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equusrocks
Jan. 9, 2009, 01:33 PM
Long story short (well, most of it is on the giveaway forum) I "acquired" a couple German Shepard dogs a week or so ago, and am trying to put a little weight on them.

These are big dogs and a lot to feed, any suggestions for a "decent" food that isn't going to cost $50/week (right now each is getting 6 cups/day of Nutro Max Large Breed)??? My grandmother is 'sponsoring' part of their care but she is on a fixed income and I don't want to ask a fortune from her.

I'd like to send these two off to a new home in good shape...so any suggestions appreciated. :)

Simkie
Jan. 9, 2009, 01:39 PM
Long story short (well, most of it is on the giveaway forum) I "acquired" a couple German Shepard dogs a week or so ago, and am trying to put a little weight on them.

These are big dogs and a lot to feed, any suggestions for a "decent" food that isn't going to cost $50/week (right now each is getting 6 cups/day of Nutro Max Large Breed)??? My grandmother is 'sponsoring' part of their care but she is on a fixed income and I don't want to ask a fortune from her.

I'd like to send these two off to a new home in good shape...so any suggestions appreciated. :)

Please see this thread: http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=183751


FWIW, my 2 70 lb Ridgebacks go through about $50 worth of Innova in 3 or 3.5 weeks, and they are VERY active. One gets 2 c/day and the other gets 3 c/day. The regular green Innova bag has the highest kcal/cup that I've been able to find, which means you feed a whole lot less of it. It's an excellent top quality food.

HydroPHILE
Jan. 9, 2009, 02:07 PM
Costco's Dog Food is manufactured by Diamond. Based on its ingredients, it looks pretty good. Only my EPI German Shepherd ate as much food as you are feeding them now. They shouldn't be eating 6 cups of food...even if you want to put some weight on them.

Do a google search for a recipe for "Satin Balls." They're not meant to be fed as meals, but they help with weight gain.

Sheppies have a tendency to have barley allergies. If you notice their ears getting a little stinky, rubbing their face after eating, etc. they might have food allergies (just a random Sheppie tidbit).

BuddyRoo
Jan. 9, 2009, 02:16 PM
Usually, the higher quality food you feed, the more nutrient dense it is and therefore you feed less (and less poop to clean up!)

For example, I feed Science Diet Large Breed to my 94# very active lab. I feed 3 C a day. Total. A 35# bag costs me around $26-30 depending on where I get it and lasts me a month or so I believe.

My friends have a similar size dog, same breed, same activity level. They feed Pedigree and feed 8 C a day.

Better food is usually cheaper in the long run because A) you don't feed as much and B) good nutrition is a cornerstone of preventative care.

jherold
Jan. 9, 2009, 02:24 PM
I feed Diamond Extreme Athelete to my Shepherd. It's 32% protein and 28% fat. First two ingredients are chicken meal and chicken. No corn, wheat etc. He's a typical reluctant eater and very active so I needed to find a food that didn't require him to eat large volumes. He's 85 lbs and gets a 1 lb butter tub full twice a day. (I think that's like 1 1/2 cups so total of 3 cups a day). I think the cost is $32 for a 50lb bag. He looks great and although still lean I don't have to worry about appearing on Animal Cops!

Simkie
Jan. 9, 2009, 02:35 PM
Usually, the higher quality food you feed, the more nutrient dense it is and therefore you feed less (and less poop to clean up!)

For example, I feed Science Diet Large Breed to my 94# very active lab. I feed 3 C a day. Total. A 35# bag costs me around $26-30 depending on where I get it and lasts me a month or so I believe.


Science Diet Large Breed is certainly NOT a high quality food.

One Star (http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=126&cat=all)

Compare to Five Star (http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=2279&cat=all)

HydroPHILE
Jan. 9, 2009, 03:02 PM
We feed Natural Balance AMP. It's dog food for highly actve dogs.

threedogpack
Jan. 9, 2009, 03:07 PM
add carbs to the dog food. Cooked white rice is good, as is cooked pasta. If you add a little canned dog food to it and water, it will help to make it more appetizing.

I feed Pedigree, used to feed Pro Plan, and for about 5.5 cups (I have 7 dogs) I usually add about 1/8 of a cup of canned food thinned with enough water to make it stick to the food. I can make one large can of Iams or Pro Plan last me about 3 days or 6 meals. It's a very cost effective way to feed

BuddyRoo
Jan. 9, 2009, 03:50 PM
Simke, I respectfully disagree. But this whole "anti grains" and "high protein" thing has got lots of people just as wound up as barefoot vs shod and NH or not.

I'm a rep for SD and I stand behind the research. I also worked in an clinic for nearly 10 years with a veterinarian who had his masters in nutrition. So I guess the information I look at or perhaps the way I look at it is different than yours.

But I can appreciate your stance. I hear it a lot. :yes:

equusrocks
Jan. 9, 2009, 04:16 PM
Thanks guys...I was just feeding what was the recommended amount according to the manufacturer...I don't have a Costco anywhere near here, but do have a tractor supply and they carry Diamond and Science diet, along with a bunch of "others". We also have a PetSmart. Our only "independent" petfood company went out of business a few years ago, back when I had dogs of my own. :lol:

Those are petty much my only options as far as suppliers. These dogs are outside 24/7 and are always playing. The previous "owner" was feeding 3-4 cups/day of cheap stuff and they lost weight pretty quickly. I suppose they need to be dewormed also though...but their vet visit isn't for a couple more weeks.

I appreciate all of the feedback guys. I am sort of debating on getting a small dog of my own after these two are gone, so I will hopefully use this info all later.

Oh, I checked out the other thread, what a wealth of info. I ignored it because we didn't have a Costco.

Rhyadawn
Jan. 9, 2009, 04:22 PM
Costco's Dog Food is manufactured by Diamond. Based on its ingredients, it looks pretty good.

My aussies are on this food at the moment. (they were on raw but moving in to my mothers house, she didn't like it) They free feed, but are pretty close to 2 cups for the male and 3 to 4 for my female. They are maintaining weight well with it.

dalpal
Jan. 9, 2009, 05:26 PM
I would agree with the poster that said Science Diet isn't a premium food....it just isn't.

Innova is a great food for helping you put weight on a dog...I would start my research there.

vineyridge
Jan. 9, 2009, 05:36 PM
Thanks guys...I was just feeding what was the recommended amount according to the manufacturer...I don't have a Costco anywhere near here, but do have a tractor supply and they carry Diamond and Science diet, along with a bunch of "others". We also have a PetSmart. Our only "independent" petfood company went out of business a few years ago, back when I had dogs of my own. :lol:

Those are petty much my only options as far as suppliers. These dogs are outside 24/7 and are always playing. The previous "owner" was feeding 3-4 cups/day of cheap stuff and they lost weight pretty quickly. I suppose they need to be dewormed also though...but their vet visit isn't for a couple more weeks.

I appreciate all of the feedback guys. I am sort of debating on getting a small dog of my own after these two are gone, so I will hopefully use this info all later.

Oh, I checked out the other thread, what a wealth of info. I ignored it because we didn't have a Costco.

To my thinking the best cheap dog food available at Tractor Supply is the Diamond Natural Chicken and Rice. Last I looked it was about $26 for a 40 lb bag. My dogs did well on it. But I recently decided to switch to Taste of The Wild just because it is much better, albeit much more expensive, food. The Diamond Natural was actually cheaper than the WallyWorld Maxximum, which is no longer available, and the ingredient list is not TOO scary.

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=932&cat=5

Auventera Two
Jan. 9, 2009, 05:50 PM
Usually, the higher quality food you feed, the more nutrient dense it is and therefore you feed less (and less poop to clean up!)

For example, I feed Science Diet Large Breed to my 94# very active lab. I feed 3 C a day. Total. A 35# bag costs me around $26-30 depending on where I get it and lasts me a month or so I believe.

My friends have a similar size dog, same breed, same activity level. They feed Pedigree and feed 8 C a day.

Better food is usually cheaper in the long run because A) you don't feed as much and B) good nutrition is a cornerstone of preventative care.

I agree that Pedidgree is awful, but so is Science Diet. It's a 1 star food http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/ It's been over-marketed by vets who get free samples up the wazu. Same with Iams. I know way too many dogs who look and feel terrible on Hills products. They are full of empty garbage fillers and grains.

I feed Fromm Four Star (a 5 star food), and love it. The only time I had any problem was when one of my dogs was on Science Diet Z/D Ultra for a year, and he looked like he had one foot in the grave. He lost so much hair it looked like he had mange, yeast infections in the ears, impacted anal glands, and overall just stinky and miserable. It was horrible, but vet recommended so I did it. Back to Fromm and all the problems are gone. I feed 3 big dogs, and yes it's expensive but worth it.

Fromm Classic (3 star) is a lower end formula, but its still a lot better than anything Hills could manufacture. Sorry Buddy Roo, but the "goodness" of Science Diet and Iams was debunked years ago, regardless of how much vets want to push it. :(

The only other I would want to feed is Innova or CORE but it is hard to get around here for one thing, and I am very happy with Fromm, and have no need to switch anyway. You have to special order those two and Fromm is available locally since its manufactured in my state.

Do you ever wonder why horrible cancers are the leading cause of death in dogs??? Look at what we feed them! Good grief. It's common sense, guys. All the byproducts, preservatives, cheap fillers, it's no wonder. And when Hills uses a known carcinogen (in humans) as a preservative in their food, well, run the other way as fast as you can. That's all I'm gonna say because you don't want to hear what I really think! LOL

ponygirl
Jan. 9, 2009, 09:23 PM
I have an 80lb *very* active young adult male dog. I feed him Orijen- the blue bag which, according to the link to the reviews, is a 6 star food. I had no idea. What I do know is that he loves it and he eats about 2 cups a day. The best part, his "business" has very little smell and is literally the size of what you'd expect from a 10lb dog!. :) Another perk to the food is that you buy 9 and the next bag is free.

equinelaw
Jan. 9, 2009, 09:32 PM
My dog has food allergies. He does just fine on Diamond Lamb and Rice and he also does just fine on Ole' Roy Lamb and Rice. I think its the same food.

He is almost 15 and is just getting his first stiffness in is SI area. Never been sick from his food, never been lame, never has flare-ups of his skin like he did on more $$$$ dog foods, great teeth, No tarter, never had an ear infection and doesn't even get fleas.

He is half greyhound and half Pointer. They have a much shorter average life span the 15 years.

He does have fatter tumors, but they do not seem to be killing him.

If he eats the $$$$$ dog food they sell at the $$$$$ store his farts will knock you over. So I stick with what works and I am happy it is cheap. He eats about #50 a month. His picture is in my blog profile and his is about 12 there. He still had such good eyes he didn't need reading glasses!

Guin
Jan. 9, 2009, 10:20 PM
That's a lot of dry stuff. I feed Nutro Lamb and Rice to my big (85 lb) Golden/collie mix, and he gets four cups a day, total (2 in am, 2 in pm). If you're looking to add weight on them, try buying whole-fat cottage cheese or yogurt, or adding a couple of eggs (cooked!) to their food once a day. Eggs are cheap and a fantastic source of healthy protein. You could also look for whatever ground meat is on sale at the store - I can get ground chicken for $2/lb, and sometimes less. Boil it up and add it to their food. I wouldn't try to get weight on them by giving them lots of extra kibble, though.

ETA: You can also add a tablespoon of olive oil or canola oil to their food for some extra healthy calories.

LMH
Jan. 9, 2009, 10:24 PM
A 'overlooked' nice little dog food that packs some calories in Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover's Soul.

I would personally catch wild rabbit with my bare hands before I would feed Science Diet.

caevent
Jan. 9, 2009, 10:35 PM
A lot of good recommendations. I'm also going to suggest Wysong. All organic ingredients, which are graded quality for human consumption (not gonna start eating dog food, but it's nice to know that it's safe!). Good luck with the doggies!:D

CrzyCorgi
Jan. 9, 2009, 10:44 PM
Boy, do I agree that dog food topic carries just as many high running emotions & opinions as the barefoot/shod topic.....

I have to say though, I work in a vet clinic as well and work very closely w/ my boss on the nutrition side of things. First I can tell you that my pets eat the Eukanuba & Iams diets and I love them! I also, as one previous poster said, have looked at a lot of the research and just perfer this diet because of the quality control and research that goes into their products. Saying this, I will also tell you that I keep an open mind and also respect other peoples opinions and preferences as well. There are certainly MANY MANY other good diets out there besides Eukanuba/Iams. Myself, I am not a big fan of the Pedigree, Beneful, Kibbles -n-Bits type diets -- lots of fat and calories and not much else.

Oh & to the poster who said that we in the vet world get "free samples by the wazu" to push the sale, I would love to know where they are b/c they are certainly not in the clinic I'm at. We recommend the diets that we recommend, because we believe in the research and the quality and have seen the results, not just simply $$$$ & free samples (which again do not exist in our clinic :winkgrin:)

pintopiaffe
Jan. 9, 2009, 10:51 PM
well, I know it got pretty well bashed in the other thread, but my big dogs (87, 83 & 80#s) do really, really well on Sam's Club Exceed. It is comparable to Eukanuba--which * *know* is only a "one star." Oh well, they do well on it.

With my anorexic special dog, he got one meal a day of brown rice (cooked) and ground turkey, with a table spoon of Olive Oil, plus Vit E capsules sqeezed out on it. That combo was fairly inexpensive ( I got frozen ground turkey so I didn't have to cook) and he gained weight very nicely on it with no tummy upsets.

I definitely included either yogurt or a good pre-and-probiotic (Dynamite's DynaPro)

I fed him that combo for about a year, and then he was good to go on just the Exceed. <shrugs> He was super sensitive to too much grain, colouring or additives/preservatives... and he did really well on the Exceed.

So no, it's not the best, but it *worked.* ;)

Bluey
Jan. 10, 2009, 08:08 AM
I would agree with the poster that said Science Diet isn't a premium food....it just isn't.

Innova is a great food for helping you put weight on a dog...I would start my research there.

I agree Innova is a great food, but sorry to disagree with you that many other dog foods, including Science Diet are "not good".
Science Diet is all our many dogs, some obedience and later also agility competition dogs over many years had, was the best at that time, kept our old toy poodle in liver failure happy for the last two years of her life.:)

One of our vets is a nutritionist and tells us that today, most of the good dog foods are carefully researched and the ingredients don't matter to a normal dog, their body will process whatever we provide it into what it needs.

Much of the talk today by people like us here is just following very good marketing by companies and magazines that live off making differences sound so important.:p

The reality is that millions of dogs out there, eating all kinds of dog food and other kinds of food have thru centuries and are today doing fine, thank you.
Sure, you may find some local no name company producing some poorly put together cheap dog food with basement quality ingredients, but the national commercial dog companies are very careful to provide a good product with much research behind it and any new research is carefully looked at by their nutritionists and whatever necessary then added to their own rations.

My own little dog came from the breeder with Nutro Ultra.
When that was gone, I tried Solid Gold, Blue, Innova, Science Diet and a few others, as our vet tells us that to change brands occassionally is good, in case one doesn't has a nutrient our dog could use and so the dogs get used to eat different things.
Well, my 9 lb dog, that is not a chow hound, still ate best with Nutro, so that is what she is again getting, for now.

Dogs, like people, are omnivorous and with a varied and basic diet can do well, as long as there are no special problems, like allergies or some organ that is not functioning well, like a bad liver, or a missing enzyme, etc.

Some of the dog foods out there considered tops are like eating a steak and lobster based diet daily.
Sure, it is fine, but not everyone needs to eat that richly all the time.
Pleasant, yes, necessary, no.:)

dalpal
Jan. 10, 2009, 08:57 AM
Boy, do I agree that dog food topic carries just as many high running emotions & opinions as the barefoot/shod topic.....

I have to say though, I work in a vet clinic as well and work very closely w/ my boss on the nutrition side of things. First I can tell you that my pets eat the Eukanuba & Iams diets and I love them! I also, as one previous poster said, have looked at a lot of the research and just perfer this diet because of the quality control and research that goes into their products. Saying this, I will also tell you that I keep an open mind and also respect other peoples opinions and preferences as well. There are certainly MANY MANY other good diets out there besides Eukanuba/Iams. Myself, I am not a big fan of the Pedigree, Beneful, Kibbles -n-Bits type diets -- lots of fat and calories and not much else.

Oh & to the poster who said that we in the vet world get "free samples by the wazu" to push the sale, I would love to know where they are b/c they are certainly not in the clinic I'm at. We recommend the diets that we recommend, because we believe in the research and the quality and have seen the results, not just simply $$$$ & free samples (which again do not exist in our clinic :winkgrin:)

I learned a long time ago that very few vets know anything about nutrition. Have you ever looked at the labels. I will agree that I would feed Eukanuba over Hill's. To give you an example, here's the ingredients on Hill's Reduced Diet...

Note....50.00 for 17 pounds of this food.....

Chicken By-Product Meal, Brewers Rice, Corn Gluten Meal, Powdered Cellulose 18.8% (source of fiber), Chicken Liver Flavor, Soybean Oil, Calcium Sulfate, Potassium Sulfate, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Taurine, Glyceryl Monostearate, Iodized Salt, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Potassium Chloride, preserved with BHT, BHA and Ethoxyquin, L-Carnitine, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), Beta-Carotene.

Please someone explain to me what ingredients in this bag warrant it costing almost 3.00 per pound???????

Here's the same type in the Iams/Eukanuba line......it's 60.00 for 30 pounds...now I ask again, what ingredients make this worth 2.00 per pound. Yeah, I often go in my cabinet and pull out fresh "Ground Whole Grain Sorghum" and put it in my dog's dish. :confused:

Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Chicken By-Product Meal, Ground Whole Grain Barley, Fish Meal (source of fish oil), Dried Beet Pulp (sugar removed), Natural Chicken Flavor, Gum Arabic, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, a source of vitamin E, and Citric Acid), Dried Egg Product, Fructooligosaccharides, Carboxymethylcellulose, Potassium Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Brewers Dried Yeast, Sodium Hexametaphosphate, Salt, Flax Meal, Choline Chloride, DL-Methionine, Chromium Tripicolinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Beta-Carotene, Zinc Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, L-Carnitine, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Rosemary Extract, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate (source of Vitamin B1), Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement (source of Vitamin B2), Inositol, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Potassium Iodide, Folic Acid, Cobalt Carbonate

I don't care what you feed, so no need for anyone to tell me that I have now beat up anyone's self esteem on the internet......but, if someone is asking questions (as the OP), I will share my opinion.

As for the quality control of Hill's, they were part of the 2007 recall, so I don't think they are top notch there either.

dalpal
Jan. 10, 2009, 09:17 AM
I agree Innova is a great food, but sorry to disagree with you that many other dog foods, including Science Diet are "not good".
Science Diet is all our many dogs, some obedience and later also agility competition dogs over many years had, was the best at that time, kept our old toy poodle in liver failure happy for the last two years of her life.:)

One of our vets is a nutritionist and tells us that today, most of the good dog foods are carefully researched and the ingredients don't matter to a normal dog, their body will process whatever we provide it into what it needs.

Much of the talk today by people like us here is just following very good marketing by companies and magazines that live off making differences sound so important.:p

The reality is that millions of dogs out there, eating all kinds of dog food and other kinds of food have thru centuries and are today doing fine, thank you.
Sure, you may find some local no name company producing some poorly put together cheap dog food with basement quality ingredients, but the national commercial dog companies are very careful to provide a good product with much research behind it and any new research is carefully looked at by their nutritionists and whatever necessary then added to their own rations.

My own little dog came from the breeder with Nutro Ultra.
When that was gone, I tried Solid Gold, Blue, Innova, Science Diet and a few others, as our vet tells us that to change brands occassionally is good, in case one doesn't has a nutrient our dog could use and so the dogs get used to eat different things.
Well, my 9 lb dog, that is not a chow hound, still ate best with Nutro, so that is what she is again getting, for now.

Dogs, like people, are omnivorous and with a varied and basic diet can do well, as long as there are no special problems, like allergies or some organ that is not functioning well, like a bad liver, or a missing enzyme, etc.

Some of the dog foods out there considered tops are like eating a steak and lobster based diet daily.
Sure, it is fine, but not everyone needs to eat that richly all the time.
Pleasant, yes, necessary, no.:)


I totally disagree with you....please, please explain to me what makes this a "great food" It's 53.00 for 35 pounds and it's mostly nothing but fillers.

Lamb Meal, Brewers Rice, Rice Flour, Ground Whole Grain Wheat, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Corn Gluten Meal, Cracked Pearled Barley, Animal Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Chicken Liver Flavor, Soybean Oil, Dried Beet Pulp, Potassium Chloride, Flaxseed, Iodized Salt, Choline Chloride, L-Lysine, Vitamin E Supplement, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Niacin, Folic Acid, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Taurine, Glucosamine Hydorchloride, Chondroitin Sulfate, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), L-Carnitine, preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract

Why would I pay 53.00 for 35 pounds of SD, when I can buy 30lbs of Innova for 46.00 with these ingredients.

Turkey, Chicken, Chicken Meal, Barley, Brown Rice, Potatoes, Rice, Chicken Fat, Flaxseed, Herring, Natural Flavors, Apples, Carrots, Pumpkin, Egg, Sunflower Oil, Sea Salt, Potassium Chloride, Herring Oil, Cottage Cheese, Alfalfa Sprouts, Direct-Fed Microbials, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract,


I can get 33 pounds of Fromm for 40.00 with these ingredients

Duck, Chicken Meal, Chicken, Brown Rice, Pearled Barley, Oatmeal, Menhaden Fish Meal, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Lamb, Potato, Tomato Pomace, Whole Egg, Salmon Oil (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Cheese, Flaxseed, Brewers Dried Yeast, Alfalfa Meal, Carrots, Lettuce, Celery, Lecithin, Chicken Cartilage, Monocalcium Phosphate, Salt, Potassium Chloride, DL-Methionine, Chicory Root Extract, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Bifidobacterium Longum, Lactobacillus Plantarum, Enterococcous Faecium, Vitamin A, D3, E, B12 Supplements, Choline Chloride, Niacin, Pantothenic Acid, Ascorbic Acid, Riboflavin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite (Source of Vitamin K Activity), Biotin, Zinc Sulfate, Iron Carbonate, Manganous Oxide, Copper Oxide, Cobalt Carbonate, Calcium Iodate, Sorbic Acid, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Sodium Selenite.

I can get 44 pounds of Canidae for 44.00 with these ingredients...

Chicken meal, turkey meal, lamb meal, brown rice, white rice, rice bran, peas, potatoes, oatmeal, cracked pearled barley, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), millet, tomato pomace, natural flavor, flaxseed meal, ocean fish meal, choline chloride, sun cured alfalfa meal, inulin (from chicory root), lecithin, sage extract, cranberries, beta carotene, rosemary extract, sunflower oil, yucca schidigera extract, dried enterococcus faecium, dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried aspergillus oryzae fermentation extract, dried bacillus subtilis fermentation extract, saccharomyces cerevisiae fermentation solubles, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid, cobalt proteinate, organic selenium, papaya, pineapple.

OR 30 pounds of Taste of the Wild for 42.00

Duck, duck meal, chicken meal, egg product, sweet potatoes, peas, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, potatoes, roasted quail, roasted duck, smoked turkey, natural flavor, tomato pomace, ocean fish meal, choline chloride, dried chicory root, tomatoes, blueberries, raspberries, yucca schidigera extract, Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Saccharomyces cerevesiae fermentation solubles, dried Aspergillus oryzae fermentation extract, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin (vitamin B2), vitamin D supplement, folic acid.

So Bluey, please explain to me again why Science Diet is such a great choice when you can buy better ingredients for Less?????

dalpal
Jan. 10, 2009, 09:48 AM
My dog has food allergies. He does just fine on Diamond Lamb and Rice and he also does just fine on Ole' Roy Lamb and Rice. I think its the same food.
He is almost 15 and is just getting his first stiffness in is SI area. Never been sick from his food, never been lame, never has flare-ups of his skin like he did on more $$$$ dog foods, great teeth, No tarter, never had an ear infection and doesn't even get fleas.

He is half greyhound and half Pointer. They have a much shorter average life span the 15 years.

He does have fatter tumors, but they do not seem to be killing him.

If he eats the $$$$$ dog food they sell at the $$$$$ store his farts will knock you over. So I stick with what works and I am happy it is cheap. He eats about #50 a month. His picture is in my blog profile and his is about 12 there. He still had such good eyes he didn't need reading glasses!

Ol Roy...lamb meal, brewer's rice, soybean meal, ground yellow corn, ground wheat, wheat middlings, beef tallow, wheat flour, corn gluten meal, animal digest, salt, L-lysine mono-hydrochloride, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, copper Sulfate, Choline Chloride,zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin D and E Supplement, Niacin, Manganous sulfate, folic Acid, D calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A supplement, Calcium Iodate, riboflavin Supplement, garlic oil, pyridoxine Hydrochloride, thiamine mononitrate, folic Acid, menadione sodium bisolfite complex (source of Vitamin K), calcium iodate, sodium selenite
Diamond...
Lamb meal, whole grain brown rice, white rice, cracked pearled barley, fish meal, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), egg product, beet pulp, flaxseed, natural flavor, brewers dried yeast, potassium chloride, salt, choline chloride, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.

I am glad this works for your dog, but the only two things that these two share in common is Lamb Meal....they are not the same dog food.

Auventera Two
Jan. 10, 2009, 09:59 AM
So few vets no ANYTHING about nutrition. :no: When I rescued the foundered horse I asked about feeding her Safechoice instead of beet pulp. First of all, he had never even HEARD of Safechoice, and second, he said "Oh yeah, beet pulp's fine." I said - "Well, I'll feed her the NO MOLASSES beet pulp." He said "Oh, well either one, doesn't matter." :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: (Note, she's been seen by 4 different vets now.)

Different Vet - When my dog was on the Science Diet and his hair was falling out and he was so stinky, itchy and miserable he wanted to die, the vet sold me a $30 shampoo and put him on Termaril-P and some other steroid injection then told me the dog could never eat ANY kind of protein ever again. Never ONCE suspected it was the horrible garbage food he was on! :no: Ok then einstein, why is he doing so awesome on Fromm??

I agree with LMH - I will catch wild animals with my bare hands to feed my dogs before I'll go anywhere near Science Diet or Iams.

Again I will submit to you - people will flip head over heals to feed their HORSES properly, but when it comes to dogs, lets just toss whatever cheap, corn based Aisle 7 food in their bowl we can find. Why is that?

One of my very good friends does Weim rescue (where I got my dog) and she's a dog food guru, and she told me not to feed Iams or Science Diet, she's seen dogs on these diets and their coats are dry and rough and they have no energy. Feed a Weim a high quality, high protein food and not only do they glisten and get soft as spun satin, but their personalities are outstanding. On junk food, the dogs don't thrive at all. She feeds Core Wellness.

Blinkers On
Jan. 10, 2009, 10:11 AM
I've tried, knew better and failed. There is nothing you can buy in the grocery store or target or walmart or Costco that is quality dog food. Some dogs will however tolerate it.
I have one dog that will tolerate anything and one that has allergies and tolerates little. So I cook for them...
The old dog a white shepherd mix has never looked better. The tech that helped neuter him had not seen him in years and was amazed at how he's aged. I was so proud!
I tried Candiea (sp?).. dogs both had the nastiest gas. Wellness Core lamb.. or chicken..good anything else they both had the runs. So I got the allergic one good and for some reason decided I should try Beneful... I thought I got away with it!... then he was raw, had ear infections and stinky feet... store bought food is garbage. Aim high... supplement with fat if you can. THEN maybe you don't have to feed 6 cups of what you feed.

Bluey
Jan. 10, 2009, 10:56 AM
I've tried, knew better and failed. There is nothing you can buy in the grocery store or target or walmart or Costco that is quality dog food. Some dogs will however tolerate it.
I have one dog that will tolerate anything and one that has allergies and tolerates little. So I cook for them...
The old dog a white shepherd mix has never looked better. The tech that helped neuter him had not seen him in years and was amazed at how he's aged. I was so proud!
I tried Candiea (sp?).. dogs both had the nastiest gas. Wellness Core lamb.. or chicken..good anything else they both had the runs. So I got the allergic one good and for some reason decided I should try Beneful... I thought I got away with it!... then he was raw, had ear infections and stinky feet... store bought food is garbage. Aim high... supplement with fat if you can. THEN maybe you don't have to feed 6 cups of what you feed.

You really can't go by what your few dogs need to now say what everyone else's dogs need.;)

There are whole kennels of show dogs, that win on their excellent coats and general physical condition, that eat all kinds of dog food.:yes:
There are whole kennels of working dogs of all kinds of performance disciplines, fed all kinds of ways and all do fine competing.:yes:

There are no basically "bad" national commercial foods.
There are foods of all kinds, even those that someone may prepare at home, that are either right or wrong...for YOUR individual dogs.:yes:

When someone comes to our dog classes with a dog that is not in good shape, which happens rarely, we approach that as a whole problem.
We inquire about the dog, home, exercise, grooming, if a vet has seen the dog and nutrition is only one of many factors that may be lacking when a dog is looking poorly.
If we narrow the problem to nutrition, the reccommendation is that they may consider a CHANGE of food, not that one kind is better than another on principle.
No one knows until they try, what will be best for that one dog.

Because people get so fanatic about what is good or bad, even in the face of perfectly good examples of what they are bashing, that is why in our dog club we don't discuss dog foods.:winkgrin:

murphyluv
Jan. 10, 2009, 11:15 AM
You really can't go by what your few dogs need to now say what everyone else's dogs need.;)

There are no basically "bad" national commercial foods.
There are foods of all kinds, even those that someone may prepare at home, that are either right or wrong...for YOUR individual dogs.:yes:
:

I agree with you- EVO, or TOTW, or whatever, won't work on 100% of the population. And some can't afford to do anything other than grocery store brand food.
But I totally disagree with you that there are no "bad" brand foods. After all the recalls, it totally proves that they have no quality control, and looking at all of the ingredients listed for some of these foods it boggles the mind that anyone would consider them "good".
I agree that just b/c a dog has a poor coat or other issues, doesn't mean that they are being fed crappy dog food, but it may mean that they just aren't on the right one.
and for those owners who think their dogs are just fine- um, hello, fatty tumours could also be related to the food- there's probably no reserach to prove it, but hell, why risk it? What about poor teeth, gum issues, allergies, etc-- no one thinks to relate them to the food.

Auventera Two
Jan. 10, 2009, 12:57 PM
There are no basically "bad" national commercial foods.

This is absolutely wrong. 75% or MORE of the commercially available dog foods are full of animal byproducts, animal digest, unidentified protein and fat sources, artificial colors and flavors, cheap useless fillers, and even KNOWN allergens and carcinogens! :eek::eek::eek:

Very few dog foods use high quality whole meats and skip all the garbage. Times have changed since the days of ground up chicken feathers, horse meat, and corn for dog food. There are many MUCH healthier and more wholesome products available.

Again - I'll ask you Bluey - why is cancer the #1 killer of domesticated dogs and cats in the United States - claiming the lives of over 50% of all our pets? One person whose dog lived 17 years eating Alpo does not change the fact that history has PROVEN that cancer kills more of our dogs and cats prematurely, than anything else. My husband's grandpa smoked a pack a day his whole life and died of a heart attack in his 90s. But does that somehow prove that cigarettes and smoking are safe? Hardly.

One of our dogs died of cancer and since then I've done every bit of reading and researching I can to figure out how to help prevent it. Almost any literature or articles you can find on the topic strongly recommend staying away from cheap foods full of chemical preservatives. And the fact is, almost all grocery store brands are just that.

My aunt's young dog (around 10) just died of cancer last year. He got sick one day and the next day he was diagnosed with a body full of tumors and he was dead in 24 hours. My sister in law's dog (again, about 10) just fell getting off the bed and broke his femur. They took him in for emergency care and radiographs showed he had bone cancer, and it was advanced. They never brought him home that day. I could tell you story after story of dogs that I know personally who have died way too young of cancer. These are all different breeds and histories, but the one thing in common is that they all eat cheap dog food, or science diet. Oh sure dogs die of cancer who eat the high end premium stuff too, but I'd be willing to bet that the figures are a lot less.

Auventera Two
Jan. 10, 2009, 01:02 PM
If we narrow the problem to nutrition, the reccommendation is that they may consider a CHANGE of food, not that one kind is better than another on principle.

I could eat McDonalds 3 meals a day and never have a problem. But one visit to Taco Bell gives me gutt cramps and the backdoor trots for 2 days. So does that mean that I could eat 3 meals a day at Mac and Don's House of Death and live a long, healthy life full of vitality? Doubtful. Just because a dog doesn't get sick, or get allergies when they're eating junk food doesn't mean that it is not still harming them.

Blinkers On
Jan. 10, 2009, 01:31 PM
I do disagree as well. I wish I could feed Ole Roy from WalMart, but no thanks!
I've tried cheap, expensive, raw, the list is endless. And one of my dogs could likely eat a jalapeno and not get the runs (no I haven't tried it) BUT she can't stomach the store bought without a pooy and gassy reaction.
I don't think the dog food world is perfect on any level. I would love not to cook for my dogs but at least I know what's in it then. Dog food is kind of like a hot dog. It's well intentioned, but scary as to whats in it. Might even taste really good!.. but eeewww and I still eat them from time to time... nasty.
But you are right my two dogs aren't a big demographic to poll. BUT IME, dog food is interesting.

equinelaw
Jan. 10, 2009, 04:51 PM
Ol Roy...lamb meal, brewer's rice, soybean meal, ground yellow corn, ground wheat, wheat middlings, beef tallow, wheat flour, corn gluten meal, animal digest, salt, L-lysine mono-hydrochloride, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, copper Sulfate, Choline Chloride,zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin D and E Supplement, Niacin, Manganous sulfate, folic Acid, D calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A supplement, Calcium Iodate, riboflavin Supplement, garlic oil, pyridoxine Hydrochloride, thiamine mononitrate, folic Acid, menadione sodium bisolfite complex (source of Vitamin K), calcium iodate, sodium selenite
Diamond...
Lamb meal, whole grain brown rice, white rice, cracked pearled barley, fish meal, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), egg product, beet pulp, flaxseed, natural flavor, brewers dried yeast, potassium chloride, salt, choline chloride, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.

I am glad this works for your dog, but the only two things that these two share in common is Lamb Meal....they are not the same dog food.

Man, I kind of like that list of ingredients. I think I'd rather him eat that stuff then peas, potatoes. Wouldn't want him eating that every day. I have nothing against peas and potatoes, but I do not feel they are superior to other vegetables or grains.

And no, I do not think my dog got his fatty tumors from his dog food. Lots of dogs get them whether they are on "good" dog foods or "cheap" dog foods. The difference is my dog has had then for years and is still alive and hearty and doing very well.

I was sort of shocked when the recall list came out. So many of the "good" foods were on it and Diamond was not. I thought the "good" foods were made in some grandmothers kitchen or on a farm:)

When I worked at Vets I got "good" foods at cost. None of them kept his allergies down as much as the "bad" foods he eats now. Looking at the 2 lists of ingredients together, I can see what he is not allergic too. Its not corn or wheat.

dalpal
Jan. 10, 2009, 05:51 PM
You really can't go by what your few dogs need to now say what everyone else's dogs need.;) And...you are doing the same thing Bluey.There are whole kennels of show dogs, that win on their excellent coats and general physical condition, that eat all kinds of dog food.:yes: And do you walk through the kennels and ask every single breeder what they are feeding...I would bet maybe, maybe 10 percent/if that..are feeding the brands that you have recommended.
There are whole kennels of working dogs of all kinds of performance disciplines, fed all kinds of ways and all do fine competing.:yes: Same question, and once again, I doubt seriously most of these "Serious" competitors feed low grade dog food.
There are no basically "bad" national commercial foods...I don't even know what to say to this comment.There are foods of all kinds, even those that someone may prepare at home, that are either right or wrong...for YOUR individual dogs.:yes:

When someone comes to our dog classes with a dog that is not in good shape, which happens rarely, we approach that as a whole problem.
We inquire about the dog, home, exercise, grooming, if a vet has seen the dog and nutrition is only one of many factors that may be lacking when a dog is looking poorly.
If we narrow the problem to nutrition, the reccommendation is that they may consider a CHANGE of food, not that one kind is better than another on principle.
No one knows until they try, what will be best for that one dog.
Pe
Because people get so fanatic about what is good or bad, even in the face of perfectly good examples of what they are bashing, that is why in our dog club we don't discuss dog foods.:winkgrin: There's that word again...no need for it......the OP asked a question, and people have given their thoughts on the matter.


Why is it, that anytime I ask you a question on any of these threads, you don't address it? Please explain to me how a 53.00 bag of Science Diet compares to Innova, Fromm, Canidae, etc....I've even researched the ingredients for you.

I don't put garbage in my body and will not fill my animals (horses, dogs, cats) full of biproducts or chemically engineered foods either.

dalpal
Jan. 10, 2009, 05:56 PM
Man, I kind of like that list of ingredients. Which one...Diamond or Ol Roy?
I think I'd rather him eat that stuff then peas, potatoes. You'd rather feed a diet of flour and corn? Corn isn't even processed...at least they get some nutrition from potatoes.
Wouldn't want him eating that every day. I have nothing against peas and potatoes, but I do not feel they are superior to other vegetables or grains.
Corn and flour are not superior for a meat eating animal....did you also notice that those same foods that have potatoes and peas, have about three meat sources????

And no, I do not think my dog got his fatty tumors from his dog food. Lots of dogs get them whether they are on "good" dog foods or "cheap" dog foods. The difference is my dog has had then for years and is still alive and hearty and doing very well. I never said that your dog got fatty tumors from dog food, I was merely correcting you that those two foods are not the same thing. It took 5 minutes of research on the internet.I was sort of shocked when the recall list came out. So many of the "good" foods were on it and Diamond was not. I thought the "good" foods were made in some grandmothers kitchen or on a farm:) And yet, many of the truly good foods were never recalled.
When I worked at Vets I got "good" foods at cost. None of them kept his allergies down as much as the "bad" foods he eats now. Looking at the 2 lists of ingredients together, I can see what he is not allergic too. Its not corn or wheat. I guess that's a good thing, if you like the corn and wheat.

dalpal
Jan. 10, 2009, 05:59 PM
This is absolutely wrong. 75% or MORE of the commercially available dog foods are full of animal byproducts, animal digest, unidentified protein and fat sources, artificial colors and flavors, cheap useless fillers, and even KNOWN allergens and carcinogens! :eek::eek::eek:

Very few dog foods use high quality whole meats and skip all the garbage. Times have changed since the days of ground up chicken feathers, horse meat, and corn for dog food. There are many MUCH healthier and more wholesome products available.

Again - I'll ask you Bluey - why is cancer the #1 killer of domesticated dogs and cats in the United States - claiming the lives of over 50% of all our pets? One person whose dog lived 17 years eating Alpo does not change the fact that history has PROVEN that cancer kills more of our dogs and cats prematurely, than anything else. My husband's grandpa smoked a pack a day his whole life and died of a heart attack in his 90s. But does that somehow prove that cigarettes and smoking are safe? Hardly.

One of our dogs died of cancer and since then I've done every bit of reading and researching I can to figure out how to help prevent it. Almost any literature or articles you can find on the topic strongly recommend staying away from cheap foods full of chemical preservatives. And the fact is, almost all grocery store brands are just that.

My aunt's young dog (around 10) just died of cancer last year. He got sick one day and the next day he was diagnosed with a body full of tumors and he was dead in 24 hours. My sister in law's dog (again, about 10) just fell getting off the bed and broke his femur. They took him in for emergency care and radiographs showed he had bone cancer, and it was advanced. They never brought him home that day. I could tell you story after story of dogs that I know personally who have died way too young of cancer. These are all different breeds and histories, but the one thing in common is that they all eat cheap dog food, or science diet. Oh sure dogs die of cancer who eat the high end premium stuff too, but I'd be willing to bet that the figures are a lot less.


Good luck getting an answer, I have yet to have Bluey answer anything that I've asked. :confused:

grayarabpony
Jan. 10, 2009, 06:00 PM
My aunt's young dog (around 10) just died of cancer last year. He got sick one day and the next day he was diagnosed with a body full of tumors and he was dead in 24 hours. My sister in law's dog (again, about 10) just fell getting off the bed and broke his femur. They took him in for emergency care and radiographs showed he had bone cancer, and it was advanced. They never brought him home that day. I could tell you story after story of dogs that I know personally who have died way too young of cancer. These are all different breeds and histories, but the one thing in common is that they all eat cheap dog food, or science diet. Oh sure dogs die of cancer who eat the high end premium stuff too, but I'd be willing to bet that the figures are a lot less.

I don't know if any of these dogs were pure-bred but honestly, I don't think current practices of inbreeding help matters any.

I'm wore out from taking care of my JRT for 20 years, but I'd be nervous about getting a breed dog. My JRT had hybrid vigor going for her. lol She had the terrier hardheadedness and a beagle nose.

AiryFairy
Jan. 10, 2009, 06:09 PM
I feed Innova as well, my sighthounds maintain beautifully on 1 cup am and pm, sometimes I'll boil a chicken and add that meat and broth in as a little extra 'sumpin sumpin' to ease the boredom. If you're trying to fill them out a bit, you can add some rice for carbs. I've tried a lot of the premium dog foods, this is the one I have had the least problems with, sighthounds have very delicate digestion. It's good quality food, with a simple list of digestible ingredients, as compared to SD which is nothing but slaughterhouse waste and filler garbage. Sorry, SD rep, but I'd feed my dogs my people food, meat and vegetables, before that bag o' waste would ever go in their bowls.

Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover's Soul is also an excellent quality food, and on the less expensive side, I sometimes use the canned food as something different.

lewin
Jan. 10, 2009, 06:18 PM
Honestly, if you believe SD is a good food then you might as well save yourself the $$$$ and feed pedigree. It has about the same ingredients, quality, etc. And of course the research supports it. They pay for all the research.

Or for SD prices you can feed a food that uses real meats and identifiable ingredients. While I do like corn for myself, it does not make up 50% of my diet. And no dog should be getting its meat from by-products.

dalpal
Jan. 10, 2009, 06:28 PM
Honestly, if you believe SD is a good food then you might as well save yourself the $$$$ and feed pedigree. It has about the same ingredients, quality, etc. And of course the research supports it. They pay for all the research.

Or for SD prices you can feed a food that uses real meats and identifiable ingredients. While I do like corn for myself, it does not make up 50% of my diet. And no dog should be getting its meat from by-products.


Great post....I was stunned when I saw the 53.00 price tag on that bag of food (did my research on www.petfooddirect.com ) Good grief, that's more expensive than MOST of the higher end foods. The only one that I personally saw that was more than SD was Timberwolf. The rest were all comparable or less.

Auventera Two
Jan. 10, 2009, 07:01 PM
I don't know if any of these dogs were pure-bred but honestly, I don't think current practices of inbreeding help matters any.

I'm wore out from taking care of my JRT for 20 years, but I'd be nervous about getting a breed dog. My JRT had hybrid vigor going for her. lol She had the terrier hardheadedness and a beagle nose.

One was a purebred Golden Retriever, bred by a "for fun" pet breeder. The other was a dobie/rott mix.

murphyluv
Jan. 10, 2009, 07:03 PM
Honestly, if you believe SD is a good food then you might as well save yourself the $$$$ and feed pedigree. It has about the same ingredients, quality, etc. And of course the research supports it. They pay for all the research.

.

I'm sorry- this is what is so wrong with the pet and horse feed industries- most of the research (what little there is) is paid for by these big companies- of course they are going to pay to have research done that proves the "science" behind their foods!!
I have met more dogs on pedigree with crappy coats, HORRIBLE gas and other issues. Not to mention the stuff is dyed red- to fool the idiot owners into thinkint it actually looks like meat.

However- I do have to agree that in some way inbreeding probably contributes to cancer rates. Hunting dogs are now overbred stupid dogs with health issues and no remote sense of how to hunt. However, I also have long believed that rising cancer rates in people is related to the food we eat and the rising number of chemicals and heavy metals we are exposed to. It would make sense that all the byproducts, dyes, and preservatives in dog food would also contribute to cancer in dogs. Of course, though, no dog food company is going to pay for THAT research.

Invite
Jan. 10, 2009, 07:10 PM
I am having very good luck with Innova for my 2 guys. The dog I rescued now has a shiny coat and has gained the 10 pounds he needed. He is a coonhound and has a high metabolism. He gets 3 cups per day with a little canned mixed in at each feeding. My 9 year old short, stubby Lab looks and acts much younger. He has more energy and a better coat now then he did when he was a youngster. My vet is shocked and is switching her dogs to the Innova after my success. My lab only gets 1 1/2 cups per day even though he is larger than my hound.

grayarabpony
Jan. 10, 2009, 07:18 PM
One was a purebred Golden Retriever, bred by a "for fun" pet breeder. The other was a dobie/rott mix.

Rotties are known for being prone to cancer, according to a Rottie breeder that I knew.

If dogs are actually dying at a younger age, obesity is no doubt partially responsible too.

I had an ex-vet of mine try to convince me to buy a lower protein Science Diet food after misdiagnosing my dog with kidney problems at ten years of age. She had NO ENERGY with the lower protein food. We treated her problem (a bladder infection), but she didn't pep back up until she started getting enough protein again.

She got a multi-vitamin every day too.

Bluey
Jan. 10, 2009, 07:19 PM
Good luck getting an answer, I have yet to have Bluey answer anything that I've asked. :confused:

I have answered your questions several times. Indirectly and when you didn't seem to understand the answers, directly and you still don't understand the answer.
Guess I need good luck getting you to read for comprehension.:no:

Auventera Two
Jan. 10, 2009, 07:21 PM
Science diet uses a preservative that is known to cause cancer in humans and is banned by the FDA. That should tell people something there.

It's much better that a dog be living in a great and loving home eating aisle 7 grocery store brand food than living in a shelter or in an abusive home or tied out to a tree starving to death. I don't begrudge anyone who rescues a dog just to keep them out of a bad situation and then feeds them store brand foods. The dog is much better off eating pedigree or alpo or science diet than wandering on the side of the road living out of trash cans. But its just that I don't agree with people who try to prove those are great foods.

I admit I feed Fromm because its locally available and my dog food cost would double if I had to order CORE or Innova online and have it shipped. Fromm is not "as" premium as the others but it IS a premium food with excellent ingredients, my dogs do great on it, and so I don't feel the need to switch. But I won't try to argue that Fromm is "better" than Innova or CORE, because its not. The others do have a higher meat/protein content which is preferrable, but due to the logistics of getting them here, I have to draw the line at the cost and with my budget, Fromm is the best food I can buy and still afford to feed the horses, and myself and pay my bills. :)

And I definitely understand people who draw the line at alpo or Pedigree. That's fine, as long as you don't try to argue that its as good as the premium brands, and then try to convince other people of the same.

I'd rather have a dog live in a nice loving home with plenty of affection, and his needs met, and take the risk with a cheaper food, than to be living in a bad home and eating premium.

Brookes
Jan. 10, 2009, 07:27 PM
I have show setters, gordon and irish. I recently changed from Canadaie to California Natural low fat. I really like the way the girls are looking. The shine is coming from the inside. Hair loss has reduced, poop has reduced and thank god the gas has reduced.

I do supplement with apple, raw chicken wings, backs and necks. Feed Grizzly Alaska Salmon Oil plus HALO's vita-mineral mix.

Because they are show dogs I need to keep them fairly trim, I also will feed green beans to beef up the volumne in the bowl 2 weeks before a show. They have a full tummy and the weight stays good.

Good luck to the op and the two dogs. Remember good exercise will help build muscle and that will help put weight on them and help them to be healthier all around.

Denzel
Jan. 10, 2009, 07:48 PM
I haven't read all the replies, but I just wanted to add a little info about Natura and their products.

Natura (they manufacture Evo, Innova, California Natural and Healthwise) is actually a family owned company based in California. Their main processing plant is located in Omaha, Nebraska. I work in a pet store that carries Natura as our "main" line (we also carry the Champion (Acana & Orijen) as well as others). The store I work at is a family owned, locally operated store so we definitely do our research and carry what is the best because it is the best, not because of monetary reasons. One of the owners has been to the Omaha plant, and they really do use human grade ingredients. Their ingredient storage area really just looks like a grocery store, same products we eat.

All of the natura products are cooked at LOW heat, which preserves a lot of the natural nutrition, unlike something like science diet which cooks at high temps, gets rid of most of the natural nutrients and adds it back in chemical form. Natura products go through 121, yes, 121 quality checks before it even leaves the plant.

As far as grain-free foods go, the best ones are by far EVO and Orijen. Grain-free does not always = low carb. The new Acana grain-free still contain around 24% carbs, whereas the Orijen has 18% and Evo 12% (the lowest out on the market). What this means, is that out of all of the grain-free diets, EVO has the highest meat content.

However, the grain-free diet doesn't work for every dog, which is why Natura also carries their original Innova line (which now also comes in a red meat formula, not just white meat), their "allergy" California Natural line and their "economical" Healthwise line.

Just my two cents!

Just thought I should also add that when you see "Chicken By-Product" on and ingredient list, you are getting "necks, feet, undeveloped eggs, and intestines". Mmmm, delicious!

Just for some more info, you can go to www.naturapet.com to see the manufactoring video, and http://naturapet.com/tools/ingredient.asp has an ingredient definition list for the majority of the good and bad ingredients found it pet foods. Happy researching!

Bluey
Jan. 10, 2009, 08:21 PM
I haven't read all the replies, but I just wanted to add a little info about Natura and their products.

Natura (they manufacture Evo, Innova, California Natural and Healthwise) is actually a family owned company based in California. Their main processing plant is located in Omaha, Nebraska. I work in a pet store that carries Natura as our "main" line (we also carry the Champion (Acana & Orijen) as well as others). The store I work at is a family owned, locally operated store so we definitely do our research and carry what is the best because it is the best, not because of monetary reasons. One of the owners has been to the Omaha plant, and they really do use human grade ingredients. Their ingredient storage area really just looks like a grocery store, same products we eat.

All of the natura products are cooked at LOW heat, which preserves a lot of the natural nutrition, unlike something like science diet which cooks at high temps, gets rid of most of the natural nutrients and adds it back in chemical form. Natura products go through 121, yes, 121 quality checks before it even leaves the plant.

As far as grain-free foods go, the best ones are by far EVO and Orijen. Grain-free does not always = low carb. The new Acana grain-free still contain around 24% carbs, whereas the Orijen has 18% and Evo 12% (the lowest out on the market). What this means, is that out of all of the grain-free diets, EVO has the highest meat content.

However, the grain-free diet doesn't work for every dog, which is why Natura also carries their original Innova line (which now also comes in a red meat formula, not just white meat), their "allergy" California Natural line and their "economical" Healthwise line.

Just my two cents!

I don't think there is any such as "human grade" and my understanding is that the AAFCO does not recognize this form of labeling.
"Human grade" may mean one thing to one pet food manufacturer and something different to another, but it is a catchy marketing word.;)

Just my two cents.:)

amdfarm
Jan. 10, 2009, 09:30 PM
To my thinking the best cheap dog food available at Tractor Supply is the Diamond Natural Chicken and Rice. Last I looked it was about $26 for a 40 lb bag. My dogs did well on it. But I recently decided to switch to Taste of The Wild just because it is much better, albeit much more expensive, food. The Diamond Natural was actually cheaper than the WallyWorld Maxximum, which is no longer available, and the ingredient list is not TOO scary.

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=932&cat=5

That explains why I couldn't find it when I went to buy dog food last week. I liked that food and my dogs did very well on it. I can't even remember what I got now to replace it. My dogs have always done well on lamb or chicken and rice feeds. I had a dog w/ a sensitive stomach and it worked well for her.

dalpal
Jan. 10, 2009, 10:45 PM
I have answered your questions several times. Indirectly and when you didn't seem to understand the answers, directly and you still don't understand the answer.
Guess I need good luck getting you to read for comprehension.:no:

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Umm, no you haven't. I asked you what was the benefit to choosing SD at 53.00 per bag and the premium foods that are less....and I have yet to see an answer from you.

No comprehension problems here....must be invisible posts. :lol:

dalpal
Jan. 10, 2009, 10:49 PM
Nor did you answer my questions in post 34, did you ask all those breeders what they fed and they all said...SD or Pedigree? Otherwise, how do you know what they feed???? Once again, must have been an invisable response. :confused:

appychik
Jan. 11, 2009, 12:03 AM
Well... our dogs are on Science Diet, the Hills W/D. Has worked absolute wonders with both of them. Java was diagnosed years ago with bladder stones. Has had surgery at least twice. The W/D keeps things in check and doesn't cause the issues like the old food did (forgot what that was, as she's now 10 years old...).

Tucker is allergic to everything under the sun. Was actually doing quite well on Nature's Balance (I think) Duck and Potato. Slowly switched him over to the W/D as well and no issues, whatsoever. This is a dog who will have diarrhea if you look at him wrong. He seems to be getting along just fine now on a 100% W/D diet.

Both dogs are happy and healthy. Tucker gets bloodwork done annually, as he's hypothyroid and I'm a paronoid owner (worked at a vet for too many years). He's doing quite well and actually maintains his weight quite well... if not a bit of a hard keeper, persay. But, I think that's only because he's running 90 miles an hour when he's not sleeping.

So, personally, I have no issues with SD. I don't think it's a horrible food even if it had known carciogens in it. What would you suggest we feed two dogs with known medical issues? Tucker can't tolerate beef or chicken, however he does well with the W/D which is mostly chicken. Whatever. Did well on the Duck and Potato, but that started to cause loose stools again. Other dog has history of bladder stones.

Anyways, I do prefer to feed better foods then Hills. But it works for mine. Heck, the cats are one the same food, Hills W/D for cats. Because both of them have histories of UTIs. Lovely.

Oh well. They are happy, healthy, in good weight, and always get the thumbs up from the vet. I'm pleased.

dalpal
Jan. 11, 2009, 12:17 AM
Well... our dogs are on Science Diet, the Hills W/D. Has worked absolute wonders with both of them. Java was diagnosed years ago with bladder stones. Has had surgery at least twice. The W/D keeps things in check and doesn't cause the issues like the old food did (forgot what that was, as she's now 10 years old...).

Tucker is allergic to everything under the sun. Was actually doing quite well on Nature's Balance (I think) Duck and Potato. Slowly switched him over to the W/D as well and no issues, whatsoever. This is a dog who will have diarrhea if you look at him wrong. He seems to be getting along just fine now on a 100% W/D diet.

Both dogs are happy and healthy. Tucker gets bloodwork done annually, as he's hypothyroid and I'm a paronoid owner (worked at a vet for too many years). He's doing quite well and actually maintains his weight quite well... if not a bit of a hard keeper, persay. But, I think that's only because he's running 90 miles an hour when he's not sleeping.

So, personally, I have no issues with SD. I don't think it's a horrible food even if it had known carciogens in it. What would you suggest we feed two dogs with known medical issues? Tucker can't tolerate beef or chicken, however he does well with the W/D which is mostly chicken. Whatever. Did well on the Duck and Potato, but that started to cause loose stools again. Other dog has history of bladder stones.

Anyways, I do prefer to feed better foods then Hills. But it works for mine. Heck, the cats are one the same food, Hills W/D for cats. Because both of them have histories of UTIs. Lovely.

Oh well. They are happy, healthy, in good weight, and always get the thumbs up from the vet. I'm pleased.


that's great...I'm glad your dogs are healthy. I will answer the question in bold....but it is simply my opinion/what I would personally do....I would personally try raw. My dalmatian had stomach pains/issues at least once or twice a month on kibble.....once I switched to canned, then to raw....he has been great.

The first day I gave mine raw wings, I held my breath and expected loose stools....totally the opposite.....the poops are actually well formed and do not take as long to decay.

I will tell you what worked for my cat (UTI boy)....he has issues with fish, if food has the slightest bit of fish in it, he will get a UTI. I had him on CD for two years and was scared to take him off......I put him on California Natural chicken and rice....and he does great. Anything else, premium foods included set off his UTI....so we stick to that food.

My friend uses one of the Purina Prescrips for her Corgi with IBS.....it works, so she is afraid to change....I don't blame her....she's spent thousands on this dog.

The reason I posted the prescip diet formulas was simply because so many people think that because their vet recommends it, that it is top notch and it isn't....not to mention very expensive. The "over the counter" SD is ridiculously overpriced for what you get.

We had my dal on UD for a few weeks when he started forming crystals....even the vet ( a dalmatian breeder) said..I would not keep him on this long term...and then she gave me some alternative choices. I ended up with raw after talking to many breeders and it has been the best thing that I have ever done for all my dogs' health.

Might also be worth just investigating a supplement called NUPRO. I absolutley LOVE that one. It is a great vitamin/mineral supplement for dogs. www.thehungrypuppy.com has the best price on it.

AiryFairy
Jan. 11, 2009, 02:06 AM
Honestly, if you believe SD is a good food then you might as well save yourself the $$$$ and feed pedigree.

I actually sent Pedigree an email about the fact that they call their product "good food for dogs", when in fact it's nothing more than waste products and byproducts. I thanked them for doing their 'adoption' drive, but said it would be nice if they actually stopped calling their food "good" until it IS. Of course they replied not addressing my comments about the food, but went overboard patting themselves on the back for the adoption drive. For the record most pet food companies are divisions of big food corporations, what's waste in the human food market gets put in dog food - saves them billions, still doesn't make good dog food.

gypsymare
Jan. 11, 2009, 03:43 AM
Why risk years of your dog's life and potentially thousands of dollars treating conditions that you could prevent by feeding a better food?

Higher quality foods are typically more expensive per pound, but you don't have to feed as much so your cost per day does not have to rise. Most major dog food brands are owned by huge human food conglomerates that have found a way to process their waste into a product they can sucker you into buying.

"Brewer's rice - the dried extracted residue of rice resulting from the manufacture of wort (liquid portion of malted grain) or beer and may contain pulverized dried spent hops in an amount not to exceed 3 percent."

That's just what a carnivorous animal's diet should be based on. *sarcasm* Ever look at a partially decomposed stool from a dog eating Pedigree? It looks like a pile of cornmeal. Because THAT'S WHAT IT IS! Yes, there are some brands that are TERRIBLE dog foods.

If you want to feed your dog poor quality food, by all means go for it. But don't try to defend the quality just because it didn't kill little Fifi. Some dogs live wonderfully healthy long lives on the stuff, but I'm not going to take that chance with my best friend.

Science Diet is NOT quality food. It's a rip off. Just educate yourself about what those ingredients really mean and read the label.

My other big peeve is the use of weight management formulas. You control how much food goes into the bowl. Feed less! Don't subject your poor dog's digestive system to "ground peanut hulls" and beet pulp (great for horses but alas our other carnivorous friends can't digest it) just so you don't have to feel guilty for doling out a correct portion size.

equinelaw
Jan. 11, 2009, 04:49 AM
Dogs are omnivores. Maybe you have wolf.

Bluey
Jan. 11, 2009, 08:46 AM
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Umm, no you haven't. I asked you what was the benefit to choosing SD at 53.00 per bag and the premium foods that are less....and I have yet to see an answer from you.

No comprehension problems here....must be invisible posts. :lol:

Oh, that is what you wanted me to answer?
I didn't think those were serious questions.:confused:
I thought you were being silly and those were hyperboles.:yes:

THAT is why I was not answering some those, just as I don't expect anyone to answer MY hypothetical questions, unless they too want to keep the conversation light and tease back.:p

AiryFairy
Jan. 11, 2009, 09:36 AM
That's just what a carnivorous animal's diet should be based on. *sarcasm* Ever look at a partially decomposed stool from a dog eating Pedigree? It looks like a pile of cornmeal. Because THAT'S WHAT IT IS! Yes, there are some brands that are TERRIBLE dog foods.


What's even worse about corn is that it's NOT digestible. I remember feeding Back to Basics when I first had dogs, mostly because it was the only food at the time that had probiotics in it. My dog vomited 12 hours after being fed and her stomach was still full of undigested corn. For dogs prone to bloat, that is not healthy, and with the Diamond corn fungus recall after that, I vowed no corn ever in my dog's food. It's a cheap filler, nothing more. Dogs might technically be omnivores, but they need good quality flesh meat as a main ingredient, not fillers and waste.

Auventera Two
Jan. 11, 2009, 09:47 AM
I don't think there is any such as "human grade" and my understanding is that the AAFCO does not recognize this form of labeling.
"Human grade" may mean one thing to one pet food manufacturer and something different to another, but it is a catchy marketing word.;)

Just my two cents.:)

You're correct. That's why you get on the phone and TALK to the company. Find out exactly WHERE their manufacturing facilities are, how they are inspected, ask for resources and references, etc....

Daydream Believer
Jan. 11, 2009, 10:01 AM
I just want to make one comment after reading this as this whole thread strikes me as kind of odd in light of the direction of most of the feed for horses discussions on this forum. First I agree that cheap fillers like grains/corn/gluten and garbage in BHA/BHT in dog food is bad for them. I fed Chicken Soup for years and now can't get it anymore for the dogs and I'm switching to Wellness.

It is bad for ANY animal to eat feeds full of fillers and byproducts to include horses and that is my point...and one I rarely see people getting upset about when they feed their processed feeds full of cheap by products like Soy meal and hulls, brewer's dried grains, wheat mids, oat hulls, etc... Molasses is frequently added also to make this mess palatable. It's all junk and like feeding horses potato chips and candy...and we wonder why they get IR and other issues. You are what you eat..literally.

I wonder why there is such a big market for premium and natural dog foods full of wholesome healthy (for dogs) ingredients yet next to nothing for horses?

Auventera Two
Jan. 11, 2009, 10:02 AM
that's great...I'm glad your dogs are healthy. I will answer the question in bold....but it is simply my opinion/what I would personally do....I would personally try raw. <<snip>>

If it were me, my dogs I would do more research, get second or third opinions, talk to a nutritionist, etc. before I'd settle for the at food long term. The main ingredients are corn, powdered cellulose, and chicken byproduct. :no: But, if it works for your dogs and you are scared to switch, I completely understand! Each person has to draw the line somewhere, and your comfort level might be different than mine. :)

I had a dog who was supposed to be on Z/D Ultra for the rest of his life and the vet said this dog could NEVER eat any form of whole protein again. It HAD to be hydrolyzed (which the Z/D provides.) This dog itched so badly he was living in a cone because during the course of one day he managed to scratch open a big raw spot on his face. It got infected, and was a mess. The dog drug his butt on the carpet constantly, his hair fell out, his skin turned to dry flakes and he smelled rancid. I was humiliated to even walk him down the street. And this is sort of a "special" dog in that I spent $5,000 on a leg surgery, so to have him die of allergies just wasn't in the plan. ;) He was on oral and injectable sterroids. I put him on the Z/D and he got WORSE. He was on it for at least a year, to the tune of $45 per 18 pound bag! :eek: This is a 60 lb. dog, so it was expensive.

Long story short - the dog went back on Fromm, skin cleared up, itching quit, etc. This dog lives on a farm, and as such, he eats HORSE POOP. :dead: At the time, my mother's OTTB was eating a lot of grain to try to keep weight on her. The dog was consuming the undigested corn with the horse poop and I believe it was the corn. My mom's horses no longer live here, and mine eat hay, beet pulp, alfalfa cubes, and only the arab gets a couple pounds of oats/pellets/BOSS. No corn, and no wheat, no more itchy dog. And on the better diet he doesn't feel compelled to eat the horse manure so much anyway. Instead of mowing down a full pile before you can stop him, he'll carry a single turd around and drop it when he sees you. Just typical dog stuff.

Auventera Two
Jan. 11, 2009, 10:12 AM
I just want to make one comment after reading this as this whole thread strikes me as kind of odd in light of the direction of most of the feed for horses discussions on this forum. First I agree that cheap fillers like grains/corn/gluten and garbage in BHA/BHT in dog food is bad for them. I fed Chicken Soup for years and now can't get it anymore for the dogs and I'm switching to Wellness.

It is bad for ANY animal to eat feeds full of fillers and byproducts to include horses and that is my point...and one I rarely see people getting upset about when they feed their processed feeds full of cheap by products like Soy meal and hulls, brewer's dried grains, wheat mids, oat hulls, etc... Molasses is frequently added also to make this mess palatable. It's all junk and like feeding horses potato chips and candy...and we wonder why they get IR and other issues. You are what you eat..literally.

I wonder why there is such a big market for premium and natural dog foods full of wholesome healthy (for dogs) ingredients yet next to nothing for horses?

GREAT point DB! You are right!!

I would argue though that the dog food delima is even WORSE! While I'm not going to argue that its ok to feed horses junk, horses' digestive tracts "are" FAR more suited to handle "low quality, empty calorie fillers" than dogs are! Wild dingos and wolves are opportunistic eaters, and they eat whatever they can catch. But they don't routinely graze in the corn field, or eat powdered cellulose, or meat that is full of chemicals and carcinogens. They will eat a WHOLE rabbit, including some of the fur, the nails, the bones, and yes even the entrails. But wild dingos and wolves may go 24 or 48 hours in between meals. They aren't snacking on 6 cups of corn every single day. They might a couple tablespoons of corn, if it was in the prey's digestive tract, but it's not their MAIN diet.

I think horses can far better handle eating oat hulls or empty fillers because even the wild ones eat grasses, bark and twigs that is empty cellulose. But dogs do NOT do that. If they can't find carnivorous prey, they will eat bugs or lizzards, but a wild dog or wolf will literally starve to death before they'll walk out into a corn field and graze on corn for days or weeks.

A few years back there was a female wolf that left her pack near the MN border, and travelled through WI and down into IL. The DNR tracked her pretty closely. I had the distinct pleasure of seeing this female near my farm! We never see Timber Wolves here - just coyotes and fox. She was VERY extremely thin. You could count every bone, her eyes did not look healthy, and she looked SO tired. Nothing like the glorious wolves you see on television that are an awe-inspiring site. This girl looked like she hadn't had a meal in weeks. So why didn't she just stop and start grazing on grass and corn?

A horse WILL graze on whatever junk empty filler they can get in their mouth, but dogs won't. I have to be really careful about tying my arab up to a tree on a long trail ride because she'll strip the bark off and eat it. I don't think its a boredom thing - she'll eat any type of bark or stick she can crunch up and swallow. So when we add fake meat flavorings to these junk fillers then pour it in their bowls every day, then argue that it is as good or better than the premium carnivore diets, what are we thinking?

No, our domesticated animals are not the same as their wild cousins, but I think we need to do a great deal of observation to learn what they eat, what are their habits and tendencies, etc. so we can provide the best care for their domesticated relatives.

Dogs are not true carnivores, in that they DO eat vegetable matter also, but there's no contention that meat isn't the main portion of their diet.

Daydream Believer
Jan. 11, 2009, 10:22 AM
True that horses can better handle the fillers, but why in the world would anyone want to pay for a concentrate feed that is full of them? If I want my horses to have a low quality filler, I can toss them a bale of old hay or something! I think what amazes me is the lack of thought many people have as to what exactly they are feeding in prepared foods to any of their animals. But then again...look how we people eat...UGH!

I ended up going back to a 100% forage diet for my horses this summer after I had so many problems with an expensive "premium" soy by product based feed, and I have been astounded at how much better they look in both bloom and weight levels. Lesson learned.

Back to dogs though....they will graze a bit on grasses and plants and will eat vegetables but if I'm not mistaken, they can't even digest corn and wheat can they? I was not able to find my Chicken Soup food for a while and bought Iam's Senior for my older dogs. BOTH of them lost an amazing amount of weight in a few months and when I really took a hard look at the ingredients I realized what a poor food it was compared to what they had been eating. No wonder they lost weight! Lots of tummy upsets also.

So they are now back on a premium food and I hate that I got suckered into buying a food full of fillers for them like I did by thinking the "name" meant something.

Auventera Two
Jan. 11, 2009, 10:24 AM
Rotties are known for being prone to cancer, according to a Rottie breeder that I knew.

I know so many dogs of all sizes, ages, and breeds that have died of cancer. The 1/2 rottie was only one of them. My dog was an irish setter.

Daydream Believer
Jan. 11, 2009, 10:54 AM
Why not just feed them something like Alfalfa or hay pellets to their supps into them? It has less than 10% NSC...lower than most "low starch" feeds. That is what I do and I'll use the alf. pellets to add calcium and protein also as needed. It is true that proportionately the dogs eat much more than the horses in their feeds...that is a good point.

However, I do think that horses are more sensitive though in some respects than dogs in their digestive systems so even a little bit of something that might seem harmless to us, might not be to them.

Auventera Two
Jan. 11, 2009, 11:03 AM
I can't get alfalfa (or any kind) of hay pellets here with any degree of regularity. You have to request them to be ordered, then sometimes they can't get them, sometimes the cost is 3x what it should be, etc. It's just not practical. And they do fine on the small bit they get.

Bluey
Jan. 11, 2009, 11:35 AM
Look, you two are talking about much you don't know about.
I don't want to make you mad, but really, there is good information out there on the science of nutrition for all, humans, horses, dogs and wildlife.

When you make a statement, please google it first, as you may see if it is accurate or not.

One example, corn. I have not googled it, but for what I remember when we studied nutrition, it is very digestible and a good source of energy in the form of carbohydrates.
Corn before it is mature is eaten by all wildlife, even coyotes and farm dogs eat it also, as do horses and it is used by the body.
Once corn is mature and hard, it goes partly undigested thru all our digestive systems, as it goes thru too fast if whole, that means not processed or chewed up well, be it humans or any other animal's systems.
The more you process corn, the more your body can use of it, cornbread a good example.:)

The digestive system is designated to use what it gets, for each animal a little bit different, but also much similar.

There is so much in what you both are saying that is questionable as facts.
I really think that you should read a little bit more about it in other than the quasi scientific sites you seem to be getting that information from, like holistic, "natural", dog forums and such, where misconceptions abound.

Posting Trot
Jan. 11, 2009, 12:04 PM
I've used Wysong with very good results, even with dogs that are prone to allergies. But I don't have huge dogs, and you may find it pricey.

My old BO used to feed her shepherds Blue Seal dog food. They did quite well on it.

Here's the website: http://www.blueseal.com/canine/Classics/natural26.php

It's pork based (which I actually like), and it does have corn and corn gluten in it, so if those ingredients scare you it's probably not for you. But as I said, my BO's shepherds did well on it.

Denzel
Jan. 11, 2009, 12:53 PM
Most major dog food brands are owned by huge human food conglomerates that have found a way to process their waste into a product they can sucker you into buying.


Actually, a lot of the dog foods aren't even owned by human FOOD corporations. Nutro is now owned by Mars (yep, the chocolate bars). Iams/Eukanuba is owned by Procter & Gamble (you can bet their number one interest isn't pet food). Health Science is owned by Palmolive (personally, I wouldn't want people who's prime interest is soap to be making my dog food).

Again, Natura is actually a family owned company (NOT a huge corporation) based in California, and pet food is ALL they do, so clearly they spend a lot of time and effort trying to find what really is best.

And as far as I know, there has been a lot of research done in the US at major veterinary institutes on canine nutrition that showed that they do NOT NEED carbohydrates in their diet, being carnivores. In the wild, the only form of this they get is from ingesting a prey animal's stomach contents, by which point, most of the carbs/cellulose is already broken down into it's building block components.

dalpal
Jan. 11, 2009, 12:57 PM
Look, you two are talking about much you don't know about. Umm, no.....I do know what I'm talking about. You just want to argue that you are right and everyone else is wrong...notice that most posters totally disagree with your view.

I don't want to make you mad, but really, there is good information out there on the science of nutrition for all, humans, horses, dogs and wildlife.

Yes, I would suggest that you research and read some books before saying that you know everything...such as "There are no bad commercial brands here in the US"

When you make a statement, please google it first, as you may see if it is accurate or not.

I think I was the one who took time to actually research and list ingredients to all of these "wholesome foods.

One example, corn. I have not googled it, but for what I remember when we studied nutrition, it is very digestible and a good source of energy in the form of carbohydrates. That's interesting....That's why there are so many kernels left in poop...please, show us your google source on this one.
Corn before it is mature is eaten by all wildlife, even coyotes and farm dogs eat it also, as do horses and it is used by the body.
Once corn is mature and hard, it goes partly undigested thru all our digestive systems, as it goes thru too fast if whole, that means not processed or chewed up well, be it humans or any other animal's systems.
The more you process corn, the more your body can use of it, cornbread a good example.:) I don't feed my animals cornbread either.

The digestive system is designated to use what it gets, for each animal a little bit different, but also much similar.

There is so much in what you both are saying that is questionable as facts.
I really think that you should read a little bit more about it in other than the quasi scientific sites you seem to be getting that information from, like holistic, "natural", dog forums and such, where misconceptions abound.


You just want everyone to agree with your points...and most of us disagree...sorry. I trust people who have been breeding show dogs over 20 years before I'll believe an annoymous poster on COTH..sorry.

dalpal
Jan. 11, 2009, 01:13 PM
I just want to make one comment after reading this as this whole thread strikes me as kind of odd in light of the direction of most of the feed for horses discussions on this forum. First I agree that cheap fillers like grains/corn/gluten and garbage in BHA/BHT in dog food is bad for them. I fed Chicken Soup for years and now can't get it anymore for the dogs and I'm switching to Wellness.

It is bad for ANY animal to eat feeds full of fillers and byproducts to include horses and that is my point...and one I rarely see people getting upset about when they feed their processed feeds full of cheap by products like Soy meal and hulls, brewer's dried grains, wheat mids, oat hulls, etc... Molasses is frequently added also to make this mess palatable. It's all junk and like feeding horses potato chips and candy...and we wonder why they get IR and other issues. You are what you eat..literally.

I wonder why there is such a big market for premium and natural dog foods full of wholesome healthy (for dogs) ingredients yet next to nothing for horses?

Ain't that the truth.

Auventera Two
Jan. 11, 2009, 01:46 PM
Actually, a lot of the dog foods aren't even owned by human FOOD corporations. Nutro is now owned by Mars (yep, the chocolate bars). Iams/Eukanuba is owned by Procter & Gamble (you can bet their number one interest isn't pet food). Health Science is owned by Palmolive (personally, I wouldn't want people who's prime interest is soap to be making my dog food).

Again, Natura is actually a family owned company (NOT a huge corporation) based in California, and pet food is ALL they do, so clearly they spend a lot of time and effort trying to find what really is best.

And as far as I know, there has been a lot of research done in the US at major veterinary institutes on canine nutrition that showed that they do NOT NEED carbohydrates in their diet, being carnivores. In the wild, the only form of this they get is from ingesting a prey animal's stomach contents, by which point, most of the carbs/cellulose is already broken down into it's building block components.

Exactly!

Fromm is family owned, all they make is dog and cat food.

lewin
Jan. 11, 2009, 02:07 PM
One example, corn. I have not googled it, but for what I remember when we studied nutrition, it is very digestible and a good source of energy in the form of carbohydrates.
Corn before it is mature is eaten by all wildlife, even coyotes and farm dogs eat it also, as do horses and it is used by the body.
Once corn is mature and hard, it goes partly undigested thru all our digestive systems, as it goes thru too fast if whole, that means not processed or chewed up well, be it humans or any other animal's systems.
The more you process corn, the more your body can use of it, cornbread a good example.:)


Corn is somewhat digestible. And is nutritous to a degree although extremely deficient in lysine. (I have quite a few animal nutrition classes behind me.) I would not mind corn in a feed as long as it was ingredient 30. Not 1,5,and 6. Not half of a daily diet. If corn is such a good ingredient why do companies try to hide it by splitting up the corn into several types so they all travel down the ingredient list.

Also, why does Science Diet try to hide the corn from consumers (if it is so awesome) in their "natural" formula by calling it "Ground Maize" which I find as proof that the company has a COMPLETE lack of ethics toward consumers. (It is in one of the cat formulas. One of their reps tried to talk me into buying their food and swore that the Natures recipe line did not contain corn. She, like many consumers does not know what maize is.)

Auventera Two
Jan. 11, 2009, 02:14 PM
It's kind of funny that the premium dog foods say "Made with whole fresh duck" but Science Diet or Pedigree or Iams don't say "Made from fresh ground corn, powdered cellulose and wheat gluten."

:lol: :lol: :lol:

If these cheap fillers are SO GREAT then they should market them as such! :yes:

Bluey
Jan. 11, 2009, 02:16 PM
---"Umm, no.....I do know what I'm talking about. You just want to argue that you are right and everyone else is wrong...notice that most posters totally disagree with your view."---

Sorry, science facts are not voted on and the majority wins.:lol:

You are right, we will find "kernels" that go thru a digestive system whole if not processed.:yes:
If you read carefully, that is what I said.:)

Moderator 1
Jan. 11, 2009, 03:01 PM
As noted before, pet food can be as hot-button a topic as some of the horse-related ones we deal with on a regular basis here. This does remain a horse forum however, and we won't devote resources toward reffing dog food threads should they get contentious.

This one is verging on that path already, so please tone it down. You're welcome to discuss and share resources, research, etc. (though this is likely far more info than the OP had bargained for ;)), but please keep things pleasant. :winkgrin:

Thanks!
Mod 1

Bluey
Jan. 11, 2009, 03:43 PM
---"Also, why does Science Diet try to hide the corn from consumers (if it is so awesome) in their "natural" formula by calling it "Ground Maize" which I find as proof that the company has a COMPLETE lack of ethics toward consumers. (It is in one of the cat formulas. One of their reps tried to talk me into buying their food and swore that the Natures recipe line did not contain corn. She, like many consumers does not know what maize is.)"---


When farmers speak here, corn is corn and maize is grain sorghum.
I don't know what they are using in the food you are talking about, as you report there, but our grain elevator at times has them named "corn" and "maize" on their blackboard with the prices.

In spanish maiz is corn. Yes, can be confusing.

So, are they trying to confuse, or are they confused?;)

AZ Native
Jan. 11, 2009, 04:27 PM
I learned a long time ago that very few vets know anything about nutrition. Have you ever looked at the labels. I will agree that I would feed Eukanuba over Hill's. To give you an example, here's the ingredients on Hill's Reduced Diet...

Note....50.00 for 17 pounds of this food.....

Chicken By-Product Meal, Brewers Rice, Corn Gluten Meal, Powdered Cellulose 18.8% (source of fiber), Chicken Liver Flavor, Soybean Oil, Calcium Sulfate, Potassium Sulfate, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Taurine, Glyceryl Monostearate, Iodized Salt, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Potassium Chloride, preserved with BHT, BHA and Ethoxyquin, L-Carnitine, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), Beta-Carotene.

Please someone explain to me what ingredients in this bag warrant it costing almost 3.00 per pound???????

Here's the same type in the Iams/Eukanuba line......it's 60.00 for 30 pounds...now I ask again, what ingredients make this worth 2.00 per pound. Yeah, I often go in my cabinet and pull out fresh "Ground Whole Grain Sorghum" and put it in my dog's dish. :confused:

Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Chicken By-Product Meal, Ground Whole Grain Barley, Fish Meal (source of fish oil), Dried Beet Pulp (sugar removed), Natural Chicken Flavor, Gum Arabic, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, a source of vitamin E, and Citric Acid), Dried Egg Product, Fructooligosaccharides, Carboxymethylcellulose, Potassium Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Brewers Dried Yeast, Sodium Hexametaphosphate, Salt, Flax Meal, Choline Chloride, DL-Methionine, Chromium Tripicolinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Beta-Carotene, Zinc Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, L-Carnitine, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Rosemary Extract, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate (source of Vitamin B1), Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement (source of Vitamin B2), Inositol, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Potassium Iodide, Folic Acid, Cobalt Carbonate

I don't care what you feed, so no need for anyone to tell me that I have now beat up anyone's self esteem on the internet......but, if someone is asking questions (as the OP), I will share my opinion.

As for the quality control of Hill's, they were part of the 2007 recall, so I don't think they are top notch there either.


I don't know how anyone can argue with this. It seems like a no brainer to me. Thanks for posting that breakdown.
BTW, thanks to all that have taken the time ( on both threads ) to inform us. I did go to the www.dogfoodananlsis.com website ( it's wonderful !) and changed my dog's food. Now I'm telling my friends and neighbors about what I've learned here.:cool:

I would like to see the answer from the SD rep to this question, please :

'' Please someone explain to me what ingredients in this bag warrant it costing almost 3.00 per pound??????? '', by Dalpal

dalpal
Jan. 11, 2009, 04:29 PM
I don't know how anyone can argue with this. It seems like a no brainer to me. Thanks for posting that breakdown.
BTW, thanks to all that have taken the time ( on both threads ) to inform us. I did go to the www.dogfoodananlsis.com website ( it's wonderful !) and changed my dog's food. Now I'm telling my friends and neighbors about what I've learned here.:cool:


You are certainly welcomed. :yes: So many people took time to educate me and I love helping others.

grayarabpony
Jan. 11, 2009, 05:12 PM
I know so many dogs of all sizes, ages, and breeds that have died of cancer. The 1/2 rottie was only one of them. My dog was an irish setter.

And yet, my family seems to have pretty good luck with animals, fed with food from the grocery store. My family's Cairn Terrier lived almost 16 years, we've had cats live to be 20 and 21 years of age, we had a Jack Russell that lived 20 years, and I have a 15-year-old cat who looks the same as when I picked her up 14 years ago.

Perhaps the commercial dog foods better suit smaller dogs -- could be they are more efficient at digesting food.

I certainly can believe that commercial dog food isn't the best quality, but the strident quality of some of these posts is off-putting. If my animals were dying right and left at a young age -- but they're not.

gypsymare
Jan. 11, 2009, 05:18 PM
Dogs are omnivores. Maybe you have wolf.

"The domestic dog is an extremely close relative of the gray wolf, differing from it by at most 0.2% of mDNA sequence..." -Robert K. Wayne, Ph.D.

They are also of the same genus and species, Canis lupus, under the order of CARNIVORA. They can interbreed and produce fertile offspring. The dog is considered a subspecies of the wolf. C. l. familiaris.

Both the dog and the wolf have teeth that were made for ripping and shearing meat from bone, not grinding up grains as we do. Their body is not designed to produce the enormous levels of enzymes necessary to digest complex carbohydrates as a high percentage of their diet. Which is why so much of it can be found in the stool.

The corporate giants would love to have you believe that dogs are omnivores, but quite simply they are not. You can go to your local feed mill and buy a 50# bag of whole dried corn for $8.00. What would 50lb of dried meat cost you? Increasing the amount of grain skyrockets their profit margins.

I'm not saying every dog needs to eat a grain free diet, but that grains should be fed in moderation and not as the primary staple.

From personal experience I have a Border Collie who was started on Nutro Puppy Chow. I have never seen a dog poop so much. He'd poop twice in the morning less than a half hour apart, two huge piles. Not knowing much about nutrition I switched him to Pro Plan Puppy Chow in anticipation that we were moving in with an adult dog who was eating Pro Plan. The amount of poop was immediately halved while I maintained portions. He eventually went to Pro Plan Lamb & Rice (I was unaware of what brewer's rice really was) and I though I was feeding him an OK food. His coat did not shed out well that summer and it started to turn reddish. So I did some research and started feeding Innova EVO. The difference is incredible. His coat is soft and shiny with minimal shedding outside of the normal shedding season. I only have to feed half as much as I did on Pro Plan.

http://mysite.verizon.net/lereitz/pics/riley.jpg

Over the years I've tried a couple other brands as Innova is not readily available everywhere. For the best in convenience, if you're already ordering SmartPaks, they have their own brand of dog food LiveSmart that is reasonably priced and serving sizes are individually packaged.

dalpal
Jan. 11, 2009, 05:20 PM
And yet, my family seems to have pretty good luck with animals, fed with food from the grocery store. My family's Cairn Terrier lived almost 16 years, we've had cats live to be 20 and 21 years of age, we had a Jack Russell that lived 20 years, and I have a 15-year-old cat who looks the same as when I picked her up 14 years ago.

Perhaps the commercial dog foods better suit smaller dogs -- could be they are more efficient at digesting food.
I certainly can believe that commercial dog food isn't the best quality, but the strident quality of some of these posts is off-putting. If my animals were dying right and left at a young age -- but they're not.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Considering my friend found her terrier mix eating a coyote carcass/and never got sick...you might be on to something with their resilant digestive system.

Same friend had a Lab that lived for 15 years with whatever was on sale at the grocery store.

Just like my dad takes piss poor care of himself and is in his mid 80s and never goes to the doctor/smokes like a chimney.....some are just tougher than others.

Bluey
Jan. 11, 2009, 05:21 PM
And yet, my family seems to have pretty good luck with animals, fed with food from the grocery store. My family's Cairn Terrier lived almost 16 years, we've had cats live to be 20 and 21 years of age, we had a Jack Russell that lived 20 years, and I have a 15-year-old cat who looks the same as when I picked her up 14 years ago.

Perhaps the commercial dog foods better suit smaller dogs -- could be they are more efficient at digesting food.

I certainly can believe that commercial dog food isn't the best quality, but the strident quality of some of these posts is off-putting. If my animals were dying right and left at a young age -- but they're not.

Yes, as I have mentioned already, get those people, that are so sure their dog food is the best and all other will leave dogs looking poorly, all to a large dog show and have them try to guess what anyone there is feeding.;)

Or look at the 200+ dogs in our dog club, plus the thousands over 35+ years that have come to our shows and classes, that have been fed all kinds of ways and look fine.
I am not speaking from hearsay or reading it on someone's site.

I will repeat and leave it at that, this as controversy is not wanted, as the moderator stated, that if a dog is doing well, whatever the owner wants to feed it is good, for that dog.:cool:

dalpal
Jan. 11, 2009, 05:22 PM
Dogs are omnivores. Maybe you have wolf.

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused: I have yet to see any dog food that is just meat....I think they all address "omnivore" diets.

I doubt seriously anyone here owns a wolf.;)

gypsymare
Jan. 11, 2009, 05:24 PM
My parent's last Lab ate driveway gravel and proceeded to poop piles of stones. Paper towels and kleenex were favorites, too.

dalpal
Jan. 11, 2009, 05:29 PM
My parent's last Lab ate driveway gravel and proceeded to poop piles of stones. Paper towels and kleenex were favorites, too.

At least he pooped them. My friend's corgi (same friend with the lab and terrier) was having a terrible time going to the bathroom. They had to take him to the specialty hospital...where they ultrasounded him....they ended up having to go in and remove brick pieces. :eek: He was literally trying to "POOP" a brick..cost her a couple thousand dollars.

Buffyblue
Jan. 11, 2009, 05:56 PM
My friend is using this brand of food for her dogs, and gave me some to try for my Aussies (one is 11 mo. old puppy - other is 9 y.o. adult with sensitive stomach):

http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/products/thrive.shtml

I usually feed them Blue Buffalo and was trying them on Wellness (fish & sweet potato) but gave them some of this tonight and they really liked it! (I think I'm starting to make myself crazy trying to find the perfect food for these two critters!) Thanks. :D

P.S. I think I mentioned before I tried Innova (green bag) and puppy wouldn't eat it and adult dog got really bad diarrhea.

dalpal
Jan. 11, 2009, 05:59 PM
My friend is using this brand of food for her dogs, and gave me some to try for my Aussies (one is 11 mo. old puppy - other is 9 y.o. adult with sensitive stomach):

http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/products/thrive.shtml

I usually feed them Blue Buffalo and was trying them on Wellness (fish & sweet potato) but gave them some of this tonight and they really liked it! (I think I'm starting to make myself crazy trying to find the perfect food for these two critters!) Thanks. :D

P.S. I think I mentioned before I tried Innova (green bag) and puppy wouldn't eat it and adult dog got really bad diarrhea.

Mine did fine on the Reduced Diet Innova.....but had runny stools on the canned Innova.

I've always heard really good things about Honest Kitchen.

Buffyblue
Jan. 11, 2009, 06:45 PM
Thanks Dalpal! I'm not sure what I'm going to do. Let's see how it reacts with their systems, I guess. Of course they ate it in less than a minute and I feel bad that they now have no food to pick at, so just put down a bowl of crunchies. I think I'm going to have a couple of fat Aussies by the time I figure out what to feed them! :eek:

lewin
Jan. 11, 2009, 11:26 PM
---"Also, why does Science Diet try to hide the corn from consumers (if it is so awesome) in their "natural" formula by calling it "Ground Maize" which I find as proof that the company has a COMPLETE lack of ethics toward consumers. (It is in one of the cat formulas. One of their reps tried to talk me into buying their food and swore that the Natures recipe line did not contain corn. She, like many consumers does not know what maize is.)"---


When farmers speak here, corn is corn and maize is grain sorghum.
I don't know what they are using in the food you are talking about, as you report there, but our grain elevator at times has them named "corn" and "maize" on their blackboard with the prices.

In spanish maiz is corn. Yes, can be confusing.

So, are they trying to confuse, or are they confused?;)

In this instance the gound maize is corn. If you read the lower print on their website they re-list it as corn.

http://www.hillspet.com/hillspet/minisite/naturesBest/naturesBestCheckTheLabelFeline.hjsp

Intentionally deceptive attempt to hide less than stellar ingredients.

lewin
Jan. 11, 2009, 11:32 PM
Also from their website:

"Clinically proven:

To provide complete, balanced nutrition
To maintain ideal body weight
To maintain lean muscle and avoid excess body fat
Antioxidants to maintain cellular health because they fight free radicals "

Which states that their research has proved that animals can survive on the food (but not necessarily thrive), if fed the right amount they don't get fat, and that it had antioxidants (which are mostly inactivated by the high-heat processing). I could create a study that proves Mc Donalds does all that for people.

eventmom
Jan. 12, 2009, 08:23 AM
All I can add to this thread is that my dogs LOVE to supliment anything I feed them with horse manure. My vet assures me it is a great source of vegetables:eek: Good thing, cause there ain't much I can do about it:lol:

Auventera Two
Jan. 12, 2009, 10:22 AM
In this instance the gound maize is corn. If you read the lower print on their website they re-list it as corn.

http://www.hillspet.com/hillspet/minisite/naturesBest/naturesBestCheckTheLabelFeline.hjsp

Intentionally deceptive attempt to hide less than stellar ingredients.

One way you can tell this is a low quality food - "animal fat" listed as the 7th ingredient. The "animal fat" is not identified. All fat and meat sources are always well labeled in high quality foods.

Then down a few more you have "chicken liver FLAVOR." Note that it does not say chicken liver. It says chicken liver FLAVOR. So why use an artificial flavoring instead of just using whole chicken livers?

Also I would rather see whole dried eggs, than "dried egg PRODUCT."

The thing is - for the cost of a bag of science diet, you can get a much better food for the same cost, or even cheaper.

grayarabpony
Jan. 12, 2009, 10:35 AM
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Considering my friend found her terrier mix eating a coyote carcass/and never got sick...you might be on to something with their resilant digestive system.

Same friend had a Lab that lived for 15 years with whatever was on sale at the grocery store.

Just like my dad takes piss poor care of himself and is in his mid 80s and never goes to the doctor/smokes like a chimney.....some are just tougher than others.

Yeah, I bet the dog threw that back up later....

Anyway, most dogs ROLL on carcasses -- they don't eat them. Ask me how I know. I still gag when I think of some of those episodes.

Posting Trot
Jan. 12, 2009, 11:09 AM
Just on the maize issue: what we call corn is called maize in much of the rest of the English-speaking world. (Corn is the generic term, meaning grain). So if the company markets to multiple countries, it's possible that they're just trying to use the same label.

I wouldn't necessarily posit a whole conspiracy theory on how they're trying to pull the wool over people's eyes. Let's face it: how many people really read ingredient lists?

Different dogs will do well on different foods. Dogs should also probably be exposed to a wider variety of food--how would you like it if your doctor handed you a bag of dried food (no matter what it was) and said, "Just eat this for the rest of your life and you'll be fine."

I would certainly agree that some foods are better than others, and obviously the melamine contamination pointed out some very poor practices on the parts of various manufacturers (and BTW there are some similarly bad practices in the creation of prepared people food as well).

Auventera Two
Jan. 12, 2009, 11:42 AM
Dogs should also probably be exposed to a wider variety of food--how would you like it if your doctor handed you a bag of dried food (no matter what it was) and said, "Just eat this for the rest of your life and you'll be fine."

You're right. Wild dogs and wolves do have a varied diet, depending on the type of prey they can catch. Dry Fromm is the majority of my dogs' diet, but I also buy the cans which come in pork tenderloin, salmon, tuna, and duck. I rotate those out every day and each dog eats 1/3 of a can with the evening feeding. They also get table scraps, which some people think is horrible. They eat meat scraps, pancakes, soup, pastas, bread, etc. But its not the majority of their diet, and its more of a treat and not a main staple. But everyday they do get something "different" along with the dry food. They also get rawhides and pork hocks.

clint
Jan. 12, 2009, 02:37 PM
I feed my dogs the same way; they get Innova large breed adult food, which is supplemented with appropriate table scraps, rawhides, and beef bones. My dogs were put on Innova when I finally got tired of one of them regularly regurgitating his breakfast shortly after eating it. That was inspirational for reading lables and going to the dog food comparison site, where I was horrified to find out that the expensive Royal Canin food was full of corn, and given 1 star. Since taking them off that food and starting Innova, the vomiting is gone.

When I first got that dog, as a puppy I took him to a vet who was a nutrition fanatic, and told me that he thought so ill of Science Diet foods that if that were the only available dog food, he wouldn't have a dog. I should have paid more attention then to ingredients instead of just ignoring one food.

dalpal
Jan. 12, 2009, 05:22 PM
Yeah, I bet the dog threw that back up later....

Anyway, most dogs ROLL on carcasses -- they don't eat them. Ask me how I know. I still gag when I think of some of those episodes.


ROFL..no, I swear, she never did....she's an inside dog, so they would have known.....she ate it out at the barn, mom found her and swooped her up.....never threw it up.

We were all gagging. And two of us had to go out and pick that nasty thing up and throw it in the garbage bin (outside of course)....It was RANK!!!

I agree with the poster who said that dogs should be exposed to a wide variety of foods 100 percent.

DiablosHalo
Jan. 13, 2009, 10:31 AM
3 of my 4 dogs roll on carcasses all the time! They also roll in fox poop and anything else they can. One of those eats carcasses- but mainly dried up dead birds he finds in the bank barn loft. He did eat a frog one time.. was kinda sick for a day or two after that. Yuck!!!!

Bluey
Jan. 13, 2009, 10:38 AM
3 of my 4 dogs roll on carcasses all the time! They also roll in fox poop and anything else they can. One of those eats carcasses- but mainly dried up dead birds he finds in the bank barn loft. He did eat a frog one time.. was kinda sick for a day or two after that. Yuck!!!!

Our vet has a name for dogs sick from that, "garbage gut".:D

Yes, our vet that is a nutritionist specialist tells us that we should rotate dog foods, whichever kinds that agrees with each dog.
One reason, dogs get used to eat whatever it is served, so they don't become picky eaters that when sick it is hard to keep eating, when they may need it very bad.
Another reason, some foods have certain ingredients, others different ones and to use varied foods insures that a dog will eventually be getting all kinds of what it may need to thrive.

DiablosHalo
Jan. 13, 2009, 10:47 AM
Our vet has a name for dogs sick from that, "garbage gut".:D

Yes, our vet that is a nutritionist specialist tells us that we should rotate dog foods, whichever kinds that agrees with each dog.
One reason, dogs get used to eat whatever it is served, so they don't become picky eaters that when sick it is hard to keep eating, when they may need it very bad.
Another reason, some foods have certain ingredients, others different ones and to use varied foods insures that a dog will eventually be getting all kinds of what it may need to thrive.

haha! We call him "trash can" now bc he eats anything--- but garbage gut is definitely better! I thought I was feeding an "ok" food. Knew it wasn't good, but figured they are in good weight and seem happy. After this thread, I went onto the anaylsis site and found it was a definite one star. :( I went to the buffaloblue web site and got a $5 coupon. I'm going to try to switch them to this food and see how they do...

I liked the Innova EVO also and the Instinct- but for some reason I kept coming back to buffaloblue. Anything has to be better than what I was feeding before (sighs.... beneful..... ugh.....so....ashamed...)....

Bluey
Jan. 13, 2009, 11:53 AM
haha! We call him "trash can" now bc he eats anything--- but garbage gut is definitely better! I thought I was feeding an "ok" food. Knew it wasn't good, but figured they are in good weight and seem happy. After this thread, I went onto the anaylsis site and found it was a definite one star. :( I went to the buffaloblue web site and got a $5 coupon. I'm going to try to switch them to this food and see how they do...

I liked the Innova EVO also and the Instinct- but for some reason I kept coming back to buffaloblue. Anything has to be better than what I was feeding before (sighs.... beneful..... ugh.....so....ashamed...)....

No need to be ashamed of anything, really.
Your dogs were doing fine on it, as are thousands of dogs of people that don't read on the internet, that when it comes to much we do in our lives, tends to be short on science and long on hearsay.
It is the nature of the beast.:winkgrin:

IF your dogs were having a problem, then I would see the need to worry.:yes:

red mare
Jan. 13, 2009, 01:50 PM
My Aussie has been on Blue's Lamb & Rice for over 4 years. I wanted something natural and holistic when I switched from Nutro Natural Choice Puppy to an adult food. I looked at Ultra but then was introduced to Blue Buffalo. He has done very well on it--beautiful coat, small stools, etc.

He weighs 65 lbs. and a 16lb bag lasts me about a month and cost $26 at PetSmart. I feed much less of this product than I did the Natural Choice. I realize there are a lot of natural products on the market now but like I said, he has done well on this for over 4 years.

For the record, Blue is also a family owned company. The man that started the company originally started it because his dog, Blue, was diagnosed with cancer and he wanted to see if diet would help with the prognosis. The dog lived for 6 years longer than expected. Now, I think that's a nice story! They also donate to cancer research for dogs and cats.

Your choice of dog food is very personal but for what it's worth, I highly recommend the Blue product.

DiablosHalo
Jan. 13, 2009, 05:22 PM
I have Aussies too!
Female Tri 11yo
Female Tri 2yo
Male X w/cattle dog 2yo- he's blue in color but build/hair like Aussie. This is the trash can/garbage gut dog! :)
oh..and a 13 coming 14yo Mini Schnauzer

I'm looking into the senior formula also. I'll let you know how they all do...

Blinkers On
Jan. 13, 2009, 06:09 PM
---"Umm, no.....I do know what I'm talking about. You just want to argue that you are right and everyone else is wrong...notice that most posters totally disagree with your view."---

Sorry, science facts are not voted on and the majority wins.:lol:

You are right, we will find "kernels" that go thru a digestive system whole if not processed.:yes:
If you read carefully, that is what I said.:)


No, but all science is subject to interpretation. And that interpretation will support the agenda of the person doing the research.
For instance if SD wants to do a study, their findings will support their stand on their food's quality. If someone who is independent does the study it is quite likely that their findings won't support what SD's nutritional "experts" and scientists find.

And yes, that is what you said.

dalpal
Jan. 13, 2009, 06:23 PM
No, but all science is subject to interpretation. And that interpretation will support the agenda of the person doing the research.
For instance if SD wants to do a study, their findings will support their stand on their food's quality. If someone who is independent does the study it is quite likely that their findings won't support what SD's nutritional "experts" and scientists find.

And yes, that is what you said.

Exactly. :yes:

Dang, I had missed her whirling insult about my reading comp skills this time since I have put her on the Ignore list...LOL! Funny, how she is accusing everyone else of "bashing" on this thread....Pot, meet kettle.

Bluey
Jan. 13, 2009, 06:37 PM
Exactly. :yes:

Dang, I had missed her whirling insult about my reading comp skills this time since I have put her on the Ignore list...LOL! Funny, how she is accusing everyone else of "bashing" on this thread....Pot, meet kettle.

I think that someone's point is moot if they can't stand behind it.
We can't stand behind something if we don't hear the other side.:confused:

No wonder you kept repeating what had been explained was not as you thought.:p

gammillgirl
Jan. 18, 2009, 11:13 AM
I just want to say that after reading this thread, I went to google IAMS, the dog food that my dogs have done wonderful on, this is the link I came across. I can't afford to feed my dogs the "best" I have 2 90lb GSDs. However I do want to feed them a good middle of the road food. Something that is good for them, but something that won't leave me broke (I still have a family to feed)

http://www.iamscruelty.com/

sisu27
Jan. 18, 2009, 12:11 PM
Well... our dogs are on Science Diet, the Hills W/D. Has worked absolute wonders with both of them. Java was diagnosed years ago with bladder stones. Has had surgery at least twice. The W/D keeps things in check and doesn't cause the issues like the old food did (forgot what that was, as she's now 10 years old...).

Tucker is allergic to everything under the sun. Was actually doing quite well on Nature's Balance (I think) Duck and Potato. Slowly switched him over to the W/D as well and no issues, whatsoever. This is a dog who will have diarrhea if you look at him wrong. He seems to be getting along just fine now on a 100% W/D diet.

Both dogs are happy and healthy. Tucker gets bloodwork done annually, as he's hypothyroid and I'm a paronoid owner (worked at a vet for too many years). He's doing quite well and actually maintains his weight quite well... if not a bit of a hard keeper, persay. But, I think that's only because he's running 90 miles an hour when he's not sleeping.

So, personally, I have no issues with SD. I don't think it's a horrible food even if it had known carciogens in it. What would you suggest we feed two dogs with known medical issues? Tucker can't tolerate beef or chicken, however he does well with the W/D which is mostly chicken. Whatever. Did well on the Duck and Potato, but that started to cause loose stools again. Other dog has history of bladder stones.

Anyways, I do prefer to feed better foods then Hills. But it works for mine. Heck, the cats are one the same food, Hills W/D for cats. Because both of them have histories of UTIs. Lovely.

Oh well. They are happy, healthy, in good weight, and always get the thumbs up from the vet. I'm pleased.

Good question. My Dobe has been on W/D for years due to Chronic Active Pancreatitis and is going to the vet tomorrow for a TLI work-up. I am sure regardless of the outcome the vet will insist I continue to feed the W/D. This dog has some things going on and he is old for a dobe (8yoish) but although this food doesn't kill him I have doubted for years that it does him any good. He is gassey (excessive even for a dobe) and his coat is horrible (rough, dry, coarse and he sheds profusely). He gets 8 cups a day and the 30lb bag is $90 something (lasts about 3 weeks). If I thought this was the very best thing for him to be eating I would not care about the price but I get the distinct impression the food is shite and overpriced. So what the hell do I feed him? Raw? This dog has also had bloat/torsion surgery and has a pexy so I am always terrified to rock the boat also known as his digestive system. Please help food gurus cause I am at a loss.:(

grayarabpony
Jan. 18, 2009, 12:48 PM
If your dog has chronic pancreatitis the last thing you want to do is to feed him raw. There's the risk of him picking up salmonella and other nasty bacteria.

Bluey
Jan. 18, 2009, 12:56 PM
If your dog has chronic pancreatitis the last thing you want to do is to feed him raw. There's the risk of him picking up salmonella and other nasty bacteria.

That is one consideration.:yes:

If you think your dog is looking poorly, have you asked your vet about it?
If your vet doesn't give you a good answer, ask that it check with a specialist vet, in case there is something else you could be feeding or adding to the food.:)

Our first dobie was of european working lines and had a thicker, duller coat, that shedded more, like a terrier, almost a little bit roaned on the black.
The second one, an american bred, had a beautiful thin coat you could see yourself in like a mirror.
Both had the same management, food, etc.
Did your dobie had the great coat before it got sick?

Auventera Two
Jan. 18, 2009, 04:13 PM
I just want to say that after reading this thread, I went to google IAMS, the dog food that my dogs have done wonderful on, this is the link I came across. I can't afford to feed my dogs the "best" I have 2 90lb GSDs. However I do want to feed them a good middle of the road food. Something that is good for them, but something that won't leave me broke (I still have a family to feed)

http://www.iamscruelty.com/

Iams is owned by Proctor and Gamble, who have long practiced the most horrific and agregious acts of cruelty to animals in the name of research. I will not buy ANYTHING produced by Proctor and Gamble.

If you've been feeding Iams and affording it, then you can afford many of the better dog foods out there.

sisu27
Jan. 18, 2009, 07:42 PM
That is one consideration.:yes:

If you think your dog is looking poorly, have you asked your vet about it?
If your vet doesn't give you a good answer, ask that it check with a specialist vet, in case there is something else you could be feeding or adding to the food.:)

Our first dobie was of european working lines and had a thicker, duller coat, that shedded more, like a terrier, almost a little bit roaned on the black.
The second one, an american bred, had a beautiful thin coat you could see yourself in like a mirror.
Both had the same management, food, etc.
Did your dobie had the great coat before it got sick?


He has an appointment tomorrow morning with his vet and I will ask about diet. I have little faith in vets nutritional advice as this dog bloated because of a food his previous vet insisted he could eat. Within 1/2 an hour of eating the food he looked like he had a medicine ball in his gut. It was the worst bloat I have ever seen. Thank God I didn't feed him and run out the door because he would have met a horrible end and I would have probably murdered the vet. Anyways...I agree that all dobes have different coats. The female we also have has that short, velvety coat that never sheds and my boy has a coarser, longer coat, almost more Rottie-like. It has gotten worse in recent months though. I would like to be able to even cut back on the W/D and add some fresh meat/veggies. Is it really that much of a danger to feed raw? I know plenty of people who feed it and I've never heard of a dog getting poisened. Thanks all.

AiryFairy
Jan. 18, 2009, 09:41 PM
This dog has some things going on and he is old for a dobe (8yoish) but although this food doesn't kill him I have doubted for years that it does him any good. He is gassey (excessive even for a dobe) and his coat is horrible (rough, dry, coarse and he sheds profusely). He gets 8 cups a day and the 30lb bag is $90 something (lasts about 3 weeks). If I thought this was the very best thing for him to be eating I would not care about the price but I get the distinct impression the food is shite and overpriced. So what the hell do I feed him?

IMO 8 cups of anything a day sounds like way too much food, that sounds like a bloat danger right there. Do you have to feed him that much to keep his weight up? I had two dogs, granted they were sighthounds and not high energy, 85 and 90lbs, and they each maintained on 2c per day of Innova. No gas, ever, and no skin problems, they thrived on it. It's good wholesome food and they now have a low fat version (compare the list of ingredients to that of W/D, it's gagworthy).
http://www.innovapet.com/product_line.asp?id=1411

I think I pay around $40 for a 33lb bag of the regular in the green bag, very reasonable compared to Hills bag o' garbage. BTW, with sighthounds that are bloat prone, I keep Gas-X (generic simethicone) in my first aid kit - check it out with your vet as to safety with the pancreas issues, knock wood I've never had a bloat but I may have prevented some problems by giving a few tabs of it.

wilkins2
Jan. 19, 2009, 12:26 AM
I didn't go through all these posts so here it goes... We feed Taste of the Wild to 2 hound mixes. Well, actually one is a very rare:winkgrin: red beagle, he gets 1/2 heaping cut am and pm. He could probably do fine on a level cup btw. He weighs just over 30 # and needs to lose a few.
The other is a hound rott mix? who nows for sure. He is 75# and gets 1 1/2cups am/pm level. He has been thinner but looks good. They do get a few treats, not much and they get carrots, broc stems etc when I am cooking. Expensive but they don't get too much and their coats are great. The larger hound came to us very thin and allergic to beef. Yes, we though he outgrew the allergy and gave him beef food and his coat fell out:eek: Not again, thank you very much but he even tolerates the bison and venison food now!

Just my 2cents. My dogs' coats are great, shiny and they are very healthy, knock on wood!

Sheryl

grayarabpony
Jan. 19, 2009, 12:43 AM
Is it really that much of a danger to feed raw? I know plenty of people who feed it and I've never heard of a dog getting poisened. Thanks all.

Ponyfixer (a vet) just posted the other day that she is seeing an increase in dogs having salonella poisoning and being carriers with the raw diets. With your dog's health not being optimal in the first place, raw meat probably would not be the best thing for him.

My husband's aunt's bulldog got into some bad meat some years ago and nearly died of acute pancreatitis. He survived and then succumbed a few years later to pancreatic cancer. Salmonella food poisoning can lead to an acute attack of pancreatitis, so I'd think that would be something you'd really want to avoid in a dog with a chronic problem.

BoysNightOut
Jan. 19, 2009, 11:16 AM
Disclosure: I am not going to get into the heated discussion going on, because I have my own opinions and don't feel like arguing. I don't care what everybody else feeds, what they think of what I feed, etc. I feed my dog what I feed based on my vet's advice (which I trust), and what I've seen work with my dog.


To the OP: I feed Science Diet Active Fitness. My dog has a beautiful coat, lot's of energy, and is very healthy. She keeps a great weight on too. It's what I'd recommend.

Good luck with your new dogs! :)

AZ Native
Jan. 19, 2009, 12:22 PM
Among the really wonderful information I found on www.dogfoodanalysis.com,
was this interesting article about occasionally changing your dogs food and good reasons for doing so.

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/how-often-should-i-change-foods.html

MSP
Jan. 20, 2009, 04:32 PM
I have been feeding Hills Prescription h/d for years now and it did seem to help my dog with heart issues. It was on the advise of my vet.

Over Christmas I caught the tail end of a comment from DH's cousin that went something like this "have you read the ingredients on your dog food". There was some kidding and ribbing that went on but I had to stop and think to my self "no" I have never read the ingredients! Shame on me but what am I buying that cost $40 for a 20 lb bag of dog food?

Basically it is fillers fortified with vitamins and minerals and then sold for top dollar. Yes, it might be the correct nutritional balance my dog needs but how close to man made nutrition is that? What I know it boiled down to is a big company squeezing the max profits out of its product.

Well, NO THANK YOU! I am searching for a new food for my dogs to start with and then I will deal with the cats. I love that there is so much to choose from but unfortunately they are not all available to me. I picked up a bag of Nutra Adult to try and I think my Coop sells that Chicken soup brand some have mentioned.

I read the ingredients now and I like the idea of switching food! Not sure what to do about the cats! I feed Purina Complete and Friskies can food mostly because I am probably feeding every stray in the area and I go through a lot of food! Any suggestions for the best affordable cat food would be very welcome.

ponygirl
Jan. 22, 2009, 05:20 PM
MSP- I have 2 indoor cats. One, the older cat, has a history of FLUTD with struvite crystals. I have had him on Science Diet CD for years due to his issues and it was what was recommended. Young Kitty #2 was getting Blue Buffalo. The difference in the hair coats and general appearance of both cats was very significant. So, I found a food also recommended by vets for cats with FLUTD but is fine for the younger cat. That is EVO. Older cat doing beautifully on it and his hair coat is looking a lot better! It's comparable in price to the CD I was feeding.

BuddyRoo
Jan. 22, 2009, 06:40 PM
I've been a little tied up with other things so I haven't responded (my apologies to those who asked me direct questions).

As I mentioned back on page one, I worked with a veterinarian with a masters in pet nutrition for nearly 10 years and I am now also a rep for SD foods (and am also certified by Hills regarding their prescription diet foods).

I have found the discussion here very interesting. I applaud those of you who are doing your research! I think it's great!

It's neat to see how people interpret data.

I've forwarded a link to this thread to my supervisor in hopes that it may get passed on to corporate. I think a lot of the points you guys have made regarding pet food should be answered--with INDEPENDENT empirical data.

The neat thing is, the independent empirical data is out there...so maybe I can stop back in with some answers and clarification with regards to pet foods at a later date.

I get to be present for a birth tomorrow (I'm the support person!) and have a busy schedule over the weekend, but maybe I can address some things next week.

It's been a neat exercise to read people's stories, concerns, questions, etc. You all are clearly very interested in meeting your pets' needs and being educated about products. I think that's terrific.

Crooked Horse
Jan. 22, 2009, 08:40 PM
I doubt seriously anyone here owns a wolf.;)

Oh, oh I do!

Well, he's half wolf. I came to this thread late and haven't read all of the responses, but he cannot digest corn. That's a fact. He gets EVO.

Bluey
Jan. 22, 2009, 09:57 PM
Oh, oh I do!

Well, he's half wolf. I came to this thread late and haven't read all of the responses, but he cannot digest corn. That's a fact. He gets EVO.

My GSD mix growing up was half wolf, real wolf from the mountains.
He looked like a GSD, except he was a little bit leggier and had something odd about his head, not quite GSD, but could pass for one.
He thankfully inherited 100% GSD temperament and other characteristics.

We didn't have dog food in those days, so he lived to old age on boiled rice with some meat scraps from the butcher, that we cooked for him in a large pot every two days.
The meats were mostly lungs and such, that were not human food.
He also got the rare scraps from our table, but we didn't really leave much, food being scarce, other than we kids and our father snook under the table to him.;)
He loved to eat on his own much of the garden produce, tomatoes his favorite, along with very ripe black figs, didn't really care for the green ones.

Many dogs, as people, are very resilient and will do well with most anything to eat.:yes:

dalpal
Jan. 22, 2009, 11:22 PM
Oh, oh I do!

Well, he's half wolf. I came to this thread late and haven't read all of the responses, but he cannot digest corn. That's a fact. He gets EVO.

Oh my gosh, do you really????? Must share pics.

dalpal
Jan. 22, 2009, 11:28 PM
He has an appointment tomorrow morning with his vet and I will ask about diet. I have little faith in vets nutritional advice as this dog bloated because of a food his previous vet insisted he could eat. Within 1/2 an hour of eating the food he looked like he had a medicine ball in his gut. It was the worst bloat I have ever seen. Thank God I didn't feed him and run out the door because he would have met a horrible end and I would have probably murdered the vet. Anyways...I agree that all dobes have different coats. The female we also have has that short, velvety coat that never sheds and my boy has a coarser, longer coat, almost more Rottie-like. It has gotten worse in recent months though. I would like to be able to even cut back on the W/D and add some fresh meat/veggies. Is it really that much of a danger to feed raw? I know plenty of people who feed it and I've never heard of a dog getting poisened. Thanks all.


SiSi...at 8 years of age and having health issues....I'd really research it before considering trying raw for your dog. I use raw myself and love it for my three, but I pay very close attention to what I'm feeding....I don't just go buy what's on sale at the grocery store....I do think that is more risky.

You might want to considered canned. I prefer canned to kibble, as it is less processed and they are getting moisture. I have a dog who tends to get gassy and have stomach issues....once I stopped feeding kibble (used canned first, then went to raw), the cramping stopped.

Crooked Horse
Jan. 23, 2009, 12:25 AM
Here he is...on the coffee table...

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/2crookedhorses/Coffeetable.jpg


And on the sofa...

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/2crookedhorses/SikkoNov.jpg

Crooked Horse
Jan. 23, 2009, 12:28 AM
Bluey, our guy loves fresh food and would love it if that were all I fed him! He's very interested in a variety of things in his diet and if I try to just give him dog food he'll walk away from it, LOL.

Bluey
Jan. 23, 2009, 08:24 AM
Wow, that is a beautiful dog and does look some like a wolf.
I have seen two wolves here, as they were traveling thru and they are lean, lanky, heavier and fluffier in front, scrawier behind and kind of mangy looking.
I guess they don't get as good a nutrition as your dog gets.;)

Alagirl
Jan. 23, 2009, 12:05 PM
Unless something has drasticly changed in the last 10 years, there is no definitive study as to what food is best.

I have heard the range from 'only quality kibble' to'I'd rather shoot my dog before I feed them that!'

I have heard about 'Satin's Balls' which is 10lbs ground beef, a large box of total cereal, 10 envelopes of gelatine powder, 10 eggs a box of wheat germ (as I recall it) and all mixed together, I think I got everything, but I can double check. I have not tried it myself, and the chance of over feeding is supposedly high.( sounds good enough to make meat loaf out of it....)

I fed my dogs walmart brand lamb and rice (btw, when adding rice to the diet, I'd use brown rice....added nutrience) and they did fine. being small/medium and older at the time they each got 2 cups a day, one in the AM, one in the PM.

BARF (Bones And Raw Food) is reputed to be great - not everybody's thing, but good. My friend feeds her dog home cooked, the stuff she eats herself. But since she is allergic to everything and watches closely what she eats, her dog might be eating better than commercial grade.

EponaRoan
Jan. 23, 2009, 02:56 PM
I have heard about 'Satin's Balls' which is 10lbs ground beef, a large box of total cereal, 10 envelopes of gelatine powder, 10 eggs a box of wheat germ (as I recall it) and all mixed together, I think I got everything, but I can double check. I have not tried it myself, and the chance of over feeding is supposedly high.( sounds good enough to make meat loaf out of it....)

Satin Balls are more for weight gain/sick dog. I wouldn't generally feed it to a normal/healthy dog.

I've used them to put weight on one dog post surgery for an abdominal obstruction and also when I got a new dog in who was underweight & didn't have good appetite at the time (now she's a chowhound! :lol: ). But they don't get them otherwise.

http://www.njboxers.com/satin-balls-recipe.htm

I think it's too high fat as the only food choice.

Bluey
Jan. 23, 2009, 03:52 PM
Satin Balls are more for weight gain/sick dog. I wouldn't generally feed it to a normal/healthy dog.

I've used them to put weight on one dog post surgery for an abdominal obstruction and also when I got a new dog in who was underweight & didn't have good appetite at the time (now she's a chowhound! :lol: ). But they don't get them otherwise.

http://www.njboxers.com/satin-balls-recipe.htm

I think it's too high fat as the only food choice.

Satin balls are used by show dog handlers for those dogs that won't eat on the road.
Dogs seem to like eating regular food again, once they are started on them, they stimulate appetite.

We need something like that for sick horses that need to eat but don't feel like it.:yes:

Alagirl
Jan. 23, 2009, 04:55 PM
Satin Balls are more for weight gain/sick dog. I wouldn't generally feed it to a normal/healthy dog.

I've used them to put weight on one dog post surgery for an abdominal obstruction and also when I got a new dog in who was underweight & didn't have good appetite at the time (now she's a chowhound! :lol: ). But they don't get them otherwise.

http://www.njboxers.com/satin-balls-recipe.htm

I think it's too high fat as the only food choice.


well, if you substitude cheap beef with something else and grind it up...you can throw 10 pound of chicken in a grinder just as well.

But if I remember correctly, the lady who cooked that up noted that it's so tasty that it's easy to overfeed, hence the weight gain.

Minus the eggshells, plus some spices, it sounds like it would be a good meatloaf...

onelanerode
Jan. 23, 2009, 05:33 PM
I did research on dog foods when we first got Truman, our 55-pound neutered Lab/GR/hound mix in September 2007. We initially had him on Canidae ALS, which he did well on, but when we added Winston, a 40-pound Pit/Lab/??? mix a few months later, he had itchy, flaky skin on this food.

Our vet practice sells and highly recommends Science Diet/Prescription Diet foods, but I've not been keen on feeding things like "dried potato product" and "chicken byproduct meal," and I've not been impressed when the protein source is third or lower on the ingredients list.

We eventually put Winston on California Natural lamb and rice and Truman on California Natural herring and sweet potato, and with their current body conditions, I'm not sure what we could improve. Coats are thick, soft and shiny, skin is not flaky, itchy or dry, no gunky ears, no paw-licking, no sores around the chin/mouth, energy level is high, attitude is good, etc.

Truman: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rambleon/3213271907/sizes/l/

Winston: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rambleon/2880323575/sizes/l/

I'd love to know why so many vets in my area (central N.C.) push the Hill's products so hard when the company does not appear to use very high-quality ingredients and the products are more expensive than many premium foods with higher-quality ingredients.

I even had the vet who owns the practice admit that the Science Diet prescription foods were expensive enough to turn off some clients, and we had a nice discussion about what I fed and why. He was genuinely impressed with Winston's overall appearance and asked me what I fed, and he was not familiar with California Natural but took down the name and the names of a few local shops that sold it and said he was interested in learning more about it.

I've only run across one vet in the practice (I think there are six) who was familiar with CN and acknowledged it to be a good food. It puzzles me why more vets aren't aware of premium foods; both of our dogs had allergy issues that initially were treated through drugs (prednisone, benadryl, chlorpheniramine), ear washes/meds (Otomax, Malacetic, Oticlens) and supplements (DermCaps), but once we switched to the CN foods, all the allergy issues resolved and neither dog is on meds/supplements of any kind.

Alagirl
Jan. 23, 2009, 07:34 PM
My information is a bit old, but i was told Hill Science is the company that sponsors the short and questionable nutricion class in vet school. That was the reason why vets sell it.

If I ever strike it rich, I will conduct a large scale study on dog food.

(Oh, btw, I was also told that some petfood companies have stricter rules about their ingredience than human food companies...if it's true? I don't know)

IrishRydr
Jan. 23, 2009, 11:59 PM
I was actually about to switch my Irish Wolfhound puppy to Science Diet Large Breed Puppy from her usual Eukanuba Large Breed Puppy, before reading this thread. I certainly don't want to give her a known carcinogen!!! I know she MUST be on a large breed formula of some brand due to her size. My big issue with Eukanuba is that she has loose stools in enormous amounts. Any recommendations on a large breed formula that is less likely to cause this problem and WON'T give her cancer? Thanks! :)

Simkie
Jan. 24, 2009, 12:04 AM
I was actually about to switch my Irish Wolfhound puppy to Science Diet Large Breed Puppy from her usual Eukanuba Large Breed Puppy, before reading this thread. I certainly don't want to give her a known carcinogen!!! I know she MUST be on a large breed formula of some brand due to her size. My big issue with Eukanuba is that she has loose stools in enormous amounts. Any recommendations on a large breed formula that is less likely to cause this problem and WON'T give her cancer? Thanks! :)

Innova does make a large breed formula.

I would be more inclined to give her California Natural, though, with her loose stool issues. You really don't need to feed a labeled "large breed" diet when feeding a high quality food.

etc.
Jan. 24, 2009, 12:04 AM
The Petsmart store brand "Authority" help put weight on my dog. It also did not aggravate the skin allergies in my other dog,

IrishRydr
Jan. 24, 2009, 10:49 AM
Thanks, Simkie! The California Natural looks like really good dog food! I never heard of it before. I think I'm going to give it a try. :D

dalpal
Jan. 24, 2009, 11:33 PM
I was actually about to switch my Irish Wolfhound puppy to Science Diet Large Breed Puppy from her usual Eukanuba Large Breed Puppy, before reading this thread. I certainly don't want to give her a known carcinogen!!! I know she MUST be on a large breed formula of some brand due to her size. My big issue with Eukanuba is that she has loose stools in enormous amounts. Any recommendations on a large breed formula that is less likely to cause this problem and WON'T give her cancer? Thanks! :)


I have a friend who breeds Wolfhounds. I know she feeds Taste of the Wild. PM me if you want her email. She is super sweet/knowledageable and always happy to help.