Miss Abby Kat -- Sold for $15,000

[imissvixen]

So, this little filly I took a liking to this summer at Del Mar is in a claiming race at Golden Gate. Does that mean she is on a downward spiral?

Here is the info:

Race: 1 Distance: Six Furlongs Surface: All Weather Track Age: 3 Sex: Filly
Race Type: Maiden Claiming Purse: $ 14,000
Jockey: Alex Bisono
Trainer: Jedd B. Josephson
Race conditions: FOR MAIDENS, FILLIES AND MARES THREE YEARS OLD AND UPWARD. Three Year Olds, 120 lbs.; Older, 123 lbs. Claiming Price $20,000, if for $18,000, allowed 1 lb.
Last Raced: 11/09/2008 at GOLDEN GATE FIELDS in Race 4
Finish Position: 6th
Last Reported Workouts:
11/22/2008-GOLDEN GATE FIELDS-Four Furlongs-All Weather Track Fast-50:80 Handily
11/01/2008-SANTA ANITA PARK-Four Furlongs-All Weather Track Fast-46:60 Handily
10/18/2008-OAK TREE AT SANTA ANITA-Five Furlongs-All Weather Track Fast-59:00 Handily

[LaurieB]

Well depending on where and what kind of race she ran in last, it appears she might have taken a step down. Whether or not a spiral will be involved, remains to be seen. :)

Perhaps she'll be successful at this level; she might even work her way back up. A $20,000 maiden claimer is a long way from the bottom. Based on this entry, $20,000 is the price at which her current owners are willing to let her go, so that's her current value in their minds. Are you willing to pay that for her? If so, go get her.

[SleepyFox]

No, I would not say this horse is spiraling down. If you're worried that she's going to "be in danger." I wouldn't worry in the least. They tried her at the maiden allowance level 6 times and she never finished better than 5th. It makes sense to move her to a lower level race at this point. I don't know what the bottom at Golden Gate is but I'm sure $20k is far above the bottom. Remember - the vast majority of horses are claimers. Really. It's just on forums like this that people think claiming races are terrible. A $20k claimer is nothing to sneeze at.

What this filly's connections are doing is trying to find where she's competitive. It looks like they thought she was a little better than she is. So, they're moving her down to where they think she'll have a shot. If she runs badly in this race, they'll probably drop her again.

If she keeps dropping and is still not competitive, then they will likely be thinking about a new career. But, at this point, they're just trying to find the right spot for her. Nothing to worry about! :)

[imissvixen]

That makes me feel better. We'll see how she does today.

[imissvixen]

Miss Abby Kat dueled for the lead three wide to the stretch and then gave way after five furlongs. She finished fourth.

[LaurieB]

Could be she wants a shorter distance, like maybe five furlongs. It will be interesting to see what they try with her next.

[imissvixen]

Miss Abby Kat broke her maiden yesterday. She won a six furlong claiming race for maiden fillies and mares. Purse was $9500 and claiming price was $12,500. Out of curiosity, how would I find out if she was claimed?

http://www.equibase.com/static/chart/pdf/GG121908USA5.pdf

[SleepyFox]

Congratulations to Miss Abby Kat! :) By 4 1/2 no less - nice going!

If she was claimed it would be listed below the "claiming prices" section on the chart. If any horse in the race was claimed it would say "Claimed horses" and then list the horse and the new owner and the trainer who claimed the horse.

But, don't worry - this probably is not a horse that's a high claim risk. Even though she won, she's not going to be overly attractive to take next time unless they drop her way down and someone knows she's sound. So, I'd suggest watching the charts, but don't be too worried. :)

[imissvixen]

I am the person obsessed with a filly named Miss Abby Kat. I just googled her because I thought she was supposed to run this weekend. I discovered she is going to be auctioned at the end of the month at a place called Barretts.

http://www.barretts.com/Catalog/catjan09/pdf/85.pdf

It looks like her connections are getting rid of all their horses. Can anyone tell me about Barretts? I was looking at the results from their last sale and the prices seemed pretty low. Is that typical? How do these auctions work?

[VirginiaBred]

Good luck. I hope you get her.

[Jessi P]

It's a breeding stock/ horses of racing age sale. Each major auction company (Keeneland, Fasig Tipton, OBS and Barretts) has one of these sales in Dec or January each year.

Check out Barretts.com for more info - her catalog page should be up as well.

http://www.barretts.com/

Here is her page:

http://www.barretts.com/catalog/catjan09/pdf/85.pdf

With her strong 2nd dam I wouldn't worry too terribly much about only attracting the killer buyer - she has a very useful pedigree.

[Pronzini]

Barretts is the auction house in California and horses can go cheap or for very serious money (horses have sold for well over a million there--think Unbridled's Song for one.)

Barretts does have online bidding but I'm never bought a horse there using it. Otherwise it's just like any other auction--you get approved for a certain amount by the sales office and you bid if you are interested.

Can I ask why you are so obsessed with her? I don't have her PPs in front of me but unless she showed something that her career description doesn't allude to, I doubt she'll bring 5 figures in this market.

[Jessi P]

I wanted to add:

You can set up a line of credit with Barretts ahead of time if you are interested in purchasing her - I am sure the website will have more info, or check out the front of the sales catalog.

Also - you can bid over the phone if you are interested but can't get there in person. If you DO end up with her, she is considered yours as soon as she is sold - the handler will take her back to her stall but you will need to hook up with someone to take care of her that night (if you aren't there in person) and get her on the van.

Auctions are a blast, I wish I could go to the Fas Tip sale next week or Keeneland in February.

[cloudyandcallie]

Go buy her. Or contact her owners before auction and make them an offer.

Save her life and give her a good home.

[Pronzini]

Go buy her. Or contact her owners before auction and make them an offer.

Save her life and give her a good home.

Oh stop being dramatic. Barretts is very reputable and she'll probably bring several thousand dollars.

Good grief.

[imissvixen]

My obsession has nothing to do with her credentials. I saw her race, I liked her, she reminds me of a mare I used to have. I am at that point in my life where it gets hard to get excited/interested in much of anything so when I do, I pay more attention to it. I haven't done anything irrational lately. It may be that I am due.

Do they expose the seller's minimum price prior to the sale?

[VirginiaBred]

I haven't done anything irrational lately. It may be that I am due.


I hope you can get her! :yes:

[imissvixen]

You guys are enablers... :)

[pandorasboxx]

I haven't done anything irrational lately. It may be that I am due.


Funniest damn thing I've seen here in a looong time!

[GollyGee]

There is should be knock down minimum price for horses of racing age.
they may very well have no reserve on her.
I would
#1. call sale agent feel them out on price.
2. get my line of credit going w/ Barrets and find a hauler.
Barretts or agent might be able to help you w/ that one.
3.Let agent know if she does not reach a reserve to call you immedialtely after she leaves ring and see if you can make a deal.
4. see if anyone on this board is going to be there so they can eyeball her for you, maybe send a cell phone pic and be your ears @ the auction should she not sell so they can follow her to barn and get a phone call sale
I bet you can still buy her thru Barrets outside of sale w/ your crdit line:):D

Kudos go for it, we all need a bit of on the wild side.

[summerhorse]

A lot of Barrett's horses are sold to the KBs if they don't bring any bids. I know TBfriends has gotten quite a few from them from people who just went to buy the rejects after the sale and Tranquility Farm has too. They (TF) also go and ask for them to donate the in foals mares. Some do, some sell to the KB. If you really want this mare or want to see her safe get someone to bid on her for you or to follow her RIGHT from the sale ring if she doesn't meet reserve or gets no bids and make them an offer. The KBs generally (GENERALLY) don't pay more than $300-400 for them (and those are high if they think they might be able to flip them instead of ship them). If you have the money up front you might be able to get someone from a rescue who knows the players there to bid on her for you if she isn't going to a private buyer. And like someone said above you can try contacting the owner/agent and get her before the sale if they are selling out.

[Andrew]

You guys are enablers... :)

I can say that VB is for sure !!!!! LOL xoxoxo u VB :-))

[imissvixen]

Okay, I will call the agent today. I think I am also going to try to track down her old trainer. She was at Golden Gate Fields. Maybe he will have some info. And I will check at Barretts about line of credit and other particulars.

My friends and people who know me don't hang around the Racing board but if for some reason you are lurking, my husband will not need to know where this horse came from if by some chance she shows up in our lives.

[selah]

Okay, I will call the agent today. I think I am also going to try to track down her old trainer. She was at Golden Gate Fields. Maybe he will have some info. And I will check at Barretts about line of credit and other particulars.

My friends and people who know me don't hang around the Racing board but if for some reason you are lurking, my husband will not need to know where this horse came from if by some chance she shows up in our lives.

:lol: I am wishing for a LOL icon with tears:lol:

I love the statement about paying more attention when things get you excited/interested...I can just picture God breathing a sigh of relief as I become more fluid and pliable (the older & stiffer my physical self gets)!!!

BTW I have a Dixie Brass broodie whose damsire is Relaunch (who is on the bottom of Miss Abby Kat's pedigree). She is an eye-candy mare who is a beautiful producer (AQHA circuit hunters w/previous owner, will have her first warmblood foal next month).

[Baroquecoco]

sometimes the universe just sends us little signs and we need to follow them. I know what you mean about feeling excited about something and needing to follow it through. good luck to you in getting this girl. so very brave of you to follow this through.

[SleepyFox]

Some of you people need to get real. This is a sound, fit filly who is being sold as part of a dispersal. She won last out for a $12.5k tag and is being sold through one of the most exclusive auction houses in the country - she is NOT in danger of going to any kill buyer. In the racing business we sell at auction; it's just how we do things - not unlike art, antiques, etc.

Imisvixen, I followed your previous thread about this mare and I do encourage you to get her if you really like her. I also encourage you to attend the sale live if you are serious about her. See her in person and make sure you like her (you can see her at the barns the day before her sale date). They'll bring her out and you can see how she is to handle, etc. You can't have a full PPE done, but you can have xrays taken or have a vet look at any xrays that might be in the repository. Vet clinics have tables set up near the pavilion to make arrangements. And, besides, a TB auction is a lot of fun - if you can, you should definitely go.

Barrets has a $1k minimum bid on all horses. The owner may elect to put a reserve of their choosing on the horse and may or may not disclose that to potential buyers. The appropriate way to determine that is to simply ask the consignor if she is selling with reserve. If she sells beyond your price or if you are uncertain if she sold at all, it would be appropriate to follow her back to the consignors barn after she leaves the ring and politely inquire as to her status. If she is unsold, you may then make an offer. If she is sold, you might be able to connect with her new owners and let them know you're available for retirment, if/when needed.

But, again - this is a filly being sold as a race horse who just won her last race. She will sell well.

[caffeinated]

I haven't done anything irrational lately. It may be that I am due.

Good enough!

I saw a horse at a yearling auction years ago, and have been totally obsessed ever since. Because... he whinnied at me and looked sad when I walked away from his stall. Seriously, I had to stalk the pedigreequery site until he was listed (he had no name at the time). Put him in my virtual stable immediately. But apparently he hasn't raced :(

If he ever comes up for sale, I'm in big, big trouble.

[selah]

Per SleepyFox:
Some of you people need to get real. This is a sound, fit filly who is being sold as part of a dispersal. She won last out for a $12.5k tag and is being sold through one of the most exclusive auction houses in the country - she is NOT in danger of going to any kill buyer. In the racing business we sell at auction; it's just how we do things - not unlike art, antiques, etc.


Maayybeee (start the old "Night Gallery" music here....and read in a Rod Serling-esque voice:cool:) Maybe she's not being drawn there for Miss Abby Kat at allllll....maayybeee Miss Abby Kat is just the lure, and the real purpose will be revealed...maybe when she gets there....maayybeee years later...Bom bom Baaaam!!!!:eek::eek::eek::eek:

[Texarkana]

Some of you people need to get real. This is a sound, fit filly who is being sold as part of a dispersal. She won last out for a $12.5k tag and is being sold through one of the most exclusive auction houses in the country - she is NOT in danger of going to any kill buyer. In the racing business we sell at auction; it's just how we do things - not unlike art, antiques, etc.

Imisvixen, I followed your previous thread about this mare and I do encourage you to get her if you really like her. I also encourage you to attend the sale live if you are serious about her. See her in person and make sure you like her (you can see her at the barns the day before her sale date). They'll bring her out and you can see how she is to handle, etc. You can't have a full PPE done, but you can have xrays taken or have a vet look at any xrays that might be in the repository. Vet clinics have tables set up near the pavilion to make arrangements. And, besides, a TB auction is a lot of fun - if you can, you should definitely go.

Barrets has a $1k minimum bid on all horses. The owner may elect to put a reserve of their choosing on the horse and may or may not disclose that to potential buyers. The appropriate way to determine that is to simply ask the consignor if she is selling with reserve. If she sells beyond your price or if you are uncertain if she sold at all, it would be appropriate to follow her back to the consignors barn after she leaves the ring and politely inquire as to her status. If she is unsold, you may then make an offer. If she is sold, you might be able to connect with her new owners and let them know you're available for retirment, if/when needed.

But, again - this is a filly being sold as a race horse who just won her last race. She will sell well.

Amen! SleepyFox said it much more tactfully and eloquently than I could have hoped to do.

[caffeinated]

hey now, only two people on this whole thread are being alarmist :)

The rest of us just like to enable irrationality.

;)

[Texarkana]

hey now, only two people on this whole thread are being alarmist :)

The rest of us just like to enable irrationality.

;)


I'm all for enabling irrationality.

Go get her, imissvixen. :lol:

[imissvixen]

Thanks for the dose of reality. I am thinking about going to the sale. My family and kid are in CA and Southwest has tickets for $91 each way. What the hell.

If any COTHers are going to be there, let me know.

[babygreenqueen]

barretts auction is a blast!! been there a few times years ago and always find something i want to take home. the energy is great and people watching, so cal celebs and all......
i went with hunter trainers to find prospects and its an education of conformation following function.
have a great time, wish i could go too!

[Moderator 1]

We merged your two threads about this girl into one, so it's easier to follow your story with her. You can edit the thread title at any time (using the advanced edit feature) if you want to draw attention to a new development.

Good luck if you decide to hit the auction!
Mod 1

[GollyGee]

Hey now its a race stable dispersol..so there are several things in play.
Partners disolving? And some may well buy back a few horses or the trainer may buy some for his/her self.
They also may just let them go for what ever they bring its a total crap shot.
Yes Barretts is a top notch auction house but Please this isn't Saratoga or Keeneland Select so stop putting the fear of God in this woman.
Let her run w/ the wind. Sometime dreams do come true and you won't know unless you try.

At the very worst she can go see who bought her, drop off a business card w/ contact #'s and say if n' when shes done let me know.
***Also a side note if you should not get her, and the new owner is nice you can have you name and number put on her papers...yes guys she can stating that in the eventuality mare comes up for sale please contact you. Remember Zitto did that and old stakes horse found his way back to him


Do not be negative, I just sat thru Fasig Tipton Timonium and stuff that should have sold didn't.
In a perfect world she would sell for what she runs for but it ain't even close to being perfect.
Go enjoy and please share the whole experiance w/ us!!! :D:D:D
I'm rooting for JINGLE BUMP what ever....
and PS my husband never knows from day to day how many we actually own.
Bay horses blue rugs...still thinks my WB gelding is in field..sold the toad 3 years ago.:yes:

[VirginiaBred]

Good luck if you decide to hit the auction!
Mod 1


Mod 1 rocks hard core!!! :yes::cool:

[tntpony]

This is SSSS0000000 exciting! I love when our hearts are in charge. I have never had a single regret when I felt this way about an animal, a major purchase, or hey, even a man. There is a reason why these things hit us so deeply....they are meant to be. Go get your filly!

[TBJumper514]

Good luck if you decide to go!

I have been obsessed with a horse that belonged to a trainer in a barn I groomed in 6 years ago at the Fair Grounds. I'm talking to the point of having dreams about him. I followed him in my Virtual Stable since 2002-03 winter. Well, he won 3 in a row over the summer, and coincidentally I started working for the racing commission at the Fair Grounds where he would be running this winter. I saw the trainer on Thanksgiving and asked him about the horse(who hadn't run since August). Well, he tells me the horse is entered that Sunday. I asked him what he was going to do with him after he's done racing, and he tells me that he's mine when they are done with him(which will be by the end of the meet)!!!! He also tells me that he tried to give the horse away in August, but the people never showed up to pick him up so they kept training him. He just turned 11 and ran 3rd Nov 30 and 2nd Dec 31, so we'll see when he runs next. He is gorgeous, calm, and I cannot wait to get him after I've been following him so long!

[Baroquecoco]

I don't think the mare is in danger. I just think sometimes we all need to follow a feeling. I have a 20 year old tb grazing in my back field that I felt compelled to ship cross country forever ago. I needed a huge tb gelding who was wild...not! the way things turned out taking that leap was one of the best things I have ever done. sometimes you just have to go for it. jmo

[summerhorse]

She probably is not in danger BUT the market is in the crapper. Go back to the last mixed sale at Barretts and Ocala and see the prices that very very nice mares in foal did not bring. Most weanlings were not even bringing their stud fee when a year ago they'd have brought several times it.

We also don't know if she is sound and CAN race again. So far her record isn't exactly sterling. Her pedigree is nice but Hold Your Tiger (one of my favs) has been sent to France which means he's box office poison now for commercial breeders. So don't just ASSUME that she is safe, let someone follow their heart and be SURE she is safe.

As I said there are several KBs that work out of Barrett's mixed sales every year.

OP I hope you can go and see her and talk to the old/new owners and get your name on her papers. She may indeed need a safety net someday even if she sells well on that day.

[tuppysmom]

Several years ago the hubby and I went to a TB sale *just to look*. We didn't take the checkbook and had just enough cash for lunch and drinks, etc. We managed to buy 2 head by talking someone into loaning us some $$$ for a few days.

TB sales are dangerous places.. LOL

[Blonde Filly]

imissvixen...go for it!!! I've been there done that with Lizzie!!! :D I was at CT one night and saw this mare run and just fell in love with her and just had to have her...well that's were the story begins!!

Long story short, I tried to claim her at CT like 3 times....they kept invalidating it on techincal Bullsh##!!! You forgot to dot an i on the form..forgot to cross a t on the form..you name it three times...I ran up there with my money...well turns out...the owner was one of the board members and in the "good ole boys club,"..so it was not going to happen at CT...well then CT closed down and she went to Penn National...so I got a trainer up there on it...next race she was mine!!! I was in FL on vacation trying to arrange money and ect..but got it done and then I hid her in a friends barn and she never went back to the track again!!! http://www.norsirefarms.com/lizzystonebk.jpg

[Blinkers On]

I don't have her PP's in front of me either nor did I watch any racing the last several days. Who had her at Del Mar? Did she run under Jed's name then or was she shipped north and run under "so and so" and then following start remained in N Cal so she ran under Jed's name. Cal. Is a small world I bet there is someone ho could find out a little sumthin sumthin for you about this girl.
I would doubt a kill buyer as that is being frowned on in a big way in CA. Prices are dropping sale wile. People are unloading horses that aren't useful to them for whatever reason.
If I wasn't trapped in the strangely great white north I'd meet you there! But the weather is indicating I am trapped here for a little while.
If you want a vet to help with looking at her.. and a mixed sale isn't necessarily a place where a load of x ray is done. I can give you a few names and numbers. PM me if you like.

[Lora]

[QUOTE=Blinkers On;3781300]

I would doubt a kill buyer as that is being frowned on in a big way in CA. Prices are dropping sale wile. People are unloading horses that aren't useful to them for whatever reason.


You might want to check out tbfriends.com - I think Joe would disagree - he is in California - Monday, January 5th... A direct quote from horse killer Manny Phelps: January will break all records. More horses will be taken to slaughter in Mexico and Canada than any other month in history. From Northern California at least 15 truck loads. Comes to around 300 horses.

[NancyM]

Good luck with the trip, have fun, and maybe get a chance to buy the horse you are following. I also think she will sell for more than the knockdown price, by several thousand dollars. But it is hard to tell if she will have a reserve on her, and her current soundness state after her most recent start will have some impact on her price. Perhaps she has lost her best friend with her maiden status. But she may have value as a racehorse to a B circut owner/trainer, with the hope that she may improve with maturity and lesser quality competition. But I bet that $2000 to $5000 might buy her. Less if there is a noticable problem. More if she goes to auction with members of the existing ownership wanting her back, or puts a reserve on her.

[Pronzini]

This horse is as likely to go to the killers as any training level competitor at a recognized CDS show. Sure anything can happen--and those horses can be more at risk than people like to believe as all it can take is a toxic brew of job loss and horse injury and that $10K show horse is a $500 "makes a nice pet" horse. But in all probability, this horse will go to a racing home for somewhere around $10K. The calculation is this: she just won a maiden $12,500 easily by 4. Buyers have to think, if she's OK (and she's being sold as part of a dispersal and not necessarily "dumped") that she could be competitive in a $12,500 nonwinners of two or alternatively that she will win a $6250 claimer, get claimed and take down the $5000 purse. That can happen in 30 days which is why she's be worth about $10K.

Sorry to get so pedantic, but sometimes the strident misinformation gets a little tough to take on a so called racing forum. Yes racing has problems and there are people involved I wouldn't trust train ivy up a wall, but the connections that this filly has had to date aren't those people.

And to the OP, if you were ever interested in owning a racehorse, this could be a fun filly to have. She's fit, readymade, competitive if you spot her right and probably OK. I won my first race this year with a homebred and there is really nothing quite like it. I highly recommend it if you have the money and the inclination :)

If not, please approach with an open mind and enjoy her career for what it is. Claimers do sometimes get fan clubs for the darnedest reasons. My trainer once told me about racing fans who loved a local $12,500 claimer he trained and basically got adopted by the barn as honorary owners but that is because they were respectful and their genuine enjoyment of the filly's accomplishments was fun to be around. Words to the wise--Do yourself a favor and don't be the one who implies that you're swooping down to rescue one. That may play well here but step back a minute and realize how presumptious and insulting that could sound to the person you are addressing. Honey and vinegar and all that.

[GollyGee]

Pronzizi , the fillies not "all that n bag of chips" for petes sake its a filly who just won for $12K and we don't even know the quality of forms of what she beat!!
It will be what it will be, don't be such a gloomy Gus.
Let the OP go enjoy herself, you don't know what emotions this filly sums up in the OP. And in some peoples minds a new non racing life is a "rescue".
Bad weather bad stock market day..all can effect who gets sold for what.
People may blow their wad early in sale or she may step in ring while someone goes to take a pee. Its a total crap shot and OP intends to stand ringside front and center and hope to kiss a duck she brings her dream home.
Why be so pragmatic!
Get on the horn call a bloodstock agent and solicite the opinion of one who is those trenches in the target area.
W/O knowing the exact terms of her connections dispersal I.E. reserve, or if they intend to retain under new umbrella and public sale is contracted way of putting a "Real" value. done all the time.
Go for it:D

[Blue Domino]

This filly has a lousy catalog page, a runner at 2 and 3 with earnings of only three thousand and change. Running in California, with California purses. That's REALLY BAD race record.

Hope you find a way to save her.

[Jessi P]

Lousy catalog page? Arent there like 20 black type winners under her 2nd dam? Just going on memory - I looked at it yesterday or the day before.

And yes I echo the sentiment - dont ever tell a racetracker you are "rescuing" a racehorse - it puts our back up, since most horses don't ever receive the level of care they received while they were at the track once they leave it. Sure, lots of exceptions to the rule, but the reality is that while some folks may indeed be rescuing an ottb (such as by pulling it out of the kill pen), the vast majority of folks simply PURCHASE them like anyone else buys a horse.

[GollyGee]

Left Havens a message to call so we shall all see waht the Bloodstaock agent has to say..."with a grain of salt".............:yes:

[Jessi P]

Lets look again at her pedigree.

http://www.barretts.com/Catalog/catjan09/pdf/85.pdf

Under the 2nd dam we have a Horse of the Year, Champion Sprinter, Champion Handicap horse LOBO. We also have APPROVED TO FLY, a multiple GRADED stakes winner, who was dam to a stakes winner and stakes placed winner. Going down the page (STILL under the 2nd dam) there are 4 more stakes placed winners and then 2 stakes winners.

Her damsire is Honour and Glory - hardly one to laugh at, with Stop the Music as the next broodie sire following the damline.

I am not sure, and I dont have the catalog to look it up at the moment, but I am pretty sure the upset price (minimum bid) is $1k, which puts them out of the Killer Buyers price range. I dont think she will need "saving."

[Faircourt]

I fell in love with a filly i saw racing at Laurel in 1992. Being a teen at the time, I followed her racing career for the next year in the Sports section and then she disappeared. The internet wasn't really there back then so I kind of forgot about her. Years later I looked up her former trainer and gave them a call to see what had happened to her but they didn't remember, just that she had been sold.

In 2004, I happened to be bored checking out Dreamhorse.com and just put her name in the search to see what would happen. Up popped an ad for the exact mare, 12 years later in upstate New York. I contacted the owners and bought her immediately sight unseen. Seeing her come off the shipping trailer for the first time is still an experience that gives me goosebumps. In 2007 she gave me her first foal and has been one fo the best horses I have ever owned. I wish I had bought her right off the track all those years ago!

so my vote is go get that horse of your dreams!!

[Blue Domino]

I'll repeat, this filly has a lousy catalog page. Running for two years in the state with the highest purses she could only manage to win 3,000 dollars. That's pathetic. Nobody wants to pay big money to raise babies out of her. She couldn't run, and her dam On and On couldn't run.

She should make a wonderful sport horse. Hope somebody saves her. She definitely needs to be saved.

LOBO: Champion in Mexico. That just gets no respect here in California.

[GollyGee]

Blue Domino you have my repsect, did the research.
2nd dam was a producer whose fillies produced.
With that said Broodmare market in the crapper and stallion prices falling shall me have a virtual lottery and see who can guess what she brings.
Still waiting for Havens to call back............
Hey maybe I'll call a gal pal @ Calumet she's a bloodstock agent see what her thougths are!

[Jessi P]

Actually she did not race 2 for years - she was unraced as a 2 yo. She is coming off a win, if the earlier post about her just winning for 12,500 is accurate, so she is not a maiden.

You call this mare under her 2nd dam (Approved to Fly) lousy? Do you know what "Graded Stakes" means? Do you know what the "Breeders Cup" is?

1986 APPROVED TO FLY,B,f,Flying Paster 2 15 4 4 0 371,071 20.04
North America 2 YO Record * 8 1 2 0 195,096
North America Dirt Sprints 6 2 2 0 65,025
North America Dirt Routes 9 2 2 0 306,046
North America Muddy/Sloppy 1 0 0 0 70,000
DP = 5-2-6-1-0 DI = 2.50 CD = 0.79 AWD = 7.13
At 2 2nd Del Mar Debutante S. -G2 (200,000), Sorrento S. -G3 (75,000), 4th Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies S. -G1 (1,000,000), Hollywood Starlet S. -G1 (500,000), Oak Leaf S. -G1 (200,000), Landaluce S. -G3 (75,000)

At 3 Won Silver Belles Handicap -G2 (100,000), Linda Vista Handicap -G3 (75,000), 2nd Calif. Breeders Champion S. (R) (F) -L (125,000), Torrey Pines S. (R) -L (75,000)

I will not call her catalog page lousy in any way shape or form - but feel free to continue to do so yourself. :lol: You know what they say about opinions.

Not only California people are buying at the Barretts sale. Not everyone is looking to raise a Cali foal. There are many, many state bred programs where a mare like this would fit just perfectly - in fact her page is a lot better than many, mares foaling in WV (with 40% W Va bred bonus on top of our VERY lucrative purses in open races). My ex husband just ran a WV bred he paid $250 for in a $30k wide open race - she is a maiden who ran 2nd - $5k for 2nd by a $250 horse gives you some kind of idea how good our WV bred program is. And many folks here are now foaling out in PA to run for the super hot purses at Philadelphia and Presque Isle. Just because you don't think she is worth anything doesn't mean someone else doesn't. But I reiterate - you are perfectly entitled to your opinion. Whats the saying... 2 people, 3 opinions?

[imissvixen]

I wasn't thinking about it as a rescue but more as a horse that for very emotional reasons I connected with. And it is occurring to me that I could continue her racing career but on the East Coast. But I would be coming at it as a complete novice to the business not that that is a big deal and not as a rich person.

I would love to hear all feedback on her value.

[Blue Domino]

What her second dam did, might have had some meaning in the past, before she started her race career.

However, she's already proven that she can't run a lick.

Therefore, any foals that she would produce would show a first and second dam who couldn't run a lick, A third dam who could produce. What a 3rd dam did doesn't mean anything, not here in California, or any other state either.

I hope somebody rescues her, cause she needs rescued.

No wonder her owners the Beckers are dispersing of all their race horses. If they all ran like this one, then they've gone bankrupt for sure. She's been a money pit for them for two years. They've probably lost $20,000 in training fees and vet bills racing her for two years.

Go ahead an buy her, and run her on the East coast. I'm sure she could lose somebody $20,000 paying to run her there too.


Her value now, is if she is beautiful and will appeal to somebody as a hunter jumper or dressage horse. I hope she's pretty.

[Texarkana]

What her second dam did, might have had some meaning in the past, before she started her race career.

However, she's already proven that she can't run a lick.

Therefore, any foals that she would produce would show a first and second dam who couldn't run a lick, A third dam who could produce. What a 3rd dam did doesn't mean anything, not here in California, or any other state either.

I hope somebody rescues her, cause she needs rescued.

No wonder her owners the Beckers are dispersing of all their race horses. If they all ran like this one, then they've gone bankrupt for sure. She's been a money pit for them for two years. They've probably lost $20,000 in training fees and vet bills racing her for two years.

Go ahead an buy her, and run her on the East coast. I'm sure she could lose somebody $20,000 paying to run her there too.


Her value now, is if she is beautiful and will appeal to somebody as a hunter jumper or dressage horse. I hope she's pretty.


Who peed in your cornflakes this morning? :lol:

[Blinkers On]

[QUOTE=Blinkers On;3781300]

I would doubt a kill buyer as that is being frowned on in a big way in CA. Prices are dropping sale wile. People are unloading horses that aren't useful to them for whatever reason.


You might want to check out tbfriends.com - I think Joe would disagree - he is in California - Monday, January 5th... A direct quote from horse killer Manny Phelps: January will break all records. More horses will be taken to slaughter in Mexico and Canada than any other month in history. From Northern California at least 15 truck loads. Comes to around 300 horses.


New rule.. Owners and trainers will face repercussions. Stalls will become limited or unavailable I believe if a horse last with them is in a kill pen. Joe can disagree if he wants. He ought to be getting tat #'s and reporting it if he sees it ASAP.
The economy is in the dump.. people are unloading. We are trying to prevent our horses from heading to Mexico. We won't stop all of them, but there is a conscious effort to make people accountable for the horse in life in racing and after.

This filly isn't liable to go to the killers. I agree with JesseP. So many people come to Barrett's to buy stock that won't do here, but will do at Portland or Turf Paradise. Heck Los Al. Nancy M, Terry Clyde is there more often than not. As is Diadoro from AB. I know they are coming. Just because horses don't "do" in California.. um where the purses are dropping at each meet.. doesn't mean they won't do somewhere else with lesser competition. She's likely a useful race horse to someone.
Still no one has her PP's.. I suppose they are in the catalog.
Here are the cuts.. she's third page or so. She has one horse that won recently on her PP's... She's Cheeky.
http://www.barretts.com/catalog/catjan09/documents/January2009PastPerformances.pdf

She has been running MSW till the last start against claimers and ran the best race of her life. She went 22, 45.3, 58.2 and faded to fourth. She dueled the entire way till she couldn't. Tough way to race for some. She might really be a useful filly. Likely a bleeder as her trouble line has too many "weakened, gave way and empty." She does not look like she is overly rateable. Though has never had an easy lead. She might just shine if she didn't have to go an opening 1/4 in 22, 23 with quite so much regularity and be pressed every time, even when going a route of ground. The bleeding and the "run off" are things you can deal with.
I have a friend that clocks and marks horses in the am and pm. his phone is off as it is his day off, but I left him a message and will ask his opinion of how she trains and looks physically. Knowing Jay she's too thin. Jed likely helped that some.
She might be a lot of fun.

[hastyrebeljane]

I think the diversity of opinions here reflects exactly the kind of problems we are having in racing. Particularily as a breeder I always want the best homes possible for my horses when they retire.And I appreciate a former writer's comment that when we are selling a horse we resent the anti-racing factor letting us know they are rescuing our horse from a deplorable life! But by the same token where are all the rescuers when a trainer's back is up against the wall with a clients horse that can't run and the client is going to dump him and there is no where for him to go?......it's fine to get all rightous about not sending horses to the killers but it might beat starving to death in a field. People in racing are looking for solutions to this difficult and often heartbreaking problem and I for one am tired of people who just want to judge.

[SleepyFox]

I wasn't thinking about it as a rescue but more as a horse that for very emotional reasons I connected with. And it is occurring to me that I could continue her racing career but on the East Coast. But I would be coming at it as a complete novice to the business not that that is a big deal and not as a rich person.

I would love to hear all feedback on her value.

She's being sold as a race horse which means she's being sold as sound for racing, so you DO have a good idea that she's sound (to address Summerhorse's comments).

Value-wise, I'd guess b/w $5-10k. Prozini knows this market and is giving you good advice. Continuing her race career is certainly an option and as long as you don't have a problem running her in claiming races she could do well for you.

Blue Domino is correct - she doesn't have an overly commercial pedigree and as a BROODMARE prospect she wouldn't bring much. But, she's selling as a racehorse. Makes a ton of difference! A horse that just won by 4 IS a decent runner by most people's standards.

Whatever you decide - hope you can attend the sale and have some fun!

[Blinkers On]

He he he. I'd take Peace Chant and El Roblar for $5,000... sure that'll happen!

[imissvixen]

I will go to the sale. I bought the plane tickets, it's $200, not a big deal. And a road trip right now would get me out of the doldrums. It rains here endlessly. I have toyed with the idea of racing. My riding career at this point is more behind me than in front of me but I like managing my horses. I am not probably a breeding person at heart as I do believe that there are too many horses in the world.

But the reason that this particular horse caught my interest was that I just happened to go to Delmar about three weeks after I had to put down my mare Abi, pronounced Abby, who we called Miss Abi. She was a rescue from Fingerlakes. She broke her maiden in her first race, came in second in her second race, and then bowed. She never came back right, had a curb, etc, etc. Louise had her listed on the COTH board as one of those that had to find a home within a week or she was a goner. One look at her photo and for some reason it clicked for me. Here are some photos of her.

http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp149/Horse_Feet/AbiHead.jpg
http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp149/Horse_Feet/AbisFirstHunt.jpg http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp149/Horse_Feet/Abi2070603.jpg

I had her for three or four years, I can't remember. She contracted acute laminitis this summer while at NC State Vet School for something unrelated and rotated and sank. She was in terrible pain and it was a hugely emotional experience for me and everyone involved with her case. The attending vet and the students were all sobbing as we concluded that her prognosis was grave. I was and remain devastated. Several days after she was euthanized she appeared in a dream at my pasture fence to tell me she was okay. Even now, I see Boozer my old warmblood gelding who loved her looking off at what seems to be nothing in the distance and I am convinced it is Abi.

So anyhow here I am a few weeks later perchance at Delmar with my husband and there is a three year old bay filly named Miss Abby Kat running. We bet a bunch of money on her -- for us anyhow -- and she led the field a good portion of the way with me screaming and sobbing for her to keep going. She faded and came in pretty far behind. Since then I kept track of her and was in San Francisco visiting my son when she ran in December at Golden Gate Fields.

So, that's what attracts me to this particular horse.

[GollyGee]

:)I still say go for it...Havens not called back.
Calumet gal says $5K
Trainer told me $5-$7 1/2 K..not Miss Abby's
But I checked in w/ old buddy over @2 Fasig tipton wha says same thing market in dumper its a coin toss.............

[Laurierace]

I was going to warn you on the dangers of getting one horse because you want to replace another horse from your past, but my guess is you will love her for who she is once she is in your barn.
As far as guessing her value, it is true that her second dam will become the third dam and that is a long way to go back to before you finally hit a race horse BUT you hit a lot of real race horses so that may carry some weight. Its definitely a buyers market as far as breeding goes but people will pay a little more for a horse they can run right away. A general rule of thumb is half to 3/4 of her average claiming price. That doesn't work quite as well when talking about maiden races but gives you a vague idea.
Best of luck to you both. I have been to many sales there, its a lot of fun and a very nice venue. Be careful though, you could end up with a few dozen after the sale if they get word about how much of a softie you are!

[Baroquecoco]

here, here! count me in on the offended by rescues who want to judge everyone and everything with out being part of the solution clique. or maybe just start a thread of horse rescue group horror stories. ok, hubby is taking away my chocolate now. good luck getting your girl!

[Mao]

I fell for a horse at Keeneland racetrack this fall. His name is Just Like Biscuit. I wish I'd kept up on his career - because it was same sort of emotional impact.

By the way, I live in Kentucky. Toilet is a kind word for the market.

imissvixen - I hope you get your girl! :-)

[Blue Domino]

Who peed in your cornflakes this morning? :lol:


Reality is harsh. They can't run, and if nobody wants to adopt them for a new life as an off the track thoroughbred, then they end up on some french mans dinner plate. Maybe she's so pretty some rich person will buy her as a broodmare, we can only hope.

There are some really nice race prospects in the Barretts sale, my choice would be one of the Popular yearlings, or one of the mare's in foal to Popular. His first crop 2 year olds did quite well in California this year.

I own an old TB mare, daughter of a top broodmare sire, got her cheap because she couldn't run, her dam couldn't run, but her second dam could.

If I wasn't feeding her, she'd end up on a Frenchman's dinner plate. Us OTTB owners don't fool ourselves. We know the next stop.

[Kyzteke]

What her second dam did, might have had some meaning in the past, before she started her race career.

However, she's already proven that she can't run a lick.

Therefore, any foals that she would produce would show a first and second dam who couldn't run a lick, A third dam who could produce. What a 3rd dam did doesn't mean anything, not here in California, or any other state either.


Ever heard of a mare called "La Troienne?" She couldn't run a lick either....

[jenm]

But the reason that this particular horse caught my interest was that I just happened to go to Delmar about three weeks after I had to put down my mare Abi, pronounced Abby, who we called Miss Abi.
So anyhow here I am a few weeks later perchance at Delmar with my husband and there is a three year old bay filly named Miss Abby Kat running. We bet a bunch of money on her -- for us anyhow -- and she led the field a good portion of the way with me screaming and sobbing for her to keep going. She faded and came in pretty far behind. Since then I kept track of her and was in San Francisco visiting my son when she ran in December at Golden Gate Fields.

So, that's what attracts me to this particular horse.

I love this story and am totally cheering you on!! :)

[BasqueMom]

Just wishing you luck at the auction--a connection is a connection and if you want her,
get her! Some things are just meant to be...

[tbracer65]

Reality is harsh. They can't run, and if nobody wants to adopt them for a new life as an off the track thoroughbred, then they end up on some french mans dinner plate. Maybe she's so pretty some rich person will buy her as a broodmare, we can only hope.

I still don't understand how you can decide that this filly can not run.....I could undestand if she was still a maiden that showed absolutely nothing on her form running at the bottom level -- but this filly is a front-runner...never really rated & was running at the top against some tough company until her last few starts (where she STILL wasn't dropped to the bottom) -- in which one of them she win easily. She also never run shorter than 6 furlongs besides the race she win...she'd probably be even better going 5f. Put this filly at a cheaper track such as where Jessi P is from & she'd be one *ell of a filly....probably go right through her conditions racking up close to $30k in 4 starts. Take her to Presque Isle or Philly & she'd double that $30k with those purses & she'd probably even be claimed if run at the bottom (but of course, those trainers won't know what they're doing since they'd be claiming a horse that can't run:lol:)....I agree with the others == that she'll sell for between $5 to $10k & probably leave the state of California to another track. Only thing I can see dropping her sale price is something obvious to the bidder that would hinder or put a hint of doubt to her soundness.

OP -- have fun at the sale & I do hope you get her --- even if you don't, do what some other suggested & try & get your name listed on her papers as a back-up when she's done with her racing career.;)

[Blinkers On]

To add to that she might really enjoy real dirt instead of the synthetics she's been subjected to.

[Blue Domino]

Ever heard of a mare called "La Troienne?" She couldn't run a lick either....


La Troienne was owned by the filthy rich and bought by the filthy rich. Cat doesn't have that luxury. Her owners the Beckers are dumping her at public auction. She has nothing in common with La Troienne.

[Blue Domino]

I still don't understand how you can decide that this filly can not run.....I could undestand if she was still a maiden that showed absolutely nothing on her form running at the bottom level -- but this filly is a front-runner...never really rated & was running at the top against some tough company until her last few starts (where she STILL wasn't dropped to the bottom) -- in which one of them she win easily. She also never run shorter than 6 furlongs besides the race she win...she'd probably be even better going 5f. Put this filly at a cheaper track such as where Jessi P is from & she'd be one *ell of a filly....probably go right through her conditions racking up close to $30k in 4 starts. Take her to Presque Isle or Philly & she'd double that $30k with those purses & she'd probably even be claimed if run at the bottom (but of course, those trainers won't know what they're doing since they'd be claiming a horse that can't run:lol:)....I agree with the others == that she'll sell for between $5 to $10k & probably leave the state of California to another track. Only thing I can see dropping her sale price is something obvious to the bidder that would hinder or put a hint of doubt to her soundness.

OP -- have fun at the sale & I do hope you get her --- even if you don't, do what some other suggested & try & get your name listed on her papers as a back-up when she's done with her racing career.;)


It'll cost a couple of thousand dollars just to ship her back east. Hope you're right, hope somebody will buy her to run back east. Problem is, horses bred in the states they run get state paid purse premiums. As a California bred, she won't be eligible for any of those purses for state bred.

Generally, TB horses travel east to west to run. Stakes horses might travel east to run, but I never heard of a claimer traveling east to run. I do hope somebody buys her though.

[Texarkana]

Generally, TB horses travel east to west to run. Stakes horses might travel east to run, but I never heard of a claimer traveling east to run. I do hope somebody buys her though.

Generally, but not always. I used to work for a barn who bought and claimed in CA and shipped them east by the planeful. Not to mention the handful of SoCal regulars who've set up shop in the east to have an alternative to the synthetics.

I really don't understand why you're so dead-set against this mare. Yes, there are better racehorse and broodmare prospects in the world. But she's not the worst one out there. Not by a landslide.

[Pronzini]

Generally, TB horses travel east to west to run. Stakes horses might travel east to run, but I never heard of a claimer traveling east to run. I do hope somebody buys her though.

Actually the Sipps bought 9 horses last October at Barretts and shipped them to Beulah. They've won a few races with them there.

Dale Baird used to buy 10 plus every Barretts mixed sale and ship them to Mountaineer. When he was doing it, it was mainly the slot money fueling it--now the big gorilla in the room is synthetics because there are horses that absolutely hate them and move up a long way on dirt. A horse I know personally went from a $20K claimer in NoCal to a solid allowance /$35K horse on the NY circuit. He made $100K last year. (No I don't own him but wish I did.)

It's getting more and more common to see Calbred horses at Charles Town, Mountaineer etc when that never used to happen. Two are running in claiming races at Philadelphia on Saturday for example.

Of course since this horse is a Kentucky bred talking about Cal breeder awards is kinda irrelevant anyway.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Glad the OP is going to the auction. You might want to contact the agent for the owner first and make them an offer. I've bought a few that way and saved them the cost of running them through the auction. Offer what you are willing to pay for her. Mine were typically 3-5K since that was all they expected to bring in the auction and the owners were happy with the where the horses were going.

Instead of racing her....there are a number of very good and affordable places back here that can get her restarted for you. She can get turned out for 30 or more days as let down and then they can put the initial work on her, get her to some shows and out trail riding. When ready, you can ship her home and you will have an already fun project for you. Or instead of racing her....maybe you can have fun watching her show career.

For example, Jleegriffith posts on COTH and takes great care of her horses. Her family has been with race horses for a long time and she does a lot of re-training of former racers. She's based in Delaware......I'd send one to her in a heart beat. She will get it out showing, eventing, hunting etc. and take good care of her. It would cost a lot less than race horse training....Just another thought.....

[Flypony]

She will sell fairly well if she is sound. She has conditions that she looks like she should run thru. I guess if you want to spend 5K she will be yours. I'will be at the sale, and to be honest with you she intrests me as a race horse for the dirt.

[Muleskick]

Barrets is a reputable sale. This filly found her level and won at it. Sometimes owners get out of the bussiness and sell their stock at sales nothing wrong with that. She will probably be purchased as a racing prospect for around half her claiming price. But where do people get off saying they are going to rescue horses like these. At the track they get 3 meals a day of top quaility feed hay and supplements on a schedule, a personal groom that sees to their every need ie. bandaging blanketing grooming washing and anything else they need on a daily bases, new shoes every four weeks, a personal physician at the barn every day and they train on top quality professionally groomed surfaces. Do you think the general horse owner gives anywhere near this amount of care at home, I don't think so.

[summerhorse]

Yeah most get well treated but not all, some of the care at cheaper tracks is substandard at best. And they only get well treated as long as they are worth something. A racehorse's value can drop to nothing in an instant. The horse is for sale, there's nothing wrong with a person who really likes that horse going and buying that horse and doing whatever the heck they want with it even if that means getting it out of racing totally. I wouldn't call it a rescue but certainly if she is bought and used as a riding horse or broodmare the odds of her breaking down or being sold to a dealer decrease dramatically!

[Blinkers On]

OP, if you need a vet I can help with that. Or a van line.

[SleepyFox]

Good Lord, this thread is getting ridiculous!

I just wanted to address a few of the more absurd points that have come up - Imisvixen, if you decide you want to try to run this filly if you purchase her, there is absolutely no reason her state bred status will prevent her from running wherever you choose. As for traveling east - of course claimers travel east to run. Send the horse wherever you think she'll do well and you will be able to enjoy her. I think she'd fit well at a few tracks on the east coast.

Summerhorse, your comments just illustrate your lack of knowledge of racing.

Miss Abby Kat is not being "dumped." She's being consigned through a premier auction house. Big difference, as I've said before. Making an offer ahead of time is of course possible, but remember the owners will still owe the auction house money even if she is withdrawn. I would imagine they would need a very strong offer (over $10k) to consider it.

Imisvixen, best of luck to you. If you want her, I hope you can get her.

[imissvixen]

Yes, vet and van line info would be appreciated. Can anyone hazard to guess how much it costs to ship cross country these days?

If she were your horse, where on the East Coast would you race her? I live closest to Colonial Downs but they have a very short season.

[BeastieSlave]

Yeah most get well treated but not all, some of the care at cheaper tracks is substandard at best. And they only get well treated as long as they are worth something.

Where's the fruibat?! I just picked up a lovely 4 y.o. filly from a trainer at the track for a couple hundred dollars. She's sound, well bred (I did get her papers), very well conformed, a good size, and a great mover. To top it off she has the absolute sweetest disposition!

Despite the fact that I paid next to nothing for her, she was for sale for a loooong time, and she wasn't winning - she's in great shape. Her weight is good, her coat is fine, and her feet show that she has been well cared for. She's even the first horse (on or off the track) that I've bought who came with a nice leather halter.

BTW, she's not the only horse that came to me from the track this fall/winter in great shape despite the fact that I paid very little for them (and thus they had very little worth :rolleyes:).

summerhorse, your generalizations are not fair :no:

Good luck imissvixin!! :yes:

[SleepyFox]

Yes, vet and van line info would be appreciated. Can anyone hazard to guess how much it costs to ship cross country these days?

If she were your horse, where on the East Coast would you race her? I live closest to Colonial Downs but they have a very short season.

She'd probably fit well at Colonial (and run elsewhere the rest of the year). She'd probably do well at Penn National, too. Or Charles Town. Maybe Delaware Park. In all honesty, she could probably run pretty much anywhere as long as you put her in the right races. (I would not bother running her at all if you're not okay with claiming races.) Find a trainer you like with a day rate you can live with and go from there! :)

[Jessi P]

I wouldn't mind running her here at Mountaineer, either, she would definitely fit right in here and make a few bucks.

[GollyGee]

You can call commercial haulers to just get a feel for rates.
Nationwide comes to mind, don't know if Brookeledge goes that far west.
If you call Barretts they maybe able to hook you up a hauler.
Also if you are successful ask around @ sale there could be more horses coming East. Let the office know when you payup they will put the word out your looking for a ride east.

If she can get as far east as KY,let me know can help you get a lay-over until the last leg of her journey completed.

Good Luck....Good Thoughts.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

So if the OP buys the horse, where will she race the horse? Doesn't sound like the horse is allowance level, so will she run the horse in claimers and risk having the horse claimed away from her after going to all the bother of crossing the country to buy the horse?

[imissvixen]

Yeah, the claiming race thing could be an issue. That would kind of suck. I know you guys mentioned this before. Is that the only option?

[summerhorse]

Where's the fruibat?! I just picked up a lovely 4 y.o. filly from a trainer at the track for a couple hundred dollars. She's sound, well bred (I did get her papers), very well conformed, a good size, and a great mover. To top it off she has the absolute sweetest disposition!

Despite the fact that I paid next to nothing for her, she was for sale for a loooong time, and she wasn't winning - she's in great shape. Her weight is good, her coat is fine, and her feet show that she has been well cared for. She's even the first horse (on or off the track) that I've bought who came with a nice leather halter.

BTW, she's not the only horse that came to me from the track this fall/winter in great shape despite the fact that I paid very little for them (and thus they had very little worth :rolleyes:).

summerhorse, your generalizations are not fair :no:

Good luck imissvixin!! :yes:

Maybe you need to read a little closer. I said MOST are well treated but not ALL. Well that is a generalization but it is saying that MOST ARE WELL TREATED BUT NOT ALL.

For it to be unfair it would be the other way around. Unless you dig neglect.

A great many of the ones loaded onto kill buyer's trucks/trailers off the track look great (to start out). But for whatever reason they became disposable (for about
$200-300 usually). But there are other "caretakers" out there who do not take care of their horses even when they are racing.

[Blinkers On]

Yes, vet and van line info would be appreciated. Can anyone hazard to guess how much it costs to ship cross country these days?

If she were your horse, where on the East Coast would you race her? I live closest to Colonial Downs but they have a very short season.


You have PM

[Blinkers On]

Yeah, the claiming race thing could be an issue. That would kind of suck. I know you guys mentioned this before. Is that the only option?


It seems the people on this board are familliar with racing more out your way. Someone might know how shippers from N Cal "fit" at the mentioned tracks. Or what options are available to you when entering. Of course there is the chance that a horse might be claimed, and it's a risk we take. BUT there might be starters for lower level horses. I think GGF has or used to have $4,000 starters? Ask a trainer.. ask someone with a condition book, that can read it, to help you out with that. See where she fits.

[Laurierace]

To run in a $4000 starter allowance she would have had to run in a $4000 claimer. Unless they win very impressively, most horses drop down in claiming price from their maiden win to their never win two. I would probably run her for $7500NW2 if she came here.

[Blinkers On]

I know. Do they have a starter equal to the last start? What was that $12,5 or $18,000. My brain is mushy.

$7500 is fair. I would suggest that IF the OP gets the horse she keep the "problems" on the down low. I know a woman who was a breeder of a horse who talked non stop about a horse on a site and he was claimed out of his first start by a member of that site. So if you do have to run for a tag. Be a little paranoid and a whole lot of hush hush.

[Flypony]

I know. Do they have a starter equal to the last start? What was that $12,5 or $18,000. My brain is mushy.

$7500 is fair. I would suggest that IF the OP gets the horse she keep the "problems" on the down low. I know a woman who was a breeder of a horse who talked non stop about a horse on a site and he was claimed out of his first start by a member of that site. So if you do have to run for a tag. Be a little paranoid and a whole lot of hush hush.
The only starter at GG is , have started for 40,000 or less and have never won 2. To be run in the 4,000 you must have started for 4,000 and not have won for 4,000 or more. This horse would not fit in the 40K or less bunch. There are 12,500 N2L or 6250 N2L , that would make sense unless you like just filling races. I would keep the whole thing quiet, you are drawing a bunch of attention to a horse that would likely go unnoticed. However she is likely fairly useful if she goes cheap enuff.

[Blinkers On]

I swear they used to have it.. definitely on the grass maybe just for 12,5... I might be confused.
Ah ha! I just asked my jock agent husband who is at GGF and he confirms they still have the $4,000 starter. Weird conditions to be eligible, but still in existence. He'd know and he's reliable.
The condition book doesn't show it.. they do show a N2starter, but not the 3rd and 4th condition that makes them eligible. Maybe Bomber writes them as extras... I haven't been up there for years, but remember some very cheap starters.

And IMO.. let Jerry and Billy and maybe even Mickey "fill races" they have the stock. Jerry does it regularly.

[SleepyFox]

Yeah, the claiming race thing could be an issue. That would kind of suck. I know you guys mentioned this before. Is that the only option?

The short answer is "yes." As Blinkers On mentioned, there are starter allowances (SAs) that are races for horses that have started for a specific claiming price. But, it ca be hard to find enough SAs that a horse is eligible for and can be competitive in to run it frequently enough. Plus, the competition can be very tough. Your best bet is to look at SAs as a possibility but be okay with running her for a claiming tag. (There are also optional claimers, but they tend to be for higher tags and - again - not something you can bank on being able to find.)

The thing to remember about claiming races is that horses don't get claimed that often and there are specific things people who claim look for. Remember on your thread about her earlier how I said she was in no danger of being claimed? And, if she did get claimed, you can always claim her back. If you talk to a trainer, let them know upfront that you'd prefer not to lose her and you're not okay with being too incautious with where you run her. They can tell you what people are claiming and how frequently.

If Mountaineer is close enough to you, I'd definitely take JessiP up on that statement she made about not minding to try her there. :)

[Pronzini]

I ran a horse in a $25K starter last September at GG--they certainly have starters there. You have to get the horse eligible by running the horse at the level of the starter. This horse should go for more than $4000 and running this horse at that level to get eligible for a $4K starter probably means that the OP is losing the horse.

To the OP, these questions are better asked of trainers--that's part of the service they provide you. Also, while I understand you're excited and want to share, I caution you that the World Wide Web goes everywhere and I've already heard from an owner up North that this thread put Miss Abby Kat on his radar. If she really goes for some of the prices quoted in this thread, he told me that he's owning the horse because at that level "she'd be like finding money". I don't know whether he's serious or not--because this thread and some of the posts in it really amused him--but he's one guy--all of this posting about this one horse is like playing poker and showing your hand. You can get away with that if you have Zenyatta --anything else not so much. Remember, whatever you want to do with this horse, right now she is in the racing world and the game's played by their rules since her highest value is as a racehorse.

As for the track you might run her at--where do you want to run? Do you have a trainer in mind? Run this horse by him or her. That's usually the process. Then the trainer will probably pull her up on Calracing and tell you his or her thoughts as to where she'd fit levelwise.

As for running her in claimers, you owe it to the horse not to overface her. If she can't be competitive outside of claiming races and you can't bear to see her claimed away, then retire her. Frankly, I find it terrible to watch a valiant horse overfaced, giving her all and struggling home with dirt in her face because the owner is being romantic or delusional. Thoroughbreds know when they lose. That's how you break their hearts. That's how you hurt them.

Honestly, just words of advice. Do with them as you will.

[Pat Ness]

If racing wants new owners - they need to find an alternative to so many claiming races. Any friends I try to talk to about racing are not interested in it if their horse has to run in a claiming race. I agree with them 100% and I feel like a heel when I let my horses run in a claiming race. Also, it is hard to enjoy the race when you think you might lose them after worrying about them just completing the race healthy.

I am sure you all think I do not belong in racing, but racing needs to find a way to keep people like me happy in this sport. More optional claiming races on the card and at lower tags? I don't know what the answer is, but - claiming races may be why I quit trying to be in this sport.

What do they do in other countries - I heard there are not as many claiming races in England.
Pat Ness

[Jessi P]

The way I explain it to my parents is this: any horse worth less than $50- 100k is a claimer - it's just a matter of how much of a claimer. Then I tell them I only paid $5k each for mine.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

If racing wants new owners - they need to find an alternative to so many claiming races. Any friends I try to talk to about racing are not interested in it if their horse has to run in a claiming race. I agree with them 100% and I feel like a heel when I let my horses run in a claiming race. Also, it is hard to enjoy the race when you think you might lose them after worrying about them just completing the race healthy.

I am sure you all think I do not belong in racing, but racing needs to find a way to keep people like me happy in this sport. More optional claiming races on the card and at lower tags? I don't know what the answer is, but - claiming races may be why I quit trying to be in this sport.

What do they do in other countries - I heard there are not as many claiming races in England.
Pat Ness

There are few true claiming races in England, they do have selling races where the winner is auctioned off after the race. The vast majority of races on the right side of the pond are handicap races, where horses are assigned a weight according to ability. Sometimes the weight differential can be quite large if the gulf in class between the runners is large. For example, the Peirse Hurdle today at Leopardstown had 30 runners entered with the high weight, the well regarded Newmill, giving away over 25lbs to half the runners in the field. (Newmill was scratched this morning, so the weights were then adjusted upwards accordingly).
France has more claiming races, but no country probably has as many as the US (probably 80%+ or all races in NA are claiming races?).

I agree, so many claiming races engenders an easy come easy go attitude to horses. If you are a small time breeder who breeds to race middle to low end horses, you wouldn't want to get too attached to them. You really should be able to race a horse for the life of the horse at an appropriate level without having to worry about having the horse taken from you.
The claiming system is a nice tool for ensuring some semblance of parity in races, and it's not like having an official handicapper assigning handicap weight to ever horse in the realm does not come with it's own set of problems, but there should be other options.

[Jessi P]

They have those "selling races" in Australia as well.

[Pat Ness]

So with those selling races, can you buy your own back?

That would not be so bad, as it is now, you cannot put a claim in on your own horse... You are just flat out not able to get them back until they go back in another claiming race.

This sport is just not friendly to the owner that wants to hang onto their own horses.

[Jessi P]

Pat a good option for you to consider would be a distance for weight series type of race. A lot of tracks have distance series that start at a mile and increase with each distance every few weeks til the end of the year, when its 2 miles and a 1/16 (here anyway). But often those races are starter races, or non claiming races. Here it takes about a $10k horse to win a $5k starter race, but the purse is pretty large too, I want to say about $18k here (winner gets 60%, 2nd 20%, 3rd 10% and so on. So, if you look for a horse that can go long thats worth about 10k and is eligible for the conditions (sometimes that means having a start over the track or perhaps the horse had to run for $5k within the last year) you should have a nice horse that you can have fun with. I think that is the tracks way of giving a non-claiming race that a $5k horse can run in and be competitive.

[Gestalt]

What about the horses that race during the summer at local fairs? Are those claiming races?

[Pat Ness]

Thanks Jessi - I saw you mention something about this series a short time ago. Since I still have to work a regular job and I like to be on the backside in the morning, my interest is racing at Canterbury Park for now. We have sent horses out, but to be honest, I do not sleep well when they are not close enough to drive to. Maybe once I am in this longer - I can suggest things to the CBY group that writes the conditions book.

I feel for the OP of this thread as her heart is in this horse, she would like to see if it could race, but she does not want to risk losing her in a claiming race. What a shame that racing can't find a place for people like us. I don't think we are dreamers - thinking our horses can win anything, we just do not want to lose them and we would like to enjoy the joy of watching them run without wondering if we will be the one leading them back to the barn.

[Jessi P]

What about the horses that race during the summer at local fairs? Are those claiming races?

Usually all of the fair races are claiming races - filled by horses who can't win at the lowest levels at "real" /year-round racetracks. There might be a race or two that aren't claiming races but the majority are claimers.

Best of luck to you Pat, you have the right idea - suggesting to the racing secretary that they write races that you would be interested in racing your horses in. If the secretaries don't hear from the owners what they want to see in the condition book they won't make any changes. The HBPA is also a good place to start - usually an HBPA board member is on the committee to approve the condition book before it is published. Talk to one of your HBPA members/representatives and explain what it is you are looking for (a race to run in and not worry about losing your horse via claim) - they exist to represent the horsemen's wants and desires. Maybe one voice won't be enough to make a change, but once the idea is out there you might find other owners who feel the same way and recruit them (and their voices) as well.

You know what they say, the squeaky wheel gets the grease! ;)

All the best,
Jessi

[Drvmb1ggl3]

So with those selling races, can you buy your own back?



Yes they can, if they outbid other bidders, but usually if a horse is in a selling race it's there with the intention of being sold. There are plenty of other races to run in where you don't have to risk buying the horse back. I guess if the horse was to romp home and win by 20 lengths the owner may have a change of mind and want to keep the horse!

[unclewiggly]

So what day does filly actually go under the hammer?

[summerhorse]

If racing wants new owners - they need to find an alternative to so many claiming races. Any friends I try to talk to about racing are not interested in it if their horse has to run in a claiming race. I agree with them 100% and I feel like a heel when I let my horses run in a claiming race. Also, it is hard to enjoy the race when you think you might lose them after worrying about them just completing the race healthy.

I am sure you all think I do not belong in racing, but racing needs to find a way to keep people like me happy in this sport. More optional claiming races on the card and at lower tags? I don't know what the answer is, but - claiming races may be why I quit trying to be in this sport.

What do they do in other countries - I heard there are not as many claiming races in England.
Pat Ness


This has always been a pet peeve of mine. You shouldn't HAVE to put your horse up for sale just to race where they belong. I think most races should be optional claimers. They can still make rules to keep the horses where they belong class wise but they'd have more people in racing if they didn't have to worry about losing their stable in one meet. Or losing their favorite horse.

[On the Farm]

This has always been a pet peeve of mine. You shouldn't HAVE to put your horse up for sale just to race where they belong. I think most races should be optional claimers. They can still make rules to keep the horses where they belong class wise but they'd have more people in racing if they didn't have to worry about losing their stable in one meet. Or losing their favorite horse.

What are your suggestions for these rules?

[summerhorse]

Basically they can use the same rules they use now for claimers restricting where they run after such and such value. For example to drop down the horse should finish out of the money twice at the higher value to drop down (if not running for a tag). The only thing that would change is the horse wasn't for sale. One thing I KNOW about tracks and racing is they can make rules to cover ANYthing.

[Laurierace]

This claimers discussion should probably have its own thread, but here we go anyway. I worked for a guy when I was just starting out in racing who had the patience of a saint. He had one horse in particular that he ran every couple of weeks for over a year. Horse never got within 20 lengths of the winner over and over again. He dropped him down farther and farther every time until finally he was running maiden 5k which had about a 4k purse. I guess after enough time had passed, he finally let the horse run after placing several bets with bookies. He cleared over $60k on a 5k claimer.
If we had rules that made it so you could drop your horse down simply because it ran poorly at a higher level, yet didn't have to worry about losing the horse I would think you would find even more race fixing like the above. I just wish he had told me so I could have bet a couple dollars myself.

[halo]

The whole point of claiming races is to level the playing field. If your horse had to run with Secretariat every race, it would soon get very tiresome seeing your horse getting beat 20 lengths every time he ran. There are very few horses claimed every day. Someone has to think your horse is worth the money; that they can make money from the horse. Even if a horse runs $1500 higher than he should be, he won't be claimed. No one wants to lose money. Ive been racing for 20 years; I have yet to have a horse claimed from me. Even ones I wanted claimed. And if I did have one claimed, if I liked them that much, Id just claim them back next time they ran.

You can't run racing without claiming races. 99% of the time that Ive heard people say they wouldnt run their horse in a claiming race because they didnt want to lose them, that very horse would NEVER be claimed because he's just not good enough to be claimed.

[Jessi P]

99% of the time that Ive heard people say they wouldnt run their horse in a claiming race because they didnt want to lose them, that very horse would NEVER be claimed because he's just not good enough to be claimed.

Yeah. That means, if you have a $5k horse and don't want to lose it, run it one level higher than it should be. Of course there will always be the folks looking for a $7500 horse to run for $5k here at Mountaineer because if they win the race and the horse gets claimed they get 13k.

[summerhorse]

The whole point of claiming races is to level the playing field. If your horse had to run with Secretariat every race, it would soon get very tiresome seeing your horse getting beat 20 lengths every time he ran. There are very few horses claimed every day. Someone has to think your horse is worth the money; that they can make money from the horse. Even if a horse runs $1500 higher than he should be, he won't be claimed. No one wants to lose money. Ive been racing for 20 years; I have yet to have a horse claimed from me. Even ones I wanted claimed. And if I did have one claimed, if I liked them that much, Id just claim them back next time they ran.

You can't run racing without claiming races. 99% of the time that Ive heard people say they wouldnt run their horse in a claiming race because they didnt want to lose them, that very horse would NEVER be claimed because he's just not good enough to be claimed.


And yet the rest of the world manages just fine without them most of the time...

[Drvmb1ggl3]

You can't run racing without claiming races.

Of course you can. How do you think the rest of the world runs racing? Weight levels the playing field.

[NancyM]

Well I really like claiming races, I think they work well. They force an owner to put a rational and reasonable value on their horse, to face that reality with every race, changing the value according to the performances put in by the horse. They force an owner to look at his horse as OTHER people see him, evaluate him with the eyes of others in the industry, without emotion involved. Too many people who own horses do not spend enough time in the realms of reality. I think that horseshows should run with "claiming" classes also. The times I have lost a horse to a claim, those horses have been well sold, I would not have got prices like that for them in a private sale. It happens rarely enough that a horse is claimed, and if you value the horse as a pet higher than you value the horse as a racehorse, the horse is no longer a racehorse, take it home and retire it as a pet... simple. Racehorses are not pets, economic factors and realities must always come into play. If you lose a horse to a claim that you want back, it is usually able to be retrieved at some point, in some manner, if you wish and can afford to do so.

[Blinkers On]

I enjoy them as well Nancy. When I worked for Milburn I lived in fear of loosing my baby. As the years have gone by I LOVE it! It's a game. A very fun game!

[Pat Ness]

NancyM - this is why racing is having a hard time getting new owners. I am not asking for the abolishment of claiming races, just more options for those of us that can have horses that are pets and athletes at the same time.

[danceronice]

I agree with Pat. I wouldn't buy a racehorse as a pet, but if I buy one and want to run him where he belongs without having to worry about him being claimed and having to claim him back and what that trainer and owner might do in the meantime (at the moment I'm closest to Suffolk Downs so do a search on why that might worry me.) If I'm a new owner, with new money, new to racing--I do not want to come in, get a horse, and then oops, he's gone, we buy another one. If you want new blood and new money in racing, it's important to see why that might be unappealing. Heck, my horse lived out most of his life as a kid's hunt seat mount because he was a one-horse stable and his owners made a "emotional" decision to sell him to a hunt trainer rather than keep dropping him even lower (he was a low-level claimer) and run him until he broke as they were being advised by people at the track. They got $2000 for him going to a good home and got out of racing because they just really couldn't work with the attitude that even a small 'hobby-horse' stable had to view a low-level horse as a disposable commodity. There went a couple people who could afford to own racers, but weren't comfortable with the horse is nothing but a business asset and one is the same as any other attitude at the bottom.

As has been pointed out, Europe and the rest of the world does just fine with minimal to no claimers. Obviously it doesn't have to be the ONLY option for horses who can't go in allowance or stakes company and succeed. Handicap. Give weight. There are people who can do that kind of math.

And I cannot concieve of "claiming classes" ever being considered viable except MAYBE at breed shows for very young stock--and you're not going to find any $2500 claimers there. In B, C, and local shows, the majority of those riders are the owners and they aren't competing to make money off the horse in a quick turnover and aren't going to sell. (I could see a class called "horses for sale", as a method of showing off animals that are up for sale, but I can't see any average show owner agreeing to a situation where anyone can go in before the class, put up the money, and walk off with the horse.) In the A shows, a BNT isn't going to have a problem putting a price tag on a horse without a claiming situation--and I really can't see anyone letting a good hunter or jumper or dressage horse go to potentially ANYONE. Or any serious show rider just watching a class and going "Hm, I'll put up $5000 for that horse based on that go" without a vet exam, x-rays, knowing if they'd fit the horse, or anything about them. Even for people in the show worlds where selling horses is their livelihood and they aren't remotely sentimental, the idea of buying and selling totally by chance would be utterly alien and unappealing.

Of course racehorses are business. But the only way the sport is going to survive is to start making it possible for people who aren't either super-wealthy and running the top stakes animals or at the bottom rung treating claimers like trading cards to get into it, have fun owning and racing maybe one or two horses without having to worry that their horse is going to get sold off just because he isn't one of those top horses. It's also about appearances--you talk about a horse being nothing but a business asset or defecit and of course the average person on the street is going to think it's a cruel sport.

[Flypony]

The horse just worked 3/8ths today at GG.I bet she is withdrawn form the sale. I see a NW2 12,500 in the book today for Monday she may show up in that.

[Flypony]

The horse just worked 3/8ths today at GG.I bet she is withdrawn form the sale. I see a NW2 12,500 in the book today for Monday she may show up in that.Race didn't go

[southpoint1]

It is up as an extra for Thursday. We are entering again.

[summerhorse]

Well I really like claiming races, I think they work well. They force an owner to put a rational and reasonable value on their horse, to face that reality with every race, changing the value according to the performances put in by the horse. They force an owner to look at his horse as OTHER people see him, evaluate him with the eyes of others in the industry, without emotion involved. Too many people who own horses do not spend enough time in the realms of reality. I think that horseshows should run with "claiming" classes also. The times I have lost a horse to a claim, those horses have been well sold, I would not have got prices like that for them in a private sale. It happens rarely enough that a horse is claimed, and if you value the horse as a pet higher than you value the horse as a racehorse, the horse is no longer a racehorse, take it home and retire it as a pet... simple. Racehorses are not pets, economic factors and realities must always come into play. If you lose a horse to a claim that you want back, it is usually able to be retrieved at some point, in some manner, if you wish and can afford to do so.


they force an owner to treat a living thing as a disposable commodity. To try and use tricks to keep it, to try and use tricks to dump it when it is finally all used up. This is not good for horses or owners who LIKE their horses and it is very bad for attracting new fans. But very good for attracting animal fanatics (PETA and the like).

[Laurierace]

It is up as an extra for Thursday. We are entering again.

Is this your way of saying that you are the owner of this horse? If so why not save her the trouble of flying all the way to Cali if the horse is going to be pulled from the sale? If not being pulled, do you have a reserve?

[NancyM]

they force an owner to treat a living thing as a disposable commodity. To try and use tricks to keep it, to try and use tricks to dump it when it is finally all used up. This is not good for horses or owners who LIKE their horses and it is very bad for attracting new fans. But very good for attracting animal fanatics (PETA and the like).

Summerhorse, it is possible to both "like" (or love) the horse, and still put a true value on it in a claiming race. It is a dichotomy for sure, but to ask anything of an animal we own is the same moral dilemma. Any time horses are bought or sold, they are a commodity. Have you ever bought or sold a horse? If so, you have treated a horse like a commodity. A horse is property, how we treat it while we own it is a personal decision, and the reckoning of whether an owner is actually a horseman or not. It is common for new owners who love and care for their horses in a pet-like manner to dread the necessity of entering their horse in a claiming race. If the value as a pet exceeds the value as a racehorse to his owner, the horse is retired to be a pet only. Same if it's value as breeding stock exceeds it's value as a racing animal. Both these instances of horses leaving racing are seen. People entering the racing industry have a lot to learn, both about horses, about economics, and about racing. It is different from equine disciplines where the realities of economics are less immediate. Either it appeals to owners, or it doesn't.

Some owners and trainers are well known to be "claiming owners and trainers". They trade horses around about as often as they change their underwear, and with about as much thought or care given to these decisions, in terms of the horse's welfare. But this is not the fault of claiming, this is the way such people are. The same people are present in every equine discipline, they are not ONLY found in racing.

I introduced a friend of mine to racing, breeding and owning, a few years ago. Like many new owners, it was difficult for him to accept the concept of a claiming race. But with racing experience, he has done so. Like many of us when we lose a horse to a claim, he will likely be upset when he loses his first horse through the claim box. But it is part of racing, and has it's strong points too. Racing is something that horses do for a limited amount of time, usually two to nine years out of their lifetime. After that, they are either retired as pets, broodstock, or other active disciplines, or meat, if they have no value for the other disciplines. None of these possibilities necessarily mean abuse for the horse, nor do they ensure good care. They just ARE the possibilities for horses. They were selectively bred for centuries the direct purpose of racing, and if they raced, they fulfilled the intent of their breeder. They were not bred to be pets. It is the versatility and athleticism of the TB that gives him the secondary values of being pets, and other pursuits to owners other than race owners.

One can't be too concerned about keeping members of PETA happy. It is impossible to do so when these people are irrational, and not interested in relationships with animals in any fashion, nor know much about animals themselves, other than making judgements on people and activities that they are not involved with, nor know much about. (Does that sentence make sense grammatically?)

Yes, animals are used by humans, treated as a commodity, sometimes abused, sometimes used up and thrown away as worthless. Other times, animals bring great enrichment to human's lives, and give humans an opportunity to do great and humane things with those animals. They give us the chance to live more fully.

Sorry to hijack this thread, this shoulda been on the claiming thread I suppose, but don't know how to move it now. Not computer literate.

[Pronzini]

Is this your way of saying that you are the owner of this horse? If so why not save her the trouble of flying all the way to Cali if the horse is going to be pulled from the sale? If not being pulled, do you have a reserve?

It's probably not true in other parts of the country but I've done the whole entering game in NoCal and not have the races in the books go for weeks so I interpreted it to mean that the poster has another $12500 claimer and hopes that Miss Abby Kat makes the race go. Been there, done that :)

As for her being pulled, the owners are having a dispersal. They probably want to run her before the sale especially if they expect her to do well. She is after all being sold as a racehorse so personally I wouldn't read too much into the work.

Anyway there's a much more direct way to find out any of this and that is through the consignor.

[summerhorse]

Summerhorse, it is possible to both "like" (or love) the horse, and still put a true value on it in a claiming race. It is a dichotomy for sure, but to ask anything of an animal we own is the same moral dilemma. Any time horses are bought or sold, they are a commodity. Have you ever bought or sold a horse? If so, you have treated a horse like a commodity. A horse is property, how we treat it while we own it is a personal decision, and the reckoning of whether an owner is actually a horseman or not. It is common for new owners who love and care for their horses in a pet-like manner to dread the necessity of entering their horse in a claiming race. If the value as a pet exceeds the value as a racehorse to his owner, the horse is retired to be a pet only. Same if it's value as breeding stock exceeds it's value as a racing animal. Both these instances of horses leaving racing are seen. People entering the racing industry have a lot to learn, both about horses, about economics, and about racing. It is different from equine disciplines where the realities of economics are less immediate. Either it appeals to owners, or it doesn't.

Some owners and trainers are well known to be "claiming owners and trainers". They trade horses around about as often as they change their underwear, and with about as much thought or care given to these decisions, in terms of the horse's welfare. But this is not the fault of claiming, this is the way such people are. The same people are present in every equine discipline, they are not ONLY found in racing.

I introduced a friend of mine to racing, breeding and owning, a few years ago. Like many new owners, it was difficult for him to accept the concept of a claiming race. But with racing experience, he has done so. Like many of us when we lose a horse to a claim, he will likely be upset when he loses his first horse through the claim box. But it is part of racing, and has it's strong points too. Racing is something that horses do for a limited amount of time, usually two to nine years out of their lifetime. After that, they are either retired as pets, broodstock, or other active disciplines, or meat, if they have no value for the other disciplines. None of these possibilities necessarily mean abuse for the horse, nor do they ensure good care. They just ARE the possibilities for horses. They were selectively bred for centuries the direct purpose of racing, and if they raced, they fulfilled the intent of their breeder. They were not bred to be pets. It is the versatility and athleticism of the TB that gives him the secondary values of being pets, and other pursuits to owners other than race owners.

One can't be too concerned about keeping members of PETA happy. It is impossible to do so when these people are irrational, and not interested in relationships with animals in any fashion, nor know much about animals themselves, other than making judgements on people and activities that they are not involved with, nor know much about. (Does that sentence make sense grammatically?)

Yes, animals are used by humans, treated as a commodity, sometimes abused, sometimes used up and thrown away as worthless. Other times, animals bring great enrichment to human's lives, and give humans an opportunity to do great and humane things with those animals. They give us the chance to live more fully.

Sorry to hijack this thread, this shoulda been on the claiming thread I suppose, but don't know how to move it now. Not computer literate.

If people want to treat their racehorses as a business commodity that is fine (well not so much for the horse). If people "get used to it" that's fine too (well again, not so much for the horse!) But people shouldn't have to choose between racing their horses or quitting! FORCING people to put their horses up for sale to race is not "OK" or a necessary part of the game and has already been shown to drive new and small time owners right out of it.

[NancyM]

If people want to treat their racehorses as a business commodity that is fine (well not so much for the horse). If people "get used to it" that's fine too (well again, not so much for the horse!) But people shouldn't have to choose between racing their horses or quitting! FORCING people to put their horses up for sale to race is not "OK" or a necessary part of the game and has already been shown to drive new and small time owners right out of it.


Summerhorse, have you ever actually had a horse entered in a claiming race, or any race as an owner or trainer? Or are you only looking in from the outside of the sport and just imagining how might be? I think that you will find that most people here who love racing and love horses CAN accept claiming as a part of racing, if they have had some experience. If you are a person who does NOT love racing, what are you doing here on this forum? Just raisin' poop and stirrin' the pot? If you wish to learn, if you want input and opinions from racing people, just ask. If you can only criticize without any basis for forming your opinions, then I also will put you on "ignore" like others already have.

A horse getting claimed CAN be absolutely the BEST thing that has happened to a horse, or not. It can go either way. Instead of only looking at it from your own point of view, look at it from the horse's point of view for a change.

Yes, racing is different from other equine disciplines due to this claiming thing that goes on. It comes as a bit of a shock, takes a while for an owner to get used to the idea, to understand it, to accept it as part of the game. Yes, racing in general NEEDS help, needs to encourage new owners to get involved, and needs to do anything possible to recruit new owners, encourage them. This is what race trainers/owners/breeders are DOING here, on this forum, trying to help YOU and people like you, understand this claiming thing. Yes, it can be dissapointing and sad to lose a horse in a claim. It can also be extremely benefitial to an owner, or a horse, to either buy or sell a horse through the claim box. If an owner is so delicate and sensitive and emotional that simply having his horse claimed puts him out of the business perminently, he never was truely interested in racing as a whole, nor understood it properly. "It ain't a sport for small boys in short pants". The highs and lows ARE huge, an owner must be able to ride out both successfully, it's not all roses. There are far worse things than selling a horse to someone else who wants him bad enough to pay the claiming price for him.

[Jessi P]

Yeah, what Nancy said. :winkgrin:

This sure is no game for boys in short pants. This sport is called the sport of KINGS, and at times it really comes down to that.

[Flypony]

Ditto what Nancy says. And you can always claim them back. It's not like they getting claimed is falling into a blackhole. Claiming is part of the game, it's a way to make money. If you all don't like it I suggest you just keep paying those huge entry fees and stabling fees. Let me know if you find a good way to eat one of those ribbons. Until then watch where you enter, cause someone is.

[Rienzi]

"Sport of Kings?" :dead: ! Excuse me as I choke. Where's that puking icon?

[Pronzini]

Triple what Nancy said. I think it should be a sticky on top of that racing 101 thread.

Claiming isn't about losing the horse but spotting the horse so that the horse isn't overfaced. That can happen alot in maiden allowance races and its a shame.

Good horsemen and owners should want the horse to do well for the horse's sake. Sometimes that means dropping the horse down and risking the horse for a tag. Let's face it--you place a horse at physical risk every time you run him. Stack the odds in his favor and try to give him a fighting chance of doing good. That's better for the horse, for the owner and the trainer. If you are not willing to do that, take the horse home and make a pet out of him. I'm one of those people who think a pet racehorse is an oxymoron. (BTW it is much harder to walk that walk when you've bred the horse and watch it take early tottering steps around the foaling stall, but I still think you should put sentiment aside for the horse.)

Incidentally there are all kinds of ways to play the claiming game and a passing interest in poker isn't required but is definitely helpful. :)Some horsemen are almost never claimed off of and get away with bloody murder at the entry box especially running on the bottom. Some of it can be the dark stuff that Hertz likes to write about but it can be that no one thinks they can move one up on this person and running on the bottom usually has a razor thin profit margin even if you are winning. Then there is the whole "strawberry" issue with all racehorses--even the buzz horses like Point Encounter. Celebrated one day, done the next.

[danceronice]

From what I hear about a trainer or two at my nearest track, what I claimed back at the next race has good odds of not being what I owned before. I'd need a vet exam afterwards to decide if it was even still worth racing.

And please, the "don't like it? get out!" attitude is JUST what racing needs. Sport of Kings, my butt. I suggest you hide that attitude when the news crews show up to look around when the racing-ban ballot measures come up. Ask the dog trainers at Wonderland how alienating outsiders for too long worked out when the dog-racing bill came up.

[Jessi P]

"Sport of Kings?" :dead: ! Excuse me as I choke. Where's that puking icon?

I don't mean to sound snobbish, but racing really is a sport for the wealthy. Sure people without money (like me) can play the game but you are limited to a certain sector of the game - FOR PEOPLE WITH LESS MONEY - claiming races.

If you are wealthy you dont need to worry about having horses worth more than the highest claiming price your track offers. Where I race if your horse is worth less than 35-45k you have a claimer. Each horse has a value - that value is roughly 1 1/2 times what that horse is capable of earning tempered by how much it will cost to get (in time - paying a trainer a day rate, plus vet and blacksmith charges, perhaps shipping to another track) to that result. That's my general rule of thumb - for example a bottom $5k horse here earns about $5k for a win.

There are 5k horses that are worth 5k - generally speaking they can win or run 2nd or a good third) and there are those that aren't worth 5k (80% of them). If a horse here is running 4th or 5th it's probably worth about 1500-3500. A horse running 2nd and third is worth what it runs for. A horse that is ready to win that race is worth about 7500 to buy/sell, because you can win the race (5k) and lose the horse via claim (another 5k = 10k) and make a profit. Some folks will tell you (go ahead and claim the horse) because they make more money by running the horse and losing him for 5k than they do if they were to sell the horse to someone for $7500. Paying more for a horse by purchasing instead of claiming means you get to have a vet go over the horse at your expense, a very smart maneuver in a lot of ways.

How much money you have to invest in a horse determines what level of the game you play. If you can only afford to play with the claimers you need to realize that the claiming system puts a numerical value on each horse, the level where that horse needs to run to be competitive. It keeps 5k horses running against 5k horses. One can always enter one's horse safely over it's value to insure it won't be claimed, but that is not a long term solution. It would be great to be able to have "pet" racehorse condition races where owners could run and not worry about getting claimed but I dont know how they could make it work. I sure am open to hearing other peoples' ideas tho. ;)

[summerhorse]

From what I hear about a trainer or two at my nearest track, what I claimed back at the next race has good odds of not being what I owned before. I'd need a vet exam afterwards to decide if it was even still worth racing.

And please, the "don't like it? get out!" attitude is JUST what racing needs. Sport of Kings, my butt. I suggest you hide that attitude when the news crews show up to look around when the racing-ban ballot measures come up. Ask the dog trainers at Wonderland how alienating outsiders for too long worked out when the dog-racing bill came up.

Yeah what dancer said...

And no I don't have a racehorse, I can't afford one. But I do know people who do/did and a bunch of them eventually left because their horses got claimed out from under them if they were good and IF they were able to get them back they often were not the same animal. Big time racing is for the wealthy but really how many of the regular (not those coming in just for stakes) owners and trainers at Beulah, Suffolk, Tampa Bay Downs, Emerald Downs, etc. etc. are all wealthy? Now compared to ME they may be wealthy but I bet most of them are not what I would think of as "rich" in a the horse racing world. If they are they probably won't be there (at cheap tracks) long once they learn the game.

I've read stories of people on Breeder's Lists TRYING to claim or just buy their horses back with no luck. One eventually got back a broken down heap for an outrageous sum even though they were going to euthanize it.

[Pat Ness]

It is very discouraging to hear some of the old time race people being so elitist.

Your sport is going to be gone if you do not find a way to open your minds.

[Acertainsmile]

I dont think it's a matter of being an elitist... facts are facts... If a group does get together and persuade a racing sec to write some different races for "pets", then I'm all for it.

For the record, I dont think opening our minds will save the sport, the economy and pressure on tracks neighboring tracks with slot money is going to be the downfall.

[Laurierace]

Racing is without a doubt the least elitist of all the horse sports. In horse shows, the further you go up the levels, the less its judged on the horse and the more its judged on who the people involved are and what brand of saddle, helmet, etc they have. In racing if you pay $1 for your horse and I pay $1 million dollars I am not going to automatically beat you. Its all about who gets to the wire first, period.
The sport of kings reference in my opinion was a response to people commenting that they didn't want to risk losing their cheap horses in a claiming race. The answer to that is simple, don't run them in a claiming race. If that is the only level they can compete at, retire them and buy one that can compete at the allowance level or above. If a person can not afford a horse that can run at the allowance level or above, perhaps this isn't the horse sport for them OR they need to change their mind about claiming races. Its not like there are no alternatives and they are stealing your horse at gunpoint.

[Acertainsmile]

One option is of course Steeplechase or hunt races....no claiming!

[NancyM]

and IF they were able to get them back they often were not the same animal.

This also is an inescapable aspect of racing. The horse may have been in the same condition even if it was not claimed, and had continued racing or training for his original owners/trainer. Injury can happen at any time, during a race, in training, a single bad step taken at speed, a bad ride from a jockey or exercise rider, getting cast in the stall. In many cases, injury and damage is not a result of the trainer's direct decisions. A trainer can do everything right, can care substantially about the horses in his care and try to act in their long term best interest, sparing no effort or expense towards the continued soundness, health and welfare of a horse, and STILL tragedy and injury can happen. It is not always "somebody's fault" that a racehorse gets injured, and is not in the same condition as it was a few weeks earlier.

There are owners and trainers in the racing industry who are known at the tracks they frequent as those who wring the last drop of juice out of poor unfortunate racehorses, and throw away the empty husk without a care or a thought. This is a conscious decision to do so, a decision to inject failing, worn, stiff and arthritic joints with cortisone multiple times, racing on painkilling treatments, a decision to push through and continue training and racing on slight, starting injuries or inflammations, resulting in further and more extensive injuries that could have been avoided or healed by giving time off to heal first and retraining to bring back to competitive readiness in time. People who participate in this sort of racehorse ownership and training cite short term economic gains, "get the money and get out of the horse before it's career is done, then just get rid of it". That they "can't afford to give the horse the time off". These people have a different view of racing than some of the rest of us. Should one of these trainers claim a horse from you whom you care about, it is best to claim it back on it's next start for a tag to limit the amount of time they spend in this trainer's barn. I'm not going to say that one ideology is "right" and one is "wrong", but they are a personal decision that each member of the race industry makes. I like the long term prospects of keeping a horse sound over a number of years rather than getting as much money as quickly as I can, which carries the higher risk of damaging the horse perminently through pushing him to earn quickly. Not everyone agrees that this is the most economic way, but that's OK, we are not all the same in our attitudes to horses. Our horses live with the decisions the humans make, good or bad, and this observation is not limited to racehorses or racing. Which is a good long term decision and which is a poor one sometimes is not readily and immediately apparent. Time tells which bears out as right or wrong, if anyone cares to keep looking that long.

There are occasions where the rapid earnings and burn out early theory DOES work out best for both the horse and the owner. But I would have to write even more of an essay here to explain these instances for you. My own thoughts are that the truely good horses come by rarely enough, that should you be fortunate enough to find/own one, I like to extend his career to last as long as possible, to extend the number of years of his earning potential and extend my fun of owning him. My decision is whether to use him up quickly, earn $100,000 in a year with him, and have higher risk of damaging him doing it and end his career or life, or earn $40,000 per year for 8 years, with less pressure/fewer starts on him annually. To me, the most economic option is the one I choose anyways, the long term one. Good horses are hard to find, even if you are a KING (in the sport of kings) and have lots of money to spend looking for one. Without lots of money to spend, they are even harder to find, so extending the career and preserving the horse makes even more economic sense to me. Not all people choose the same options as I do.

I have very little sympathy for those owners and trainers who make the decision to use the horse up, then weep when the horse's career or life is over due to these decisions. The decisions are made, YOU made them, live with it, shoot the horse to relieve his pain, don't pass him off to a "rescue" at that late date, taking up a stall that a horse in better physical condition could be inhabiting.

Horses with less than stellar talent can still often win a couple, at lower claiming levels, earn a bit, maybe enough to contribute to their expenses, give their owners the thrill of ownership and the experience of standing in the winner's circle and have their picture taken. Such horses are rarely claimed, it's pretty obvious that they are limited in their earning potential to winning out their conditions only. IF they are looked after in a long term manner that promotes soundness, this horse can actually be worth some money to his owners after his race career is over, and he is sold on to his next career. I find it way more economic to be able to sell this horse to a second career for closer to his claiming price rather than meat price of a worn out husk. So once again, providing care and making decisions in terms of the horse's long term soundness is both in the best interest of the horse AND the owner. But not everyone sees things the same way I do.

Just because someone has different theories about racing their horses does not mean that they are not good people or pleasant people or that they do not have skill as a horseman, they are just people who I would not want to be a horse living in their barn, subjected to their theories of horseracing. They are people that I would not want to put my horse in their care. They can have success at the races, they can make money, they can have good horses in their barns. But they tend to not have old campaigners in their barns.

Summerhorse, if you are interested in racing, find a way to take the plunge and participate. It's not perfect, there are warts, disasters and losses. Horses and people may prosper in victories large or small, or may flounder and perish, much like life itself. Then you will have the first hand experiences needed in order to form valid opinions.

[cloudyandcallie]

Great post, NancyM!

[Rienzi]

NancyM's post is very good. But you certainly CAN have a valid opinion without having to experience everything first hand. To borrow from Will Rodgers, if you are thinking for yourself, you don't have to pee on the electric fence to know it's a bad idea.

[Jessi P]

The sport of kings reference in my opinion was a response to people commenting that they didn't want to risk losing their cheap horses in a claiming race. The answer to that is simple, don't run them in a claiming race. If that is the only level they can compete at, retire them and buy one that can compete at the allowance level or above. If a person can not afford a horse that can run at the allowance level or above, perhaps this isn't the horse sport for them OR they need to change their mind about claiming races. Its not like there are no alternatives and they are stealing your horse at gunpoint.

I'm glad somebody understood what I was getting at. ;)

[summerhorse]

This also is an inescapable aspect of racing. The horse may have been in the same condition even if it was not claimed, and had continued racing or training for his original owners/trainer. Injury can happen at any time, during a race, in training, a single bad step taken at speed, a bad ride from a jockey or exercise rider, getting cast in the stall. In many cases, injury and damage is not a result of the trainer's direct decisions. A trainer can do everything right, can care substantially about the horses in his care and try to act in their long term best interest, sparing no effort or expense towards the continued soundness, health and welfare of a horse, and STILL tragedy and injury can happen. It is not always "somebody's fault" that a racehorse gets injured, and is not in the same condition as it was a few weeks earlier.

Snipped

Summerhorse, if you are interested in racing, find a way to take the plunge and participate. It's not perfect, there are warts, disasters and losses. Horses and people may prosper in victories large or small, or may flounder and perish, much like life itself. Then you will have the first hand experiences needed in order to form valid opinions.

Oddly enough I can form valid opinions using other people's personal experiences as well.

Which is why I will not be getting a racehorse unless I win Powerball and can buy a horse capable of competing at the top levels, however briefly (and retire safe at home). That's about what 3% of the horses running? Or less?

So again we are back to you have to have money to burn to compete at the very top or you aren't wanted if you just want to run the horse you can afford to buy or breed without putting it up for sale. How's that working for racing right now?

[Acertainsmile]

The thing is not having cheaper horses running for a non tag is NOT hurting racing... the lower level claiming races still fill... this is far from the problem that racing is facing.

I dont know how large of a group would be (willing to breed or buy young horses to race)... have them end their careers and being brought home and retired. I'm thinking it's not going to be a very large group, at least not large enough to justify training expenses to run once a month at best. (Remember that this group of horses would ALL have to be able to run on the given day that the race was written for).

[cloudyandcallie]

She's entered tomorrow (the 23rd) at Golden Gate.

[imissvixen]

$12,500 claimer. what does that mean they think she is worth?

[NancyM]

That means that if you want to put up the $12,500 plus taxes and have a trainer to go down for you on the claim, you can own her tomorrow. If she is not claimed for this price tomorrow, what she is worth on sale day may well be influenced by how she runs in this race. It will be her first attempt in other than a maiden catagory, a fair bit tougher competition than winning against maidens at this level. But she won convincingly when she did break her maiden, so they are trying her back at this value level against the tougher competition. It will become apparent if this is where she fits currently. If she runs poorly in this race, when she runs the next time, whether with her current owners or with the buyer from the sale, she may well be entered lower than this. Her price at the sale may also be lower.

If she runs well but does not win, she will still have her condition (non-winner of two lifetime) and it will look like she CAN win at this level, so she may be worth close to this amount. If she wins, and wins convincingly, she may be on her way up the value ladder, having figured out what is required of her as a racehorse, and overcome any nagging immaturity problems, and she will likely be entered higher than this next time out. She will also lose her non-winners of two condition, so she will have to run against tougher horses again next time out. What conditions she will have left will depend on what the track offers. Once she has won out her conditions, she will have to be able to compete against open company to be economic.

[jenm]

She's entered tomorrow (the 23rd) at Golden Gate.

Well, it's been raining here, so maybe she won't like running in this weather. (wishful thinking) I'll keep my fingers crossed that she isn't claimed!

[juliet]

Given how poorly second tier horses have been selling at Fasig-Tipton and Timonium earlier in the fall, if you want to buy her, it shouldn't be bad. Contact the owner directly?

[imissvixen]

I did but they are committed to putting her in the sale. I hope she runs a terrific race and wins by many lengths. I can wait for her to come around again.

[cloudyandcallie]

Miss Abby Kat rallied inside and finished 2nd.

[jenm]

Is there anyway to tell if she was claimed?

[LaurieB]

Is there anyway to tell if she was claimed?

She wasn't claimed. She was beaten half a length and earned $1,940. for her connections.

[imissvixen]

I watched a video of the race. She started out last, held steady. and was more or less driving to finish second. It was a good race. She was game. She lost by probably half a length.

[tbracer65]

I didn't watch the replay yet, but if she came from last this time...this IS a nice filly --- showed today that she can come off the pace or show speed. Also shows she's competitive at that level $12,500 --- at a track on the east coast she'd be competitive higher --- $15k to Alw.

[Flypony]

I went and watched her today. She is an average looking bay filly ,with a pleasant attitude, who looks like she is gonna be a hard knocking race horse. She deserves a chance to continue her career as a racehorse. I do hope whoever buys her keeps her running.

[imissvixen]

I went and watched her today. She is an average looking bay filly ,with a pleasant attitude, who looks like she is gonna be a hard knocking race horse. She deserves a chance to continue her career as a racehorse. I do hope whoever buys her keeps her running.

I agree.

[2enduraceriders]

Reading this thread has been interesting and a learning experience.

I have a couple of novice questions.

Has the filly stayed with the same trainer or has that changed for the last couple of races?

If imissvixen buys her could she not be kept with the same trainer? The filly could be moved east anytime, like warmer weather... :), and after some more wins.

[Pronzini]

Reading this thread has been interesting and a learning experience.

I have a couple of novice questions.

Has the filly stayed with the same trainer or has that changed for the last couple of races?

If imissvixen buys her could she not be kept with the same trainer? The filly could be moved east anytime, like warmer weather... :), and after some more wins.

When she was in Southern California, she was with Jay Robbins of Tiznow fame. In Northern California, she has been trained by Jedd Josephson who was a former assistant of Richard Mandella. These are quality horsemen, known for their patience and prudence, which in part was why the "buy her and save her" stuff was a little much for some of us. Of course, no one can say at this point where she will end up after the sale but I would bet she has had excellent care up to this point.

She's coming down south for the sale (which is in Pomona outside of Los Angeles) but that's not to say the buyer couldn't put her back on a van going North. She seems to be a solid $12,500 horse and the waters at Santa Anita may be a little deep. She also very well may end up at Mountaineer or Philadelphia Park back East or even Sunland Park which has good purses these days.

I guess we will find out next week. I do know she will be one of the few horses in that sale who will essentially sell herself after her last few races. Personally I would be way more worried about the broodmares myself.

[imissvixen]

I canceled my plane tickets. Based on her performance yesterday, my bad cold, and the state of the economy in NC, I am going to assume she moved out of my price range. I would really enjoy having a racehorse but I can't afford to learn the business on the fly right now. The bloodstock agent has all my contact info and my offer in case something goes wrong for her at the sale. But I agree that she has a lot going for her and she should be fine.

[VirginiaBred]

I canceled my plane tickets. Based on her performance yesterday, my bad cold, and the state of the economy in NC, I am going to assume she moved out of my price range. I would really enjoy having a racehorse but I can't afford to learn the business on the fly right now. The bloodstock agent has all my contact info and my offer in case something goes wrong for her at the sale. But I agree that she has a lot going for her and she should be fine.


Well, darn!

I really wanted you to buy her, but I hear you. Keep us posted regardless.

[VelvetNoses]

I canceled my plane tickets. Based on her performance yesterday, my bad cold, and the state of the economy in NC, I am going to assume she moved out of my price range. I would really enjoy having a racehorse but I can't afford to learn the business on the fly right now. The bloodstock agent has all my contact info and my offer in case something goes wrong for her at the sale. But I agree that she has a lot going for her and she should be fine.

Final bid on her was $15,000.

[imissvixen]

Final bid on her was $15,000.

Yeah, I watched. I was qualified to bid but I couldn't get near that price. Hope she goes to good people.

[jenm]

Yeah, I watched. I was qualified to bid but I couldn't get near that price. Hope she goes to good people.

Will you continue to keep tabs on her? I was hoping you would get her!

[imissvixen]

Definitely. She is in my virtual stable -- actually she is the only horse in my virtual stable. I also asked the bloodstock agent if he would ask the owners to put my name and contact info on her papers in case she is ever down on her luck. Don't know if he did that but I will follow up with the next owners and ask them to keep me in mind if things change for her.

It's funny that she sold two days after running in a $12,500 claiming race for $2500 more.

[cloudyandcallie]

She ran well in her last race, rallied well, showed a lot of heart and finished
2nd. So her value increased in racing business.

Had she faded in the stretch, you might have gotten her for a lot less money.

[summerhorse]

Was her reserve met?

[VelvetNoses]

I only logged onto this forum today, but I have been following and enjoying this story from the beginning. It is so nice to read a thread about a horse that captured someone's attention, not because she was running at the highest stakes level, but because she pulled at a heartstring.

As for the $15,000, it does look like she is a solid competitor at the $12,500 level. She could recoup the auction price pretty quickly with another win and a claim.

[imissvixen]

http://www.barretts.com/ViewSale/index.asp

You guys were right. There are broodmares that are no-selling.

[Filly Pino]

One of the following statements is true (go ahead, guess!) :

a) Miss Abby Kat is now owned by Michael Gill and has been scheduled for a myectomy tomorrow morning

b) Miss Abby Kat is now owned by IEAH, will be trained by Rick Dutrow, and is scheduled for Winstrol tomorrow morning

c) Miss Abby Kat is looking forward to those balmy days in Manila and hoping they never put in synthetic tracks

[AppJumpr08]

I'll take option d) none of the above!

[VelvetNoses]

I'll take option d) none of the above!

I agree. I don't like any of the choices.

[summerhorse]

Guessing C

[imissvixen]

Sounds like she is going to be a big fish in a small pond. Good luck and godspeed to her.

And so closes the bizarre story of how one person tried to deal with the grief of losing her racehorse named Abi. I say "tried" because I still feel the grief and I think being really honest with myself it wouldn't have been any different had I acquired Miss Abby Kat though she did look alot like Abi. Thanks to everyone here for the support.

Just so you know, $15,000 (plus some more) that could have paid for Miss Abby Kat went to an endowed scholarship for equine veterinary students at NC State Vet School -- the Abi Normal Endowed Scholarship. It will provide a $5000 annual scholarship to students studying to be horse docs at NC State (as in, if you can't go to college go to State).

Rebecca

[VirginiaBred]

Wow Rebecca. That is AWESOME.

[Laurierace]

Rebecca, that is one of the coolest things I have ever heard! I would love to be in a position to do something like that someday myself. Godspeed Abi, your work here still goes on all this time later.

[shade]

What a kind and generous person you are. Thank You

[VelvetNoses]

Rebecca, wow! You are an amazing person.

Miss Abby Kat would have been so lucky to have you as her owner. I hope her new owners will keep you updated on her.

[Texarkana]

WOW Rebecca! I am speechless. That was so kind and generous of you. :)

[ivy62]

Rebecca- that is one of the most thoughtful gifts anyone can give...It is perpetual and will always give in the memory of a friend.. You may still wind up with her in time. Follow as you always have and she will come home to you. I have faith...

[jenm]

Wow, what an amazing gesture!! Rebecca, you are to be admired. :)

[yeggmen]

Watch the latest run of Miss Abby Kat @ the Santa Ana Park, Philippines:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_S9rV6YywM

[SEPowell]

Sounds like she is going to be a big fish in a small pond. Good luck and godspeed to her.

And so closes the bizarre story of how one person tried to deal with the grief of losing her racehorse named Abi. I say "tried" because I still feel the grief and I think being really honest with myself it wouldn't have been any different had I acquired Miss Abby Kat though she did look alot like Abi. Thanks to everyone here for the support.

Just so you know, $15,000 (plus some more) that could have paid for Miss Abby Kat went to an endowed scholarship for equine veterinary students at NC State Vet School -- the Abi Normal Endowed Scholarship. It will provide a $5000 annual scholarship to students studying to be horse docs at NC State (as in, if you can't go to college go to State).

Rebecca
Wow! That's an interesting turn of events! Following stories like this makes me like people almost as much as horses ;)

[juliet]

You can watch the race!

http://businessmirror.com.ph/home/sports/14727-tribute-to-mayor-bagatsing.html


On Wednesday the Mayor Ramon Bagatsing Memorial Cup II will be held over the 1,700-meter distance with the winner receiving the top prize of P300,000. The runner-up picks up P112,500, while the third and fourth placers get P62,500 and P25,000, respectively.

The runners include commissioner Gerry Espina and Lorraine Uy Wi’s Don Enrico, Fernando Raquel Jr., 55; David Lee’s Fairy Queen, Lord Santos, 53; Hermie Esguerra’s Miss Abby Kat, Karbin Malapira, 54; Tony Tan’s Tiwi Magic, Jesse Guce, 54; and Don Antonio Floirendo’s Traditional, FM Raquel Jr. 54.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEYJu-XANuA

She didn't win--but you can see her from last night.

[imissvixen]

Yikes, that didn't look too good. I couldn't figure out the distance.

She has won some races since she's been there.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

1700m = 8.5f = 1 1/16m

Remember, 200m = 1f = 1/8m, it's easy after that.

[juliet]

She was predicted to be his biggest challenge. It sounds like they are running her alot?

[imissvixen]

That's too long a distance for her. She looked just like she did when I saw her at Del Mar. Out front for awhile and then fades very badly.

There are a bunch of her races on youtube. She does get run alot or at least a lot more than the horses I follow, ie, Zenyatte, RA, etc.

[imissvixen]

This is courtesy of another kind COTHer who has been supplying me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6ZufdgZ7E4

[VelvetNoses]

Watch the latest run of Miss Abby Kat @ the Santa Ana Park, Philippines:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_S9rV6YywM

Looks like she ran again on Sept 4th and won!

1600m = 1 mile
Special Class Division 17

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SqYlUq1jr8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SqYlUq1jr8)

[imissvixen]

She is becoming the RA of the Philippines!

[DuffyAgain]

Just found this thread and all I can say is WOWOW!!!!!

She definitely seems to have become the RA of the Philippines, imissvixen!!!

And, you brought me to tears with your kindness.

Thank you.

I truly hope the filly makes it to more than your virtual stable in the future.

[yeggmen]

A full gate of 14 imported runners, meanwhile, are expected to slug it out in the 2009 Philracom Sapphire I Stakes, the sixth and final leg of the Imported-Local Challenge Series to be held on September 20 at the Santa Ana Park, Philippines.

One other reason many runners decided to join the event is the absence of Syrinx, considered as one of the toughest imported runners in the country today. The horse, owned by Bong Pineda, is reported to be nursing a leg injury.

Among those nominated for the race were Edward Pangilinan’s Batang Tundo, Bienvenido Niles Jr.’s D Vinci, Cesar Avila’s Fierce Fighter, Bernard Guy Godoy’s Hussteria, Ruben Laureano’s Irene’s Fantasy, Tony Tan’s Indy’s and Tiwi Magic, Roland Lim’s Lim’s Expensive Toys, Hermie Esguerra’s Miss Abby Kat, Mooney Money, Pierre Niles’s Santeria, Don Antonio Floirendo’s Traditional, Trinity Moon and Santa Clara Stockfarm’s Ziraz.

Source: http://www.businessmirror.com.ph/home/sports/15683-mooney-money.html

[yeggmen]

Miss Abby Kat lost steam going to the homestretch and lost miserably to Mooney Money in a Handicap race @ Manila Jockey club: :sadsmile: :sadsmile:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qMDS3HpiDA

[VelvetNoses]

Miss Abby Kat lost steam going to the homestretch and lost miserably to Mooney Money in a Handicap race @ Manila Jockey club: :sadsmile: :sadsmile:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qMDS3HpiDA

Thanks for posting.

The track looked sloppy - maybe not to her liking that day? She'll do better next time!

YouTube also has a video of Miss Abby Kat winning the Sapphire I stakes on September 20th (Mooney Money finished 4th in that one).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-p4U_6pWSQ

This article came up when I did a Google search -- there are some nice photos from that day.

http://jennyo.net/gogirlracing/?p=1163


Please let me add that our thoughts go out to all the people in the Philippines who have been affected by the typhoon, rains and mudslides. Here's hoping that everyone is able to rebuild and recover.

[danceronice]

I like that Miss Abby Kat, who was a "meh" middle of the road horse, is now in that article a "classy American import".

Maybe she just doesn't like mud...hopefully the Phillipines will not get much more of it! They could use a break, weather-wise.

[rcloisonne]

The first 1/4 in 17.94!!!???? Impossible!

[Drvmb1ggl3]

The first 1/4 in 17.94!!!???? Impossible!

Of course it's impossible. However the first fraction is not a 1/4m. Look at the distance of the race.

[rcloisonne]

Of course it's impossible. However the first fraction is not a 1/4m. Look at the distance of the race.
And you even pointed that out earlier. :o

[slvrblltday]

I know I am way late to this party, but when everyone was talking about her value did no one notice she is a granddaughter of the recently-reigning highest priced stallion in the world (Storm Cat)? A young, winning granddaughter of Storm Cat is not likely at risk for a ride across the border.

[danceronice]

I know I am way late to this party, but when everyone was talking about her value did no one notice she is a granddaughter of the recently-reigning highest priced stallion in the world (Storm Cat)? A young, winning granddaughter of Storm Cat is not likely at risk for a ride across the border.

Don't kid yourself.

[smilton]

I know I am way late to this party, but when everyone was talking about her value did no one notice she is a granddaughter of the recently-reigning highest priced stallion in the world (Storm Cat)? A young, winning granddaughter of Storm Cat is not likely at risk for a ride across the border.

Yep I just found out a winner of 200,000 that was shipped in from over seas to race in the US got a ride across the border after bowing and chipping a knee. There are sons of Storm Cat standing in back yard farms for less the 500 so that really doesn't mean much.

[slvrblltday]

Yep I just found out a winner of 200,000 that was shipped in from over seas to race in the US got a ride across the border after bowing and chipping a knee. There are sons of Storm Cat standing in back yard farms for less the 500 so that really doesn't mean much.

That's a bit different - used and unsound. This mare was young, sound, winning, racing fit, and with loads of black type. I've both followed high-end auction (F-T, Barretts, Keeneland) trends since 1999 and have also attended KB auctions. I think the fact she DID sell for 15k speaks for itself.

[smilton]

He sold for 50,000 three months before he shipped. I was at the Keeneland sale and saw amazingly well bred sound horses not get bids. There is always the possibility of falling through the cracks.

[RainyDayRide]

It's not unusual for a well bred horse to fall through the cracks ... just read Joe's daily logs at www.tbfriends.com to see some of the sire's names of ones that wind up discarded.

[slvrblltday]

Yes, there is always a possibility.

[danceronice]

And honestly these days I'd rather NOT see Storm Cat--he's everywhere, six-figure price tag or no.

Just having a flashy pedigree is no guarantee a horse is not headed for a bad place these days

[Blinkers On]

And honestly these days I'd rather NOT see Storm Cat--he's everywhere, six-figure price tag or no.

Just having a flashy pedigree is no guarantee a horse is not headed for a bad place these days

I sooooooo agree. if they don't have knees, they have breathing problems... if they don't have breathing problems they are nuts... waaaaayyyyy too much storm cat!!

[yeggmen]

Ms. Abby Kat heads the Golden Girls’ field which will fight it out over 1,750 meters this Sunday @ Manila Jockey Club. Other entries in this event are Weder Weder Lang, Traditional, Fairy Queen, Santeria, Best of Both Worlds, Tiger is Ready and Fierce Fighter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_Kw0m9StOc

[WinterTriangle]

Frankly, I find it terrible to watch a valiant horse overfaced, giving her all and struggling home with dirt in her face because the owner is being romantic or delusional. Thoroughbreds know when they lose. That's how you break their hearts. That's how you hurt them.

Truly a poignant paragraph. I read it 4 times, and choke up.

And yet, you're also a realist, very practical in your advice.

This is one of the most moving topics I have ever read on an internet forum, beginning with the OP's willingness to follow a "feeling", to the forum members cheering her on and offering advice and help.

I haven't gotten to the end of the topic yet, so I don't even know the outcome, but it's certainly as good as any great american novel in terms of wanting to savor the read but also find out the ending!

As just a casual reader here (just a race horse fan) I can only say that there are some very special kind of people on your site.

In this case, I am hoping the girl gets her horse. Even if somebody else out on the World Wide Web sees the horse as "profitable", if I won the Lotto tomorrow, I'd send the OP a check and say "bid as much as you have to." :) You don't need a *reason* to want this horse, even though you explained why you do.:D

Okay, gotta read to the the last posts now........:sadsmile:

[juliet]

She did not have loads of black type close up.