Help me understand training level concepts

[didgery]

How would an intermediate (training level) rider use the inside rein in these two scenarios? What differences would exist in the use of rein, leg and weight aids between the two? What exercises would be helpful in each of the two situations to help horse and/or rider advance?

1) Well trained horse, responsive to the aids, naturally flexible and forward and with an understanding of first and second level dressage.

2) Green mature horse, very pghlegmatic, more stiff than flexible. Has basic walk/trot/canter skills, needs encouragement to go forward but is starting to prove able to work from behind, seek contact and go in a long and low frame with good forward energy when asked.

Thanks, guys!

[Eclectic Horseman]

You use your aids in the same way.

With horse #1, you are trying to keep your hands down, together, closed and with the thumbs on top and to whisper your aids. You may need the inside rein, either giving or taking, directly or indirectly to create flexion and bend in order to straighten the horse.

With horse #2, you may have TO SHOUT WITH YOUR AIDS until he "hears" them. You may need to keep your hands further apart or move them up or down to keep a steady feel of the bit until the horse accepts the contact. You may need to give a wide, open leading inside rein to get the horse to accept the outside rein and create flexion and bend.

[slc2]

How would an intermediate (training level) rider use the inside rein in these two scenarios? What differences would exist in the use of rein, leg and weight aids between the two? What exercises would be helpful in each of the two situations to help horse and/or rider advance?

1) Well trained horse, responsive to the aids, naturally flexible and forward and with an understanding of first and second level dressage.

2) Green mature horse, very pghlegmatic, more stiff than flexible. Has basic walk/trot/canter skills, needs encouragement to go forward but is starting to prove able to work from behind, seek contact and go in a long and low frame with good forward energy when asked.

I don't agree with the above, about widening the hands, or even, about 'shouting' with the hands.

I think the two statements you hear most often from good trainers are, 'all horses are all always ridden the same way' and 'don't let him talk you into riding badly'.

Don't ride defensively. Ask them all in the same way, starting with a soft, subtle signal, and escalate - a green horse, an excited horse, a tuned-out or not quite totally believing you trained horse all are ridden in a 'baby way to a big boy way', trying a soft, subtle aid, and always being ready to 'repeat, reinforce, and escalate'.

With horse #1, you are trying to keep your hands down, together, closed and with the thumbs on top and to whisper your aids. You may need the inside rein, either giving or taking, directly or indirectly to create flexion and bend in order to straighten the horse.

--I think it's a little too simple, the trained horse is not necessarily always going to be on the lightest of subtle aids, 'first and second level' are points at which the horse is barely trained in the most basic things, and he's still going to need some very, very clever and reactive response from his rider and as his ability to connect with the bit and step into the reins is developing, and his half halts are just rudimentary, the aids are very barely starting to diagonalize and the work is still very basic, his responses are hardly always going to be so delicate and perfect all the time.

With horse #2, you may have TO SHOUT WITH YOUR AIDS until he "hears" them. You may need to keep your hands further apart or move them up or down to keep a steady feel of the bit until the horse accepts the contact. You may need to give a wide, open leading inside rein to get the horse to accept the outside rein and create flexion and bend.

--NO. I don't believe in keepign the hands further apart with the youngsters (yes I will get snarked at for saying so). And I don't believe that because a horse is a little stiff and heavy that he needs someone shouting at him via the reins, quite the contrary.

--If a youngster is heavy and unresponsive, it has nothing to do with him being green or a youngster, it is the rider riding incorrectly, without keeping his horse light and forward, or being 'in self carriage' himself, instead he's balancing on his hands and not giving the horse an opportunity to be light - if the horse is a very heavy fronted, weakly haunched animal and people are expecting him to be as light as a feather by 'shouting' their aids at him, all they will wind up with is a crooked horse behind the bit.

--Riding lessons, from a skilled dressage trainer who gives frequent and frank feedback, not formulas off the internet that oversimplify and generalize far too much.

[sm]

the green horse will find it easier to work in small circles. But this whole equitation crap thing you have going is completely besides the point.

As suggested already, get yourself a trainer who can see you on the ground. You most probably will be creating balance problems that does not allow either horse to perform adequately.

Some suggested readings if you don't want to spend a ton of money on books and videos for training level basics (I would spend on a trainer first):

http://www.ridingart.com/riding-basics.htm
http://www.ridingart.com/contact.htm
http://www.ridingart.com/visual-points.htm
http://www.ridingart.com/energy_flow.htm

good luck!

[didgery]

Thanks - I have been taking a few lessons lately and have been trying to understand what another trainer had asked me to work on last year (on horse #1) compared with what the current trainer is telling me (on horse #2). I was trying to figure out if the different messages had more to do with the needs of the horse, with how I was riding, or with how the trainer approaches things. I'm thinking it's more the latter than anything else.

My point of confusion came from the way I have been told to use my inside rein (ranging from "don't use it at all, throw it away, never touch it" to "steady contact on both reins, with the inside rein asking for flexion and bend."

[slc2]

But it depends not just on which horse it is, but which day it is, and what's going on!

The same instructor teaching the same rider on the same horse may have the student do both in the same lesson!

It just depends on what's going on!

There is no formula to follow, you have to do what needs to be done. If you are overusing the inside rein the instructor is going to tell you not to use it! The two things you describe are both legitimate things for an instructor to tell you to do, there isn't any 'conflict' to 'resolve'.

[Leena]

My point of confusion came from the way I have been told to use my inside rein (ranging from "don't use it at all, throw it away, never touch it" to "steady contact on both reins, with the inside rein asking for flexion and bend."


It is a confusion for a lot of rider...including me ! We have been told so many things over the years.

What you have to learn is how to stay on steady contact on both rein while using them for different purpose. Also do not forget that your legs are always supporting your rein communication...In fact with the reins, you are telling the horse to pay attention.

I am riding a very green horse right now so he has to respect the aids....I need to educate him to focus on my aids and accept them. Yes steady contact but use of half halt differently when asked from the outside reins than inside rein

I am not sure if I say it correctly here ??? It is so hard to express things correctly...

[Ambrey]

My point of confusion came from the way I have been told to use my inside rein (ranging from "don't use it at all, throw it away, never touch it" to "steady contact on both reins, with the inside rein asking for flexion and bend."

My impression is that inside rein asks for flexion, not bend. If horse 1 had plenty with light contact, then fine. If horse 2 needs more help, then that's what you do.

But I've never ridden a horse1, so what do I know.

I thought bend was supposed to come from inside leg and outside rein. However, it won't extend to the head if there isn't flexion and a relaxed poll, so the inside rein is part of it, but you aren't specifically using to bend.

So anyway, my horse is more like horse2. I pulse the inside rein to keep him flexed in the poll and jaw (not sure of the terminology here). After a lot of warm-up, sometimes he is so soft that I can ride with just light contact on that inside rein and not "use" it for anything.

[goeslikestink]

look here at helpful liinks
and click on the links on the 1st post then read the rest make sure you click onto the links in the 1st one as they explin the walk the trot and the canter

and pay perticular attention to meredithmanor link
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=178116

[Justmyluck]

How would an intermediate (training level) rider use the inside rein in these two scenarios? What differences would exist in the use of rein, leg and weight aids between the two? What exercises would be helpful in each of the two situations to help horse and/or rider advance?

1) Well trained horse, responsive to the aids, naturally flexible and forward and with an understanding of first and second level dressage.

2) Green mature horse, very pghlegmatic, more stiff than flexible. Has basic walk/trot/canter skills, needs encouragement to go forward but is starting to prove able to work from behind, seek contact and go in a long and low frame with good forward energy when asked.

I don't agree with the above, about widening the hands, or even, about 'shouting' with the hands.

I think the two statements you hear most often from good trainers are, 'all horses are all always ridden the same way' and 'don't let him talk you into riding badly'.

Don't ride defensively. Ask them all in the same way, starting with a soft, subtle signal, and escalate - a green horse, an excited horse, a tuned-out or not quite totally believing you trained horse all are ridden in a 'baby way to a big boy way', trying a soft, subtle aid, and always being ready to 'repeat, reinforce, and escalate'.

With horse #1, you are trying to keep your hands down, together, closed and with the thumbs on top and to whisper your aids. You may need the inside rein, either giving or taking, directly or indirectly to create flexion and bend in order to straighten the horse.

--I think it's a little too simple, the trained horse is not necessarily always going to be on the lightest of subtle aids, 'first and second level' are points at which the horse is barely trained in the most basic things, and he's still going to need some very, very clever and reactive response from his rider and as his ability to connect with the bit and step into the reins is developing, and his half halts are just rudimentary, the aids are very barely starting to diagonalize and the work is still very basic, his responses are hardly always going to be so delicate and perfect all the time.

With horse #2, you may have TO SHOUT WITH YOUR AIDS until he "hears" them. You may need to keep your hands further apart or move them up or down to keep a steady feel of the bit until the horse accepts the contact. You may need to give a wide, open leading inside rein to get the horse to accept the outside rein and create flexion and bend.

--NO. I don't believe in keepign the hands further apart with the youngsters (yes I will get snarked at for saying so). And I don't believe that because a horse is a little stiff and heavy that he needs someone shouting at him via the reins, quite the contrary.

--If a youngster is heavy and unresponsive, it has nothing to do with him being green or a youngster, it is the rider riding incorrectly, without keeping his horse light and forward, or being 'in self carriage' himself, instead he's balancing on his hands and not giving the horse an opportunity to be light - if the horse is a very heavy fronted, weakly haunched animal and people are expecting him to be as light as a feather by 'shouting' their aids at him, all they will wind up with is a crooked horse behind the bit.

--Riding lessons, from a skilled dressage trainer who gives frequent and frank feedback, not formulas off the internet that oversimplify and generalize far too much.

Are you my trainer?

[slc2]

No, yours and mine just went to the same school, :D

[sm]

Thanks - I have been taking a few lessons lately and have been trying to understand what another trainer had asked me to work on last year (on horse #1) compared with what the current trainer is telling me (on horse #2). I was trying to figure out if the different messages had more to do with the needs of the horse, with how I was riding, or with how the trainer approaches things. I'm thinking it's more the latter than anything else.

My point of confusion came from the way I have been told to use my inside rein (ranging from "don't use it at all, throw it away, never touch it" to "steady contact on both reins, with the inside rein asking for flexion and bend."

On either horse you need to ride the energy from the back to the front, and the horse should be soft, supple and seeking contact with the bit. With a green horse it's really not fair to the horse, because he doesn't know what correct is and neither do you. So there's going to be a lot of bobbling about with a confused horse who is going to take longer to relax and seek the bit.

If possible ride with an experienced horse until you get it, it's usually a light bulb moment. However, you ALWAYS need to think of energy coming from the back towards the front (that's why I gave you all those links to read) -- if you position the horse from the front and hold the head/neck it will be wrong. The horse will not be free in the back and moving correctly with the hind legs.

[Ambrey]

On either horse you need to ride the energy from the back to the front, and the horse should be soft, supple and seeking contact with the bit.

This is the goal in dressage, but nobody starts there ;) That, to me, is like saying to a person in weightlifting training "the goal is to lift 900 lbs" and show them a 900 lb weight and think that somehow they're gonna know how to get there on their own.

[Equibrit]

EVERYBODY should start there - otherwise there is no going forward.

[Ambrey]

Everybody, when they first get on a horse, should know how to direct the energy from back to front and get the horse soft, supple, and seeking contact?

Seriously?

[Equibrit]

Everybody, when they first get on a horse, should know how to direct the energy from back to front and get the horse soft, supple, and seeking contact?

Seriously?

Everybody starting dressage should have learnt the simple basic principals of riding a horse. Nobody sensible would expect that "when they first get on a horse".

[slc2]

I don't think anyone said that everyone should or can start riding perfectly.

But even from the start, a person can either be going down the right track, or the wrong track, even within their limitations. The instructor can guide them in the right position, and teach them first to follow the horse's motions and then to gradually learn to influence them.

A person, even a beginner, can benefit from trying to do things properly and being shown how to do them properly, right from the start.

People do start out doing very simple things on horse back - turning, stopping, picking up the trot or canter, and they can start just doing simple things like steering without pulling the horse's head around to its tail or making it run backwards all the time. That's the beginning.

At every stage of learning, there is an 'on the right track' sort of thing the person can be doing, and a 'on the wrong track' sort of thing the person can be doing.

[Eclectic Horseman]

There are stages of learning, and of resistance, for horses as well as riders.

As I stated in my first post, the goal is to ride all horses the same way with perfect position and invisible aids.

But if you are riding real horses, then in order to be an effective rider and not just a passenger, then the first thing that you have to do is to GET A REACTION to your aids.

[Ambrey]

The idea that riding a horse from back to front and supple, relaxed, and accepting of the bit is something one should know before "starting" dressage is a bit silly.

What if one doesn't know those things but wants to start taking lessons? Should he start with a different saddle, trainer, and end goal because he doesn't yet know those things? Or should he just not post to dressage boards or claim to be learning dressage until he knows those things, because one isn't "learning dressage" until the second after one knows how to get the horse's energy flowing back to front and accepting of contact?

But truly, I think the idea that anyone ever "knows" how to do those things and is done learning about them is kind of misleading- I watch clinic videos and even at the highest levels, riders are still being taught about these two skills. If one thinks that they already knew all about them before they started learning "dressage" they might be missing out on something.

[sm]

The idea that riding a horse from back to front and supple, relaxed, and accepting of the bit is something one should know before "starting" dressage is a bit silly.

Try to read for comprehension:

- no one says they need to know this skill before they can ride, that's like saying you need to be able to walk before you can try to walk. Although it's very entertaining to read your posts, you're in essence arguing with yourself.

- the OP asked help in understanding Training Level concepts, please refer to the title of this thread.

If you want to get a good score on a training level dressage test: riding a horse from back to front while supple, relaxed, and accepting (or seeking) the bit is very important. That's exactly what training level is "all" about, that's exactly the GOAL in training level.

[Equibrit]

The idea that riding a horse from back to front and supple, relaxed, and accepting of the bit is something one should know before "starting" dressage is a bit silly.


You seem to be alone in making this assumption.

[sm]

what suprised me, after watching my trainer and her students for many years, is those who developed truly correct basics in Training Level were able to move rather quickly through First Level.

Those who rode Training Tests more like an equitation test were stuck and had to spend their time instead undoing bad habits. They did not develop the skills needed to help their horses through First. They actually blocked the horses many times from suceeding, because they couldn't utilise what they SHOULD have learned in Training Level.

[Ambrey]

Try to read for comprehension:

- no one says they need to know this skill before they can ride, that's like saying you need to be able to walk before you can try to walk. Although it's very entertaining to read your posts, you're in essence arguing with yourself.


There is really no need to be rude. If you re-read equibrit's comments, she said exactly that- that before one starts to ride dressage, one should already have command of these "basics.".

My point was that even as a goal it can sometimes seem frustratingly out of reach. It feels like you're staring at a 900 lb weight with no idea what steps you need to take to get to the point where you can lift it.

This is why I prefer trainers who break down those big concepts into smaller steps well and give a lot of small, intermediate goals to work toward.

[sm]

There is really no need to be rude. If you re-read equibrit's comments, she said exactly that- that before one starts to ride dressage, one should already have command of these "basics."



Are you referring to equibrit's post 16? Especially the part where equibrit wrote, "Nobody sensible would expect that 'when they first get on a horse.' " Again, you're not reading for comprehension.

You describe on post 23: "It feels like you're staring at a 900 lb weight with no idea what steps you need to take to get to the point where you can lift it." You don't need to lift it, you need to generate (or in somes cases allow instead of block) correct energy from back to front. The horse is supposed to do the heavy lifting.

I would suggest reading the same links already posted, especially the one on CONTACT:
http://www.ridingart.com/riding-basics.htm
http://www.ridingart.com/contact.htm
http://www.ridingart.com/visual-points.htm
http://www.ridingart.com/energy_flow.htm

[Ambrey]

Nope, post # 14.

But clearly you didn't comprehend my weightlifting analogy either. It was a sports psychology analogy, not a riding analogy. So just never mind.

Good luck, Didgery. I still highly recommend Jane Savoie's dressage mentor program, she's great at breaking things down into small, doable steps so you feel a sense of progress :)

[sm]

Nope, post # 14.

But clearly you didn't comprehend my weightlifting analogy either. It was a sports psychology analogy, not a riding analogy. So just never mind.



post 14 doesn't support your case at all, this is post 14:

EVERYBODY should start there - otherwise there is no going forward.

This is post 16 which discusses your post 24 command of the basics:
Everybody starting dressage should have learnt the simple basic principals of riding a horse. Nobody sensible would expect that "when they first get on a horse".

[Ambrey]

I quoted you (back to front, blah blah blah) and said that's the goal, but nobody starts there. The response was that EVERYBODY should start there.

Post 16 was a response a response to that, but clarified that one should have those basics (as stated by you, riding the horse back to front, supple and accepting the bit) before one starts to ride dressage.

[slc2]

You two love to argue, I think.

A total beginner can actually start in a sort of rudimentary 'riding back to front'.

The instructor can start him on the longe, so he doesn't lean on the reins for support, which is the first part of 'riding back to front', learning not to support oneself with the reins.

The instructor can have him ride with loose reins, just steering his horse, so he isn't pulling on the reins to try and keep himself in position.

The instructor can be smart enough to put him on a horse that he doesn't get real defensive and clutchy on, so he can learn to follow the motions of the horse's gaits with his muscles relaxed. The instructor can also start him out on a horse that has slower, smaller strides.

That is the first phase of riding 'back to front'.

For the intermediate rider, the instructor can continue with him learning to 'follow' the horse's mouth, and the horse's head as it moves slightly. He can get the rider's leg stronger, and keep correcting his position, so he is stable and doesn't lean forward. He can encourage the rider to get used to more active, forward gaits, and learn to follow those.

For the further along rider, the instructor can start to teach him to use the correct rein length, and to ride on a contact without shortening up the reins and pulling backward.

He can start the rider learning to make a half halt 'on the forward', and making his corrections 'on the forward'.

Those are stages in riding 'back to front'.

With correct instruction, a student starts from the very beginning, 'riding back to front'.

The approach at a lot of riding schools is to get the person out there and quickly doing a variety of things on the horse, before his muscles and his position have gotten the least bit stable. I think the assumption is that people will get bored if they are longed or worked with to strengthen their position. So you may not see people taking an ideal series of steps, but they eventually learn and are alright too.

[sm]

I quoted you (back to front, blah blah blah) and said that's the goal, but nobody starts there. The response was that EVERYBODY should start there.

Post 16 was a response a response to that, but clarified that one should have those basics (as stated by you, riding the horse back to front, supple and accepting the bit) before one starts to ride dressage.


Now you're starting to get it!!

If we can only change your experience, "It feels like you're staring at a 900 lb weight with no idea what steps you need to take to get to the point where you can lift it."

...then I will consider this bandwidth well spent. (The Mods may not, they may be wrestling each other for a now-almost-empty bottle of ibuprofen.)

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

My impression is that inside rein asks for flexion, not bend. I

My understanding as well - the bend actually comes from the seat and leg aids.

[Ambrey]

All of those seem like dumbbells to me, compared to the big weight.

Maybe I just keep adding 100 lbs to that 900 lb weight every time I figure something out? LOL.

[sm]

maybe you learn visually, by videos or watching lessons. If reading helps here are some good books, also taken from http://www.ridingart.com/contact.htm provided earlier:

Dressage Riding by Richard Watjen
Horsemanship by Waldemar Seunig
The Rider Forms the Horse by Udo Burger and Otto Zietzschmann
Dressage Formula by Erik Herbermann
A Horseman’s Notes by Erik Herbermann

[Ambrey]

Nah, we'll give the mods a break, I have no desire to go over what someone said, vs. what you think she said, vs. what you think she meant which is what you think she should have said, all while you've made zero effort to comprehend my point at all.

I think that back to front riding isn't something you turn on or off, it's skill developed by degrees as you continue training. As for where someone should be in that process when they start dressage training, when they do their first TL test, etc., I'm guessing there are as many opinions on that as there are people ;)

[slc2]

It's not really that complicated. It's defined clearly in the test objectives at each level, and it's a part of every riding lesson.

But most people's understanding of 'back to front' is...wrong. Real wrong.

It's not really just back to front. It's a circle, or more properly, a cycle. It goes to the front, and back again, and to the front again, and on and on.

[Beasmom]

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