Why is the TB being replaced in the hunt field?

[LookinSouth]

I have some questions in response to the "what breed to you hunt" poll/thread. According to the poll the Draft cross is nearly even in popularity with the TB and amazingly the "Other" category is not too far behind. I presume many that picked the other category hunt a TBX of some sort (such as myself).

Was the TB originally "the" breed to hunt in America? ( I am asking because I don't know this for fact)
If so, why has that changed? I noticed in the commentary of the thread alot of people stated they hunt TB crosses of some sort. Why has the full TB potentially declined in popularity while riding to hounds?

When I see ads for hunt horses they are almost always some sort of cross. Of course that cross often includes TB blood as well.

I am interested to hear the opinions of others whom hunt a cross of some sort and why they prefer a cross.

If you prefer to hunt a full TB please share your opinion as well :)

[ArtilleryHill]

I hunt a Thoroughbred. They're fast, smart, athletic, and game--just like our hounds!

[Hunter's Rest]

I hunt (and hire out) almost strictly thoroughbreds.
The reason less tb's in the modern hunt field, in my opinion, is that more people are 'taking up' foxhunting later in life (rather than starting in a basket in front of mom, then progressing to a pony on leadline, then a small quiet pony, then a sharp blood pony, then a small horse, then tb's) and they require a steadier mount.
Plus, there is little 'wide open' territory anymore (due to land loss) so tb blood is not quite as requisite to stay with sport in tighter fixtures.

[beanie&boomer]

I prefer a sound, sane, athletic TB over almost anything else, because these horses seem to be the smartest, most sensitive, are usually athletic, and are finally the least likely to tire out on a long day of hunting. I like my Cleveland Bay crosses (with a big dose of TB) because they seem to come pre-programmed with good hunting sense and take to it right away. I ride some draft crosses as resale projects because that's what lots of riders seem to be able to deal with, and many do take good care of their riders, but those would not be my personal choice.

[SteeleRdr]

A good hunt horse is a good hunt horse, no matter the breed.

Personally I prefer a good TB. Good bone, good stamina, and good mind.

I think part of the reason you see more DraftX's is as HR said. There are many people out there that require something a bit more "steady." Not to mention, there are a lot who just don't have the time or experience to make a TB anymore, in my experience. We have sold a good many TB's to hunting homes over the years, and many people are shocked that we sell a good hunting horse, but that's the business we're in. (not really, but the lady I ride for uses the money from selling to fund the horses, etc; and we don't sell many a year). I think another reason is the onslaught of PMU foals in the US and them being marketed towards foxhunting as a job they can do. Many of the faster hunts you won't see as many DraftX's, but there are definitely some there and that can do it.

I think I'm rambling, but that's what I get for trying to write this while in class.....

[Juneberry]

I'm guessing in a lot of cases the TB crosses were hoping for the agility, smarts and speed of the TB's but cross with something heavier for an easier keeper.

[Chall]

Anyone think it's rider weight that pushes them to a larger horse?

[LookinSouth]

Anyone think it's rider weight that pushes them to a larger horse?


Hmmm... that could definitely be a possibility.

That said, when I think of TBX's I don't think strictly of draft crosses. I think of any breed a TB may be crossed with that is likely to give it more bone and perhaps a quieter temperment. Even an appendix or a 3/4 TB 1/4 WB would fit that bill. They may not actually be all that much bigger than a full TB in many cases.

It just seems there are TBX's of many varieties in the hunt field these days which sparked my curiosity.

FWIW, My own horse is a TBX. He's a Paint/TB cross (breeding stock). I have owned a full TB as well that would have been spectacular for the hunt field (if he could have only been sound) he actually had a better mind than the TBX in the sense that he was less competitive with other horses, but my TBX gets better and better every time we go out. But then again the full TB wasn't an American TB, he was a Canadian TB, had a good deal of bone and he was an unsuccessful race horse. He also didn't have the conformation, smooth gaits and jump that makes the TBX a great mount to hunt.

[Xanthoria]

I think the popularity of the PMU horse or other draft crosses is indeed partly due to heavier riders, and less experienced riders - they need a nice, steady, up to weight horse.

I've no idea how the TB became the horse of choice in the US, if it is/was. You have to be pretty on your game to hunt a very fit TB! In the UK and Europe remember the ideal hunting horse is a type - the hunter or cob - not a breed. Very often they are TB crosses, of course.

Lightweight hunter (http://www.theshowring.co.uk/images/lightweighthunter.jpg): To carry up to 175#. 16.1hh-16.2hh with about 8 1/2 inches of bone

Middleweight hunter (http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/3372930.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=89B856506CE546540DB189EDCDA1B381A55A1E4F32AD3138 ): To carry between 175-196# About 16.3hh and with about 8 3/4 to 9 inches of bone

Heavyweight hunter (http://www.dress-circle-horsewear.com/acatalog/images/thumbnails/Carol-boots6-s.jpg): To carry over 196#. Need not be more than 17hh but should have 9 or 10 inches of bone.

Cob (http://www.farmersguardian.com/Pictures/web/a/k/q/HOYS_robert_oliver.jpg): Various weight categories. Should not exceed 15.1hh and have at least 8" of bone

http://www.theshowring.co.uk/hunters.php

[Grannie's Grey]

I have hunted with both. A TB in my younger years and a TB cross now. I love both.

I believe the change came when the bone was bred out of the TB. Yes you can find TB's with good bone, but not the bone of there ancesters.

As humans, we believe we can improve on all breeds; dogs, horses etc. We have bred Moon Blindness into our appys while improving the breed; thin weedy legs on TB's to improve their speed etc. The only thing we haven't bred out of a TB is their heart. They will run on broken bones because that is what we ask and their heart is telling them.

I have a TB cross with the heart of a TB and the bone of yesteryear. That is why I switched.

[LookinSouth]

I've no idea how the TB became the horse of choice in the US, if it is/was. You have to be pretty on your game to hunt a very fit TB! In the UK and Europe remember the ideal hunting horse is a type - the hunter or cob - not a breed. Very often they are TB crosses, of course.




I agree and I wondered the same thing!

[armandh]

Anyone think it's rider weight that pushes them to a larger horse?

yep; started riding late in life, still inept after all of 3 lessons, now old, collecting SSI, and overweight
I don't need to mis communicate with a sensitive horse
I am on my second draft/[not TB] cross after a tall QH
http://www.pbase.com/lesliegra/image/103789742 [on the right]
this second one is much more laid back than the one pictured in my profile

[Jleegriffith]

Just an opinion but I think it reflects the overall shift away from Tb's in all disciplines. I sell a lot of horses (mostly ottb's) and people are not being taught the necessary skills one must have to ride a more sensitive type of horse. Note I did not say a hot horse b/c I don't believe tb's are hot but they are sensitive. You have to have an educated seat, hands and legs. Many lessons programs have steered away from the tb's hence people might never learned the difference. I see so many trainers who steer students away from tb's and express a general dislike for the breed. That tends to filter down. The loss of land would be another factor in that you don't need a horse with as much stamina as when you would go for more than 3hrs and cover more land. I do think it matters where you hunt, what kind of fences you jump and the average amount of time you are out hunting. Again, I am new to fox hunting but have pondered these same sorts of questions.

Tb's have always been my breed of choice. I always find it a bit odd when people seemed shocked how lovely all my green tb's are. This season I have hunted three tb's under the age of 7 in their first year of hunting and each of them has been quiet and straightforward to ride. I suppose that could be because I have grown up following the model that Hunter's rest spoke of graduating from small pony, smaller hotter horse and then making up my own tb's and helping with the horses we had coming off the racetrack. I love tb's because of their ability to take care of themselves and from my first season observations, hunting takes a horse who has brains, self preservation, athletic ability, balance, stamina, scope and heart! I would add in comfort on the top of my list but what is comfortable to me is different for other people. My tb's are not hot type of tb's. They don't want to race, they don't jig, they don't need tranq's and when the going gets tough I would trust them to take care of me.

The bone well that is a whole other issue. I have one Tb that is easily mistaken for a cross b/c he has huge bone with big feet and a head that looks out of place on a tb:lol: I used to find him unattractive but he grew into his body. I have been told his breeding probably has something to do with his build. http://www.pedigreequery.com/the+boppus
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2448513340058815717rDWQic
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2647711980058815717CjaNMp

The other horse I hunt medium boned but still bigger boned than most tb's with a wide chest, barrel and hind end. http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2715089930058815717SXCYlr

[xeroxchick]

I think it also has to do with all those PMU babies flooding the US in the past decade. Hunting is where they fit in. Breed availability, plus it's not just people coming to riding late it's also women who rode as teens, went to college, married, had kids and now have to take less risks and have less nerve (rightfully so). Less are getting OTTBs. That being said, a good TB can be just as sane and steady as a good draft cross or QH. A young draft cross can sure run away with a rider! It's all in the perception.

[Trakehner]

I think it's two-fold.

One is weight...but that's really an excuse.

The main reason? Lousy riders. Way too many riders who never learned the basics, never sat on a horse bareback, never jumped bareback, can't ride a canter other than in 2-point and are fairly numb twixt the ears. TBs prefer a rider, too many modern riders are passengers.

[Everythingbutwings]

How about the simple reason that many people have one horse and that happens to be the horse they ride for pleasure, take to shows or hunt. I seriously doubt that a person who hunts a couple times a month is going to purchase an additional horse to hunt on.

Those who have ridden for a while and gone through a few horses in their lifetime tend to choose their next mount with an aim towards their preferred activity.

I happen to have Tb's. Now, I may watch the staff's mounts and think "wow, that tb/draft cross sure is a good mix for hunting" but I'm not going to go buy one when I have a perfectly useful mount already. Plus, out of my friends who hunt, only two that I know aren't up on a thoroughbred. One hunts her steady eddie but has a barn full of young tb prospects, the other hunts her Irish Draught/tb cross. That leaves 8 - 10 other friends up on thoroughbreds.

Fully a third of the responses in that poll are thoroughbred. I'd say that's pretty solid. I can't see anyone thinking the thoroughbred is being "replaced" in the hunt field. Around here, people hunt what they have, especially when they are new to hunting or occasional participants.

[wateryglen]

I agree with the other posters. But there have been so many good traits bred out of tb's that we see a lot of ottb's from smaller tracks that have bad feet, spindly legs and smaller slab sided frames and are hot. Sad to see what breeders do to a breed for money imho. Combine thier temperments with bad handling as youngsters(physically and mentally) and we have too many that are unsuitable for hunting in our area.

I'm just not up to a "bottomless" horse physically myself I must admit. Can't hunt for hours & hours & miles & miles so I don't need a tb. I think the ideal cross for me is a 3/4 something/draft cross altho all mine are halfbreds. The better tb's are outa my price range too. But I love riding them!

[Bogie]

I think the answer is 1) fashion and 2) a temperament issue. Warmbloods now dominate the hunter, jumper and dressage arenas. If you want to do more than hunt you will lean toward a more versatile horse. Draft crosses are trendy. There is the perception that they are steady eddies and many of them are but I've seen some pretty riled up ones too! Many people like to watch the hounds work without having to spend every second concentrating on our horses and most of us have to pack up and go to work (even after a weekday hunt) and we want to be in one piece.

Basically it comes down to the individual horse.

For for 5 years I hunted a Trakehner who was hands down one of the best hunt horses ever. Quiet, brave, stood at the check, jumped anything, went through everything. People always commented on how nice he looked to hunt. The only problem with him was that he wasn't that quick on his feet and was a bit trippy in certain conditions.

Now I hunt a TB. He was much more of a handful when I started and it meant a ton more concentration and really riding him. He's turning into a nice horse given a few more seasons under his girth will most likely even learn to stand at the check. Getting him to hunt has taken more of an investment in time and training. On the plus side, he is so light on his feet and catty that I never worry about him tripping. He also never has trouble keeping up with the field!

[GollyGee]

I have standing orders from several fox hunters for TB's geldings, but they want 16.2+ - 17H handers for tall men.
I have no trouble selling OTTB's to fox hunters. They love them:):)

[CC]

For most of my hunt career, I hunted an appendix QH. My sister hunted his TB dam.

I now hunt a full TB but he was given to me and he is working out in the huntfield so that is what I ride. Plus, I do like him!!

In his younger years, he would have been a horse for first flight in Greenspring or Elkridge-Harford and he is much better to hunt when he gets to do long gallops. BUT, he has an old fracture and some arthritis, so he has learned to cope in second flight in my conservative hunt. A TB is really not necessary in my hunt. In fact, our first flight tends to boogie and then stop dead which makes my horse a bit crazy. So, just going easily along at a slower pace seems to make him happier.

My hopefully next hunt horse is also TB. He was also given to us as a 2 yr. old to heal from a leg injury. He is sound and laidback so he will go out next season and see how he does!

[LookinSouth]

Fully a third of the responses in that poll are thoroughbred. I'd say that's pretty solid. I can't see anyone thinking the thoroughbred is being "replaced" in the hunt field. Around here, people hunt what they have, especially when they are new to hunting or occasional participants.

In the past *if* the TB was mainly the breed used in the hunt field and it currently only makes up roughly +/- 1/3. I would say they are being replaced to some degree. Of course they not being replaced fully, that is not what I meant at all. The question was also posed to those that hunt on a regular basis and hunting is their discipline of choice. I assume such people chose their horse with the intentions of using it for hunting.

[Beverley]

I agree with much of what has been said. TB's just aren't 'in' these days for a number of reasons. One has only to peruse COTH stallion issues over the years to see that where once, most of the ads were for TBs standing as performance/sport horse sires, this last issue had zero, I think. So, seems like the only way to get a tb is breed 'em yourself or get a track reject.

I first rode selle francais horses in France back in late 60s/ early 70s, and really, really liked those rides. Sure 'nuff, all these years later selle francais and other warmbloods are much sought after (anybody old enough to remember the one selle francais that did well on the point to point circuit- Randy Waterman owned it I think).

That said, I do think the tb is very much the best for hunting. The best horses I've hunted over the years were tbs. Actually, the very best was 1/4 percheron- but I didn't know that when I hunted him, only learned the fact when I read his obit in the Chronicle (the famous Gilhooley's Ghost). Ironically I have mostly hunted qh's, because that's what I had when I started hunting, and the first one hunted 20 seasons.

I'm no breeding expert, but I would bet that the very best hunting warmbloods end up being mostly tb. I know my most recent warmblood, an Oldenburg/qh cross, had much tb on the Oldenburg side. So I suppose the argument could be made that for hunting, 'tb or tb cross' still predominates.

Other than the aforementioned Gilhooley, I've never been able to muster any enthusiasm for drafts or draft crosses. I hunted a borrowed Morgan/Percheron cross once that I thought was dreadful. But it could have been that despite representations otherwise, I don't think she really had ever jumped a coop before in her life, and we jumped a bunch in an hour and a half before her lack of conditioning made it really, really smart to call it a day.

But- draft and other breed fans- let me just close by saying that the 'best breed' for hunting is really what the rider likes best. It is supposed to be fun, and it's no fun if you are riding a horse that doesn't suit you. I'd really rather see EVERYONE out on the horse of their choice, the more the merrier!

A good horse is a good horse. Just now there's a tennessee walker mare packing a kid around in Nevada that I would steal in a heartbeat.

[Nlevie]

I'd have to say that I agree 100% with Trakener. Most people who I see hunting are not very good riders. . . and don't want to work at it. I started out with a Morgan cause that's what I had, and he was very game. I always thought TBs were "too hot", but then
I got smarter and found out that the good ones were the best for hunting and both my Morgan & the draft cross I had next tried hard but were not built for all that galloping, it was difficult to keep them fit enough. . . So now my husband and I both hunt TBs who were track rejects. They are the best hunt horses IMO, but I agree that they are not for everyone - they do not tolerate a heavy hand, or generally poor riding. And some of them are not easy keepers, so do require extra care in that regard. One of ours doesn't have the best feet, but otherwise I wouldn't trade them for anything !

[Everythingbutwings]

In the past *if* the TB was mainly the breed used in the hunt field and it currently only makes up roughly +/- 1/3. I would say they are being replaced to some degree. Of course they not being replaced fully, that is not what I meant at all. The question was also posed to those that hunt on a regular basis and hunting is their discipline of choice. I assume such people chose their horse with the intentions of using it for hunting.

But that's not what you asked. Why is the TB being replaced in the hunt field? is the title and question.

Perhaps a more appropriate title to get you the answers you want would be "Why are TB's in the hunt field not as numerous as in the past?" or "Why is there an influx of horses other than TB seen in the current day hunt field?"

Both of which have been answered here by people who hunt.

There has been an influx over the past 30 years of European warmbloods in all manner of horse activities. There are more choices, a horse for a rider as it were. There have always been drafts, draft crosses and a wide assortment of fabulous pony breeds hunting.

The question was also posed to those that hunt on a regular basis and hunting is their discipline of choice. I assume such people chose their horse with the intentions of using it for hunting.

Yes, and many of the long time hunters who responded have said that they chose a TB for it's stamina, it's ability to keep up with hounds in first flight, for its agility and athleticism.

I posed your question to several long time foxhunters and the general response has been that the TB has the overall talent and ability to do everything needed for a confident rider in the hunt field, especially riding first flight.

" ... the first flight is almost all TB’s. We get the occasional cross but not often. Most of the crosses tend to be in the hilltopping fields. Also most hunts are 80/20 or 90/10, hilltopping vs. first flight. So the need for speed isn’t there."


The territory of a particular hunt probably dictates to a good degree the type of horse bought specifically by a hard core foxhunter. Some hunts are known to be a slower riding group than others, partially due to the territory they hunt.


I still feel that people ride what they have. People who are shopping specifically for a hunter are going to be looking for a TB or TB crossed with some heavier breed if they have a breed preference. I'd bet those who advertise Made Fox Hunters for sale don't often get asked to bring out their Arabs or Saddlebreds or Friesians, although, depending upon the particular horse, those would make fine mounts for a person to take out.

[Ponyclubrocks]

Who cares what breed you hunt? A good horse is 1) well suited to the activity 2) fits the rider physically 3) is compatible to the riders skill level/temperament. Beyond that I don't give a rodents behind.... Sounds like some people need to feel superior because they ride breed x or y. Well, gee I am happy for you, why can't you just enjoy your horse and press on without looking for reasons to critique others choices. For what it is worth I have hunted the following: Morgans, QH's, OTTB's, Paints and Draft Crosses. Some were good and some were bad, none of the deficiencies were breed specific.
I currently hunt a paint. She is quick, smart, surefooted, a 100% reliable jumper and very cool headed. She makes any days hunting just that much more fun. I didn't buy her for her color. I bought her for her mind and her way of going. I am happy for all those that ride and enjoy their TB's (I hope all the OTTB's find good homes). But please just go out and enjoy your horse.

Sorry, I am crabby being at work today as the weather nixed our hunt (again!)

[Tantivy1]

Who cares what breed you hunt?
Sorry, I am crabby being at work today as the weather nixed our hunt (again!)

The OP posed a very good question (and it was not remotely about actually caring for what breed anyone hunts; hope you get out hunting soon :) )

Lots of good answers. I would hazard a guess too that when hunting began here in the states it was done mostly by landowners who had access to blood horses and those types of horses were actually needed to cross the open lands that were once regularly foxhunted. Of course, a lot of those lands are now asphalted etc. :(

Also, back then TBs may well have been quieter in disposition because they have been inbreed a lot more since those days. TBS ARE bred to RACE, not to run pell mell out of a fixture and then halt and stand quietly countless times as the day wears on. (This does not appear to appeal to a lot of them).

A huge attraction of the drafties is the variety to be found; you are crossing 4 plus draft breeds (I always begin with the four basics, Clyde, Shire, Perch, Belgian) with any number of other breeds (the TB and QH come to mind as the most successful crosses). You get a lot of different horses with a lot of differing abilities.

I have seen some DCs that are real stinkers, as bad as they come, BUT from a statistical standpoint, I believe that you stand a far greater chance of finding a DC that will hunt quietly and stand up to the rigours of the hunt field than you do with other breeds.

You can also start with a quiet, coarser DC and depending on your level of riding and where you hunt, you can move up to a more refined DC if you so desire....and you will see this type in some of the faster hunt fields in America, and keeping up with hounds too!

Wateryglen's post is worth a re-read, she hits on some salient points.

But I will concede, a QUIET TB is probably the best horse overall, but the problem is finding one that is quiet, has 4 good feet, four sound legs, a brain, no skin problems, and can live on air and stay out 24 x 7.

They are rare.

OH, and I loved the comment about weight - I had not seen it phrased as such, but I like to see people who "match" horses; nothing is more unattractive (and I see this frequently) than a 6'4" gentleman in newly purchased hunt togs on a 15 handish $500 fresh-off-the-track-racing-fit narrow weedy plain bay nervous TB with a bowed tendon.

Yukko

[Gestalt]

Who cares what breed you hunt? A good horse is 1) well suited to the activity 2) fits the rider physically 3) is compatible to the riders skill level/temperament. Beyond that I don't give a rodents behind.... Sounds like some people need to feel superior because they ride breed x or y. Well, gee I am happy for you, why can't you just enjoy your horse and press on without looking for reasons to critique others choices. For what it is worth I have hunted the following: Morgans, QH's, OTTB's, Paints and Draft Crosses. Some were good and some were bad, none of the deficiencies were breed specific.
I currently hunt a paint. She is quick, smart, surefooted, a 100% reliable jumper and very cool headed. She makes any days hunting just that much more fun. I didn't buy her for her color. I bought her for her mind and her way of going. I am happy for all those that ride and enjoy their TB's (I hope all the OTTB's find good homes). But please just go out and enjoy your horse.

Sorry, I am crabby being at work today as the weather nixed our hunt (again!)


Excuse please, but I thought "paint" was either a TB or a Qth with color? No? If you said you ride a Pinto, that could be anything. But a Paint, to me, brings up an image of a specific type. Sorry you had to miss hunting! Get away from your desk and "gallop" around the break room. :)

[Nlevie]

I posted earlier about loving my TB for hunting, but want to add that I am not a breed snob. I agree that any horse that gives you a good ride in the hunt field is a great hunt horse ! I don't care what breed you ride as long as they are well-behaved (most of the time - they all have their moments). It also depends a lot on what kind of country you are hunting and where in the field you like to ride ? I am a whipper-in so need the speed and endurance. But God bless those packers who can help the newbies learn and be safe. . .

[LookinSouth]

Perhaps a more appropriate title to get you the answers you want would be "Why are TB's in the hunt field not as numerous as in the past?" or "Why is there an influx of horses other than TB seen in the current day hunt field?"




I will have to ask that you please pardon my ignorance :winkgrin:

I truly didn't give the title much thought as I was led to believe I was on the hunting forum (rather than some *other* forums) where most posters generally are sincere, considerate and helpful. Most here also make the effort to scan the entire initial post before responding which read something like this...

"Was the TB originally "the" breed to hunt in America? ( I am asking because I don't know this for fact)
If so, why has that changed? I noticed in the commentary of the thread alot of people stated they hunt TB crosses of some sort. Why has the full TB potentially declined in popularity while riding to hounds?"

rather than simply scrutinize the title and reiterate what everyone else has previously shared.

However, in the future I will do my very best to forward all post titles to your highness at the COTH MicroManagement dept. for your pre- approval stamp.

Thank you for your concern :D

[gabriellemg]

I like Cleveland Bay crosses for hunting. I hunt purebred CBs, but I would like them to move off my leg faster especially in open country.
Yet they have been steady as rocks as whipper in horses going through cows, out on their own, weaving through brush, patiently watching far ends of property, etc.

I have one purebred hunting now and an upcoming purebred filly I will break this year, but I think my next hunt horse after that will be a 3/4 CB, 1/4 TB.

Never know.

We have one Anglo Trak in the hunt. My goodness that boy can move fast. We have a feisty very spotty Appaloosa which is always fun to work with.

GMG
Texas.

[Everythingbutwings]

From The Kimberton Hunt Club (http://www.kimbertonhunt.org/faq.html) website:

What kind of a horse do I need?
Many different breeds are successful hunters. The horse has to be quiet and sensible, stand quietly, not kick other horses or hounds, and make his way across country safely. He must not panic in mud or underbrush. Some horses are more suited to one country than another. For example, in a wide open country, the horse needs to be faster. If it is very rocky and hilly, you need a smaller, more nimble horse. I would pose the following:

Prior to the influx of European warmblood breeds in the second half of the last century, (fun to say that about the 1970's), people who were more affluent rode "hunters" or "saddle horses" as opposed to work horses. They had carriage horses and probably ponies for their kiddies. The average Joe might keep a horse or pony that did double duty, riding and driving, the type of horse depending upon the owner's particular needs.

Those who were not quite as well fixed, say the common farmer whose land the hunt territory crossed, more than likely had work horses, either draft crosses or perhaps of a particular breed. Remember, at this time it was common for the local farmer landowner to take his mare (or cow or sow) to a neighboring stud to be bred. (See the origins of the Upperville Colt and Horse Show (http://www.upperville.com/about_history.htm)).

The early 1900's saw the rise of the automobile just about eliminating the light saddle horse as well as the draft animals and fox hunting (and horseback riding for pleasure) became pretty much reserved as a pastime for the well to do.

Very few people actually had purebred stock of any breed. In steps the US Army Remount Depot at Front Royal! (http://www.qmfound.com/front_royal.htm) The entire article is rather interesting.

As is well known. Virginia is the home of the half bred hunter in America. More or less scientific breeding had been going on for a number of years without stimulation by the government, and the hunter type of half bred horse raised in Virginia has always demanded a high price on the market. Due to the fact that the Office of The Quartermaster General directly has had charge of the purchasing of stallions, the Front Royal Remount Depot has been a clearinghouse for stallions used in the furtherance of the breeding scheme. The majority of the best stallions purchased by the Remount Service in the last ten years have been purchased from the eastern tracks and sent to the Front Royal Remount Depot for conditioning and shipment in carload lots to other Depots and to the western zones, where large breeding operations are carried on.


...It has been noted by purchasing officers in Virginia during the last twelve months that the effect of the breeding in Virginia has not only placed a very high type of hunter on the market, but the type of horse available at a reasonable price for the Army is very superior to any that have been formerly purchased. There is now no difficulty in obtaining in Virginia a reasonable number of horses by remount or other thoroughbred sires provided they are bought from the farmer or dealer in small lots.
More on the history of the US Army Remount Service (http://www.qmfound.com/remount.htm)which had depots at various locations around the country standing thoroughbreds, Morgans and Arabians, etc, with the intention of improving local stock which would then be available for purchase as cavalry mounts.

In the mid to late 1700's up through @ 1970, the thoroughbred was pretty much the only purebred light saddle horse with the overall characteristics that allowed it to fit the particulars for foxhunting.


A field hunter, or a fox hunter, ridden by followers of the hunt, are a prominent feature of many hunts, although others are conducted on foot (and those hunts with a field of horseback-mounted riders may also have foot followers). Horses on hunts can range from specially bred and trained Field hunters to casual hunt attendees riding a wide variety of horse and pony. Draft and Thoroughbred crosses are commonly used as hunters, although purebred Thoroughbreds and horses of many different breeds are also used.

Some hunts with unique territories favor certain traits in field hunters, for example, when hunting coyote in the western U.S., a faster horse with more stamina is required to keep up, as coyotes are faster than foxes and inhabit larger territories. Hunters must be well-mannered, have the athletic ability to clear large obstacles such as wide ditches, tall fences, and rock walls, and have the stamina to keep up with the hounds.

Dependent on terrain, and to accommodate different levels of ability, hunts generally have alternative routes that do not involve jumping. The hunt may be divided into two groups, with one group, the First Field, that takes a more direct but demanding route that involves jumps over obstacles while another group, the Second Field (also called Hilltoppers or Gaters), takes longer but less challenging routes that utilize gates or other types of access on the flat.
Without doing some serious research, (although it would make a fun project and interesting article. I must get out to Horse Country Saddlery and the National Sporting Library to peruse the books on the subject :) ) I would suppose that the hunt field would have been made up of thoroughbred, thoroughbred crosses, draft crosses, and ponies. Say 70%, leaving 30% of the field to be other breeds and crosses.

Handy dandy, magnolia's poll on this forum right now has Thoroughbreds, Draft crosses and ponies making up 74% of what people who responded are hunting now.

Considering that in the late 1700's to mid 1800's, more people were likely to own crossbreds, being divided among saddle horses, light draft, heavy draft, pony and cob, and chose their animals for their ability to do the job at hand, I would posit that there are actually more pure bred thoroughbreds in the hunt field now as opposed to years ago.

Perhaps one could make an observation that the numbers of thoroughbreds being used in the club where the OP has been hunting have declined over the many years she has been going out but I would hesitate to claim that overall this is the case.

American Heritage's article "Fox Hunting in America" (http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1973/6/1973_6_62.shtml)allows a little insight into the history of the sport in the US and Canada.

...fox hunting today still adheres to strict rules of protocol established two hundred years ago. It caters primarily to the wealthy because usually only they can afford the cost of a good hunter and the means of keeping him, not to mention the expense of properly outfitting themselves. Good hunters are customarily thoroughbreds, though not the smaller, rather slight thoroughbreds found at the racetrack. And unlike the quarter horses that are bred for speed in short stretches and are commonly seen out West, hunting thoroughbreds are often crossed with heavier breeds for endurance and solidity, are taller and more muscular, and are trained to run long distances (most hunts last all day) and jump a variety of fences and ditches.

...In the 173o’s a rising prosperity in Virginia and Maryland led many of the well-to-do to breed fine racehorses as well as hunting horses for sportive riding to hounds. People also began breeding hounds specifically for fox hunting; thus they became foxhounds. Hounds originally fell into four categories, all English strains: the staghound, the southern hound or bloodhound, the fox beagle, and the harrier. As these breeds were crossed and mixed, a good foxhound was eventually developed.That old saying "horses for courses" is particularly apt.

[Badger]

Back in the day, TBs were what was most readily available, they were in the show ring as well as the hunt field. Now, as warmbloods are more popular in the show ring they are also more available for other careers as well.

Weekend riders are often not well matched on a TB that needs a bit more riding than just on a weekly hunt outing. A draft cross if often a better match for that home.

If your fieldmaster is hunted on a draft cross, you are going to be constantly nagging and holding back a TB in the field. Sometimes it's better to ride what the majority of the field is riding so you blend in with the traffic more readily.

When it comes to whipping-in, I absolutely want to be on a TB. You say "go" and they go until you say "stop." You don't have to say "keep going."

[sunnycher]

I hunted 10 years with the Red Rock Hounds in Nevada, we did have open land, fast hunts. I hunted draft crosses, and they were wonderful. My full TB was a goof out there, never could calm down.

I also hunted a young full appy (no color), looked very TB. My MFH only rides full TB, they really are they only horse who will give you what you need in a 4 plus hour hunt that is fast and furious. They are great.

But as many have said, you cannot beat draft crosses or 'other' breeds for older riders or those just beginning. The goal is to ride and have a great time. Wish we had a hunt in Idaho!!!

[Trixie]

I will have to ask that you please pardon my ignorance

I truly didn't give the title much thought as I was led to believe I was on the hunting forum (rather than some *other* forums) where most posters generally are sincere, considerate and helpful. Most here also make the effort to scan the entire initial post before responding which read something like this...

However, in the future I will do my very best to forward all post titles to your highness at the COTH MicroManagement dept. for your pre- approval stamp.

Thank you for your concern

Um, was that necessary?

I thought ETBW did an excellent and very comprehensive job of answering the questions that you asked.

I don't understand why we should "pardon the ignorance" of someone who chooses to display shoddy manners and ignore the responses of someone more educated than they are when asking a question. I know ETBW is always helpful when someone genuinely wants to learn.

[Trevelyan96]

I think it really is that the 'bone' is being bred out of today's TB, which is they are being replaced by crosses and WB's throughout the sporthorse industry.

[LookinSouth]

I thought ETBW did an excellent and very comprehensive job of answering the questions that you asked.
.


Shocking :)

I thought ETBW last post was lovely and quite helpful, actually, and I read it fully.

I think many on this forum that are familiar with me would say I am more than happy to learn . I also truly appreciate the advice of others whom have 1st hand experience in the huntfield and share their advice/opinions in a genuine manner. Whether or not you agree is your own problem :D

[LookinSouth]

If your fieldmaster is hunted on a draft cross, you are going to be constantly nagging and holding back a TB in the field. Sometimes it's better to ride what the majority of the field is riding so you blend in with the traffic more readily.



Excellent point, makes sense.

[Trixie]

The bone issue in the modern TB is an interesting point and it’s a conundrum for the racing industry: breed for speed or for long term soundness? How long will a racehorse hold up on smaller, thinner legs (further, how much faster do they go anyway?)? For someone whose goals are hunting, how long will a modern-bred ex racer hold up over solid obstacles and trappy territory at speed? Where is the midpoint between FAST and sound (safe)? When you’re buying an OTTB, is this something that most foxhunters look hard at if the horse comes off the track sound and vets out okay?

[IrishRydr]

While everyone has a favorite breed, and I don't want to step on anyone's toes, I do want to make a few points about riding a horse other than a thoroughbred. I did have a thoroughbred mare who was my first hunt horse. A little background - she was absolutely NOT my first horse! I used to event in Ireland, and did the A circuit as a junior rider. She was such a difficult horse that it was hard to enjoy my time in the field. Regarding the weight issue - that was certainly NOT a factor in my decision - 5'5" and 112 lbs. I have found true bliss in a 17.0h Registered Irish Draught gelding with a modern build. He is quick, agile, sound, and sooo sane!!! This, in my opinion, is why there has been the shift to "other" breeds for hunting.

[Merle]

It's funny reading this because my last horse was a draft cross who I evented (not an ounce of TB blood in him- he was belgian/QH) and he was a spitfire. He could NOT canter behind someone and would explode under saddle if he got left behind. We very very successfully evented, however.

Now I have a TB I got off the track two and a half years ago as a 3 year old. A bomb could go off under him and he wouldn't move. Nothing phases him and he is the most talented creature I have ever ridden. Never gets excited, acts out, etc.

So I do think that part of this change has to do with people thinking that a draft cross or TBx is calmer than the full TB. I think TBs now have "attached" to them that they are "hot". But honestly, there are lots and lots of TBs out there that are much calmer than many draft crosses. Mine is a baby and I'd still rather put someone on him than my old draft cross.

[JSwan]

Honestly I never put that much thought into it.

I just bought a nice young sound horse that was within my budget and fit my height/weight.

Then we toodled around until the light bulb went off in his head and then we did a little eventing and dressage and trail riding and stuff. Always intended to hunt - for many many years - but never could. Capped but that was it.

Then I took up hunting and the horse was a basket case until he settled down and now he's a trooper. He keeps up just fine, is a sturdy healthy horse with a good temperament and I have no trouble with the full tb's or morgans or whatever anyone else is on. I don't keep score.

Not sure the "draft crosses are easier" is really true, by the way. I rode TB's almost exclusively when I was a kid and I'd prefer a nice TB over a thick neck tank of a ticked off draft cross. (he's off at training right now):lol:

The End.

[SEPowell]

The bone issue in the modern TB is an interesting point and it’s a conundrum for the racing industry: breed for speed or for long term soundness? How long will a racehorse hold up on smaller, thinner legs (further, how much faster do they go anyway?)? For someone whose goals are hunting, how long will a modern-bred ex racer hold up over solid obstacles and trappy territory at speed? Where is the midpoint between FAST and sound (safe)? When you’re buying an OTTB, is this something that most foxhunters look hard at if the horse comes off the track sound and vets out okay?

I've seen tbs with twiggy little legs, but I've seen just as many with good bone. In fact, in my opinion, there are many tbs around with good bone, not as heavy as some of the warmbloods or draft crosses, but good enough to race and then hunt into their 20s. I think probably the most important thing for keeping a tb sound for hunting is fitness. Tbs generally won't quit when they're tired, and galloping hard when fatigued is the quickest way I know to break them down.

[starkissed]

I think for one, Tbs are kind of phasing out because they are harder to ride.
Most people really don't know how to ride and train their horses anymore, and without constant schooling/riding and everything a thoroughbred can(not always) be too much.
I have one tb hunter and a tb cross hunter. My thoroughbred is actually pretty quiet and has kind of a low stamina, so he is any easy ride out in the field. But my cross bred mare is so delightful, she isnt a clunker by any means, but has more whoa than goes most of the time. My mom has a homebred tb hunter, who she loves to deal and he is talented as all get out, but he is just one heck of a lot of horse. So her tb cross bred is a joy to ride because he is just more mellow.

the staff at our hunt rides pretty much all tbs because they happen to be free and we get a lot of those around here, steeplechase people and the like.