we have passed E-mails back and forth a few times and she said her thoughts about my mare are pretty much set but I'm Welcome out any time.

[keana]

Keana, check this out:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8454853385490342734

Seldom Seen was 14'2"
Your mare is a giant compared to him!


Yes, the meeting with that trainer and what was said was beyond rediculous

absurd; preposterous; laughable.... it makes no sense seeing as she herself rides 12 pony stud in shows and brags about what a great dressage horse he is and she herself is breeding her mares to him......... she is thin but as tall as me.

she tried to get me to buy one of his just weaned foals.......
She rambled on for two hours making little sense (to me and my husband )

[godoget]

Since when is 5'6" 165 too big for a 15.3 horse!?

Think of all those poor reining horses that carry grown (sometimes overgrown) men!

I'm not saying you shouldn't work with your horse, but there are a lot less complicated things you can do before you get to half steps.

[keana]

Since when is 5'6" 165 too big for a 15.3 horse!?

Think of all those poor reining horses that carry grown (sometimes overgrown) men!

I'm not saying you shouldn't work with your horse, but there are a lot less complicated things you can do before you get to half steps.


I totally agree and we do work on lots of things and have a long ways to go before she is ready to offer half steps. we will work on transitions in the trot for three months then try again when I feel we have better contact and rhythm.


In this past years work, we have school on it about every two or three months, we do a lot of other work which is our main focus.


She is just a hair under 15.2. did I say she was 15.3? I ment 15.2 if she had shoes on she would be at or a hair over 15.2.

I keep tapeing her hoping she has grown! now this year she is seven, nope I'm stuck. unless I shoe her lol

[class]

wow, how can trainers in bfe montana afford to be so picky about their students? i have a hard time believing that.

[keana]

bfe montana ?

I have no idea what it is like in montana ....... where I live the one thing that helps the one be so picky besides her being very good is her husbands a well known horse vet and he does all the sport horse farms plus she does a lot of out of state clinics.. so she is a very busy woman and only wants students that l do well in the show ring.

I can understand this 16 years ago she was doing her time with trail riders and such.

[SisterToSoreFoot]

I also have trouble believing this woman would reject your business (and your horse) without even seeing you work. If that is true she is probably not much of a professional. Just get on 'net and find another. Having a travelling instructor drive a distance to you would work, or travel to them if you have a trailer. Even if that great instructor is 2 hours away make it work somehow once or twice a month. It's better to pay more for fewer, better lessons than to waste money on more frequent lousy lessons.

I take lessons not because I'm not "good enough" to do it on my own, but because I think I'm a better rider when I am open and engaged with learning myself. Find someone good and make it work! I think the mare is lovely and you owe her that!

[SisterToSoreFoot]

P.S. I went back up and read your post about all the reasons why you can't find a dressage instructor. They sound like excuses to me. Why give up because one snotty woman gave you grief? And can't you just tell the instructor with the ring by the road that you want to work in another ring or in an indoor? You're telling me you exhausted all options for an instructor already? Its sounds to me more like you want to tell yourself you looked for an instructor and failed because you really don't want instruction. That's fine but don't expect that you'll get a correct second or even first level horse out of the deal.

I hate to sound harsh but good instruction will do wonders for your and your horse, and I just think you should commit yourself to finding it. By all means work your horse on your own in the meantime but keep looking for the good of the horse.

[Icecapade]

I totally agree and we do work on lots of things and have a long ways to go before she is ready to offer half steps. we will work on transitions in the trot for three months then try again when I feel we have better contact and rhythm.


In this past years work, we have school on it about every two or three months, we do a lot of other work which is our main focus.


She is just a hair under 15.2. did I say she was 15.3? I ment 15.2 if she had shoes on she would be at or a hair over 15.2.

I keep tapeing her hoping she has grown! now this year she is seven, nope I'm stuck. unless I shoe her lol


lol why!?? the shorter they are the softer you fall!!!

I realize falling isn't the goal but I wouldn't trade my 13+ Arab for nuthing! I can pick stuff up off the ground, I can boldly go where no standard horse sometimes will! My horse thinks he is amazing (yeah for napoleon complex) but he really is so it works... and he looks amazing when he is doing his thing... had some random lady in germany ask about breeding to him just because he is so expressive and simple sucks that space around him... bigger sometimes aint better if they don't have the charisma! ;)

good luck with her, you two seem very dedicated I think you will do great!

[mbm]

bfe montana ?

I have no idea what it is like in montana ....... where I live the one thing that helps the one be so picky besides her being very good is her husbands a well known horse vet and he does all the sport horse farms plus she does a lot of out of state clinics.. so she is a very busy woman and only wants students that l do well in the show ring.

I can understand this 16 years ago she was doing her time with trail riders and such.

i think I know exactly who you are talking about !

re; traniers - i personally think it is better to wait and find a GOOD trainer than work with a bad one. but dont give up - there are traners out there that are low key and educated nd who will work with any decicated student.

and you clearly look dedicated and talented. i was impressed with the work you are doing with your mare. :)

[goeslikestink]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but it's not like I have not tried to get professional help, I have started horses from the ground up for many years on and off as a living, I prefer to keep horses as a hobby, something to enjoy because of the risks you take.

yeah horses are in your blood

This horse was a rescue and was not working out for the lady as it was in training and not working out with a trainer as it "had some problems" that was going to take a lot more time then they could afford to pay for and the trainer did not want to "mess with it" the lady did not feel like she could handle the horse on a daily basses when it was home.

Sense I train I was offered this horse for free, I liked her and after she was home found out what the problems where, too many to list... I had a LOT of trouble with this mare, I called two dressage-English trainers who work with starting horses and OTTB's, both said NO once they met her as she would run you over knock into you plus blah blah bah, I set up for a cowboy trainer after I watch him work a young horse on his invite he never showed up looking back it's a good thing as I did not care for how he was handling a mare much more tame then mine,, but I was desparate, That's four trainers folks not including me, My trainer friends wanted to use her in as the star in a BAD horse video as they make and sell training videos but found another horse who would respond better to their program, I was so ready to give up, My friends, all the trainers said sell her...

well judging by what you said they arnt much of any trianers then are they as a good trianer can take on anything is in good horse person obviously for there dvd they wanted to push forward that they are great at doing the job but when it came down to what i call a proper horse with proer issues they didnt know enough to get the little horse back on track so no i dont think they was worthy of you or your horse




As what? To who?

Two years I struggled with her with only little break throws into the third year I had a totally new horse it was like a wall she had to protect her self fell down and she is willing to trust me , now she is turning into a wonderful mare to be around, polite, trying, she even likes me, which before she never did, she try's her heart out for me. I don't know what happened in her past but it must of not been pleasant, my guess is someone worked with her harshly and she learned to fight back and people have been scared of her sense, ingraining bad habbits. From the stories I have heard thats sound right.


as i re hab horses alot, i can tell you this much its not something that can be cured overnight or in a week or in a month i can tell you from expreince when horses have been deeply tramised be mentally or pysical or both can take years to ovecome and re gain the trust thing as you have found out with this little mar but i will tell you something for nothing those sort give it back 10folds over and are a horse for life with you i know as i have ended up keeping most of the ones that were so bad that theres no way they could have been rehomed my oldest is fogi due to be pts due to old age and health issues catching up with him now hes 39yrs old and i have had that many but the ones that i have re homed are with most of my freinds as having that special care needed some have gone onto bigger things and are of international status



I am really happy with how far she has come, I went to a dressage trainer ( a good one who is listed), and she was happy to have me, I visited twice, on the last visit she asked what I planed to bring.

I said I had a green mare, she said good, she LOVES working with the young ones.....Then I said she was 15.2 Anglo-Arab mare, she said she does not like mares and that anything under 16 hands was a waste of time and no matter what this mare looked or moved like she would never be looked at twice from the judges becuase of her being arab and she was a waste of my time and money,and she would be happy to take me horse shopping for a "good" horse.


not worth piss in a pot then -as not listening to your requirements nor understanding the horse you have
try an event trianer as then you would be getting all three displines in one trianer not only that but dont limit yourself to one set of displine
sometimes helping horses is finding what they are good at and finding what they like
for instance if the horse loves jumping and excells at that and you can see from the ground or on her she enjoys it then encourage that dressage is part of jumping is the key as in the foundation to all displines as its in you flat work triainging and ground manners and how you interact with your horse that will bring the best of her to the forefront
try trec , or pony club or riding horse or riding clubs dont limit yourself to one perticular format but see what esle is out there matches you and your horse caperbilites
this will instill the bond you have with her moreso so use it to an advantage rather than a disadvantage
also let me tell you about vibes as you know horses can pick up on any vibe given by you the human - so if you are saying she not this or that then the horse feels that has a sixth sense what we dont use very often only with we lose our sight or say hearing then our other senses like taste and smell become more apparent as we need to usethem to help oursleves so if you feeling negative then the horse is going to feel that from you
from a vibe from your speach and from your body laungage
speach is from how you say things to the horse or to other people about the horse
horses arrent dumb they like clear directions and clear signals and clear speach
ie no namby pamby baby stuff espcially on ahorse with issues like yours as it wont help
as all it will do is show her lack of confidence
horses in there minds have fear factors 1st is to flee 2nd is to advade you
lack of confidence in any form, riden or handling etc or hesitations or doubts
is a confused signal to the horse------ confusion in there mind is a fear factor

going back to tones of voice if a dog brought you slippers you would praze it
if she poohed on your carpet you would shout and tell it off
this is giving the dog clear signals from your tone of voice whre he stands ie bondaries
its the same for the horse
pat scratch and praaze with good boy type thing dont do sweeties as they will only make a bad behaviour worse by rewarding it
but you hae things in your yard that are natural rewards
the horse has a home a bed grub water hay and feed and a good rounitne
these are rewards in themselves and the horse in your case has worked it out that you mean her no harm as she has these

my point change your attitude towards your horse and think postitive
look at how far shes come and all the good points that you have acheive so far
dont harp on about past but bring her into the future with good vibes and good feeling
if you stay sad she will to
look up and smile and say you know what horse we got an execellent future together dunno what in yet but we here now so le see what we can do and show the doungnuts of the world ( ie trianers and non beleiviers ) we can make it

look to find a driving instructor to as then you can start of by long reining her
to help her become balanced forwards staright plus understand basic commands also helps with top line to


I told her I really liked my mare and wished to use her, she said If I really wanted to bring my mare and try to knock her socks off I was welcome so spend my hard earned money but she has her mind made up........plus I was too big to ride anything under 16 hands for show.

I'm 5'6 165 lbs.

and so shes 15,2hh not 13.2hh and i bet she will work allright for you to


I asked her what about taking lessons on one of her horses... She said she only has green ones going and sells them once they have some shows under their belt and she don't want to use her child's dressage show horse for lessons

shes in for profit and nothing more find someone esle
.

I went to two other list top dressage trainers and one has a short rail dressage ring RIGHT by a busy road, no fence in between, that just don't look safe. not good for a green horse.

The other told me she only takes people who are showing in dressage and wants to make a name in the sport........ The others are way to far I have a very old truck and don't want to get stuck out on the freeway 65 miles from home. Plus every time I call or e-mail I have never gotten a reply back.

So I think it's nice every one says get a dressage instructor...sometimes it's not possible at the moment and I refuse not try new things out if I was I would of gotten no where and would still be looking for trainers to deal with her.

Over the holidays I did get a chance to take two lessons from a dressage trainer, she LOVED my mare And seen no hint of a spoiled horse, only a very willing one that was started correctly. She is on the other side of the USA right now.

So this mare is my learning tool, my teacher, as she has always been, she is a gift, a joy. Will I make mistakes? Yes, will I learn from them...one can only hope.

will she forgive me and try again? Yes, because I have not gave up on her, and because horses are so forgiving. Will she be there showing me my mistakes? Of course that's what makes horses such great teacher's.

Maybe we will never be able to do dressage, our little dressage world for now has rejected us with out even giving us a chance so I have to reach out beyond it.

Maybe I will look back and think what the hell was I thinking? Or maybe I will look back and think I am so glad I did not give up for lack of a knowledgeable trainer to help me in person.

I got into such a state of down in the dumps for months after being told this mare I worked so hard with to over come so much was a piece of crap for the dressage ring just becuase she is small and not a WB, from a listed dressage trainer that I will be very careful about who's words I take to heart, my husband was there as the trainer was telling us this and he seen what it did to me and how unfair it was to talk about a mare she has never seen in this way... but every word will be well thought over..every word has something useful, some bit of knowledge to be gained.


look at my helpful links page might have something useful in there to start you off with

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=178116

[Jane Savoie]

Hi Keana,
This is such a complex subject that it would be difficult to address on a BB...but I'll send you a PM with some thoughts.

[keana]

P.S. I went back up and read your post about all the reasons why you can't find a dressage instructor. They sound like excuses to me. Why give up because one snotty woman gave you grief? And can't you just tell the instructor with the ring by the road that you want to work in another ring or in an indoor? You're telling me you exhausted all options for an instructor already? Its sounds to me more like you want to tell yourself you looked for an instructor and failed because you really don't want instruction. That's fine but don't expect that you'll get a correct second or even first level horse out of the deal.

I hate to sound harsh but good instruction will do wonders for your and your horse, and I just think you should commit yourself to finding it. By all means work your horse on your own in the meantime but keep looking for the good of the horse.

I don't see where I'm giving up?

I go to all the dressage shows in my area.


maybe you missed where I took two dressage lessons last month with a trainer who is under a USDF Gold Medallist and her barn manager. that was here over the haildays, we met at a dressage tack sale hit it off, I went and picked her up (as she had flew in / no car)
round trip 240 miles not counting travel to the indoor.

She loved my mare and thought I had done a great job, she said I could come train with them anytime and she would gladly put me to work with the green horses they got in for training.

I have joined Jane savoie dressage mentor site which I pay for , I have asked Jane a few qustions so far she has said I was right on track, I'm working on a video to send her right now I'm sure I'll get a ear full of all the improvement I can make...... can't wait!

I have talked Thursday to one of the students of the too busy dressage instructor barn, she told me to try again.

so I shot off a E-mail will see, as I know she is good and I can learn a ton from her money well spent....

[keana]

Hi Keana,
This is such a complex subject that it would be difficult to address on a BB...but I'll send you a PM with some thoughts.

Thank you Jane, I agree.


I know your very busy and I just wanted to open the lines for a thoughtful talk about work in hand which don't seem to be the main focus or what this is turning into.

Anything you say will be kept private.

[goeslikestink]

way to go jane,, keana chin up and smile its infectious dont be sad but be positive in all that your doing and i will say again you have achieved a lot and i do know what your asking
remember this each small step builds a huge staircase - the goal is how high up it goes so set small aims small steps to reach that goal good luck and have fun getting there

[stryder]

way to go jane,, keana chin up and smile its infectious dont be sad but be positive in all that your doing and i will say again you have achieved a lot and i do know what your asking
remember this each small step builds a huge staircase - the goal is how high up it goes so set small aims small steps to reach that goal good luck and have fun getting there

double ditto. :)

[keana]

:D

I am staying Very positive!!!!

Thank you:yes:

[JackSprats Mom]

Believe it or not, one of the best ways to develop that strength in my opinion and experience is "long trotting" It is not really a "trail of tears" head set as much as a neck that is pushed up at the base creating a thick triangular muscle in front of the wither, the trot is PUSHING forward, not running or rushing. That is something you have to feel, no way to tell over a computer screen. I let my horse decide on the speed of this trot and try to keep at it for a 1/4mi to 1mi, then some breaks - walk on loose rein. It has made a world of difference to the little guy I am teaching piaffe to.


Can someone elaborate on this please? Such as what is long trotting and what is a 'trail of tears headset'??:confused:

[goeslikestink]

Can someone elaborate on this please? Such as what is long trotting and what is a 'trail of tears headset'??:confused:

pass i dunno sounds like the horse is in control and not the human as the horse is allowed to set the pace