Who's been through the L program?

[Passage2]

I'm considering taking the L program and I'm Looking for personal experiences and opinions of what it's like. I've reviewed the requirements and FAQ's on the USDF website. Does it entail a lot of public speaking? What is the pass rate? Do you feel that the instructors and testing are fair? In your opinion, why are people failing? Is it worth it? Any specific resources or reading material that really helped you? Has it given you more credibility from your peers and students? What does it take to graduate "with distinction."

[friesian4me]

I did the L about 5 years ago. I am an amateur rider and I graduated with distinction. Other than knowing what you are looking at, you need to be able to think quickly, make a decision, and move on. You will be called on and need to score and comment in front of the group. You can't be shy or wishy washy. I learned so much during the program. It is worth it.

Some of the instructors are better than others. Not sure of the fail rate but it looks like everyone in my group passed. Less than half with distinction. (eligible for the r program)

[Capriole]

I recommend auditing first, if that's an option. It's often not what people expect, and a fair number drop out partway through the program. Auditing will give you an exposure to the program at a lower cost!

There is not a lot of public speaking per se. There is some oral judging, where you will be asked to give scores and comments verbally, and the group will hear you. The instructors will also call on people to answer questions.

The pass rate varies a great deal. I have noticed anecdotally that the past four programs or so have had a very high pass rate. You really need to know the USEF rules cold, be able to recite the definitions of certain thing (e.g., the collective marks), know the directives of the tests, etc. More or less memorization of some of these things. People who come into the program with a strong command of theory do better. For example, knowing that the forehand should slightly lead in the leg yield, and how many tracks a shoulder in has. Most candidates need to do quite a bit of studying and practice judging outside of the sessions themselves.

I think it's an excellent program, although I agree with the previous poster that some of the instructors are better than others.

[FriesianX]

I also went through the L program in the past few years. I'll agree with Friesians4Me - if you aren't confident enough to stand by your decision and be able to defend it, you'll wash out quickly!

Skills:
You need to not only be quick, you need to be quickly articulate - you have to be able to voice what you see in just a few words, without hesitating. You don't have TIME to hesitate and search for the right words.

You need to be able to listen and learn from the instructors - I started with a group of 20 (yes, 20, a double session!), and a few washed out quite early because they thought they knew more than the faculty.

YOu don't need to be a public speaker in a traditional way - but you have to be able to score rides and parts of rides in front of a group, and be able to defend your scores and comments when questioned - in front of the group. The group may often include auditors, so it may be a group of 10 people, or it may be a group of 50 people!

You need a good eye - if you can't see what is going on, you need to be able to develop that (and the L program will help, but if you don't start with a good foundation, you're starting way behind the 8-ball). A good eye doesn't mean you have to be a trainer, there are a few of us who are adult ammies who did quite well. Dressage Art (on this bb) is also an adult ammie who passed with distinction (she and I went through the program about the same time - but two different programs, and we met by scribing for OTHER participants in our respective programs :yes:).

In the 3 programs I saw in my area (my double program which tested in two parts, and the one that DA went through), we were a handful of adult ammies. Two washed out right away in my group. A third joined us in one of the testing sessions - she was re-testing. Of the three that actually TESTED (remember, two of them didn't test at all), all passed with distinction. I think we were the only ammies in the bunch:winkgrin:

Reading Material:
USDF will provide you with a list of suggested reading materials. My biggest suggestion - read the RULE book and KNOW it. Sit and scribe with judges so you have an idea of the flow and the language. You will be tested on the rules, and you will be asked questions throughout the sessions.

Pass Rates:
One thing to remember as you look through the PASS rates, that does not include the people who simply didn't TEST. The faculty is pretty good about letting people know up front where their weaknesses are, and whether they should even bother taking the exam. So some people never test - and are not included in the %.

Pass rate varies CONSIDERABLY by group. And the group you go through the first sessions with may not be the same group you test with. Of my initial 20, several were simply told NOT to test, they wouldn't pass. Some tested more than once, so tested in different groups a 2nd time. A few just dropped out, and a few joined us mid-session.

In my testing group (10 people), the faculty said it was one of the strongest groups they'd worked with, yet we had only a few who passed with distinction (3 or 4 if I remember right, it's been a few years), and a few who didn't pass. Some in my testing group were re-taking the exam to try to up their previous scores. In the prior 10 (remember, I started with 20), I think about half of them passed, only a few with distinction. Of other people I know who have been through the program in various years, the pass rate seems to vary between 30% and 100%, and the pass with distinction seems to vary between 0% and 50%.

Why do people fail?
I can't speak for why everyone fails, but in my group, we were evaluated in front of EVERYONE ELSE after the practice testing session. So we all knew each others strengths and weaknesses;)

Some trainers washed out because they weren't able to separate the line between TRAINING and JUDGING - there is a huge difference. You must be able to comment on what you see at that moment. Not what might be, or what was in the last ride, or what the rider needs to do to fix what is.

Some people didn't score and comment fast enough. If you have to say "ummm" more than once, you probably won't make it. If you turn in test sheets with no comments, you won't make it. Some people just fell behind - especially at 2nd level where things start happening faster.

Some didn't have comments and scores that matched. For example, "Good Effort" can NOT be a 6! Good = 8. Or (in TOH), "stuck behind twice" can not be an 8.

Some people just didn't recognize the basics of what was going wrong - the collectives must be evaluated first. If a horse is bucking, who cares if there wasn't enough angle in the shoulder in. If a horse is throwing his head in the air, who cares whether he took three steps or ten in the change of lead through the walk, etc.

To Pass With Distinction:
It is a score cut off on both the written and oral exam. I forget if the cut off is 70% or 75% on the oral, which is the tougher part of the testing. I think 75% - if it isn't on the USDF website, I can look it up for you. Remember, they score like a dressage judge :lol: 75% is a tough score to achieve - somewhere between fairly good and good.

Respect, Education, etc:
It was a great education - as F4Me said, not all instructors are created equal, but some of them are FABULOUS, and most are at least good. They all have good eyes, and a strong dressage education and a lot to teach us. Some are better teachers than others, obviously. But - it isn't easy to make it to the faculty level, so quality control is pretty good there. And I get the impression they monitor each other too.

The materials could use some professional make over (coming from someone who is a bit of a training/presentation fanatic and makes a living doing non-horsie presentations), but much of it is useful, and I understand they are constantly improving it.

Respect? I don't know - I find local trainers are happy to have me come judge, does that count? I think it helps - having any kind of credentials. But I also think a lot depends on what people thought of you before. If you are already showing (or training) in the area and respected for that, it is just one more piece of your reputation. And if you already have a reputation that isn't so stellar, the L won't help. I know of a Nor-Cal trainer who is NOT well respected who went through one of the sessions, passed but not with distinction, and still not respected:winkgrin: - I know two others who had to take it a few times to pass, but those trainers came in well liked and respected, and after not passing the first time, were still totally respected, fabulous trainers.

The program is NOT cheap - and the testing is an additional fee (also not cheap). So, if you go into it, go in prepared to really "go for it" and get your money's worth! The program itself seems to cost somewhere between $2500 and $3500/participant, and the testing is another $750 - $1000. Add to that costs for travel - varies depending on where you are and where your program is held, costs for your scribe, and TIME costs.

A GOOD scribe is CRUCIAL to passing. And putting time into it - you must sit with, and scribe for judges and document the hours. Don't go with the minimum hours - get as many hours as you can. It will help you. I continue to scribe long after passing because it continues to help me. If one of my favorite L faculty comes to the area to judge, I'm usually first in line asking to scribe for them.

That is probably FAR more than you were asking for :lol: But, the L program is a HUGE endeavor!

[Sonesta]

Fx, that was a very good and accurate post!

I audited the "L" program (all the way through!) a couple years ago. VERY VALUABLE experience. And the faculty treated the auditors the same as the judge candidates (if you wanted to be treated as such) and had us up judging as well.

I came back with a great deal of good info to use with my own riding and that of my students. It was nice to know how the judges think and how they are trained.

Bottom line for me is, I think anyone wanting to go for their "L" license probably ought to audit first (at least one or two sessions) to make sure they are up to it! It's intense.

[Dressage Art]

Such a great feedback you've got already!

I can add is I think the passing rate is about 3/4 and passing with a "Distinction" is 1/3. About 25 people went through my "L" program, but maximum of 10 people can take the final exams. Before the final exam, some people decided not to take it, so only 8 of us went to the final. Of the 8, two did not pass, two passed, and four passed with distinction. After waiting several long weeks, I got my final scores by mail with the certificate of graduation with distinction.

Most people fail b/c even they might be very good in physical training of horses, they do not shine in the classroom. So if you didn't do well in school/college, that might be a continues issue. There are lots and lots of memorizations!

Go with an open mind and be ready to change some of your opinions. I know I had to! :lol: Some people had a hard time with that, thus failed the program.

Most of "L"s know each other and each others strengths/weaknesses. Most end up judging at the same shows if the barn has "show series". Most do get asked to recommend other "L"s for the shows that they can't judge at. For example, both FriesianX and I recommended each other. Since there are not very many "L"s around, you get to know quite fast who is good and whom to ovoid.

I stared to write an "L" blog back then when I went thru the program, but never finished it. You can see it here: http://www.dressageart.com/l_dressage_judge.htm
I can't seem to find the time to finish it myself. Actually, if any "L"s would want to "donate" their feedback or articles to my blog, please let me know. I'll be happy to publish them on my blog and give you a full credit with a link to your website.

Be very clear what is required of you at the final exam. This is how mine went for me :lol: : http://www.dressageart.com/l_dressage_judge_exam.htm

I know that FriesianX final exam was slightly different. We got drilled in privet by 2 instructors, they got drilled in public by 1 instructor on oral questions = both can be tough and intimidating for different reasons.

[Dressage Art]

Decided to post the evaluation form from the final exam. You also need to score yourself on that evaluation form with written comments. That should give you an idea on what you'll be tested:

http://www.dressageart.com/l_dressage_judge_exam.htm
Final Exam Evaluation Form

"L" candidates are evaluated on seven combined aspects and each of them gets a score, some are coefficient of x2. Then those scores are added up and divided by the possible points (100) so the final total percentage is drawn - just like at the dressage tests. To pass "L" program you need to score 65% and to pass with distinction you need to score 70%+. Think of it just as your dressage tests scores and percentage. I wrote a shortened and paraphrased version below:

Does the "L" candidate know what is expected on each level? Shows a clear understanding of correct development of the horse and progression of correct dressage training. Knows most important aspects for each dressage test exercise.
___ score from 0 to 10 is given with paragraph of written comments from 2 examiners.

The "L" candidate has a clear understanding of collective marks and use of appropriate vocabulary. Recognition of gait quality, rhythm and tempo. Can point out the components of impulsion and collection. Differentiates between lengthening and mediums. Can accurately describe a variety of contact issues, bend, balance, self carriage and harmony between horse and rider. Understanding of Biomechanics of rider and horse with clear analysis of the performance.

___ score from 0 to 10 is given with paragraph of written comments from 2 examiners (coefficient of x 2)
Appropriate final class placement, using a full range of scores and has a wide score percentage spread between 1st place and last place.
___ score from 0 to 10 is given with paragraph of written comments from 2 examiners.

Correctly arrives at the individual scores for each movement, based on the correct training basics, dressage training pyramid and appropriate consideration of modifiers. Appropriate vocabulary for the given scores.
___ score from 0 to 10 is given with paragraph of written comments from 2 examiners.

Keeps up with judging pace, scoring, and giving comments during the day without looking at the diagrams.
___ score from 0 to 10 is given with paragraph of written comments from 2 examiners (coefficient of x 2)

Correct use of terminology and vocabulary in insightful further remarks, useful collectives and most importantly, comments for individual scores.
___ score from 0 to 10 is given with paragraph of written comments from 2 examiners (coefficient of x 2)

Knowledgeable and appropriate application of the rules, attitude, behavior and dress appearance.
___ score from 0 to 10 is given with paragraph of written comments from 2 examiners.

[HFSH]

To the OP -- Thanks for posting this thread! I'm planning on auditing the L program that is in my area in a few months. I'm really excited to audit it! it will give me an idea if it's something I may consider persuing in the future.

I have to say I have some serious concerns about it because I know of at least 1 instructor who is in it who is NOT someone i would ever want to see sitting at C. :no: It scares me to no end that by studying really hard and memorizing, she may pass. :eek:

I haven't shown in years, and I am considering going back in the ring this year and hope that auditing the L program will refresh me both in rules (got my rulebook in the mail today in fact) and also help me to see exactly what the judges are expecting to see today in the show ring.

[FriesianX]

To the OP -- Thanks for posting this thread! I'm planning on auditing the L program that is in my area in a few months. I'm really excited to audit it! it will give me an idea if it's something I may consider persuing in the future.

I have to say I have some serious concerns about it because I know of at least 1 instructor who is in it who is NOT someone i would ever want to see sitting at C. :no: It scares me to no end that by studying really hard and memorizing, she may pass. :eek:

I haven't shown in years, and I am considering going back in the ring this year and hope that auditing the L program will refresh me both in rules (got my rulebook in the mail today in fact) and also help me to see exactly what the judges are expecting to see today in the show ring.


HFSH - realize there is much more to it than just studying and memorizing. That gets you through the WRITTEN part of the exam (anyone can pass that part with a bit of studying - in fact, they told us that only a handful of people have failed the written exam). The Oral part of the exam is the tough part. Two faculty members administer the exam, and both spend quite a bit of time evaluating a person's potential. If they have any doubts or concerns, they'll focus on that during the Oral. The Oral exam consists of the candidate judging rides at T-4, 1-4, and 2-4 while the faculty observes, AND consists of oral discussions, one-on-one and group discussions.

Then, assuming the person passes WITH DISTINCTION - they can't just apply to enter the "r" program. They must first have competed through 4th level with scores of 65% or better, AND receive letters of recommendation from judges and others. Then they apply and wait in line until an "r" opens up. "r" applicants are accepted in order - irregardless of geographic location, so if someone decides to run an "r" in California, and an applicant lives in Nebraska, they have to go to California, even if there are other applicants further down the list in California. Passing the "r" allows a person to judge through 2nd level - and moving up to the "R" requires even more time, show experience, judging experience, sitting experience, etc. Most judges will tell you it took them MANY years to get to "R" or "S". And many more "L" grads will tell you they never made it. And many "L" participants will tell you they couldn't get those "Pass With Dstinction" scores anyway...

ETA - I saw several trainers that didn't make it through the program - some didn't even PASS, and others didn't pass with distinction. So don't get too worried ;)

[Passage2]

Thanks for all the useful info. I have so much respect for all the L grads. I'm surprised that people actually complete the program and don't test. Is this encouraged? I can see if the facilitators know that someone doesn't have a chance of passing, but otherwise I don't understand. DressageArt talked about her class of 25 with only 10 spots available for testers. Can someone clarify?

[Capriole]

The A, B, and C sessions are not limited in the number of participants. The D-1, D-2, and Final Exam are limited to 10 participants.

For example, my program started with 19 people in the A session.
1 was really in another program but couldn't make their A session, so attended mine.
1 decided to wait and take Part 2 (D-1, D-2, and Final Exam) the following year.
1 couldn't get a space in the D-1, so is taking Part 2 this year.
10 tested.
6 dropped out for various reasons. Had any of those 6 wanted to go to Part 2 and test, they would have been on a waiting list for a spot, or could go to another program which had space available.

[Dressage Art]

DressageArt talked about her class of 25 with only 10 spots available for testers. Can someone clarify?
Capriole already explained that only 10 people can test, since all 10 participants with their scribes (20 people) have to fit on the long side of the arena for the final judging test for 2 days. Usually it's held at the big show as well.

At the last session before the final, instructors give you a feedback with evaluation form that is very similar to the final exam evaluation form. From that form you can see if you have a chance to pass or not. Also our instructors had 5 minutes of personal talk with each of us and honestly gave opinions if a participant should spend her money and time on the final exam or it's better to wait and study more.

We had 10 spots, but only 8 went to the final exam. Some people decided to study more and test with a different group latter. Some decided to quit all together. I personally was rooting for one participant who went thru the program 3 times, but before the exam she decided that judging is just not for her. Sad, I would off loved showing for her.

I shared hotel and travel with a friend of mine and I remember at the beginning we were thinking: "I wonder why people fail? It seems clear and straight forward!" At the end of the program both of us was thinking: "There are so many ways to fail, how anybody can get the "distinction"?"

Also, just like in real shows, there are tough judges or a bit more lenient judges who might be your examiners.

Exam costs a lot of money + time + your scribe. If people know that they will fail, they would rather not test.