Don't pull..!

[hamsterpoop]

... but they don't tell you how to NOT pull! How to use your upper body as a "sail" as Danny Warrington puts it- open it up to slow down, fold it to go fast. How to squeeze with your inner thighs to slow him down without pulling back on the rein, not pinching with the knees, how to roll your thighs out and get calves on for more gas. How to weight and lighten seat and stirrup to drive forward or to allow his back to rest and gallop on. Of course, a pulsating, half halting contact is still necessary but it seems to me that a lot of people aren't really teaching how to use the upper body, leg and seat. Or is it just me?

[Hilary]

Well, I think what you've described is exactly how to do that. Now, you have to get on your horse and practice doing it! If you experiment a little you'll begin to see how your horse responds and then you can fine tune what works and fix what doesn't.

At some point you should do this while galloping out, but you can start in the ring at the trot.

[ThirdCharm]

Despite how it starts out, I think this is a "trainers suck" thread not a "how to" thread, Hillary.... :-)

As my trainer put it once, "People don't come here because I can teach them this (and that and that), but because I have a gold medal stuck in a drawer somewhere". Educated consumerism.... showing/winning at a high level or having a nice spiel doesn't always equal good teaching skills.

Jennifer

[RiverBendPol]

1*, you have certainly described the end product but (for me) it hasn't come without some serious tactics to get the point across whilst schooling. The horses have to learn to respond to the folding, opening, rolling, weighting, lightening, pulsating, ETC. that, to us, means something, to them means 'what the hell is she DOING up there?'. As my boys learn to go, they also learn to come back. Sometimes that requires a dramatic weight shift and a chop in the chops to let them know I mean what I said. Once they have it mastered, it is a delight to roll along on an xc course, lift my shoulders a hair, say "check" and immediately find myself in a bouncy show ring canter. It just takes practise, for both parties.

[purplnurpl]

Yes, many trainers suck. BUT! many trainers are very good.

I just picked up two great girls to teach. They were with an 'eventing coach' before they came to me. I met them at a CT actually.
The one showing didn't know that you are supposed to use your outside rein.

She came out of the SJ arena and said, Dang Kristen, I used my outside rein in the turns like you said it worked. What a neat TRICK! I almost had a heart attack when she said that.
Can you believe there are coaches out there calling themselves coaches and wracking in the doe and they don't even know about the use of the outside rein? SCARY!

So now we have this ongoing joke and whenever I teach them something new out of the Horse 101 book we call it a really neat trick.

[vbunny]

How about experimenting with it yourself? The best students are the ones that take responsibility for themselves and try to learn things and plan their schooling on their own as well. Instructors can give you some good ideas but trial and error and time in the tack are invaluable. You will learn more by doing and working the problem out physically than by spouting "when this happens i do this, when this happens i do this..." to yourself. That's how you learn to feel what needs to be done.

[hamsterpoop]

Hmmm.. not really an indictment of trainers; as they say - when the student is ready the teacher will appear. Perhaps they were trying to teach me and I just didn't listen or wasn't ready to listen. I also have had some very bad trainers. Teaching, especially this complex sport is tough.. The good ones make it so much easier and fun.

[Horsegal984]

Hey now Jenn.... I come around because you(and Ash) CAN teach me this( and that and that), and maybe partially because Spirit and Diva are slightly less likely to kill me xc than Jax was.... ;)

With that said, I don't expect the end result descibed here to come without a hell of a lot of hard work, but I can't wait for the day it all clicks and I do get it. I think a lot of what makes a trainer "good" or "bad" is their ability to explain and have the students get it. People learn different ways, and I think part of what makes a good trainer is learing how to explain what you want/need the student to do in different ways until it does click. Which might be part of the reason why some people are so successful with trainers who other people did poorly with

[riderboy]

The other issue I have noticed is strength. I don't think some trainers know how strong they are physically in certain parts of their bodies. For example, when they say to use your inside leg and bend your horse around it sometimes I think it's like a professonal weightlifter saying " Ya, push that barbell over your head!" The muscle control and strength may be a quite different.

[Janet]

... but they don't tell you how to ..
Who are "they"? Those are certainly things I have been taught by my instructors.

[hamsterpoop]

"They" are a glorious mix of well meaning and not so well meaning clinicians and trainers who either because I didn't or couldn't hear what "they" were saying or because "they" didn't teach it I didn't learn it. I don't live in a target rich environment for event trainers like Virginia.

[EqTrainer]

As an instructor, I will say this - if you are taking instruction from someone and they tell you DON'T PULL and they have not, at some point, stopped the motion, had you stand still, and SHOWN you exactly what you are doing and exactly what happens when you do and exactly HOW to stop doing it - and then helped you put it into practice on your moving horse - you are wasting your money.

My advice would be to save it up and spend it on ocassional lessons with someone who can teach you what you need to learn rather than wasting it. If someone tells you what to do, but not how to do it, it's useless.

FWIW, you are talking about a riding instructor, NOT a trainer. A trainer tells you how to ride your horse better. I go to a trainer, not a riding instructor. I know how to ride. If he says more bend, I know how to get it. If he says more impulsion, I know how to get it. If he says SI here, I can do it. What he cannot do, is teach me how to sit. Or teach me how to use my seat. Actually he left and went to Germany, so I am shit out of luck if I run into a horse that I need help training :cry:

Anyway, you need to know the difference. A lot of people taking money for instruction really are neither. They don't know how to teach you how to ride and they can't tell you how to train your horse, either. Some can do both and they are invaluable :) obviously they have to be able to DO both and as we all know, just because someone can do something does not mean they can also TEACH someone ELSE how to do it. It's odd like that :lol:

[purplnurpl]

The other issue I have noticed is strength. I don't think some trainers know how strong they are physically in certain parts of their bodies. For example, when they say to use your inside leg and bend your horse around it sometimes I think it's like a professonal weightlifter saying " Ya, push that barbell over your head!" The muscle control and strength may be a quite different.


This is a biggy. And is one reason why I always make a point to get on my student's horse.
You figure out really fast how weak some riders are. I hate it when I have a coach that I see more often then a regular clinician and he/she has not sat on my horse.

It's not always physical strength. A lot of it is timing of aids. A skill that takes a long time to get for some riders.
Which comes down to the above post about the student's job to experiment on their own.

[Janet]

It's not always physical strength. A lot of it is timing of aids.
Yep. there is a good passage in Bill Steinkraus's book about that.

[Carnelian]

... but they don't tell you how to NOT pull! How to use your upper body as a "sail" as Danny Warrington puts it- open it up to slow down, fold it to go fast. How to squeeze with your inner thighs to slow him down without pulling back on the rein, not pinching with the knees, how to roll your thighs out and get calves on for more gas. How to weight and lighten seat and stirrup to drive forward or to allow his back to rest and gallop on. Of course, a pulsating, half halting contact is still necessary but it seems to me that a lot of people aren't really teaching how to use the upper body, leg and seat. Or is it just me?


I am an ex-eventer who competed through Prelim way back when. Now as a dressage queen who still puts on my jumping saddle and does conditioning work, this all sounds like dressage principles in the galloping position. In dressage, part of my half-halt includes opening my shoulders by using the sensation of my shoulder blades touching each other as they come up and back plus closing my thighs. Yes, I know my seat bones are in the saddle in dressage, but when I evented I used to sit deeper in the saddle several strides before the fence to set the horse up for the jump. Not much difference IMO.

In dressage, I open up my hip angle and put on more calf for my canter lenthenings and mediums. Yes, once again, I know that the larger "circle" of my hip movement also contribute to the lengthening, but the opening up of my thigh and more calf significantly contribute to the lengthening of the horse's frame. The horse would be completely restricted if I didn't open up my hip angle. To bring the horse back from the lengthening, I raise my shoulders up and back, close my thigh and sit deeper in the saddle.

So, the moral of my story is you may need to revisit your dressage training to ensure you can effectively use an independent seat on the flat as I think it has a direct correlation to how you ride your horse over fences and on cross country.

My favorite eventing trainer of all time, Sally Buffington, calls this packaging the horse. I call it dressage over fences. For what it's worth, Sally did wonders for my galloping position when I dabbled in eventing in 2007-08 after a 15-year break from the sport. Unfortunately for me she moved from TX to GA last year, and I gave up eventing rather than do it alone without her.

Since I just used the word "trainer," I have to agree that there is a difference between an instructor and trainer. Sally [as well as my current dressage trainer(s)] work with me with the expectation that I know how to move my position around to effectively use the aids. Dressage Today has a great article this month on rider position (albeit for dressage not galloping position). Part of it is about repetition to "teach" muscle memory. Check it out.

[beeblebrox]

First I am sorry you did not have a trainer (comment for OP) that did not teach you to use core and thighs for halting or slowing. I have three 8-10 year old who are not allowed to use the reins to stop but must use the thighs and belly. Of course they must do this at the walk halt, trot walk and so on to progress in my program and some move on quickly to cookie cutter programs that let them endlessly trot and canter and jump, really work is hard but we do fun stuff too but when you work on this stuff you do no have kids growing up pulling back on reins.

DO NOT PULL can mean a lot of things and is not always related to trying to stop or compress a horse.

You can have riders who PULL on the inside rein in vain trying to get a horse to turn and you do not YELL do not pull on the inside rein in my opinion. Ask the student to walk a straight line and keep outside rein strait and to open inside rein as far as they like while keeping outside straight, the horse will turn with the outside leg is applied if the outside rein is straight. This helps them figure out all the pulling on inside rein is futile unless horse is between reins and how much more leg rather than reins needs to be used to keep the train (horse) from bulging off the track.

DO NOT PULL on you're way to a jump is not always a matter of not half halting or understanding half halt but fear, so saying do not pull is similar to telling it a brain to second guess itself. It must instead be broke down and asked. Do you realize you're pulling? Do you know what the effects on you're horses ability, step, bascule, etc when you pull and invert you're horse? We will head back to a size fence where a person feels that no matter what they will be ok and work on the fear and pulling associated with it.

Do not pull (or snap your body up after a fence)
For those that do this it is also another fear thing (or was at some point and became a habit) A good percentage are duckers who have to crack or bolt up right on landing as they hurled themselves in front of motion and now fight to get back and often end up shooting the horses forward and guess what PULLING and telling a trainer I have to snap up pull because see the horse is running away... PEOPLE teach this behavior a lot more than horses coming with it.

um I could go on forever but DON'T PULL covers so many riding issues ;-)

[EqTrainer]

To the OP: get beeblebrox to give you some lessons ;):D

[Invested1]

Yes, many trainers suck. BUT! many trainers are very good.

I just picked up two great girls to teach. They were with an 'eventing coach' before they came to me. I met them at a CT actually.
The one showing didn't know that you are supposed to use your outside rein.

She came out of the SJ arena and said, Dang Kristen, I used my outside rein in the turns like you said it worked. What a neat TRICK! I almost had a heart attack when she said that.
Can you believe there are coaches out there calling themselves coaches and wracking in the doe and they don't even know about the use of the outside rein? SCARY!

I've been riding off and on since I was five or six, solidly for the past 5-6 years (I'm 33 now), and I kid you not that it was only a couple years ago that a trainer said to me "more outside rein." I looked at her and asked, "why do I care about the outside rein, I'm turning inside...." She looked at me like I had 4 heads. :D

What? How was I supposed to know when (multiple) trainers had never taught me.....

[retreadeventer]

Trainers...ah....I have a personal rule which I never break.
"Never take lessons from someone who knows LESS than you do."
It is a very economical rule as well. You will waste a lot less money if you follow it.

[purplnurpl]

So sad.

It's so easy to get screwed in the equine business.
: (

[Fancy That]

Great thread.

Just wanted to add that if you are riding a green horse, or are starting one...ore even an old horse that doesn't know......you have to TEACH the horse, at some point, the correct response to what your body is doing.

IOW, to a horse that doesn't know "opening your shoulders and squeezing with thighs" may mean nothing at first.

And "inside leg to outside hand" too. The horse has to know to move off the inside leg. That has to be taught or refreshed if horse gets dull to the aids, too.

And speaking of "refreshing"....sometimes you simply have to work on FORWARD to make sure the horse really is in front of your leg.

Jane Savoi has a wonderful video series about half halt. And this is the first thing she does. To the point where she will let go of the reins and test the horses' FORWARD.

I too, have to work on this with my mare! It's a never ending work in progress :)

[ThirdCharm]

True, in order for the message to get across you have to A) have a student who is listening/motivated/has the appropriate prior learning, and they have to hook up with B) trainer who is aware of the information which needs to be imparted and C) knows various ways of imparting said information, depending on how the student learns--some do better with verbal explanation, some are visual, some kinesthetic, and D) ideally there is a horse involved who will actually respond correctly when given the aid correctly by said student, as several have mentioned the horse needs to be educated as well, and it is harder to teach the horse AND the student at the same time....

Amazing that anyone learns anything, isn't it? :-)

Jennifer

[hamsterpoop]

Yes,all very good stuff. I have to say learning IS fun! I find that there are things I should know, that everyone else knows, but I don't. For example, Christmas and New Years Day are always on the same day. I had no clue until this year and I am no spring chicken. That's why I do try and take clinics, lessons and "camps" when time and budget allow. I owe that much to my horse.

[Sudi's Girl]

This is a biggy. And is one reason why I always make a point to get on my student's horse.
You figure out really fast how weak some riders are. I hate it when I have a coach that I see more often then a regular clinician and he/she has not sat on my horse.

It's not always physical strength. A lot of it is timing of aids. A skill that takes a long time to get for some riders.
Which comes down to the above post about the student's job to experiment on their own.

This was/can still be an issue for me!! A while back, it took a trainer hopping on my horse for them to realize that I was quite a bit weaker than they assumed since my horse did understand what they were asking. I just didn't have the seat/leg to ask it correctly.

Since then, I've been assigned other work out routines to help (since I have a desk job etc.), and I can tell a HUGE difference. Sometimes riders/students just don't have any idea how weak they really are either - It was very enlightening to me - and a relief to figure out how to work on it to get the results I was looking for. Now I'm working on the "timing" issue. :D

I wish ALL trainers hopped on my horse to understand what I'm working with. Their teaching, to me, always improves significantly afterwards since they have a better understand of what is a horse issue vs a rider issue. And 9 times out of ten, it's a rider issue!! :)

[Horsegal984]

Sudi's-
PLEASE share you're exercises with me!!! I've just increased my riding to 2x a week, but my legs are still SO weak by the end of my hour lesson. I really want to do anything else I can out of the saddle to help strenghten the correct muscle groups, so I can get more out of my lessons! I feel like now I'm still so weak that I spend as much time resting to catch up as working! Anything I can do in the gym, or at home, or in the office... anything helps!!

[Sudi's Girl]

Sudi's-
PLEASE share you're exercises with me!!! I've just increased my riding to 2x a week, but my legs are still SO weak by the end of my hour lesson. I really want to do anything else I can out of the saddle to help strenghten the correct muscle groups, so I can get more out of my lessons! I feel like now I'm still so weak that I spend as much time resting to catch up as working! Anything I can do in the gym, or at home, or in the office... anything helps!!

Well the BEST thing that's been recommended to me so far is squats! I was assigned 50/day, but I don't tend to do them every day. My muscles need time to recuperate and heal after I work them out. I do three sets: of 30 then 20 then 10 at least 3 days a week. On the off days, I do pilates to work on my core muscles. I have a great dvd that I use (although I've also had some classes so that I am not injuring myself to when I do them at home!! *grin*)

Also - at work, make sure you also have correct posture all day! If you can, sitting on one of those big exercise balls is great to work your abs some all day.

When my horse was younger and I wasn't riding him every day, I used to take him running with me too (him trotting of course). He always seemed to really enjoy those evenings too funny enough. He picked up on good manners about it very quickly too.

Anyway - good luck! IF anyone else has any other great exercises, I'm all ears! (or eyes in this case :D)

Jessica