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mayhew
Jan. 5, 2009, 11:32 AM
Does anyone feed a raw food diet to their farm dogs? The price of kibble has gone up so much lately that we're starting to consider feeding a raw diet to our golden retriever mix. It is something that has always been in the back of our minds. Price and convenience were our reasons for sticking with kibble... now that the price of kibble has gone up, it seems less of a compelling reason. Anyone have any opinions on the different kinds of raw diets, or raw diets in general? If you feed it, where do you get the meat? Grocery store, butcher, pre-made and frozen? What kinds of meat do you feed? Do you feed them twice a day still? Did your dogs have upset stomachs during the transition? How much per month does it cost you? Does your vet approve? When we brought up the idea with our last vet, he discouraged it.

jherold
Jan. 5, 2009, 11:41 AM
I fed it for a while. Google "barf diet" It was designed by an Australian Vet and was great. I told my vet I was feeding it after he commented on how great my dogs looked and how clean and white their teeth were. He couldn't argue with the results! I stopped feeding it because it's not just raw meat that you feed. You have to try to replicate the intestinal products of game animals with pulverized plant stuff and other ingredients. It got to be too time consuming.

However, I do buy turkey necks or wings or chicken leg/thighs and feed one of those about once a week or so. I think it helps to keep the teeth in good shape. You must make sure the bones are raw. Cooked bones splinter and cause problems.

I've never had any of my dogs have digestive trouble the diet even with just the occasional raw bone treat.

I don't think it would be any cheaper than kibble, since the price of all food as gone up unless you have access to a meat processing plant that gives you a discount on the raw bones.

Bluey
Jan. 5, 2009, 11:43 AM
I can see why your vet discouraged it, they get to treat the dogs that get sick on it.

The trouble is not that raw food is bad, but that raw food goes thru several steps and any one of those can contaminate it, does contaminate it.
When we cook it, we take care of that. Not so if we use it raw.

It only takes one bad egg to contaminate a whole batch.
Your dog may not get sick from many of those bad batches, as digestive systems are made to handle some contaminants fine, until that one time it does make your dogs sick.

Since the raw diet craze for dogs started many years ago, several members of our dog club here and there decide to try it, become very fanatic about it, how good it is and make a pest of themselves trying to convince others about how well their dogs look now and that they don't itch/xyz any more.
Eventually, they give up and go back to regular dog food and guess what, their dogs still do fine.:)

I think that today some companies are preparing and freezing and selling the raw dog food, some even in local grocery stores.
Prepared like that, or if you want to do so in your kitchen, after you learn how to balance nutrients, all that is fine, you won't kill your dogs with it.

As for "BETTER", no, don't fall for the fads.;)

tle
Jan. 5, 2009, 11:51 AM
of course most vets are going to disapprove of raw diets... it's not in their training (what little nutrition training they have) nor is it improving their bottom line as many vets sell premium dog food on the side. Sorry to be so cynical but after my last vet visit where she started out with a dozen possible reasons for my dogs loose bowels and then HARPED that it HAD to be the raw diet only after I told her that's what I fed... a little gunshy.

Yes, I feed raw. started with my 10 year old newf with a kidney issue that disappeared after the switch... and who lived anotehr 2 years. The pup (now 17 months) has been on raw since I got him at 3 months. The cattle dog (aka dingo) has been raw fed for several years as well. Even transitioned my cat to raw.

You can feed once or twice/day. I do twice since the newf gets so much and I don't want to feed him all that at once, although I'm sure that's more me than him. 2-3% of their weight is what you want to feed total with 60% OR MORE being MEAT. some folks put 10% veggies, some feel this is unnecessary.

You can get meat about anywhere. If you have a local processor or butcher, ask for scraps. Look in the day old compartment at the grocery store. There are plenty of places online to order (I suggest looking into Carnivore Suppliers group on Yahoo). Highly recommend a separate freezer if you have space as a lot of things you can get a LOT cheaper in bulk.

As for what to feed, start easy. Don't push too much variety on the dog too soon. Add new meats SLOWLY, but you can feed pretty much any meat you can think of -- chicken, turkey, venison, beef, pork, rabbit, fish -- those are probably the most common. The only thing to avoid is heavy weight bearing bones like deer and cow femurs. They're too dense and won't be good for anything more than recreational chewing and you may even endanger a chipped tooth.

If you find you get an upset stomach... I suggest what I call Puppy mash -- a mix of ground meat (beef is fine), yogurt and pumpking (not pie filling but pumpkin). I started Reilly with puppy mash because of the switch and that he was really young and I didn't want to rush him. I slowly started adding meats, starting with Chicken.

Price? Well, if you're really good at scrounging, watching sales, buying in bulk, etc., you can get meats for well under $1/pound. Sky is the limit if you don't care and buy whatever or buy for strictly convenience (ordering premade meals, etc.).

ETA: "You have to try to replicate the intestinal products of game animals with pulverized plant stuff and other ingredients. " -- no you don't. Some folks subscribe to the idea that a dog really is a carnivore and doesn't need plants. Others simply feed pureed veggies. It's not THAT hard to do.

"The trouble is not that raw food is bad, but that raw food goes thru several steps and any one of those can contaminate it, does contaminate it.
When we cook it, we take care of that. Not so if we use it raw." -- but as you mentioned our digestive systems aren't the same as a dogs. Dogs can handle a LOT more than a human. There is no need to cook a dog's food other than to make ourselves feel better.

That said... to each their own. I won't hound you to convert to raw if you don't stop me from feeding what I feel is best. :-)

CanterQueen
Jan. 5, 2009, 11:58 AM
I've never had any of my dogs have digestive trouble the diet even with just the occasional raw bone treat.

I bought our dogs each one of those big raw bones from the freezer at the feed store. Has the "knuckles" on the ends. Well, Westie got a knuckle stuck in his intestines and it was touch and go for a couple of days (he kept throwing up, got dehydrated, spent time at the vet's) until it finally passed. BE CAREFUL!!

We stick to Milk Bones. :yes:

mayhew
Jan. 5, 2009, 12:08 PM
I don't think it would be any cheaper than kibble, since the price of all food as gone up unless you have access to a meat processing plant that gives you a discount on the raw bones.


Yeah, I didn't think it would actually be cheaper, just that, with the price difference between raw and kibble decreasing, (we just paid $75 for a bag of food that, two months ago, cost us $50) it is now more worth it to switch to raw. I know the price of chicken hasn't gone up 50% in two months! We do have a chicken slaughter place nearby... but asking for a discount may be difficult, as the owners only speak Polish.

What sort of green things did you use to imitate the stomach contents?

LMH
Jan. 5, 2009, 12:11 PM
I have fed mine raw diet for a long while now. I do raw patties in the morning (I use Primal) and kibble in the evening-but I am changing evenings to dehydrated raw

They also get one beef marrow bone a day (cheaper than rawhide).


My 8yo aussie has sparkling white teeth, never had his teeth cleaned. THey coats improved on the diet and skin allergies are gone.

I DID feed nature's variety patties but learned they are most eggs so changed to primal.

It is not cheap this way but I just can't prepare it-my stomach would flip.

mayhew
Jan. 5, 2009, 12:15 PM
I can see why your vet discouraged it, they get to treat the dogs that get sick on it.

The trouble is not that raw food is bad, but that raw food goes thru several steps and any one of those can contaminate it, does contaminate it.
When we cook it, we take care of that. Not so if we use it raw.





Yeah, I worry about contamination as well. The argument that our vet had was not that it was unsafe for the dogs, though, but that the pet food companies spent millions of dollars in research on what is a good diet for dogs, and that the average owner isn't capable of balancing their dog's diet correctly. I'm not sure I buy that now, though I did at the time. I have since brought my horses home and taken on every aspect of their care, something I never thought I would be capable of. I balance my horses' diets just fine, and with some research, I feel that I could balance my dog's diet as well.

mayhew
Jan. 5, 2009, 12:19 PM
I have fed mine raw diet for a long while now. I do raw patties in the morning (I use Primal) and kibble in the evening-but I am changing evenings to dehydrated raw

They also get one beef marrow bone a day (cheaper than rawhide).


My 8yo aussie has sparkling white teeth, never had his teeth cleaned. THey coats improved on the diet and skin allergies are gone.

I DID feed nature's variety patties but learned they are most eggs so changed to primal.

It is not cheap this way but I just can't prepare it-my stomach would flip.

Can you buy that at a regular pet store? Can you get it mail-order? We live pretty far out, and I've never seen anything but kibble at the pet store in town. I'm pretty good at handling meat in all stages, so chopping up a whole dead thing for my dog wouldn't be too much of a challenge. :)

mayhew
Jan. 5, 2009, 12:27 PM
Even transitioned my cat to raw.



Ha! I wondered whether cats could eat it too. We have a cat that DH rescued from underneath the fire escape at his office. She's never really gotten off a raw diet! Leave something to thaw on the counter, even a big roast, and it isn't the dog that gets it, it is the little eight pound cat. Who, I assume, weighs twelve pounds after eating several whole pork chops. Our huge semi-feral barn cat, on the other hand, won't touch anything but kibble.

Thanks for the info!

HydroPHILE
Jan. 5, 2009, 12:33 PM
Here are some great links for info on RAW and BARF diets:

Dr. Ian Billinghurst's BARFworld website (http://www.barfworld.com/)

BARF newcomers FAQs (http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm)

Some books:

"Dr. Pitcairn's Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs and Cats" by Richard H. Pitcairn D.V. M

"Foods Pets Die For" by Ann Martin

"The Encyclopedia of Natural Pet Care" by CJ Puotinen

"Switching to Raw" by Susan Johnson

"Raw Meaty Bones" by Dr. Tom Lonsdale

mayhew
Jan. 5, 2009, 12:41 PM
Thanks!

tle
Jan. 5, 2009, 12:50 PM
Yeah, I worry about contamination as well. The argument that our vet had was not that it was unsafe for the dogs, though, but that the pet food companies spent millions of dollars in research on what is a good diet for dogs, and that the average owner isn't capable of balancing their dog's diet correctly.

HAHAHAHA!!! Dog food companies spend millions of dollars in research determining what will improve their bottom line the most without killing the pets of their consumers. That can but doesn't necessarily mean the same as determing what is a "good diet" for dogs. for example, dogs don't need grains in any form. While you will find some dissention in the raw community on whether they need veggies or not, no one will argue that a dog's system doesn't "do" grains. so where exactly did those millions of dollars in research determine that putting grains in dog food was a good idea??

re: cats. when I first transitioned my old newf to raw, the cat wouldn't touch it. It has only been since I got the pup that she's been on raw.

Oh, and I forgot... you MUST remember to include organs in the dogs diet.... Liver and Kidneys are most popular (fyi, heart is considered a muscle meat when it comes to diet not an organ). About 5% if I remember correctly of the overall diet.... which you can easily figure on a MONTHLY basis... not daily like many dog food companies would have you believe.

Fancy That
Jan. 5, 2009, 01:34 PM
Just as others have said, you may not save money (though $75 for a bag of kibble is $$$$!!???) unless you are really good about finding the deals.

Another good place to go are the Asian and Mexican grocery stores. They have lots of different types of meats and bone-in-meats for alot cheaper. And they'll chop things up more for you.

The "feeding whole prey model" isn't neccesarily about adding "stomach contents"...but the idea that you should feed a balance of muscle, organ, bone and yes....raw green tripe.

Check out www.greentripe.com for the "green" stuff.

I used to get Nature's Variety patties, and now get the Primal nuggets or patties (pre-made frozen) I am SO LUCKY to have my local pet food store carry these and other brands. Plus they have the raw marrow bones which are fantastic.

Anyways - people are really divided on this topic. It works very well for my Ratties. Never had a problem. I feel it's healthier than kibble. (though, when I did feed kibble - it was the super high end premium stuff!)

Good luck!

cheryl ann
Jan. 5, 2009, 02:21 PM
I don't have a barn dog, but I do have ten barn cats. At first I was quite happy with two, but I digress...

They eat (in descending order) raw/frozen, freeze-dried, canned and kibbled food, plus some occasional table scrap meat (leftover poultry, beef or fish) and whatever they may catch. I also give them plain yogurt (cats can have yogurt) once or twice a week. The purchased foods are all premium foods, none from the grocery or chain pet/farm stores (except the yougurt). My catfood bill has increased *substantially*, but since I feed my horses and myself well, my kitties deserve to eat well, too. Thing is, now they cost more than the horses. But that's ok.

I spent a lot of time and effort on research; finding out who makes what brand, what facility the particular product is manufactured in, what other brands may be made in that same facility, parent companies, subsidiaries, sourcing of ingrediants, etc. I called the companies, vets, nutritionists, and spoke with store owners and their salespeople, etc. I made a real effort to study and learn everything I could about cat physiology. Really researched a lot, and I still keep in touch with several contacts. I also have great cat vets, and a great food supplier, and they have all been extremely resourceful and supportive.

I never had any transition problems per say, but the kitties never were on straight kibble, even back in the day there was always some form of canned food added, albeit a poorer quality at the time. And they always got some form of leftover a couple times a week. Plus, they would still hunt. But I was still careful anyway, like any switch to a more nutrient-dense diet.

The only big change I made was to go to once per day feeding, more along a carnivore-type as opposed to our horses' herbivore-type feeding with more meals. Although in cold weather, I do give them more. Right now, they get meat and/or canned first thing in the morning, and as I'm doing chores, they eat that down. Then I drop kibble, and they eat that down and when they're done, I put most of the leftovers away, unless someone didn't show up for breakfast (a rarity). I don't want any food out at night.

I buy grain-free and use the brands Wysong, Nature's Variety, Taste of the Wild, Pet Guard, Natural Planet and Merrick and some of them are organic. The yogurt is also organic, Stoneyfield Farm brand (the only one I can find in the big container). Occasionally I will buy meat at the grocery and cut it up. I have tossed a witnessed fresh-killed rabbit or two in the back of my truck to take to the barn.

dalpal
Jan. 5, 2009, 04:56 PM
What brand are you feeding and paying 75.00 per bag?


With that said, I'm with TLE...I feed raw and will never go back. I buy the Nature's Variety Chubs (chicken, lamb, beef....and you can find them in the more upscale pet stores)...they are not super cheap....between 2-3.00 per pound. But they are complete and I don't worry about balancing things out.

I also buy the Smart Chicken Leg Quarters at the grocery store and they occassionally get those too.

If cost is the factor..I'd be curious to know what you are feeding, sometimes you can get your food online MUCH cheaper.

dalpal
Jan. 5, 2009, 05:01 PM
I can see why your vet discouraged it, they get to treat the dogs that get sick on it.

The trouble is not that raw food is bad, but that raw food goes thru several steps and any one of those can contaminate it, does contaminate it.
When we cook it, we take care of that. Not so if we use it raw.

It only takes one bad egg to contaminate a whole batch.
Your dog may not get sick from many of those bad batches, as digestive systems are made to handle some contaminants fine, until that one time it does make your dogs sick.

Since the raw diet craze for dogs started many years ago, several members of our dog club here and there decide to try it, become very fanatic about it, how good it is and make a pest of themselves trying to convince others about how well their dogs look now and that they don't itch/xyz any more.
Eventually, they give up and go back to regular dog food and guess what, their dogs still do fine.:)

I think that today some companies are preparing and freezing and selling the raw dog food, some even in local grocery stores.
Prepared like that, or if you want to do so in your kitchen, after you learn how to balance nutrients, all that is fine, you won't kill your dogs with it.

As for "BETTER", no, don't fall for the fads.;)

Hmmmm, not like any kibble recalls killed dogs, right? We all learned in 2007 that there is no guarantee in kibble either.

I guess I'm a true fanatic because a. I subscribe to the Whole Dog Journal and B. I feed raw. :lol: Actually, I've just taken the time to read and educate myself..and my dogs are healthier for it. ;)

tkhawk
Jan. 5, 2009, 05:08 PM
I don't know about raw dog food but I do know someone who only eats raw food for heself-Yuck!-but supposed to be healthy-or so I hear..

Bluey
Jan. 5, 2009, 05:15 PM
Hmmmm, not like any kibble recalls killed dogs, right? We all learned in 2007 that there is no guarantee in kibble either.

I guess I'm a true fanatic because a. I subscribe to the Whole Dog Journal and B. I feed raw. :lol: Actually, I've just taken the time to read and educate myself..and my dogs are healthier for it. ;)

That is why in our dog club, we don't discuss dog foods.;)
Everyone thinks their dog is healthier because they do XYZ and feed ZYX.:yes:

The truth is that all dogs look and work great, no matter how the very sensible, well educated people feed and manage them.
No one can tell by watching the dogs who is fed what.
Dogs are very resilient and will do well under most any good management.:cool:

dalpal
Jan. 5, 2009, 05:22 PM
That is why in our dog club, we don't discuss dog foods.;)
Everyone thinks their dog is healthier because they do XYZ and feed ZYX.:yes:

The truth is that all dogs look and work great, no matter how the very sensible, well educated people feed and manage them.
No one can tell by watching the dogs who is fed what.
Dogs are very resilient and will do well under most any good management.:cool:

Oh I agree, but you cannot make the argument that kibble is safer after the 2007 fiasco. I was skeptical about raw at first....but after the dogs had been on it for a month...even my farrier made a comment. "Your dalmatian looks more fit than I've ever seen him." The only thing that had changed was his diet...exercise remained the same. I love it...switched to it after a LONG time dalmatian breeder mentored me....love the results....more energy, glossier coat, and very lean muscle.

And , I agree.....it's not for every dog/every owner.

mayhew
Jan. 5, 2009, 05:38 PM
What brand are you feeding and paying 75.00 per bag?


Nutro, lamb and rice large breed formula. Sorry for the edit--hubby responded and only knew that the bag was green.

dalpal
Jan. 5, 2009, 05:41 PM
And it was 75.00????????????????????????????????????????

check this site out....AND if you look online, you can usually find a 20 percent off coupon/pays for most of your shipping....these guys aren't outageous on shipping costs, however, it does take a couple of weeks to get your order.

http://www.petfooddirect.com/store/PetProducts.asp?mscssid=BDPPWCEC7G5P9KNSR4THMUJH7E LM242A

dalpal
Jan. 5, 2009, 05:44 PM
Did you realize that you can get a 35lb bag of Canidae lamb rice on that site for 38.99???? I think it's a much better food too.

mayhew
Jan. 5, 2009, 07:30 PM
These are Canadian prices, keep in mind. Even if there isn't a real difference in the US/Canadian dollar, we still pay more for everything than you do. It's just an expensive country in which to live, especially when you consider the 15% sales tax in Ontario. However, a whole chicken is still less than $10 in the grocery store, and if we raise it ourselves, is about $6, once you take the processor's fee into consideration. If we kill them ourselves, we can produce chickens at about $3 a bird.

mayhew
Jan. 5, 2009, 07:38 PM
And it was 75.00????????????????????????????????????????

check this site out....AND if you look online, you can usually find a 20 percent off coupon/pays for most of your shipping....these guys aren't outageous on shipping costs, however, it does take a couple of weeks to get your order.

http://www.petfooddirect.com/store/PetProducts.asp?mscssid=BDPPWCEC7G5P9KNSR4THMUJH7E LM242A


If we order anything from the US, we have to pay heavy fines and duties and taxes. UPS wants a handling fee that would bankrupt any company. You end up paying more for shipping, handling, and taxes than the item is actually worth. And the thing about Canada is that there really isn't enough population to make these kinds of discount companies economically viable. We end up paying the highest price for everything.

gloriginger
Jan. 5, 2009, 07:50 PM
I feed Countrypet.com - have fed it since my dog was a pup- she wouldn't eat kibble so I started her on this. It's a bit on the pricey side, I supplement with cottage cheese and a 1/4-1/2 cup of honest kitchen.

LookinSouth
Jan. 5, 2009, 08:36 PM
My golden retriever had severe allergies to absolutely ANY dog food we tried when we got her as a 8 week old puppy. We tried Canidae, Nutro, Wellness, IVD prescription, Pedigree, Canned Chicken with cooked white rice and the list could go on. The vets couldn't figure out what the problem was nor pinpoint the allergy.

Our dog wasn't keeping weight and the affects were stunting her growth considerably:(

I finally came up with the notion to try ground BEEF and steamed rice. We talked to our vet and they said to supplement with 1/2 of a multi vitamin as well. Initially we cooked the beef and rice, immediately we noticed that our dog was not having the digestive issues/allergy reactions. We then switched to raw ground beef, cooked eggs, cannellini beans (cheap protein source) and chopped broccoli. The raw diets I researched said eggs need to be cooked.

She has been on the diet for 2 years now and is thriving. The vets were amazed and even my equine vet commented on the quality of her coat and her healthy weight and was considering putting her lab on the same diet.

We just recently found a canned dog food by Harmony Farms that is Beef and potato. The ingredients are just beef, potato and broth. We started replacing the beef with the canned food and she has been doing great. We are now slowly introducing the dry food by Harmony farms (which unfortunately includes chicken products, we think she might have been allergic to poultry). So far she has been okay. We think maybe she overcame the food allergy issue as a result of the raw diet.

Serigraph
Jan. 5, 2009, 09:09 PM
I've been feeding raw for over 10 years now. I have a Dalmatian and a Coonhound mix. My Dal had urinary crystals and back when he was 6 months old, I was told to put him on some special Science Diet formula. It was awful, I went to cooking his food, then feeding raw and never looked back. He's 11 now.

I can get 40lbs of chicken necks for about $12 from a butcher.

dalpal
Jan. 5, 2009, 09:53 PM
I've been feeding raw for over 10 years now. I have a Dalmatian and a Coonhound mix. My Dal had urinary crystals and back when he was 6 months old, I was told to put him on some special Science Diet formula. It was awful, I went to cooking his food, then feeding raw and never looked back. He's 11 now.

I can get 40lbs of chicken necks for about $12 from a butcher.

That would be the Lovely UD....The vet that I took my stone former to, was actually the owner of his sire.......she told me to only use UD short term, she wouldn't put any dog on that stuff long term. Knock on wood, he was almost 2 when he blocked and has never had a problem since (he'll be 5 in April)

murphyluv
Jan. 5, 2009, 11:18 PM
I am trying to switch over now- My 2 year old corgi has BAD breath. Teeth are clean, no gum disease, etc, just yucky breath. I was told her breath is too acidic, try raw. I'm going to try it for a while, if it doesn't work, I'll take her for a full work-up. BUT, so far, I've noticed an improvement.
I feed her Canidae Kibble- I like companies with better quality control. I thought I was doing well, but apparently not.
I'm trying to do dehydrated raw in the morning- just figuring out what brand I can use that is most affordable, and kibble at night with a spoonful of EVO canned or Solid Gold Tripe. She is also now getting raw soup bones- she LOVES them and they have made a huge difference.
I like the idea of raw, I think that is what they are supposed to eat, but I don't trust myself to cook for her, nor do I want the hassle when I try to board her or have someone else take care of her. If I don't have to go to raw completely for health reasons, then I'll keep her on some kibble for the convenience.

silver2
Jan. 5, 2009, 11:51 PM
My dog wont eat raw meat. She will eat lunch meat or raw bacon if you cut it into tiny pieces. Maybe. But she would no more eat a raw chicken wing than sprout wings and fly to the moon. She actually gags if you give her one.

I suggest you check this out before buying a gross of raw chicken wings.

Bluey
Jan. 6, 2009, 07:08 AM
As we can see, the best is to go to what the dog needs.

That someone feeds their dog what they seem to be doing well with out of all there is out there is great.:)
Becoming a fanatic about what may work now for the dog we have and expect everyone else now to use that or bashing them for what they choose to use, when their dogs are doing fine with it, is what doesn't make sense, as no two dogs are the same.

For the millions of dogs that have done well over many years on anything from scraps thru commercial kibble of all kinds and quality, there are those few dogs that may have special needs.

As long as what anyone feeds their dog agrees with it, I don't see why some then insist their choice is the best and what all other people should feed their dogs.:confused:

jeano
Jan. 6, 2009, 07:37 AM
Surely someone will turn me in to PETA for this--I have four dogs, two are 6 month old border collie mutts, very active, still growing. Two are geriatric lab mutts, will be ten this year. All four dogs eat a high fat, high protein kibble made primarily from (presumably rendered by-products) pork, and purchased at the local feed store.

This stuff costs under 20 bucks for a 50 pound bag. Old dogs have never had any teeth, skin, or other problems related to diet. Everybody has plenty of energy, good quality fur, no bad breath, no doggies odors, no GI upset, nice sweet calm temperaments and on and on.

Does this mean I'm just lucky in my choice of mutts? Maybe. Does it mean I have found the Most Perfect Dog Food and everyone who doesnt buy it is a moron and Harming Their Dog? Probably not. Does it mean that I am saving myself a lot of trouble and $ by not obsessing over a special expensive food for my pooches? I think so.

dalpal
Jan. 6, 2009, 08:46 AM
My dog wont eat raw meat. She will eat lunch meat or raw bacon if you cut it into tiny pieces. Maybe. But she would no more eat a raw chicken wing than sprout wings and fly to the moon. She actually gags if you give her one.

I suggest you check this out before buying a gross of raw chicken wings.

One of mine won't take it out of your hand (and she is my biggest hunter)...I have to put her leg quarter in a bowl and walk away.

But primarily, I stick to the ground up chubs....none have ever refused that.

Mine will not touch turkey legs or wings, they look at you like you are crazy if you think they are going to touch that nasty thick skin. :lol:

My cats won't touch it either...they won't even touch canned food. So they stay on California Natural dry.

dalpal
Jan. 6, 2009, 08:52 AM
Surely someone will turn me in to PETA for this--I have four dogs, two are 6 month old border collie mutts, very active, still growing. Two are geriatric lab mutts, will be ten this year. All four dogs eat a high fat, high protein kibble made primarily from (presumably rendered by-products) pork, and purchased at the local feed store.

This stuff costs under 20 bucks for a 50 pound bag. Old dogs have never had any teeth, skin, or other problems related to diet. Everybody has plenty of energy, good quality fur, no bad breath, no doggies odors, no GI upset, nice sweet calm temperaments and on and on.

Does this mean I'm just lucky in my choice of mutts? Maybe. Does it mean I have found the Most Perfect Dog Food and everyone who doesnt buy it is a moron and Harming Their Dog? Probably not. Does it mean that I am saving myself a lot of trouble and $ by not obsessing over a special expensive food for my pooches? I think so.

But some of us actually enjoy "obsessing" over our animals nutrition...LOL!

And Bluey, no offense...but you've been bashing those who are feeding the higher premium...calling people fanatics, etc....Not one single person on this thread has bashed anyone else for feeding kibble. The OP asked about raw, people who feed raw were offering suggestions. People have given their opinions about certain foods, but not one single person has bashed someone else for NOT feeding premium food. Not quite sure why you are so defensive over these topics???????????

tle
Jan. 6, 2009, 09:11 AM
Funny story... you should have seen the look on my old newfs face when I gave him his first chicken wing. He took it VEEEERY gently, and put it down in front of him (he was laying down ... of course, he's a newf!) and looked up at me as if to say "really? are you sure this is ok?" I reassured him and he started licking it and then put it in his mouth. You could hear the crunch when he bit down the first time, but that's all I remember as I was subsequently rolling on the floor laughing at him. Think crunch immediately followed by this priceless look on his Newfy face that said "OMG!!! I'm so sorry! I think I broke it!!!!"

Bluey
Jan. 6, 2009, 09:45 AM
But some of us actually enjoy "obsessing" over our animals nutrition...LOL!

And Bluey, no offense...but you've been bashing those who are feeding the higher premium...calling people fanatics, etc....Not one single person on this thread has bashed anyone else for feeding kibble. The OP asked about raw, people who feed raw were offering suggestions. People have given their opinions about certain foods, but not one single person has bashed someone else for NOT feeding premium food. Not quite sure why you are so defensive over these topics???????????

Of course I have not been bashing those that feed any one kind of diet.:eek:
Why would I, when my point all along is that people should feed what fits their dog?:confused:

I am saying that those that believe their way is the best and all others wrong may not be right.:p

As our vet nutritionist specialist tells us, there is no way any of us will ever be able to micromanage what our dogs eat any better than their digestive system has evolved to do.;)
Even at our most careful and studied, the liver alone can do more with what we give it, wherever it comes from, than any of us can possibly manage.:yes:

That doesn't mean we don't need to be informed, aware and do our best with what we have and know.:)

Serigraph
Jan. 6, 2009, 10:47 AM
Dalpal - Yup that was it. Science Diet UD. I can't stand that stuff. My Dal blew up (and he has a sleek build) and had gas that would just about make the house explode!

Bluey
Jan. 6, 2009, 10:50 AM
Dalpal - Yup that was it. Science Diet UD. I can't stand that stuff. My Dal blew up (and he has a sleek build) and had gas that would just about make the house explode!

On the other hand, those special diets have saved and prolonged the lives and quality of those lives of many dogs, as that of our toy poodle, that was on a special diet for liver trouble the last good two years of her life.:cool:

grayarabpony
Jan. 6, 2009, 10:52 AM
I fed my dog Purina and Pedigree dog foods, along with a vitamin supplement, and she lived for 20 years.

Of course, genetics have a lot to do with that. Her mom lived to be 16, her grandfather 18, and her father an undetermined very old age.

I can imagine nutritional needs could vary by breed. I was wondering though -- sorry if this has already been addressed -- how can you be sure that feeding the raw meat is safe? Is it irradiated?

tle
Jan. 6, 2009, 11:11 AM
I can imagine nutritional needs could vary by breed. I was wondering though -- sorry if this has already been addressed -- how can you be sure that feeding the raw meat is safe? Is it irradiated?

Safe for who? If it's not spoiled, it's safe for the dogs. Even slightly aromatic meats are ok for the dogs, as well as freezer burnt. We're not talking about feeding them week old roadkill here. ;-)

grayarabpony
Jan. 6, 2009, 11:40 AM
Safe for who? If it's not spoiled, it's safe for the dogs. Even slightly aromatic meats are ok for the dogs, as well as freezer burnt. We're not talking about feeding them week old roadkill here. ;-)

Uh, safe for the dogs? Ever heard of salmonella?

tle
Jan. 6, 2009, 01:15 PM
a lot of people won't consider raw because of bacteria FOR THEM... that's why I asked.

As to the salmonella.... I repeat if it's not spoiled, it's safe.

grayarabpony
Jan. 6, 2009, 01:44 PM
a lot of people won't consider raw because of bacteria FOR THEM... that's why I asked.

As to the salmonella.... I repeat if it's not spoiled, it's safe.

Salmonella has nothing to do with the meat being spoiled.

jherold
Jan. 6, 2009, 01:50 PM
It is my understanding that dogs, unlike humans, have a digestive tract that is designed to handle bacteria that would make a human sick.

Bluey
Jan. 6, 2009, 01:58 PM
It is my understanding that dogs, unlike humans, have a digestive tract that is designed to handle bacteria that would make a human sick.

I am not a vet, but I don't think that is so.
Ever walked by a van full of show dogs that ate something that didn't agree with them?:eek:

When you are not around many dogs, just like not being around many people, you may not realize that, just as people, most don't get sick, but some do, the same in dogs and people.

dalpal
Jan. 6, 2009, 04:29 PM
I am not a vet, but I don't think that is so.
Ever walked by a van full of show dogs that ate something that didn't agree with them?:eek:

When you are not around many dogs, just like not being around many people, you may not realize that, just as people, most don't get sick, but some do, the same in dogs and people.


Actually, TLE is correct. Sorry, but I have three here who've been eating raw for over a year now, and no one has gotten sick.

I am pretty picky on what I feed though, I use only Smart Chicken or Nature's Variety.

I know many breeders and , gasp, even a few veterinarians who feed raw.

No offense Bluey, but if you have never tried it, what makes you an expert on the subject????? Am I missing something here? You seem to have all the answers, but unless you have actually tried it yourself or done research on it yourself, you really aren't qualified to answer the raw questions.

I'm glad that you are happy with whatever works for your animals, but the OP was asking raw questions.......and if you don't feed raw, I don't see why you feel the need to argue. ;)

dalpal
Jan. 6, 2009, 04:30 PM
I am not a vet, but I don't think that is so.
Ever walked by a van full of show dogs that ate something that didn't agree with them?:eek:

When you are not around many dogs, just like not being around many people, you may not realize that, just as people, most don't get sick, but some do, the same in dogs and people.

Why does that mean that they ate raw? Maybe it was prepared dog food? :lol:

gloriginger
Jan. 6, 2009, 04:37 PM
I'm glad that you are happy with whatever works for your animals, but the OP was asking raw questions.......and if you don't feed raw, I don't see why you feel the need to argue. ;)

Exactly- there is another thread on costco food, seems that the discussion would have been better there.

I am happy that dogs are getting fed- be it dollar store kibble or sushi grade meat. :)

But this discussion was suppose to be about feeding raw food diets!

OP - I posted before but for anyone wanting to make the switch to raw but are afraid of doing it wrong- check out honest kitchen food http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/products/?gclid=CMSrnuXz-pcCFQpgswodODlsDA. Very cool company- they even do taste tests on the food, so you know this is good quality food.

grayarabpony
Jan. 6, 2009, 04:48 PM
If the chicken is free range, then obviously the chance for salmonella goes down....

Yes, I well remember the poison in prepared dog foods a couple of years ago... :no: High end stuff too.

Auventera Two
Jan. 6, 2009, 05:01 PM
The digestive tracts of dogs can handle far more bacteria than humans can. Lets face it - I live on a 40 acre farm with more farms surrounding me. Sometimes my dogs dissapear to the woods and come home dragging a 2 week old rotted carcass. My beagle/walker hound has drug home more dead bodies than I care to even THINK about. It seems like every sick or geriatic "thing" out there dies down by the pond. I've had the dog 9 years, and for 9 years he has been dragging home dead things from the woods with his big ole beagle grin on his face. If MY mouth touched 2 week old rotted carcasses, full of maggots, I would probably be dead in 24 hours. But dogs are not humans. ;)

My dogs go into my chicken nests sometimes and steal raw eggs and eat them. They eat horse poop and chicken poop. They eat pigeon poop, spiders, and toads. And after years of it, nobody has become sick or died yet.

You can only micro-manage farm dogs "so" much. Unless you want to tie them up in the back yard or put them in a kennel, they WILL eat "stuff" around the farm that they probably shouldn't.

So I cannot possibly see how eating clean, raw meat from the butcher shop or grocery store is going to possibly do them any harm.

dalpal
Jan. 6, 2009, 05:03 PM
The digestive tracts of dogs can handle far more bacteria than humans can. Lets face it - I live on a 40 acre farm with more farms surrounding me. Sometimes my dogs dissapear to the woods and come home dragging a 2 week old rotted carcass. My beagle/walker hound has drug home more dead bodies than I care to even THINK about. It seems like every sick or geriatic "thing" out there dies down by the pond. I've had the dog 9 years, and for 9 years he has been dragging home dead things from the woods with his big ole beagle grin on his face. If MY mouth touched 2 week old rotted carcasses, full of maggots, I would probably be dead in 24 hours. But dogs are not humans. ;)


ROFLMAO....so true. My golden has been known to catch her own dinner. :lol: She prefers rabbit.

Iluvgoldies
Jan. 6, 2009, 05:34 PM
Feeding a raw diet is much more expensive then regular dog food.

And please, remember that dogs are NOT true carnivores. They need a balanced diet that contains more than just animal protein. If you want to home cook your pets meals then make sure you are getting advice from a veterinary nutritionist or one with an interest in nutrition.

Calamber
Jan. 6, 2009, 05:58 PM
There is still a tremendously long list of recalled dog foods out there. Just Google dog food recall, it is still ongoing and alot of dogs are allergic to whatever the heck grains and byproducts (or rendered pets) they are putting in them. Pedigree just had a big recall, I will not use Nutro because I have seen so many dogs get sick on it with the dozens of rescues I have rehabbed. If the Dept. Of Agriculture cannot keep human food safe, which it certainly does not at the moment, I am certainly not going to trust that they will keep my animals food safe. I myself just tested in the toxic range for 6 different heavy metals!

I will do what I can to keep my animals safe but do not have the time to prepare the raw diet, I would if I could. I feed Evo kibble, the small bites, with turkey and chicken as the meat source (freeze dried whole meats) and the dogs are doing better. The eight year old hyper sensitive cocker has healed up from the itching spots that he has had for 7 of his 8 years and the other two have good breath, clean teeth and all have loads of energy. Two are 6 years old and the cocker as I said is 8. They are not even approaching geriatric or old age kind of conditions. The black lab was just spayed a year ago and only at that point did she get a grey muzzle. Otherwise people always ask me if she is a two year old, her weight is still good, they get lots of exercise, no treats with dyes or preservatives in them and the Evo now. Until the last year I had primarily fed Diamond until their recall, Pedigree and the Purina One products.

grayarabpony
Jan. 6, 2009, 06:10 PM
The digestive tracts of dogs can handle far more bacteria than humans can. Lets face it - I live on a 40 acre farm with more farms surrounding me. Sometimes my dogs dissapear to the woods and come home dragging a 2 week old rotted carcass. My beagle/walker hound has drug home more dead bodies than I care to even THINK about. It seems like every sick or geriatic "thing" out there dies down by the pond. I've had the dog 9 years, and for 9 years he has been dragging home dead things from the woods with his big ole beagle grin on his face. If MY mouth touched 2 week old rotted carcasses, full of maggots, I would probably be dead in 24 hours. But dogs are not humans. ;)

My dogs go into my chicken nests sometimes and steal raw eggs and eat them. They eat horse poop and chicken poop. They eat pigeon poop, spiders, and toads. And after years of it, nobody has become sick or died yet.

You can only micro-manage farm dogs "so" much. Unless you want to tie them up in the back yard or put them in a kennel, they WILL eat "stuff" around the farm that they probably shouldn't.

So I cannot possibly see how eating clean, raw meat from the butcher shop or grocery store is going to possibly do them any harm.

Oh GAWD. Meat from the butcher is not clean!!

I'd hoped most of you had enough sense to realize that. I guess I was hoping for too much.

Carry on.

Thomas_1
Jan. 6, 2009, 06:22 PM
We feed our raw tripe and whole meal biscuits and they get raw chicken wings once a month

murphyluv
Jan. 6, 2009, 10:02 PM
I also find it hard to believe that people are still buying grocery store brand dog food after all the recalls- but hey, if it's all you can afford, and your dogs have clean teeth, good coats, good weight, good for you. Like someone else said, at least you are feeding the dog and probably taking it to the vet and being a responsible owner.
So I'm not going to criticize others feeding their dogs what they do (although it's tempting- I've housesat for dogs on Pedigree with bad coats and HORRIBLE gas like, holy cow, evacuate the building)- and I agree, this discussion was for those who feed raw- why and how you do it. Not for others to criticize without having research to back up their argument and not having tried it.

Bluey
Jan. 6, 2009, 10:12 PM
Why does that mean that they ate raw? Maybe it was prepared dog food? :lol:

Where did I say those dogs were fed raw?:confused:

I was commenting on the idea that dog's digestive systems is different and more resilient than human's ones.

That is what I wanted to know, why some believe that to be so, where is the proof of that?

And yes, that question brought up here fits with feeding raw or not.

And again, I am not against any one feedint what they want, including raw, but question why those that do want to bash other kinds of feeding, when millions of dogs have and are obviously doing fine on it?;)

lauriep
Jan. 6, 2009, 10:35 PM
Feeding a raw diet is much more expensive then regular dog food.

And please, remember that dogs are NOT true carnivores. They need a balanced diet that contains more than just animal protein. If you want to home cook your pets meals then make sure you are getting advice from a veterinary nutritionist or one with an interest in nutrition.

The idea is "balance over time," not that each and every meal needs to be totally balanced. I've fed raw for over 4 years now and it is simple and Nikon is unbelievably healthy. She gets mostly chicken, ground in the morning with a few ground or (if I am lazy) canned veggies, chicken wings in the evening, beef once a week and mackeral or salmon once a week. Occasionally, eggs, a steamed sweet potato, or other treats, but mostly the regime I described.

Dogs can, have and do digest horrible things that we couldn't, even if we could eat them. The sickest dogs I have ever had were on kibble. Nikon hasn't had a single sick/diarrhea day in her life, not one. Her breeder, who has been feeding raw for about 6 years, has noticed a difference in how long her dogs are living, and how much healthier they are during their later lives. That is enough for me.

And don't for a minute think that all of these glossy bags of dog food aren't ALL about the bottom line for the companies that make them, and the vets who promote them...

dalpal
Jan. 7, 2009, 06:35 AM
Where did I say those dogs were fed raw?:confused:

I was commenting on the idea that dog's digestive systems is different and more resilient than human's ones.

That is what I wanted to know, why some believe that to be so, where is the proof of that?

And yes, that question brought up here fits with feeding raw or not.

And again, I am not against any one feedint what they want, including raw, but question why those that do want to bash other kinds of feeding, when millions of dogs have and are obviously doing fine on it?;)

ROFL...you've been telling us that raw is bad this entire thread..without any experience with it.....No one has bashed anyone on this thread except...YOU. ;)

Hannahsmom
Jan. 7, 2009, 07:35 AM
I will do what I can to keep my animals safe but do not have the time to prepare the raw diet, I would if I could. I feed Evo kibble, the small bites, with turkey and chicken as the meat source (freeze dried whole meats) and the dogs are doing better.

This is what I feed too (Evo) based on a breeder's recommendation as I don't have time for the 'prep' work either. But it is not cheaper than regular kibble so wouldn't suit for the original poster's needs.

Bluey
Jan. 7, 2009, 07:46 AM
ROFL...you've been telling us that raw is bad this entire thread..without any experience with it.....No one has bashed anyone on this thread except...YOU. ;)

Well, I guess it depends on what opinion you hold, who you think is bashing whom?:lol:

I am surprised that you think I am bashing anyone kind of feeding, just because I bring pertinent questions about some.:confused:

On the other hand, those that are for raw seems to think those that don't feed it are killing their dogs.
I call that bashing.:yes:

At the peril of you thinking again that I am bashing raw, I will tell you there were a few club members that fed raw for a few months when that first became a fad and their dogs looked fine, just as they always did, so it was ok for them.
That feeding raw didn't last long, as it is time consuming and the dogs were not better, so why go thru all that?
There were no raw commercial feeds then, you had to buy and prepare all yourself.
One had an aussie that had hot spots and thought the raw diet helped that, until they returned, as they do, then she realized those were not food related, but seasonal and went back to regular kibble.
There is one that, some 15 years later, is still feeding raw and still pushing it on anyone that will listen.:winkgrin:

All I am saying is that those that bring up some dog they knew looking poorly on some kind of dog food should admit that there are millions of dogs that have been looking fine eating all kinds of kibble, even the lesser quality dog foods.
That is what our vet keeps tellling our club when talking about dog foods.
Most good commercial kibbles have much research behind them and for most dogs, they are fine, thank you.

Is every dog food out there the right one for your dog?
That is something every one of us needs to learn.
Does that mean the ones that are not right for our dog are poison and people should be ashamed to feed them as per your opinion of them because they didn't make your dog shine?

I have seen whole herding and hunting kennels being fed what is the lesser quality food, others with top of the line products and all those dogs look great and perform harder than many dogs here and are healthy and sound into old age.

It is rare today that any one dog food is that bad as not keeping dogs in good shape, although most of us do prefer to feed a little better dog food and some even cook for their dogs, be it raw or whatever their fancy desires.

Nutrition is important up to a point, of course.
The point is that most dog kibble today is fine for many dogs, as so many attest to, other than the really local, odd company trying to use some off mill products.

I will bet you that you can line up 1000's of well fed and cared for dogs eating all kinds of dog food, examine them, watch them at their jobs and I dare you guess what any of them eat, because there is no difference with the food dogs have available to them today.

We will just have to agree to disagree who is bashing here.;)

tle
Jan. 7, 2009, 08:38 AM
And again, I am not against any one feedint what they want, including raw, but question why those that do want to bash other kinds of feeding, when millions of dogs have and are obviously doing fine on it?;)

Millions of people do fine on processed grocery store foods themselves... doesn't mean that is the idea diet or that there won't be problems down the road. Why would dog food be any different?



Feeding a raw diet is much more expensive then regular dog food.

Not necessarily. You can feed a very nice raw diet for less than $1/pound of food if you put a little effort into it, watch the sales, have a deep freeze so you can buy in bulk. I get chicken thighs for 85 Cents/pound which is the biggest staple I feed. I can also get turkey necks for roughly the same except that I have to buy a case at a time and I currently have no freezer space. I bought a nice 2 pound package of pork the other day for $1.09/pound and can get pork necks for 75 cents/pound. Haven't figured out what our rabbits are going to cost, but the culls I purchased for $1/pound live weight... so they're not the cheapest, but it all evens out.

dalpal
Jan. 7, 2009, 08:44 AM
Well, I guess it depends on what opinion you hold, who you think is bashing whom?:lol:

I am surprised that you think I am bashing anyone kind of feeding, just because I bring pertinent questions about some.:confused:

On the other hand, those that are for raw seems to think those that don't feed it are killing their dogs.
I call that bashing.:yes:

At the peril of you thinking again that I am bashing raw, I will tell you there were a few club members that fed raw for a few months when that first became a fad and their dogs looked fine, just as they always did, so it was ok for them.
That feeding raw didn't last long, as it is time consuming and the dogs were not better, so why go thru all that?
There were no raw commercial feeds then, you had to buy and prepare all yourself.
One had an aussie that had hot spots and thought the raw diet helped that, until they returned, as they do, then she realized those were not food related, but seasonal and went back to regular kibble.
There is one that, some 15 years later, is still feeding raw and still pushing it on anyone that will listen.:winkgrin:

All I am saying is that those that bring up some dog they knew looking poorly on some kind of dog food should admit that there are millions of dogs that have been looking fine eating all kinds of kibble, even the lesser quality dog foods.
That is what our vet keeps tellling our club when talking about dog foods.
Most good commercial kibbles have much research behind them and for most dogs, they are fine, thank you.

Is every dog food out there the right one for your dog?
That is something every one of us needs to learn.
Does that mean the ones that are not right for our dog are poison and people should be ashamed to feed them as per your opinion of them because they didn't make your dog shine?

I have seen whole herding and hunting kennels being fed what is the lesser quality food, others with top of the line products and all those dogs look great and perform harder than many dogs here and are healthy and sound into old age.

It is rare today that any one dog food is that bad as not keeping dogs in good shape, although most of us do prefer to feed a little better dog food and some even cook for their dogs, be it raw or whatever their fancy desires.

Nutrition is important up to a point, of course.
The point is that most dog kibble today is fine for many dogs, as so many attest to, other than the really local, odd company trying to use some off mill products.

I will bet you that you can line up 1000's of well fed and cared for dogs eating all kinds of dog food, examine them, watch them at their jobs and I dare you guess what any of them eat, because there is no difference with the food dogs have available to them today.

We will just have to agree to disagree who is bashing here.;)

Agreed....I can only think of ONE person who called others Fanatics on this thread...hmmmmm, wasn't me. ;)

I still do not understand why you get so defensive when people discuss premium food.

I think I said earlier, that this diet isn't for every owner/dog. ;)

Once again, Bluey...please answer my question....do you have any experience feeding raw? If not, why do you feel you are an expert on the subject?

Please find one post on this thread where someone bashed another for NOT feeding a raw diet...please, just one. You are the one calling people names and insulting them because they feed something that you apparently don't approve.

Bluey
Jan. 7, 2009, 08:51 AM
Agreed....I can only think of ONE person who called others Fanatics on this thread...hmmmmm, wasn't me. ;)

I still do not understand why you get so defensive when people discuss premium food.

I think I said earlier, that this diet isn't for every owner/dog. ;)

Once again, Bluey...please answer my question....do you have any experience feeding raw? If not, why do you feel you are an expert on the subject?

Please find one post on this thread where someone bashed another for NOT feeding a raw diet...please, just one. You are the one calling people names and insulting them because they feed something that you apparently don't approve.

There are several posts here saying how bad kibble is, to the point that one poster was "ashamed" of what she was feeding.

Guess that we are posting on different wavelenghts, you keep at what you want to say, that is to bash what I say and don't want to understand what I am trying to say.

Seems that I am not being able to make you understand that I object to the idea that raw is better on principle, because I have seen dogs on raw diets over several years now, since this fad started, as I too would have followed it, if it really was better for any of my dogs and can say from experience that dogs on raw diets were NOT, in any measure, better than the rest of the dogs out there.

Again, I am not saying raw is bad.
As all, it has it benefits and drawbacks, but saying that in general raw feeding is BETTER? NO.:winkgrin:

Take this as you want.:)
If I can't make you understand, why keep repeating the same, if I am getting the same answer?:no:

lalahartma1
Jan. 7, 2009, 08:59 AM
I can't believe I've missed this thread, but it's moved along quickly.

I've been feeding dogs and cats a raw, natural diet for 7 years.

I would definately recommend it for just about anyone's dogs.

lalahartma1
Jan. 7, 2009, 09:03 AM
Hmmmm, not like any kibble recalls killed dogs, right? We all learned in 2007 that there is no guarantee in kibble either.

I guess I'm a true fanatic because a. I subscribe to the Whole Dog Journal and B. I feed raw. :lol: Actually, I've just taken the time to read and educate myself..and my dogs are healthier for it. ;)

Well said. What's 'B.'?


I'm so glad to see there are so many crazy raw feeders on the board. :)

dalpal
Jan. 7, 2009, 09:06 AM
Well said. What's 'B.'?


I'm so glad to see there are so many crazy raw feeders on the board. :)

B. just meaning secondly. :lol:

I love feeding raw and won't ever go back. :yes:

dalpal
Jan. 7, 2009, 09:09 AM
There are several posts here saying how bad kibble is, to the point that one poster was "ashamed" of what she was feeding.

Guess that we are posting on different wavelenghts, you keep at what you want to say, that is to bash what I say and don't want to understand what I am trying to say.

Seems that I am not being able to make you understand that I object to the idea that raw is better on principle, because I have seen dogs on raw diets over several years now, since this fad started, as I too would have followed it, if it really was better for any of my dogs and can say from experience that dogs on raw diets were NOT, in any measure, better than the rest of the dogs out there.

Again, I am not saying raw is bad.
As all, it has it benefits and drawbacks, but saying that in general raw feeding is BETTER? NO.:winkgrin:

Take this as you want.:)
If I can't make you understand, why keep repeating the same, if I am getting the same answer?:no:

This is a RAW thread, not a kibble thread.....as for the poster who said she felt ashamed....no one told her to feel that way, now did they. ;) You keep telling us how you feel about raw and it doesn't have any affect on me.....so if someone feels badly, no one can help the way that they feel, but themselves. ;)

Raw has been better for my dogs (WINK/GRIN)

Bluey....third time, do you have any first hand knowledage of feeding raw or are you just here to troll and argue??????? I do keep repeating myself, because you have yet to answer my question, no? Do you have any experience feeding a raw diet?

leakyb
Jan. 7, 2009, 09:12 AM
There are several posts here saying how bad kibble is, to the point that one poster was "ashamed" of what she was feeding.

Guess that we are posting on different wavelenghts, you keep at what you want to say, that is to bash what I say and don't want to understand what I am trying to say.

Seems that I am not being able to make you understand that I object to the idea that raw is better on principle, because I have seen dogs on raw diets over several years now, since this fad started, as I too would have followed it, if it really was better for any of my dogs and can say from experience that dogs on raw diets were NOT, in any measure, better than the rest of the dogs out there.

Again, I am not saying raw is bad.
As all, it has it benefits and drawbacks, but saying that in general raw feeding is BETTER? NO.:winkgrin:

Take this as you want.:)
If I can't make you understand, why keep repeating the same, if I am getting the same answer?:no:

I have to agree with dalpal on this...it seems you have this point where you just can't wrap your head around the fact the raw MAY be better. Or premium kibbles probably are better than Beneful for example.

If you lined my two show Dobermans up next to a poorly fed Doberman, you could run your hands over my dogs' coats and feel the difference in texture, sheen,etc. (And one of my obedience Dobes is a rescue dog from who knows what bloodlines.)

If we were talking about feeding horses, I don't think anyone on here would be justifying feeding moldy, crap hay or feed to their horse and saying they could not tell the difference in their condition vs a well fed show horse. Of course you can!

lalahartma1
Jan. 7, 2009, 09:20 AM
B. just meaning secondly. :lol:

I love feeding raw and won't ever go back. :yes:

Oh, heheheh!

Regarding feeding raw: I keep my purchases under $1 a pound, except for treats, when I'm feeling indulgent ($2.50 lamb), or run out and have to go to the grocery.

The two dogs eat a total of around 2.5 pounds of food a day, more or less.

If you go raw, I would suggest a cleaver and an upright freezer.

I also try to get blood panels yearly to check on things. A good thing for any dog, or human. :)

The german short hair pointers I've lived with have great carrion noses and often find various nasty deer parts when we are hiking, never hurt them. :P

Also, green tripe is one on THE best things you can feed a dog. They love it!

One thing no one has mentioned, or I missed it: what did people feed their dogs before commercial dog food companies offered the product???!?

Bluey
Jan. 7, 2009, 09:23 AM
I have to agree with dalpal on this...it seems you have this point where you just can't wrap your head around the fact the raw MAY be better. Or premium kibbles probably are better than Beneful for example.

If you lined my two show Dobermans up next to a poorly fed Doberman, you could run your hands over my dogs' coats and feel the difference in texture, sheen,etc. (And one of my obedience Dobes is a rescue dog from who knows what bloodlines.)

If we were talking about feeding horses, I don't think anyone on here would be justifying feeding moldy, crap hay or feed to their horse and saying they could not tell the difference in their condition vs a well fed show horse. Of course you can!

Of course you would have to agree with Dalpal, you both fed raw.:lol:

As for feeding experience, I have already stated that feeding raw or not is immaterial, I am not giving advice on how to feed raw.;)
I am just saying that you can't tell what a dog is fed, unless you ask the owners, that raw is not inherently "better".
Who needs to be wrapping their head around what is being stated here?:yes:
After 35+ years of all kinds of dogs, teaching the general public and training and many shows, I can say that with confidence.

Now, how many here have seen many other than a few dogs on a regular basis, thousands of them, to say they can tell if one or another dog they come by is being fed XYZ and that is "better"?

I rest my case.

tle
Jan. 7, 2009, 09:33 AM
One thing no one has mentioned, or I missed it: what did people feed their dogs before commercial dog food companies offered the product???!?

I believe that humans used to eat the organs and feed their dogs the less desirable muscle meats. ;-) Or so I heard somewhere.

Dal... Bluey isn't going to give you teh answer you want, which is to say NO they've never actually fed raw. Bluey's point is that you can't tell what a dog is eating by looking at it, and for the most part I agree. But, as they say, the proof is in the pudding and while one may LOOK at my hubby and see active, physical 6'5", 250 pound fireman... inside his back is a disaster. So, Bluey... looks aren't everything. :wink:

Auventera Two
Jan. 7, 2009, 09:34 AM
If I had the time and knowledge, I would pursue feeding a raw diet to my 3. But I work full time, trim horses part time, and have 3 horses to ride, so I can't take on one more project right now. I feed the highest premium line of Fromm and I feel good about it.

The only issues I've had with "gas" was the Pit Bull/Labrador. When I got him (he was a stray), he was 20 lbs. underweight and when he was neutered the vet told me to put him on the puppy formula. After a week of introducing him to real dog food, versus trash from garbage cans, he ate 7 cups of puppy formula a day plus 1/2 a can and he had horrible gas. (He's a 100 pound dog.) But now he's getting half and half puppy/adult, and is back to 1/3 can and the gas is gone.

For 3 big dogs, I spend almost $200 a month on premium food. So going to raw certainly wouldn't be any more expensive, but its just the time and convenience factor for me. Fromm gets really high ratings, and a friend of mine who has been a dog food nutrition guru for decades, thinks its excellent, so I feel ok feeding it.

But I still think that raw would be the very best you could do for your dog. And sorry to say, but if all I could aford was $8.99 a bag, grocery store special, I wouldn't own dogs. I think there's a certain level of care you are obligated to provide, and if you can't, then you shouldn't own them. But having said that, my BEST friend feeds Ol'Roy to her 4 dogs, and they've fed all their dogs Ol'Roy over the years. They do just fine on it, and my friend likes the results. I don't condemn her in the LEAST. I love her to death :D What she does is her business but it just doesn't mean that's what I would feel comfortable doing for "my" dogs.

I have another horsie friend who buys the cheapest $20 blankets she can find on Ebay for her horses. They rub, they don't fit, they get soaked through, etc. I will pay $150 for a brand name blanket that fits, is waterproof, and does not rub my horse's shoulders. But it doesn't mean I love my friend any less.

Each person has their own line in the sand.

Auventera Two
Jan. 7, 2009, 09:43 AM
Dal... Bluey isn't going to give you teh answer you want, which is to say NO they've never actually fed raw. Bluey's point is that you can't tell what a dog is eating by looking at it, and for the most part I agree. But, as they say, the proof is in the pudding and while one may LOOK at my hubby and see active, physical 6'5", 250 pound fireman... inside his back is a disaster. So, Bluey... looks aren't everything. :wink:


You're right, just looking at a dog and saying - he looks fine - isn't enough. It's about behavior also. And does the dog poop runny diarehea 4 times a day? Or is the dog restless at night while trying to sleep? Does he constantly dream and thrash when he's asleep? Does the dog live to a ripe old age of 15 and then suddenly die, or does he get cancer at age 9? Does he always eat grass and urp on your carpet? Does he get ear infections, or impacted anal glands, etc....

All this stuff is stuff you can't see from the outside, or even if you're around the dog for several years you might not notice it. You would have to follow a dog night and day, see his vet reports, and question his owner in order to be able to tell if the dog really was healthy or not.

I get really dumfounded at horse people that will HAPPILY feed the cheapest grocery store kibble they can find to their dogs for years, but they'd never dream of having the feed man scrape up all the floor sweepings into a bag for $5.99 per 50 pounds. They wouldn't feed moldy hay or feed that's laced with animal byproducts or cross contaminated. But they'll turn around and feed their dog cheap dog food full of grain that the dog's system was never meant to process, and artificial colors and flavors.

It's really mind boggling.

Bluey
Jan. 7, 2009, 09:45 AM
I believe that humans used to eat the organs and feed their dogs the less desirable muscle meats. ;-) Or so I heard somewhere.

Dal... Bluey isn't going to give you teh answer you want, which is to say NO they've never actually fed raw. Bluey's point is that you can't tell what a dog is eating by looking at it, and for the most part I agree. But, as they say, the proof is in the pudding and while one may LOOK at my hubby and see active, physical 6'5", 250 pound fireman... inside his back is a disaster. So, Bluey... looks aren't everything. :wink:

I thought I have made it clear several times that no, I have not fed raw, but that such is not necessary to tell if it is working better than other kinds of food management.
I know you can't look at a dog's insides, but that goes for those feeding raw also that think kibble is beneath them.;)

I grew up where we didn't have dog food of any kind, none at all, no kibble or canned.
Most people didn't even have a dog, it was after two wars, one WWII and there was not much of anything for anyone, human or dog.

We had a dog by default and were ashamed of the food we scrounged for him, that probably could have fed more people.
Our dog, a GSD cross, got boiled rice with lungs and whatever pieces of scrap meat the butcher could not use for people and any of the rare leftovers of our own meals.
That dog lived healthy and happy to 12 1/2 years old, which 50 years ago and in our conditions was very good for any dog.

Just answering those that were wondering about what dogs ate before prepared dog food was available.:)

ASB Stars
Jan. 7, 2009, 10:01 AM
I don't think that this is about a well fed dog looking dramatically better on one premium dog food, or another, or on the BARF program.

I was told about the program when my dog had cancer. At that point, I looked into it, and ended up buying some a brand that they ship to you ready to go, and full of veggies, and your choice of organically grown meat.

After reading about it further, and chatting with a couple of Vets, who had varying opinions on it, I determined that I believe that- long term- our dogs are probably better off on it. In terms of providing a better, and longer, quality life- it is probably the best bet.

Having said that, I am not aware of any real research on this, and everything that I found was anecdotal. So, do the best you can for the animals you care about, choose a feeding program that feels right to you, and hope for the best, is probably my message here! :yes:

Hannahsmom
Jan. 7, 2009, 12:29 PM
I'm curious about the raw dog food feeders...do you also feed your horse 'raw' e.g. hay and whole oats, corn, barley, etc.? Or are you feeding a bagged feed? If a bagged feed, doesn't that run against what you are finding with your dogs?

BTW, I have no room for an upright freezer so I'll have to stick with EVO

tle
Jan. 7, 2009, 12:32 PM
When I had a horse, I had the local mill mix me up a special mix... oats, barley, soybeans, some vitamins and trace minerals. I can't remember what all was in it (no corn) but I loved it. This was after pricing problems with 1 brand and quality issues with another.

FWIW, one does not HAVE to have an upright or chest freezer to feed raw. But in that case it will entail a higher per unit cost as well as more individual trips.

fordtraktor
Jan. 7, 2009, 02:06 PM
Oh, heheheh!


One thing no one has mentioned, or I missed it: what did people feed their dogs before commercial dog food companies offered the product???!?

I don't have a dog in this fight :lol: but I can answer this. I grew up in rural WV, and on my grandparents' farm the dogs' diet has not changed in 100 years -- they eat whatever table scraps the humans don't eat. Dinner plates, etc. get scraped into the "slop bucket" and taken to the dog. Nothing special was ever purchased. If they were still hungry, they could kill their own food (as long as it wasn't livestock/chickens/etc.)

Don't think that would be so popular around here! But the dogs were always healthy and lived to a ripe old age, so I guess it worked fine.

QuzqosMa
Jan. 7, 2009, 02:08 PM
I've fed my dogs on a raw diet since 2001, and yes, it does cost more than kibble, but the health benefits more than pay for the extra cost, with glossy coats, CLEAN teeth (my 12 yr old Dalmatian has NEVER needed her teeth cleaned, the raw diet does it for her), bright eyes, sweet breath, tiny dry poops, and frisky happy dogs. Even my anti-raw vet had to admit they were doing well.

Another bonus, like the Atkins Diet, my dogs lost weight...they'd previously been on a lamb and rice kibble. Their coats got shiny, they dropped weight, got friskier, and even smelled better.

I feed primarily chicken leg quarters (with the backs attached), which I buy in 10# bags for between 39 cents and 79 cents a pound...they have a great ratio of bone to meat, with bits of organ stuck to them. That gets augmented with beef, pork, turkey, venison, whatever happens to be available. Biggest problems I've faced is the occasional constipation if they get too much bones (like pork neck bones), or diarrhea if too much organ meat.

After one of my corgis dug up a hen that'd been buried in the back field for a MONTH, and proceeded to eat it and suffered no ill effects...I'm convinced dogs have much better defenses and stronger stomachs than we humans could ever imagine, lol!

heelgirl4381
Jan. 7, 2009, 02:13 PM
I have a French Bulldog and lots of owners/breeders swear by the raw food diet. It seems to help with allergies and lots of other health issues. I personally do not feed it but I do feed a high quality kibble, Innova. My other dog, an American Bulldog, eats Taste of the Wild. You can't get these foods in Petsmart, PetCo, etc. They might be a tad more expensive but you don't have to feed as much because there is not as much filler.

lalahartma1
Jan. 7, 2009, 05:03 PM
I don't have a dog in this fight :lol: but I can answer this. I grew up in rural WV, and on my grandparents' farm the dogs' diet has not changed in 100 years -- they eat whatever table scraps the humans don't eat. Dinner plates, etc. get scraped into the "slop bucket" and taken to the dog. Nothing special was ever purchased. If they were still hungry, they could kill their own food (as long as it wasn't livestock/chickens/etc.)

Don't think that would be so popular around here! But the dogs were always healthy and lived to a ripe old age, so I guess it worked fine.

Yuppers. :)
Same with the barn cats: a natural raw diet! (Assuming there's enough mice and birds around.)

lalahartma1
Jan. 7, 2009, 05:06 PM
Dehydrated lamb lung is a great fav in the house. :)