trimming hooves on a pony with no manners

[marta]

small obese pony with little, if any, manners.
i got a call today from a friend whose neighbors are caring for a pony who has had no farrier care in a loong time. his prior owner was a sheep owner and apparently trimmed the pony by knocking him down, laying him out sideways and then trimming his hooves that way!!!! (how did he accomplish that???).
i managed to do LF, almost all of the RF but as soon as i tried even picking up the hinds he just kicked out at me. he also reared, tried biting me (friend had to hold his head to prevent him from taking chunks of my head while i trimmed the fronts).

i found the whole thing unnerving. he's small, i can't use my hoof jack (not sure if he'd let me anyway), i feel like i'm on my hands and knees with my abilities to jump out of the way really constrained by the awkward position i have to assume to trim.
i want to help this little beast b/c his hind feet are terribly overgrown and he's lame at a walk at this point (it appears to be his LH that bothers him most, at this point the toes are so long he's walking on his heel bulbs!!!). i don't want to get hurt in the process. i suggested that they try to clicker train him and see if he catches on quickly enough so that we can get him trimmed. but really at this point, i feel like he should get sedated so we can get this trimming process underway.
i never had this type of problem before:(

just wanted to add that when i say managed to trim the fronts, it means that i started the process. took off a bit and rolled. we're nowhere near where his feet should be but it'll take a little while to get him there (that's if he ever lets me near his feet long enough!).

[Secretariat2]

I'd have the vet out to give him some Dormosedan IV, get him trimmed and then start work on training him to have better manners.

[Penthilisea]

Stocks. Let the little bugger lift all four feet off the ground- You won't care, he'll be safe and secure, and so will you. Once he gets it (ie this doesn;t hurt, its not a big deal) he will be easier to work with loose.

[BornToRide]

Although he may be ill-mannered, a lot of his behavior is probably human made. He probably expected a similar treatment from you, as he received from the last person who trimmed him. Poor guy.

Before sedation, I would consider hobbling him instead, if moving him into a sweat to encourage him to stand still is not an option because of the bad hoof form.

[sid]

It is INCUMBENT upon the owner of every/any horse to be sure it is a good citizen for the vet or farrier that is working upon it.


Shame upon those owners for not doing what they need to do to keep all involved safe to to their "trade".

[chism]

I'd get him trimmed, whatever means necessary..tranq, hobbles..what have you. You need him to be comfortable, then you can work on the training.
A few years ago I bought a PMU yearling that had issues picking up her feet. Once she figured out what I wanted, she'd pick up her fronts, but if you tried to touch her hinds she'd cow kick you. I couldn't walk for a week the first time I unsuspectingly tried to pick up one of her hind feet. :( What I did was work with her with a driving whip, but any long whip will do. I would hold her by the head and touch her hind legs all over. If she kicked out the whip went with her. I didn't hit her with it, just didn't remove it when she kicked. If she stayed still when I touched her with the whip, I would remove it, then give her lots of praise. Once she was ok with being touched all over then I worked on just picking up her feet, then putting them down, again with lots of praise. Then we worked on holding them up while I tapped & rubbed all over them with a hoof brush. In her case...she just didn't understand what I wanted from her, and having her hind legs held made her very nervous. The first time she was trimmed, she didn't like the tickle of the rasp, and she tried to pull her hind legs away but she didn't try to kick & she got better every time.

[sublimequine]

I think I'd tranq him realllll good, get the feet done, then train him. You're not gonna be able to train him much if his feet are that bad, so might as well make some compromises on the first trim just to get him sound-er and more comfortable, then train him from there.

[Thomas_1]

Tell the owner to get him sedated before you work on him again and also tell them to get a trainer so he doesn't have to keep being sedated.

Charge the owners for the privilege of giving you a difficult job.

[ThirdCharm]

Drug him, get his feet done, tell them to hire a trainer or charge them by the hour if you are willing to put manners on him (cotton rope on the hind pasterns, you can manipulate the foot (if not in 'trimming position', at least get it up etc) without being in 'range' and they can kick all they want but its not going away, usually works for me).

How small IS the pony? The only ponies I haven't been able to use a hoof jack on are minis.... I do quite a few Smalls....

Jennifer

[TampaBayEquine]

I agree with chemical restraint, although that sounds like it may be a bit of an adventure itself.

IF he is as lame as you describe, it may also be quite painful for him to stand/weightbear in the positions you require to get the job done.
(and this is likely in addition to the defensive manuvers he had already mastered!)

Ideally, you should request that the owner have their vet meet you to sedate the little monkey so you can get the bulk of the work done. It is kinder and safer for everyone involved. Reccomend he gets some remedial training in the next 4-6 weeks! :D

Good Luck!

[Tree]

I've met some ponies like this and it took a lot of patience and understanding.

If this one was knocked down to have its feet trimmed, well, that was hardly a 'nice' introduction or way to be treated. So I could well understand the pony's behavior and would work really hard to show him it wasn't going to be that way if I was doing his feet. I'd have to prove it to him for as long as he felt it was necessary.

I trimmed a mini that would bite, rear, kick, lean and whatever else he could think of doing to try to get out of having his feet done. I had been told that the previous hoof care professional (a farrier), had snubbed him, hog tied him before to get his feet done. Little wonder he acted up so much. He probably thought ALL hoof people were the same. I proved to him that that isn't true.

The only drugged animal I trimmed was a horse that hadn't been worked with at all and was 4 years old and although nice, just simply needed hoof care before he was fully prepared.

Maybe you can have this pony cross-tied and/or muzzled (grazing muzzle or the like) so you won't have to worry about being bit or head butted. As far as kicking goes, know your safety zones so you can get him used to having his feet picked up/handled without the risk of being hit by the hooves. I've learned not to run my hand down the backs of hind legs if it's a kicker. You run your hands down the fronts of the legs with those types. That way if they kick, your hand and arm isn't in the zone.

But you do really need to be patient and understanding of these sorts and they'll come around and realize you're different and are no threat. It's better if they aren't drugged so they're sober and fully conscious of what's going on.

Good luck and hope it works out for the best!

[pema]

That being said, one has to consider other, less dominant and forceful methods for getting this pony to feel comfortable with trimming. I really feel that starting with sedation is a mistake.
Horses that don't cooperate fail to do so because they either don't know how or because they are afraid of having their feet handled or of the farrier himself.
It pays to look at this and all behavioral situations from the horse's point of view. There is ALWAYS a reason for "bad" behavior. As their humans, it's our job to figure out the most humane and kindest way to eliminate this behavior and gain trust.
Fear of pain, confinement, and fear of pain are great motivators for "bad" behavior. Think of how to eliminate the fear and you are more than halfway there.
Linda Tellington-Jones teaches many ways to eliminate fear and instill trust between horse and handler.
There is a simple procedure one can use (with a dressage whip or her "wand") to give the horse (or pony) to give greater awareness of legs and feet, calm the horse and allow him to stand for the farrier. No dominance, no violence, no drugs. Simply stroking the legs not being worked on while holding the horse on a lead, combined with tapping the hooves and leg stroking during sessions away from the farrier can work wonders. I have had this work with both a young horse and an older large draft mare who leaned and yanked her hind leg away dangerously.
Check out this method if you want to learn how to accomplish fear-free farriery and start to gain your pony's trust for all your pursuits together.

[TampaBayEquine]

Starting with sedation is not a mistake.

The OP has explained that the pony is lame and is so overdue that it is walking on his heel bulbs. That alone is painful and stresses the superficial digital flexor tendon, the deep digital flexor tendon , the suspensory ligament as well as the DIP joint at the barest of minimums. This would make even a kind horse uncomfortable! Forcing the pony to weightbear abnormally will cause further discomfort and re-inforce that trimming is a painful procedure.

The idea is to sedate the pony to get the bulk of the uncomfortable work done in the most comfortable way possible. THEN spend all day everyday training him. ;)

[shakeytails]

If a lip chain (with an experienced operator on the other end) doesn't work, I'd go with drugs.

[Thomas_1]

That being said, one has to consider other, less dominant and forceful methods for getting this pony to feel comfortable with trimming. That's how it should have been but you are where you're at.

Bad owner and untrained pony: that's been roughly handled and neglected and is in pain and not at all comfortable with the experience.

I really feel that starting with sedation is a mistake. Wrong! Do you actually know how sedation works or what it does? Sedation will help the pony to relax, relieve anxiety and overcome fear . Sedatives also act to remove memory of the experience afterwards. If accompanied by appropriate good analgesia then the pony will be altogether more comfortable having it's feet done.

First priority is to get the acute situation sorted and we hear the pony is obese, in pain and has been neglected. All a recipe for laminitis and pedal bones rotating and sinking through the sole of the foot and then ultimately a death sentence for a pony.

Because the horse is sedated doesn't mean that you then indulge in "rough stuff". The sedation is merely to help to calm the pony and reduce the stress and also in turn, to keep the farrier safe.

Horses that don't cooperate fail to do so because they either don't know how or because they are afraid of having their feet handled or of the farrier himself. No sh** Sherlock!

The OP told us in the opening posting why the pony was expressing it's opinion on this matter.

Add pain to that equation and no wonder it's not happy.

Fear of pain, confinement, and fear of pain are great motivators for "bad" behavior. Think of how to eliminate the fear and you are more than halfway there.

Linda Tellington-Jones teaches many ways to eliminate fear and instill trust between horse and handler. Duhhhh....... so sedation and analgesia for the short term and to get the job done and to help the pony AND the farrier to do that job and THEN a trainer for the long term.

In these circumstances I personally also fancy administering a smack on the back of the head for the owner who got the pony in this postion in the first place though I'm not sure what Linda Whosey-Whatsit would make of that!

Training a horse or pony to stand for the farrier is a simple and fundamental basic job. So much so that it irritates the heck out of me when owners don't do it.

It's never stressful for the animal and the handler need never be in danger.

Retraining an equid that has been spoilt and/or untrained in the first place is much harder and depending on the experience and the wit and opinions of the animal could take quite a bit of time and be very dangerous for those trying to pick up remedial retraining.

In the meantime the job needs doing.

[marta]

i'm hoping they'll agree to sedate.
the situation is complicated and the person who needs to be slapped on the back of their head, per thomas' suggestion, is not taking care of the pony at the moment. however, if by some chance the pony is returned to that person, not only will i be smacking them on the head but i will get every state and local agency and media involved and that's a promise.:mad:

he was kept in a pasture with sheep for a year and the rings on his hooves make me think that laminitis already happened some time ago:( hopefully without too much permanent damage.

the folks who are taking care of him at the moment are not horse people and are learning as they go. their daughter (16 years old) takes lessons and knows a bit more but it's really up to the adults to make decisions in this situation.

i can't stop thinking about that fat little brat. that'll teach me to get involved in these "rescue" situations...sigh.

[BornToRide]

I find that almost all new horses I trim are at first somewhat apprehensive to varying degrees, like they are expecting to be man-handled or something. By the second trim it is usually gone. :)

[BuddyRoo]

Sounds to me like what you've got here is a great opportunity to educate some folks who are willing to do what needs to be done--if only someone will tell them what that IS.

I know it's a little extra work, but for your own safety (there is a payoff for you here down the road), I would offer to go over and show them exactly HOW to work with the pony EVERY SINGLE DAY for a few minutes on standing, picking up feet, etc.

If they can invest just 10 minutes a day at least 4 or 5 days per week, your job should get a LOT easier.

Other thing I would suggest initially is doing more frequent trims for awhile. Should help you get the pony back on track by doing a little at a time more often AND give the pony some practice.

Good luck.

I did a little rotten mini last year that wanted to rear and strike and kick. There really wasn't any time for training that day...but he needed to get done. I employed the ol' shoulder-check-pin-to-the-wall option. Made me glad I'd played soccer in my day. LOL

[marta]

this pony is strong! he reared and slammed his knee into my gf's thigh (she was holding him). i don't think i could man handle him if i wanted to. not to mention that he just makes his little leg so stiff it's impossible to bend!

i definitely hear you about trimming a bit at a time. that's what i did yesterday. i really wish he'd let me do a little work on his hinds. they're so painfully long.

next time i'll go to see him i'll bring hay stretchers and my clicker and see how quickly he catches on.

i don't even want to know how this man managed to get this pony on the ground and immobile long enough to trim??? what the f?*&k is that??? my stomach hurts when i think of what that pony had to go through with that scumbag.

m

[Auventera Two]

I can think of 4 horses I trim that were "man handled" before I got to them and they had a LOT of fear and misbehavior issues. One mare had been lip chained to the point she reared and flipped over backwards. I don't have any trouble now, but it took about 3 trims for them to "see the light" and realize I wasn't going to man handle them, and I'd do only what they were comfortable with.

I didn't use sedation in any of these cases, but whether or not you do depends on your own comfort level, the owner's comfort level, and the degree of danger presented by the horse. I trim a donkey who used to lay down and stick her feet in the air, shut her eyes and go off to donkey la-la land. She doesn't do that anymore, but it took a long time for her to get over it. But she did. I think the secret is to never EVER lose your temper. Just do what you can, stop when the horse says stop, and then try again.

I also found that STARTING with a hind leg seems to help. I don't know why, but on difficult horses I go to the hind legs first, then do the front legs and they're happier with it. Just don't get kicked.

Another trick I used was to only trim part of the foot, put it down then go to another foot. If the horse thinks you're going to hold the same foot up "forever" then they get antsy and nervous. But just pick it up, trim the frog and bars, put it down and go to the next foot, then make the circuit again. Not having to hold it up more than 30 seconds at a time is a big help on some of them.

Also always try to put the foot down BEFORE the horse kicks or jerks it away. Don't get into the cycle of fighting. Pick up the foot, do something quickly then put it down, scratch the horse, goooood booooy!! and go to the next foot. Set the horse up for success, and reward him for that success. It's way too much to ask a horse like this to hold the foot up for a full 5 minutes while you trim everything. You have to break it down into teenie little digestible 30 second blocks, and put the foot back down before the fight breaks out.

What I always do for the donkey is to feed her a couple of peppermints, pet her, let her sniff me all over, then start trimming. Some horses just don't know who you are, they don't have any kind of relationship with you, and here is a stranger jerking a good leg out of from under them! Take time to develop raport with the horse first. On one REALLY difficult mare, I took her for a walk around the farm and talked to her. She was so scared of hoof work. So we just walked and talked and I gave her treats. She learned I was her friend before I asked her to do something terrifying for me.

Explain to the owner that these really hard situations TAKE TIME. They should be prepared for the visit to take 2x as long as it should, or more.

And ALWAYS be compassionate. Put yourself in the horse's position. Imagine how scared you are at the dentist office, or when you're waiting for that doctor to call you back with test results. Imagine your first roller coaster ride, or job interview. Your horse is feeling that same fear and apprehension so be compassionate and understanding.

[Auventera Two]

this pony is strong! he reared and slammed his knee into my gf's thigh (she was holding him). i don't think i could man handle him if i wanted to. not to mention that he just makes his little leg so stiff it's impossible to bend!

i definitely hear you about trimming a bit at a time. that's what i did yesterday. i really wish he'd let me do a little work on his hinds. they're so painfully long.

next time i'll go to see him i'll bring hay stretchers and my clicker and see how quickly he catches on.

i don't even want to know how this man managed to get this pony on the ground and immobile long enough to trim??? what the f?*&k is that??? my stomach hurts when i think of what that pony had to go through with that scumbag.

m

If you start man handling this horse, things will escalate out of control. Use brains, not braun. Two geldings I trim are in their 20s and their ENTIRE lives they were lip chained and snubbed to the wall for hoof trimming. They were just flat horrible to the point of rearing and striking. And they would NOT pick up a leg for nothing. They'd thow all the weight onto the one leg you wanted to pick up, and would bite at the owner. They had become SO DEFENSIVE from years of mis-handling at trimming time. It was just plain stupid and useless. I've been doing them for almost 2 years and after the first few trims I had no more trouble with them.

[marta]

no intention here of manhandling him. i just mentioned that even i wanted to he's a brawny little one and wouldn't allow it. that's why it's beyond my comprehension how the owner was able to knock him to the ground to trim him...:mad:

he did pretty well on his LF. i think part of the problem with the RF was that the LH looks like it's causing him a lot of pain. but he won't let me go near the hinds. just a flat out no. couldn't even get my hand down to his pastern.

well, lets hope these folks are willing to do what it takes.

[BornToRide]

I very much agree. I think this pony needs more understanding (and some retraining) than anything. It sounds to me like he's fighting for dear life thanks to past experiences.

[Auventera Two]

Marta - you have your hands full! :( I'd use Dermosedan and just get the feet trimmed. Don't use ACE, for sure. But then maybe the owner can start working with a soft rope around the hind foot to pick it up. Or tapping it when a long/stiff dressage whip. Not hitting, just a gentle tap tap tap until the horse gets so annoyed he makes any effort to move the foot. Stop the tapping, reward profusely, do something else for a few minutes then repeat the exercise.

[Penthilisea]

I think a nice wee dose of meds + stocks for the first time will allow him to get the medically nessecary trim he so clearly needs with no additional damage to him or the trimmer!

I can't understand why people don't use stocks more often, when well designed and used correctly they are a great tool for the unhandled horse to learn safely about new things, while keeping the handler safe (or at least more safe).

[sublimequine]

no intention here of manhandling him. i just mentioned that even i wanted to he's a brawny little one and wouldn't allow it. that's why it's beyond my comprehension how the owner was able to knock him to the ground to trim him...:mad:

he did pretty well on his LF. i think part of the problem with the RF was that the LH looks like it's causing him a lot of pain. but he won't let me go near the hinds. just a flat out no. couldn't even get my hand down to his pastern.

well, lets hope these folks are willing to do what it takes.

I don't think the owner was really trying to be nasty or mean to the pony when he had him down on the ground to trim. If this is his first horse, and has otherwise raised livestock, he might not've realized horses aren't trimmed like other livestock are. Sheep are kinda pushed onto their butts to be trimmed, and cows often use this big crane sort of thing, looks like this:

http://www.stonyfield.com/weblogarchives/BovineBugle/Pedicure%202%20August%202005.JPG

The cows aren't even sedated for it, they just kinda hang out. It's funny to watch. :lol:

So like I said, he probably assumed horses were given similar treatment to get the feet done. I think it's more an ignorance thing, rather than an intentional "hey let's pin this pony down! :mad: " thing.

[marta]

perhaps you're right.
we're in the horse country here and his neighbor across the street has horses so you'd think they'd try to educate themselves a bit about horsekeeping before acquiring the pony.
they bought this poor thing for $300 last year and they want to sell it w/ a profit this year... he can barely walk. they should be glad that someone is willing to take it off their hands at this point:(

[theoldgreymare]

I feel for you.......we "adopted" a BLM donkey from someone who could not longer care for him. He had slipper foot all around when we got him and was sooo uncomfortable. He was only being trimmed twice a year.......now I know why. Striking, rearing and kicking violently. Have you ever seen a hobbled donkey fly? I have!

Now he gets done every 6 weeks thanks to a lovely cocktail of Dormo and Xylazine. We are working on improving his manners and relieving his anxiety and go with the lowest does first and see how he is behaving before putting more on board. He will continue to be sedated until I no longer feel he is a danger to my farrier or myself. At this late stage in his life, I am not sure that he will ever behave without his cocktail.

As a farrier, you have every right to INSIST that the client have this pony sedated until they have worked him past this and he is no longer a danger to trim. These people have a lot of homework ahead of them. For your sake, I hope they get it done!

[marta]

poor donkey:( i could see this pony acting that way. just based on his rearing efforts while i was trimming him.
well, we haven't heard from the folks who are caring for him so i'm not sure what they decided to do. without getting into details i have to say the situation is upsetting and i regret going to there to begin with b/c now i can't get the image of this lame pony with overgrown feet out of my head:(

[Christa P]

I don't think the owner was really trying to be nasty or mean to the pony when he had him down on the ground to trim. If this is his first horse, and has otherwise raised livestock, he might not've realized horses aren't trimmed like other livestock are. Sheep are kinda pushed onto their butts to be trimmed, and cows often use this big crane sort of thing, looks like this:

http://www.stonyfield.com/weblogarchives/BovineBugle/Pedicure%202%20August%202005.JPG

The cows aren't even sedated for it, they just kinda hang out. It's funny to watch. :lol:

So like I said, he probably assumed horses were given similar treatment to get the feet done. I think it's more an ignorance thing, rather than an intentional "hey let's pin this pony down! :mad: " thing.


I think it was on Animal Planet that I saw a segment showing Mustangs being trimmed this way.

Christa

[cssutton]

Sedate him. Get him trimmed.

Then work on the training.

That said, in spite of the fact that we like to think all horses/ponies are trainable, it is not necessarily so.

I had a horse, a 16.3 plus TB that loved for you to pull his mane, tolerated clippers in his or anywhere else with no complaints, hauled in a trailer thousands of miles and never made a sound, but would try his best to kill the farrier.

He caused three to quit.

Only a combination of Rompom and torweegeesic (I can't spell either and don't have either on hand anymore since the horse died) could make him manageable for the farrier.

For 11 years, that horse would do anything I asked of him but stand for the farrier.

I could pick up all fours, use the hoof pick, pull nails when I wanted to remove a shoe, but the minute the farrier started trimming, rasping, driving nails, etc., he turned into a wicked monster.

I had him X-rayed. Results negavive.

He was the typical tender footed TB, but no more so than many others I have owned.

Say all you want about petting and treats and whatever, there are some that just will not be shod without a fight.

So the bottom line is: Do what you need to do and don't worry about whether the "poor little pony" has his feelings hurt.

CSSJR

[lonewolf]

I totally agree with css. Get the owners to call a vet, get a dose of sedation, and then trim the pony as kindly and gently as possible. It won't hurt the little bugger in the long run (it may actually teach him to get used to it without being able to panic), and it is absolutely not worth you or your handlers getting hurt over.

If the owners are capable, give them a little 'homework' to do with the pony to teach him to get used to having his feet handled. Gradually you can try less drugs as it seems safe. But don't get hurt over this.