Eventing stallion prospect?

[RacetrackReject]

If you were going to start breeding for event horses, how would you go about picking a foundation stallion?

Would you pick a horse that was already competing and had produced offspring that were going already?

Or would you pick a nice stallion with good conformation for what you want to do and go from there?

The reason I ask is that on another board, someone posted what I think is a very nice stallion that is for sale (soon to be up on CANTER) or possibly free in the right situation. He is 11 and has bred and raced and is retiring sound. He seems to be a nice stallion, but the majority of people seem to be saying to geld him and restart him. While I understand about overbreeding and I agree that most animals that are bred, should not be, I feel that this stallion seems to be of quality and maybe he should have the oppurtunity to be a sporthorse stallion. So, I guess my question is, does a stallion that is not already competing have a chance to become a sporthorse stallion or are they destined to be gelded?

I am not looking at starting a breeding farm or anything of the sort, but just posting out of curiosity really.

here is the stallion:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v17/jenarby/adios1.jpg

[NancyM]

Well, you gotta go with what your heart and your experience tell you. No one can predict the future. Standing a stallion is based on what you believe will work, given what you know about the sport, and the horse. There are many top sport performing TBs who are sired by TB stallions who have done nothing but race, and/or are bred for nothing but racing. There is no guarantee that any horse who does compete will produce offspring who do as well as he did. This is often seen with race producing stallions, big competitive careers do not always lead to success in the breeding shed. So there is little to go on, really.

The pic posted looks adequate, and with a long racing history, perhaps soundness and conformation and carriage is good enough. But he looks a bit straight in the hock to me in the pic. But you would have to take him home, get to know him, and at least free jump him a bit, see how he does, what you think of him and his jumping ability before you could make any determination as to whether he is worth a chance as a breeding stallion for this market. Take a look at his pedigree, there may be something there that might be encouraging, sometimes there is. Investigate his immediate family, see if there is any sport performance there other than racing.

Standing a non race TB stallion is a hard situation. It takes so long for any offspring to make it to any substantial level of competition other than racing to prove themselves and bring attention to your stallion, that it is hard to "win" with a stallion that is already this old. Attracting mares from outside owners is difficult, especially when horses off the track and bred by people liquidating stock tend to be cheaper than breeding your own. But if it is something you want to try, have the knowledge, the land, the economic backing, and a few mares of your own to make or break this stallion, prove him, you will learn a lot about it all while making the attempt. And you may find success, if you are lucky and good at what you do. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. But it is a long term goal, to prove a stallion especially in sport disciplines, and the chances of true economic success is slim. As a learning experience for you, it is valuable.

[Bobthehorse]

What would be so tragic about him getting the chop and going on to be someones lovely sporthorse? I just dont see why this horse, or any horse really, *needs* the opportunity to be a stud. I dont see why thats better than getting gelded and starting a career.

I personally wouldnt want to start a sporthorse breeding program with an unproven stallion. If someone who was already experienced and reputable were to pick up a stallion like this, thats a different story. But someone new to breeding would have a very hard time finding quality mares to breed to. Most people looking for a sporthorse baby go with a stallion that is, you know, also a sporthorse. So, proven in his discipline. Breeding is such a crapshoot, most knowledgeable people want to do whatever they can to stack the odds in their favour.

[vineyridge]

We've been talking about him on the Breeding forum. He has a new home with a CoTHer who plans to show him as an entire if he has the temperament for it.

He has a magnificent pedigree. His sire is Maria's Mon, who is a cross between Caro and Majestic Light (both well known sport lines) on top; and his dam is by Devil's Bag, a Halo son. Maria's Mon has get who have done well in h/j; and that's where this guy is going to be headed.

If he shows well, he should get mares. But it will depend on his success in the ring.

[NancyM]

Sounds like he might even be useful as a duel purpose stallion, especially in a regional race breeding program, with a pedigree like that, and long term soundness with an extended race career.

Sounds like his new owner is planning to give him the chances he needs. Cutting his nuts off as the first line of business doesn't make sense to me.

[Centuree]

Well, personally, with the economic market being what it is, why breed more horses with an unproven stallion? In order for me to even consider breeding to him or buying an offspring by him for sport, he'd have to have gone up the ranks himself, and have offspring competing at a high level in the sport I want to pursue. We really need to pay close attention to the types of horses that are top quality. Top quality horses are from proven lines, that have proven themselves. Standing an older TB stallion at stud because he is nice looking, and has some nice racehorses in his pedigree, seems both economically and ethically irresponsible in my opinion. Sorry, I know that sounds harsh, but I see WAY too many horses at the auction with bad conformation, from poor breeding decisions, and it really breaks my heart. :no:

I can't stress enough that when we're talking about sporthorse breeding, the goal is to breed the best to the best, in hopes of producing something great. Breeding fairly decent to fairly decent hoping to get something great is completely unrealistic.

[ThreeDays]

Which fellow Coth'er has him and what state is he in?

[LLDM]

I think he's nice - damn nice. Proven? Yes, in a way he is. He has a race record, a breeding record and has his "adult" conformation. In fact, he is *just* the type of horse the Europeans would consider as an improvement sire for their relatively (to us, anyway) tightly quality controlled breeding programs.

One of the reasons this country is so far behind *many* other equestrian savvy countries in breeding for sport and export is our provincial thinking and our completely crappy record keeping (tying breeding to performance in any meaningful manner). So, our TB racing industry is the only US version with a clue, and still you all turn your noses up at it. It kills me.

Sorry, haven't had that rant slip out in a while.

I'm glad someone is giving this guy a shot. He could be fabulous. And he likely doesn't throw crap, as he has thrown a number of runners and some winners. Any more than he has and he wouldn't be available as a sporthorse stallion. Guess what folks - we can't afford to breed to *real* successful TBs!

SCFarm

[vineyridge]

Which fellow Coth'er has him and what state is he in?

CoTHer is Personal Champ, and he (stallion) will be in NE Pennsylvania.

[Centuree]

I think he's nice - damn nice. Proven? Yes, in a way he is. He has a race record, a breeding record and has his "adult" conformation. In fact, he is *just* the type of horse the Europeans would consider as an improvement sire for their relatively (to us, anyway) tightly quality controlled breeding programs.

One of the reasons this country is so far behind *many* other equestrian savvy countries in breeding for sport and export is our provincial thinking and our completely crappy record keeping (tying breeding to performance in any meaningful manner). So, our TB racing industry is the only US version with a clue, and still you all turn your noses up at it. It kills me.

Sorry, haven't had that rant slip out in a while.

I'm glad someone is giving this guy a shot. He could be fabulous. And he likely doesn't throw crap, as he has thrown a number of runners and some winners. Any more than he has and he wouldn't be available as a sporthorse stallion. Guess what folks - we can't afford to breed to *real* successful TBs!

SCFarm

Am I missing something here? Having a race record and a breeding record makes him proven for sporthorse breeding?? :confused: I agree that he's pretty cute to look at, not exactly Ladykiller, but a nicely put together horse. Nonetheless, that still has absolutely no bearing on the type of jumpers he's going to throw.

I will say if the owner wants to spend the time and money trying to prove him in sport, than good on him, but if not, I wouldn't risk it.

And - I have no idea what you mean by we can't afford to breed "real" successful Tbs? I have seen plenty of "real" successful Tbs that I'd love to breed to (ie. Coconut Grove, Final Pool, Hand in Glove ...) the list goes on.

Also don't understand your argument at all. The reason we are so behind other countries is because of provincial thinking and poor record keeping? So your solution is to give Tbs, which by your logic are proven if they have a race and breeding record, and this will make us successful sporthorse breeders?? Come on ...

The reasons the Europeans are ahead of us in sporthorse breeding is because its big business down there. Money, resources, knowledge ... On the other hand, most North Americans would rather watch a hockey or basketball game than go to a show jumping venue. sad but true. The equestrian scene is not nearly as popular here.

[Bobthehorse]

If someone does want to get him out there, bring him up the levels and prove that he is nice beyond nice conformation, thats great.

But there is no tragedy in chopping off balls. Gelding a horse is NEVER a bad decision, whereas keeping one intact often is. I just dont see why people would be crying over this horse, who really is nothing unique or spectacular, not getting a chance to keep procreating. Theres plenty more where he came from.

[LLDM]

I am just so bloody tired of hearing the same old, same old about gelding horses. You have no idea what this horse has to offer the breeding pool.

When I first looked at him he reminded me a great deal of the little TB stallion Der Lowe - another OTTB (English bred) who ended up having huge impact on the West German breeding programs. He had *zero* performance in sport. He was a race horse only. And when they drafted him into the WB studbooks, he only had some TB progeny on the ground, so at least they knew he didn't throw 3 headed babies. He had just about the same credentials as this guy does. He was cute too.

What I object to is hearing the US breeding dogma. No, I do not think you can breed crap to crap and consistently get rose petals. But the idea that you can breed 4 star horses to 4 star horses and always get 4 star horses is equally untrue. You will almost never get 4 star horses. You'll likely have better luck -but if you look at the odds, you are a bit more likely to get a 4 star horse from 2 non-four star horses. (and yes, I know that is fuzzy statistics)

There are many horses here in the US that shouldn't be breeding. On that I agree. But the idea that only the best of the best proven performance horses should be bred is, IMO, not only wrong, but untenable.

What I truly fear is that so many people in this country are afraid of stallions we will shrink the viable breeding pool so much we will end up like the AKC. It is so much of an issue in the TB industry they will never allow
AI - as the gene pool wouod shrink to nothing.

There needs to be a balance. Too many stallions does NOT NECESSARILY mean over breeding. Only too much breeding means to too much breeding.

Am I missing something here? Having a race record and a breeding record makes him proven for sporthorse breeding?? :confused: I agree that he's pretty cute to look at, not exactly Ladykiller, but a nicely put together horse. Nonetheless, that still has absolutely no bearing on the type of jumpers he's going to throw.

No, the only way to know is to try and jump some of his offspring. It doesn't matter if he can or can not jump the moon. It only matters if his offspring can.

I will say if the owner wants to spend the time and money trying to prove him in sport, than good on him, but if not, I wouldn't risk it.

No one will make you risk it. That wasn't the question.

And - I have no idea what you mean by we can't afford to breed "real" successful Tbs? I have seen plenty of "real" successful Tbs that I'd love to breed to (ie. Coconut Grove, Final Pool, Hand in Glove ...) the list goes on.

The cream of the crop TBs in this country would be welcomed with open arms (and drooling tongues) by any European WB registry - from the Holsteiners to the Irish Sport Horses. The only reason they don't use them is that they can't afford the stud fees - or the better mares for that matter.

Also don't understand your argument at all. The reason we are so behind other countries is because of provincial thinking and poor record keeping?

Yes

So your solution is to give Tbs, which by your logic are proven if they have a race and breeding record, and this will make us successful sporthorse breeders?? Come on ...

Close, but not exactly. My point was that there is plenty to look at with this stallion before you dismiss him and geld him. He has a race record - by which you can see both his speed and his stamina - and how well he has held up soundness wise. He has babaies on the ground who have also run. Ditto on speed, stamina and BTW - ability pass on the same. He is all grown up, so no surprises there.

Even if you knew he could get around a 4 star - you still wouldn't know if he could produce one. You would know his daddy could though!

The reasons the Europeans are ahead of us in sporthorse breeding is because its big business down there. Money, resources, knowledge ... On the other hand, most North Americans would rather watch a hockey or basketball game than go to a show jumping venue. sad but true. The equestrian scene is not nearly as popular here.

We keep saying that, but it doesn't make it true. They are ahead of us in sport horse breeding because they are pragmatic, organized, patient and know how to think about breeding in ways we generally don't. They know how to take *reasonable* chances and properly evaluate the outcomes and offspring. And they communicate well. Just ask them, they are usually happy to share what they know - if people would only listen.

SCFarm

[TB or not TB?]

I like the looks of him a lot, and his breeding. If he has the temperament for staying entire and competing, why not? I'm reminded a bit of Loyal Pal but this guy seems sportier. If he raced until 11 and is sound, that speaks well of him. Surely in a few years he could be up to Prelim or Int and already have some foals on the ground.

[Centuree]

Interesting breeding philosophy LLDM. First question I have, is which US stallions exactly would the Holsteiner verband like to get their hands on? Or, can you follow this statement up with a source? Not to be rude, just curious.

Your quote on you have a higher chance of breeding a two star horse to a two star horse and getting four star horse, than a four star and four star and producing a four star, is completely ridiculous. Again, source please?

And I have never said you needed both parents to have performance records to breed a high end horse. What I said is you need to know the motherline, you need to know what they are producing, rather than cute stallion, good pedigree, lets use him.

I can't argue that I know what exact criterion the warmblood registries use when choosing to breed outside to a TB stallion. I have no idea, and you seem to know more about this than me. Are you a breeder? Please elaborate on this point on what criterion are essential, other than a race and breeding record and nice conformation.

[LLDM]

Interesting breeding philosophy LLDM. First question I have, is which US stallions exactly would the Holsteiner verband like to get their hands on? Or, can you follow this statement up with a source? Not to be rude, just curious.

Not to be rude, but can you read for content? But to be specific, the 2004 USDF Annual Meeting and Dressage Symposium (In Lexington KY) on breeding and developing young horses - Christoph Hess (be still my heart), then Germany's High Performance Equestrian Coach and FEI Judge, and main symposium speaker - going on and on (and on) about the amazing, fabulous, lovely TBs he had been invited to see at some of Lexington's leading TB farms. And how sad he was that he could not afford them for Germany's breeding programs (yes, WB programs), as - alas, they were not for sale - and would *never* be allowed outside the JC breeding programs. Which he completely understood. But that he could still look.

In addition, any WB inspector when asked about what kind of TBs are accepted into their studbooks. You will almost always get the sad story that they rarely see the ones they want at inspections. But have seen the best studs and broodmares, who would earn 8's, 9's and 10's in any book. Alas they are already in the high end TB breeding programs.

Your quote on you have a higher chance of breeding a two star horse to a two star horse and getting four star horse, than a four star and four star and producing a four star, is completely ridiculous. Again, source please? Again, do you read? I said nothing like the above, please reread my statement. Yes, I said it was somewhat of a trick of statistics, but try this. Can you name me one 4* horse who was the product of two 4* horses? IOW - Almost all 4* horses are the product of 2 NO * horses.

I don't think that means we shouldn't try. But it also means it is by far not the *only* thing to try.

And I have never said you needed both parents to have performance records to breed a high end horse. What I said is you need to know the motherline, you need to know what they are producing, rather than cute stallion, good pedigree, lets use him.Not arguing that. I am arguing that you dismissed this horse out of hand when there is more information about him available than *many* breeding stallions - including Denny's lovely Formula One. Depending on the mare, this guy might be a better match than any given 4* ( or 3*, 2*, 1*) stallion.

I can't argue that I know what exact criterion the warmblood registries use when choosing to breed outside to a TB stallion. I have no idea, and you seem to know more about this than me. Are you a breeder? Please elaborate on this point on what criterion are essential, other than a race and breeding record and nice conformation.Yes, I am a breeder. Not that it makes me an expert on anything. What I can tell you is that TB improvement blood is often introduced in WB books (albeit slowly and carefully) on the sire side based on just that - racing record, fertility and conformation. AND by looking at their current mare base and deciding what they would like to improve and if a particular TB sire can produce it. The (simplified) goal is to add refinement, speed and stamina and without reducing the substance, correctness and purity of gaits they have spent so long developing.

They also rarely make generalized statements. And are used to being proven wrong. The Germans love to tell the stories of the stallions they dismissed, only to be proven terribly wrong in the long term.

But it matters not what the Germans do or do not do. It matters what we do. And what assumptions we make. Genetics knows no discipline - nor the differences between dressage horses and hunters (fox or show).

Yes, there are many, many horses in this country that should probably not be bred. But this horse, I do not believe, is *automatically* one of them. He has much about him to be considered first - among which is who would consider standing him and how good a job they would do of it. Which *was* the original question. There is nothing about this guy that jumps out at me and says "geld him!". Even though that is the current American post Fugly dogma.

BTW - Just where do you think Teddy came from? He was by just such a TB sire - the original Theodore - aka Witty Boy (JC Name). I know this specifically, as I also had a Witty Boy granddaughter.

SCFarm

[denny]

As the sport of eventing changes, pure, raw jumping ability becomes of much greater importance. Scope and technique are both key.

That`s hard to assess with some beaten up race track veterans, because they have been injured to the extent that you can`t free jump them over big fences.

What`s big? Well, start thinking 4`6 as a minimum. Bigger is even better.

But that`s increasingly what I look for in a stallion. Plus a great temperament, and good gaits.

[Centuree]

No need to ask me if I can read LLDM, I'm just of another opinion is all. I was just looking for some specifics, as you said:

"The cream of the crop TBs in this country would be welcomed with open arms (and drooling tongues) by any European WB registry - from the Holsteiners to the Irish Sport Horses. The only reason they don't use them is that they can't afford the stud fees - or the better mares for that matter."

And I was just wondering which ones ... I am curious, am not educated about the top Tb stallions, and just wanted to know which ones are the so called cream of the crop that any European registry from Hosteiners to Irish Sport horses, would like to use. If you do have names and websites, I would like to see who these top quality thoroughbreds are, that you speak so freely of.

I always thought that the stallions that produced high end racehorses, would probably not be the top choice to produce an eventer or jumper, as the goals of the two breeding programs are completely different.

And your right, I did mess up the four star statistic quotes. I wrote it quickly, was on my way out.

And I agree with Denny, that the sport of eventing has changed to the point where raw jumping talent is essential. An older stallion no longer to show himself over fences, can you tell by pedigree/conformation alone? I don't know ...

[denny]

The "work backwards" principle:

What does it take to make a top event horse? Write all that down.
On your list you`ll have words and phrases like sound, sane, fancy trot, uphill canter, ability to jump clean (when tired from xc) over 4`3 technical show jumping, ability to run 570 m/m on xc, agile, brave as a lion, stuff like that.

Look at the mare. What of that does she bring to the mix?

Look at the prospective stallion. What do you think he`ll bring?

If the prospective stallion`s traits are a mystery----say he`s untried over jumps, doesn`t have a great trot, isn`t demonstrably quiet/sane, isn`t built uphill, doesn`t have a great gallop----all of those considerations----do you really want to spend your time/money to produce for this brave new world of eventing, when you have to have it all.

Because the stallions of the 50s-90s were selected for A VERY DIFFERENT SPORT than the stallions for the short format, make no mistake.

[Eventer55]

You can argue all day ong about weather a horse should be gelded or not, but I have to tell you it's hard to find a great Thoroughbrerd stallion. How do I know? Because I'm looking. We lost Denny's horse to colic in November, A Fine Romance returned to Canada and that left Steuart's stallion. I am also looking at 2 stallions (Rock Point and Castle Cove) but thruthfully, by the time I want to breed my mare they will all have some age on them and as of now Rock point is 24.

And no I do not want anything but a Registered Tb. I will be breeding for myself, so I will breed for me not for a sale horse. Unless the JC moves into the new millenium I am looking at a small rapidly aging group.

Hopefully, someone will have a nice stallion in the next 4 years.

[denny]

Just a question: Why JC reg, if not aiming for racing?
Especially since that puts enormous, self imposed limits on your choice range.
Just curious.

[LLDM]

I do apologize for being so snippy. I just get frustrated with the mindset here. And while I understand it, I would feel ever so much better if the "other side" of the argument was better understood. I am only picking on you - but really, most people here seem to feel the same way. Serves you right for speaking up! :winkgrin: Bobthehorse - this all relates to you too! :p

And I was just wondering which ones ... I am curious, am not educated about the top Tb stallions, and just wanted to know which ones are the so called cream of the crop that any European registry from Hosteiners to Irish Sport horses, would like to use. If you do have names and websites, I would like to see who these top quality thoroughbreds are, that you speak so freely of.

I always thought that the stallions that produced high end racehorses, would probably not be the top choice to produce an eventer or jumper, as the goals of the two breeding programs are completely different.

Here is the crux of the difference between short term goals and long term goals in breeding. "Which stallion" would depend entirely on the moment - meaning what combination of traits would work with the current mare base to produce the desired effect. They are like kids in a candy store in KY, as so many of these sires "would do". meaning they have nothing which excludes them (i.e. poor conformation, poor runners, lousy offspring, lousy breeding). Since so few would be excluded, they would have their pick of positive qualities that would work for them, their mares, their intermediate goals.

The Europeans, esp. the Germans, think in generations. They believe horses that can run *are* athletes. They produce first and foremost athletes, hopefully sound athletes. Then they worry about particulars. They don't care so much if a lovely stallion can jump, so much as he brings the right qualities to their jumper mares (like stamina, or refinement, or speed) *without* disrupting the ability to pass along the jumping talent from the jumper mares. (Jumping talent is the most heritable trait we know of.)

The Holsteiners in particular have made their breeding mistakes. I know this because they freely admit to it. They concentrated too much on jumping talent and ended up with some serious conformation problems in their mare base. They have done much to rectify this now and it is almost gone, but they did this with the judicious use of outside blood and have managed to rectify this without losing that the jumping abilty for which they are so famous. OTOH - The Hanoverians are currently trying to build their jumper program after going down the dressage track almost exclusively for so long. Why? Because jumper blood can do much to improve dressage horses. It strengthens the hind end and can do much to improve suspension among other things.

Athletes are primarily athletes. The particulars are important, but are secondary in breeding and in performance - unless you goals are extremely short term. If you are trying to breed an upper level eventer in one shot, I think your odds are poor enough. But this stallion *might* be just the right ticket for just the right mare. Or the right type of mare. I don't know. But no one here on the bb doesn't either if they don't know him. I have no idea if gelding him would be tragic. It might be, it might not, but it isn't automatically anything.

And I agree with Denny, that the sport of eventing has changed to the point where raw jumping talent is essential. An older stallion no longer to show himself over fences, can you tell by pedigree/conformation alone? I don't know ...

So, I contend the the Germans are right. Or at least more right than we are. Look at their performance records in international competition. There ya go.

So their breeding philosophy seems to hold up - no matter what turns the sport(s) are taking, they seem to have the horses for it. Now, some here argue that it is the Germans who are changing the sport to suit themselves. I think the Germans would love to have that much power. What they do have is a lot of credibility. I think that is just an excuse for why we can't seem to beat them these days. They did well in the long format too, when they cared less about eventing than they seem to now.

What I envy about the German system more than anything else is the seemless integration of their NGB (the German Federation) and their breeding industry. Their horses performance records and breeding (pedigree) records are *always* completely integrated from birth to death of every single horse - except those exported to countries with a complete joke of a system - such as ours.

SCFarm

[RacetrackReject]

I'm not anti-gelding at all. I was just surprised at the number of people immediately saying to geld when in my opinion the horse looked nice enough to be a possible sporthorse stallion.

I hope the new owner keeps us updated as to how Adios is doing and whether she decides to keep him intact after retraining him.

Eventer55-Have you looked at Sea Accounts? It's been a while since I've looked at him, but he seemed quite nice. I think he is going Training/Prelim at the moment. http://debracysporthorses.com

[bornfreenowexpensive]

The "work backwards" principle:

What does it take to make a top event horse? Write all that down.
On your list you`ll have words and phrases like sound, sane, fancy trot, uphill canter, ability to jump clean (when tired from xc) over 4`3 technical show jumping, ability to run 570 m/m on xc, agile, brave as a lion, stuff like that.

Look at the mare. What of that does she bring to the mix?

Look at the prospective stallion. What do you think he`ll bring?

If the prospective stallion`s traits are a mystery----say he`s untried over jumps, doesn`t have a great trot, isn`t demonstrably quiet/sane, isn`t built uphill, doesn`t have a great gallop----all of those considerations----do you really want to spend your time/money to produce for this brave new world of eventing, when you have to have it all.

Because the stallions of the 50s-90s were selected for A VERY DIFFERENT SPORT than the stallions for the short format, make no mistake.


I agree. If we want to breed for eventers...we need to take good mares and good stallions. Now a race TB that has a solid race record AND it is shown to me that he has conformation, movement and JUMP is interesting to me if I have a mare that I think would cross well with a TB and with him.

This is a good looking horse....and his race record shows durability...but that is all. In this day and age of frozen....you have SO many choices as to stallions. Just a solid race record would not be enough to me when there are TB stallions that I can breed to that have competed at GP jumpers or produced GP jumpers and have a record of producing good movers/sane minds.

I disagree with LLDM a bit on this point....Many of the TB stallions in Europe...such as Hand In Glove...DO have performance records (he was a GP jumper). I think that the Germans and others pick TB stallions that have it ALL. Jump, gallop, and conformation. Yes they think more in terms of generations....but just a solid race record I doubt highly would be enough for them either...and actually, I doubt that they care how they performed on the track. That stallion had better also have solid movement, good conformation and very good form/scope jumping over sizable fences. So if some one wants to stand him...that's fine, but they will have a bit of work to do in order to make him more attractive to most mare owners breeding for a sport horse.

If you talk to most breeders....very few make money standing stallions for sport breeding. It is a very tough market. I just picked the stallion for the TB mare that I'm breeding this year (with the help of my trainer who has a lot of experience in breeding). We picked a WB jumper stallion that stands in Germany for her that also passes good movement/Jump and whose conformation looks like it will be complementray to my mare. The mare already has all the movement, jump, gallop and heart that I want in an UL event horse. If I got a duplicate of the mare...I'd be happy. But honestly.....I had a world of choices.....including stallions that are not even alive any more.

[LLDM]

I disagree with LLDM a bit on this point....Many of the TB stallions in Europe...such as Hand In Glove...DO have performance records (he was a GP jumper). I think that the Germans and others pick TB stallions that have it ALL. Jump, gallop, and conformation. Yes they think more in terms of generations....but just a solid race record I doubt highly would be enough for them either...and actually, I doubt that they care how they performed on the track. That stallion had better also have solid movement, good conformation and very good form/scope jumping over sizable fences. So if some one wants to stand him...that's fine, but they will have a bit of work to do in order to make him more attractive to most mare owners breeding for a sport horse.


Hey, don't look at me - I am just telling you what I've been taught. It has nothing to do with what I think. Let's see....

Okay, out of the 2000 yearbook of German Sires:

Approximately 450 Licensed Stallions (various registries) - 30 of them are TBs. 23 of the 30 had race performance results *only*. An additional 5 had race results plus either Performance Test results (modern version of the 100 Day Test) and/or Competition results. A couple passed a simple riding test (ridability) and/or were ridable enough to be ridden at the stallion shows.

Notable exceptions were Lenz xx, who went from racing to steeplechase to jumper. Too soon (at the time of writing) to gauge his successes as a sire - just hopeful at that time.

Also Rivera xx who had ZERO performance. Nothing, Nada. What he had was bloodlines and conformation - out the whazoo from what I am reading. They sound almost afraid to let him out and possibly get hurt, that's how much they love his blood. Oh and the quality of his gaits and his "nobility", which they seem to think he is passing along and earning his progeny very high marks.

Seigneur d'Alleray R xx went from racing to dressage performance. His offspring are being praised for "exceptional type with the fascinating quality of movement of their sire."

Also of these TB stallions, 15 were German bred, 4 were Irish, 3 were English, 2 each for French, Dutch and American and one Zangershsheide (one I could not tell form the translated description).

All of these horses had performance ancestors, siblings and otherwise related horses that ran the gamut from race only (most) to various sport disciplines. There is so much more discussed about their breeding and bloodlines than their (often short and unspectacular) racing careers. It is obvious that these horses all have the basics of excellent conformation and quality/correctness/purity of gaits.

None of these horses are medal winners - and yet they are expected to produce medal winners, or even more likely, horses that will produce medal winners.

Here are some of the one's I know that have been deemed "successful" (which is why I started back a few years):

Aarking xx - Many licensed sons and many F3's (grandchildren) competing over here.

Exorbitant xx - Produced licensed sons for the Trakehners, the Holsteiners and the Hanoverians. No small feat, as those are very different registries with very different ideas, breeding goals and mare bases. Goes to show that a great sire is a great sire on many levels and often with many different types of mares.

Laurie's Crudsador xx - One of my personal favorites - although he sucks the jump out of almost everything he puts on the ground. However, it seems easy enough to breed back into the F3's (grand babies) and leaves them with movement to die for. In 2000 he already had 17 licensed sons, 48 States Premium Mares and had basically founded the modern "L" line for the Hanoverians. He raced 9 times in England over 2 years, won twice, placed 5 times - best finish was a 3rd in the Royal Ascot Gold Cup. But yet he throws high quality Dressage horses very consistently.

Nobel Roi xx - Need I say more? Okay, he sired Nobel Champion. His offspring (F1 - 1st generation) have won just about everything winnable in Europe. His ONLY record is a mediocre 19 starts, won 4, placed in 5.

So there ya go. A short synopsis of TB improvement sires in Germany. By far most have a short, lackluster racing career. But they have a ton of other things going for them, mostly bloodlines, almost always conformation and movement, but also less qualitative things. Some have that "wow" factor, some just an innate quality like nobility, or ridability or athleticism. Some have just the right qualities at just the right time. Often a they get a bunch of horses so similar they won't license them all - even though all are worthy.

They just think about breeding differently than most of us do. They are both more open minded and more rigid. They don't have all the answers - no one does. But they are also the first to admit it. And they love TBs. Often more than we do I think.

I'm just sayin'...

SCFarm

[bornfreenowexpensive]

So there ya go. A short synopsis of TB improvement sires in Germany. By far most have a short, lackluster racing career. But they have a ton of other things going for them, mostly bloodlines, almost always conformation and movement, but also less qualitative things. Some have that "wow" factor, some just an innate quality like nobility, or ridability or athleticism. Some have just the right qualities at just the right time. Often a they get a bunch of horses so similar they won't license them all - even though all are worthy.




That was my point though....they have MORE than a race record...and the race record mattered little if at all. They have the conformation, movement and the jump. I personally like a performance record but my point was that those stallions had to prove that they had qualities worth passing on more than just "blood". They had to move well and correctly, free jump well etc. That is what the OP's stallion will need to prove. And honestly, in the US market....it is going to be tougher than in Europe since we probably have a larger mare base with already a substantial amount of blood.

[flyingchange]

I am just tired of all the unwanted horses. All the irresponsible breeding. The mindset that an "open" mare is a waste.

There are too many unwanted horses out there. Including warmbloods and TBs.

I am all for chopping balls off - even on the nice ones that maybe/coulda/shoulda/woulda made fancy progeny.

That's why I have never bred my mare. Now I have 2 mares. They are both nice. I'd love to breed them and "have a piece" of them forever. But the rub is the "forever" part. I can't make that guarantee and even the "nicest" ones risk ending up in a feedlot.

If you must have a baby, go buy a weanling from a breeder or better yet go down to your local auction and rescue one. Or look at a PMU foal that is living in a feedlot in Canada. Enough with all this irresponsible breeding. I'm so tired of it.

[LLDM]

That was my point though....they have MORE than a race record...and the race record mattered little if at all. They have the conformation, movement and the jump. I personally like a performance record but my point was that those stallions had to prove that they had qualities worth passing on more than just "blood". They had to move well and correctly, free jump well etc. That is what the OP's stallion will need to prove. And honestly, in the US market....it is going to be tougher than in Europe since we probably have a larger mare base with already a substantial amount of blood.

My original (now likely lost ;)) point was that there was much to consider with this guy. And more than could be determined from what could be seen here. But that he nothing (so far) to immediately exclude him and much, so far, to examine. And yes, he would need to have things that make sense in this market too. Like if he has a sucky personality, he probably should be gelded - as US riders don't tolerate that well. (Germany has a much better record of matching impossible horses with equally impossible riders for good results! :lol:)

And while the Germans do like a horse that can jump - it is certainly not a necessity for making jumpers! Seriously! They just want to know that either A) they don't inhibit the jumping talent of the mare or B) they can breed it back in in the next generation. They know there are other things much hard to produce consistently and will trade off to get it.

I am sorry, but I like this this stallion. Not enough to book him, but enough keep looking. And I would LOVE to see what he has thrown and from what type of mares. In that sense it matters more what he's thrown than what he's done. And cute is good.

SCFarm

[LLDM]

I am just tired of all the unwanted horses. All the irresponsible breeding. The mindset that an "open" mare is a waste.

There are too many unwanted horses out there. Including warmbloods and TBs.

I am all for chopping balls off - even on the nice ones that maybe/coulda/shoulda/woulda made fancy progeny.

That's why I have never bred my mare. Now I have 2 mares. They are both nice. I'd love to breed them and "have a piece" of them forever. But the rub is the "forever" part. I can't make that guarantee and even the "nicest" ones risk ending up in a feedlot.

If you must have a baby, go buy a weanling from a breeder or better yet go down to your local auction and rescue one. Or look at a PMU foal that is living in a feedlot in Canada. Enough with all this irresponsible breeding. I'm so tired of it.

You know what? I get that, really I do. And yes, I agree there are too many horses. Problem is that there are too many of the wrong kind of horses.

So, honestly, is it better to support a PMU breeder than someone who bred a TB that could do more than race?

Is it better to put all you time and energy in a poorly bred horse and expect that horse to perform at a competitive level? Or might that be unfair to the horse?

There are exceptions - there always are. But gelding a nice horse doesn't solve the problem. You want to help? Put your energy into rules and regulations that track ALL horses. Their breeding, breeder, performance results, owners, etc. Then we can find out where all the irresponsible breeding is taking place, who does it and THEN we might be able to stop it - or slow it down.

Discouraging people who are trying to learn and be responsible isn't going to do it. Gelding pretty darn nice horses isn't going to do it. Preaching to the choir (here) isn't going to do it. Go argue with the ones over on the General forum who are aghast at idea of mandatory microchipping. They are the one's who don't want anyone to know what they are up to. I wonder why that is?

Just a thought.

SCFarm

[Eventer55]

Just a question: Why JC reg, if not aiming for racing?
Especially since that puts enormous, self imposed limits on your choice range.
Just curious.

I have ridden mostly Thoroughbreds in my life and other than my Arabs that's it. What other Thoroughbred registries are there so I can rethink my strategy.

I have always been impressed with Thoroughbreds that do something other than race. I've always felt that the Thoroughbred is a much more versatile breed and I love to see them excell at eventing or endurance etc. They get a bad rap with some of the breeding going on today.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I have ridden mostly Thoroughbreds in my life and other than my Arabs that's it. What other Thoroughbred registries are there so I can rethink my strategy.

I have always been impressed with Thoroughbreds that do something other than race. I've always felt that the Thoroughbred is a much more versatile breed and I love to see them excell at eventing or endurance etc. They get a bad rap with some of the breeding going on today.

I think what Denny was getting at is that unless you are aiming to produce a foal that needs to be JC registered....you are needlessly limiting yourself. There are many full TB stallions standing that you can get frozen semen (and some fresh cooled) from and do AI on a mare. No that foal will not be a JC foal but it will be a full TB (assuming the dam is TB)...but if a registry is important to you, most of those TB stallions are also approved in other registries.

There are also a lot of stallions that are nearly full TB. Denny's Aberjack for example...he is 7/8ths TB I believe. I have one out of a TB mare....so my horse is 15/16ths TB (I think I did the math right)....basically pretty darn close to full TB. There are several other stallions who would also be close to all TB....a lot of the Selle Francais are mostly TB.

Just on a quick search:

http://www.emcostallionservices.com/stallions/westonjustice.html

http://www.emcostallionservices.com/stallions/doublecracker.html
http://www.emcostallionservices.com/stallions/weltonadonis.html

One of my favs.

http://www.frenchstallions.org/french_stallion_detail.php?stallion=2007009


here's a full TB

http://www.emcostallionservices.com/stallions/minerslamp.html



Just letting you know what is out there if you didn't already know.

[UMass Director]

It is interesting to read the differences of opinion about the JC and the German breeding programs.
Perhaps while going off focal point of the thread in "consideration of a stallion prospect" to debating breeds one should consider the system of the breed before debating it.
The JC is the only "sporthorse" system in the USA that has years of experience. Breeding of "sporthorses" has had little control in the US until recently. The European systems of breeding have been at it for centuries as has the JC.
My advise would be certainly to consider the genetics, the rideability of the lines of the parents and then the individual horse. It could well take a couple of generations to prove or disprove a stallions worth.

[imapepper]

Just a question: Why JC reg, if not aiming for racing?
Especially since that puts enormous, self imposed limits on your choice range.
Just curious.

If I were to breed my TB mare to a TB stallion that gives me some sort of registry options. Not that I care much myself but it makes a huge difference to buyers should I not be able to keep the foal for any reason. If the stallion was not approved somewhere, I would want JC papers....but again....it's mostly in case of the possiblity of resale.

[JER]

If I were to breed my TB mare to a TB stallion that gives me some sort of registry options. Not that I care much myself but it makes a huge difference to buyers should I not be able to keep the foal for any reason. If the stallion was not approved somewhere, I would want JC papers....but again....it's mostly in case of the possiblity of resale.

I don't really understand this. JC papers don't mean much if you're not planning to race. If you bred the horse, you'll have breeding certs to prove parentage and I don't know why a buyer would want more than that if they were buying a TB they weren't planning to race or breed for racing.

[denny]

I`m solidly with JER here. All my life I`ve listened to breed advocates extoll their breed of choice. And I realize that each one of them has "bought in" to the propaganda carefully developed by that breed registry.

Morgans are "the pride and product of America", Arabs are this, Quarter Horses are that, Holsteiners jump, thoroughbreds wil "run for you til they die", yada, yada, yada.

A horse doesn`t know what breed it is, or whether or not it`s in some registry with papers to prove it.

The way to prove your horse is by getting on its back and by going out and kicking butt.

And don`t be surprised if most of the time you get your own butt kicked by some crossbred "mutt", some mix of this and that.

I`m all for pedigree, but breed papers are only useful if you won`t step outside that breed`s safe little world to take on any and all comers.

[Ajierene]

I agree with Denny here. Breeding is not the problem, bad breeding is the problem. By 'rescuing' PMU mares/foals - aren't we supporting that business? I am not an expert on PMU production/marketing/business, but I do know a small farm that makes her business leasing out foster mares. If no one bought the foals she puts on the ground to create milk producing mares - she will soon be overrun with horse. That is, unless she can sell a 2 week old at the auction - which I am sure she can.

There are so many bad breeding going on out there - just because your horse has papers does not mean they are worth anything. I have seen plenty of thoroughbreds and 'mutts' sold without papers to know that when the vast majority of the horse population are really looking - they are looking for a horse that performs and fits with the new owner/buyer. Yes, there are people that do mostly breed shows and therefore require a certain breed. This is not at all relevant in the Eventing world.

Some propaganda I have noticed recently is that a lot of US breeders want to say that their breed can do anything - is the ultimate 'all around' breed. When you look right at it, though - an Arabian dressage horse has a different confirmation than an Arabian endurance horse. A cutting Quarter horse is much stockier and lower to the ground than a jumping quarter horse. The breed does not actually mean your horse is well rounded unless you can take that horse and really do everything with it - at a high level.

I remember seeing an Arabian approved by the Trakehner society. Some people were using this stallion to extoll the virtues of Arabians and note their diversity. The stallion was:

16HH (Arabians should be about 14.2HH at the tallest)
refined head (no dish, which should be typical of an Arabian)
high, rounded croup (Arabians should have a flatter croup that is not above the whithers)

There were some other points - but these are what I remember seeing on first glance and are a note that while this horse may make a great Trakehner, he does not really fit the breed standards of the Arabian. The Warmbloods are a registry, not a breed. One one side this is kind of annoying since you can have a Holsteiner Stallion, Oldenburg Dam and Hannovarian baby - just by virtue of where it was born. On the other hand - at least they keep a certain standard (or try to) in their breed. Not every ugly baby on the ground can be an X brand Warmblood by virtue of it's parents. And I have seen some ugly 'purebreds'.

[flyingchange]

As far as JC papers go - I do understand their relevance for keeping your marketing options as broad as possible and to include TB breeding operations - for mares that is. I'm pretty sure that you have to have JC papers to register a mare at the big breeding stock sales - ie, the November Keeneland sale. Also, I *think* the bigger studs require JC papers of breeding mares that will be bred to their stallions.

As far as the decision to purchase a PMU foal rather than breeding your own. Whether the PMU foals are adopted/bought by responsible horsemen is of no consequence or relevance to the premarin industry. The foals are a byproduct and will be disposed of whether they go to a good home or to a frenchman's supper plate. You are not "supporting" that industry when you buy a PMU foal. You are basically giving that foal a chance. The money made from the foals is pocketchange compared to that paid by the big pharmaceuticals like W-E to the mare operations.

I feel the same way about breeding backyard mares as I do about people who breed their purbred dogs and cats and then try to sell the offspring. It's a personal opinion and one I should have kept to myself as I know many do not agree and are probably insulted and offended by reading my thoughts on it. I have just seen and heard of too many VERY "nice" horses, from strong breeding programs, from TBs to WBs to QHs to everything inbetween, being tossed off by their owners when something happens and they can no longer do their jobs. Or the owners end up in hard times. And then the owners are "shocked" when and if they find out about the horse ending up in a shit situation. But ignorance is bliss. My former neighbor in Aldie bred very nice Welsh ponies for years and years. They were always in the ribbons in the breeding classes at Upperville and Warrenton. She always sold them and made OK money. But she got out of the business after doing it for 30+ years because she said she honestly worried about each and every one of the foals/yearlings that she sold on. Wondered where they ended up, if they were OK.

I have no problem with buying and selling horses. I bought and sold a horse last year and he went to a great "forever" home that I feel very good about. But bringing a life into this world and then sending it out into the world without a safetyline - I couldn't do it. Just because they are nice and talented and yada yada yada doesn't mean anything when they go lame. Then to many they are worthless. As most people here know, I have one in my backyard who was very talented, very nice. VERY nice. And came this close to ending up at a meat auction. I had several people roll their eyes at me when they found out that I had him and was giving him a home. Including a trainer I was working with at the time.

Anyway, I am sure you guys will make very beautiful babies and I do wish you all the best in your endeavors. I am sorry if my thoughts bother or insult. They are not meant to. I feel there are too many horses out there that need homes/are unwanted. Many of them are very "nice" as defined by good conformation, bloodlines, attitude, talent, etc. If THEY are unwanted, then why add to the problem. Unless you are breeding for yourself and plan to keep the horse forever or to ensure that it is always taken care of.

[LLDM]

There is a huge difference between a breed and a registry. I don't care about the breed. But it kills me that there is no US registry worth anything as far as breeding goes OR performance for that matter.

Denny - I don't agree with everything the Germans say or do WRT breeding. But I can certainly appreciate their philosophy, their logic and their superior organization. And I can certainly appreciate their results. I have learned much from studying their system. We have no comprehensive system, nor even a framework. But you know this, you've written about it too.

If I were king :cool: every single horse in this country would be registered. And by registered, I mean parental (if known) information recorded, DNA verified, breeder and owner information correct and current - with ONE NUMBER (an internationally recognized ID #) assigned to each horse. And that one number would be used by every single performance organization.

I absolutely believe that a good horse is a good horse no matter what their breeding. But the only way to maximize the breeding or good horses and minimize the breeding of healthy, sound (long term), athletic, sane horses is to take breeding and bloodlines into account along with known performance records. That is how we keep good horses from falling through the cracks and begins to stem the tide of unwanted horses.

We DID have something like this years ago.. And I will never forgive the jerk who decided to disband the Calvary Remount program and did not even attempt to privatize it. That was the foundation of what would have become the American Warmblood/Sporthorse/what-have-you - a horse bred for primarily for sport rather than breed. And yes, Virginia, they do exist - in small pockets. But they are entirely private hands with no external verification and no access by the public performance databases. And they often disappear from one generation to the next.

So much of the information we need to make great breeding decisions is lost every day. With every name change, every sale without pedigree information attached, every every owner who doesn't care where their horse came from. It really stinks is how few people care, but everyone seems to want nice horses.

SCFarm

[denny]

One more aspect of US horses that "our" USEF seems oblivious to-----

[Elghund2]

Last night Southern States put on a program about equine economics. The second part was about selling horses. I think the gentleman's name was Tim Jenkins who is an auctioneer. He really emphasized doing the research on the market and the target buyers, just like you would with any product.

If you are going to breed for eventing then the stallion and dam should have some eventing bona fides. If you want to sell them as high level eventers then people are going to be looking for results from the parents in top level events. Talking about racing lineage and results doesn't do much for eventing.

It was a good presentation with a lot of common sense which is apparently lacking in the marketing and selling of horses.

[frugalannie]

Finally had a chance to read this thread.

LLDM, I'm with you. At least part of LLDM's point, as I read it, was don't go to either extreme. Don't breed any horse just for the sake of breeding, but seriously evaluate a horse before deciding that it is NOT breeding material as well. If a horse makes all the inital criteria (demonstration of athleticism {which successful racing can be}, soundness mentally and physically, good conformation, bloodlines), why not take the time to evaluate further before making an irrevocable decision? I am in no way suggestion that everyone should be running around doing this, but for those who have educated themselves, have the interest and the means, I say Hallelujah. And lets find a way to keep track of horses and their performance.

Elghund, your point is well taken, also. But the majority of horses eventing are sold on their own performance, and will not be high level horses. There is the whole issue of the segmentation of the eventing market. There are those who buy young stock based on breeding for themselves or for resale, there are those who buy horses that are already competing, and there are those that buy OTTBs. Three very different markets for the same sport.