advice for a "delicate" question about a better seat?

[kj2H1D]

OK, I didn't want to hijack the other thread on ways to build core strength, but one of the responses brought up an issue that is becoming "near and dear" to my heart (or seat, I guess....)

You can try ditching the saddle

I've been riding bareback a lot (because I'm lazy and into avoidance, and my horse was going through an extremely girthy- to the point of dangerousness- phase), and have found that if you ride like you normally do bareback, it leaves the abs feeling well worked

By "normal" I mean not putzing around, but actually working on forward gaits, lateral movement, real flatwork, etc.

Probably works especially well on a horse with a backbone, as you have to work a little harder and use that core more to protect yourself from injuring the unmentionables.

I've been told by numerous instructors in the past that I grip with my legs too much (which, of course, can lead to pinching with your knees, ducking while jumping, rolling onto the back of your thighs, and a host of other issues that prevent you from effectively using your seat). So in this icy winter when riding at home is out, I've decided to take weekly lunge line lessons at a nearby lesson barn and conquer the seat issue once and for all -- at least that's the hope! It is very hard to learn to just stay relaxed and not grip during the transitions and, of course, I end up bouncing around a lot. Every time I do, the instructor gets very excited that even though it "feels" worse to me, it's so much better than when I grip. And I've certainly gotten better at not gripping and in general the transitions have improved, too... but still too much bouncing, especially canter to trot, but also at the trot when I'm using a bouncier horse for the lunge line lesson. However, I can see the logic behind how gripping pops you up out of the saddle so to truly be deep in the saddle, I have to stay relaxed and deep in it. I imagine eventually I will learn to use my hips better to stay with the horse, but at least for now, these weekly lessons do quite a number on my "private parts". (And every time I feel it the worst, the instructor is the most happy that I'm actually doing it right!!) So for now I'm sticking with this, hoping that just like I learned to comfortably sit on a jigging horse (whereas a beginner rider might bounce a lot when the horse jigs), eventually I'll learn to go with the motion better. However, in the meantime as I prepare each week to go off to my lesson, my husband has taken to asking me if I'm off to my "weekly mutilation session". (There is a little validity to this point of view!)

So.... I know this issue doesn't get raised much but if anyone has suggestions, I would very much like to hear them! (The alternative is maybe to just develop a more effective half-seat without gripping so much! But that's not going to help me with the dressage part of eventing!) And from the above quote from the other thread, I am wondering if this issue would just go away if I had better core strength? (I know I am very weak in my abdominals!) So.... I'll definitely work on that in any case!

[RacetrackReject]

Is the Inverness thread still around? =)

[kj2H1D]

Uh.... yes, sounds like an Inverness problem indeed (though not due to jeans in this case.) (And, of course, the resulting "Invernessitis"!)

But thanks... that did help bring up lots of relevant threads! (I wasn't sure exactly what to search for before, but now I know lots of new relevant euphemisms!)

[mjrtango93]

Also if you are getting that sore in the nether regions it sounds like you are too perched on your crotch and need to slightly rotate your hips so your sitting on your butt instead. All that padding is there for a reason (thats what I keep telling myself anyway :winkgrin:). Just a slight rotation could greatly help your little problem while still having an effective seat (and probably making hubby a little happier too)

[Mach Two]

It is possible that the twist of your saddle (the narrowest part, right where you sensitive parts make contact) is a bit too narrow,or too high for you. YOu might try a different saddle, one that does not rise sharply in front of you when you sit down...it is really a matter of how your anatomy meets the saddle, and whe I was doing a lot of saddle fittings, female riders would pull me asoide (I am female also) and quietly ask what the problem might be making them "sore" and time after time, it was a narrrow twist. (Not to be confused with a narrow tree...they are different things .

You may also not have much natural padding there, and a bicyclist' s padded undergarment may do the trick for you. Look to the saddle first.

[kj2H1D]

You may also not have much natural padding there, and a bicyclist' s padded undergarment may do the trick for you. Look to the saddle first.

Yes, that's a good point. This has never happened to me before before but I'm taking the lunge line lessons on the school horse saddle so it possibly doesn't fit me well. However, to be honest that saddle felt like it was a "better" dressage saddle in that I felt like I naturally sat deeper in it with my leg back better. (My own dressage saddle is an ancient Stuebben Tristan .... but it's amazing how many of the older clinicians I've worked with have waxed poetic about the fond memories they have riding in that model saddle! However, when I first got it I didn't even realize it was actually a dressage saddle and I hunted in it for 2 years before someone told me! :D)

So that's a good suggestion to try bringing my saddle to the next lesson and see if that solves the problem. However, it's also possible that it also might never have happened in my old saddle because my tight grip does keep me perched a little bit off the saddle! But it'll be a good experiment to try! (I did order padded underwear from Dover.... with no improvement!)

[fitzwilliam]

I can relate to both your pain and dilemma, however lunge lessons and riding without stirrups are so good for my position! as an avid cyclist, think lots of saddle time, you can try some padded bike shorts under your breeches and/or Chamy butter/Assos cream, ask the bike shop guys they will know immediately since it is key for long rides for both males and females! it really decreases irritation and chafing to those sensitive areas, good luck

[riderboy]

Christopher Bartle, in his book "Training the Sport Horse" says that it's OK to bounce in sitting trot .Copies of that book are hard to find but Mr Bartle is probably one of, if not the most knowledgable horseman in the world. His CV is too vast to list here. He is currently the German Olympic eventing coach.

[OneDaySoon]

Christopher Bartle, in his book "Training the Sport Horse" says that it's OK to bounce in sitting trot.

Please tell my horse :no:!

[Doodlebug1]

I'm glad Christopher's book has made it to the States, I used to work for him; it was a great time. Many instructors (not me!) who trained under him and still work for him travel to the states regularly to teach, as does his very talented sister Jane (who takes some getting used to but is possibly the more gifted teacher).

Anyway, back to sitting trot.... CJB does say it's OK to bounce, but he doesn't mean to the point it makes your bits hurt (men would never advocate that!!)! More that a lot of people think that sitting trot is about sitting waaay behind the vertical and driving their hips into the horse. This often results in the horse hollowing away from the rider. What he means more is that the more relaxed you are, the looser and therefore bouncier you are. Your body should remain vertical (or very slightly behind) and not 'forced' behind the vertical. There is a difference between the 'soft' tension of maintaining your posture and the 'hard' tension caused by gripping/nerves/lack of balance or forcing your body into unnatural positions.

In fact, what he says is:
a) unless horses back muscles are relaxed you won't get a good sitting trot
b) it is harder to go from rising trot to sitting trot than from walk directly to sitting trot.
Then:
'the relaxed seat with a good posture absorbs the movement of the trot through relaxed buttock, relaxed hips and the elastic relationship between back and abdominal muscles as the pelvis is inclined at or just behind the vertical. An athlete can not perform in tight clothing, similarly the horse's back cannot function correctly if the rider keeps his thigh clamped onto to the saddles trying to be like a limpet. 'the more you bounce, the better they go' is what I often say to my pupils, AS LONG AS YOU MAINTAIN YOUR POSTURE WITHOUT STIFFNESS.'

I definitely agree that checking the saddle is a good point. This will mean addressing this issue with your instructor (she's bound to ask why the saddle change) - you never know, she might have some tips. My top tip would be relaxing your lower back/hips/pelvis totally - like think relaxation on the scale of post, best ever s*x (are we allowed that word on here?? Hmmm, guess the moderators will soon let me know!). Err, also better clarify, that analogy did not come from the Bartles!

Thanks for reminding me of Christopher's book, I could do with some inspiration, so I'll dust it off and get reading.

[Ibex]

I had a saddle that did that... it ended up being counter productive to try and sit in it because I ended up bracing to avoid "the issue".

Maybe try your own, or see if there's something you can borrow that fits the horse AND you. It wasn't until I got really good saddle that fit me well that I learned to relax and have a "good" bounce that went with the motion instead of being a jackhammer on the poor horse's back.

[kj2H1D]

I'm glad Christopher's book has made it to the States, I used to work for him; it was a great time. Many instructors (not me!) who trained under him and still work for him travel to the states regularly to teach, as does his very talented sister Jane (who takes some getting used to but is possibly the more gifted teacher).

Anyway, back to sitting trot.... CJB does say it's OK to bounce, but he doesn't mean to the point it makes your bits hurt (men would never advocate that!!)! More that a lot of people think that sitting trot is about sitting waaay behind the vertical and driving their hips into the horse. This often results in the horse hollowing away from the rider. What he means more is that the more relaxed you are, the looser and therefore bouncier you are. Your body should remain vertical (or very slightly behind) and not 'forced' behind the vertical. There is a difference between the 'soft' tension of maintaining your posture and the 'hard' tension caused by gripping/nerves/lack of balance or forcing your body into unnatural positions.

In fact, what he says is:
a) unless horses back muscles are relaxed you won't get a good sitting trot
b) it is harder to go from rising trot to sitting trot than from walk directly to sitting trot.
Then:
'the relaxed seat with a good posture absorbs the movement of the trot through relaxed buttock, relaxed hips and the elastic relationship between back and abdominal muscles as the pelvis is inclined at or just behind the vertical. An athlete can not perform in tight clothing, similarly the horse's back cannot function correctly if the rider keeps his thigh clamped onto to the saddles trying to be like a limpet. 'the more you bounce, the better they go' is what I often say to my pupils, AS LONG AS YOU MAINTAIN YOUR POSTURE WITHOUT STIFFNESS.'

I definitely agree that checking the saddle is a good point. This will mean addressing this issue with your instructor (she's bound to ask why the saddle change) - you never know, she might have some tips. My top tip would be relaxing your lower back/hips/pelvis totally - like think relaxation on the scale of post, best ever s*x (are we allowed that word on here?? Hmmm, guess the moderators will soon let me know!). Err, also better clarify, that analogy did not come from the Bartles!

Thanks for reminding me of Christopher's book, I could do with some inspiration, so I'll dust it off and get reading.


Wow, this reply has been very educational... on several fronts! How you described the "bouncing" that is "encouraged" in Christopher's book is exactly how I would have imagined it to work. You have to let go so you aren't bouncing off the horse, but instead are softly bouncing with the horse. I think I am very tight in my hips. (Always have been.... even as a kid when almost every other girl could, I couldn't do a split.) Will strengthening my abs give me better core support to help me get looser in my hips? Are there other exercises to work on hip relaxation?

[Dixon]

Maxi pads.

[SeaPony]

Have you considdered that your pelvis may be tilted? Mine is and I have trouble finding saddles that work well with my anatomy. I was told old kiefers and passiers may be best. Here is how someone explained it to me on another BB.

Sit on a flat chair with your legs slightly in front of you, shoulder width apart. Place a hand on the chair and measure how many fingers you can fit before you get to the seam in your jeans, which should correlate to your crotch bone. If you can fit more than three, your pelvis is naturally tilted. I can fit five fingers.
In my case it leads me to a natural chair seat that is impossible to overcome.

Hopefully someone else can chime in here, as Im pretty new to this discovery and dont know all the implications of having a tilted pelvis.

[pony grandma]

Have you considered that your pelvis may be tilted?

Exactly what I was thinking. If you're tilted you'll have to learn how to roll back into your seat more (ie: sit on your pockets). Learning to sit the canter, ride like a cowboy, in a western saddle will really help. Unusual advice but my girls learned to ride both disciplines and I saw that it was a very beneficial advantage. Several eventing clinicians commented on their seats, that they could really 'follow' a horse unusually well. Then they nodded when I offered up the explanation and the secret to their quiet ease in the saddle.

[Fanfara]

I have seat problems to, I take a lot of lunge lessons and it really helps me.:yes: