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downthecenterlinetheycome
Dec. 27, 2008, 03:35 PM
Hi. I know I missed the off topic day, but I really need help, and hope the mods will not delete my thread. I have a young Shih Tzu/Pekingese mix who has serious food aggression problems. I, being a teen, can not stop my mom from sending him off to the shelter. I have a younger brother, and my mom is afraid he'll hurt him, which is understandable. But he is an outside dog mainly. I've tried to train him out of the food aggression, and I want to scrape together my own money to pay a professional to help, but my Mom just isn't supportive in my efforts and wants nothing to do with him.

If any of you can help with any ideas of what to do, it would be great. He is very possessive of objects and if you try to take ANYTHING away he growls, snaps, freaks out. Same with food, if you get near him while he's eating even a crumb off the floor, he apsolutely flips. I can't even describe, he growls horribly and attacks like a Pit (no offense to Pits, I think they're great dogs, more like a Pit trained to fight). He has drawn blood. If you try to do an alpha roll and put him on his back, he growls like a monster and bites and snaps.

Sometimes, after many alpha rolls, he will back off a bit, and I make him stand back away from his food. But then he will not go to the food at all and won't eat, and when he finally does, I feel like I've lost what I've gained, because he starts being aggressive all over again.

Also, he is not fixed. Unfortunately. I know, I know. I want him fixed too, but as said, parents are not helping me out here.

equineartworks
Dec. 27, 2008, 03:49 PM
I'm going to be very honest and say that without the entire family on board with you it is going to be difficult, if not impossible to rectify this behavior. It might not be possible at all, but at least with consistancy you can known in your heart you tried your best.

I would have to agree with your parents in regards to your little brother too...the dog has already drawn blood...no telling he wont do it again and can you live with yourself if it is your brother who is seriously injured? Biting is dangerous honey, and I know it is hard but is something you need to make your heart believe (((hugs)))

goeslikestink
Dec. 27, 2008, 03:53 PM
matey the dog has drawn blood ad bites, regardless of type the kindest thing is to have him pts as this type of dog will not get re homed as food aggression is one of the things they must past which he wont be able to

and hes outside a lot of a dog triaing is how you keep him and how you socailise with him
to humans and to other dogs and animals, unfortunately no one given him the time of day as hes outside mostly so has to defend for himself no doubt
and your a minor you have no option than to lewt your parents do what right
how would you feel if he jumped up and bite your brother in the face as hes younger than you
you can not keep a dog in a home that has agrressive behavioural problems and once they drew blood theres no turning back

be a grown up and accept that this isnt a dog for a young family and take him to the shleter
and tell them hes agrressive.. but even if you didnt they will find out and they will put him to sleep

dont get another dog unless you can spend the time with it, in how to socialise it
trian it, and not to be left outside all day long especially in weather like we have nowi hope he has decent shelter

and hes not done -- maey this is a problem which isnt going to have a happy ending
so be a grown up teen and accept it....... the dog bites and your mums not going to help as she afraid of the dog and you might get bite he sounds vicious hes not olny food agressive but agrressive in general -
the grown up thing you can do is to take him to a vet or shelter and ask for him to be destroyed and stay with him as then he has freedom and doesnt have to defend himself at every corner- better for the dog better for you and better for your family
and you would then be classed as not a teen but an adult-- if a baby got bite by this dog how would you feel------- horrfied as you could have prevented it -- get my drift
do the decent thing and have the dog pts

downthecenterlinetheycome
Dec. 27, 2008, 03:58 PM
Thanks. I just wanted to clarify - this behavior is when I was pushing all his buttons. Usually it's more like, pause, tense, not actually snapping, but it just depends. He has not really snapped at my baby brother, only when all his buttons are pushed by me or someone else bigger. He does not snap at my dad. Also, he's tiny, (6-8 lbs?) and quite young. I think he really could be rehabbed, all I'm asking is for a couple of weeks. He is a very sweet dog otherwise. Also, our old golden retriever loves him to death.

He does get played with every day, and sometimes comes in the house, but my parents do not want inside dogs.

goeslikestink
Dec. 27, 2008, 04:03 PM
dont go backwards on what you said- thats an excuse for the dog
the dog has issues be a grown up and accept the fact that this dog is not for a family
and not for anyoone as its drew blood already
get it into your head----- the dog has to go- to the shelter
now you van either be grown up and do the decent thing and stay with him
or you can be a child and let your mum do the decent thing
either way the dog will be pts

your mum is thinking of you and the whole family shes not being selfish she being a good mum in protecting her family and doing whats right------ she knows and so do you
wake up girl one day this could be you in a few years time with a young family an a baby a little dog can kill a baby just like playing with a rag doll- instance its doesnt have to be a big dog it can be any dog
a dog once its drawn blood is a dangerous dog- under the laws in uk as odnt know if they have them in usa- some states might be different
the dog has to be destroyed if it classed as dangerous-- yours is regardless of age or type
hes dangerous-- wether you push buttons or not
a dog should never ever rule the house hold-- ever,, a dog should be kind and obediant
once the dog has your no hes in control and not you and not at any time would you could you get him off r stop him in time if he decided to have a go-------- snaps are as quick as lightenng

look at these http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.plasticsurgery4u.com%2Fproced ure_folder%2Fface_lac_dogbite.html&ei=SplWSdeNGtit-gbxmKDQDw&usg=AFQjCNFFQuTt4OvWTAvcbdfTnUDLkv6x4g&sig2=142Dldi5E8fGOBrTHuPepA

read this which is only one state http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=7&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.illinois-dog-bite-attorney.com%2F&ei=SplWSdeNGtit-gbxmKDQDw&usg=AFQjCNHdvq0HAnrf4C5-An3PaGIOSWBlaA&sig2=DXIAZpWUaWNY_BQWF9p25w

look at this -- http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=9&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbc.co.uk%2F1%2Fhi%2Fhealth% 2F7264620.stm&ei=SplWSdeNGtit-gbxmKDQDw&usg=AFQjCNH6GzgwqOHSvEpOcF0B5s0ma4jsRw&sig2=zYaDbldeBeeNRUP8NuhDJQ

now do you want to be like this or your brother-- be grown up and support your mums decession
as shes right and your wrong-- the dog is dangerous ge that in to your head

like i said time to grow up- either be a child teen or be an adult one
the child wont accept and thinks only of himself
the adult teen thinks and lsitens to reasons - and is supportive

your mum has supported you in her care and your education and your horses love you and guides
right from wrong in all walks of life

this time help her and give something back- by being a grown up and accept her reasons as right

IdahoRider
Dec. 27, 2008, 04:05 PM
I agree that unless you have everyone living in your home on board that you will have a very difficult row to hoe.
Before taking him to a shelter, try contacting a small breed rescue and see if they will take him. I do dog rescue myself, and know that sometimes rescues that deal strictly with small dogs are more willing to work through issues like this. It is worth a try.
If you do end up taking him to a shelter, please be honest and let them know up front how serious his issues are. You don't know if that shelter temperament tests, or how extensively they test, so you don't want his problem to slip through the cracks. It would not be good if he was placed in a home that had no idea he has this behavior and end up with him hurting someone. Even a smaller dog can severely hurt a young child. And it just isn't fair to the dog to bounce him around until someone decides to euthanize him.
Sheilah

wendy
Dec. 27, 2008, 04:07 PM
You're going about the training all wrong and making the aggression worse. By attacking him, punishing him, taking his stuff by force you've taught him that he does indeed need to aggressively guard food from you. Instead of attacking/punishing/rolling dogs who guard what you want to do is teach the dog he has no need to guard food because you a) won't ever forcibly take it away from him; and b) you give him food. Basic re-training protocol: hand-feed the dog every bite he gets for a week. Next, give him a tiny bit of food in a bowl. When it's empty take the bowl and re-fill and give it to him. Notice what he's learning- if you take his bowl from him a good thing happens next so he starts to like having you take his bowl. Depending on how relaxed he's getting, the next thing is to wander up and toss excellent treats on his food, so he starts to enjoy people being near him when he is eating. It's also a good idea to teach any dog to drop objects on command cause you'll need to get stuff away from him at some time and trying to forcibly take things only teaches dogs to distrust and be aggressive. but that's a long lesson.
There's a booklet Mine! by Donaldson that you may want to get/ give to your parents. It carefully explains in detail the problem of dog guarding and how to prevent it/ train it away.
Oh, and you should NEVER "alpha roll" a dog. The idea of an "alpha roll" was discredited decades ago and teaches dogs nothing but distrust towards their owners.

JaneeneSings
Dec. 27, 2008, 04:12 PM
Great response, Wendy! Ditto that. ;)

Trakehner
Dec. 27, 2008, 04:13 PM
Sorry, but he's drawn blood and qualifies as psycho.

I wouldn't take him to the pound, I'd have him put to sleep.

There are too many nice and lovely dogs and cats at the shelters being put to sleep due to lack of homes. Life's too short, get a nice and loving dog who will add to the family's joy and will be a good member of the pack.

Sorry, but he's just not worth the injuries and risks. Time for the "green needle".

Bluey
Dec. 27, 2008, 04:20 PM
Alpha rolls is a badly thought out theory, doesn't work, as you have found out, just makes aggression worse, Cesar Milan nothwithstanding.:no:

Wtihout the whole family working on changing his behavior and as a yard dog, not a house companion, I don't think even a professional would be of much help.
Wendy already gave you a sensible plan to try to work with your dog some.
Try asking here:

http://www.mysmartpuppy.com/

Have you asked your vet what he thinks? The vet may even have ideas for you, if he is basically a dog with a nice temperament but some bad habits, or tell you that he is a "sharp" dog, that is of questionable temperament for a pet.

Some dogs are really beyond help, lucky that he is small, or he may have hurt someone badly.

If it comes to that, the local animal control shelter will euthanize him for you, if you don't want your vet to do it.

wendy
Dec. 27, 2008, 04:28 PM
Sorry, but he's drawn blood and qualifies as psycho
no there are many situations where I would agree with you, but this dog is biting solely because of the way he is being treated. There is a really good chance that if they start training away the resource-guarding properly he will be fine. he's not psycho, he's simply defending himself. Alpha rolls are horrible. To a dog being forcibly alpha rolled means he's about to be killed by his attacker. Self-defense when one believes one is about to be murdered is usually considered an acceptable excuse for using violence against one's attacker.

equineartworks
Dec. 27, 2008, 04:36 PM
I agree with Wendy on many points but the dog is in a family with a small child and the majority of the family is not willing to re-train the dog.

That, in my experiences, is a ticking time bomb. :(

goeslikestink
Dec. 27, 2008, 04:36 PM
no there are many situations where I would agree with you, but this dog is biting solely because of the way he is being treated. There is a really good chance that if they start training away the resource-guarding properly he will be fine. he's not psycho, he's simply defending himself. Alpha rolls are horrible. To a dog being forcibly alpha rolled means he's about to be killed by his attacker. Self-defense when one believes one is about to be murdered is usually considered an acceptable excuse for using violence against one's attacker.

i agree with what you said wendy and i have a funny feeling this dog has been tuaght to act the way he is by what i call teasing the dog so it becomes aggresive and by what she says she does to it, if other members do that to and the dog is now a yard dog the trust liek you say is gone
and there not in a position to get that back,,,, this dog isnt for them as this dog distrust them
and would take an expreinced handler to regain that trust if it could be regain
in other words they have made the dog like he is--
a toy aplay thing -- fogetting hes a lving animal and one to be respected just as you or me would respect a human or an animal--- and the dogs the one that suffers its not about triaing the dog so much as triaining the owners and family memebrs youcant treat a dog
as a thing,,,,,,,,,,,,,now the dog with more likely be pts as its drawn blood and any shelter will do a means test and it will fail- so not fair on the dog to prolong things and not fair on the dog when truthfully its not his fault how he is but the owners that trained him to be that way

Buffyblue
Dec. 27, 2008, 04:39 PM
When I want to take something away from my puppy, I bring over something to exchange it for (like a doggie treat, piece of cheese, hot dog. etc) and say "give" then when she drops the object I want to get back, I immediately hand her the treat.

jetsmom
Dec. 27, 2008, 04:46 PM
Ditto Wendy. But wanted to add that a shih tsu/Peke is not an outdoor dog breed. He might have a better life with a different family that would make him an indoor dog with no kids.

Alpha rolls, are an outdated, ineffective training method that frequently causes more aggression.

Dogforums.com is a good dog bb with good training advice.

Bluey
Dec. 27, 2008, 05:02 PM
Here are two of some of many places that explain why "alpha roll" as a training method was a myth we better quit using.
I don't know either of those trainers:

http://www.4pawsu.com/leaderadv.htm

http://watchandtrain.com/dogtraining/blogs/thoughts/archive/2008/03/10/alpha-roll-one-mistake-when-working-with-aggressive-dogs.aspx

downthecenterlinetheycome
Dec. 27, 2008, 05:48 PM
Actually, the alpha rolls were done by the recommendation of my vet. (???) No, goeslikestink, I do not 'tease' him. I will try your strategy Wendy, I did try it for a while a long time ago, but as we were in the process of moving, I wasn't very organized. He is 7 months old and very sweet otherwise, a total lovebug. As for 'outside dog', we are in SoCal, so the weather isn't exactly freezing (despite these last few weeks), and he has the option of going in the house or garage at night. He is thrilled to be outside - we bought him as a lap dog, but he turns out to be more of an 'outside dog', after all.

chaltagor
Dec. 27, 2008, 06:06 PM
Another poster to say please please stop doing anything agressive to this dog. The "alpha rolls" are agressive. Canids in the wild do not do this unless they are fighting. The subordinate members of the pack will show appeasement and roll on their own. This is a WORLD of difference from being forced over. But guess what? Your dog is not a wild canine! He's a domestic house pet.

And your vet is not a behavior specialist. Good for you for asking for help, now go to the right places and ask for help. Like a dog behavior forum. Read the 4paws link from Bluey, it's a good start.

Cherry
Dec. 27, 2008, 06:59 PM
Everyone who lives with this dog has to be on board or nothing can be accomplished. The biggest hurdle I see here is getting this dog neutered--right away--if you're going to keep it. That is, at least, a start. If you can't afford it perhaps your vet's office knows where you can get some help with the cost of neutering--there are groups all over the place who help with this, if you can just hook up with one.

If that can't happen where he is then he should be taken to the shelter or re-homed with someone who can afford to neuter him, knows how to re-train a dog and has the time to spend with him. I don't think the dog is a hopeless case but, having watched Animal Planet, he needs to go somewhere where he at least has a chance at a normal life. Some of the SPCAs have behavioralists that can evaluate the dog and determine if he is a candidate for re-homing. ;) But I say it starts with neutering!

I saw one of the SPCAs on Animal Planet evaluating a dog for food aggression. They had this long pole with a fake hand on the end with which they used to pull and push a full bowl of dog food around. At first I thought "WTF?", but then the lightbulb went off! :lol: Better a fake hand get bit than a real human's hand! :lol: The dog passed with flying colors but they never said what they would do with the dog if it had failed. I don't know if food aggression can be conquered.

Why don't you contact that lady on Animal Planet that does that show, "It's Me or the Dog!":
http://animal.discovery.com/tv/its-me-or-dog/index.html . I've watched several shows and she has done amazing things with very nasty dogs!!!! But food agression hasn't been covered yet--sorry... :(

Bluey
Dec. 27, 2008, 07:05 PM
Actually, the alpha rolls were done by the recommendation of my vet. (???) No, goeslikestink, I do not 'tease' him. I will try your strategy Wendy, I did try it for a while a long time ago, but as we were in the process of moving, I wasn't very organized. He is 7 months old and very sweet otherwise, a total lovebug. As for 'outside dog', we are in SoCal, so the weather isn't exactly freezing (despite these last few weeks), and he has the option of going in the house or garage at night. He is thrilled to be outside - we bought him as a lap dog, but he turns out to be more of an 'outside dog', after all.

Seven months, not neutered yet, how is his house breaking coming along?;)

I wonder also if your home is the right one for that dog, if you are the only one that cares for him and are a kid, not the adult in charge?:(

Many years ago vets were taught to hold a dog down to make it mind better, so maybe your vet has missed the newer methods?
I would start with another vet, maybe one in a vet group that has one certified as a behaviorist, or look for a shelter that keeps dogs to rehome, not the local animal control, that most times can't give dogs with a problem any time.

Young, little dogs are considerably more adoptable than larger ones, so there is a chance for him, if you have to give him up.

downthecenterlinetheycome
Dec. 27, 2008, 07:17 PM
Actually Bluey, he is housebroken. :) Actually, he's pee-pad trained.

I will work on the parents about getting him neutered, it seems like they just don't care. Thanks for the good advice, I will follow it. Hopefully it will work...

IdahoRider
Dec. 27, 2008, 08:27 PM
It isn't so much the weather being appropriate for him to live outside, but rather an issue of social structure. Dogs are pack animals, regardless of their size, and they want to be with their pack. They need to be with their pack. And you and your family are his pack. By leaving him to live outside the majority of his time, you are cutting him off from a very important part of life. No wonder he guards his "stuff". As far as he is concerned you don't have much social standing.
I see so many dogs coming into rescue that have been left to live outside in a suburban back yard, given no training and no direction and then surrendered because they bark too much, or knock the kids over when the kids want to get on the trampoline. Or they bite. The owners seem surprised and DISAPPOINTED in the dog's behavior, despite the fact that they have never done anything to actually teach the dog what is acceptable. No obedience classes. No exercise.
They need training. They need exercise. They need a place in the house. It doesn't matter how big they are, or how little. They all need the same things.
If you can't give this dog those things, and if everyone who lives in your home isn't on the same page and willing and able to do the exact same thing, then you are just postponing the inevitable.
Find a reputable rescue and surrender him to someone who can work with him around his issues and thank his lucky stars that he is a small dog and not a black mix breed of medium size.
Sheilah

Rallycairn
Dec. 27, 2008, 10:08 PM
Totally agree with those who suggest a training protocol such as Jean Donaldson describes in Mine! And just want to add from personal experience that I've had such a protocol work, for examples, once with a dog who just got tense and growled, and then again with another girl who had a history of biting with shallow puncture. Just giving you those examples to give you hope that there is a good chance to help dogs who are resource guarders.

However, it is going to be hard, likely impossible, if not everyone in the family is on board. On the other hand, they may agree to follow a new type of training protocol to give the new training a chance to work, or to at least agree to simply leave the dog alone until you have a chance to try the new type of training (like Donaldson's), if your dog can be safely kept from biting while you are seeking other options.

But the best solution may be finding a rescue, apprising them fully of the issues, and they may well be able to work with your dog. The biter I mentioned above was a dog in the rescue program I volunteer with. She was successfully rehomed with a family fully informed of her issues. I worked with her new family to explain the desensitization protocol, which they started from day one with her to keep the resource guarding from reappearing when she got to her new home.

You are also on the right track about HIRING A PROFESSIONAL trainer, but do look for someone willing to do positive training with desensitization and counterconditioning, which is the behavior science term for programs like Wendy describes and like the ones described in detail in the Donaldson book. You should definitely find a positive professional trainer if you are going to try to keep the dog, as biting is a serious issue, obviously.

I know you said your family is against hiring a trainer, but again, maybe if you explain you have discovered some new options, they may reconsider. If you must surrender the dog, you will probably feel better if you can find a rescue group rather than going to the shelters.

austin
Dec. 27, 2008, 10:21 PM
SMartpack has a Dog Tranquility supplement that has helped our Jack Russel, who likes to pick fights with other dogs. Magnesium and B1 supplement. took the "edge" off a little.

summerhorse
Dec. 28, 2008, 12:06 AM
Because the rest of the family is not willing to go the distance for this dog it is better he find a new home with someone who can. If you can afford it get him neutered and if he DOES have to go to a shelter at least he has a tiny bit positive about him. But otherwise contact rescues and try to place him yourself, with his history the shelters will probably have him put down before you get out of the parking lot. He needs a trainer fast!

EponaRoan
Dec. 28, 2008, 01:03 AM
Well, if you can get the rest of the family on board, I like most of the techniques of "nothing in life is free' where you make the dog earn privilages.

http://www.mwcr.org/nilif.htm

Otherwise, please contact some of the local small breed rescues and inform them of the issues. He's young and I suspect with neutering and some training/leadership that he is very likely to come around.

goeslikestink
Dec. 28, 2008, 04:36 AM
Actually Bluey, he is housebroken. :) Actually, he's pee-pad trained.

I will work on the parents about getting him neutered, it seems like they just don't care. Thanks for the good advice, I will follow it. Hopefully it will work...

thats not good enough a dog at 7mths should be fully trianed as in house trianed if you have had since a puppy its cosistancy of when he eats or drinks shove him out back to pee
and praze him when he does or pooh praze the dog and say good lad

dog like prazes and like to please, shoiving outside your denying a fmaily bond
having brought as a lap dog isnt the ideal thing no dog should be a lap dog but a dog
when i say teasing -- it means not teasing as give him a sweet and then not give it to him

but when you playing with him your not rewarding him by letting him an object
so he guards it - thats teasing

as for what your vet said about aplha roll hes wrong dog are pack animals they look to you as there pack leader- if they havent got one then they will be come pack leader
therefore allpha dog-----
a dog thats not nutured can quickly become obessesive,,plus the dog thats not got the correct training then becomes aggressive- and that can be like i said any dog

but none of it will owrk if no one else in the family is going to be stuctive or constructive in giving this puppy the correction it so badly needs as none are willing as it bites and is awful at play so what happens the dog gets chucked outside and deemed a beast of a dog

treating it as lap dog is like a toy or play thing------- dogs are living animals like you or me
they have to be respected

gonna give you some thing to think about a senerio --- theres you and your brother
your brother looks into your diary--------

then what he does is he takes that to school and shows all his mates


how is this relevent to whats happening with you and the dog?

and how would you feel?
and is it teasing?

libgrrl
Dec. 28, 2008, 11:30 AM
I don't think your dog is unadoptable at all. However, based on what you say about your family (small child in home, lack of interest/commitment from parents) you would be giving him his best chance if you tried to rehome him *now.*

Very small and young dogs like yours -- especially if they get along with other dogs -- can pretty easily be placed in the rescue community as long as you are completely honest about his issues. He is also at an "age" when they tend to exhibit their worst behaviors (adolescent onset "shyness" gets lots of formerly cute puppies sent to shelters because this "phase" is often misinterpreted as aggression). Do him and your family a favor and try to place him with a rescue that can work with him.

downthecenterlinetheycome
Dec. 28, 2008, 01:18 PM
thats not good enough a dog at 7mths should be fully trianed as in house trianed if you have had since a puppy its cosistancy of when he eats or drinks shove him out back to pee
and praze him when he does or pooh praze the dog and say good lad

dog like prazes and like to please, shoiving outside your denying a fmaily bond
having brought as a lap dog isnt the ideal thing no dog should be a lap dog but a dog
when i say teasing -- it means not teasing as give him a sweet and then not give it to him

but when you playing with him your not rewarding him by letting him an object
so he guards it - thats teasing

as for what your vet said about aplha roll hes wrong dog are pack animals they look to you as there pack leader- if they havent got one then they will be come pack leader
therefore allpha dog-----
a dog thats not nutured can quickly become obessesive,,plus the dog thats not got the correct training then becomes aggressive- and that can be like i said any dog

but none of it will owrk if no one else in the family is going to be stuctive or constructive in giving this puppy the correction it so badly needs as none are willing as it bites and is awful at play so what happens the dog gets chucked outside and deemed a beast of a dog

treating it as lap dog is like a toy or play thing------- dogs are living animals like you or me
they have to be respected

gonna give you some thing to think about a senerio --- theres you and your brother
your brother looks into your diary--------

then what he does is he takes that to school and shows all his mates


how is this relevent to whats happening with you and the dog?

and how would you feel?
and is it teasing?

??? No idea what you're going with the diary thing. I am trying a new strategy right now for training before I get the MINE! book. I have him eat from my hand, WHILE I scratch his itchy spots and play with his furr and stuff he usually likes. At first he was tense and froze, now he shakes his leg while he eats and seems to like me touching him as he eats. I also tried something else to go with the crumb on the floor, dog defensive over it scenario. After my golden had eaten there were kibbles on the floor so naturally the little dog dove for them, but I got some little shreds of our christmas dinner (turkey) and put my hand in front of his face as he ate - basically, he would be hunched over the kibble eating, I would offer a piece of turkey, getting into his "personal eating space" more than he would usually allow by dropping it right in front of his nose. He got so the second my hand went near him as he was eating he would pause and wait for the turkey. I think that's some kind of progress!

I have also been doing more excersize for him, walking him next to my golden retriever, more of a pack setting.

I would prefer for him to be an inside dog, but for the time being that is not possible. We raised him inside, but he ended up outside, as he likes to be with my golden retriever, who sheds like crazy. Both are inside for some times of the day, like when the baby's not around, but not for that much time.

Goeslikestink, he is kind of both pee-pad trained and housetrained. He'll do either. If there's a pee-pad available, he'll go on that, if there isn't, he'll go outside. It's pretty handy, especially when he's in the garage or house overnight when it's raining/cold.

Thanks everyone for the good advice. I understand that if he hasn't made drastic progress in the next couple (or less?) weeks, I will need to find a private home for him that has the experience and motivation to fix this behavior, or a rescue who is willing to rehabilitate and rehome him. He is not a bad dog - he's very loving and cuddly, happy inside or out, good with other dogs, doesn't bite in play, etc, it's just the food aggression. That's the reason I'm not considering euthanasia for the guy - he CAN be rehabilitated, I'm sure. I just hope I can do it.

goeslikestink
Dec. 28, 2008, 02:57 PM
you done a lot in a day but wont take a day to fix it
also what i was trying to say is respect the dog
i now know why as you never said theres a baby in the house this isnt just about one dog but 2, as they have been placed outside since the new arrival
havent they

downthecenterlinetheycome
Dec. 28, 2008, 04:55 PM
Yes, I know. I'm afraid that even if the problem is fixed, my parents will give him away anyway, because they wouldn't think they could trust him with other children (the toddler's friends, etc).

I mentioned in my first post, it's with the 2 year old and his (future) friends that the problem really lies. He knows his boundaries mostly with us older people, but doesn't see the 2 year old as a "leader". Anything I can do?

RainyDayRide
Dec. 28, 2008, 07:09 PM
downthecenter.., I commend you for your desire to work with your pup on his food aggression issues, but I agree with earlier posters that it is difficult/impossible to succeed in training without the cooperation of the rest of your household.

In addition, small dogs are, in general, far from ideal companions in a home with young children - their size often makes them feel threatened by toddlers who are far larger than they are, unsteady on their feet, and insensitive to the discomfort a casual squeeze or yank can bring. That is the reason dog rescues often refuse to adopt out small dogs to homes with small children. Your family's golden is a far better candidate for a pal for your 2 yo brother and his pals.

I suggest you google "small dog rescue STATE" where "STATE" is replaced by the name of your state. As others have written, your pup is still young and cute enough to be a good candidate for training and placement via a competent rescue. Helping him to find a more compatible, more likely to be successful, home is the best, most loving gift you can give him.

goeslikestink
Dec. 29, 2008, 04:12 AM
Yes, I know. I'm afraid that even if the problem is fixed, my parents will give him away anyway, because they wouldn't think they could trust him with other children (the toddler's friends, etc).

I mentioned in my first post, it's with the 2 year old and his (future) friends that the problem really lies. He knows his boundaries mostly with us older people, but doesn't see the 2 year old as a "leader". Anything I can do?

let me tell you something which isnt going into your head
both dogs and not just one-- as no doubt if the little dogs like this the other ones the same as iam sorry but people will treat dogs the same way if they not used to dogs or handling dogs
a child of 2 eyes is the same at the same level as the retriever
the puppy is slightly smaller ok got that

when a dog plays with another dog the smaller dog will submit to the alpha dog
by laying down and paws in the air, if the bigger dog is not alpha and the little one is
as hes agrressive then he will go for the thoat of the bigger dog in play which can also result to fighting as in properfighteing the little dog will attack his thoart area bigger dogs can normally propect them selves as they have a large amount of gruff
and the little dogs attached them sleves to that dive and duck under under a bigger dog
but the bigger can have the upper hand as having a larger mouth in which if really bad will grab hold of a smaller dog and shake it like a rag doll this isnt play no more but certain death for a smaller dog if in afight or if the bigger dog is in attack mode

achild of 2- has no way of protecting itself if either dogs were to attack
it or jump up at the child the child would go flying and a dogs natural instiinct is for the thoart area which normally is face and thoart


you should never ever ever play with a dog on the floor by that i mean never let the dog go behind you, as that would encoruage bad behaviour for exsample dirty dog
as in jumping humping type which little dogs havea tendancy to do if not stopped will grab anyones legs - which in my book s a serious no no

you should away command a dog from eye to eye get him to look at you and command
sit, stay or ly down, you should have a choker on the dog with this little dog
so you can have a short lead and if he doesnt comply correct him, with a short sharp tug of the lead and say no-- dont do lots of treats as this will only reward a bad behaviour and make it ten times worse,,, always say one comand in a tone of voice and not lots of of little ones,
dont be handy handy as ii call it ie dont keep raising hands upa nd down in front or at sides of you and say get down get down as in truth your telling the dog to jump up
keep your hands tuck to the side and only use them for commands and in one single command

to be honest i would re home both dogs if they are like this with one dog they more than liekly going to be like it with the other
niether dog is being treated well as family members as they are both stuck outside most of the time and left to there won devices and not being seen to and being socalised with the family and faimly life plus not being socilaised in the way of walks to other dogs
which is not the best or ideal home to have for either one
your best bet is to take both dogs to a rehoming centre

thatmoody
Dec. 29, 2008, 06:26 AM
I'm afraid that I have to agree, as much as I hate to say it. If everyone in your family were dedicated to retraining both dogs, that would be one thing, but they aren't. And having a young child in the house is quite overwhelming, so while I might like to blame your parents I have some sympathy for them, as well :).

We raised our daughter in a household with a giant (150 lb) lab/catahoula leopard dog cross, and he's been wonderful with her. We also have a chihuahua who is not quite as wonderful. Chi's are NOT good family dogs, for the reasons outlined above, but we managed with consistent training of both the child and the dog. It took a lot of work, though, at a time when I had little energy for it. If I hadn't been raised in a dog training family it wouldn't have been as easy, either. Both of our dogs (and a new chi pup) live in the house 24/7, and though they shed, and take up a lot of room, they are part of our family, and would not be relegated outside no matter WHAT they did.

Rehoming or even euthanasia isn't the end of the world - we tend to think of our dogs as this weird combination of children and pets; they couldn't possibly be better off without us, but we won't put in the time to really assimilate them into our families. Better for a small dog to be in a child-free home - an elderly person would probably love the companionship, and the dog would have a purpose and a job.

dalpal
Dec. 29, 2008, 08:15 AM
let me tell you something which isnt going into your head both dogs and not just one-- as no doubt if the little dogs like this the other ones the same as iam sorry but people will treat dogs the same way if they not used to dogs or handling dogs
a child of 2 eyes is the same at the same level as the retriever
the puppy is slightly smaller ok got that

when a dog plays with another dog the smaller dog will submit to the alpha dog
by laying down and paws in the air, if the bigger dog is not alpha and the little one is
as hes agrressive then he will go for the thoat of the bigger dog in play which can also result to fighting as in properfighteing the little dog will attack his thoart area bigger dogs can normally propect them selves as they have a large amount of gruff
and the little dogs attached them sleves to that dive and duck under under a bigger dog
but the bigger can have the upper hand as having a larger mouth in which if really bad will grab hold of a smaller dog and shake it like a rag doll this isnt play no more but certain death for a smaller dog if in afight or if the bigger dog is in attack mode

achild of 2- has no way of protecting itself if either dogs were to attack
it or jump up at the child the child would go flying and a dogs natural instiinct is for the thoart area which normally is face and thoart


you should never ever ever play with a dog on the floor by that i mean never let the dog go behind you, as that would encoruage bad behaviour for exsample dirty dog
as in jumping humping type which little dogs havea tendancy to do if not stopped will grab anyones legs - which in my book s a serious no no

you should away command a dog from eye to eye get him to look at you and command
sit, stay or ly down, you should have a choker on the dog with this little dog
so you can have a short lead and if he doesnt comply correct him, with a short sharp tug of the lead and say no-- dont do lots of treats as this will only reward a bad behaviour and make it ten times worse,,, always say one comand in a tone of voice and not lots of of little ones,
dont be handy handy as ii call it ie dont keep raising hands upa nd down in front or at sides of you and say get down get down as in truth your telling the dog to jump up
keep your hands tuck to the side and only use them for commands and in one single command

to be honest i would re home both dogs if they are like this with one dog they more than liekly going to be like it with the other
niether dog is being treated well as family members as they are both stuck outside most of the time and left to there won devices and not being seen to and being socalised with the family and faimly life plus not being socilaised in the way of walks to other dogs
which is not the best or ideal home to have for either one
your best bet is to take both dogs to a rehoming centre

Stop being so nasty to this kid who is just attempting to help her dog. She has gotten some good advice here and SHE IS TRYING TO HELP the dog.

I'm sick of reading your nasty comments to this kid....if you have advice, great....but lay off with the rude comments. :mad:

equineartworks
Dec. 29, 2008, 09:56 AM
Better for a small dog to be in a child-free home - an elderly person would probably love the companionship, and the dog would have a purpose and a job.

I was going to highly suggest that. My parents have a shih tzu and frankly I think she is the grouchiest, most unloveable creature on the planet. She bites, growls...nasty thing, just nasty. And they aren't real huge on the consistant re-training gig so nothing is going to change the dog. BUT! She LOVES the OLDIES! She goes with my Mom to visit my GM in the nursing home and she turns into this ball of LOVE. :confused: :confused: She seems to be able to only love one person at a time...I guess it is a Shih-Tzu thing. I dunno, I'm a huge dog girl, I generally don't want a dog I can't pet standing up. :lol: I'm getting used to havign a little guy right now, but he a big dog in a little body so we get along jsut fine ;)

downthecenterlinetheycome
Dec. 29, 2008, 12:26 PM
Thank you all for your help. I will try to buy 'Mine', continue training, and hope for the best. Is what I've been doing so far OK?


let me tell you something which isnt going into your head
both dogs and not just one-- as no doubt if the little dogs like this the other ones the same as iam sorry but people will treat dogs the same way if they not used to dogs or handling dogs
a child of 2 eyes is the same at the same level as the retriever
the puppy is slightly smaller ok got that

when a dog plays with another dog the smaller dog will submit to the alpha dog
by laying down and paws in the air, if the bigger dog is not alpha and the little one is
as hes agrressive then he will go for the thoat of the bigger dog in play which can also result to fighting as in properfighteing the little dog will attack his thoart area bigger dogs can normally propect them selves as they have a large amount of gruff
and the little dogs attached them sleves to that dive and duck under under a bigger dog
but the bigger can have the upper hand as having a larger mouth in which if really bad will grab hold of a smaller dog and shake it like a rag doll this isnt play no more but certain death for a smaller dog if in afight or if the bigger dog is in attack mode

achild of 2- has no way of protecting itself if either dogs were to attack
it or jump up at the child the child would go flying and a dogs natural instiinct is for the thoart area which normally is face and thoart


you should never ever ever play with a dog on the floor by that i mean never let the dog go behind you, as that would encoruage bad behaviour for exsample dirty dog
as in jumping humping type which little dogs havea tendancy to do if not stopped will grab anyones legs - which in my book s a serious no no

you should away command a dog from eye to eye get him to look at you and command
sit, stay or ly down, you should have a choker on the dog with this little dog
so you can have a short lead and if he doesnt comply correct him, with a short sharp tug of the lead and say no-- dont do lots of treats as this will only reward a bad behaviour and make it ten times worse,,, always say one comand in a tone of voice and not lots of of little ones,
dont be handy handy as ii call it ie dont keep raising hands upa nd down in front or at sides of you and say get down get down as in truth your telling the dog to jump up
keep your hands tuck to the side and only use them for commands and in one single command

to be honest i would re home both dogs if they are like this with one dog they more than liekly going to be like it with the other
niether dog is being treated well as family members as they are both stuck outside most of the time and left to there won devices and not being seen to and being socalised with the family and faimly life plus not being socilaised in the way of walks to other dogs
which is not the best or ideal home to have for either one
your best bet is to take both dogs to a rehoming centre

Jeez, goestlikestink, you don't need to assume. The dogs do not fight actually, apart from the little dog guarding his food (we feed them separately anyway so I can train the little dog without the golden interrupting). The little dog IS alpha, but they get along and Otter (little dog) likes Sunrose (big dog) a lot. They're great friends and Sunny (Sunrose) is much happier with him than without him.

No, Otter does not hump people. (Again, assuming.) No, Sunrose does not display food aggression like Otter. Sunrose is great with the 2 year old (he loves her to death, runs around after her telling her, "oh, my sweet sunny girl, it's awright, sweet sunny girl!" :lol: There is no way Sunrose is getting rehomed. The baby cries when we take her out of the HOUSE.

The dogs aren't left to their own devices. I play with them a lot, walk them, and they have a 1/2 acre to run around on as well. As I said, they are very affectionate, and have lived both inside and outside in different places. The reason they're not inside so much here is the landlords said they could live outside only, and that was pushing it.

I don't know why you're assuming all this, goeslikestink, and I do certainly appreciate your imput, but could you trust me for just a minute? The problem I need to fix is the food aggression.

EponaRoan
Dec. 29, 2008, 12:32 PM
Dogs can actually be just fine with little kids. Hell, when I was a baby, my nursemaid was an intact 6 year old Bulldog.

http://www.quarterpole.com/dogs/bigboy.jpg

But. Both my parents had trained him and encouraged him to be my guardian. So ... different times, different situation.

I'm not generally a small dog fan, but I do believe that raised properly - as dogs and not as accessories or unsocialized back yard dogs - that they can be just as good with kids, etc as a big(ger) dog. :)

Dune
Dec. 29, 2008, 12:45 PM
GLS gets like that, ignore her she's just "resource guarding" again. :winkgrin: I adopted a darling little black puppy from the shelter that had issues quite similar to what you are describing. They told me at the shelter he had minor issues but I discovered how bad they were one day when he was chewing on a pig's ear and I bent down to pick up a piece of plastic on the ground near the puppy. He growled :mad: at me and was just challenging me to take his treat away. Then we had another issue where he and another young dog got into it over an empty bag of potato chips. WELL, I took it very seriously, called Dr. Dog and Uncle Matty (who said the dog was going to take my face off one day) for their advice. I followed Dr. Dog's advice, and along with a friend of mine who is a dog trainer, I worked intensively with this pup. This dog is now one all of 91lbs and the biggest sweetheart you could ever meet, I trust him more with food now than I do my little JR. ;) Having said all of that, it took time and effort and we don't have little kids running around the house. In fact, I firmly believe that kids and animals should be supervised, regardless of whether or not they have "issues". I don't know if this little story will help, or if your dog can be saved, especially if your family is not on board....but I do wish you the best and think it's nice that you are trying to help this little dog and you are not getting too riled up by the suggestions/assumptions that are being made here. Oh but *do* try to get this little guy neutered...please. :yes:

Bluey
Dec. 29, 2008, 03:04 PM
OP, you may want to read thru these basic articles on dog training.

Some of those training bits may help you in your situation:

http://flyingdogpress.com/articles.html

riverbell93
Dec. 30, 2008, 11:25 AM
To add to the chorus - the alpha rolls are just a waste of time and possibly making the situation worse. To be a little different, I don't think the neutering is that important. Yes, ideally you'd get him neutered because that does reduce some aggression and you don't want him breeding anyway. But it's not a quick fix for possessive aggression, particularly when it's gotten to the stage where the dog has actually drawn blood. I'm glad he's getting more exercise and the OP seems to have gotten somewhere with his food aggression, but I keep thinking of the original description:


He is very possessive of objects and if you try to take ANYTHING away he growls, snaps, freaks out. Same with food, if you get near him while he's eating even a crumb off the floor, he apsolutely flips. I can't even describe, he growls horribly and attacks like a Pit..He has drawn blood.

I know a small dog who does this too, exact scenario, flipping out like a monster movie for little provocations like walking past where he's sitting. He has not been abused, he's not afraid of what he attacks, he simply uses extreme violence to control his surroundings. He started as a 8-month-old puppy and has never improved. If anything, his list of 'reasons' for going to this extreme behavior has lengthened. Maybe this dog is different and will improve. But for now, this is not a dog who should be in a family with small children, and he is not a dog who should be with an elderly adult - any dog who bites like this needs a lot more focus and management than most seniors should be expected to cope with, and the health risks for anyone getting bitten by a dog, even a small dog, increase for the elderly - my grandmother's cat once put her in the hospital with a scratch. I think the small dog rescue idea is the best - if the rescue is reputable.

Austin Rider
Dec. 30, 2008, 12:43 PM
I agree with the suggestion to find a local rescue group, tell them about his issues, and see if they're willing to take him. Small dogs like this are popular so a local group can have him neutered, then place him in the right kind of home with proper management and training. I find it hard to believe that he can't be turned around pretty easily, since he's only 7 months old. But he needs the right environment for this and I'm afraid your home is not it.

downthecenterlinetheycome
Dec. 30, 2008, 01:02 PM
Thanks all. :) We will be consulting a professional, and if the professional's opinion is that he should find a new home, hard as it is for me, I will follow it. I really love this dog. I have been giving him around 30mins-1hour of leashed excersize a day before feeding and have been feeding him by hand. He will tolerate brief petting as he eats by hand, and has not snapped, but has growled very quietly. Sometimes he tenses if I pet his ears, and he's mostly OK if I pet his favorite spots. This is an improvement. I think the increased excersize is helping. Is there anything I can do to increase the level of excersize within this time frame? I still don't think he's getting enough, but he's being excersized alongside my older golden, and she can't do TOO much for TOO long. Is it too young to jump him? (He jumps over stuff by himself often), but I'd tend not to jump a puppy for a while, for the same reasons you wouldn't jump a young horse, correct? Thanks again, and I will read all the articles offered!

riverbell93
Dec. 30, 2008, 01:20 PM
Is there anything I can do to increase the level of excersize within this time frame? I still don't think he's getting enough, but he's being excersized alongside my older golden, and she can't do TOO much for TOO long.

Climbing, and walking in sand, snow and water are all lower-stress but higher-effort exercises. If, for example, you can let the golden walk on the level ground while you encourage the little dog to clamber over tree limbs and climb small rocks, that'll make the small dog work harder without overtiring the older dog. Just be prepared for the "I'm The Tiny King Of The World!!!" stance when the little dog makes the summit of rocks, ridges and fallen trees.

Bluey
Dec. 30, 2008, 01:30 PM
Before you do much exercising and jumping with any toy dog, have a vet check for luxating patellas, that is trick knees.
It is easy to check by moving the hind legs around in certain ways and feeling for how tight the joint is.

LuvMyNSH
Dec. 30, 2008, 02:10 PM
Before you do much exercising and jumping with any toy dog, have a vet check for luxating patellas, that is trick knees.
It is easy to check by moving the hind legs around in certain ways and feeling for how tight the joint is.

Ditto this. Especially in a "designer" mix, because you know the parents weren't OFAd and probably didn't come from the best stock.

Neither shih tzus or pekes are particularly exercise tolerant, and both are prone to luxating patellas. Watch for overheating too, even if it doesn't seem that hot out to you.

downthecenterlinetheycome
Dec. 30, 2008, 02:52 PM
OK, thanks. Will talk to vet about both neutering, and checking for that.

In the meantime, should I be doing no excersize?

I don't have much varied terrain in my yard, (either flat grass or flat stone), I set up a kind of mini (easy) agility course. Tunnel to go through, paper boxes to climb, twigs 3" off the ground, small tables 2" high to walk onto, stop, sit, and walk off of, etc. Just to keep it interesting for him, I got some little treats and after some of the harder obsticles, I would give him a treat and pet him while he ate it. He has no issue with my attention as he's eating a TREAT, whereas he does when he's eating a MEAL. Huh?

After excersize I fed him by hand, then made little kibble piles on the floor and let him start eating, then told him to back up and sit, I gave him a treat, and let him resume eating. He snapped once when I put my hand by his face, but otherwise he would back up for me, or eat the treats I shoved under his nose as he ate. He does get a little tense while I pet him if he's eating his MEAL, but doesn't care if he's eating a treat. Weird.

I'm splitting his meals into several a day so he doesn't get hungry, and I can confirm the lesson regularly. Is what I'm doing OK? His big problem is being picked up when he's stealing food from the house, etc. Anything I can do to help with that?

jetsmom
Dec. 30, 2008, 03:35 PM
Walking is good. The mini agility course would be ok if it doesn't involve jumping. Longer backed dogs are also prone to back problems. I found that out as a kid when I got into jumping (horses) and thought my Lhasa would enjoy doing little courses. He ended up needing 800.00 back surgery...oops!

Neutering will help immensely. Tell your parents that it will help his attitude, plus prevent certain diseases like testicular cancer. Some places have spay/neuter days at vets that offer their services at reduced rates. Call some rescues and vets to ask if they know of any programs like that. If you really need financial assistance sometimes rescues will help, or even vets will sometimes give reduced rates.

Google "pet neuter assistance "XX (your city/state)" Many places offer programs to help.