Lesson Barn Etiquette Question [Archive]

Czar

Jan. 3, 2009, 02:24 PM

lcw579

Jan. 3, 2009, 02:36 PM

Mom is an idiot.

There I said it. All kids, no matter how small, should learn how to bring a horse in from a field and tack them up. I get that there is more liability to be considered nowadays with the wee ones - but that is what teenage barnrats are for - they can help the little ones and serve as role models.

Do they do this all the time or was this a one off thing? IMHO if she was running late she should have called so you could have brought the horse in if it was a situation where a group lesson was going to be affected. If nobody but poopsie was inconvenienced then I don't see why Mommy Dearest had any reason to complain.

Delaneythehorsegirl

Jan. 3, 2009, 02:37 PM

No, I think it is completely approriate. Ever barn I have ridden at I had to get my own mount and tack him/her up myself. If I made the decision to come 5 minutes before my lesson then I suffered the consequences.

I don't believe that you are a real rider until you know how to tack up and lead a horse. You need to politely explain to her mother that this is what you believe and if you are late to your lesson then there are consequences. If the mother doesn't agree with this then she can find a more suitable lesson barn.

SillyHorse

Jan. 3, 2009, 02:40 PM

cranky

Jan. 3, 2009, 02:42 PM

At my barn you are expected to be at the barn at least 1/2 an hour before the lesson so that you have time to retrieve, groom and tack up your horse. It's just the expectation. If you're late, well then you're going to be starting your lesson late. I don't think it's unreasonable at all.

danceronice

Jan. 3, 2009, 02:45 PM

Getting them from the field depends on the kid, their age and size, the number of horses, size of the field, how far they have to lead from the barn, the gates, the manners of the horses out in the field, etc. No, there are some circumstances where I wouldn't send a kid to go get a lesson horse. Especially if there's more than one or two horses in the field. Horses out at pasture can be unpredictable especially when there's more than one.

Tacking up is another story. If you've been riding long enough to know how to tack up, you groom and tack up yourself. The barn where I started lessons when I was seven kept the lesson horses in if they were going to be used but once you had the hang of it, unless you were a REAL teeny tot you were grooming and tacking yourself.

RoyalTRider

Jan. 3, 2009, 02:51 PM

While I would expect a rider of this description to arrive in time to groom, tack and be mounted before the lesson time, I would tell the rider if she were expected to leave time to bring her horse in. I don't think there is a problem with it, but I would have let her know (which you may have). If she has been with you for four months, has the horse always been in his stall?

I don't think it's fair to call the mother an idiot if she didn't know. :no: If this mother has had no prior involvement in horses, and for quite a while has been taking her daughter to lessons and never had to leave time for her to bring the horse in, she may well have had no idea that time ever had to be left to bring in the horse. There is a lot we don't know about this situation- information we should probably know before we declare the mother an idiot. :winkgrin:

Of course five minutes is cutting it too close, but if all of a sudden there is the extra time needed to bring the horse in, that just adds to the problems. Depending on the horse and the field, that can be 5-15 minutes. Perhaps the mother knew she was losing ten minutes of the lesson due to tardiness, but not an extra five due to something that had never happened? It's great if that is the expectation- but make sure it is the expectation before expecting it. :)

Rescue_Rider9

Jan. 3, 2009, 02:52 PM

If she has been with you for 4 months has she ever had to go in the field and get her horse? I took lessons at a barn where all the horses lived out side.. and we all gray Arabians and from the second lesson i had to go get my own horse. Talk about a pain in the rear! LOL But if the horses have always been in the barn then i see the moms point. Its not the safety factor (atleast I dont think) its the isnt this your job point. And if this is the case and it is not your job then you should have told the mom clearly that No it isnt your job to retrieve the horse it is the girls. Retrieving means from his stall or his field. And its not your fault she was running late.

cranky

Jan. 3, 2009, 02:52 PM

Well, I'm going to be a voice of dissent. If I have a lesson scheduled at a barn where I'm using one of their horses, I expect the horse to be in the barn when I arrive for the lesson. I would expect to groom and tack up, but not to have to walk out into a field to get the horse.

I can see your point, but in the example given, the rider showed up 5 minutes before the lesson. Either way she was not going to have enough time to properly be ready. Also, if she's been riding there for 4 months, surely by now the mother and child both know what is required to be prepared for the lesson. It's hard to believe this policy was suddenly sprung on them out of the blue.

GreystoneKC

Jan. 3, 2009, 02:54 PM

At both my own barn and another barn I taught at, riders were expected to be at the barn 20-30 mins before their lesson to fetch, groom, and tack their horses. Even the wee ones did this, although I would always be right by their side for all of it (it's never to early to start learning good horsemanship!). If a rider gets to the barn late, too bad, so sad - unless as someone mentioned, they call and I *choose* to do them a favour and help get them started if I am not busy, which really is never, lol.

If someone like Sillyhorse showed up and my barn and declared "I expect the horse to be in the barn when I arrive", I would say, "Then I expect you to hand me your checkbook for an unlimited bank account - would you like a groom while you're at it, Princess?" I'm not saying Sillyhorse is like that at all, but seriously, if any student ever said that to me, I would laugh at them and be like, um, no, dear, go get your boots dirty.

horsegirl123

Jan. 3, 2009, 03:15 PM

Not knowing the situation it would be hard for me to past judgement. For me when I get a new student that has never ridden before we spend a lot of time learning to groom and tack up until I'm comfortable with them doing it on their own. Yes I will bring the horse for them with the student by my side to observe. If they have been riding awhiile and are capable of bringing the horse in then it becomes their job. I feel there is more to riding then just being handed a horse all tacked up.

Everyone runs late sometimes and maybe that is more what she was frustrated with or maybe not. Maybe she expects everything handed to her but she is not doing her daughter justice with this attitude IMHO.

Czar

Jan. 3, 2009, 03:47 PM

Sorry...I should have clarified - this girl has had to go out to get horses before just not every week as she hasn't always ridden the same horse and sometimes the horse she rides is being used in the previous lesson. But again, it's not always the same and the students are aware that they need to arrive with enough time beforehand to fetch/groom/tack and that they will not always be riding the same horse so never to *assume* they can just show up and hop on. I think the mom was just annoyed b/c she was already running late.

I also ALWAYS put a note on the board telling the students to bring a handful of grain with them so the horses/ponies will learn to expect a little treat and be willing to be caught.

Again, maybe I am too old school but I feel like even learning how to approach a horse properly (NOT right up to their face with the halter stretched out in front of you like a noose) is a part of it. I would never send a newbie out to the field alone and I wouldn't send someone who doesn't know the horse out to the field alone but after I go with them the first time and they are of a certain age and experience level; I do expect them to fetch the horse themselves. I too would not be too keen on someone who showed up at my place for lessons and told me they wanted the horse in the barn when they arrive.

Jsalem

Jan. 3, 2009, 04:12 PM

I think you ask a really good question. My answer would be, "It depends." Are you working FOR someone, or are you an Independent Contractor doing your own thing? Then, it's a matter of: What kind of program do you have? What kind of barn is it? What services does it offer? What are the lesson policies?

If the barn doesn't have a policy, it's time to make one. If you work for someone else, it's their call. "Students are to arrive XX minutes before their class time in order to catch, groom and tack their horses." I wouldn't just assume that your students KNOW they have to catch their horse. The student (or mom) was probably just inconvenienced that day by the extra work. On that day, they didn't have the time. If it were a set policy, there would be no question. If you're late, it cuts into your lesson time.

I could argue that it could be more efficient and safer to have the horses caught up for the students. You could schedule back to back lessons (which would mean more profit) and also avoid a huge liability of having novices out in a herd of horses. Again, it just depends on your barns policies.

Oh, and as for the student wishing to have the horse in the barn waiting for her: that could be an opportunity to tack on an extra $5. A good business person would probably smile and say, "no problem!"

Come Shine

Jan. 3, 2009, 04:33 PM

I think the mom was just annoyed b/c she was already running late.

Bingo.

Maybe I am also old school but when I started riding, going out and getting the horses from the paddock was a bonus because that meant you got to spend more time with them. Already having the horse tacked up and ready to go was a bit of a downer when I was that age.

Now, however, if someone offered to get my horse from the paddock, groom and tack up before my lesson for $5 - sign me up!

intothesunset

Jan. 3, 2009, 05:19 PM

The fault is completely on the rider. As long as she had the foreknowledge that she would have to catch and tack up her own horse, she should have known that 5 minutes before her lesson wasn't going to cut it, and she needs to manage her time accordingly. Worst case scenario, she could have called one of her barn mates on her way, explained that she'd be late, and ask her barnmate if she would catch the horse and stick it in the cross ties for her.
The real lesson that all students need to learn early on is that they are not there to learn how to horseback ride, they are there to learn horsemanship. Yes, riding is part of the equation, but to truly be a good horse(wo)man, one needs to learn how attend to all areas of equine management. Part of this is learning how to manage your time. Being on time and well prepared is a sign of maturity, discipline, and respect to your trainer. Of course none of us will be on time all the time, but we can at least try for 90%:). By the way, this is not just a riding skill, this is a life skill. Mom should thank you.

Lilykoi

Jan. 3, 2009, 05:38 PM

I can see it both ways. Personally, here in the midwest, a lesson horse would be in before a lesson and turned out afterwards. Its a lot to ask a wee one to deal with turnout blankets and possibly mud ball horses. That being said, my kids are quite disappointed if they don't get to do everything with their horses. However, if the student knew ahead of time that bringing the horse in would be expected of her, it is unfair for her mother to be upset with you. Maybe she should be irritated with the kid for not reminding her of the time needed.

RockinHorse

Jan. 3, 2009, 05:39 PM

I also ALWAYS put a note on the board telling the students to bring a handful of grain with them so the horses/ponies will learn to expect a little treat and be willing to be caught.

Personally, I would have a problem sending kids unsupervised out into a pasture with grain unless there is only one horse in the pasture since the horses can get a bit pushy if they always expect people to come bearing treats.

That being said, I agree with Jsalem. I think a defined lesson policy regarding arrival time and responsibilities can save everyone some frustration and misunderstandings.

kellyb

Jan. 3, 2009, 05:46 PM

Kids should be there in plenty of time to be able to catch and tack up horses. Where I ride, there is an older working student there 90% of the time to help you get a horse if it is dark or the horse is a difficult catch.

Decide on a policy and make it known, whether you put it in your lesson contract, or hang up a list of rules somewhere.

enjoytheride

Jan. 3, 2009, 05:46 PM

I have been in a few lesson situations. In one I would show up about 30 minutes before, one time I showed up 30 minutes early, ran around a field catching the horse, then spent 40 minutes chipping mud off of it, then had a 20 minute lesson because I was late. I went a few times after that but that was it.

In another lesson barn I went from showing up with the horse tacked, groomed, and ready to go to having to catch, groom, and saddle the horse myself. I don't care but it needs to be clear either way so I can come prepared.

If I need to catch a horse from a muddy field then it needs to be ok for me to lesson on a horse with muddy legs and mud in his tail. I'll clean everything I need to put tack on but asking me to bath or spit shine a horse is unreasonable in that kind of barn. If I'm going to get mud up to my knees then someone else needs to catch the horse for me.

Guin

Jan. 3, 2009, 06:37 PM

Of the many, many lesson barns I've been associated with, it is always stated in writing and usually posted in about 10 places that you need to be there a minimum of 1/2 an hour before your lesson begins to get your horse ready. Sometimes the horse is in a stall, sometimes the horse was in the far end of the field a quarter-mile away. If the kid's been riding there for four months, then she was clearly just late and should have called to say so. Why is it such a big deal that you have to walk 200 yards to get your horse? Geez. :rolleyes:

Jumper6252

Jan. 3, 2009, 06:40 PM

As long as I've been taking lessons I was always there 30 minutes before lesson and I always had to get my horse out and tacked up

spina

Jan. 3, 2009, 07:05 PM

What's the etiquette, you ask? The etiquette is to have expectations clear ahead of time, ideally in writing in the lovely handout you give (or mail) to each student when they first inquire about lessons. If they are a minor, then the info goes to the parent as well.

I kind of feel that part of the whole riding experience is having to get the horse yourself. The largest "herd" we have is 7 in one huge field and none of our horses are problem types.

Well, if that's the way you feel you need to make it clear before people take a lesson with you. Personally, I feel a student would need to prove that they are capable of dealing with separating a horse from a herd before they are given either that responsibility or priveledge.

Again, I sort of feel this is a part of being around horses, no? I've had kids come from barns where the horses are tacked up, waiting in the crossties and after 2 years of riding, they still do not know how to properly tack up or lead a horse :confused:

What does hiking out to the back 40 to retrieve a horse out of a herd have to do with learning how to tack up and lead? Besides, it may be a PART of being around horses, but it may not be the PART this family was aware of or would choose right now.

I didn't think it was unreasonable to expect an experienced teenager who knows the place to have to get their own horse from the field.
[QUOTE=Czar;3774320]
Unless she has a lot of experience in horse care and handling of all the horses in that herd as a herd - I think it is unreasonable. Honestly, If I owned the barn I would only want my employees doing that job. If I were a student, I would kill for the opportunity and priveledge - assuming I had been dropped off for the afternoon and had all the time in the world to go messing about in a field of horses - not frantically delivered by a harried mother trying to fit my 30 minute lesson into a crowded afternoon schedule of all my siblings activities.

bamboozled

Jan. 3, 2009, 07:16 PM

I wasn't really sure what to say as there is no real rule at the barn regarding this.

Now is the time to establish one. No matter how long this kid has been riding, unless she owns, or is leasing a schoolie, then I would imagine liability dictates that the horse/pony be brought into the barn. Check your insurance.

The separate issue here is that arriving 5 minutes before a scheduled lesson start time is not enough time, period.

Mom will have to learn that this is not like dropping your kid off at the hockey rink or the soccer field for practice. Stuff happens.

JenEM

Jan. 3, 2009, 07:20 PM

Hmm, I've never been at a lesson barn where students were expected to retrieve their own horses from the field, for what I assumed were liability and safety issues. They were (and are, at my current barn) expected to show up with plenty of time to groom and tack up.

Yes, the student should have arrived earlier, so as to be able to groom and tack up her mount, but I would be leery of sending students out to catch horses, especially if they're being sent out with handfuls of grain on a regular basis :eek: That's asking for someone to get run over.

Now, if the lesson-taker is riding their own horse, it's a different matter entirely. It's my problem to slog out through the muddy clay to catch her.

lesson junkie

Jan. 3, 2009, 07:29 PM

The boarders at the barn where I lesson (I trailer in-30-45 mins before lesson time) aren't allowed to go into the field to get their own horses because of liability. The barn workers go with them. I thought it was a little overprotective-I'm not getting escort to get my own horse out of a field, for Pete's sake. But, many of the boarders are first time horse owners who have never been around horses before. Maybe I overestimate people's horse sense!

S1969

Jan. 3, 2009, 07:31 PM

I agree that "it depends". It depends on many things: expectations, supervision, distance, etc. I've taken lessons at a few different barns each with different rules and I have to say I HATE having to catch horses in pastures/paddocks. I have horses at home so I "get it". Turnout is good....learning to deal with horses on the ground... also important. But when I pay for a lesson I want to be able to get to the barn (30+ minutes early) and be able to get my horse and myself ready without chasing, cajoling, having to walk through a foot of mud at the gates, and then chipping mud off hooves and legs. [I can do all that at home for free.] ;)

The last barn I lessoned at required everyone to retrieve lesson horse from the paddocks, most of which were nearby, but one was large and further away. All the lesson horses learned what "students" looked like and many of them refused to be caught, even with bribes. The ones in the big pasture could get worked into a stampede. One nasty pony would turn her butt to you and kick with both back feet. My 8 year dd was also a student and I just could not deal with the worry and the hassle.

So...it depends. I certainly never mind turning a horse out AFTER I ride. The barn I am at rotates turnout based on the lesson schedule and I like that. Lesson horses are almost always in when you arrive (and if not, someone else will grab them for you).

Scott Free

Jan. 3, 2009, 07:38 PM

when I pay for a lesson I want to be able to get to the barn (30+ minutes early) and be able to get my horse and myself ready without chasing, cajoling, having to walk through a foot of mud at the gates, and then chipping mud off hooves and legs.

ditto. If that was a requirement I'd find a different barn.

SoCalChick

Jan. 3, 2009, 07:39 PM

At the barn where I ride we are expected to show up 30 minutes early to retrieve/groom/tack up the lesson horse. However, when I first started out there, I arrived 10 minutes before my first lesson (blame it on getting late out of work and Los Angeles traffic) and my instructor was very forgiving but told me nicely to try and make it out earlier (which I do now :))

I wouldn't be too happy if I had to get a lesson horse from a muddy field, and had to spend 40 minutes scrubbing off the mud, and as a result have to start my lesson late. Yes, horses should get turned out, and yes, they do get muddy, but if the instructor knows that so and so horse has a lesson at so and so time, make sure the horse is in his stall.

When I had my own horse back home (Jakarta, Indonesia), we had our own grooms. Yes, it was nice to have a groomed and tacked up horse, but I felt something was missing so I ended up usually grooming my horse myself (with all the grooms looking and snickering because this crazy girl was actually grooming and tacking up her own horse, oh the horror!).

Trixie

Jan. 3, 2009, 08:37 PM

I think it depends. The important thing is to spell out your expectations clearly prior to signing up riders for lessons, if you haven't done that, establish a policy now and stick to it.

It also depends on the majority of your students and the program that you run. For example, if you have a barnful of working amateurs, chances are they aren't going to HAVE an hour and a half ahead of time to spend time chipping mud off your horse. Understand what your demographic needs and act accordingly (for instance, a barn w/working ammies might offer a tack up service for an additional $10 and do quite nicely).

If you let me know ahead of time what your policies are, I can make an effort to follow them. If you're disorganized and policies and scenarios are consistently changing, then it's going to become very frustrating for us both.

TrotTrotPumpkn

Jan. 3, 2009, 08:43 PM

I've had it both ways. As I have my own horse I get him. Which is good, because I guess I am one of the few that doesn't have a problem catching him (grain or not).

I used to ride at a big lesson barn and they had the horses in stalls before the lessons. The turnout was VERY far away, lots of schoolies together, and in the winter it was very icy. We still groomed and tacked up. If the barn owner or trainer doesn't keep it safe then I think it is fair they get the horses.

It is all about expectations. If the student is expected to do something, knows of the expectation and fails to meet it then she was incorrect.

I also think if the person is new to the barn and especially new to riding
(even if they are an adult) then expecting them to go into a herd of seven horses and catch one (honestly all chestnuts look the same :-) is not fair and is intimidating...but that's not the OP's case.

zahena

Jan. 3, 2009, 08:48 PM

I think retreiving the horse from the field is maybe a little too much for the reasons previously mentioned. However, you're completely right about knowing how to groom and tack your own horse. Gimme a break, they should know how to do this. If the girl wants her horse groomed, tacked and waiting for her, find another barn.

I, personally, am not a fan of having a horse ready to go. How long is that horse standing around fully tacked? How big of a diva does one need to be? IMO, that's someone who just wants to say "I ride" not "I'm a horseperson". That time with the horse is a great way to form even a small relationship and know what they'll be like under saddle.

Personally, I wouldn't be suprised if they were either a) barn hoppers, b) don't stay with you too much longer or c) make a hairy scene in your barn. I've only been doing this a year but I see the warning signs from previous experiences.

FlightCheck

Jan. 3, 2009, 08:55 PM

When I had my farm, your lesson time started at the assigned time.

The beginners used part of their lesson time to groom and tack up. When they became proficient, they were allowed to come early and groom/tack up under the supervision of a barn worker, thus using their entire hour for riding. After, they reversed the process under supervision.

But the horses were in their stalls waiting, not out in pasture.

horsegirl888

Jan. 3, 2009, 08:58 PM

Either way, 5 minutes isn't enough time, so the rider/parent were late regardless.

At the barn I ride at, we are expected to catch and tack up the horses that we will be riding, and we are always at least 30 minutes early. The people I ride with are all competent and experienced enough to do so, and most of us have our own horses in addition to riding our trainer's horses sometimes. The younger students have their horses caught beforehand and waiting in stalls, but they tack up also with the help of a trainer or older student. If the weather is bad, our horses will usually be in also.

The only time I have been late, I called to let the trainer know (it was unavoidable) and it just so happened that the horse I was riding had been used in the (walk/trot) lesson prior to mine, so it turned out okay.

I definitely do not feel that asking a student who has enough experience to be safe to catch and tack up his/her own horse is too much.

skatepixie

Jan. 3, 2009, 09:03 PM

I've been at barns where you had to tack up, barns where you weren't allowed to tack up, and barns where you had a choice. The barn I'm at now offers you a choice, but beginners and itty bits are helped and kids tack their own during summer (during the school year its understandable if they have say, a 3pm lesson and get out of school at 2.30 so they need the horse tacked). It varies a lot.

Personally, I think its important that people know how to tack even if the barn is more full service.

However, it is important that the Standard Operating Procedure is clear to all students so that they don't make wrong assumptions. If students need to be there 30 min before their lesson to tack up and everything, they should be told. In the non-horsey world, a 2pm appointment means be there by 2, and people often make the assumption that a riding lesson is the same.

S1969

Jan. 3, 2009, 09:16 PM

I'm sure it's overkill to post again...but I wanted to comment that "tacking up" and "catching your horse and tacking up" are totally different expectations, at least in NY where the weather is variable. Every student needs to be able to tack up independently and it doesn't take long for even the little ones to be able to do this, although it takes them longer.

But catching a horse in a paddock (especially with more than one other horse, let alone 7) and all that might go along with that - deep mud [over the top of my paddock boots!], horses refusing to be caught, bringing in the wrong chestnut gelding in the green blanket - etc. I think that is a very different expectation. And one that I am not unhappy not to have to deal with, frankly. Still, depending on what has been agreed on....could be acceptable as long as you know that's the deal (and plan appropriately - extra time, muck boots, etc.)

ReSomething

Jan. 3, 2009, 09:58 PM

As long as you have made it clear through word and deed what the policy is, that students will have to allot half an hour to catch and groom, the mom was in the wrong and should find a barn with a policy that works for her.

I will tell you that as a veteran "hiker" there are so many things that can go wrong and make the half hour early not nearly enough - clever and wily herdmate dives out through the gate as I was hopping around in the muck requiring collection of said wily herdmate, bring horse in from mucky paddock only to discover thrown shoe after knocking off the huge mud ball that is the foot, injuries that aren't immediately apparent until you go to groom and remove the blanket. Can't find horse at all, that one was a good one, horse had been shifted to different field. And some of those fields were a good 10 minute walk from the barn. All this would be par for the course if the horse were mine, but as a working person who is horseless, it can be rather like renting a defective rental car. I only have so much time in the day.

Currently I ride in a discipline in which it is customary to have one's horse (school or personal) saddled and bridled and presented to be ridden. My stirrups are adjusted if necessary by the instructor, the horse is held while I mount and dismount. I also pay 25% more for half the time, every minute of which is working. No chatting on the rail with buddies because there aren't any. It makes my life a whole lot easier in some ways, BUT, the written policy is riders shall arrive 15 minutes beforehand to be ready on time for their lesson. Ten minutes late and the lesson is forfeit without refund, all lessons are payable at the time of the lesson (if not in advance).

whbar158

Jan. 3, 2009, 10:12 PM

I am surprised so many people are against having to go get your lesson horse. Many of the lesson horses where my horse is boarded live outside, very few are hard to catch. yes the fields are muddy. Even the little ones must go catch their horses and are accompanied by and older barn rat or the BO and learn how to catch a horse that is out with other horses. If horse IS being a pain about getting caught, the instructor will try to find a horse already inside for you or you might ride one that is already in the lesson before you. No not all the mud has to be off their legs, and as long as you get clean where the tack goes if you are running late. It is expected you clean them after you ride though. Also many time if you call and tell her you are running late she or one of the barn rats will bring the horse in and clean it or will assign you a horse going before you. Now if the field is really big and really far away then I would expect it to be somewhere close to the barn. Like a paddock outside the barn. Many of the kids out at the barn my horse is at love this, and until they are experienced and older they always have a buddy out in the field with them. It is a lesson barn, not a nice full service barn that happens to have a few schoolies. Completely different places (and prices most likely!)

Also working adults are different from children, it is likely as an adult you have already paid your dues and you do have less time! Children need to learn to work harder. I know way too many that stuff just gets handed to them or they have to do very little work and expect more.

galwaybay

Jan. 3, 2009, 10:53 PM

Personally, I would have a problem sending kids unsupervised out into a pasture with grain unless there is only one horse in the pasture since the horses can get a bit pushy if they always expect people to come bearing treats.

That being said, I agree with Jsalem. I think a defined lesson policy regarding arrival time and responsibilities can save everyone some frustration and misunderstandings.

Totally agree w/ this post... and will chime it with it depends on the type of lesson program your barn is offering.. if you include some type of "horsemanship" training (meaning more than leading to mounting block, get on). I would think that most of the time, and particularly in the winter months - it would be nice to have the horses in the barn for a lesson... many lesson kids are not prepared w/ muck boots to catch horse in mud; might not be confident to know what to do when every horse but the one she needs begs for a treat - some can get aggressive - even if they are being friendly... My horse will pretty much approach anyone in the field - assured any treats are for him ( he is and has been on treat restriction for about 4 years - not working ha ha ha)

TSWJB

Jan. 3, 2009, 10:59 PM

at the barn i lesson at, we are expected to retrieve the horse, tack it up, ride and then put it back.
they do employ helpers. who try to help supervise the tacking and untacking. but most of the time they are for the little kids.
i have trudged through muddy fields to find horses that i actually wasnt even sure it was the right horse. they have 40 horses! i remember once they assigned me a horse named jr and no one knew exactly which field he was in and i was racing around muddy fields trying to find a dark bay with no markings! great! you know how many of those there are!
the farm is really good though. if you call ahead that your stuck in traffic,they try to retrieve the horse for you and help tack the horse up. i call them the speed tackers! but they are not always available so if i am late i am trudging through fields and just late for my lesson.
lately i have been riding one horse consistently that lives inside! its quite nice to just open the stall door and the horse is there all nice and clean.
but for the most part, you are expected to get the horse from wherever he lives, so if you are assigned a horse that lives outside, out you go to the field to get it.
i dont think the OP is being unreasonable.

Quin

Jan. 3, 2009, 11:00 PM

Well, I'm an adult ammy, and my trainer is at a big lesson barn. So sometmes I trailer my own horse in and sometimes I ride a schoolie.

All students are asked to come 1/2 hour before their lesson time starts, to groom and tack up. Sometimes a student will be asked to go out to a pasture and catch their schoolie (boarders are always responsible for catching their own, although they can call ahead in an emergency). I usually don't have a problem with that.

But if it takes me 40 minutes to catch Wile E. Coyote Schoolie because he doesn't wanna play today, my lesson time had darn well better not start until I am tacked up and ready to go, because it is NOT my fault that we are now running late. And in bad weather, or when the mud at the gate is deeper than my paddock boots, I do expect the horse to already be in. Not saddled, not groomed, but indoors. The trainer posts her lesson board each morning, and when the weather is poor the barn rat on duty has the job of bringing in all the horses that are going to be used that day. I think it's a good business decision on the part of a trainer. If I'm going to show up and find that in order to ride, I first have to get soaked to the skin and ruin my boots and breeches, I may just decide that it's not worth riding that day. I lose my lesson and the trainer loses my money, so nobody's happy.

Equestryn

Jan. 3, 2009, 11:05 PM

When I started riding at the age of 7, yes the horse was in the barn waiting. I however did the tacking (rather my father did the tacking) so I was always there at LEAST 30 minutes before hand. If I was late into the ring, I wasn't getting any extra time to make up for the time that I was late due to the fact that it would offset all of the lessons for the day and that wasn't fair to anyone else.

As I got older, I was able to go get my own horse. If I knew beforehand who I was riding and I knew that they were a pain to catch, I'd show up an hour early, just incase. I agree that you're not a true equestrian til you can properly catch, groom, tack and lead your own horse. I think you're ABSOLUTELY correct in your opinion. Maybe a rule should now be set. Ask that it be noted that all riders should arrive at least half an hour prior to their lesson. If there is some reason why this rider can't arrive that early, then an exception could be made. Otherwise, they should show up in a timely manner.

Good luck!

indygirl2560

Jan. 3, 2009, 11:48 PM

A barn I took a couple lessons in LA when I was 9 or 10, had grooms for everything. They wouldn't even let me put the saddle on the horse! I agree with you that riders should be able to get the horse, tack it up, and cool it out by themselves. Because what happens when that person goes to ride with no one around to help? I go to a high end show barn with grooms, but everyone at my barn knows that they get their own horse and take care of it, including its tack and stuff. The grooms are pretty much only there to get certain horses tacked up and cooled out for the trainers, so they can have more time training the horse, and even that only happens on days where the trainers have to work multiple horses back to back. And even at shows, you pay a lot extra to have a groom take care of your horse for you. I think that every true rider should be able to be completely independent as far as caring for their horse before and after their rides.

BAC

Jan. 4, 2009, 12:38 AM

I rode at a variety of local riding schools as a child, and the horse was always tacked up and ready for the lesson, someone always took the horse from us when the lesson was over. These were not fancy barns at all, that just seemed to be standard procedure in those days. I was thrilled when we finally started riding at a place that allowed us to tack and groom the horse ourself, but even then it was an "invitation only" type situation for those who were especially interested and we earned extra riding time and lessons that way, although we also had "ground lessons" when the weather was bad, where we learned about grooming, tacking, etc.

workl8

Jan. 4, 2009, 12:52 AM

You are right, Mom is wrong.

That being said, you can't take being right to the bank. Whether we are in the horse business or any other business, dealing with difficult clients -- especially in this economy -- is part of what we need to do. I'd agree with those above me who suggest putting the rules in writing and posting them.

Then, annoyed Mom may be less willing to act put out.

jaslyn1701

Jan. 4, 2009, 07:17 AM

Let me preface this by saying that I didn't start taking lessons until the age of 50. But, all the kids in my barn (except the rank beginners) get "their" horse from the pasture - if they are uncomfortable, someone will go with and help and to their own grooming and tacking up - makes for nice conversation time with the pony. By doing that, I learned the horses themselves in a better way - who was pushy, who was sweet, etc. I also learned not to go out to catch a horse with visible treats in my hand - mobbed. So, my chunk of carrot goes in the pocket of my breeches - gets given when we get outside the pasture gate. The horse knows I have it, knows when he/she will get it and all is good (they also tend not to try and wander off while I am relatching the gate (lol). And I am always at least an hour early for my lesson (don't like to be rushed) so if Dobbin is a bit muddy/dirty, I have time to take care of it.

But then my trainer has taught her horses not to behave badly in the field - there is no kicking out, no running away - they stand to be approached - that's a huge difference - manners.

copper1

Jan. 4, 2009, 07:33 AM

Extreme Chaos

Jan. 4, 2009, 08:52 AM

I don't think I would send a child out in a field to catch a horse, but grooming and tacking up is good for any rider.
When I was horseless, I loved being able to spend extra time with the horse I was riding.
Maybe "mom" thinks her princess shouldn't have to clean a horse!!!:o

asanders

Jan. 4, 2009, 09:59 AM

I wasn't really sure what to say as there is no real rule at the barn regarding this.

It sounds like the rule is 'have your horse ready for your lesson on time', which seems pretty simple and logical to me. Getting there 5 min. before the lesson won't cut it no matter what.

Just out of curiosity, was this a private or group lesson? were the other students on time?

PineTreeFarm

Jan. 4, 2009, 10:07 AM

I've never been at a barn that required a client to catch a horse and bring it in before a lesson.
In most cases the client was not allowed to tack the horse and in some cases was not allowed in the barn under any circumstances.

Seems odd that a client would have wander around a field looking for a horse. Unless supervised how would you know they even got the correct horse?

Too many insurance red flags.

asanders

Jan. 4, 2009, 10:15 AM

I've never been at a barn that required a client to catch a horse and bring it in before a lesson.
In most cases the client was not allowed to tack the horse and in some cases was not allowed in the barn under any circumstances.

Nice for you, but the 'get your own' plan is hardly uncommon. More importantly, it is clearly the established policy at the OP's barn, and the student should know better than to get there so late.

Cita

Jan. 4, 2009, 10:19 AM

It really, really depends on the situation/setup.

Was the student/parent wrong? Yes - in that they showed up late. I have always been expected to arrive 30 minutes beforehand to ready a schoolie before a lesson - that is perfectly reasonable. If the horse is dirty, 20 minutes to clean, 10 minutes to tack and adjust, no problem.

But IMO there is no excuse for requiring students to go out into a large field and pick out their lesson horse (whom they may or may not be able to easily recognize) from a big field and a big herd of horses. Especially since catching/finding the horse can be a hugely time-consuming and unpredictable endeavor. Requiring students to allow 1+ hours to tack/prepare before the lesson so they won't be late if they have to catch their horse? That, IMO, is just not okay.

Small paddock? Fine. Large field? Not so much. Honestly, there is NOT that much to be learned by having to bring a horse in from the field. Forgive me, but that sounds like laziness in not wanting to bring the horses in yourself. You could just as easily argue that "part of the whole riding experience" is mucking stalls, or getting up at the crack of dawn to feed, or unloading and stacking hay bales. Are lesson students expected to do that as well? If so, there's nothing wrong with that (if they know what they're getting in to), but it's certainly not a traditional lesson program.

Here's my experience with "catch it yourself" barns... I once rode at a barn where all the horses were turned out in one *huge* field - no separation fences or paddocks or whatnot. When you arrived for your lesson, you were frequently told something like, "Go get Horse A. He's the bay in the Rambo blanket." So you trudged out (often through many inches of mud, across slick ice, etc.) and looked off into the distance until you saw something that looked like a bay horse in a blanket. You would try to determine *which* bay in a blanket was the horse in question, make a guess, and then splash/slide your way further across the field until you were within reach of your suspected mount. Then you had to attempt to catch him - sometimes this is easy, sometimes not.

Once you made the long trek back to the barn, feeling victorious in your identification and capture, you were frequently treated to the trainer's admiration... "What are you doing with Horse X?!!?!!! I told you to get Horse A!!!! Are you BLIND? Now you're late for your lesson! You better hurry up!!" :mad::mad::mad:

I agree with the below poster:

Well, I'm an adult ammy, and my trainer is at a big lesson barn. So sometmes I trailer my own horse in and sometimes I ride a schoolie.

All students are asked to come 1/2 hour before their lesson time starts, to groom and tack up. Sometimes a student will be asked to go out to a pasture and catch their schoolie (boarders are always responsible for catching their own, although they can call ahead in an emergency). I usually don't have a problem with that.

But if it takes me 40 minutes to catch Wile E. Coyote Schoolie because he doesn't wanna play today, my lesson time had darn well better not start until I am tacked up and ready to go, because it is NOT my fault that we are now running late. And in bad weather, or when the mud at the gate is deeper than my paddock boots, I do expect the horse to already be in. Not saddled, not groomed, but indoors. The trainer posts her lesson board each morning, and when the weather is poor the barn rat on duty has the job of bringing in all the horses that are going to be used that day. I think it's a good business decision on the part of a trainer. If I'm going to show up and find that in order to ride, I first have to get soaked to the skin and ruin my boots and breeches, I may just decide that it's not worth riding that day. I lose my lesson and the trainer loses my money, so nobody's happy.

Smiles

Jan. 4, 2009, 10:19 AM

I think this is a liability to the barn. What if some gets seriously hurt going out there to get their lesson horse??? I'm all for people learning but its the staff/barn owners responsablilty to make sure staff handle horse in turnout situations... All I see here is a lawsuit waiting to happen!!!

charismaryllis

Jan. 4, 2009, 10:24 AM

i guess i've run the gamut--one barn where the student arrives and is handed a horse, fully tacked and ready to go-- (didn't particularly like this--i want, at the very least, to be able to check the saddle and pads and make sure the bridle's adjusted properly--i'd get scolded at that barn for checking over the tack before mounting. too bad--i don't trust someone else to make sure the girth is tight. didn't ride there long) --to a barn where i started out with the horse in the stall and saddled, and after showing some knowledge about catching/grooming/tacking, ended up having to arrive 45 mins early to cut the horse from the herd, get out the carpet beater to get the mud off, and then groom and tack. all the while, the price for my lessons was going up, not down. i found that rather distateful; i was dong more work, and paying more for the privilege. (that barn went out of business.)

current barn is a big operation where everyone's brought in at the same time and turned out at the same time, and the kids are usually very good about making sure a horse is groomed/saddled at least 1/2 hr before he's due to go in a lesson. i still arrive 1/2 hr early to swap stirrups and bridle (and chat and hit the ladies' and pet cheeks, etc.) but if i were to get hung up on the way, i'd still have the major work on the horse done by the time i got there. if the barn wanted me to chase down the animal and do all this myself, i'd be fine with that, but we'd have to talk about knocking about $10 off the lesson fee.

whbar158

Jan. 4, 2009, 10:25 AM

I am still surprised that so many people are against a teenager getting their lesson horse out of the field who has been riding 4 years. I have not been to that many lesson barns, but all 3 I know you had to go get your horse, it is part of riding. I was 6 and 7 going out and getting horses, but I also had my own horses at home and knew how to do it. Many beginners buy horses, what would they do if they had never had to get a horse out of a field, then had to go get their own? Even if they had been riding for 4 years.

tikidoc

Jan. 4, 2009, 10:48 AM

I think it is reasonable to expect a rider to be at the barn 30 minutes before a lesson. I have no problem with them having to go out and catch the horse, assuming they have the appropriate level of experience and the horse is readily catch-able. If the horse is a pain about being caught, or if the rider will have to be knee-deep in mud to catch the horse, the horse should be brought in. If the horse is so covered in mud that it would take more than 30 minutes to get the horse clean enough for the expectations of the barn for riding (be it totally clean or just clean enough to tack up), then some of the de-mudding should be done before lesson. I do not think it is reasonable to make a 30 minute rule, then penalize someone who gets there 30 minutes before the lesson and then has to chase a horse around a muddy field and spend another 30 minutes getting mud off and is not done in time to start the lesson at the scheduled time.

The policy must also be posted and made clear at the time of the first lesson. If the expectations are not clear, it is unreasonable to expect people to "just know". Even if they have been riding for a while. Reading this thread, there are many different expectations - many think the horse SHOULD be brought in. So if we can't agree here, we certainly should not expect lesson people to know, especially if they have ridden at other places that may have different policy.

Where I board, I am expected to have my horse in and tacked up at the start of the lesson (my horse). If I am running late, I might call and ask for the BO to grab him if he is close to the gate (before he heads back to the back 40) but if she does not have time, oh well. If she has another lesson scheduled after mine, then mine is short. If not, we usually just go over. But I do not board in a busy lesson barn. The trainer is also my friend and I do favors for her too (lends he my trailer when needed, etc.).

My 8 yo daughter who is fairly new to riding also takes lessons there, and bringing in, grooming, and tacking up her pony is part of the lesson. She gets the pony with the trainer or a teen "barn rat". But she also a) is not big enough to do that stuff on her own, and b) does not yet have the stamina for a full hour lesson anyways. I want her to understand from day one that having a horse is much more than getting on and riding.

PineTreeFarm

Jan. 4, 2009, 11:37 AM

Nice for you, but the 'get your own' plan is hardly uncommon. More importantly, it is clearly the established policy at the OP's barn, and the student should know better than to get there so late.

Depends where you are.
On Long Island for example, the 'bring in your own' would be classified as uncommon, in fact it just doesn't happen. Ever.
The discussion is about the policy. My experience is different from yours.
How sad for you.

mbarrett

Jan. 4, 2009, 12:53 PM

OK, I didn't read all the posts, so I'm probably repeating what others have already said.

At the barn I used to be at, a teenage groom would bring the lesson horses in from the field before lessons started. It was a safety/liability issue for the BO. She really didn't want novices going out into the horse pasture without proper training and supervision.

Some of the students tacked up their own horses and some did not, the groom did it for them. However, if they were late for their lesson, tough, the lesson started w/o them. If they were 20 min. late, they missed out on that 20 min.

A lot of the kids wanted to help bring horses in, so the groom would usually take one or two students out to the horse pasture to help bring horses in. The barn owner taught the kids the correct way to catch a horse, put the halter on, etc.

Personally, it's great that a student wants to learn the whole shebang - catching horses, leading them in, grooming, tacking up, etc. It's all part of learning horsemanship.

However, we also knew that there were some parents/students who wanted to pull up and have their horse tacked up and ready to go for them. Hey, it was them who was missing out on horsemanship. Those students usually didn't last very long and quit as riding lessons conflicted with dance, piano, soccer, ballet, etc., etc., etc.

woops

Jan. 4, 2009, 12:56 PM

I see this from so many angles.

Let's see the client side---- Well maybe they are in a rush hmmm understandable. Client do you have a cell phone???? Hmmmm maybe client
should have called if they were going to be so unprepared.

5 minutes before a lesson ---- Where is the respect for the horse or trainer???

If a rider takes riding as important or serious then the thought " Maybe I should call ahead mom"
That is not too much to expect out any youth .

Now for the trainer - I know things are crazy and hectic and unpredictable at the barn -- but the barn I go to 70+ show horses--- A circuit -- KNOW don't even think to be rude to the horse or trainer. Is my trainer scary ???-- no but you always know where it is at.
And if she doesn't inform you - someone else will.

For the Mom--- I feel she is responsible for the whole scenario.
If the child gripes --- it is because you patted her and so it is okay baby , whine more whine more. If the mom gripes she is just teaching the child to blame everyone else for they lack of planning.

So my final thought is POOR Horse ands get firm with a smile!!

I may get attacked for this but I witnessed some young riders who act as if they are doing everyone a favor by riding.

FillySire

Jan. 4, 2009, 02:19 PM

We generally have the lesson horses in for their riders. The students are expected to groom and tack themselves. I don't think it is fair to expect kids to go out into a muddy pasture and then be expected to have a soggy mud ball cleaned sufficiently for their lesson without arriving a coupe of hours ahead! I also don't want students going unsupervised into a field to catch a horse. No matter how well behaved they can be out there, it is also one of the msot dangerous places to be, even if you are very experienced. Having the horses in also smooths out my day as the riders are more likely to be ready on time.

This is how the riding school operates where my 8 year old daughter takes lessons. I am a non-horsey father who helps with tack up and if you saw how pathetic I was in the stall, you definitely would not want me going to get your horse out of a field.:eek: However, in the summertime, we are required to turn the horses out at night. I guess the trainers don't think we could screw that up.:) Some of the parents complain about having to do this, but I see it as just another part of the riding lesson. IMO, learning to handle a horse on the ground is just as important as handling one in the saddle.

Ajierene

Jan. 4, 2009, 02:56 PM

Where I rode in high school, all school horses lived outside 24/7 - no blankets. Horses were mostly in their field until caught by student. Student arrived, gathered horse, cleaned, tacked and went to lesson. If student was late and arrived a half an hour after lesson (all group lessons) started - student got to pay for an hour lesson while receiving a half hour lesson.

Exceptions:

Horses difficult to catch (only one or two and mostly the ponies) would be caught by either the teenagers volunteering or the volunteers would at least help.

Older beginners would go out with a volunteer the first few times, until they are comfortable. All students would start out their first few months on the same, beginner safe mount. They would learn the basics without having to learn a different horse's 'buttons' every week.

Younger kids (10 and under, beginner through intermediate) would either have their horse in (rank beginner), or at least go out with a volunteer. Sometimes they would stand at the gate and hold the end of the lead rope or actually lead the horse with the volunteer right there. The volunteer would also help tack up and in the case of rank beginners would walk next to the rider during the lesson. Usually the real young ones starting out would have an hour total - including tack up time. They do not have the attention span for an hour lesson.

If the horses were exceptionally muddy, it was OK to brush off the 'important parts' (under saddle, girth area, bridle area, pasterns, etc.) before the lesson and finish the brush off after the lesson. This is somewhat unusual though and the instructor really only let those she trusted to actually finish the job after the lesson.

I see no problem with getting horses out of fields, but our fields were small with mostly only about 3 to a field, of varying colors (not generally more than one bay, chesnut, gray, in the field) and/or varying markings. Enough that people rarely mistook one horse for another. Horses were fed in the fields, so they rarely tried to rush out of the gate - what was out there other than work?

We did have a problem with one horse that like to jump the 4' fence along a row of paddocks until he found the one he liked, but he wasn't a beginner horse so someone trying to catch him knew he may be in another field.

goeslikestink

Jan. 4, 2009, 05:01 PM

I teach at a lesson barn a few days a week and have come across this problem a few times...I have my own personal feelings about what is acceptable but was curious to hear others' opinions.

I had a mother today who was annoyed that her daughter had to go to the field to get her own mount and so was late tacking up for her lesson (they arrived 5 minutes before their scheduled lesson time). This was a teenaged girl who has ridden for 3 or 4 years and has been riding with us for approximately 4 months. I wasn't really sure what to say as there is no real rule at the barn regarding this.

ridden for 3/4 years and been at your barn for 4mths -- and shes a paying client and you expect them to get the horse -- and not complain

they are a paying cliient the horse should have been ready and waiting
for them
this is a ridden lesson not an unmounted one
having no rules in a barn is dangerous and unproffessional ettiquette
no rules no proper tutuition in my book and no insurance

The beginners are different b/c tacking up is a part of their lesson so there is someone with them right from the get go.

why is this so different to some one whos only been at your yard for 4mths
this to me owuld also be a novice a beginner

I kind of feel that part of the whole riding experience is having to get the horse yourself.

after you have tuaght to catch it with a supervison at no time would i expect anyone to catch a horse for a lesson as they are unprictable and anything can happen

The largest "herd" we have is 7 in one huge field and none of our horses are problem types. That being said, horses are animals and animals can be unpredictable so nothing is foolproof. Again, I sort of feel this is a part of being around horses, no? I've had kids come from barns where the horses are tacked up, waiting in the crossties and after 2 years of riding, they still do not know how to properly tack up or lead a horse :confused:

insurance and public liability and have you or do you understand health and safty

if one trians or own a riding establishment it is there duty to make sure all are safe
and never puts any one in a potentially dangerous situation unsupervisedby qulaifed member of staff such as going out in to the field to catch a horse -- they arnt paid and arnt covered by any insurance
so if anything happened you could be deem liable as you told them to go get it

We are reasonable of course...if the lesson is after dark, the school horses will be brought in or at least up to the barn paddocks and the kids always have someone with them. I didn't think it was unreasonable to expect an experienced teenager who knows the place to have to get their own horse from the field. Maybe I am too old school and maybe I am not thinking enough of the liability issues.....thoughts?

no your not thinking------- check your yard is insured for starters as like i said no proper rules to me means lack of

SillyHorse

Jan. 4, 2009, 05:12 PM

If someone like Sillyhorse showed up and my barn and declared "I expect the horse to be in the barn when I arrive", I would say, "Then I expect you to hand me your checkbook for an unlimited bank account - would you like a groom while you're at it, Princess?" I'm not saying Sillyhorse is like that at all, but seriously, if any student ever said that to me, I would laugh at them and be like, um, no, dear, go get your boots dirty.
I don't think anyone said anything like that to anyone, and yes, I believe you did say I was like that (see bolded text). Fortunately, reasonable reasonable here believe, as I do, that retrieving a school horse from the field should not necessarily be part of a lesson.

867-5309

Jan. 4, 2009, 06:22 PM

My gut is that the mom was late and on her last nerve probably because of unknown causes of arriving late- could be circumstances well within, or well beyond her control.

Personally I take on the responsibility of the lesson horse being ready on the dot when the lesson begins so the rest of the day's lessons start on time & have a tack up helper on back to back to back lesson days. Riders have the option of retiring the horse from exercise at their own pace and get their horsemanship/ground time in. If their horse is being used again right away I'll assign them another horse/task.

In this economy you've gotta accomodate every single lesson you 've got sensitively and professionally in hopes of retaining the client, maybe a reminder communique re: tack up one on one so what's expected is clear would do the trick? Good luck.

RockinHorse

Jan. 4, 2009, 06:23 PM

More importantly, it is clearly the established policy at the OP's barn, and the student should know better than to get there so late.

Actually, I believe the OP has stated that there is not an established policy at the barn thereby causing a problem

Originally Posted by Czar
I wasn't really sure what to say as there is no real rule at the barn regarding this.

Jessi P

Jan. 4, 2009, 06:31 PM

For whatever my $0.03 is worth, when I was taking lessons the horse or pony would at least have already been brought inside from the field. They were not necessarily groomed but at least they were in the stall and dry - altho one place did routinely groom (vaccuum) the lesson horses ahead of time. That was nice. :winkgrin:

FWIW IMO bringing a horse in from a field is not part of the lesson that you are paying for. Sure, no one minds doing it once in awhile, but to routinely have to go drag your lesson horse out of the field would get old after the first 2-3 times.

GreystoneKC

Jan. 4, 2009, 06:49 PM

I don't think anyone said anything like that to anyone, and yes, I believe you did say I was like that (see bolded text). Fortunately, reasonable reasonable here believe, as I do, that retrieving a school horse from the field should not necessarily be part of a lesson.

For the record, I took that bolded text that you commented that no one said directly from your own post. They were your own words.

If I have a lesson scheduled at a barn where I'm using one of their horses, I expect the horse to be in the barn when I arrive for the lesson.

If that's not what you meant by saying that you "don't think anyone said anything like that to anyone" then I guess I stand corrected. And actually I'd say that there is great deal of people on both sides of the fence for this one. Many of us, like myself, believe it IS the job of the lesson student to get their horse from the fields in a safe manner and many others seem to think the students should not have to fetch the horses or that due to potential liabilities or difficulties they do not make catching the horses easy. I wouldn't say either side is more "reasonable" than the other as I consider myself to be a very reasonable person. And I still stand that if you showed up at my barn and informed me that you would NOT go get your horse from the field (not that you have never had to, but that since that was my policy you would), that I would tell you to find another barn (even in these tough economical times I don't need any princesses in my barn). I will add, however, that all of my lesson horses are in medium-sized paddocks with only 1-2 horses to a field a short walk from the barn and all are easy to catch. If there was a different situation, I would consider different situations.

Cookiewoo

Jan. 4, 2009, 07:08 PM

I knew two children personally who were kicked in the head and died when getting their own horse out of the pasture. I would never allow any child to get an unknown horse out of a pasture situation for a lesson.

Quin

Jan. 4, 2009, 07:19 PM

I will add, however, that all of my lesson horses are in medium-sized paddocks with only 1-2 horses to a field a short walk from the barn and all are easy to catch. If there was a different situation, I would consider different situations.

DingDingDing! Reading over everyone's comments, I think this is the real dividing line. Those (like me) who think the horses should usually be inside waiting seem to be at larger lesson barns with a big herd in a big pasture. Those who say "it's no big deal to go grab the horse from the pasture" mostly appear to be talking about taking one from a small group in a smaller, nearby pasture or turn-out paddock.

Where I ride, the stall boarders' horses are in the semi-private turnouts. The schoolies and a few pasture boarders are all in a big 20+ acre field way out back with half a dozen shelters to hide in, plus the pond to go swimming in (yes, I have heard a barn rat run back in and call to the trainer "Who else do you want to use for the 3 o'clock group because I can't get Bob out of the pond?"). And I, too, have come in with the wrong horse: I have since learned that when sent out in wintertime to get a bay with no white feet that I need to look UNDER the blanket to check whether I have the mare or the gelding.....:o.

FindersKeepers

Jan. 4, 2009, 08:00 PM

When I was taking lessons in a school, I LOVED showing up a half hour early, grooming and tacking up my own horse, and was genuinely disappointed when the horse I was going to ride was already being used and I didn't get to have that time.

That being said, if a school is going to require the students to get the horse ready themselves, they need to set that expectation up front. Beginners were to arrive a half hour before their lesson, and older barn kids would teach grooming and tacking up, and be around for help if needed. Once able to groom and tack up, we were always told that we should arrive for our lesson at least 15 minutes beforehand to tack up, and if we were going to be late, we could call and someone would make sure the horse was at least groomed before your arrival... but that was in the rules, and expected up front.

This situation the OP is posting about isn't black and white... you don't have any rules in place, so you can't have expectations. Write up some basic guidelines/rules, post them, and then you can be annoyed when a mother throws a fit.

Cita

Jan. 4, 2009, 08:34 PM

I don't think anyone is arguing that expecting students to arrive 30 mins. early to groom/tack is unreasonable. In fact, I'd wager that's the norm at 95+% of lesson barns.

The question is, is it reasonble to expect students to spend another 10-???? minutes on top of that finding, catching, and bringing their lesson horse in to the barn? (And is that even what's going on in this situation?)

We still don't really know what kind of setup the OP is talking about.

The largest "herd" we have is 7 in one huge field ... if the lesson is after dark, the school horses will be brought in or at least up to the barn paddocks...

This sounds like a pretty big operation to me, and it sounds like bringing the horses in from the "huge field" could be a pretty involved process.

So no, the student shouldn't have been late, and no, the parent shouldn't have been complaining... but there's a distinct possibility that no, you shouldn't expect them to fetch the horse, either. ;)

saultgirl

Jan. 4, 2009, 09:19 PM

I think sending out a student to get a horse from a herd of seven is a big liability issue, unless you are directly supervising.

I also would want them to bring a dressage whip into the field with them, not a handful of grain!

To say the student has been riding for 4 years, isn't much, if their experience is limited to grooming/tacking up/riding.

Edited to add: it's annoying when people are late, but I find that to be a completely separate issue. I can get a relatively clean horse groomed and tacked up in less than 10 minutes if I need to (I've offered to hustle when lessons ahead of mine were cancelled last minute, to save my instructor from having to stand around and do nothing for 30min).

Linny

Jan. 4, 2009, 09:35 PM

The place where I learned to ride expected those with some experience to brush and tack up. They had back to back lessons starting at 4:30pm to 7:30 or even 8:30 some nights. They had night help who showed up at 3 or so and who made sure the schoolies were presentable, but students were still expected to brush them. (Schoolies were not kept outside.) The night help kept things moving along in the stable so the instructor could focus on the ring. Obviously for an advanced group, less help was needed but for beginners they'd check proper use of tack, check girths and make sure boots etc. were on right. They also helped move "lesson 2" into the holding area, mount up and stirrups adjusted etc while "lesson 1" was wrapping up.

I agree that it's important to learn to groom and saddle up etc but I'm not sure that sending beginners out to catch horses in fields or even to put on the tack, unsupervised is a great idea. I imagine that without help in the stable area, that lessons are very slow to get underway as the instructor may then have to chek the tack etc of 3 or 4 ponies for a group lesson.

asanders

Jan. 4, 2009, 10:30 PM

Actually, I believe the OP has stated that there is not an established policy at the barn thereby causing a problem

The way I read it, the OP posted because she felt uncomfortable when the mom got annoyed because she didn't have a firm policy to go by. But, in the later posts she indicated that getting your horse (from wherever --sometimes in, sometimes not), and getting it ready has always been expected at this barn (i.e., there has never been a staff groom to do this for you).

If you know there is a possibility you will hve to get your horse out of a field, and you show up with only 5 minutes to get ready, I think that puts you in the wrong. No good argueing the policy points.

However, on the barn side, this situation highlights the importance of having clear policies, on what is expected (of both staff and rider), and what is allowed (insurance issues may influence).

Silver Snaffles

Jan. 4, 2009, 10:46 PM

You know, I was pretty proud the day my trainer tossed me a leadrope and said " Go catch Ollie and tack him up and give me a yell when you are ready to start the lesson".

It meant he recognised that I wasn't some snobby rich kid who was worried about trudging through the mud to get a horse and clean it up, and that he recognised that I can and like to do everything myself.

Call me crazy, but since not having my own barnfull of horses to clean up after and groom and spend time with, I love cleaning a mud or dirty horse up to show clean. I like to scratch my lesson horse in their itchy places, i've always had my own, and feel weird turning up to a horse ready to ride.

Tell the kid to buck up and get ready and ride.

S1969

Jan. 4, 2009, 11:01 PM

It meant he recognised that I wasn't some snobby rich kid who was worried about trudging through the mud to get a horse and clean it up, and that he recognised that I can and like to do everything myself.

Call me crazy, but since not having my own barnfull of horses to clean up after and groom and spend time with, I love cleaning a mud or dirty horse up to show clean. I like to scratch my lesson horse in their itchy places, i've always had my own, and feel weird turning up to a horse ready to ride.

Tell the kid to buck up and get ready and ride.

So do you wear your paddock boots in the mud? Or do you change? And how about picking those feet out with mud up to the knees. Do you have a towel to wipe off the horse, or do you have to wipe your hands on your breeches? Seriously.

The barn I lesson at encourages all the lesson kids to hang out all day on Saturdays after their lessons. They can groom, hand graze, help other students tack up, etc. It's a great way for kids to learn these great skills without trying to fit it in before the lesson. So they can get their old jeans and muck boots on, hang out with the other kids and really learn.

Dragging a muddy horse out of the pasture and frantically trying to get it and yourself ready to ride isn't *really* learning horsemanship.

foursocks

Jan. 4, 2009, 11:11 PM

Figuring out how to catch a horse or a wily pony was part of my education as a horsewoman. It was the norm for most barns where I grew up, and one quickly learned which horses needed extra time to be caught.

I have found that it has been a useful skill for me to have- but for a lot of people it isn't a useful skill because it isn't the norm. Where I am now the horses are in fields of two and none of them are hard to catch, schoolies or boarders. My own horse is a cranky bastard and he comes when I call! Lesson people who ride schoolies are expected to go get them, little kids with help if needed. Again, however, they are in small fields of two and not a single horse in the barn is hard to catch- most will come to the gate.

My trainer doesn't expect anyone to come in looking spotless during mud season- he expects the worst of the mud knocked off, hooves picked, tack put on correctly. If he expected otherwise, the horses would be inside for lesson people.

Once again people have managed to turn something which is of course going to vary from barn to barn, situation to situation into a moral issue. It isn't. It is different for each barn and therefore each barn should have the expectations and rules clearly posted so there isn't any confusion. This is common sense!

asanders

Jan. 5, 2009, 07:19 AM

people have managed to turn something which is of course going to vary from barn to barn, situation to situation into a moral issue. It isn't. It is different for each barn and therefore each barn should have the expectations and rules clearly posted so there isn't any confusion. This is common sense!

:yes:

Ashby

Jan. 5, 2009, 07:37 AM

At the barn where we ride and board, it was for many years the policy to send students out to get their own horses from the paddocks next to the school ponies' barn. Then we had two unpleasant incidents: a child was kicked in the head, and a mom, an experienced horsewoman, was also badly kicked in the abdomen. Either kick could have been fatal. Both of the culprits were quiet, gentle horses who were not being handled inappropriately. But horses are horses. For liability reasons, the policy is now that the student workers will bring assigned horses in, and then it's the student's responsibility to groom and tack up. All horse-handling must be done only when the student is wearing a hard hat.

Most lessons take place late in the afternoon or early in the evening, when light conditions are low and horses are a bit spookier than at other times. It's just not worth the risk of lawsuits.

goeslikestink

Jan. 5, 2009, 07:43 AM

goeslikestink

Jan. 5, 2009, 07:46 AM

So do you wear your paddock boots in the mud? Or do you change? And how about picking those feet out with mud up to the knees. Do you have a towel to wipe off the horse, or do you have to wipe your hands on your breeches? Seriously.

The barn I lesson at encourages all the lesson kids to hang out all day on Saturdays after their lessons. They can groom, hand graze, help other students tack up, etc. It's a great way for kids to learn these great skills without trying to fit it in before the lesson. So they can get their old jeans and muck boots on, hang out with the other kids and really learn.

Dragging a muddy horse out of the pasture and frantically trying to get it and yourself ready to ride isn't *really* learning horsemanship.

some yards do but a member of staff is also there to supervise and educate
but again students doing bhs exams are also there on hand so each person has a buddy

RoyalTRider

Jan. 5, 2009, 08:09 AM

You would try to determine *which* bay in a blanket was the horse in question, make a guess, and then splash/slide your way further across the field until you were within reach of your suspected mount. Then you had to attempt to catch him - sometimes this is easy, sometimes not

This triggers memories! :lol: I once was headed to a huge field mounted on what I thought was my assigned mount when, just before I picked up the pace, my instructor came jogging towards me with a horrified look on his face. "No! That is NOT the right horse!" Turns out I was riding an extremely large, highstrung flight risk. :lol:

Hunter/JumperMom

Jan. 5, 2009, 08:38 AM

between myself and my daughter we have taken lessons at maybe 6-7 barns, and never had to go out to find the horse. I would think that is an accident waiting to happen. If it's a lesson "factory" where it's lesson after lesson, the horses were already tacked, if the horse hadn't been used yet, then it would be in its stall and you would be expected to tack it yourself. Still arrive 30 minutes prior to your lesson, to get yourself and possibly the horse ready. It also depends on the level of rider you are, how fast you can get things done, etc.

I think that this is something that should be written in stone ahead of time, that while the child may have a 1 hour lesson, the epectations are they should be there 30 mintues prior and possibly 30 minutes after to clean after the lesson.

Trees4U

Jan. 5, 2009, 08:59 AM

My 2 cents-

lesson horse should be in the barn. Student should be instructed to arrive at least 1/2 hr before to groom, tack up. If student is late, it is up to discretion of trainer whether or not it comes off lesson time - especially if another student is waiting to ride next.
As an adult amateur, i do not want to shlep through a field chasing a lesson horse(and shooing away others)-having done so from time to time, makes me really cranky:eek::eek: Not to mention the liability ...

RedEqHunter

Jan. 5, 2009, 09:00 AM

I'll add that this really depends on the barn dynamics/situation. Overall, if you're doing something you're not comfortable with or don't like, you should speak with the person in charge or find somewhere else to ride.

Two places I rode at had the school horses in stalls - you got your horse out and tacked it up (little kids had help). When I started schooling horses at one of those barns, I took horses out of the paddocks myself.

Another place tacked up for you. I wasn't really a fan. They were pretty snobby and I didn't learn much in the saddle, either. It was perch, point, and shoot.

The barn I rode at in college was a do-it-all yourself place, including trudging out to the back 40 to retrieve your horse from a herd of 20-ish. Not so much fun, especially considering the horses rarely wanted to be caught and had to be impeccably clean for lessons. But we were there to learn 100% horse care, and that was part of it.

The barn I'm at now has a small feel and nearly all of the school horses live outside. Everyone except little kids and newbies gets their own horse, even if it's in the pasture 1/2 a mile down the road and almost dark. Yes, there is a lot of mud. You either bring a change of boots or wipe off your pair. You hose off the horse's legs, towel them, or curry them.

Mud is mud - you deal with it rather than complaining about it. For those who say it's not part of horsemanship, I have to laugh. Horses are animals - they roll, they get dirty - it's in their nature. If you're not going to clean them up, then pay someone else, but don't complain about it and ignore it. If you're not going to be responsible, then you shouldn't be riding.

S1969

Jan. 5, 2009, 09:48 AM

Mud is mud - you deal with it rather than complaining about it. For those who say it's not part of horsemanship, I have to laugh. Horses are animals - they roll, they get dirty - it's in their nature. If you're not going to clean them up, then pay someone else, but don't complain about it and ignore it. If you're not going to be responsible, then you shouldn't be riding.

I think you're misunderstanding my point about cleaning a muddy horse not really learning horsemanship.

If the sum of your horsemanship skills amounts to being able to clean up a muddy horse then it's not all that impressive. It's messy and time consuming, but not especially hard. I'd rank that pretty low on the list of horsemanship skills; behind overall safety, basic grooming, tacking up, leading properly, wrapping, cooling down, assessing lameness, understanding diet, hoof care, first aid, etc. etc.

Separating a horse from a herd, on the other hand, is an advanced skill, in my opinion. If you don't know the herd dynamics, it can be difficult and really dangerous; it's not a skill I would want a student to practice until they've demonstrated lots of other things: safely turning a horse back out into a group, for example.

I don't think any of the people who have responded that they shouldn't have to catch a horse before a lesson sound as though they are a "princess", complaining or simply irresponsible people. For the average lesson student who is not boarding or leasing a horse, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that the horse is waiting in its stall. By the time you are leasing or owning a horse, then turning in & out should not be an issue.

charismaryllis

Jan. 5, 2009, 10:01 AM

-having done so from time to time, makes me really cranky:eek::eek:

--and then you're rushed to tack and the horse gets irritable because you're rushing and by the time you get in for the lesson, you and the horse are in just a GREAT frame of mind... yep, not a Good Thing.

whbar158

Jan. 5, 2009, 10:11 AM

I also don't think anyone is saying a rank beginner should be thrown out in the field with no help with 20 horses. I think it is something you should learn, doesn't mean you have to do it on your own. The smallest and youngest children where my horse is stand by the gate while the instructor and a teenage barn rat who works there gets the horse, then they progress to going out in the field with the older kid. Once they are older, bigger, and have been riding for awhile are they even allowed to go out in the field by themselves.
Also I have seen this happen where my horse is, most of the school horses are either out 24/7 or go out at night, so usually they are up for lessons if they have a stall. Well if someone shows up 5 mins before their lesson at 4:30 or 5 it is likely the horse was in but got turned out because they didn't call to say they were running late and it was assumed they were a no show.
It really depends where you are who your students are. Most of the children love getting their horses out no matter how muddy and love cleaning them, as they have learned its just a part of riding. Adults are different they think differently, many of them already work all day, have a house to clean etc...
Also I would not expect people who live on long island to want to go get their horse out of the mud and have to clean all that mud esp a working adult.
Riding and being around horses is dangerous, and if you have horses that are nasty out in the field then the children should not go out in that field. I'm not sure there is a non dangerous part of horses.

see u at x

Jan. 5, 2009, 11:15 AM

I agree that it really can depend on a lot of factors. At my last barn, the sheer number of people who had no respect for their instructor's time blew me away. People would arrive 15-20 minutes before their lesson and then spend half an hour getting the horse tacked up. And this was with the horse already in the stall!

At the barn I'm at now, the lesson kids are expected to get their own horses. We have a show team, so the instructor puts the list on the white board of who gets what horse. The kids check the list, get the horse, and then tack up. The herd is pretty mellow, so even with some of the younger kids, it isn't a big deal. But if someone is more of a beginner, the instructor is there to help.

Personally, no matter what or where I ride, I would expect that I would have to get the horse myself, tack up, etc. I also tend to be an early bird when it comes to lessons and am usually there 45-60 minutes beforehand to get the horse, groom, tack, AND warm up. Why? Because I like to take my time and I enjoy grooming my horses. Also, I like to take advantage of my actual lesson time and not waste 20 minutes of a 30-45 minute lesson doing warm up work on my horse that I could have easily done by myself before the lesson started.

Czar

Jan. 5, 2009, 12:12 PM

Wow...hot topic.

Just a few clarifications....no "children" are being sent out to the pastures alone. Also, our adult ladies are not expected to go out and retrieve unless they want to and especially not in poor weather.

It's just the teenaged girls/boys that have experience and know the place...4 months may not seem like a long time but it IS 16 rides so you should be getting a bit of an idea about how things go and I don't think that starting at a new stable automatically makes someone a novice as one poster suggested. Like I said, there's no real policy which is why I was hesistant to say anything but there is the established norm which is, sometimes you will have to retrieve your horse (this was a sunny Sat. morning and the pasture with the mares is about an arena's length from the barn door).

The school is relatively small (15-18 school horses/ponies..not all out together) with the same group of horses being used for certain experience levels. If we are going to use a new horse, said horse is retrieved and tack is set out for them.

I agree that the issue here is a barn policy but from the last 5 pages of responses...it's hard to determine what that should be. Taking out all the exceptions: young children, older adults, muddy pastures (which as luck would have it ours NEVER are as the whole place is built on sand), nasty horses...it still seems like there is a definite split on what is to be expected. I guess it comes down to what the barn owner wants to promote as her business.

I will add one more thing though - to the poster who inferred that these are "riding" lessons not ground lessons or something to that affect....our barn does not enforce that policy and personally, I think that way of teaching is horrible for the riding industry (not that I think retreiving your own horse falls into this...really not sure what I think about that to be honest). No wonder we have riders thinking that getting their hands a little dirty is beneath them or horses that get used up and shipped off - I ALWAYS tell my students that horseback riding is more than just the time they spend in the saddle.

I teach lessons first and foremost because I love horses...my passion for teaching comes after that so there is no way on God's green earth that I would encourage a rider to think of a horse in any other terms than a living, breathing creature. I'm not a bleeding heart by any means but I think those of you who've spent any amount of time working with horses will understand where I'm coming from on that.

mbarrett

Jan. 5, 2009, 01:08 PM

This is in response to the folks who don't think haltering, leading and tacking up a horse is part of a riding lesson.

My husband once taught a gentleman how to ride because he was going on an elk hunting trip in the Rockies. The gentleman said they were packing in and out on horses. He just wanted to get comfortable on a horse.

My husband insisted that the man learn how to do it all: catch, halter, lead and tack up the horse. The man didn't really understand why it was important. My husband asked him what would he do if the guide got hurt or died? Or what would he do if he got seperated from the group? What if he had to pack out to get help? He needed to know how to get the horse ready.

That discussion changed the gentleman's tune. He was more than happy to learn all of it: catching, haltering, leading and tacking up a horse.

Maybe an extreme case, but another reason ALL riders should know how to halter, lead and tack up a horse.

jeta

Jan. 5, 2009, 01:26 PM

As I read this thread I am looking out my kitchen window with the expected 40 mph winds picking up and a temperature to feel like it is in the low teens and below...I am cold just thinking about going out to catch my guy who will fortunately USUALLY:lol: meet me at the gate...( A couple of days ago he made my daughter slug though the mud,....just 'cuz:( ) Once inside we have a pretty dry nice environment to work and ride in.....but, still, we can work on our own timetable....If junior doesn't want to be caught, that is my problem...

In a lesson barn I don't know that being frozen and wet/muddy BEFORE my mounted lesson began ( no matter how much time I allowed myself to be cleaned up and tacked up ) would improve my horsemanship skills.. ( I honestly think that a separate "let's learn about skills that would be good to know" lesson would be a better approach. ) For the record, every lesson barn where I have ridden the horses were always inside....Horse assignment on a board and lesson started when the majorty of riders were ready and mounted...These were no frill central NY cold as hell in the winter places.....I trailered in once I had a trailer so I guess that changed the dynamics a bit after that.....

But that is not your question....5 minutes would not be enough time for Speedy Gonzalas to be ready for a lesson and the mother was unreasonable if she complained....If she is the only one who has a problem, I guess you might want to just make a comment to her about the IMPLIED policy.....If everyone is on board with the policy then she will decide with her pocketbook if your facility and program can work for her and her daughter....It doesn't make her a bad person if she chooses to go elsewhere....She may have time management issues and need to have multiple kids in multiple places....BTDT...

You posted on a thread a while back that I remember regarding parents just wanting to be done with the lesson and would be miffed if the kids were required to do what was required to cool out and put away their horses after a lesson...And the gist was "gee how are these kids going to learn horsemanship?".....You know what? Some just will not no matter how much you want to teach it to them.....It may be a once a week activity for some of these kids.....I think it is great that you want to make well rounded students, but the true students that really want to get down to the nitty gritty and learn more than how to ride are not in the majority in most lesson barns IME....I have to believe that some kids are truly happy with their hour of horsey time each week and if they are decent people and happily hand their check over to you each week, that is the most you can hope for....Take the few that show interest under your wing and do special ground lessons to pass on to the ones who will appreciate it...

Just food for thought....

RedEqHunter

Jan. 5, 2009, 02:05 PM

I think you're misunderstanding my point about cleaning a muddy horse not really learning horsemanship.

If the sum of your horsemanship skills amounts to being able to clean up a muddy horse then it's not all that impressive. It's messy and time consuming, but not especially hard. I'd rank that pretty low on the list of horsemanship skills; behind overall safety, basic grooming, tacking up, leading properly, wrapping, cooling down, assessing lameness, understanding diet, hoof care, first aid, etc. etc.

It's still a part of it - besides, someone's gotta do it. Say the instructor is also the barn owner and has no help. With back-to-back lessons, there might not be time to clean the mud off X number of horses. And if you're at a facility where the school horses live outside, so be it. Don't like it? Speak up or move to a different barn.

Separating a horse from a herd, on the other hand, is an advanced skill, in my opinion. If you don't know the herd dynamics, it can be difficult and really dangerous; it's not a skill I would want a student to practice until they've demonstrated lots of other things: safely turning a horse back out into a group, for example.

True. Having owned horses at home for 20 years this is second nature to me but obviously not to those who don't do it multiple times a day. I think the original poster mentioned that she did not expect this of inexperienced or uncomfortable riders, though.

I don't think any of the people who have responded that they shouldn't have to catch a horse before a lesson sound as though they are a "princess", complaining or simply irresponsible people. For the average lesson student who is not boarding or leasing a horse, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that the horse is waiting in its stall. By the time you are leasing or owning a horse, then turning in & out should not be an issue.

The thing is, though, not all facilities have stalls for all their horses. Many places only have pasture board for many of the occupants, particularly school horses. What then? This is why I think it's important to know how to turn in and out (even if with supervision) and how to properly clean up a horse, even if you need to bring a spare pair of boots, a warm layer of clothing, and something to remove the mud.

When I ride a school horse, I give it the care and attention I would my own, because I feel that that is proper and good horsemanship. I'm not going to shortchange it because someone else didn't have the time to get it ready for me.

findeight

Jan. 5, 2009, 02:25 PM

Late on here...to busy to play lately.

Anyway, 30 minutes prior to lesson time is probably pretty standard at lesson barns. BUT 30 minutes is probably also not enough time to hike to a field, indentify the correct horse, entice it to be caught, get it in, clean it up and tack it up-heck, take me longer then that and I am quite experienced. Unless it is bone dry, recently cleaned, easy to catch and 50 yards or less from the tack up area/groom stall it is probably not fair to ask the typical public program schoolie rider dependent on Mom for transportation to include time for that.

Yeah, 5 minutes is too late. But when you offer a service like this, you need to be a little mindful of working parents and those with other siblings also dependent on parental units for transport. Mom was probably running short of time anyway, did not want to pay for unused time (true, that one is her fault) and could not stay late due to other commitments.

No idea what your relationship with barn owner and owner of the schoolies is but the whole thing is alot easier if they are in. Not tacked up, just in the barn.

If the student expresses an interest, you can teach them how to properly go catch one out in a field later. Not on a busy lesson day.

One other thought, typical once or twice a week schoolie riding kids really don't need to be out in a field trying to catch anything out of a group unless you are dead sure they know how to stay safe doing it.

Let this one go. Emphasize students need to arrive 30 minutes prior to tack up and no arrangements for make ups on late time will be made.

Maybe be sure they are in before you start teaching.

rugbygirl

Jan. 5, 2009, 02:30 PM

SoCalChick

Jan. 5, 2009, 02:52 PM

S1969, your comment about "what, do you just wipe your hands on your breeches" seems quite silly.

Would you even go into a stall to groom and tack up in your riding clothes? I wouldn't.

I always arrive in some form of outdoor footwear, appropriate for the season, with a pair of older pants over my breeches and a barn coat over my top. I fetch my horse from wherever he is (stall or outdoors) and groom, while he may decide to slobber, wipe a grassy mouth or any number of "dirty" things.

I wouldn't want to disrespect my teacher by arriving in a horse hair covered shirt or with slobber all over my breeches.

*pfft* I could barely write that without laughing :lol:

Barns aren't clean places whether you're going outside or not. Horses aren't clean animals. DRESS APPROPRIATELY. It isn't really difficult. When I pay $300 for breeches, you can bet I don't wear them for GROOMING.

I agree, it isn't difficult to dress appropriately, but I go to my riding lesson right after work, and usually end up changing into my proper riding clothes in my office (with the door closed of course). At the place where I ride, it would just take up more time to get all those extra layers off, since there's no place to store those grooming clothes. There's no place to change there either, unless you want to change in your car. You'd have to hike back to your car, which could take another 10 minutes.

I try to get to my lesson 45-60 minutes before it starts, but it is hard, especially when you have to work late, are stuck in traffic, etc.

All that extra work such as fetching a wiley horse from a muddy field, cleaning it off, etc (not that I am opposed to it) is part of horse ownership and being a responsible owner, but if you pay a lot for lessons, don't own a horse, and you have to miss part of your lesson, then I can understand why some people get frustrated.

S1969

Jan. 5, 2009, 03:10 PM

S1969, your comment about "what, do you just wipe your hands on your breeches" seems quite silly.

Barns aren't clean places whether you're going outside or not. Horses aren't clean animals. DRESS APPROPRIATELY. It isn't really difficult. When I pay $300 for breeches, you can bet I don't wear them for GROOMING.

Nor would I wear $300 breeches in a lesson!

Maybe your barn is a lot nicer than where I ride. At my lesson barn, and every other one I've been at, you show up basically ready to ride. There is one bathroom in the BO's office. No changing rooms, no place to put your "grooming clothes" except back in your car or on the aisle floor. I suppose bringing a change of boots isn't outrageous, but completely changing after grooming is impractical where I ride.

I can't imagine expecting lesson kids to change after grooming. The girls in my dd's lesson would have to be at the barn 2 hours in advance to get everything done -- catching their horse, taking off 3 blankets, fully grooming, and then redressing themselves (toe warmers, long underwear, etc.) I guess the only beauty of below freezing temperatures is that mud isn't usually a problem.

findeight

Jan. 5, 2009, 03:16 PM

All that extra work such as fetching a wiley horse from a muddy field, cleaning it off, etc (not that I am opposed to it) is part of horse ownership and being a responsible owner, but if you pay a lot for lessons, don't own a horse, and you have to miss part of your lesson, then I can understand why some people get frustrated.

Bingo. Well stated.

When people are paying for a couple of lessons a week and do not and have never owned them (and have no intention of ever owning one) plus are busy parents without the time to spend, you have to prioritize. That helps on both sides, helps them with time management and helps you retain the client. Save the horse catching for summer camp.

Sorry guys, just do NOT want the inexperienced at catching loose horses out catching loose horses unsupervised as a learning experience and part of their lesson time.

I'm in a barn with a big and very successful public program and they have to have been there for awhile to be allowed to catch one up and then they are accompanied by a staff member, and that would not be right before a lesson-they are brought in earlier. Think that a good policy.

Whisper

Jan. 5, 2009, 03:23 PM

Most lesson horses I've rode have been kept in stalls or paddocks, rather than large fields with several other horses. I've needed to catch several horses I part-leased or rode for free who were pastured, though, and rarely had any trouble. I've had a couple be a little tough to catch occasionally, and had a couple of other horses get in the way and want attention/etc. (even if I wasn't carrying a treat). Even if they are very friendly, it's hard to deal with them sometimes. One even used to drive the horse I was trying to catch away, then stand with his nose right in position to be haltered (pick me instead!). When you're in a hurry, it's a bit annoying.

I've seen several cases here and on the UDBB where a lesson kid accidentally caught and tacked up the wrong horse, so that is a factor.

I agree 5 minutes isn't enough time to get ready, even if the horse was already in the crossties!

BuddyRoo

Jan. 5, 2009, 03:27 PM

I don't really think there's a right or wrong here. Only a set of expectations that may have been unclear and a frazzled mother who failed to show up in time REGARDLESS of if the horse had been in or out to be frank.

When I take a lesson somewhere, I expect to be told what is expected of me. Then I can plan appropriately.

Most of the time, I've taken lessons on my own horses...that meant fetching from a pasture or hauling in....but regardless, being ready at lesson time.

When I've taken lessons on school horses, they were in stalls waiting for me. I groomed, tacked up, and away I went. I honestly can't afford to leave work an hour early on the off chance that I may need to wade out into the muck and find a mud encrusted horse in the back 40 vs a 10 min tack up.

Personally, I don't feel like walking out and catching a horse is a "lesson" I need. Been doing that for 30 years. If I had to show up an hour early for my school horse lessons to wade through muck, I'd likely choose another barn. But these are questions and expectations I would cover in advance.

I had a kid half leasing my mare briefly who had been taking "lessons" for 6 years. She was actually a pretty decent rider. But she had NO CLUE how to catch a horse, tie said horse safely or tack up on her own. I think this is an important part of teaching horsemanship. I think any lesson program needs to decide if they're simply teaching "riding" or if they're teaching people to be horsemen/women. 90% of what I do with regards to horses is not riding. That 90% is important if you want to have your own horses, your own place, etc...but perhaps is NOT important if you fully intend to simply be a rider. Which is FINE. It's just that to me, if all you can do is ride, you're missing out on so much.

MissintheSouth

Jan. 5, 2009, 03:36 PM

Depends on the barn set up and level of rider.

At the barn where I used to work, the school horses went out in a HUGE back 50 acre field. It was a hike in the best weather if they were at the gate; and an oddysey if they happened to be scattered in the back of the field and in bad weather. So all lesson horses were brought into standing stalls if there were lessons (usually in 1 hour prior to lessons and turned out as they were done for the day).

Another barn I have been at had a smallish 2 acre paddock right off the back of the barn that was relatively easy to get in and out of safely (none of our lesson horses were gate loiterers or chargers). So there if the horse was already in for some reason, it stayed in until the lesson day ended, and if they were out, the student (providing they were capable of getting them safely) went out and brought the horse in.

In both cases, it was posted all over the place (and on the rate sheet) that lessons should arrive 30-40 minute prior to the lesson in order to be prepared for an on-time lesson start.

At the larger ("fancier") places I worked, there was an option for adults to pay extra for "full care" which included tacking up and cooling out by a groom (usually me) even if they rode a lesson horse. This option was not available for juniors unless there was a good reason - like one jr who had a 60 min drive from her school and in order to ride in the lesson and before dark would have to have her horse tacked up for her.

rugbygirl

Jan. 5, 2009, 05:23 PM

Far be it from me to tell you what services to pay for in a barn, I've always caught my own horse and managed to get ready for lessons in an hour. This held true on the back 40 horses as well as the stalled ones. If you prefer to have your horse stalled and tidy, that's no problem, but don't try and tell me that it HAS to be that way :)

I always arrive in some form of outdoor footwear, appropriate for the season, with a pair of older pants over my breeches and a barn coat over my top.

I live in Northern Alberta. You need to put your coat, mittens, toque, scarf and winter boots somewhere while you ride. I would put my grooming pants and barn coat with them. At one barn, I put my stuff on top of my lesson saddle's rack. Sometimes you get tack lockers, otherwise I bring a duffel. It works ok. You can always leave it in the horse's stall. I've had my own horse for a while now, so I have a tack locker. I always wear my barn coat though, even in high summer, because it has pockets and my riding pants don't. I need somewhere to keep the crunchies!

I don't actually own a pair of $300 breeches ;)

JGHIRETIRE

Jan. 5, 2009, 05:49 PM

ROFL - I don't think I'd want a pair of $300 breeches.
I'm "the mom". My daughter and I both ride - we've been there for 2 years.
At first they helped us both bring in the horses - most of them in nearby semi-private paddocks. Checked us both out on how to groom/tack up the horse.
Depending on the horse, my 11 y.o. is now allowed to get her own horse and tack it before her lesson. Mud or no mud. If it might be a bit of a problem for her - someone supervises her - sometimes the barn help - sometimes me.
Unless the horse we are scheduled to ride is in a previous lesson - we always tack up our own horses. As a mom I prefer that my daughter learn how to do this as she's diva enough as it is!!
No one would send her out to catch a horse in a field of 7 all by herself. Horses are horses and "stuff" happens.
We are 99% of the time at the barn early enough to accomplish all this knowing what needs to be done. If I'm going to be late, I always call to let them know I'm going to be late. That's just common courtesy to me.
JMO

dogchushu

Jan. 5, 2009, 06:27 PM

Once again people have managed to turn something which is of course going to vary from barn to barn, situation to situation into a moral issue. It isn't. It is different for each barn and therefore each barn should have the expectations and rules clearly posted so there isn't any confusion. This is common sense!

For some reason, the first sentence here just cracked me right up! :lol:

I agree that it's not a moral issue. It's probably not even an etiquette issue, but rather, one of expectations.

Czar, you mentioned that there's no clear barn policy and you're not sure what the barn owner wants to promote as her business. Perhaps you could discuss that with her and draft a letter of introduction for new students. In it, you can explain your lesson "philosophy" (for lack of a better word) and expectations so your students know what's coming.

There are so many different program structures out there and students/parents come to you with vasty different experiences and expectations. Some students may expect to learn all aspects of horsemanship. Others may expect a once a week chance to ride a nice horse under supervision. It helps if they all know what you plan!