Showing "special" breeds in H/J

[saitou_amaya]

So I have a friesian I am just now starting to show, but only at C rated shows now. Soon we would like to move up to A rated stuff, but I have a feeling the judges would not appriciate the friesian "look". Right now when we show, I braid his mane in a french braid and do nothing with his tail (he has the tail of 5 horses quite literally!). Today he just got a trace clip because he gets so sweaty. Is that acceptable for A rated shows or not so much? I CANNOT pull his mane or tail because I also want to show in breed shows. Also his foot feathering must stay but does anyone have any idea how judges would feel towards that? lol I think we are breaking new ground, I have NEVER seen a friesian at a hunter/jumper show! :D

[HARROLDhasmyheart]

So I have a friesian I am just now starting to show, but only at C rated shows now. Soon we would like to move up to A rated stuff, but I have a feeling the judges would not appriciate the friesian "look". Right now when we show, I braid his mane in a french braid and do nothing with his tail (he has the tail of 5 horses quite literally!). Today he just got a trace clip because he gets so sweaty. Is that acceptable for A rated shows or not so much? I CANNOT pull his mane or tail because I also want to show in breed shows. Also his foot feathering must stay but does anyone have any idea how judges would feel towards that? lol I think we are breaking new ground, I have NEVER seen a friesian at a hunter/jumper show! :D

Well...the answer depends on a lot of different factors. For example, are you first moving up to mostly B rated shows, or straight to the A/AA ones? Also, are you going to show in the hunters, jumpers, or eq? While I don't think there is anything prohibiting you from showing your horse as it, it would be quite, err, untraditional. Suffice it to say that you would stand out at a rated show filled with lots of warmblood, thoroughbred, and cross types. There may be riders with friesans in similar predicaments such as your own; however, I don't think they are seen very often in the higher rated circuits.

Soo....YES you can show a friesan at a rated show. YES your horse can have a trace clip. No you do not have to braid traditionally, if you are showing in the jumpers. I am not a rules guru so I'm not sure if the type of braids are specified, or even required, for hunters or for eq. I believe, although am ready and willing to stand corrected, that you do not have to braid to show, but that most everybody does. Will your horse stand out? Yes. Will it look a tad unusual against the backdrop of 'everybody else's' horses? Yes. But are you allowed to go ahead and do so anyways? Yes.

[superpony123]

what divisions are you planning on showing in? I think the most 'acceptable' division that non-traditional horses are seen in and not as discriminated against is the pleasure division. though that's going to be pretty boring if youre into jumping (though i have not seen many friesian jumpers, there are some out there..), if youre just there for flatwork, pleasure will be your best bet. as for jumpers, you dont have to braid, but if you want to--any type of braid is okay. for hunters, i'm not really sure what to do. for smalller C and B shows, a french braid would probably be okay, but at a large A show, you might have to pull your horses mane and do some hunter braids, if you plan on doing lots of A's.. (if i had a friesian i'd probably never bring it to A shows because i would never want to pull their long gorgeous manes, lol)

[saitou_amaya]

We will do some B rated stuff before moving up to A rated but my goal is to show A/AA by this summer. I know he will stand out we are already well used to it. We always do hunters, and I know they tend to be a bit more strict with the rules and appearances. I mean we could try to do traditional braids but they turn out roughly the size of beach balls. lol

[Alterageous]

If you really want to be competitive in the A rated hunters, you'll need to pull the mane, trim the tail, and clip the feathers.

If you can't be competitive, why go? The show experience is the same as at a B or C show, only more expensive.

I just can't see a freisan with long feathers, an unbraided tail, and a running braid fitting in the with the "neat and workmanlike" aspect of the hunter judging. Maybe some judges can chime in on this.

[findeight]

One of the traditional reasons for braiding is to keep the hair out of your face when galloping and jumping-it is rooted in practicality and safety. Even a French or running braid can be an issue because there are loops and various places you could get caught or hung up on if things go wrong when you jump-and if you jump, things do go wrong alot quicker and more dramatically so anything is possible.
That full tail would have come back from a real Hunt littered with debris from every bush you got close to. Today it is going to really accentuate any flaws in the back end or busyness over the fences because there is so much of it-he better be dead quiet with it.

No idea about the Friesians as Hunters at the AA rated level. Only ones I have seen do not move long and low, are too upright in front and have way too much knee. Only seen them in Dressage exhibitions and in harness.

If yours does move long and low, has a naturally more level topline (meaning from poll to croup) and lacks that knee action, he might make a decent Hunter.

BUT...are you sure you want to be the only one out of 40 mostly very good horses at a AA rated in the 3' Adults? Sometimes standing out is not what you really want to do.

I'd say if you are laying down trips scoring 80 or better in front of experienced judges against good horses and pinning at or near the top in decent sized classes-like, more then 6 or 8 and more like 15-20 at your local shows? You can think about moving up. But that is true of anybody on any breed or combination of breeds.

I have no problem with unusual breeds and used to show Half Arabs at rated open shows-turned out pretty much like everything else. But I think in this case, the horse is very off type and may not be able to produce the right kind of canter and jump.

[pattnic]

I regards to the tail: Would it be possible for you to put it up in a mud roll/knot? It would be hunter-acceptable and also help disguise the length of the tail. I'm not sure what stipulations there on on braiding at Fresian shows, but if it's acceptable for your horse to wear traditional hunter braids at a Fresian show, then it should be no problem to pull the mane a bit and do hunter braids... you will just have to ALWAYS braid at a Fresian show.

(I have Morgans, so I've been through this - my mare's mane is pulled, and if she goes to a Morgan show, she wears hunter braids. This is acceptable)

[Fluffie]

1. The running French braid is acceptable at rated shows--I've seen breed horses use them consistently and it isn't a problem. I doubt that the feathering would really be a problem either.

2. There aren't any "pleasure" classes at hunter/jumper A shows; there are flat classes within the different divisions. Frankly, if the Freez moves like the typical breed representative, he/she won't have a prayer in a flat class--just different than what is expected of a hunter.

3. As I just hinted, movement/jumping style will be the issue as opposed to turnout. But, if it looks like fun, why not? ;)

[Giddy-up]

If you really want to be competitive in the A rated hunters, you'll need to pull the mane, trim the tail, and clip the feathers.

I agree. If you want to be competitive, then you have to play the game.

Now if you don't care about being competitive or that you will look different from others, than do as you want.

[findeight]

3. As I just hinted, movement/jumping style will be the issue as opposed to turnout. But, if it looks like fun, why not? ;)

Because AA shows cost 6 times what locals do even without trainer charges?

Going in very good competition on something way off type with conformation unlikely to produce the Hunter canter and jumps for fun can be done more cheaply elsewhere.

[caffeinated]

Because AA shows cost 6 times what locals do even without trainer charges?

Going in very good competition on something way off type with conformation unlikely to produce the Hunter canter and jumps for fun can be done more cheaply elsewhere.

Exactly my thought.

[Gwendolyn]

First off, I'd like to say good for you! I took a Friesian to a schooling show and she did quite well. She also went cross country and won her class. ;)

Anyway, if you want to do and have the money, why not? The mare I rode was more the sport style and not the baroque style, so had little knee action, a longer stride, and could trot long and low.

You will stand out, but depending on the competition at that particular show, if the horse has good form o/f, you may end up in the ribbons. You'd just have to be extra special.

When I showed, I did not clip the legs or pull the mane, as the owner didn't want it. I french braided the mane, which looked decent.

What do you know, I found some pictures!

In the hunter class, it is not me riding, I was riding another horse in the same class, and there was a girl there that wanted to jump her, so I said, why not? She doesn't have great from o/f, but the fences are super tiny. The pictures cross country are of me (in the red polo). Please excuse the eq, it was her first time, and I had NO idea what she would do, but she was fantastic!

http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/thumbpage.aspx?e=3200063

She is #820

[magnolia73]

The worst thing is that you might not place. Nobody is going to announce- "look-a fresian with a long mane and tail-hahaha!". But if you want to win, you need to work towards the set ideal- the long, low movement, workman like appearance. I would think your horse's movement would be the biggest barrier to success- assuming he moves like the fresians I have seen. If he goes in and moves and jumps like Roxdene, the big tail and running braid probably won't hurt you. If he goes in and canters around with a lot of knee action and has a funny jump, clearing out the excess hair isn't going to help.

But if you are just going to try something new and have fun- go for it. It certainly can't hurt.

[TheOrangeOne]

OK, we're going to take the main blatant rule violation of this scenario out of the picture. Assume a friesian show that is not restricted to friesians.

"I want to take my warmblood to a big time friesian show. I can't grow out his mane or tail, he is absolutely not going to have leg hairs. I need to still do normal hunter shows. Do you think I'll be discrimated against for having a different breed of horse?"

It's the same deal. God knows what wuld happen if I hooked him up to a cart, but he might be really good at it. Same as your horse, I haven't EVER seen a friesian who even emotely fits the hunter type, but yours could be it. Haven't seen him. So if you are going into it with a breed of horse that is bred for something entirely different than what the standard is for this show, I wouldn't totally buck the turnout rules too. If someone showed up in one of your shows turned out with a banded mane, blunt tail, and legs done with a thirty blade like a halter quarter horse, they wouldn't do as well as they could otherwise because it is a move away from the standard against which you are judged.

If you want to go for the experience, go. I really enjoy it. Also, jumpers are subjectively judged, so you're more likely to be able to go in and prove the judge wrong when they giggle at you, versus in the hunters where the judge's opinion really matters as to how you'll place. Harsh, I know, but I think you underestimate an A show. I'd suggest going to watch one first and then deciding whether it's something you want to pursue.

Edited to add: I don't know how true this is, but I found this on a friesian website: "During the history of the Friesian horse breeding, they were never bred with jumping in mind. The angles and weight bearing in the shoulder and neck make them unsuitable for jumping. Some owners jump their Friesians for fun, but constant jump training would put and excess amount of pressure on the fetlock and hock joints." Landing off a jump means several thousand pounds of pressure one one leg.

[Alterageous]

I think this is one of those things where if it was a smaller level, fine, but if you want to do both the rated freisan shows and the rated hunter shows, it's time to pick one or the other and commit. It's not really possible to turn a horse out correctly for both, so pick which one you want to do more. If you pull the mane, trim the feathers, and show hunters for a season, you can always decide later that you don't like it and the hair will grow back.

It just doesn't make sense to me to spend all that money on an A show and so heavily disadvantage yourself by not doing the best hunter turnout.

[ef80]

If you've got a non-traditional horse that you want to take in the Hunter ring, you need to understand that you will stand out. It can be a blessing and a curse - a pinto/Friesian/buckskin/loud-colored Appaloosa/etc that puts down a great round will stand out in the judges mind. Likewise, a chip from the funny colored or funny shaped horse is going to be easier to remember than a chip from one of the 10 bays in the class.

The Hunter ring is so subjective and specific in what it wants that I personally wouldn't bother with it unless I had a very true-to-type horse that jumped a 10 and 100% looked the part of a contemporary Hunter. For example, a friend of mine is shopping right now and has found a lovely horse - but he's a complete anachronism that looks and goes like an old 1960's Hunter. She's pretty sure she's going to buy him but they'll go to the Eq and Jumpers instead.

The Jumper ring isn't as scary as Hunter riders like to make it out to be - in the past few years show management has added a billion classes at 3' and below - some of which even offer cash. If you can set him up on his hind end and make the turns, you can do quite well without any of the swimming upstream that you'd encounter in the Hunter ring. You will see some scary rides and people just gunning it at the 3' and below, but a good ride with accurate turns can still beat the people who are simply going all-out.

Do the jumpers, just don't be the next Russian Roulett/++#*++!~@

[Nix]

Just hire yourself a BNT to stand at the gate whooping and clapping for you... you might just pin a good ribbon!! :winkgrin:

Good luck and have fun!

[saitou_amaya]

Just hire yourself a BNT to stand at the gate whooping and clapping for you... you might just pin a good ribbon!! :winkgrin:

Good luck and have fun!

Thats hilarious!!! Well, we arleady have that, so maybe thats the only reason we place at the B and C shows!!! :lol:
Anyways, we are pretty serious, not just doing this for fun. We have worked very very hard and making his trot nice and low and long. No funky knee action. I have always ridden hunters and although when I got my friesian we did a LITTLE dressage, I missed it too much. And he enjoys jumping much more. He is also afraid of carts, so he is definatley not a type friesian. He has very clean form over fences, which I think is something judes remeber because they are expecting crap. I wasn't nearly as worried about his form and movement being less hunter than what the judges would think of his appearance. Hunters is judges VERY subjectively. But its not like we go out there hair flying everywhere. We have a neat appearance. I think we can place, but maybe that is me dreaming...

[ExJumper]

If you had pictures or video maybe it would help us? Surely if you're winning at the B and C shows you must have something we could look at.

If you have always ridden hunters, why did you get a fresian? And if you are experienced in the hunters, you will have seen what kind of response there is to unconventional horses. And I'm not talking a spotted horse or an appaloosa QH or some arab blood. A fresian would be a VERY unconventional horse in the hunter ring.

All I know is that if your fresian carries itself like the other ones I've seen it does NOT move like a hunter. And If it's built like a fresian, it isn't going to jump like a hunter.

You said it jumped "clean." What does that mean? Does it jump like a hunter, or does it jump clean? There are some VERY successful low level jumpers that jump clean but wouldn't stand a chance in an A show hunter ring. And you say you want to do the AAs? I've been there. I've seen what pins.

And you said you have a BNT clapping for you at B and C shows. Does your hunter BNT think your fresian has what it takes at the AA shows? Any true BNT should be able to answer these questions much better than we can. But I can't believe that any real BNT is going to have a feathered fresian in his/her hunter string.

If you really want to do the hunters and think that your horse has what it takes then it shouldn't be a question -- you pull the mane, trim the fetlocks, do something to the tail and try and look like a hunter. But honestly I don't see a fresian doing very well as an A circuit hunter. If you have an anomalous fresian, show me a picture and prove me wrong! I'd love to see it :)

If you *enjoy* doing the hunters with your fresian, by all means go ahead and do it. But as others said, the price of an AA show is pretty high to just go around the ring for fun.

I apologize if any of that sounded harsh. It wasn't intended to. I'm just trying to be honest.

[kates93]

There are pictures in her show name thread (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=181676). I remember because he is a memorable (and beautiful) guy! :)

[Giddy-up]

the OP here has posted a pic in Post #20 on "the worst pics" thread. I assume that's the horse she's talking about here?

[galwaybay]

I think you're going to throw your money away.. if you have it, fine, otherwise, I would stick to local shows and smaller rated shows - those A & AA shows are going to bring in tough competition - in order to do pin well in those classes - well everyone needs to be exceptional- any breed...find the thread on this BB about HUSH ... look at that horse; look at some of his photos...there's one of him jumping - flawless, gorgeous...perfection. I'm thinking your Friesian is not going to look like that over fences...so why invest $500++ in entry fees to make a point? Feathers are going to possibly distract from his form or draw more attention to any flaws... there's a good chance that a judge is going to see you enter the ring and after you jump the first fence - that might be all they watch - hmm time to check email... don't kid yourself it does happen...

Shoot I've seen people on wonderful draft crosses - horses are adorable do they well absolutely; do they place - hardly...

It's a shame but I would personally like to see some shows start to offer classes/divisions like some of the European hunters - Lightweight, Midweight and heavyweight...

[ExJumper]

He is a very handsome horse. And I hope you kept the name Xerox. I like it!

[SquishTheBunny]

I know a fresian that shows jumper - he's not too bad,not fast,but he gets the job done. ALthough, I think if you wanted to attend an A show, you need to have some respect for the judge - clip legs, properly braid mane. Also, be aware that at many bigger A shows the hunters are $100,000+ horses who were BRED for the hunter ring. It may just not beworth throwing away themoney. Jumper is always fair game, fastest cleanest wins. I would go there is you arent interested in clipping legs or taming the mane.

[findeight]

It's a shame but I would personally like to see some shows start to offer classes/divisions like some of the European hunters - Lightweight, Midweight and heavyweight...

They used to but not for the last 20 years or so.

Doubt it will be back.

[sansibar]

ALthough, I think if you wanted to attend an A show, you need to have some respect for the judge - clip legs, properly braid mane. Also, be aware that at many bigger A shows the hunters are $100,000+ horses who were BRED for the hunter ring. It may just not beworth throwing away themoney..

I agree 100% when I see people with sloppy turnout I am discusted, if the braids are meesy, the horse has hair every where, or is dirty I think it is so disrespectful. Because here I am paying $100 + for body clipping, $70 for a full braiding job, grooming fees etc. I think if you can afford to show at the big shows you should turnout properly to them.

If you think your horse can be a hunter and is not a 'typical' friesian then why do breed shows?

I garuntee you unless you put hunter braids in, and clip the feathers the judge won't even look at you. At AA shows you will get riders out on $500000 imported warmbloods, so unless your horse can compare and get you around looking liek Saloon or Rox Dene then you will not pin. I have had several warmbloods with traditional hunter movements and looks but they don't even compare to the quality that is pinning.

Unfortuneatly the hunter ring is very subjective and filled with people who have a lot of money.

Sorry but this is the truth, .

[Giddy-up]

I think before we start feeding the sterotype that you need an imported uber fancy big $$$$$ WB horse to show at the A shows, we need to realize OP has never stated where she's going to show.

I have been to some A shows with weak entries. Seen some horse win or get ribbons that in "real" company wouldn't stand a chance. But when there is less than 6 in the class--you are guaranteed a ribbon.

So perhaps OP is in an area with small A shows that have light entries? And if it's her dream to ride in an A show on her Fresian, then have at it if you can afford it. Some people dream to show at WEF or Upperville or where ever so they do it yet they stand a snowballs chance of ever winning there.

[ExJumper]

We will do some B rated stuff before moving up to A rated but my goal is to show A/AA by this summer.

The OP does say that she wants to do AA shows. Those are going to be competitive, no matter where they are.

I'm certainly not saying she needs a million dollar warmblood. I certainly didn't have one :) Nor am I planning on getting one!

But going to an AA show and spending $1300? I like to think that if I'm going to spend the money I have a chance of a ribbon if I rode perfectly.

I do have a caveat, though. It was hard to tell what height you were jumping in the picture you posted in the naming thread. You would have a much better chance in the novice childrens than the 3' childrens. In the novice, being a "good guy" is much more rewarded.

[heartinrye]

You say that you can have a 'neat appearance' even without clipping your horses legs, but after looking at those pictures, I cannot see how that is possible. Sorry but that is the truth.
You say that you want to go to AA rated shows, I can honestly say I have never seen a 'breed' horse (and they have been few and far between) who is not turned out in typical hunter form, pulled mane with traditional braids and clipped legs and a braided tail that is of an appropriate length.
Also, I remember at VSF last summer the biggest division of the show was the 'modified child/adult' with over 100 entries, and some of those horses were in the six figure range too.

[Alterageous]

I guess I'll be the one to say, but if the turnout is as shown in the pictures in the show name thread, I think there are larger problems than just the mane and feathers.

The horse in the pictures has a long coat caked with sweat, which makes him look dirty, and he's not even TRIMMED neatly. I also don't see the good jumping form or correct gaits being described here.

I think you have your answer. Decide what you want to do and make a go of it. But if you want to seriously do hunters, you need to let go of the breed shows and make the horse look like a hunter to even remotely have a chance in AA competition.

Also I suggest spending the money on an appropriate show helmet and better fitting jacket and boots before shelling out for an AA show.

[heartinrye]

Also I suggest spending the money on an appropriate show helmet and better fitting jacket and boots before shelling out for an AA show.

Thank you for saying what I was too chicken to :)

[shade]

Thank you for saying what I was too chicken to :)

That wasn't the OP, the OP was the woman in the red polo shirt going CC.

[ExJumper]

That wasn't the OP, the OP was the woman in the red polo shirt going CC.

This is the OP:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=704323&id=826614699

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1022497&id=826614699

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1022496&id=826614699

I believe you need a facebook account to see them.

I believe heartinrye and alteragous are thinking of the correct person/horse.

[CenterStage123]

That wasn't the OP, the OP was the woman in the red polo shirt going CC.

I believe that was just another poster with a friesian.

As for the OP, its not only the horses apperance that needs to be worked on, yours does also. If you have enough money for AA shows, then you can certainly invest in a new helmet, tall boots, and HAIRNET!

I would suggest full body clipping the horse if your planning on showing in the winter. This includes the feathers. In the pituures on the name thread, he looks sweaty an disgusting. Also please, please pull the mane. A long mane makes the horse look ragamuffin like. I even pull horses manes that aren't showing. In the pictures he does not have the hunter movement or jump.

If you knew you liked riding hunters, why did you get a freisan? Obviously your "BNT" would have talked you out of this??

Your best bet if you wanted to do AA shows is jumpers.

ETA- sorry this is kinda mean, although truthful. I had a bad day.
Also, I used to show a stocky 15 hand quarter horse in childrens hunters. In schooling I always got amused stares but that changed quickly when I ended up beating them. However, this is because My horse almost always put in flawless rounds. If we didn't pin in the top 3 it was always my fault.

So best of luck to you.

[Lucassb]

There are pictures in her show name thread (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=181676). I remember because he is a memorable (and beautiful) guy! :)

If the OP is asking whether the horse in the pictures linked above would look appropriate in the hunter ring at an A or AA show... the short answer is no.

That doesn't mean you can't enter and show, of course. Even big A shows will generally take anyone's $$$ and the shows you actually have to qualify for are a very small percentage.

Aside from the turnout issues (clipping/coat/mane length et al) if the posted pictures accurately depict the hores's form, he simply doesn't jump in the form required for a winning hunter round. And the competition at the A level, (in many areas even the *local* A level) is pretty stiff... never mind the AA shows.

Perhaps the OP may want to browse photos of the winners at the A and AA shows in the area. It should be instructive in terms of what is being rewarded by the judges.

The pic below is of my baby green horse from the VT Summer Festival show (week 4) - he topped a class of fifty something with this trip. He's a baby and the jumps are small, but this is the type of look (in terms of both turnout and form) that you expect to see in a winning hunter round.

[Noctis]

While the OPs horse is "cute" the turnout and jumping and flat picture shown above wouldn't pin at any of our schooling shows in the area, much less any of the rated shows. He doesn't show good form over either fence, and the rider does not look ready to be jumping yet, or at least not in the show ring. Basically, no way no how. And if you're training is telling you you're ready or that you will do ok, then based on these pictures, they're doing a poor job of being honest! Brutal, yes. Honest? Yes.

[Seven-up]

OP, consider that there are rules regarding turnout, and if you are not properly turned out, the ingate has every right not to allow you in the ring. Not saying that would happen, but it's possible. It's not about being snooty because you don't have XX brand of boots and coat, it's about respect for the judge and what's in the rulebook.

There's no reason why you can't do it, just don't be upset if you don't place. Don't think it's because the judge hates Fresians. It's not because your horse is a Fresian, it's because he doesn't fit the mold of an ideal hunter. It's not about bucking the system and proving every one wrong. It would be like me taking my shetland pony to a Fresian show and then complaining because he didn't place, even though I think he's prettier than all the other Fresians. Or taking a gaited horse in a class that requires w/t/c, and then being mad because the horse didn't place, even though he didn't trot or canter.

If you want to shell out all that money for an AA show, go for it. Your horse is beautiful. But I don't really think he fits the description of a hunter. If you don't want to get the hairy eyeball, do the jumpers. In jumperland, you can wear a rubber chicken on your head and no one will care.:D

[gottagrey]

the rider can be properly turned out for showing - she can braid his mane and tail; there is no rule that says a horse has to be trimmed. She can do all the right "cosmetic" things, however, his style and way of going are going to leave you out of the ribbons.Yeah yeah yeah we all say it's not about the ribbons but yes in a way it is. If you want to compete and jump your horse why not try some low level eventing. You will be judged on the correctness of your dressage, jumping is going clean - no style or way of going. Your horse is lovely and the pair of you look good together -show him in something where you have a bit of a chance...you're a nice pair you owe it to him to be competitive, I don't think you will be in the hunters.

[huntereq7]

A/AA shows are very pricey... as stated previously, to pin well in the hunter ring you basically need to fit the "stereotype" of the typical hunter. Your horse looks very cute but I spent basically the entire year at A/AA shows and you and your horse need to be impeccably turned out to be taken seriously. A long mane and feathers just isn't acceptable in the hunter ring at say, any of the HITS shows, VSF, or something along those lines. Well-fitted tall boots and a nice helmet such as a GPA or Charles Owen should be invested in as well- if you're going to be at these bigger shows you're going to need the proper attire as well. These shows are pricey... personally I can't justify spending thousands and thousands of collars to not be competitive... just a personal opinion :)

[galwaybay]

A/AA shows are very pricey... as stated previously, to pin well in the hunter ring you basically need to fit the "stereotype" of the typical hunter. Your horse looks very cute but I spent basically the entire year at A/AA shows and you and your horse need to be impeccably turned out to be taken seriously. A long mane and feathers just isn't acceptable in the hunter ring at say, any of the HITS shows, VSF, or something along those lines. Well-fitted tall boots and a nice helmet such as a GPA or Charles Owen should be invested in as well- if you're going to be at these bigger shows you're going to need the proper attire as well. These shows are pricey... personally I can't justify spending thousands and thousands of collars to not be competitive... just a personal opinion :)

It doesn't matter how impeccably they are turned out, she can thin the mane, clip his feathers, buy a new helmet, boots & jacket - that's not going to give the horse a long floaty daisy-cutter trot or canter, and not give him better jumping form.

[huntereq7]

It doesn't matter how impeccably they are turned out, she can thin the mane, clip his feathers, buy a new helmet, boots & jacket - that's not going to give the horse a long floaty daisy-cutter trot or canter, and not give him better jumping form.


Obviously... but if she is dead-set on taking this horse to that type of show things as such should be done.

[Noctis]

I would also probably add that the OP looks to be a minor, from her facebook page, and would really need to convince her family that spending several thousand dollars to go to shows that her trainer shouldn't be encouraging for the type of horse and rider. But by all means, have fun at the lower level shows, he looks like a good soul.

[huntereq7]

I would also probably add that the OP looks to be a minor, from her facebook page, and would really need to convince her family that spending several thousand dollars to go to shows that her trainer shouldn't be encouraging for the type of horse and rider. But by all means, have fun at the lower level shows, he looks like a good soul.


I agree! Maybe in the jumpers? It's quite fun and there are some money classes too which can help with your entries!

[sansibar]

I just noticed the photos, but will you be able to put rounds up against some of the horses who are winning the divisions? I agree if you are willing to put out thousands of dollars for a show, don't you want to have a chance?

Here are some of the top Junior Hunters in the country, and you will be sure to come into competition with horses of this calibre in any rated division:Perfectionist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mO-vQFQYdRM)
Zoom (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVtGkJMkaic&feature=related)
Lyle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuQg7LJmFp4&feature=related)

And yes your turn out will also have to improve aswell. Hairnet, tall boots, better helmet, etc.

Here are photos of winning hunters:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/index.php?cat=21601043093718&z_Gallery_ID=1383110080421339
http://www.chronofhorse.com/index.php?cat=21601043093718&z_Gallery_ID=1383010082402811

Also wanted to add, that my horse (Sansibar, if you look at the photos at the bottom) can out trot most horses, and his conformation is better than a lot of the horses in the area. So he wins at local show and b rated shows, but his jump is okay, not a hunter style at all which is necessary at th A and AA levels, thats why at upper level shows he is an Eq horse or jumper.

My friend bought a pony who clean swept every class it went in local, and b rated, went onto the A shows (which in Canada are not nearly as competitive as the american) and it did alright but no good ribbons came home with it this year.

[Trixie]

Anyways, we are pretty serious, not just doing this for fun.

If you want to "seriously" be competitive at the AA shows in the hunters, then you need to be taking it seriously.

That means not showing up in a plastic helmet, hair a mess, on a non-traditional hairy horse with non-traditional braids, clip job, etc. The photos that are posted are *not* tidy by any stretch. A show hunter should look POLISHED: a shine on the horse, on the tack, on the boots, hair in a net, clothes properly fitting. Turnout does not need to be expensive, but it does need to sparkle.

It's not about the breed of horse, though, there's a reason you never see them at the "A" shows in the hunter divisions, because they're as a general rule not competitive in those divisions and no one wants to waste thousands in entry fees. He'd have to be one heck of a world beater, not just a "clean" jumper (with his knees pointing down in one photo and uneven in the other, I wonder) to overcome ALL of these things even to pin. The competition at these shows is excellent, so if you want to be competitive, you need to step it up.

Best of luck to you - he does look like an extremely sweet horse and I'm sure whatever you decide to show him in, you'll have a good time.

[saitou_amaya]

Dude, you guys are harsh and don't read too carefully well either! I said he just got a handsome new trace clip yesterday, and those are some old pictures to begin with, from the fall. At the time I couldn't afford a new helmet but now I've got a Charles Owen. I just THOUGHT that since we have consistently been placing at the C and B shows that natural progression would be A rated. Not national circuit A rated but LOCAL A rated in Saint Louis where I live. But I wanted an honest opinion, and thanks all for it! I guess we will keep with the local stuff. Next year I am hoping to get another horse, but my friesian is my baby and I think he deserves to have fun too. I work hard at my shitty part time job to pay for him, so why not? I'm not going to change his friesian appearance because it in no way inhibits us from competing. That is just the hunter world being snooty. I pay just as much for my horses turn out as anyone else at shows does, just for a "different" look. :)
I'm kind of sorry I posted this, I was just looking for opinions on what judges would think of a non-traditional hunter breed and it you all had ever seen one before. It kind of hurts my feelings and confidence to read all this about how bad we look. I think it was a mistake to ask for opinions.

[HARROLDhasmyheart]

Dude, you guys are harsh and don't read too carefully well either! I said he just got a handsome new trace clip yesterday, and those are some old pictures to begin with, from the fall. At the time I couldn't afford a new helmet but now I've got a Charles Owen. I just THOUGHT that since we have consistently been placing at the C and B shows that natural progression would be A rated. Not national circuit A rated but LOCAL A rated in Saint Louis where I live. But I wanted an honest opinion, and thanks all for it! I guess we will keep with the local stuff. Next year I am hoping to get another horse, but my friesian is my baby and I think he deserves to have fun too. I work hard at my shitty part time job to pay for him, so why not? I'm not going to change his friesian appearance because it in no way inhibits us from competing. That is just the hunter world being snooty. I pay just as much for my horses turn out as anyone else at shows does, just for a "different" look. :)

A few comments...
1. As to the "harsh and don't read too carefully..." I'm pretty sure that people have read the posts correctly. You asked for their opinions, they gave them, and you may or may not have liked them.
2. Are you consistently placing at the B shows with the turnout in the pictures posted above? You are correct insofar as saying that your turnout does not inhibit you from competing, nor does it make it dangerous per say, but it will be out of place at an A or AA show. Most pony kids look more polished...I'm not saying this because I mean to compare your abilities to that of a pony kid, just that there is a very big gap in turnout expectations from A/AA and everything below.
3. You don't need to change his friesan appearance to compete. You will need to change it to place on the A/AA circuit in the hunters or eq.
4. I am very impressed that your part-time job can pay for board, training, and A shows (or any shows at all for that matter). Please let me know where you got this job so I can get one like it.
5.. "That is just the hunter world being snooty." BAHHH. See #1. Also, if you think the hunter world is so snooty, why are you eager to join it? Annd...I didn't show in the hunters, but my trainer (a local BNT and eventually a BNT) and barn held us all to very, very high turnout standards. We weren't allowed to even go into the jumper ring with anything out of place. So I believe it would be the "A/AA show world being snooty." Or, moreover, the "horse world being snooty" rather than the "hunter world being snooty."

Okay, that's al.

[HunterRider992]

Dude, you guys are harsh and don't read too carefully well either! I said he just got a handsome new trace clip yesterday, and those are some old pictures to begin with, from the fall. At the time I couldn't afford a new helmet but now I've got a Charles Owen. I just THOUGHT that since we have consistently been placing at the C and B shows that natural progression would be A rated. Not national circuit A rated but LOCAL A rated in Saint Louis where I live. But I wanted an honest opinion, and thanks all for it! I guess we will keep with the local stuff. Next year I am hoping to get another horse, but my friesian is my baby and I think he deserves to have fun too. I work hard at my shitty part time job to pay for him, so why not? I'm not going to change his friesian appearance because it in no way inhibits us from competing. That is just the hunter world being snooty. I pay just as much for my horses turn out as anyone else at shows does, just for a "different" look. :)
I'm kind of sorry I posted this, I was just looking for opinions on what judges would think of a non-traditional hunter breed and it you all had ever seen one before. It kind of hurts my feelings and confidence to read all this about how bad we look. I think it was a mistake to ask for opinions.

A few things:
1. Few horses are A and/or AA quality. Your horse is not. He's cute, but simply not an A show horse.
2. Just because you do decently locally does not mean you will do decently on the A level. It's just a higher standard.
3. Hunters is about trying to be as close to the ideal as possible. By refusing to conform to that ideal, you are missing the entire point of hunters.
4. It is NOT the "hunter world being snooty", it's part of the hunter ring. Judges can and do take points off for being "not traditional" in appearence. Feathers are untraditional.
5. I have yet to see a hunter horse with a trace clip, no offense, but most people go for a body clip, it looks neater.
6. Judges could care less what breed the horse is as long as it moves well and jumps in the traditional hunter form. Yours does not, but he could be a cute jumper :)

[HARROLDhasmyheart]

I'm kind of sorry I posted this, I was just looking for opinions on what judges would think of a non-traditional hunter breed and it you all had ever seen one before. It kind of hurts my feelings and confidence to read all this about how bad we look. I think it was a mistake to ask for opinions.

Quite a few people said you and your horse were cute together. He IS a cute horse, and you guys DO look like you have fun together. This thread was about whether he was suitable for the A/AA hunter ring. Nothing else. If I posted a picture of my old guy and asked if he was suitable for cart racing, I would most likely get the same response.

[fish]

Dear OP--

I think what people are saying is that type and turn out do matter in the hunter ring-- it is, after all, a sport in which form, style, and manners are very important. IMO, to enter the hunter ring with Fresian, as opposed to hunter, presentation, would be a bit like showing up at a prom in a bathing suit, a tennis game in a prom dress, etc. Now, add the judging component: you enter the waltz section of a ballroom dance competition and perform in a wet suit. How would you expect to be scored? Would it be "snotty" of other people to give you bewildered looks or bigotted of the judges to mark you down for your "untraditional" appearance?

People on this forum have been trying to give you honest answers to the question you asked-- which seemed to be about how well you and your Fresian would be likely to do at A hunter shows if you kept turn out you knew belonged in a very different (i.e. Fresian breed show) arena. You received honest replies.

Just out of curiosity: how would your horse do at a Fresian breed show with no feathers, a short mane, etc.? Would it be "snotty" of the Fresian fold to mark him down and/or wonder why he was there if you did that?

[magnolia73]

I don't see a problem with you going and having fun- but it is expensive fun- might your money be better spent elsewhere (perhaps saving for your new horse?). IMO, if you want to go get the A show experience- go for it- but remember that a big part of that experience is the meticulous grooming and preparations.

I kind of cringe when I read topics like this- then it gets twisted around to "hunters are snooty". No- there is just a pretty narrow type of performance that is rewarded and people who show hunters work hard to get that performance. And yes, there is a distinct turnout protocol and it seems disrespectful to go to the highest level show and not conform to that turnout. You don't see riders in dressage at Devon wearing puke TS and a blue hunt coat. You don't see WP riders at QH Congress with hunter braids and english chaps. If you want to try the highest level, at least have the courtesy to turn out properly to respect the tradition and protocol of the sport.


And I think people have done you a service being honest. It would be false to say- oh, yeah, no problem- just find 8 and get your changes and your golden. Oh- and no worries on the turnout- people don't give a shit. And you got a lot of reality checks on the price. I mean, if I went to the endurance forum and said, "hey- I have a slow TB mare- you think she can do OK in the tevis cup thise year? Oh and I won't be buying any endurance tack- just using my HJ stuff. I have successfully gone on several trail rides".... I'd hope they'd give me a reality check.

[gottagrey]

I think some of the posts about turnout were silly.. turnout is only part of the equation.. you asked about showing "special" breeds. Your breed /horse most likely does not possess the attributes that judges view as their ideal in a hunter. You asked for an opinion and this is what the majority of the posts said. Yes you can trim him - pull his mane, give him traditional braids but is that going to make him rounder, jump w/ his forelegs up, folded and square - probably not; is that clip and CO helmet going to make him trot or canter more like the typical hunter - probably not. - from the photos we've seen he appears not to be hunter material. But there's a lot of horses who aren't hunter material. You could have the most gorgeous Arabian - most likely we'd be saying the same thing; look at the thread about Irish Sport Horses in the Hunters - you've got a 50/50 chance that a ISH is going to be a good enough mover to compete in the Show Hunters (and what's funny about the ISH and RID is they are the "Classic Hunter Type" of days past ha haha)

There is a gorgeous TB at my barn - good scopey mover, nice jump to him - typical hunter material right - WRONG - the horse appears to ooze show hunter but he hates it. So now he's doing the jumpers and he's happy- as is his owner. My trainer has a lovely big grey horse - again looks the picture of a show hunter... wrong. He's 16.2 but doesn't have the step to get down the lines... so now she events him...

I think what everyone here was trying to tell you is have fun w/ your horse - find a job that's suitable for both of you - try dressage and eventing, or the jumpers.

[Smiles]

Just a reminder to the o.p. the winter shows at lake st. louis shows are all AA rated and the last winter show had around 300 to 400 horses at it. These are people going south for the winter circuits. Their horses are all going to be body clipped, braided, and groomed for an AA rated show. You will look out of place even with a trace clip. People are not being mean they just want to point out to you that if you are not going to put in the effort to present your horse as everyone else does then save yourself some money... Because you don't want to be parting with that kind of cash and only do half the job.

[Lucassb]

Dude, you guys are harsh and don't read too carefully well either! I said he just got a handsome new trace clip yesterday, and those are some old pictures to begin with, from the fall. At the time I couldn't afford a new helmet but now I've got a Charles Owen. I just THOUGHT that since we have consistently been placing at the C and B shows that natural progression would be A rated. Not national circuit A rated but LOCAL A rated in Saint Louis where I live.

Before you slam those who offered opinions, you might consider that you indicated you were "serious" about moving up to A and AA shows. You might have gotten slightly different responses had you asked about moving up on a local level. And while you may consider that trace clip handsome... it is not particularly appropriate for the hunter ring at even a LOCAL A show level.

I'm not going to change his friesian appearance because it in no way inhibits us from competing. That is just the hunter world being snooty. I pay just as much for my horses turn out as anyone else at shows does, just for a "different" look. :)

No one is asking you to change your horse's Friesian appearance, they are just pointing out that it isn't going to be particularly rewarded in the hunter ring. And that is truly not because anyone is being "snooty;" it's just reality. Several people have pointed out that it would be just challenging to take a Welsh hunter pony into a Friesian breed class and expect to do well.

For the record, it has nothing to do with how much you pay to turn your horse out. In fact, most of the best horsemen will tell you that it isn't about money, it is about doing the basics extraordinarily well. You can't buy anything that works as well as proper feed, appropriate exercise, and the diligent use of elbow grease and a rub rag.


I'm kind of sorry I posted this, I was just looking for opinions on what judges would think of a non-traditional hunter breed and it you all had ever seen one before. It kind of hurts my feelings and confidence to read all this about how bad we look. I think it was a mistake to ask for opinions.

Sounds like you didn't really want opinions; you wanted to show off your horse. And a lot of posters did comment on how cute and fun he looks. The fact that he doesn't look like a hunter doesn't detract from that, but the reality is that hunter judges don't reward cute and fun - they reward *performance,* which means a good jumping horse that shows a beautiful, athletic jump and a long, low, ground covering stride.

[Star Creek]

Dear OP--

I think what people are saying is that type and turn out do matter in the hunter ring-- it is, after all, a sport in which form, style, and manners are very important. IMO, to enter the hunter ring with Fresian, as opposed to hunter, presentation, would be a bit like showing up at a prom in a bathing suit, a tennis game in a prom dress, etc. Now, add the judging component: you enter the waltz section of a ballroom dance competition and perform in a wet suit. How would you expect to be scored? Would it be "snotty" of other people to give you bewildered looks or bigotted of the judges to mark you down for your "untraditional" appearance?

People on this forum have been trying to give you honest answers to the question you asked-- which seemed to be about how well you and your Fresian would be likely to do at A hunter shows if you kept turn out you knew belonged in a very different (i.e. Fresian breed show) arena. You received honest replies.

Just out of curiosity: how would your horse do at a Fresian breed show with no feathers, a short mane, etc.? Would it be "snotty" of the Fresian fold to mark him down and/or wonder why he was there if you did that?

I agree these are EXACTLY the points. As a teenager, I had a leopard appaloosa pony that I competed in the low level shows in the hunter and equitation division in Palm Beach. I also had a Thoroughbred mare that I competed in the same divisions, but gosh I loved that spotted pony. In the schooling shows and lower level stuff, we all did great. As we moved up to the higher level hunters, my TB mare and I did wonderful, but try as we might that pony just wouldn't be placed no matter how perfect she went around a course. I look back at pictures of us (many decades ago) and marvel at what a pretty mover and just 10+ form she had over fences with her knees up about her ears. I also laugh now at how completely out of place we were in those classes.

I know the feeling of loving your horse soooooooo much that you think he should be able to win at everything. I was much older before I realized why my pony couldn't win in the top level hunters. My father loved that crazy polka dotted pony just as much as me, which is how I got to spend a boat load of money taking the pony with my Thoroughbred to those shows.

Remember that at the high level the hunters are ALL about tradition and polish and conforming to a standard. As Fish so perfectly put it, it is no different in the breed shows. If you went to a Fresian show with his feathers shaved off and his mane short, tail thinned, you probably wouldn't place because your cute boy wouldn't be conforming to the breed standard. Fresians weren't hunters traditionally, so he doesn't fit the standard for the hunter division. He looks rocking cute though and like a great guy.

A couple of people suggested the jumpers if you really, really want to compete at the big A/AA shows. (I can understand wanting that too as the big shows are just soooooo much fun, but remember soooooo expensive too !) I remember when my pony and I were at a big show in Palm Beach and someone nicely suggested to my father that we should enter the appaloosa in jumper classes rather than the hunters. We switched classes that day and went on to CLEAN UP in the lower level jumpers for a number of years. We even beat some BNRs in the schooling classes because I was so light and my pony so handy on course. It was very fun to finally get the blue ribbons I always KNEW my pony deserved !

People here aren't being mean or snobby, just realistic. Remember too that some of them might think you are an adult -- and you know how direct adults can be to other adults. I think everyone is just trying to give you what you asked for: an honest opinion.

Whatever you do, take and keep lots of pictures. When you are old like me you will really, really enjoy looking back at your beautiful "special" horse.

Good luck and ride safe.

[Ghazzu]

Dude, you guys are harsh

Yes; they are. But they're stating facts.


and don't read too carefully well either! I said he just got a handsome new trace clip yesterday, and those are some old pictures to begin with, from the fall.

Even a full clip won't change the jumping style.


At the time I couldn't afford a new helmet but now I've got a Charles Owen.

If you're scrimping to buy a helmet, you need to download and look at the entry forms for an A/AA hunter show or three. The fees exceed the GNP of some small nations.


I just THOUGHT that since we have consistently been placing at the C and B shows that natural progression would be A rated. Not national circuit A rated but LOCAL A rated in Saint Louis where I live.

This is not at all clear, either from your original post or from this one--are you talking USEF rated, or whatever the state horsemen's association is rated?
B-I-G difference.



Next year I am hoping to get another horse, but my friesian is my baby and I think he deserves to have fun too. I work hard at my shitty part time job to pay for him, so why not?

What other real reason is there to show except to have fun, after all? If you'd be equally happy spending a thousand dollars to show at an AA hunter show and come home with nothing as to show for a few hundred at a local show and place, go for it.


I'm not going to change his friesian appearance because it in no way inhibits us from competing.


No; but it does show respect for the judge and for tradition. And it will 'inhibit' your chances of placing, aside from his jumping style.


That is just the hunter world being snooty. I pay just as much for my horses turn out as anyone else at shows does, just for a "different" look. :)


Then show in a different division.
It's not "snooty", any more than clipping the feathers would prohibit you from entering Freisian classes.

I breed and ride Arabs. I had one who was a very huntery type gelding whom I showed in the local hunters.
With a pulled and hunter braided mane. In appropriate tack and attire.



I'm kind of sorry I posted this, I was just looking for opinions on what judges would think of a non-traditional hunter breed and it you all had ever seen one before.

And you got exactly what you say you were looking for. Just because it wasn't the answer you wanted is no reason to be sorry you asked, is it?

Yes, people could have gone to the trouble of trying to phrase their answers in a more flowery version, but the take home message would be the same.

He may be a great horse, but he's not AA hunter material.

Big whoop. Neither is my favorite horse.

[Trixie]

That is just the hunter world being snooty. I pay just as much for my horses turn out as anyone else at shows does

It is NOT the hunter world being "snooty," though I love that any discussion where people disagree with somene's opinion on this forum turn into that.

It's about you saying you wanted to seriously compete in the "A" hunters and asking specifically if it's possible to do that on an inappropriate horse (ie, one that does not conform to the standard but still quite a nice horse) with inappropriate turnout. To which the answer is, YES, you can show... however, you would be putting yourself at an extreme disadvantage for a lot of money, and it's unlikely that you would do well.

If you want to discuss what it costs to turn a horse out nicely, I can tell you firsthand that it does not need to be expensive, so that arguement is completely out of the water. I've bought a gorgeous grand prix show coat for $40 and never paid more than $50 for a pair of breeches ever, and most of mine are TS. Scour the used racks, check Ebay. More importantly, tidiness and polish do not cost anything but elbow grease and attention to detail, and learning how to do these details properly for the sport you are entering shows that you respect the sport and its traditions.

I trace clip my guy in the winter, also. He's a very big thoroughbred. I also don't generally show in the winter, and if I do, it's local stuff. I would not walk into the ring at an "A" show with him trace clipped because it would be an automatic disadvantage - and when I'm paying a thousand bucks or so just to compete, I'm not interested in putting myself at an automatic disadvantage. Same goes for showing a non-traditional breed, non-hunter type braids, not wearing a hairnet, etc. Won't inhibit you from competing - but it WILL put you at an automatic disadvantage.

For me, this sport is too expensive to walk into the ring knowing that I'm at such a disadvantage. Therefore, I take all the steps to make sure I am as well-prepared as possible.

[Dazednconfused]

It is NOT the hunter world being "snooty," though I love that any discussion where people disagree with somene's opinion on this forum turn into that.

That is exactly right. Any rated show ring has rules, standards, and protocols. Showing up in the wrong clip, wrong braids, wrong outfit does automatically put you at a disadvantage - and this would occur whether you were showing arabians, quarter horses, or hunters. While it may not be against the rules in the rulebook - there is still a certain standard that is expected, and standing out in a bad way is always a good way to waste a lot of money and not place. I've seen plenty of people show up in the arab ring in split reins, a poorly fitted vest, with a horse that goes around with its nose in the air in a western pleasure class, and then be surprised when they don't place - then blame it on the arab ring being "snooty" (or worse yet, politics!). No. There's a standard that is expected, that's all. That doesn't mean you have to go out and buy the latest trends every year, but simply blending in and looking like you deserve to be there via grooming and turnout (clean tack, clean, shiny horse, basically correct and standard tack & bit costs you almost nothing) goes a long way to doing well.

Dress for the party or don't bother going...JMO :yes:

[sansibar]

Its also better that we tell you on here then you go to an A/AA show and hear people laughing behind your back. People WILL do that, I'll admit it sometimes I have been known to do that too, soley because hunters has guidelines, it is judged. Thats the sport, if you don't like 'opinions' then why do the hunters? The sport is solely based on the opinion of the judge.

If I entered a gymnastics competition and wore track pants, jacket and running shoes because I thought it was more comfortable than the tiny little outfits. Do you think I wouldn't get comments? Or I would be judged fairly? The answer is people would stair, laugh and I would not get judged fairly.

[Coreene]

Dude. Showing a Friesian in hunters at an A or AA show is just whacked. Big ass waste of time and money.

[horsegirl888]

You asked for opinions, not assurances. We (meaning the people reading and responding to your post) simply read what you wrote, looked at the pictures that you posted, and offered our opinion on what we saw. I am not sure why this is problematic, as actually I have felt that most of the opinions on this thread have been very diplomatically expressed.

In my humble opinion, having watched many local A shows, as well as competed in several local unrated shows around my area and judging just off of what you wrote and your pictures, you may not have much luck in "A" competition. Actually, even in the local unrated or schooling shows around here, you might find you need a bit of work to place where you may want to.

I haven't seen you ride or your horse move, but traditionally in hunterland, they are looking for a long-strided, flat-kneed, level topline-d, round jumping horse. I haven't seen a Friesian fit that description, which is not to say that one cannot, but it would be far from the ideal Friesian that would fit in at breed shows.

I am sorry that you have found many of the opinions "harsh" but as you stated that you were "serious" about competing at A/AA shows with your horse, I believe that most of the posters, including myself, are just trying to give you a bit of an idea of what to expect.

I have an Anglo-Arabian mare that I show in the hunters. This may not be a traditional breed, but her mane is pulled, tail not on the ground as many Arabian owners prefer it, and she moves and jumps quite well, although we don't expect too much at a bigger rated show. Our turnout is hunter- appropriate as well (pulled mane, etc). Our budget is such that we mostly stick to local and lower level rated shows, but as I do expect to try out a "B" and possibly a smaller "A" show next season, we make sure that we conform to the hunter ideals of turnout, movement, and jump as much as possible before spending the money.

Here's my "non-traditional" hunter breed:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=152446&l=e5ba3&id=1312343883

Best of luck with your horse (he is absolutely adorable and looks like such a kindhearted soul) in all of your pursuits.

-Horsegirl

[foursocks]

I understand that you might feel hurt, but people are being honest. Would you like to go spend literally thousands of dollars because no one pointed out some of the things that would keep your horse from being competitive in the hunters?

Here is a photo of my horse, below (he is wet, that is why his coat looks weird). When he is poking out his nose and doing his metronome canter on the longe he looks like Working Hunter, 1969. Under saddle he has the big, round, stylish jump that could win in decent company. He is big and handsome and a classic TB so he could stand out in a good way if he put down a perfect trip. HOWEVER: he doesn't generally go in a hunter frame. He likes to carry his head high and he tends to jump with a lot of verve- so there is no way I would waste my money showing him in the hunters.

In hand, he can look the part of a hunter- and if I rode the snot out of him I could probably tire him out enough to do the A/Os. Why would I do that? Find your horse's niche and enjoy competing within that. We do jumpers and that capitalizes on my boy's jumping ability and plays to his strengths instead of trying to ignore what makes him unsuitable to be a hunter.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a298/sproutsie/CIMG0269.jpg

[gottagrey]

In reading some of this it reminded me of one of my favorite books when I was a kid - some of you might remember - it was the Jr. Equitation School for Young Riders and basically focused on then young rider - Kathy Kushner (who rose to a stellar riding career and the first licensed female jockey) anyway the book starts off w/ her loading up her backyard pony which she dearly loved heading off to a show. She had cleaned him up, got in her show clothes which consisted of what she thought were smashing green breeches, green breeches YUCK. She immediately felt out of place, and realized there was more to this showing thing than just bathing her pony, loading him up and heading off to a show...she wanted to be more like the other riders, from Jr. Equitation... and so the story began..and ultimately her career.

[Alterageous]

I think Coreene said it best!:lol:

[Noctis]

Dude. Showing a Friesian in hunters at an A or AA show is just whacked. Big ass waste of time and money.

Well I was trying to be nice...but thanks for saying what I was thinking! :winkgrin:

[Star Creek]

Dude. Showing a Friesian in hunters at an A or AA show is just whacked. Big ass waste of time and money.

Yeah, I was trying to be nice too. So if you don't like all the nice posts, at least listen to Coreene.

[shawneeAcres]

In reading some of this it reminded me of one of my favorite books when I was a kid - some of you might remember - it was the Jr. Equitation School for Young Riders and basically focused on then young rider - Kathy Kushner (who rose to a stellar riding career and the first licensed female jockey) anyway the book starts off w/ her loading up her backyard pony which she dearly loved heading off to a show. She had cleaned him up, got in her show clothes which consisted of what she thought were smashing green breeches, green breeches YUCK. She immediately felt out of place, and realized there was more to this showing thing than just bathing her pony, loading him up and heading off to a show...she wanted to be more like the other riders, from Jr. Equitation... and so the story began..and ultimately her career.

I hesitated to reply to the OP but I too agree with most of the posts, that you are better off to show locally, "C" rated if you are having some success there and breed shows than to waste your money on "A" shows with your horse. I have some NICE hunters, traditional breeding etc, but most of them I wouldn't even consider taking to an "A" show although they are quite competitive at "C" level shows. It just would not be the smart thing to do.

But I also wanted to reply to this post about the Kathy Kusner story, I LOVED that book when growing up and read and re-read it so many times!!

[Ambrey]

Dude. Showing a Friesian in hunters at an A or AA show is just whacked. Big ass waste of time and money.

Coreene is on a roll lately, LOL!

I know nothing about hunters, but was wondering what your trainer says about your horse's chances at the higher rated shows? It would seem he would have both the knowledge of your horse's capabilities and the knowledge of the local show scene.

I have a friend who showed her Percheron in hunters, and is preparing for her dressage debut this year. She's all about the whacked. I'm not sure whether she showed the higher rated shows, though- I suspect she did not. And she didn't have the hair issue, either.

[Coreene]

And to clarify, I wouldn't take my yummy WB to show in hunters. Loves to jump, but even if he could lay down a perfect trip, he still wouldn't place, because he absolutely does not move like a hunter. So either do jumpers or do C or breed shows, and the $$$ you save will buy you a lot more shows.

[mypaintwattie]

When I got my non-traditional horse, like you, I had A circuit hunter aspirations. Until I actually spent some quality time at the shows watching the hunters, and realized that my brightly colored spotted stock type horse would never place, no matter how nicely she moves. So, I had to change my goals. We will do the B/C local shows, which are still very competitive in SoCal, probably in the jumpers. We will also show on the breed circuit. Yes, I was disappointed because I love the hunters, but if I want to show my horse, it wouldn't be worth the entry fees to show against a herd of TB's and WB's and not place. Keep showing on the local circuits, and try the breed circuit, you might like showing there too, and even end up at nationals.

[rugbygirl]

Sometimes the truth hurts.

I ride a Clydesdale in Hunter. We will only place if every other horse falls down and/or runs out of the ring. That has happened a few times, so I have a few ribbons. From local shows, nothing higher. :lol: I love her, and she's a darn good jumper and mover, for a Clydesdale, but I can't expect her to give me a decent Hunter trip. It wouldn't be fair. She's built to pull a wagon.

Anyway, that doesn't stop us from trying, and here's what the rules say (I went to an "A" show, but it wasn't very expensive):

--> Braiding required. I did a very painstaking running braid, slicked down and trimmed. It looked nice. I did a fish tail braid on the tail, and banged the ends. Leaving the ends natural looked very untidy.
--> My coat fits well, it was clean. Starched show shirt.
--> Fitted boots (not custom or anything) and I actually polished them and whatnot
--> No fancy expensive helmet, but it is appropriate for the ring (not a schooling helmet)
--> I took my rhinestone browband off and scrubbed and polished all my black tack.
--> Clean, plain white saddle pad
--> White feather scrubbed clean, trimmed neatly, blowdried and combed so that it was straight, not wavy. This makes it look tidier.
--> Haircoat shedded out with a blade, show sheened and glossy
--> Muzzle whiskers trimmed on top, left natural on the bottom jaw, ear hair trimmed flush (not shaved)


This was what I was led to believe is kind of the MINIMUM.

If my trainer actually thought we had a snowball's chance, she would have make me body clip (including feather), pull the mane and hunter braid, braid and trim the tail and clip the entire face. Oh, and buy actual Hunter tack in Havana or Oakbark.

[LockeMeadows]

Whatever you do, take and keep lots of pictures. When you are old like me you will really, really enjoy looking back at your beautiful "special" horse.

Good luck and ride safe.

What a wonderful post.

To the OP; the hunters is all about tradition. Movement should be long and low because it saves energy when you're hunting. The jump should be round with knees up because it is the safest way to get over a fence. You also do not want to have your horse hang a leg over a solid fence and flip. Manes and tails are braided with small hunter braids to prevent them from getting caught in the brush. Rat catchers/stock ties are used so that if the horse or rider become injured, it can be used to hold pressure on a wound that is bleeding. And the list goes on and on.

You want to take your non-traditional horse and do well in a sport that is all about conformity. It appears you are a teenager and maybe this is your way of sticking your middle finger up to society, similar to the gothic teenagers that walk around in black clothes and face paint that are completely against fitting in with the crowd, but then bitch when people make fun of them.

If you take your horse to an "A" show, people will laugh. Even if your horse is turned out to the 9's, it is still going to stick out like a sour thumb. Instead of trying to fit a circle into a square, why don't you find your horse's strengths and allow your horse to shine; maybe lower level Dressage? This way, you don't become bitter from being in a world where your horse does not fit.

[2DogsFarm]

You asked
You got told
Be thankful for the truth

My TotallyAcceptableBreed TB won his Hunter Champion ribbons based solely on his ability to jump the snot out of a course.
We rarely pinned in the hacks as he just does not have Hunter movement (too much suspension and knee).
Don't expect to force your horse into a Hunter Mold if he doesn't naturally have it.
If your idea of fun is spending $$$$$$ just to go round on an AA course, then go for it.
If you're looking for ribbons you need to rethink the plan.

[findeight]

Hunter Stereotype???

NO.

Round hole.

Into which OP is trying to pound a square peg.

Just exactly what "BNT" in St Louis is helping her hammer here?

[Giddy-up]

Just exactly what "BNT" in St Louis is helping her hammer here?

That's what I wondered too.

Since you are so close to STL & the winter shows are happening right now, why don't you drop over there & watch the classes you would be showing in. I think you'll get a very good idea of what is "competitive" then & what it looks like. I'd also pick up a show bill & take a look at what it will cost you to attend. I think the summer STL shows run about the same as the winter STL shows.

[findeight]

Well, OP is now saying it is a Local series of "A" rated shows....I guess Missouri H/J Association?

Still, she will need others to have some bad luck if they are anything like the Locals of surrounding states that are affiliate approved. Even the 2' Beginner...which are actually the only division that is growing and typically have the most entries.

IMO a trainers job is to gently point a client in the right direction. That is not show ring Hunters with this one, doesn't have the jump or movement to go into that round hole. On any level.

At least OP is finding out here instead of wasting anything from $300 to 1500...which leads me to question the "BNT".

[kates93]

Yes; they are. But they're stating facts.
you need to download and look at the entry forms for an A/AA hunter show or three. The fees exceed the GNP of some small nations.


This cracked me up. I have to confess, when I wrote the check(s) for my first A hunter show, a series of thoughts flashed through my mind, most of which had to do with the days on a tropical beach the same amount of money could buy me (had similar thoughts at the actual show, as I sat in my show gear under a rain coat, waiting for my rounds) :lol:

Edited to add, I actually did show an "unconventional" breed there, half TB/half appy ... a horse I was leasing from my show barn. And we did well--champion in adult eq and missed the reserve in the hunters by 1 pt (partly because we did not place well in the hack, as she does not move well enough to do so). But she is conventional looking and impeccably turned out, at the end of the day, and we were only doing long stirrup hunters, plus she is a good, good, good girl. I'm sure it didn't hurt that this (rather BN) barn has been showing her for years, so she is familiar to many judges. Here we are doing our long stirrup business (http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/kesmith80/Summer%20Classic%20I--Me/DSC_0164.jpg)

[2DogsFarm]

I have to confess, when I wrote the check(s) for my first A hunter show, a series of thoughts flashed through my mind, most of which had to do with the days on a tropical beach the same amount of money could buy me (had similar thoughts at the actual show, as I sat in my show gear under a rain coat, waiting for my rounds) :lol:

Amen, sister!
I believe my Epiphany came when I did back-to-back rounds in scorching July heat and came out wondering if I was gonna hurl or pass out first....
And for this I had paid How Much???

[Duckz]

OP, if you really want to take your horse to the hunter shows, why not try an equitation division? His movement and jumping style won't take you out of the ribbons like in the hunter divisions, and he doesn't need to be fast like in the jumpers. Hard work and a well schooled horse will get you somewhere in the eq classes even against fancy horses, not so much in the hunter classes. Just a thought :)

[heartinrye]

OP, if you really want to take your horse to the hunter shows, why not try an equitation division? His movement and jumping style won't take you out of the ribbons like in the hunter divisions, and he doesn't need to be fast like in the jumpers. Hard work and a well schooled horse will get you somewhere in the eq classes even against fancy horses, not so much in the hunter classes. Just a thought :)

Lets be honest, even in equitation at an A/AA show (even some B shows) if you tromp into the ring with feathers, a trace clip and a running braid you are going to have to put down one hell of a trip and hope that a lot of people fall/refuse/go off course to truly have a chance at a ribbon.

[sansibar]

Lets be honest, even in equitation at an A/AA show (even some B shows) if you tromp into the ring with feathers, a trace clip and a running braid you are going to have to put down one hell of a trip and hope that a lot of people fall/refuse/go off course to truly have a chance at a ribbon.

My friend was horseless at a final and some one had a draft cross there which had A LOT of draft in it so she ended up borrowing it for eq, she put down amazing rounds, but the horse moved like a draft, and compared to the warmbloods in the ring it didn't even compare. And I don't think that the OP's eq is exactly ready for the equitation ring...

[Duckz]

Lets be honest, even in equitation at an A/AA show (even some B shows) if you tromp into the ring with feathers, a trace clip and a running braid you are going to have to put down one hell of a trip and hope that a lot of people fall/refuse/go off course to truly have a chance at a ribbon.

Working under the assumption that she clips, pulls, braids, and trims to the standards of the equitation ring; also assuming her horse has the capability to politely jump a round, do lead changes, make it around the rollback turn, not balk at the skinny, etc.; also assuming that the OP can polish her equitation to be competitive at some level; then yes, they will have a shot at a ribbon in an equitation class whereas her horse wouldn't have any kind of chance in a hunter division.

I'm making a lot of assumptions here ;) I also have a non-traditional breed and love the hunter shows so I can understand where the OP is coming from.

[heartinrye]

My friend was horseless at a final and some one had a draft cross there which had A LOT of draft in it so she ended up borrowing it for eq, she put down amazing rounds, but the horse moved like a draft, and compared to the warmbloods in the ring it didn't even compare. And I don't think that the OP's eq is exactly ready for the equitation ring...

Oh I didn't mean anything against draft horses, I've ridden come crosses and enjoyed them, I just meant the appearance of this particular one would hurt her chances significantly.

[leelee]

Dude, you guys are harsh and don't read too carefully well either! I said he just got a handsome new trace clip yesterday, and those are some old pictures to begin with, from the fall. At the time I couldn't afford a new helmet but now I've got a Charles Owen. I just THOUGHT that since we have consistently been placing at the C and B shows that natural progression would be A rated. Not national circuit A rated but LOCAL A rated in Saint Louis where I live. But I wanted an honest opinion, and thanks all for it! I guess we will keep with the local stuff. Next year I am hoping to get another horse, but my friesian is my baby and I think he deserves to have fun too. I work hard at my shitty part time job to pay for him, so why not? I'm not going to change his friesian appearance because it in no way inhibits us from competing. That is just the hunter world being snooty. I pay just as much for my horses turn out as anyone else at shows does, just for a "different" look. :)
I'm kind of sorry I posted this, I was just looking for opinions on what judges would think of a non-traditional hunter breed and it you all had ever seen one before. It kind of hurts my feelings and confidence to read all this about how bad we look. I think it was a mistake to ask for opinions.


Changing his appearance is not the hunter world being snooty. We are saying that if you want to show rated hunters, then you have to make him look like a HUNTER. Pulled, braided mane, a full body clip, including getting rid of the feathers. You will look odd if you do not do these things.

But if you'd like, take him to a rated show looking as he does and prove us all wrong. But just so you know, it will be offensive to the judge.

[sansibar]

Oh I didn't mean anything against draft horses, I've ridden come crosses and enjoyed them, I just meant the appearance of this particular one would hurt her chances significantly.

Ya I agree, I love some draft crosses. And if the OP wanted to place I agree that A LOT of falls, off courses or refusals would have to happen to have a shot at ribbon contention....

[GettingBack]

I have a lovely draft-cross sporthorse and wouldn't dream (even turned out to the 9's) of taking him into the hunter ring at an A rated show. I would take him into the Eq ring, PERHAPS, once he gets to absolutely perfect (if his soundness holds up) and once I'm re-riding well enough to be competitive.

AND I have to have maxed out the local Bs and Cs.

It's not that he's not a wonderful guy (he is), it's not that he's an off breed and everyone would laugh at us (they probably wouldn't, he looks like an old-style warmblood) - it's that he's only *mostly* hunter type. He's a good mover (if a little much suspension) and will go naturally with a very flat topline. But he's *heavy* so even though he moves well, he's kind of...well...clunky.

I just wouldn't waste my money - there is no point.

Enjoy your horse - I'm sure he's fabulous. I'm enjoying mine :D

[gottagrey]

This post sort of reminds me of when I took my horse to Upperville to do the Irish Draught Division. Some background - I have an Irish Sport Horse - registered and all that..he came from across the pond - i.e. I picked him out of the green fields of ireland, put him on a plane. Done. He hunted w/ the Galway Blazers. Now he has some Draught Look but is not that drafty/heavy looking... So into the Upperville Irish Draught Partbred Class. Oh the judges loved him... oh if we could take any horse home he would be the one they said... !st place - not us, 2nd place nope, 3rd place - still not us; 4th place - he's lovely but lacks TYPE ! Ha ha ha. So my born and bred Irish boy was not Irish enough for the Irish Judges :lol::lol:

the point of this story is that sometimes it just doesn't matter what breed, what class/division you enter, how dressed up or down you are - if the judge doesn't think your horse is their "type" that's it... so why enter a class where the odds are already heavily stacked against you?

If OP thinks some of these posts are a harsh dose of reality...what is going to happen when she pulls into a AA show... and see's what those horses look like. I think my horse is a pretty attractive horse..a lot of people tell me how handsome he is... oh but when we go to an A show... now my "handsome" boy ain't so handsome anymore...that's just the sad hard truth...

[Ambrey]

I chatted with my friend yesterday about this thread- she showed her purebred Percheron in hunters for quite a few years.

Her take on it is that if you are on an off breed, everything else has to be spotless- make sure there is nothing "different" about anything, because your horse will already stand out.

She did not show A/AA shows, but even at the local level she said there would be judges who would give her ribbons in everything and judges who wouldn't.

And she (who is the queen of using off breeds) said that she knew a few friesians in hunters, and none of them did well at the upper levels because their conformation just wasn't suited to the rounded, smooth outline the judges want over jumps.

Thank you for an interesting opportunity to learn a bit more about the hunter scene :) It was an interesting conversation, and I thought I'd share it.

[Duckz]

Oh the judges loved him... oh if we could take any horse home he would be the one they said... !st place - not us, 2nd place nope, 3rd place - still not us; 4th place - he's lovely but lacks TYPE ! Ha ha ha. So my born and bred Irish boy was not Irish enough for the Irish Judges :lol::lol:

:lol: I've had judges actually stop me and comment how much they love my horse, they'd love to take him home as a field hunter, such a beautiful animal, etc... and then we are pinned dead last in the hack ;)

[CacheDawnTaxes]

First off, I'd like to say good for you! I took a Friesian to a schooling show and she did quite well. She also went cross country and won her class. ;)

Anyway, if you want to do and have the money, why not? The mare I rode was more the sport style and not the baroque style, so had little knee action, a longer stride, and could trot long and low.

You will stand out, but depending on the competition at that particular show, if the horse has good form o/f, you may end up in the ribbons. You'd just have to be extra special.

When I showed, I did not clip the legs or pull the mane, as the owner didn't want it. I french braided the mane, which looked decent.

What do you know, I found some pictures!

In the hunter class, it is not me riding, I was riding another horse in the same class, and there was a girl there that wanted to jump her, so I said, why not? She doesn't have great from o/f, but the fences are super tiny. The pictures cross country are of me (in the red polo). Please excuse the eq, it was her first time, and I had NO idea what she would do, but she was fantastic!

http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/thumbpage.aspx?e=3200063

She is #820


Good for the kid. Taking in the fact it was both the horse and the rider's first time congrats to them. Shows quite a bit about the mare having anyone get on and ride.

It's a great post, I really appreciate the starting of this topic as I have been wondering the same thing. I own a Canadian and tho he's just a youngster I want to show him at rated shows at some point. Tho I would have no issues clipping his legs to get rid of the bit of feathering he has, the mane and tail *cough* I can't imagine cutting(tho if it's gotta go, its gotta go).

Does anyone know where to find Hunter/Jumper regulations regarding these rules for showing online? I'm local to Alberta (southern alberta) and haven't been able to find the right places online.

Thanks again for the thread.

[JenEM]

CacheDawn, if you're talking about turnout rules, there's really not much official. Nothing in the USEF rulebook says "thou shalt not have hairy fetlocks" :winkgrin: It's just understood, and a part of what is considered appropriate turnout. Horses are just supposed to present a neat, tidy appearance. Clipping and pulling the mane are part of that, and judges are permitted to penalize unconventionality, as well as being tasked with judging the suitability of the horse to it's task.

Going to an A just to go is throwing away an awful lot of money. I do have a nice, cute TB mare who I'd like to show at some local rateds one day, if it turns out she's going the aptitude. What am I doing with her now? Putting on local miles, where we can show for the whole year on what one AA show would cost us! There's no reason to throw that kind of cash away when we can't be competitive, and frankly, it's silly to me to spend that much money to show in the 2'6" unrated section at an A show, when I can do the same thing at a number of nicely run local shows around here for a fraction of the cost.

OP, your horse looks like a sweet guy, and it's obvious you love him. But you can have just as much fun, and be more competitive, in local shows with him, for less money. Heck, branch out, if he's good at dressage, try that, or even some entry-level events :yes: A solid citizen of a horse can always do well at lower levels, but it takes a truly exceptional horse to succeed at the upper levels of the sport. Sometimes, no matter how much we love our horses, we have to accept their limitations.

[Serah]

OP, I think its really important that you remember that no one is directly insulting your horse. I'm sure he is a great horse, and y'all look like you are a great team and having a lot of fun...

Honestly, if he were to go to a AA show, proper turnout and all, and was capable of winning, he would be a very poor representative of the Fresian breed. What I'm saying is that the less "huntery" your horse is the more he truly represents what the Fresian breed is supposed to represent.

It doesn't make him any less a horse, it doesn't make him less valuable or less lovable, it just makes him exactly what he was bred to be. A fresian. My stallion is a wonderful hunter, he fits the mold beautifully. I could let his "feathers" grow out and his mane and I could dye him black and still NEVER place at a Fresian breed show. That doesn't make the Fresian people 'snooty' it means my horse is NOT A FRESIAN.

This is why we have different breeds and different disciplines. Breeders spend a lot of time and money to make horses proper representatives of their respective breeds. Your horse was not bred to be a hunter, or a jumper for that matter. He would probably beat any of the posters in the Hunter/Jumper threads at any Fresian show.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying your horse in any way you choose. If you want to make him a hunter, go for it, but you can't be offended when he doesn't pin.

You asked us if he would pin at an AA show. He will not, UNLESS he moves nothing like a fresian and is built nothing like a fresian, and jumps nothing like a fresian. That doesn't mean we are snooty and anti-fresians, its just not the horse bred for this specific discipline. Just as my Belgian Warmblood is not the horse for the fresian breed shows.

[Small Change]

CacheDawnTaxes - You'll want to take a look at the Equine Canada Hunter/Jumper/Equitation/Hack rule book, which you can find here (http://www.equinecanada.ca/images/stories/2009_Rules/English/18dec08/section_g_2009_(clean-copy)_18dec08-e.pdf). Hunter is Chapter 3. I don't believe there are any specific rules pertaining to extra hair in the rule book for hunters, but there are specifics for the hack division (found later in the same section of the rules).

As the above poster suggested, the best idea is for you to go watch a few classes at the level you'd like to compete, and soak up exactly what the expectations are for you and your horse.

[eqrider1234]

OP, I think its really important that you remember that no one is directly insulting your horse. I'm sure he is a great horse, and y'all look like you are a great team and having a lot of fun...

Honestly, if he were to go to a AA show, proper turnout and all, and was capable of winning, he would be a very poor representative of the Fresian breed. What I'm saying is that the less "huntery" your horse is the more he truly represents what the Fresian breed is supposed to represent.

It doesn't make him any less a horse, it doesn't make him less valuable or less lovable, it just makes him exactly what he was bred to be. A fresian. My stallion is a wonderful hunter, he fits the mold beautifully. I could let his "feathers" grow out and his mane and I could dye him black and still NEVER place at a Fresian breed show. That doesn't make the Fresian people 'snooty' it means my horse is NOT A FRESIAN.

This is why we have different breeds and different disciplines. Breeders spend a lot of time and money to make horses proper representatives of their respective breeds. Your horse was not bred to be a hunter, or a jumper for that matter. He would probably beat any of the posters in the Hunter/Jumper threads at any Fresian show.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying your horse in any way you choose. If you want to make him a hunter, go for it, but you can't be offended when he doesn't pin.

You asked us if he would pin at an AA show. He will not, UNLESS he moves nothing like a fresian and is built nothing like a fresian, and jumps nothing like a fresian. That doesn't mean we are snooty and anti-fresians, its just not the horse bred for this specific discipline. Just as my Belgian Warmblood is not the horse for the fresian breed shows.

very well said. And please never say that the hunter world is "snotty" or "snooty" or whatever you said, because in all honesty that could be said about every other horse industry, including the breeed circuts, not just hunters jumpers or dressage people.

[Kristen]

He does seem like a good boy, but he is not appropriate for A and AA level hunters. It doesn't make him a bad horse, it's just not the right place for him. It'd be like taking a shetland pony into the Grand Prix...just not the right place for that little pony! No one is going to stop you from going into the ring, but you would be wasting your money.

[pooh]

Have you ever consided just doing combined tests if your horse enjoys jumping and you've done a little dressage??? I have a Mustang that I keep threatening to take to a local hunter show just to stir the pot a little ( I used to do local hunters on a QH).
As much as I hate to say it, you are not going to be competitive in a rated show - especially with all the subjectivity. But then again, objectively - how many Friesians do you see galloping out in the hunt fields - if that is what H/J is supposed to be - you need to rethink your choices.
I love taking my Mustang to dressage, combined test and HT - since he is a "special breed" he turns alot of heads and is usually the topic of conversation at the warm up ring. He places in the top 3 in general - would I expect that at a H/J show - no way - but would consider a local show for the experience for him and just to have fun.

[CacheDawnTaxes]

CacheDawnTaxes - You'll want to take a look at the Equine Canada Hunter/Jumper/Equitation/Hack rule book, which you can find here (http://www.equinecanada.ca/images/stories/2009_Rules/English/18dec08/section_g_2009_(clean-copy)_18dec08-e.pdf). Hunter is Chapter 3. I don't believe there are any specific rules pertaining to extra hair in the rule book for hunters, but there are specifics for the hack division (found later in the same section of the rules).

As the above poster suggested, the best idea is for you to go watch a few classes at the level you'd like to compete, and soak up exactly what the expectations are for you and your horse.

You've just made my day. Thank you very much for your help!

[Small Change]

You're very welcome. :)

[Bugs-n-Frodo]

Why don't you do dressage with your Fresian (where he has more of a chance of being appreciated for his Fresian qualities) and just cross train over fences at home. That way, there are no breed prejudices against him. If you are getting a new horse next year just wait until then to show the hunters and get a tradition hunter breed. OR, take him to combined training shows. I have been to A shows, I showed at Culpepper. I had a traditional breed and she was spiffed to the nines and let me tell you, the competition is STIFF! We brought home a few ribbons but definitely not every time out. And, on that note, I did NOT show in the AA or A/O classes which are HUGELY competitive, as are Childrens and Juniors.

[LookinSouth]

But then again, objectively - how many Friesians do you see galloping out in the hunt fields - if that is what H/J is supposed to be - you need to rethink your choices.
.

Actually they do exist. There is someone on the hunting forum that hunts a Friesan and that is not the first I've heard of the breed in the hunt field.

Hunt horses are not about meeting specific breed or type ideal. It is about being on a safe, responsive, respectful horse that can keep up with the hounds, stand at checks, keep it's place in the field and handle the terrain. Draft crosses, Morgans, standardbreds, haflingers and many other breeds are ALL found in the hunt field but would likely be laughed out of the show hunter ring. Of course it's nice to be on a fancy show hunter type horse in the hunt field but it is far from a requirement. And I don't know any foxhunter that prefers pretty/fancy to safe/reliable.

Pretty is as pretty does. Very few hunts would discriminate against the breed of one's mount once that horse has proven to be able to get the job done in the hunt field.

[galwaybay]

Actually they do exist. There is someone on the hunting forum that hunts a Friesan and that is not the first I've heard of the breed in the hunt field.

Hunt horses are not about meeting specific breed or type ideal. It is about being on a safe, responsive, respectful horse that can keep up with the hounds, stand at checks, keep it's place in the field and handle the terrain. Draft crosses, Morgans, standardbreds, haflingers and many other breeds are ALL found in the hunt field but would be laughed out the show hunter ring. Yeah it's nice to be on a nice fancy hunter type horse in the hunt field but it is far from a requirement.

Pretty is as pretty does. Very few hunts would discriminate against the breed of one's mount once that horse has proven to be able to get the job done in the hunt field.

Once upon a time the ideal "hunter" was one that would be suitable for hunting (and take care of rider..) I would venture to say that many of today's show "hunters" wouldn't make it in the hunt field... at least not w/o having their trainer prep them first:lol::lol: that's why it would be nice to see some shows offer a genuine "field hunter" type of class or ones like heavy, middle and lightweight hunters... but that will probably never happen unless a local show organization gives it a whirl...

[LookinSouth]

that's why it would be nice to see some shows offer a genuine "field hunter" type of class or ones like heavy, middle and lightweight hunters... but that will probably never happen unless a local show organization gives it a whirl...


I really wish such classes would be offered as well at local show organizations. However, several of the hunts up my way such as Myopia and Norfolk DO offer Field Hunter horse shows ( outside courses over natural jumps) and Field hunter classes at their horse shows (though they are only once a year)

Don't forget about Field hunter trials either:)

To the OP, if you really dream about making your Friesan into a "hunter" you could always go foxhunting with the REAL hunters:winkgrin:

[galwaybay]

Hey LookinSouth -

Yes a few of the local hunts around here do have those type of classes...I've been asked a couple of times to help w/ some small local show series - we have a pretty large group of fox hunters, eventers, western riders here. Seems like I'm one of the few people that would like to come up w/ a prize list that would attract some of those folks rather than just the tired (i'm sorry but what can i say) pre-short stirrup, mini stirrup, short stirrup, preadult prechildren's same old same old classes that every other show in the area offers... anyway my ideas get tossed out and guess what the shows are small..

[Trixie]

Pretty is as pretty does. Very few hunts would discriminate against the breed of one's mount once that horse has proven to be able to get the job done in the hunt field.

Of course, the same thing goes for show hunters: pretty is as pretty does. If the horse walks in there moving like a world beater, with a world beater jump, nails his 8 spots and goes perfectly in the manner of which a show hunter should go... we don't discriminate against breeds, here, either :) It's just that some breeds have a distinct advantage over others, they are far more likely to be capable of walking in and being a world beater.

We do discriminate against dirty and messy, then again, so do foxhunters. :winkgrin:

[Madeline]

Somehow I cannot get the lyrics of that Carole King song out of my mind....

"I feel the earth move, under my feet..."

Not trying to be mean, but you don't bring a lacrosse stick to a tennis match and expect to do well.

[LookinSouth]

It's just that some breeds have a distinct advantage over others

that's where the discrimination comes in...

The hunt field has no parameters in which any select breed or group of breeds has a distinct advantage. Success in the hunt field is largely based on each individuals temperment, fitness, soundness and reliability. These qualities have nothing to do with a specific breed or "type". Nor does any select group of breeds have a distinct advantage. No one in the hunt field cares if your horse has a trot and/or canter with too much knee action, a high head carriage and doesn't lope around with a metronome canter.

A horse of any breed that can keep up with the hounds, jump the fences ( or go around tactfully), stand at checks and maintain control in the field is welcome in nearly any hunt in the country. Of course there are exceptions but I would say they are in the minority.

[Won For Fun]

To the OP,
You knew when you posted this that your horse did not fit into the discipline standard or you would not have asked. Then, you call people who basically said the same thing, snooty. You knew it when you wrote the original post. Very few horses cross over from breed shows to hunter shows at the highest level.

Also, in your pictures you had only one rein on your pelham hooked to the bottom ring. When you show at an AA or A show, you do need to use two reins on your pelham. One rein is not acceptable unless you have a converter strap and that is untraditional as well.

Can you show in an AA or A show? Yes, you can as long as you can write a check or have someone else write a check for you. BUT, it is the same as showing up for a job interview in sweats. Are you the same talented person capable of doing the job? Yes, but you won't be taken seriously. It is your money, spend it however you want.

[Serah]

[quote/Trixie;3777294] It's just that some breeds have a distinct advantage over others

that's where the discrimination comes in...

The hunt field has no parameters in which any select breed or group of breeds has a distinct advantage. Success in the hunt field is largely based on each individuals temperment, fitness, soundness and reliability. These qualities have nothing to do with a specific breed or "type". Nor does any select group of breeds have a distinct advantage. No one in the hunt field cares if your horse has a trot and/or canter with too much knee action, a high head carriage and doesn't lope around with a metronome canter.

A horse of any breed that can keep up with the hounds, jump the fences ( or go around tactfully), stand at checks and maintain control in the field is welcome in nearly any hunt in the country. Of course there are exceptions but I would say they are in the minority.

So you don't believe there are specific breeds that have better temperments, fitness, soundess, and reliability for the hunt??? And foxhunters don't have a "type"??? No breed has a disadvantage???? Trixie is not saying that some breeds have and advantage solely because of the brand on their hip, shes saying some breeds have an advantage because they were BRED to be hunters!!

Sure any breed may have an equal opportunity as a hilltopper or on a more laid back hunt, but the OP is asking about the elite circuit where the upper echelon meets to compete...

[Trixie]

The hunt field has no parameters in which any select breed or group of breeds has a distinct advantage.

That's untrue, it absolutely does. A TB has a distinct advantage over say, a shetland pony or a clydesdale for the ability to go first flight. It's downright simpler for a horse built for the job to do the job, which was the point of my post.

Same thing goes in the show ring. A horse built to do the job will have a far easier time of doing the job in the manner expected than one that is not. It's been pointed out a thousand times that if the animal jumps like Rox Dene, no one's really going to care WHAT breed it is. Regardless of breed, the horse needs to be able to do the job to the standard expected. I stand by my post that this is easier for some breeds than for others, due to breed characteristics.

Thats not "discrimination." :rolleyes:

[eqrider1234]

that's where the discrimination comes in...

The hunt field has no parameters in which any select breed or group of breeds has a distinct advantage. Success in the hunt field is largely based on each individuals temperment, fitness, soundness and reliability. These qualities have nothing to do with a specific breed or "type". Nor does any select group of breeds have a distinct advantage. No one in the hunt field cares if your horse has a trot and/or canter with too much knee action, a high head carriage and doesn't lope around with a metronome canter.

A horse of any breed that can keep up with the hounds, jump the fences ( or go around tactfully), stand at checks and maintain control in the field is welcome in nearly any hunt in the country. Of course there are exceptions but I would say they are in the minority.

yes but we are not talking about hunting in a field, we are talking about showing with the best of the best in the A/AA circut. Sure it should not be based on breed or what brand your horse has, but the reason that it sometimes is is that these horses were bred for their job which is why they do it so well which is why people say that their is discrimination towards other breeds when in reality they just dont do the job as well. As others have said do the grand prix riders discriminate towards quarter horses because it is unorthadox to take one into the level 8 jumper classes? sure they may because quarter horses arent bred for that so it isnt fair to the horse in most cases, sure there are exceptions, but look at them they look the type and fit the description for the job, they also look the part. The OPs horse does not look the part, frankly in any way shape or form, so for me in the end it comes up to why would the OP want to set her and her horse up for failure?

[magnolia73]

Any (suitable) horse can hunt. Show hunters were originally meant to show off the best, most suitable hunter. One that moved smoothly, with ease, jumped well and safely, looked attractive, one who's conformation would lend itself to staying sound for running and jumping.

Now, whether or not the ideal today would make a suitable field hunter is arguable- LOL, that explosive jump might be a liability.

The greater point is that foxhunting is an activity in which you follow the hounds hunting the fox. It is not a competition and the point is to have a horse that you can safely ride in the conditions you hunt. Show hunters is a competition, and a subjective one at that where a judge watches a class of horses perform and chooses the one most suitable to his/her ideal, an ideal that is shaped by some basic parameters of performance, but also shaped by that judges ideal image of a hunter. They do discriminate- that's why you pay the $25/$50/$500 for the class- to see what that judge thinks of your horse on that day against that company.

[LookinSouth]

I am well aware of the differences between what is expected at an AA hunter show versus the field hunter. I am NOT encouraging the OP to show her Friesan in the hunters but by all means the horse COULD foxhunt. I do encourage her to seek out that possibility if interested.:)

I was responding to the point that " you don't see Friesans out galloping in the hunt field"...

Actually you do....and many other "unconventional" hunter breeds...

Trixie- if you must nitpick I was referring to hunting in general. As in MOST Arabs, Friesans what have you could have some place in the hunt field (i.e. 2nd flight or hilltoppers) and be perfectly acceptable. A hunting fit Friesan ( or shetland for that matter) could potentially outrun an unfit TB or a wimpy show ring hothouse flower that cannot balance correctly on uneven terrain or brave across boggy fields. That is the point.

There are many of 1st flight hunters out there on 3/4 drafts or draft crosses who might argue that their horses can keep up with the TB's just fine while out hunting ( Does the RID ring a bell??.)....but would they take their horses in the show hunter ring?? Likely not....

Roll your eyes all you want and condescend as you wish but I my opinion stands as well....:yes:

Personally, I don't believe for one minute that any disadvantages in the hunt field are BREED specific. It is all relative to the individual horse. I am willing to bet there any number of Friesans, Clydes, Shetlands etc...that are more suited than Jo Schmoe's TB ( that's built like a hunter:)) but blows it's top out in the open cantering in a group or spooks at it's own shadow.

Yes overall the TB or the TBX is more LIKELY to be suited for the hunt field but the fact of the matter is ANY pure bred Friesan is NOT going to be suitable for the show hunter ring simply because the horse is a FRIESAN and has the breed characteristics of such.

hope I made my point a bit more clear ...:)

[Everythingbutwings]

Trixie: Of course, the same thing goes for show hunters: pretty is as pretty does. If the horse walks in there moving like a world beater, with a world beater jump, nails his 8 spots and goes perfectly in the manner of which a show hunter should go... we don't discriminate against breeds, here, either :) It's just that some breeds have a distinct advantage over others, they are far more likely to be capable of walking in and being a world beater.

We do discriminate against dirty and messy, then again, so do foxhunters.

LookinSouth: Trixie- if you must nitpick I was referring to hunting in general.

The way I read it, Trixie was referring to show hunters in general, not foxhunting.

Trixie: Quote:
The hunt field has no parameters in which any select breed or group of breeds has a distinct advantage.
That's untrue, it absolutely does. A TB has a distinct advantage over say, a shetland pony or a clydesdale for the ability to go first flight. It's downright simpler for a horse built for the job to do the job, which was the point of my post.

Same thing goes in the show ring. A horse built to do the job will have a far easier time of doing the job in the manner expected than one that is not. It's been pointed out a thousand times that if the animal jumps like Rox Dene, no one's really going to care WHAT breed it is. Regardless of breed, the horse needs to be able to do the job to the standard expected. I stand by my post that this is easier for some breeds than for others, due to breed characteristics.

Thats not "discrimination."

There are no breed rules in foxhunting but Trixie is spot on that certain types of horse have a distinct advantage over others in the field.

The OP asked specifically about showing a non-traditional breed in H/J. I'd say if she wants the fun experience and has the money to spend, take the friesian in jumpers where looks and way of going are not part of the scoring and have a good time.

[Trixie]

Personally, I don't believe for one minute that any disadvantages in the hunt field are BREED specific. It is all relative to the individual horse. I am willing to bet there any number of Friesans, Clydes, Shetlands etc...that are more suited than Jo Schmoe's TB ( that's built like a hunter ) but blows it's top out in the open cantering in a group or spooks at it's own shadow.

What part of “Regardless of breed, the horse needs to be able to do the job to the standard expected” was unclear?

Yes overall the TB or the TBX is more LIKELY to be suited for the hunt field but the fact of the matter is ANY pure bred Friesan is NOT going to be suitable for the show hunter ring simply because the horse is a FRIESAN and has the breed characteristics of such.

Which again, is exactly what I said:

“A horse built to do the job will have a far easier time of doing the job in the manner expected than one that is not. It's been pointed out a thousand times that if the animal jumps like Rox Dene, no one's really going to care WHAT breed it is. Regardless of breed, the horse needs to be able to do the job to the standard expected. I stand by my post that this is easier for some breeds than for others, due to breed characteristics.”

You can feel that I'm "condescending" all you want, but I’m fairly certain that you just agreed with me. :winkgrin:

[Everythingbutwings]

A good friend of mine showed her pregnant Andalusian in the Non-TB hunter broodmare class at Upperville a few years ago.

She did it knowing full well that her horse was not hunter type but she said "I live close by, my mare fills the requirements/rules for the class and it's the least expensive UPPERVILLE I could have and I want pictures."

She had a running or french braid in the mare's mane, appropriate for a full maned Andy. Her mare was spotless, well behaved and it was a lovely day so the photos were grand.

My friend went for the fun, not with any delusions that she was going to break down breed barriers at a hunter show with her andalusian mare. :winkgrin:

BTW, the mare does very well, pinning in hunter classes at the Andalusian/Lusitano regional show.

[magnolia73]

that are more suited than Jo Schmoe's TB ( that's built like a hunter ) but blows it's top out in the open cantering in a group or spooks at it's own shadow.

Actually- to an experienced rider a hot or spooky mount that is fit, fast and can jump the moon, may be preferable to a quieter horse with say, a choppier gait or harder to get fit.

Remember that in every crowd, there is someone who wants to be on something fancy at any cost.... Actually, in some ways that parallels hunters- the children and adult ammie might be rewarded for being a good egg, making up for less spectacular jump etc. But the green working that parties in a corner and requires a tactful ride - might be forgiven if the jump and movement is spectacular. There are probably many very good hunt riders who prefer a flashy mount.

[DMK]

Yes overall the TB or the TBX is more LIKELY to be suited for the hunt field but the fact of the matter is ANY pure bred Friesan is NOT going to be suitable for the show hunter ring simply because the horse is a FRIESAN and has the breed characteristics of such.

hope I made my point a bit more clear ...:)

If you were talking about the hunter ring (and I realize you were talking about the hunt field so forgive me my digression), a Friesan would be acceptable in the ring if he was a piss poor example of a friesan. In short, if he lacked "type" as a Friesan, he might have the characteristics of a hunter. Or what the heck, he may not. It's not like there are only two types out there. He might have drawn the secret old type stock horse "type" card for all I know. :lol:

But bottom line, for a "special" (meaning non-traditional) breed to have good hunter type it mostly likely means they are a stunning failure of their breed type. They lack all or some of the characteristics that make that breed what it is. That's not a big deal, there are plenty of TBs and WBs born that also lack hunter type. Shit happens in the gene pool.

But it's very hard to see how a horse could be an excellent example of a Friesan, Arab, Saddlebred, Shire, Hackney, and so on, and be a good example of a hunter. It's just as unlikely as my TB hunter who oozes type (to make up for his lack in other areas :D ) to win against all the above when they were being judged on a class based on their breed type. Does that mean he can't walk trot and canter with the best of them? Of course he can. Just like all those breeds can get from one side of the jump to the other. And we can all have fun doing all those things, but it still doesn't count as suitability and type.

[LookinSouth]

Actually- to an experienced rider a hot or spooky mount that is fit, fast and can jump the moon, may be preferable to a quieter horse with say, a choppier gait or harder to get fit.
.</p>
If the horse is unpredictable, unsafe for the hounds or other members in the hunt field I would disagree. Meeting these parameters is the job of the hunt horse. Flashy comes 2nd. Now a flashy horse with BOTH a good mind and ability in the hunt field?? Of course would likely be desired by anyone but I am fairly sure the majority of foxhunters are going to chose the brains/rideability specifically for the hunt field over flashy IF they had to choose between the two. Why do you think the DraftX is so darn popular versus the TB in the hunt field? People will forgo sleek, fast and floaty gaits for the often more clunky draft X simply because of their generally sound minds and rideability in the foxhunting environment. Not just weanie ammies either. There are even FULL drafts in the hunt field.Hence why I say a Freisan very well may be more suited to the hunt field than the average TB or WB that is suited for the hunter show ring but doesn't have the mind to hunt. There is nothing wrong with that...they are two completely different jobs. Which has been my point all along. It is just ridiculous to hear people reference foxhunting when explaining the standards of today's show hunter ring. At one time they went hand in hand but not anymore. The horses are two completely different animals and one sport is considerably more accepting of variable breed characteristics than another for obvious reasons. That really is the only point I am trying to make here.
Feel free to disagree all you like but I think if one spends some time talking to people on the hunting forum and looking at pictures of what is out hunting TODAY you might be more inclined to agree with me. But to each their own....it's not worth spending my afternoon debating about it.

[LookinSouth]

You can feel that I'm &quot;condescending&quot; all you want, but I’m fairly certain that you just agreed with me. :winkgrin:

there are many ways to express an opposing opinion without the need to insert rolly eyes (which is what I was referring to). It's unneccessary unless the commentary really calls for it which I believe mine did not. I simply had a differing opinion....and still do.

[Everythingbutwings]

Hence why I say a Freisan very well may be more suited to the hunt field than the average TB or WB that is suited for the hunter show ring but doesn't have the mind to hunt. There is nothing wrong with that...they are two completely different jobs. Which has been my point all along. It is just ridiculous to hear people reference foxhunting when explaining the standards of today's show hunter ring. At one time they went hand in hand but not anymore. The horses are two completely different animals and one sport is considerably more accepting of variable breed characteristics than another for obvious reasons. That really is the only point I am trying to make
here.

A friesian may be more suited than A TB but I would place a solid bet that most friesians are less suited than most TB's in the hunt field. The OP asked about showing hunter/jumper, not foxhunting.

You are correct in saying that it's silly to reference foxhunting when discussing a standard for the show ring but you can argue till you are blue in the face and the fact is going to remain that show hunters origins are rooted in field hunting.

Friesian's origins are carriage driving horses. You'd be more likely to find a Cleveland Bay (also carriage driving breed) or CB cross in the hunt field doing a good job at foxhunting.

[magnolia73]

Perhaps then hunting and show hunters share a lot in common in the changes of preferred horse. Away from hotter horses to those which offer more ridability. More refined for show hunters- which rewards both the ideal of style and rideability. Less refined for hunters looking for sturdy, reliable and safe above style.

I do think that you will still find more TB's suited to hunting- at speed, over jumps than fresians or full drafts. The sheer issue of fitness and long term soundness makes them more suitable. Case in point- friends full draft has some soundness issues- he is not built to gallop all day- and would never hold up to seasons of jumping. Meanwhile her hubbies TB retired sound at something like 28 after many seasons spent hunting, plus a starter career in eventing.

The draft cross (and warmbloods) are a nice balance of the two. I bet if draft cross breeders continue to refine their horses, adding more TB blood, they will eventually look and perform like the warmbloods that dominate the hunters. And it would be an interesting poll to see the leading breed in the hunt field. I imagine it varies per hunt- but I bet TB's are still preferred.

[Trixie]

there are many ways to express an opposing opinion without the need to insert rolly eyes (which is what I was referring to). It's unneccessary unless the commentary really calls for it which I believe mine did not. I simply had a differing opinion....and still do.

I was rolling my eyes at your use of the term “discrimination.” I stand by that.

It’s akin to me, as a graphic designer, with an artistic eye/brain and total inability to do math, applying for a job as a math teacher or physicist. Could I do the job? Not well, I’m ill-suited to it. Would not hiring me because I’m ill-suited to it be “discrimination?” No. There are a thousand other candidates for the same job that are far more qualified and who have the right mindset.

[Trixie]

FWIW, I've hunted several horses, all of whom were TBs.

[meupatdoes]

Let me premise this by saying that I have seen the pictures that you posted in the other thread and you and your horse seem like a cute, business-like pair who are going around having fun and doing a perfectly nice job while you are at it.

However, please keep in mind while you are going off to the A shows to have fun, that there may be 30 other competitors who have spent a ton of money to hone the craft of riding a bona fide hunter round and are waiting for you to do your rounds and a professional judge who has gone through quite a rigamarole to get an "R" card to watch these rounds and give you his or her professional opinion. That's what a horse show is.

That is why I personally get annoyed when people who are totally unprepared with a dirty horse and sloppy turnout show up to crank around eight jumps just for shits: it is disrespectful to the people who invest great quantities of time and money into taking it seriously and work their tails to the bone to approximate the stated ideal as closely as possible.

Everyone waits while this unprofessional pair galumphs around just for their own personal whim. The time they are their on their whim is the same time for everybody ELSE who ISN'T there on their whim.
It is like tire kicking a whole division and the judge too.

Now, OP, you have showed us pictures which demonstrate that you are respectful of the division and capable of meeting its overall standards, so I don't think you fall into the category above.

But please walk into the hunter ring with as much respect for the hunter ring as you would hope somebody else would show for your friesian breed shows, and be aware that the time you are spending on your rounds is everyone else and the judge's time too.

[Seven-up]

I doubt the OP is even reading this thread anymore....

[sansibar]

I doubt the OP is even reading this thread anymore....

thats exactly what I was going to say!

[Filly85']

So you don't believe there are specific breeds that have better temperments, fitness, soundess, and reliability for the hunt??? And foxhunters don't have a "type"??? No breed has a disadvantage???? Trixie is not saying that some breeds have and advantage solely because of the brand on their hip, shes saying some breeds have an advantage because they were BRED to be hunters!!

Sure any breed may have an equal opportunity as a hilltopper or on a more laid back hunt, but the OP is asking about the elite circuit where the upper echelon meets to compete...

Breeds are not bred to be hunters. Individual horses are bred to be hunters and become them or not. Horses that aren't bred to be hunters often become hunters. You breed the best to the best and hope for the best. That is all that you can do.

For example, a TB might be bred for racing, but might turn out to be a spectacular hunter. A QH might be bred for western pleasure, and may miraculously end up on the A circuit. A WB might be bred for dressage, and might become a hunter. It depends on the individual's movement, presence, style, rhythm, and temperament. Of course, there are certain breeds that produce a lot more hunter champions than other breeds.

I've seen horses with superior hunter breeding turn out to be not so nice. I have also seen backyard horses that weren't bred to jump get into the right hands and win in the hunter ring at the A shows.

Take the Quarter Horse for example. There are more than a couple of them that win at the A shows.

It's all on the individual animal.

And actually, I think the hunter ring is too dressagy at times now with the influx of WBs. A lot of them have a little too much action for me. A Friesian would not help that problem. I like beautiful moving daisy-cutters who don't wring their tails and chomp at the bit.

Her horse would not win or place in the hunter ring, but he seems an honest fellow with a good enough jump. If he is careful with his feet, nothing would stop him from doing well in the jumpers.

[Seven-up]

This thread is a trip. Do y'all realize all she asked was if a running braid, a trace clip and fluffy feet were acceptable at the A shows? That's it.

... Right now when we show, I braid his mane in a french braid and do nothing with his tail (he has the tail of 5 horses quite literally!). Today he just got a trace clip because he gets so sweaty. Is that acceptable for A rated shows or not so much? I CANNOT pull his mane or tail because I also want to show in breed shows. Also his foot feathering must stay but does anyone have any idea how judges would feel towards that?...

Yeah, yeah, I know, I got sucked in too. But as I suspected at the beginning, the only thing this thread was meant to be is an 'anything your horse can do my Fresian can do better' thread. Now people are trying to compare apples & oranges (show hunters & field hunters) and getting pissed about it, too.


So here's what I want to know: I have this kangaroo named Hoppy and I want to do the A's. I can't braid his pouch because it must be left natural for the 'Roo breed shows. Also his feet are pretty big, and he can't be shod, 'cause shoes=murder. Oh, yeah, and I'd like to stop in the middle of my course and do Parelli's 7 games. You don't think the judges will have a problem with that, right? I really think we'd be trendsetters. I mean, have you ever seen a kangaroo do the A/O's? And if the judges don't give me a score of 100 and all the blue ribbons they have in their cardboard box, well, they're just snobs. :winkgrin:


Sorry. Just couldn't help it.:cool:

[LookinSouth]

Breeds are not bred to be hunters. Individual horses are bred to be hunters and become them or not. Horses that aren't bred to be hunters often become hunters. You breed the best to the best and hope for the best. That is all that you can do.

For example, a TB might be bred for racing, but might turn out to be a spectacular hunter. A QH might be bred for western pleasure, and may miraculously end up on the A circuit. A WB might be bred for dressage, and might become a hunter. It depends on the individual's movement, presence, style, rhythm, and temperament. Of course, there are certain breeds that produce a lot more hunter champions than other breeds.

I've seen horses with superior hunter breeding turn out to be not so nice. I have also seen backyard horses that weren't bred to jump get into the right hands and win in the hunter ring at the A shows.

Take the Quarter Horse for example. There are more than a couple of them that win at the A shows.

It's all on the individual animal.

.


Succinctly stated.

A great example of breeding for "type" or "discipline" and failing miserably would be my speed bred APHA/TB ( bred for barrels and APHA racing) who is nearly 16.2 and turned out to be a great dressage horse( and hunt horse). People are usually very surprised when I explain his breeding background.

Barrels we tried and it is NOT his thing, he is too big and his gaits are too lofty. You can see him in my profile, barrel horse he is not.

Yet his father is THE top champion producing APHA barrel horse and racing sire of all time. Since the 80's. Go figure.

[foursocks]

Seven-Up: ABSOLUTELY show Hoppy in the A's. I'd go for the A/Os, since I'm sure he has the scope! You make a cute pair (I've never seen you but I'm certain of this anyway! It's nice to be nice!) and therefore you should go spend a lot of money. GOOD LUCK! {{{HUGS}}}

[Giddy-up]

This thread is a trip. Do y'all realize all she asked was if a running braid, a trace clip and fluffy feet were acceptable at the A shows? That's it.

Yeah, yeah, I know, I got sucked in too. But as I suspected at the beginning, the only thing this thread was meant to be is an 'anything your horse can do my Fresian can do better' thread. Now people are trying to compare apples & oranges (show hunters & field hunters) and getting pissed about it, too.

I figured this was a joke after a bit & the OP was just bored on school break. I was surprised when they even bothered to respond.

And yes, you should totally show Hoppy. In fact you should go to WEF. You show those snobby hunter judges & people with imported WBs!

[magnolia73]

Oh, yeah, and I'd like to stop in the middle of my course and do Parelli's 7 games.

Only if you go in bareback with only your silly string and carrot stick to guide you. Bonus if you don't wear a helmet and jump a random picnic table.

[Serah]

This thread is a trip. Do y'all realize all she asked was if a running braid, a trace clip and fluffy feet were acceptable at the A shows? That's it.



Yeah, yeah, I know, I got sucked in too. But as I suspected at the beginning, the only thing this thread was meant to be is an 'anything your horse can do my Fresian can do better' thread. Now people are trying to compare apples & oranges (show hunters & field hunters) and getting pissed about it, too.


So here's what I want to know: I have this kangaroo named Hoppy and I want to do the A's. I can't braid his pouch because it must be left natural for the 'Roo breed shows. Also his feet are pretty big, and he can't be shod, 'cause shoes=murder. Oh, yeah, and I'd like to stop in the middle of my course and do Parelli's 7 games. You don't think the judges will have a problem with that, right? I really think we'd be trendsetters. I mean, have you ever seen a kangaroo do the A/O's? And if the judges don't give me a score of 100 and all the blue ribbons they have in their cardboard box, well, they're just snobs. :winkgrin:


Sorry. Just couldn't help it.:cool:




I *heart* you.

[War Admiral]

But it's very hard to see how a horse could be an excellent example of a Friesan, Arab, Saddlebred, Shire, Hackney, and so on, and be a good example of a hunter.

Ummm... Submitted for your approval: The Georgian Grande (http://www.georgiangrande.com/Champion%20GG/Princess%20Zahara/princecess%20zahara%20blue%20ribbon.jpg)... A Friesian/ASB cross that I don't think *anybody* would be completely, utterly, totally mortified to present in the "A" hunter ring... And this IS the breed standard... They're stunning horses. I woulda bought one if I coulda found one. Which wasn't $20k. :D

Just funning with ya though. I do get your point, and I do agree that the OP's purebred Friesian, sadly, does not conform to the hunter ring standard.

[ImTheOwner]

Only if you go in bareback with only your silly string and carrot stick to guide you. Bonus if you don't wear a helmet and jump a random picnic table.

Is that why someone's GM sig line on here is something close to "you will never win an Olympic gold by shaking a carrot stick at a Warmblood"? The carrot stick has to do with a natural horsemanship technique and GM is poking fun? I finally get it! Haha!

[fordtraktor]

WA, your Georgian fellow is lovely but I think a half and half is a cross, not a breed -- so it is hard for it to be a breed standard. I'd be interested to see it move and jump.

That said, I would take it any day! As a working student I rode a number of ASB jumpers, and just loved them --smart, calm, athletic, quick horses that are a blast to ride. I would consider one any day if my goal was AA jumpers. As a matter of fact, I'll take Quattro if you're tired of him!

[DMK]

yes, that one was nice, but there were plenty of other similar crosses that didn't turn out nearly as well - more misses than hits. That's the downside of first generation crosses. Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't.

[gabriellemg]

A purebred Cleveland Bay or better yet a 1/2 CB 1/2 TB would be a wonderful show hunter. they have the look and the style, but show ring hunters seem to bore them. You can get them to do one or two very nice rounds, and then they look back and you and ask why in the heck are we going in circles and figure 8s?

IMO, they are much happier fox hunting and eventing.

Yet like anything else, they are all individuals. The luckiest rider is to find a horse that enjoys the same discipline as they do.

GMG
Texas USA

[horsegirl888]

The luckiest rider is to find a horse that enjoys the same discipline as they do.

GMG
Texas USA

Bingo. :yes: And the luckiest horse is the one that has a rider that helps it to do what the horse enjoys doing/is meant to do. Whatever that may be.

[saitou_amaya]

I doubt the OP is even reading this thread anymore....

No up until now I really wasn't. I have been doing my own research on how to show my friesian in hunters on a higher level. According to the International Friesian Show Horse Association website, there are quite a few different hunter under saddle classes, but no over fences classes and I am in the process of trying to change that. Basically, the IFSHA WANTS us to compete our horses in ALL disciplines. Rated IFSHA shows for a friesian in the hunters in area 7 is A and B rated hunter/jumper show. For dressage, same thing, and any other discipine. I think this is in part laziness of the friesian show association for not setting up more breed specific shows. The ONLY show specifically for friesians in area 7 is the Nationals, which I plan on competing in. But to qualify in the hunters, I must show him in A rated hunter/jumper shows, regardless of his breed. Its VERY confusing.
* dear lord, I think its time to get me a thoroghbred*

[TheOrangeOne]

No up until now I really wasn't. I have been doing my own research on how to show my friesian in hunters on a higher level. According to the International Friesian Show Horse Association website, there are quite a few different hunter under saddle classes, but no over fences classes and I am in the process of trying to change that. Basically, the IFSHA WANTS us to compete our horses in ALL disciplines. Rated IFSHA shows for a friesian in the hunters in area 7 is A and B rated hunter/jumper show. For dressage, same thing, and any other discipine. I think this is in part laziness of the friesian show association for not setting up more breed specific shows. The ONLY show specifically for friesians in area 7 is the Nationals, which I plan on competing in. But to qualify in the hunters, I must show him in A rated hunter/jumper shows, regardless of his breed. Its VERY confusing.
* dear lord, I think its time to get me a thoroghbred*

I think that is a very fair way to go about it for both you and your horse, and it makes MUCH more sense to me that you need to go to an A or B show to qualify for nationals. :yes: I am interested to hear how it goes, and especially how other competitors qualify for nationals.

[Giddy-up]

so all you have to do to qualify for the Fresian National show in hunters is attend an A (or B) rated USEF hunter show? Do you need to place at all?

[saitou_amaya]

It's unclear...honestly the IFSHA needs to get their act together in my opinion.

[RugBug]

</p>
Why do you think the DraftX is so darn popular versus the TB in the hunt field?

Because people don't really learn to ride anymore? :winkgrin:








Just kidding...but I think that's a popular answer whenever the declining popularity of the TB is discussed. :lol:

[saitou_amaya]

Umm I will tell you, I have ridden dozens of TBs and also dozens of friesians and getting a friesian to ride hunter is WAY WAY harder than getting a TB to do so!

[fish]

No up until now I really wasn't. I have been doing my own research on how to show my friesian in hunters on a higher level. According to the International Friesian Show Horse Association website, there are quite a few different hunter under saddle classes, but no over fences classes and I am in the process of trying to change that. Basically, the IFSHA WANTS us to compete our horses in ALL disciplines. Rated IFSHA shows for a friesian in the hunters in area 7 is A and B rated hunter/jumper show. For dressage, same thing, and any other discipine. I think this is in part laziness of the friesian show association for not setting up more breed specific shows. The ONLY show specifically for friesians in area 7 is the Nationals, which I plan on competing in. But to qualify in the hunters, I must show him in A rated hunter/jumper shows, regardless of his breed. Its VERY confusing.
* dear lord, I think its time to get me a thoroghbred*

Sounds to me as though this registry is following the path of trying to sell its breed as all-purpose, competitive at everything. It's been a long time since I paid attention, but I have the impression that the Arab people have tried the same thing: their national shows show feature Arabs doing everything from native (Arab) costume to cutting calves. IMO, the only thing they didn't show (because they really couldn't) is the one discipline at which Arabs truly excell: endurance! They are also encourage to compete at discipline shows, at which some are fairly good, but still rarely posing a threat to those more purpose-bred for the discipline (e.g. Warmbloods in dressage and jumping, QH's in cutting and reining, etc.).