Farrier dilemma- WWYD?

[JackSprats Mom]

So my 5 year old gelding will not let my farrier shoe him behind without being drugged...last time didn't work even drugged and twitched :(. Horse has not had a bad shoeing ever as I've owned him since he was almost three and unshod. We went the first year and a half shoeless as we were just putzing around but then last year I shod him as we were doing much more condition on rocky ground. Started with plastic shoes then went to metal and behaviour got worse each time until I drugged him.

My farrier has been a saint throughout all of this. We have tried everything and the only thing we know doesn't help is to get mad at the horse!

My horse hikes his hind leg up and then kicks out with so much strength that its impossible to hold on to. He does this as soon as there is banging on the metal shoe so he can be trimmed just fine.

Now I have tried various things prior to drugging and due to the last attempt and being unable to shoe him I went back to square one (again). Now the interesting thing is I can stand and hike his back leg all over the place and bang on it with a shoe and hammer (this is when he gets fussy with the farrier- metal on metal) and he stands there. Had a friend do the same thing- he stood there....so I'm thinking that this may all be an issue between him and my farrier (although I have been present every time and I know the farrier hasn't done anything wrong).

I have two options (as far as I can see). One, get a new farrier and see how the horse does with an unknown person. BUT I am fairly anal over who handles my horse and so my gut reaction is that I would want someone my current farrier recommends as he is great...think he would understand?

Option two I can 'cowboy' him through this (tying up a leg so he learns to give his hind legs- wouldn't be me but an experienced person doing this) and make him realize that he needs to stand regardless of who does his feet?

Here's where I stand. I am a firm believer that if you ask (nicely) the horse should give- so am reluctant to let him get away with this behaviour and change farriers because he has learnt he can do this. BUT I would hate to have him cowboyed through this and get him hurt!

What would you do? I hve used my farrier for over five years so I'm pretty sure he would understand if I asked him to recommend someone else but then again this is business too so....:confused:

[BuddyRoo]

Does the horse truly NEED shoes on the hinds? I realize this may be a behavioral issue/training issue...but honestly...I don't know many critters that need hind shoes even on more rugged terrain so maybe it's not a skill you NEED to pursue.

Or try boots.

You say he's not had a bad farrier experience...sounds to me like he's having a bad experience every time you try to do the hinds. And it's getting worse.

I'd wonder if he's being impatient? Or if he's getting sore by that point?

Have you guys tried doing the hinds first? Or trimming one, then the other, then shoeing one, then the other?

Have you tried working him just before your farrier arrives? A nice solid workout? Limber him up AND tire him out a bit? (my mare does SO much better w/ her hinds when I do a workout first....loosens her up)



(just wondering what all you've tried beyond the drugs)

I'm guessing this CAN be worked out...but it's hard to really know what the root problem is. I don't think I'd go to the "cowboy" stage as you call it.

What does your farrier think?

[jetsmom]

Is it possible the farrier is stretching his leg differently than you do? Such as more to the side/back or underneath? Some horses object to having their hainds handled a certain way due to conformation, stiffness.

[Go Fish]

How tall is your farrier?

[JackSprats Mom]

I'll try and answer all of you (sorry its hard to put all the needed info in the post).

Does the horse truly NEED shoes on the hinds? I realize this may be a behavioral issue/training issue...but honestly...I don't know many critters that need hind shoes even on more rugged terrain so maybe it's not a skill you NEED to pursue.

Yes, he does LD endurance and with the terrain we condition on in winter he would be more comfortable in shoes (I had him barefoot for over an year and he does great but on the rocks he gets ouchy). Tried (trying) boots but have had major issues with losing the easy boots and then the bares rubbing him (am going to continue messing with boots as I would rather keep him barefoot). I also would hate to just let him 'get away with it', if I ever have to sell him (which I hope I won't) this is a nasty habit for which I have seen poeple do even nastier things to 'cure' it. So I would rahter fix it now while I have him.

You say he's not had a bad farrier experience...sounds to me like he's having a bad experience every time you try to do the hinds. And it's getting worse.
I agree with this, what I meant was he hasn't been beaten up or shanked etc for being bad or slapped with a rasp as I've seen some farriers do.

Have you guys tried doing the hinds first? Or trimming one, then the other, then shoeing one, then the other?

Yup tried hinds first, fronts first etc, with drugs without drugs, with me holding his hinds (which worked but too hard an angle for farrier), with twitch without. Only thing I haven't tried that I can think of is using a different farrier.

Have you tried working him just before your farrier arrives? A nice solid workout? Limber him up AND tire him out a bit? (my mare does SO much better w/ her hinds when I do a workout first....loosens her up)
Haven't tried this...he is out 24/7 though but I will certainly give this a go and see!

What does your farrier think? We're both at a loss and frustrated.

Is it possible the farrier is stretching his leg differently than you do? Such as more to the side/back or underneath? Some horses object to having their hainds handled a certain way due to conformation, stiffness. We have looked at this as I realize being a farrier isn't easy on the body so we have tried lowering his hinds holding them close etc etc. I have made an effort when I handle him to try and hike his hinds up higher and out wider to imitate what may be happening to see how he responds and he allows me to do it.

How tall is your farrier? horse is 15.3 farrier is 6'2 (ish)

[RedMare01]

I also think it may be how the farrier is holding his legs while shoeing, so I think it might be worth it to try another farrier and see what happens. I had somewhat of the same problem with my mare at one point. I have owned her since she was 4 (she is now almost 15) and she has only acted badly for one out of the five or so farriers that have worked on her in the past 10 years. I had an okay farrier that she stood perfectly for; I switched to another and she was fine for the first shoeing. The second shoeing she was really bad...she just would not stand still and tried to kick out (which she has never done before or since). The third shoeing was just awful. We ended up twitching her and he still barely got the job done (and he wasn't doing anything obviously to hurt her AT ALL). I figured out by that time that she was trying to tell me something, so I switched farriers again and she went back to being a perfect angel (for the farrier ;)) and has been fine for all since. The fact that you can hold his legs for the farrier would also lead me to try another farrier. FWIW.

Caitlin

[McVillesMom]

I've had similar problems with my horse. You've gotten really good thoughts/suggestions so far. With my horse it seems to be somewhat of a balance issue (as in, he falls over if he has to stand on 3 legs for too long) - but he also can be difficult with me, so it sounds like you have a somewhat different problem. With my horse, I had to find a farrier that just wouldn't let go when he jerked his legs around (easier said than done - my horse has actually picked my farrier up before, and he is by no means a small man!) It sounds like that's just not possible because he's kicking so hard.

I agree with other posters that suggested working him beforehand, in case it is a stiffness issue. If you think he might be sore, you might discuss with your vet giving him Bute beforehand.

As far as the cowboy method - you know your horse best, and I think this would only be potentially beneficial if you're pretty sure that he's just being a jerk, and there's not any other cause. Otherwise, I think you risk doing more harm than good.

[Pat]

The first two thoughts that sprang to mind:

1. Do try another farrrier. Even just for poops and grins. It may well be the way he holds the horse.

2. Get a chiropractor out there NOW. Not just any chiro, do a bit of research and find the best guy you can. He may be having trouble holding a leg up for the required time for a shoe, which is certainly longer than to just have it picked out. Having some quality chiro sessions could help him be able to hold himself up on three pegs.

It could be getting progressivly worse because he is anticipating pain and is trying to avoid being in that position, or because the pain is actually getting worse. Either way, it does sound like a pain reaction to me.



I tacked up a mare once that just plain couldn't cope having her hinds up "that way" for long. She tossed me good. She wasn't "mine" and so I didn't know about that little detail. There I was, minding my own business putting caulks in her back feet. YIPE! Good thing I had the tap out or I would have had double trouble if she stood on that.

[Equsrider]

Could you or have you tried glue on as another option?

Also, I had a TB mare years ago who could only be shod with her hind foot very close to the ground. Very uncomfortable for the farrier to accomodate her, but farrier found this to be far more acceptable than him getting hurt and indangering his income from lost wages. Every time we would need a new shoe at a show and a new farrier would lift her leg up high, (after I told them she didn't like it) and she'd send them accross the room, they would begin again with her foot close to the ground and never a problem.I do think a chiro visit is in order as well

[LockeMeadows]

If you like the way your farrier does your guys hooves, why don't you try a little stronger drug i.e. a "cocktail"? D/R comes to mind. We've gotten a couple of unhandled 2-3yo that needed their hooves trimmed now, not in 6 weeks once they have more handling. Our vet drugs them to the point of almost laying down and they are *perfect* for the farrier, except my husband has to help hold their wobbly butts.

However, I'm very particular who works on my horses. We have a farrier who does an excellent job and is well-versed in corrective shoeing. I'm not sure what is going to happen if he ever chooses another job because I won't let anyone else touch my horse's hooves.

[SlobberHound]

Just ride him in boots in the back?

[FindersKeepers]

You mentioned that you have messed with his back legs and he's fine, and a friend... but my guess is you are not 6'2". That makes a big difference in how high your horse has to hold his leg at that awkward angle while a shoe is put on. Imagine if you had a stiff or sore hip, and someone hiked your leg up and out. You might be able to tolerate it, stand still, behave. Now imagine a bigger person comes, does the same thing but moves it higher and out further, and at the same time has the concussion of metal on metal running through your whole leg, up to that sore spot. That would just be too much to take.

I would suggest this. Next time he's getting his feet done, give him a gram of bute in the morning, work him for a half an hour just before the farrier gets there, then give it a try. Could just be sore tendons and muscles, and that method tends to help.

My next plan would be glue on shoes, and if that's not an option, find a farrier that's smaller in stature, and see if that helps.

[goeslikestink]

So my 5 year old gelding will not let my farrier shoe him behind without being drugged...last time didn't work even drugged and twitched :(. Horse has not had a bad shoeing ever as I've owned him since he was almost three and unshod. We went the first year and a half shoeless as we were just putzing around but then last year I shod him as we were doing much more condition on rocky ground. Started with plastic shoes then went to metal and behaviour got worse each time until I drugged him.

My farrier has been a saint throughout all of this. We have tried everything and the only thing we know doesn't help is to get mad at the horse!

My horse hikes his hind leg up and then kicks out with so much strength that its impossible to hold on to. He does this as soon as there is banging on the metal shoe so he can be trimmed just fine.

Now I have tried various things prior to drugging and due to the last attempt and being unable to shoe him I went back to square one (again). Now the interesting thing is I can stand and hike his back leg all over the place and bang on it with a shoe and hammer (this is when he gets fussy with the farrier- metal on metal) and he stands there. Had a friend do the same thing- he stood there....so I'm thinking that this may all be an issue between him and my farrier (although I have been present every time and I know the farrier hasn't done anything wrong).

I have two options (as far as I can see). One, get a new farrier and see how the horse does with an unknown person. BUT I am fairly anal over who handles my horse and so my gut reaction is that I would want someone my current farrier recommends as he is great...think he would understand?

Option two I can 'cowboy' him through this (tying up a leg so he learns to give his hind legs- wouldn't be me but an experienced person doing this) and make him realize that he needs to stand regardless of who does his feet?

Here's where I stand. I am a firm believer that if you ask (nicely) the horse should give- so am reluctant to let him get away with this behaviour and change farriers because he has learnt he can do this. BUT I would hate to have him cowboyed through this and get him hurt!

What would you do? I hve used my farrier for over five years so I'm pretty sure he would understand if I asked him to recommend someone else but then again this is business too so....:confused:

can i ask you something as i read it, that you did his shoes in the begining from plastic then to metal ones -- yourself

if so then this is where the problem arose if not then its how the horse associates with trust issue and is hurting somewhere for him not to stand still

[Bluey]

If your horse doesn't has any real reason to act as he is, even if this is a stretch, have you seen any other occassions where he is not cooperating as he used to?

We had a gelding that when he hit five, one day, the same farrier he had been seeing for three years for trims, as the farrier approached as always, he backed off, started blowing like a bronc and threatening to rear and fight if he got close.
We teased at first that maybe the farrier smelled different, but then it became serious as the silly horse kept it up.
We made it clear that such was not acceptable and the farrier went on and no more problems, but it sure was a shock and made us realize that the gelding had shown a little odd "I won't!" defiances here and there and that was just a more clear one.
Once aware, we explained to him that "we humans, you horse, we do know better".;)

I have seen several geldings right around five try to change and become quirky, then get over it again.:confused:

If you can't find anything wrong with your horse, maybe he is in that stage of wanting to finally assert itself as an adult and trying the odd bluff here and there?
Have you seen any other instances where he is becoming less than accomodating?

Trying another shoer may sure help determine if the trouble is with the shoer or the horse.:yes:

[magnolia73]

Hey- my mare does the same thing- fine to get shoes on her fronts, fine to trim the hinds, when the shoe starts going on, she moves her leg around and tries to put it down. She has done this for 3 farriers now. She is worst on her Right hind, which is the leg she has some hock issues with. The last two shoeings, I have given her 1 gram of bute the night before and it seems to have helped a bit- not completely, but she is much better. I think in her case, it was discomfort, and I don't think sedation would really make a difference- she doesn't appear scared or upset.

[IndysMom]

This may sound like a strange question, but is he standing on concrete or asphalt when the shoer is working on him? If so, he may be afraid he's going to slip. Try putting a rubber mat under him. I had a similar (but not quite so bad) situation and that was the issue. The rubber mat actually solved the problem.

[findeight]

Two thoughts.

One is he may be afraid of slipping as pointed out above.

The other is maybe the farrier is hurting him. Either the way he is lifting or the angle-or both-puts pressure on hock and hip joints or he is agravating pre exsisting soreness. Mine acts just like this when her hocks are bothering her which leads me to suspect pain as #1.

I know you don't want another farrier but, really, this is not doing you or the horse any good at all.

Try another, shorter, farrier and I would go ahead and ace him the first time as he is not going to be looking forward to having those back legs lifted. Give it a couple of cycles and see how it goes.

Get the chiropractor out too.

[BuddyRoo]

Also...the problem (IMHO) with sedating is that a lot of horses kind of fight that feeling to begin with and then to ask them to balance on the diagonal while you work can be frustrating for them.

Have you guys tried a hoof jack? Both of my mares really seem to prefer it for the hinds because they can still put weight on that leg and I can adjust it to the right height for them without killing my back.

My 14 3 mare had some challenges when I was using a taller farrier as well....she's also the one with the stiffness issues and while she's usually been out all day when I go to trim her, I can tell a MARKED difference in how she behaves when I ride first then trim vs just pulling her out of the pasture.

[outwestPoloPlayer]

My mare started pulling her front foot away/rearing this spring while being shod. She seemed sound and can be a bit difficult so we just assumed it was behavioral. I ended up neck twitching her while she was being shod in front and she'd stand.

I have since moved and the new farrier (recommended by the old) was horrified by how short her feet were. He literally said that if he took off anymore sole, she'd bleed. She reacted pretty badly when he first pulled her shoes and, instead of blaming her, he said he bet it hurt. He literally didn't touch her with the hoof knife and we increased the shoeing interval because she just wasn't growing much hoof. The second time he shod her, she stood like a rock.

After seeing that, I'd try a new farrier. I really liked the last guy and he was recommended by a huge vet clinic in town. I think the horse much prefers the new guy.

[mroades]

what are you drugging him with?

[ZIL]

Since your horse doesn't appear to mind you banging on his hind hooves as if you were shoeing him, maybe you could hold the hoof when it is time to put the shoe on, and have your farrier put in the nails?

[MistyBlue]

Sounds like stringhalt to me...yanking the hind hoof out of the farrier's hands to tuck up under the belly followed by striking out with that hind is almost textbook stringhalt actions. My mare had stringhalt and did the same exact thing getting her hinds shod. The concussion of the hammer on the nails could trigger a spasm...or lifting it at the tiniest wrong bit of an angle...she'd yank her leg under her and then kick out. It was a spasm, not disobedience.
What worked for my farrier was holding her hind legs very, very low and keeping them under the body instead of pulling them out to the side to be easier to work on. Took some trial and error to find the right way but he's a patient man and eventually we found a way that worked.

[Touchstone Farm]

I had a mare that did this. Fine for trimming, fine for the first round of shoes. The second time the farrier came to do shoes, when he got to the back, she would yank her foot away, was just awful. So I did what you did -- picked up her feet regularly and banged on them so if it was the sound or vibration, she'd get use to it.

Finally, we just had pockets full of treats which she got when her back feet got worked on. Distraction. It took months, but finally she stood just fine. Then we started backing off the treasts, andd there was no more need for treats any more.

She just had a bug up her butt about it!

[JackSprats Mom]

thanks for all the suggestions and I will try to answer some of the questions;

This horse is regularly seen by one of the best Chiro in the PNW and while he has had some little issues nothing big (I do this for maintaince). He is also not showing signs of muscle soreness (I am a licensed massage therapist and a certified equine massage therapist-not practicing). He is ridden in both dressage and lightly in endurance and is not showing any signs of pain/uneven movement.

The horse learnt to do this as a stallion so my feeling is that alot of it is attitude as there is no fear/pain showing at the time. I think he has learnt he can do this so he does. He has been a gelding for a year now, this is the last thing in which he still shows possible attitude!

I can change the cocktail of drugs but would rather resolve the issue then just redrug.

Plastic glue ons are not very succesful in the PNW due to mud etc but if some one knows of some that are I'll try them! Boots are rubbing him atm so not sure they will work long term.

I know nothing about stringhalt so I'll google it and see.

GLS- nope I didn't shoe him myself although I think its almost coming to that!

I guess I'm going to have to try a variety of things and rule stuff out so as soon as the snow makes it possible to get to the barn again (been three weeks no riding :() I am going to

a) bute him/work him and hike his leg up and see what reaction if any I get to try and rule out pain...see a before and after. He gets rechiro'd in 8 days so obviously I'll check in with him.

b) get a new smaller farrier to try and see how that goes

He is shod on concrete BUT this issue was around when he had Ground Control shoes too and they are plastic and don't slip, I will look into this and see if this is an issue for him though.

My gut feeling is that the farrier is lifting his leg up a little high and he has learnt that (as a stallion with a little attitude) he doesn't have to stand there. This has progressed to this point.

*sigh* he doing so well with everything else I would just like to get over this little hump so if I need/want he can get shod!

Thanks for all the suggestiosn, not ruling anything out but I guess I'll have to start looking at each one and trying new things to see which works!

[Sobriska]

It sounds like the farrier you are using is a bit of a Saint:) It sounds like he has put up with a lot, and tried to work through the issue with you. It sounds like he does a nice job.

I personally think ALL farriers should be so good, but realize a lot are not.

If your farrier is willing to continue with this horse, I would personally do everything in my power to hang onto him, and keep working at the issue.

I believe, from what you have said, that your farrier would be willing to adjust his position to what the horse is happy with.

So.....a little suggestion. YOU work with your horse. YOU pick up his feet and try to mimic the farrier. AND have someone video you. Review that. And have someone video the farrier as well. And review that. There may be some VERY subtle difference. Something neither of you realize. But videoing, might make an "AH HA" moment. And you may find the key for the farrier to adjust for your horse.

Another suggestion is to try the treating thing. Only making sure that the treats (I would use grain, as you can feed teeny bits) is ONLY when horsie is being a gent. If horsie is being good and quiet, the little bits of sweet feed keep coming. He fusses, feeding stops. Farrier puts hoof down, feeding stops. You want horse to associate that yum yum with having the shoe put on. This worked with one of mine that had pain issues. He would tolerate the discomfort for the food.

Best wishes, and please do keep us posted.

[JackSprats Mom]

It sounds like the farrier you are using is a bit of a Saint

OMG is he a saint! Hence the reason why I'm reluctant to change farriers as I'm anal about how his feet are done and really like my farriers work (its been 'reviewed' by a Master Farrier who also liked it so not just my opinion;)).