Making friends with a stray dog - New House PICS page 61! [Archive] - Page 6

kdow

Aug. 4, 2009, 06:43 PM

Any tips on leash training? First off I need to get a collar that she can't pull her head out of (and I think a choke chain would be overkill here). Maybe one of those martingale dog collars - I have one on Candy, because she can yank her head out of a collar also. The issue with Angel is that the instant she feels any pressure on the collar, she fights it. Unless of course I have to do it with a series of tugs and not a steady pull?

My dad's theory of leashes is basically that it should NEVER be taut unless you're actively using it to communicate. So it's not a restraint so much as a method of communication - loose unless you're taking up the slack to give a little short tug, then slack again. If you keep it tight, it just lets the dog learn to pull/resist. (We also use really long training leashes so we have slack to let the leash be loose - shorter 6ft leashes can be really difficult to keep slack if you're dealing with a dog that isn't good at walking close.)

Seems to have worked with most of our dogs, but none of them have been older dogs that needed to learn about leashes - Pirate arrived pretty good on a leash.

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 4, 2009, 06:51 PM

I would use one of those nylon braided ones. I have some that have a metal ring on one end and a loop on the other, you make it sort of like a noose and slip it on them.
That way she regulates the pressure on it. Those have worked well for me.

I have one that she came home from the vets office with, but it is only 3 feet long, and every time I put it on her, as soon as she feels me tug on it - and she is lagging behind), she drops to the ground, or twists and fights it. I suppose I could do a makeshift one, by attaching an old key ring to the snap of the regular leash.

The loose leash training link was a good one, thanks, not sure how well it will work for a lagger, but perhaps if I use some stinky treats that will help. And I will have to start in the back yard, where the other 4 dogs are not making a nusiance of themselves.

Jaegermonster

Aug. 4, 2009, 07:50 PM

Hold onto the end and stand there until she finishes her hystrionics and then go on like nothing happened. If she takes one or two nice steps give her a teeny bite of a training biscuit (not a whole one, that's not necessary).
It may take half an hour to go 3', but she will eventually learn that her temper tantrum will not get the desired result and give up. Even if all she does is be nice and stand politely or even take one little step, reward and quit, then do it again later or the next day.

Almost all of mine have done that drama I'm dying thing and they get over it fairly quickly.

JanM

Aug. 4, 2009, 08:21 PM

There's always the old Barbara Woodhouse method-you put the leash on, say "Walkies" in a shrieky, high pitched voice and the dog goes with you. I think it works because the voice is so freaking irritating that the dog surrenders to get the voice to stop. I think Cesar Millan handled some of these cases and maybe someone knows what he did.

I think once you get her out the doggie door and she finds out that she can come back in she'll catch on quickly. In fact in a few days you'll be posting on here that the constant in and out is driving you batty.

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 4, 2009, 10:06 PM

Thanks for a good laugh! As soon as you mentioned it, I heard her shrill voice in my head!

The episodes of Cesar's that I have watched show the dogs pitching a fit, and he just calmly stands there and waits them out, so I guess that is what I will have to do, with the leash that she can't get out of.

I just can't wait until Angel tries to get out the dog door simultaneously as one of the other dogs, I have seen the two Aussies get wedged in there as they both got to the door at the same time.

JanM

Aug. 4, 2009, 10:19 PM

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 4, 2009, 10:27 PM

Actually, it's even funnier when there's a dog on the inside trying to get out, and one on the outside trying to get in, and with the translucent type they see the other dog and each thinks the other will back down.

I bet Angel's never been on a leash in her life until the vet's office and at your house. I bet her first car ride was when they dumped her too. Maybe if you take your best leash walking dog or two and take them around the yard with her on a leash she'll get the idea and follow the others.

Barbara Woodhouse was also a horse trainer, and apparently had a large following among horse owners too.

LOL - yes, my dogs do that, or one lays flat on the floor right in front of it, and the other dogs won't come in (Murphy is usually the one doing her best door mat imitation).

You are probably right about the leash thing, I don't think she ever wore a collar either, she still scratches at it and shakes her head, like a puppy does when they are getting used to wearing a collar.

kdow

Aug. 5, 2009, 05:06 AM

The loose leash training link was a good one, thanks, not sure how well it will work for a lagger, but perhaps if I use some stinky treats that will help. And I will have to start in the back yard, where the other 4 dogs are not making a nusiance of themselves.

Heck, start her in the house if that's the least distracting and most 'safe' environment for her right now. (One of the most common mistakes people make in training dogs is to expect them to be able to deal with increased distractions and increased duration at the same time, possibly while the dog isn't even entirely sure what they're supposed to be doing in the first place. Get the basic idea down someplace where there's nothing to distract or confuse the dog, THEN work on increasing duration OR increasing distraction - and work up to having both at the same time. :) )

I also think that 3' is really awfully short for a leash, as it doesn't give her much room at all to be 'wrong' before things turn into a tug of war. With a longer leash there's room so that you can take a couple of steps forward and then she can choose to come forward and catch up with you before the leash forces the issue, so it's not immediately leash = bad experience = fight/resist.

(I should add the other reason we prefer to leash train in a way where the leash is slack most of the time is that it seems to produce far fewer dogs who do the dropped-leash-dash - you know, when someone drops the leash on a puller and the dog is in the next county over in 2 seconds flat? :) )

MrWinston

Aug. 5, 2009, 05:30 AM

We've had success with starting dogs out on a flexi. They feel less trapped and before you know it they are walking on a shorter leash. Treats help too.

AiryFairy

Aug. 5, 2009, 06:28 AM

We've had success with starting dogs out on a flexi. They feel less trapped and before you know it they are walking on a shorter leash. Treats help too.

I hate those things. The whole point of having the dog on a leash besides control is to have them bond to you and want to walk beside you - letting them fly all over the place on the end of a flexi lead is dangerous, you really can't control things if they're way 'out there', and they don't get that their place is beside you. Most dog shows that I know of have banned the use of flexi leads altogether.

AiryFairy

Aug. 5, 2009, 06:36 AM

Not really sure, I have tried that a few times, might be time to break out the chicken again!

I just got back from the vet's office with Murphy for her checkup, tests, etc just so I can get more Heartguard for her - yikes, another 250.00 bucks out the window! Well, a small part of that was Angel's one dose of Heartguard and one Comfortis pill. Good thing I love these dogs.

However, they all said they loved the pictures and were so surprised and happy as to how well she is doing, and how quickly she has taken to house dog status.

Yes, I will be smiling a little bit as I sew up the comforter this evening. And I hope it is the last thing I have to sew for a while.

Any tips on leash training? First off I need to get a collar that she can't pull her head out of (and I think a choke chain would be overkill here). Maybe one of those martingale dog collars - I have one on Candy, because she can yank her head out of a collar also. The issue with Angel is that the instant she feels any pressure on the collar, she fights it. Unless of course I have to do it with a series of tugs and not a steady pull?

Use treats to keep her coming with you while you walk, instead of pulling or tugging which will have the opposite effect, she'll plant it and refuse to move. If she pulls back, stop immediately rather than let it escalate and urger her forward with some food. If she gets on with one of the other dogs, use them as 'bait' and put them both on leashes, she'll be more likely to follow the other dog than she will resist you. Treat her like a puppy, she'll come along quickly. I like Martingale collars for my dogs with skinny heads, but just be careful how much pulling she does, you don't want her fighting it the tighter it gets. I would encourage her forward, not use the leash.

Ripping the quilt? Ruh roh..... leaving her alone uncrated in the house would probably be a very bad idea!

MrWinston

Aug. 5, 2009, 07:49 AM

Holly Jeanne

Aug. 5, 2009, 08:46 AM

I'm away from COTH for a month and look what happens!!! Wow! Just wow! Congratulations! :D

libgrrl

Aug. 5, 2009, 10:27 AM

http://www.fearfuldogs.com/

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 5, 2009, 11:55 AM

Thanks for the tips everyone. I have to share this update.

Last night my motheri-in-law had her Mah Jonhg group come to play at our house. So at 6 PM in comes a troup (5) of total strangers, and Angel walked right up to all of them, and gave them kisses and got petted. All this from a dog that has had no human contact for 14 months! I was astounded.

This morning in a playful moment, she bit at the comforter on the bed, I immediately made the big loud "AAATTTT" sound and clapped my hands, and she flew off the bed.

She is also enjoying hanging out under the big oak tree in the front yard, so sometimes we just let her hang out, and check the front door every so often to see if she wants to come back in, since she has not learned how to use the dog door yet, and does not scratch at the door to come in either. My mission this weekend is to teach her how to use the dog door (I know, be careful what I wish for!).

This morning when my MIL came back from her tennis game, I was on the back porch with the dogs, and my MIL came in through the porch instead of the back door to the house, and Angel barked at her, and then sheepishly wagged her tail when she recognized who it was. That made me laugh because the other dogs do that all the time.

She has discovered that laying on the living room couches are even better than the futon couch in my office!

SevenDogs

Aug. 5, 2009, 12:09 PM

lcw579

Aug. 5, 2009, 12:48 PM

This thread makes me happy! I obsessively check it every time I walk past the computer - these updates are all so adorable. :D

Rubyfree

Aug. 5, 2009, 02:21 PM

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 5, 2009, 06:10 PM

MM, I thought of you this afternoon when I accidentally watched an episode of The Dog Whisperer (NO lighting the Cesar Millan fires!). I was about to switch the channel when they were talking about his next case- who happened to be a feral female shepherd mix who had taken up residence at a horse farm!

All I'm going to say is- you could have showed those folks a few things. Ya dun' good. :D

I wonder if that was the episode that I didn't see, where he had to sort of trap it with movable panels, and it was rather a bad scene from what I was told. Pretty funny that it would be a female shepard mix on a horse farm, just like Angel.

The problem with my story is that it would not fit into a 30 minute TV show episode!

Today before dinner, she was actually starting to play with the aussies in the front yard, there was some running and leaping going on. I was a little bit on alert since Angel had her back fur up while playing, not sure if I needed to worry since there was lots of tail wagging going on at the same time.

kdow

Aug. 5, 2009, 07:01 PM

I hate those things. The whole point of having the dog on a leash besides control is to have them bond to you and want to walk beside you - letting them fly all over the place on the end of a flexi lead is dangerous, you really can't control things if they're way 'out there', and they don't get that their place is beside you. Most dog shows that I know of have banned the use of flexi leads altogether.

We like longer training leads because it lets you gradually bring the dog in closer if necessary (i.e. you get polite behavior on the lead first and then you work on how close the dog is to you while giving polite behavior - we don't start right away trying to teach the dog to heel, just to pay attention to their position relative to the person holding the leash) but I agree that flexi-leads are awful.

For one, imo they really mess with the ability to use the leash as a communication tool, because there's so much between you and the dog - with both of our dogs now you just have to take up slack to the point where the clip 'lifts' slightly on the collar, no actual tug or pull at all, and they know that means 'pay more attention' - you don't have that kind of finesse with the big flexi-lead.

For another, they teach the dog to pull because of the simple mechanism of the way the line is reeled out - and I never ever want my dog to pull on the leash, so that's completely counter-intuitive to me.

Further, I really would be quite concerned with using one with an easily frightened dog like Angel - if you drop a leash or a training lead, and the dog runs off, the leash just drags along behind. If you drop a flexi-lead, you have that big old plastic thing bouncing along 'chasing' the dog, potentially making a heck of a racket, and also making you pretty likely to get a couple bruises from trying to grab it.

Finally, I know people who've been injured by the thin cable in Flexi-leads.

So I really don't like the things at all. :) It really isn't that hard to manage the length of a 15ft training lead - I found it particularly easy to get used to after being used to handling lunge lines on horses. You just fold the thing up to the length you want and then can fold more or let some out depending on your need.

kdow

Aug. 5, 2009, 07:06 PM

Today before dinner, she was actually starting to play with the aussies in the front yard, there was some running and leaping going on. I was a little bit on alert since Angel had her back fur up while playing, not sure if I needed to worry since there was lots of tail wagging going on at the same time.

Pirate seems to do that sometimes too when playing - the line of fur on his back fluffs up even though he's quite clearly behaving in a 'play' mode. Haven't figured out why/what's going on, but it always seems to just be play.

JanM

Aug. 5, 2009, 08:44 PM

jetsmom

Aug. 5, 2009, 09:27 PM

Can you take one of your dogs that she likes for a walk at the same time? Or a couple with her at the same time? That seems to help even the most fearful.

I HATE flexi leashes.

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 5, 2009, 09:33 PM

To teach doggie door simply walk up to it from the outside, put your hands on her butt and push her through--and then go inside, feed great treat and praise lavishly. Repeat a couple of times and she'll be trained-and immediately start playing with the doggie door. I hope you have spare doggie door flaps, you'll probably need them from overuse and probably ear plugs too. I have one of the petsafe/Johnson flexible see through patio doors-and my dog enjoys pushing it a bunch of times and then going out--it gets irritating very quickly.

Angel really looks like a friend's dog from a farm in Georgia. He has the wrinkled forehead and the vet's guess is mostly German Shepherd and some Shar Pei--he always looks so worried. And Odie's coloring is exactly the same. His hackles go up when he plays also.

The only problem with trying to push her throught the door is that if you push her she drops and cowers on the ground - poor little thing still has flashbacks to something in her past.

I've learned to tune out the "flap-flap-flap" of the dog door, it is right outside my office door (about 12 feet of hallway away) and I already have 4 dogs that use it all day long. Trust me, much better to hear the flapping, than the constant getting up and down to let dogs in and out as they were banging on the door!

We had another really big thunderstorm tonight, and Angel stood under my desk panting during the worst of it. Now she is sleeping on the couch, exhausted. Made me feel bad that she used to be out alone in that horrible weather, and glad that she will never have to be out in it every again.

Oh, I spoke with the neighbors, and got mauled by their energetic pup (the same one that served as bait to catch Angel last week). I guess this morning before I went to the barn, the owner was walking the pup off leash, and he darted under the fence into my pastures looking all around for his girlfriend. Luckily Munchkin didn't take offense and try to stomp on him! I also took out the wading pool, which confused the horses today, they got used to drinking out of it instead of having to walk an extra 50 feet to get to the pasture waterer.

AiryFairy

Aug. 5, 2009, 10:27 PM

Pirate seems to do that sometimes too when playing - the line of fur on his back fluffs up even though he's quite clearly behaving in a 'play' mode. Haven't figured out why/what's going on, but it always seems to just be play.

The hackles need to be watched, it can turn IN A SECOND to a fight, all it takes is a look, (especially with the dog Candy) and while playing, the hackles should never be up. IME that has always been a good indicator of an unrelaxed dog who might challenge and snap.

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 5, 2009, 10:44 PM

The hackles need to be watched, it can turn IN A SECOND to a fight, all it takes is a look, (especially with the dog Candy) and while playing, the hackles should never be up. IME that has always been a good indicator of an unrelaxed dog who might challenge and snap.

That was my gut reaction to it, and I always redirect her attention to me and tell her to put her fur down.

Luckily she has not tried to "play" with Candy, they seem to have come to a truce of sorts. I have to tell you that my pack of dogs have some intersting interactions. For example, when the UPS guy shows up (a daily occurance here), all the dogs run out the dog door to bark at him. Well, Candy is barking at the UPS man, the Aussies are barking and nipping and Candy. Then Candy whirls around and snarls at them, and then right back to barking at the UPS man. . .repeat until the UPS man leaves.

So far Angel has not joined into this fracas, and it never ceases to amaze me that Candy has not given the Aussies a good chomp.

AiryFairy

Aug. 5, 2009, 11:48 PM

That was my gut reaction to it, and I always redirect her attention to me and tell her to put her fur down.

Luckily she has not tried to "play" with Candy, they seem to have come to a truce of sorts. I have to tell you that my pack of dogs have some intersting interactions. For example, when the UPS guy shows up (a daily occurance here), all the dogs run out the dog door to bark at him. Well, Candy is barking at the UPS man, the Aussies are barking and nipping and Candy. Then Candy whirls around and snarls at them, and then right back to barking at the UPS man. . .repeat until the UPS man leaves.

So far Angel has not joined into this fracas, and it never ceases to amaze me that Candy has not given the Aussies a good chomp.

Can I gently suggest that it might be a good idea for a 'pack leader' to get a grip on all that barking and snarling? I mean seriously take control of it, by correcting, removing them, doing whatever is necessary to break that behavior, because having been there myself, I think you're in a really fragile balance there, and Candy seems to be controlling all of it, the one you least want 'in the lead'. Don't be fooled by 'the truce', it's only a truce until the next challenge. She's a dominant dog, who will not back down, she may be just biding her time but she WILL go after Angel again, especially since Angel seems to have no fear of her. It's not if, it's when, they'll stalk around each other but sooner or later someone's going to make move. I think now is a great time to get control over the lot of them and teach them in no uncertain terms that you are the one controlling behavior. Angel's added a different dynamic to the pack, and not a submissive one, Candy will not tolerate it unless she is put in her place and removed from her 'leader' position.

Angel and the mah jong ladies - would you ever have thought? Delightful...

MrWinston

Aug. 6, 2009, 05:47 AM

We don't use flexis for training anything other than introduction to the leash. For us this is with a new puppy. As I said, they are very useful for pottying at trials. Different tools for different purposes.

Bluey

Aug. 6, 2009, 07:28 AM

To teach a dog to go thru a dog door, we fix the flap out of the way for as long as it takes, some a few minutes, some a day or two.

Has never failed us and we have trained many, many dogs.

No need to shove a dog thru the dog door.

You can at times play catch me with a treat, door flap open so they catch on going thru, or leave them inside or outside and you on the other side and practically all dogs will figure it in no time.
We had a feral aussie that, if you got close, would melt in a heap on the floor and close her eyes, so you could not be picking her up without stress and she was using that doggy door in a few minutes, on her own, with a silly expression.

Good luck, seems that you are practically there now with your dog, good job.:)

CB/TB

Aug. 6, 2009, 08:41 AM

That's what we did with the kitty door to the basement. We fastened it up for a while so she got the general drift of how things worked, then just dropped the flap. It took her a while to figure that out,, but not that long. Her food and litter pan are in teh basement, so if she wanted to eat and poop she HAD to figure it out. Ours has a clearish flap, so she could see the other side, which helped. Now ahe flies through it. We had to make a few adjustments after finding Lola the Lovely GSP at the top of the stairs with the door closed. She fit her 60lb body through teh cat door. ( Picture the bloodhound in the kitty litter commercial). We pulled the locking door half way down, but found she could push it up, so we had to screw it in place so kitty would fit, but Lola can onlyt get her head through it. Angel seems like a quick study, so she'll figuer it out.

My2cents

Aug. 6, 2009, 09:45 AM

Ah the doggy door. When our big dog was alive and had 'friends' over that didn't understand the doggy door concept, he would go through the door and pause, and wait for his friend to follow. If it didn't work the first time, he would keep doing it. I know because I watched him 'train' his friend ( a greyhound/shep x) that had NO clue why a door would magically swallow a dog and then spit him out again. It still gives me a smile to picture him, 1/2 in 1/2 out with a big doggy smile (when the front end was coming out the door). I'm sooo happy about Angel's progress. You will be paid in tons of doggy kisses of good karma for your rescue of this sweet girl.

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 6, 2009, 11:53 AM

Can I gently suggest that it might be a good idea for a 'pack leader' to get a grip on all that barking and snarling? I mean seriously take control of it, by correcting, removing them, doing whatever is necessary to break that behavior

Well, I do control it in the house. In the front yard, no, I have a few reasons why not. Number 1 is that a pack of barking snarling dogs, and the reputation of having such a pack is the best crime deterent I can think of. Second reason is that as dominant as Candy can be, she has not once bitten any of the house dogs, residents or guests. This includes my neice's pesty yorkie-poo. It is initially frightening to see Candy with the 5 pound yorkie-poo pinned to the floor, and she lets him up, and he comes right back for more, it is all playing. I am amazed that a dog that big and powerful can still be gentle. She is much better with the other dogs than she is with people (she has nipped a few people in the past).

Another example - this morning the two Aussies were playing in the house, and they do get rather vocal with all their wrestling. So Candy comes in, gets excited, and starts barking at them. I step in and announce in my loud alpha voice "TIME OUT!" and everyone stops. I'm a bit like a referree. So far Angel and Murphy just watch. I think Angel models a lot of her behavior on Murphy (who is a saint) since Murphy was her first friend.

I have a new "alarm clock", Angel got up on the bed this morning to say hello. Which got me up rather quickly, since she still needs to learn not to swat me with her paws when she is excited. I used it as a teaching time, as she would lay down, I would say "lay down" and then "good girl", and gave her a good rub down. It is a bit like having a full grown puppy occasionally.

As to keeping the dog door flap open? NOT a good idea in Florida! It would let all the bugs in, and the A/C out. I do have it on my list of things to do to teach her how to use it this weekend. I occasionally catch Cubby standing half in and out of the door, and I have to tell her "In or Out!" because again, bugs and heat are an issue.

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 6, 2009, 12:16 PM

You're the best judge of what's playing and what's not.

Exactly. And to let you know that peace reigns right now, I have all 5 dogs in my 10x11 office with me, so that our housekeeping crew can do the house cleaning without the dogs being underfoot. All are laying quietly, and Angel has the couch! I get to clean my own office since this becomes the bi-weekly dog kennel.

CB/TB

Aug. 6, 2009, 12:54 PM

Agree with not keeping the flap on the doggie door open for any length of time since yours opens to the outside. But , if it could be a training session for a few minutes, that might be all it takes. On the other hand , she will eventually "get it". She's obviously a fast study- as witnessed by the lounging on the couch! When Lola and Bella play it sounds like a pack of wolves ready to attack. Lola is pretty crippled up, but she body checks and knocks Bella right over- then she races from one end of the house to the other. She has a ball she considers "hers" and drops it and pounces on it or carries it around. She doesn't do "fetch" for some reason, but seems to amuse herself .

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 6, 2009, 01:01 PM

I agree, she has me trained, so far, I hold the flap open and call her, and she just stares at me, although this morning she almost stuck her head in. She knows that I will give up and let her in - because I am always in a damned rush! So, this weekend it shall be!

And I can relate to the "pack of wolves", that is how the Aussies sound when they are playing, and Cubby even looks a bit "wolfish"

Oh, quick question. is female "humping" a sign of dominance? This morning, Cubby was trying to hump Angel, for which she got a firm "knock it off" from me, Angel was not sure how to react to that one. Muphy has also been notorious for picking some dogs to hump. Not sure why female dogs do that anyway :confused:

suze

Aug. 6, 2009, 01:29 PM

plays HARD. Lots of noise, barking, snarling, growling, ect.

Ours love playing Bitey Face Smack Down. When the noise gets too much I make them quit also. If Rosie bugs Tug too much & doesn't want to play he'll grab her snout & give a little squeeze. When Rosie was little she used to stick her whole head in his mouth & he never offered to bite her. This was taken when she was about 12 weeks old.
http://horsezbyhawk.com/personal/photos.html
They always sound as if they're killing each other.

Angel jumping on the bed is priceless - she is gaining self-confidence in leaps & bounds now. We used to have a Rottie than occasionally would hump a boarder's dog but never any other. The dog was a bully to other dogs and Naira more than once had broken up fights the bully would start with other dogs & I think she definitely did the humping to that dog to remind him he wasn't alpha.

danceronice

Aug. 6, 2009, 01:49 PM

Lol, you go away for a few days and have to play board catch-up and THIS happens! Congrats on your new house dog.

Personally I tend not to worry much about fussing among dogs. Molly is an 'only dog' and when she meets others she's fine, UNLESS they try to get behind her. Then she gives them an "I-mean-business" snarl and they back off. For some reason she's always been touchy about her hind end (but she came from the shelter and was initially terrified of men, too, to the point she'd drop and cower if my dad even looked at her, so we have no idea what went on when she was younger to make her so touchy. She is of course Dad's dog now. Go figure.) As for extendable leads, we use that to walk her all the time--she can roam but we can reel her in if we have to. For car trips she gets an old lead rope as a short leash. ALWAYS on a harness--she doesn't even use a collar any more as she'd just get her claw snagged or she'd slip it. Even her tags are on the harness now.

Reds-n-Greys

Aug. 6, 2009, 01:58 PM

Congratulations MM! This is the most wonderful thread - EVER!!
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 6, 2009, 03:45 PM

Ours love playing Bitey Face Smack Down. When the noise gets too much I make them quit also. If Rosie bugs Tug too much & doesn't want to play he'll grab her snout & give a little squeeze. When Rosie was little she used to stick her whole head in his mouth & he never offered to bite her. This was taken when she was about 12 weeks old.
http://horsezbyhawk.com/personal/photos.html
They always sound as if they're killing each other.

Pretty funny, that is how my dogs look too! And the Aussies have been sticking their heads in Candy's mouth for 2 years, and it does look horrible, but not a scratch on any dog. Angel has not gotten into any of the wrestling matches yet.

What is funnier is how Cubby "herds" Jenna all the time, and grabs her by the tail or back leg. She definetly got the herding genes from her mother.

Home Again Farm

Aug. 6, 2009, 04:02 PM

MM, I think you are the dog trainer extraordinaire! No need to tell you how to handle the situation. Angel's progress is astounding and heart warming!

JanM

Aug. 6, 2009, 08:08 PM

MM-yes, humping is a dominance thing. I'm sure that during the first few months of my two female dogs working out the pecking order that the neighbors were sick of hearing me shriek 'stop humping the puppy' to my older dog--who became the submissive one eventually to a Min Pin that was much smaller, dogs are very strange. And when I got the male Min. Schnauzer he and my female (both neutered) did this to each other--until she basically told him to take a hike, and he stopped. I also made it plain to him that the older female was superior to him (she slept on the bed, he had a bed on the floor, etc) so he stopped trying to lead and dominate, and after she died he moved up to assume her place (he's an only dog now).

A friend of mine had show dogs, and when they earned a championship he neutered/spayed them and started doing obedience and agility competitions instead. When his Bernese Mountain Dog was a puppy (a really huge puppy) he took him to his first show to help socialize him and to get show experience. They were in the ring and my friend was listening to the judge, when people started giggling, and he felt something funny. Yes, his dog was humping his leg-I don't think the judge gave any points to that performance.

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 6, 2009, 09:23 PM

I had one of those days where I wished I had the video camera handy. This evening after the giant thunderstorms were done scareing the dogs half to death, they went out to do their business and play. Angel is getting into the running game with the Aussies, and she can keep up with them no problem, and at one point while they were running, she tried to jump over Jenna, and poor Jenna ended up face first in the dirt. No injuries, but it was sort of humorous.

The heartwarming story of the day was a few hours later, I let them out front, and of course they took off, I went back in the house (I am starting to trust her). A few minutes later the Aussies are back in the house. So, I went to see if Angel was on the front steps, and she wasn't, so I started looking around, and she was laying in the shade - blending in with the scenery - on the far side of the yard. I called her, and she jumped up and ran to me, just like she used to do in the field. I guess all those months of "training" while she was a wild thing are paying off now.

jetsmom

Aug. 6, 2009, 11:10 PM

Awww...How wonderful!!!! I love your updates! They make me smile.

witherbee

Aug. 7, 2009, 09:00 AM

MM, you are doing so great with Angel and your pack. I love checking the updates. So glad to hear she is fitting in and getting along so well.

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 7, 2009, 11:14 AM

My "alarm clock" woke me up this morning, not by jumping on the bed (the Aussies had already claimed that territory), but by attempting to chew on my husbands sneaker. So instead of saying "good morning Angel" I had to say "No Angel". She did drop the shoe, and come to me, but in a highly excited state. It took me a few minutes to get her to calm down, she does tend to swipe with her paws, and for a small dog, she is pretty strong.

I did discover that when I am trying to get Angel to give me some space, that Cubby steps up to the plate, and puts herself between Angel and me, sort of "herding" Angel in a way.

Angel would not eat for my MIL, so that was one reason she was excited, all the other dogs had eaten breakfast, and she was hungry.

After breakfast, I chased them all outside, and watched Angel playing with the Aussies. It was cute, Cubby seems to be the calm one in these games, Jenna runs, Angel chases her, and then Jenna runs back to Cubby, and gets behind Cubby. Angel does not chase Cubby. I let them play for a while, then called them all, and Angel came running right with the other two dogs, so that is progress.

I do need to teach her how to use that dog door. I let them all out a little while ago, and then got sidetracked. Of course the Aussies came in on their own, and as I was walking past the door about 15 minutes later, there was Angel laying on the front steps, right in front of the dog door. And now she is napping on my couch.

I'm still amazed daily at her transformation, from a dog that trusted no one, to this!

FalseImpression

Aug. 7, 2009, 12:39 PM

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 7, 2009, 02:23 PM

I love it.

Now that she has friends at home, she may not be interested in the GSD puppy :( Besides, puppy will have grown by the time she goes back and is able to play with him. How are the stitches holding up with all that running?

It is so unbelievable though... every stray should be so lucky!

Well, the other night while I was chatting with the neighbors and being mauled by the puppy, when I got back to the house, Angel sniffed me all over, and was wagging her whole rear end, so I think she remembers the pup, but you might be right, if she becomes a fully integrated member of my pack. . .but then again, she is so playful sometimes that she might be happy to play with any dog, remains to be seen I guess.

As to the incision, the vet used surgical glue instead of stitches, because we were not sure how she was going to be when we got her home, and the vet thought that if we couldn't catch her again to bring her in to get the stitches out. . . but to answer your question, it is healing beautifully.

She does not bark in the yard with the rest of the dogs yet. She has started to talk to me in the house like she used to do at the barn.

suze

Aug. 7, 2009, 02:49 PM

:lol:

I did discover that when I am trying to get Angel to give me some space

Would you have ever thought you'd be pushing her away so soon after trying to entice her to come closer? Truly a member of the pack now!

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 7, 2009, 03:13 PM

:lol:
Would you have ever thought you'd be pushing her away so soon after trying to entice her to come closer? Truly a member of the pack now!

Nope, not in a million years would I have imagined that 10 days ago! It has been one week today since we brought her home. What is funny is that I am still in the habit of looking for her out near the barn, wonder how long until I stop doing that?

MHM

Aug. 7, 2009, 09:07 PM

Well, since you've been seeing her at the barn for a year, it might take more than a week to break that habit. :lol:

Have you thought of having the neighbor's pup over for a play date in your yard? Maybe you could keep your other dogs in the house so he and Angel could have a romp, once they've both recovered from their respective surgical procedures.

They could compare notes on their vet visits. :lol:

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 7, 2009, 10:23 PM

It will probably be easier to do it at the neighbors house, especially when Angel is more domesticated, she is getting so much better at coming when called.

I'll keep you all posted on how the dog door training goes this weekend.

She really has become one of the family now, it make me so happy knowing that she does not have to live alone, and has a safe place to be.

MHM

Aug. 7, 2009, 11:34 PM

It makes me so happy knowing that she does not have to live alone, and has a safe place to be.

You and the rest of us! :):):)

3horsemom

Aug. 8, 2009, 09:22 AM

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 9, 2009, 12:27 AM

I'm beginning to think that there might be some Beagle in Angels lineage. Mostly due to her size, and the fact that she ate the couch today, something my beagles in the past were notorious for. I was out mowing the pasture, for only an hour, came in to a huge hole in the sofa cushion, with stuffing coming out! I couldn't yell at her, because I didn't catch her in the act, and I am dumbfounded that no one in the house could hear it?!?!? I guess I am the only one that is attuned to listening for anything out of the ordinary in the house, must be a mom thing. Guess it is a good thing that we have not replaced the furniture yet. The worst part is there are new dog toys all over the living room floor, and she had to shred the sofa cushion?

No luck with the dog door training today, I need two things - duct tape to hold the flap open, and to lock up the other darned dogs. At one point, I actually got on all 4 and stuck my head out the door, and I swear that Angel smirked at me on the other side. I tried tempting her with treats, but I was being mauled by the other dogs, so they were not helping. You would think that after watching the other dogs go in and out all day long that she would get the hang of it.

I also caused her some unitentional agnst today. She has been shaking her head and scratching her neck alot, I thought that perhaps the dog collar was too big, so I found a narrower one that the Aussies used when they were younger. Well, getting the old collar off and new one on was a bit of a wrestling match, and she slunk around avoiding me for 30 minutes afterwards. She panics if she feels any tension on the collar at all. She snapped out of it after taking a nap. So, after that, now every time I pet her, I make little tugs on the collar, so that I can desensitize her to that.

I am also trying to let her know that she will not die if I pick her up. If I so much as just put my hands in her armpits, she sinks to the floor cowering. So I have been spending some extra time petting those parts of her body that seem to trigger panic in her, and to praise her when she is good.

A few cute things happened today. She and Candy were actually playing today - both in and out of the house. And tonight after dark, I let the dogs out, and when the pack came back I went to the door to see if she was there, and she was not. So I called the Aussies to come outside, I called Angel, she did not come, so I told the Aussies to go get her, and amazingly they did! It was probably a fluke. . .but when they got to her I called them, and they didn't come, so I said "Cubby, Jenna, bring Angel in the house", and they did something to rouse her out of the dirt and bring her back.

AiryFairy

Aug. 9, 2009, 01:50 AM

MrWinston

Aug. 9, 2009, 06:15 AM

Angel's inner puppy is coming out. I guess you will have to treat her accordingly?

CB/TB

Aug. 9, 2009, 08:17 AM

Bitter Apple, YUCK, or some kind of no chew product that won't stain might help her get the message. Bella gnawed at a throw pillow and we came home to indoor snow! You decide against having a play date with the pup next door, which is smart, I think. Better to not get either of them used to wandering back and forth. Dogs belong at home. Besides, things might look TOO good at your house and you may never get rid of him!

pony89

Aug. 9, 2009, 09:16 AM

The couch eating could just be the shepherd. My GSD ate 3 or 4 couches when he was growing up. We would just pick up a new one from the side of the road, and my husband would cut up the old one with his sawz-all and put it out with the trash over the next couple of weeks :lol:

For some reason, he stopped when we got a slipcover to put over the couch. I'm not sure if that can be attributed to the slip cover, or if he just finally grew out of it

Buffyblue

Aug. 9, 2009, 10:55 AM

Angel's inner puppy is coming out. I guess you will have to treat her accordingly?

Sounds about right to me! :lol: How old is she anyway? I have two Aussies and they are puppies until 2 years old! (My little one is 1 1/2 and still cannot be trusted unsupervised in the house! ) It's so amazing to me that you initially had one huge set of issues with this dog, and now you have a totally different set! Great job so far - keep the faith! Thanks for the updates.

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 9, 2009, 12:34 PM

Well, maybe it is just dogs in general, that have a thing for "gutting" anything with stuffing in it. In thinking back, my brittanies (Murphy in particular) would do that to the dog beds that I bought for them, in that house, they were confined to the basement and fended in backyard (va dog door) when we were not home. I would come home to what looked like a sheep shearing session, and my DH would be all mad, and he told me "No More Dog Beds!" I told him I felt bad that they had to lay on the concrete, so he built a big platform up off the floor, with extra padding and carpet, and they never destroyed that. And we had a shepard puppy that ate a chair and a hand braided rug (thought my mom was really going to go nuts on that one). The couches already have a few other "repair" spots from the Aussies when they were little. I think perhaps a couch throw cover might be in order, at least until I can afford to get new ones, once all the dogs are trained to not eat the furniture.

Angel is getting into the pack routine more and more every day. This morning she joined the Aussies in a session of "romp-in-your-room", which equates to 3 rambunctious dogs on my bed wrestling on top of me. Angel jumped right up there with them, and proceeded to lick my face in between rounds with the Aussies. Yes, I am a nut, letting them romp like that. The funniest was Jenna, she likes to burrow in the covers, so she had her head wrapped up in the quilt, and I could hear a crunching noise, I unwrapped her, and she was happily chewing on a nylabone in her little cocoon. I think she thought she was safe from the other dogs in there.

Still no luck on the dog door, but she is getting less freaked out if I gently lift her for a second, and when I put a bit of pressure on her collar.

Time to go do a head count, and make sure that they are all just napping, which they should be, they played together for several hours this morning, both inside and outdoors.

suze

Aug. 9, 2009, 01:06 PM

At one point, I actually got on all 4 and stuck my head out the door, and I swear that Angel smirked at me on the other side.

That conjures up a pretty funny cartoon for your Taming Angel book!:lol:

Beethoven

Aug. 9, 2009, 01:08 PM

Sounds like she is doing great.

For the dog door, its been years since I taught my greyhouds to use it but I think I remember climbing through and getting them to follow me a couple times.:lol: I was a kid, bet my parents had a good time laughing at me, but it worked. :lol:

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 9, 2009, 01:47 PM

OY! for a smart dog, sometimes Angel is not smart. I just stood there holding open the flap, and had the other dogs go in and out, in and out, to try to show her how to do it, and she just stands there looking at me as if to say "I don't think so". I could fit through the door (we have the largest one), but at my age, it would not be pretty!

Or maybe she is too smart!

JanM

Aug. 9, 2009, 03:12 PM

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 9, 2009, 03:19 PM

MM-Angel's very smart. She found a way to get the human to entertain her. I wonder if she has a bet with the other dogs that she can make you crawl through? If you do crawl through it make sure you don't get stuck. Maybe you could get your daughter to crawl through instead?

My daughter is now the same size as I am, so she would have the same issues as I do. LOL - I did have to have her climb in the dog door twice at our old house, I had managed to lock the keys in the house. Actually, I think I had to do it myself a few times too.

You might be right on the bet thing!

My2cents

Aug. 9, 2009, 03:36 PM

I used to have a problem getting my big dog to jump up into the back of my SUV. I would do the old lift the front end and the huff and puff and lift up the rear end. Not so easy with a hundred pounder. I thought, oh well, that's just how's it going to be. One day a friend came by to go for a dog walk with me and as I was getting ready to do the old heave ho, she just looked at me with disgust and said 'Roscoe, get in' and lo and behold, he jumped in the car. Maybe if you have someone else try the doggy door, she'll look at it with a different attitude.
Somehow she's equating you with not doing it. Just a thought.

MHM

Aug. 9, 2009, 03:43 PM

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 9, 2009, 05:40 PM

Didn't we have a pool earlier in the thread about when you would be able to touch Angel? Seems like so long ago now!

Maybe we need to start a new pool about when Angel will go through the dog door- or when MM will! :lol:

That made me laugh!

Made a new discovery today. Loud popping noises also cause her to panic. I had the largest hornet on the planet in my office this afternoon (Cubby "pointed" it out to me - good dog). First I smacked it a good one with a magazine, and then to make double sure it was dead, I sprayed it with bug spray so that I could safely pick up it's remains. Well, when I snapped the lid back on the can of spray, Angel flew out of my office, and would slink away from me for a few minutes. Poor little girl.

But she seems to get over it quickly.

slc2

Aug. 9, 2009, 06:27 PM

Amazing what patience can do.

birdsong

Aug. 9, 2009, 06:28 PM

http://picasaweb.google.com/birdsong10/Sheba2009#5368091104208200978

Well since you asked. This is my rescue Sheba, a 7 yo GSD who was found tied underneath a mobile home. She had been owned by a very elderly couple. Apparently the lady died , the man went into a nursing home where he died quickly also and Sheba was abandoned. The smartest dog I have ever owned and I have had a few. She is devoted to me to the point of it sometimes being annoying!!
She too has flashbacks of bad times. When I first got her (on the 4th day) I was bathing her and when I touched her side she screamed and bit me in the face...almost taking off my bottom lip! I decided to keep her though knowing she would be destroyed if I returned her. She had been through heartworm treatment and 9 mo in a cage at animal services.
I'm sure she has flashbacks of being kicked as there is no evidence of any physical problems.
I have to muzzle her and cross tie her with her feet barely on the floor to even think of brushing or bathing her.....she goes insane with fear aggression. Otherwise she is not at all a fearsome dog and other than her looks, is worthless for a guard dog!!

We get along fine as long as I respect her issues!!

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 9, 2009, 07:53 PM

Aww, bless you for giving Sheba a home, and learning to deal with her phobias. Must have been a very scary thing being bitten like that.

Angel is getting a bit better with light pressure on her collar and lifting her front end about 1/2 inch off the floor. I do need to work on this since the vet would like her back in for boosters on some of her shots in 2 weeks.

I do sometimes forget that she has only been a house dog for 9 days now.

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 10, 2009, 11:41 AM

I had a random thought last night, probably triggered by the evening news talking about a possible tropical storm brewing in the Atlantic. I was thinking how glad I am that Angel lives with us now, because I cannot image how she would have fared out there if we did have a hurricane.

She is really loving romping with the other dogs now, but what is funny is that they get to running, then the Aussies launch themselves out the dog door, and Angel screeches to a halt, and now stands at the door and whines to go out.

The sending the Aussies out to fetch her from the front yard might not have been a fluke after all, I did it again yesterday, with the same result.

SevenDogs

Aug. 10, 2009, 11:59 AM

So, so nice to have something going so right in the world right now.... except of course, unless you are the couch or the chewed up quilt! :) :lol: :)

onetrickpony

Aug. 10, 2009, 01:50 PM

She is really loving romping with the other dogs now, but what is funny is that they get to running, then the Aussies launch themselves out the dog door, and Angel screeches to a halt, and now stands at the door and whines to go out.

I wouldn't enable her reticence by letting her out, not unless you know that she needs to do her "business." Let the lure of the other dogs being outside help her get over her doggy door hump. Actually, what I would do instead when she stands there whining is pop open the doggy door and indicate that she should go through it. Hold it open for a few seconds, and if she doesn't show any interest, then be done with it. Vacate the area and ignore her. (Again, only if you know that she doesn't have to go to the bathroom.)

She's a smart dog. She knows what she needs to do to run with the pack. The stronger their bonds grow, the harder it will be for her to resist.

RainyDayRide

Aug. 10, 2009, 05:58 PM

birdsong

Aug. 10, 2009, 07:04 PM

MHM

Aug. 10, 2009, 10:03 PM

lcw579

Aug. 10, 2009, 10:10 PM

Yes, please, birdsong, there must be more to the story than that!

Beethoven

Aug. 10, 2009, 11:25 PM

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 11, 2009, 10:11 AM

Ha Ha..I propped open my doggie door when it was new til they got the hang of it...til a skunk came inside and crawled under my sons covers where they slept TOGETHER til 2:00 one morning!! EEKKKKKK it was hilarious when it was over.... :lol:

OMG - how did you manage to get it out of the house without getting sprayed? Add my inquiring mind to the list here.

Angel really is getting the hang of the routine here, and loves playing with the Aussies and even Candy now. Sometimes it looks like a cross between professional wrestling and doggie pinball as they are bouncing off the furniture in the living room.

This morning at an ungodly early hour (thanks to the fact that my MIL had to leave early - and as soon as she gets up, so do all the dogs), Angel "attacked" me in bed, she was climbing all over me, licking, etc. I literally had to wrestle with her to get her to lay down quietly, and even then, it didn't last long.

Who would have known that in 2 short weeks she would go from a cowering frightened thing to this?

She does still have moments during the day where she sort of slinks around, not sure yet what triggers it, well, sometimes it is if I am working on the collar pressure thing, she still does not like that at all. And of course she still will not use the dog door!

Holly Jeanne

Aug. 11, 2009, 12:48 PM

The sending the Aussies out to fetch her from the front yard might not have been a fluke after all, I did it again yesterday, with the same result.

Awwww! Our first Aussie was good for this. We had an old collie who would go outside and curl up to sleep somewhere. When it was time for bed, we'd send the young Aussie out with instructions to "find Taffy." A few minutes later, Taffy would return with Aussie (Cassie) herding from behind. Taffy had to be pts before too long but lived a long happy life and gave Cassie a "job" to do as a youngster.

danceronice

Aug. 11, 2009, 03:40 PM

birdsong, inquiring minds really do want to know...our 'barn skunks' are laid-back (they'll trap themselves in the livetrap for marshmallows then wait patiently to be let out in the morning) but I don't think they're THAT laid-back!

MHM

Aug. 11, 2009, 04:51 PM

our 'barn skunks' are laid-back (they'll trap themselves in the livetrap for marshmallows then wait patiently to be let out in the morning) but I don't think they're THAT laid-back!

Wow, you guys are FAR braver than I am about skunks! :eek:

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 11, 2009, 04:56 PM

I wouldn't enable her reticence by letting her out, not unless you know that she needs to do her "business." Let the lure of the other dogs being outside help her get over her doggy door hump. Actually, what I would do instead when she stands there whining is pop open the doggy door and indicate that she should go through it. Hold it open for a few seconds, and if she doesn't show any interest, then be done with it. Vacate the area and ignore her. (Again, only if you know that she doesn't have to go to the bathroom.)

She's a smart dog. She knows what she needs to do to run with the pack. The stronger their bonds grow, the harder it will be for her to resist.

Sounds good. I do always open the dog door first and call her to try to get her to come through, but you are right, then I give up and let her in/out. There are times when I am too busy or not in the house to let her out with the pack, so until she figures it out, those times there is no one to let her out, she will just be stuck on the wrong side of the door.

I have to admit that what amazes me the most is that she has not had one accident in the house. Especially with all the other "marks" on the carpet from the other dogs!

My daughter and I made an interesting observation last night. She doesn't have much of a "dumb bump" on her head (you know, that bony protusion on the dog's head that makes it look pointy between their ears). I know that it is an old wives tale as to whether or not that is a sign of intelligence in dog, and I don't put any stock in it!

onetrickpony

Aug. 11, 2009, 05:26 PM

She doesn't have much of a "dumb bump" on her head (you know, that bony protusion on the dog's head that makes it look pointy between their ears). I know that it is an old wives tale as to whether or not that is a sign of intelligence in dog, and I don't put any stock in it!

You know it as a "dumb bump"??? I've always heard it called a "smart bump"! No wonder it's not a good indicator of intelligence! :lol::lol::lol::lol:

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 11, 2009, 06:56 PM

You know it as a "dumb bump"??? I've always heard it called a "smart bump"! No wonder it's not a good indicator of intelligence! :lol::lol::lol::lol:

Well, I used to just call it "your pointy little head", until someone I was talking with that had bird dogs called it that. I'm sure it is not a sign of either dumbness or smartness.

danceronice

Aug. 11, 2009, 08:11 PM

Wow, you guys are FAR braver than I am about skunks! :eek:

The only time anyone has been sprayed so far was when a cat jumped on top the trap while Mom was getting ready to let the skunk out, and the skunk panicked and did what skunks do. We've even had a couple whom Dad has had to tip out of trap because they don't see a reason to leave (dry, sheltered, comfortable, breakfast to order...)

I've always heard that wives' tale as being the bump is a sign the dog is smart, more room for the brain or something. Not that either one is likely right!

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 11, 2009, 09:00 PM

I had a thought tonight, maybe Angel is not using the dog door because of the animal control traps. From what my neighbors told me (the traps were on their property), that when there were two traps out there, and they caught Angel's friend, the animal control guys think that Angel got into the other trap, but the door malfunctioned and she escaped - and would never go back in the trap.

So, as it has been all these months, it will be on her time, when she decides to take that step. I will keep offering it to her, but she can figure it out.

SevenDogs

Aug. 11, 2009, 11:38 PM

Anne FS

Aug. 12, 2009, 12:26 AM

We got a bunch of good pictures today,

Just saw the photos today. I LOVE the one of her on the couch on her first day in your home. On the couch after 14 months of living as a fearful stray! Oh, the COMFORT she must've felt!

I'm not particulary photogenic,

Well I think you're beautiful.

JanM

Aug. 12, 2009, 07:41 AM

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 12, 2009, 03:20 PM

MM-I really think you're right about the animal trap=doggie door thing.

So, I think you need to rub her favorite treat all over you and lead her through the door by crawling through ahead of her-but make sure we get to see the video.

I think she'll get so excited playing with the other dogs and will get between two groups and get kind of pushed through by them. Once she does it and finds out it's OK then I think she'll be fine with it. It's so great to see her adapt to her forever home.

OMG - with these dogs, I would not survive the onslaught when they all mauled me for smelling like chicken! It sure would make for a prize winning video I think!

My MIL told me how they all went charging for the door this morning, and once again Angel screeched to a halt right in front of the flap. So, this afternoon, as I saw them charging for the door across the front lawn, I quickly lifted the flap, and 4 dogs came flying through it, but not Angel, she stopped. So I stood there with one arm holding up the flap, the other petting and fawning over the rest of the dogs (usually this entices Angel to get into the middle of the petting-fest), and she still just stood there with her head almost into the door. Big sigh. I finally had to give it up when my arm got tired, and I let her in. I know, I should have left her out, but it was pretty darned hot out there today, and I felt bad about that.

I did want to share this. Last night, Angel decided to sleep in bed with me and my DH - and my other two dogs slept in the bathroom (their choice, I think they like the cool tile floor there). It was so cute to see her just hop up on the bed like she owns the place. She slept well, until the alarm clock went off, and then she said "let the wild rumpus begin" and tried to dig a hole into the back of my head!

Before bed last night, all the dogs went out, and my DH was kind enough to go and whistle for Angel to come in, and I was not sure if she would or not, but she did.

Anne FS - thanks! Right now she is sleeping on the couch, Jenna is under my desk, and the other dogs are scattered about the house. I do believe that she really is enjoying being a house dog.

suze

Aug. 12, 2009, 03:28 PM

Last night, Angel decided to sleep in bed with me and my DH - and my other two dogs slept in the bathroom (their choice, I think they like the cool tile floor there). It was so cute to see her just hop up on the bed like she owns the place.

What an amazing amount of self confidence she's gained in such a short time! Our Rosie always digs us out, too - my hubby more than me, thank goodness. It's always him she digs out when she needs to go out in the middle of the night.:D

VWBug

Aug. 13, 2009, 09:36 AM

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 13, 2009, 10:14 AM

What if someone had said to you a month ago that Angel would be sleeping in your bed by now? Her progress is staggering!

If I 'go to ground' under the covers then our two terriers will dig us out. I absolutely love that game!

If someone had even suggested that as a possibility, I would have laughed. I marvel every single day at the transformation of this dog.

I've officially become a redneck - last night I had to repair the ottoman with a staple gun and duct tape, the dogs (I'm not going to blame just Angel this time) managed to pull 1/4 of the skirt off the thing, and rip a little bit of it. So the rip got repaired with duct tape on the back, and stapled the skirt back onto the ottoman. Like I said before, good thing I still have this "well worn" furniture, I would be unhappy if it had been new furniture!

I would enjoy the digging game more if my dogs were slightly smaller and not as strong, gets to be tough on the covers and my body.

Angel did have a little bit of regression late last night. I let the dogs out for their final potty break before bed, and they did come when called, but when Angel got to the front steps she would not come in - and I needed her to hurry before all the bugs flew into the house, so I hooked a finger into her collar, and she dropped to the ground, I ended up having to pick her up and carry her in. My only thought is that she was getting some negative energy from me, with my impatience that she was not coming in, and perhaps she was afraid that it would end in pain for her. Poor little girl, sometimes I wish I knew what happened to her in the past, and other times, I am glad I don't.

MrWinston

Aug. 13, 2009, 10:22 AM

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 13, 2009, 10:31 AM

Next time be prepared with a valuable treat and lure her through the door and reward. If she has another set back be sure to reward her right away. She'll get over it in time. She's doing really well MM. Better than anyone would ever believe.

Good suggestion, I was not prepared for her to "stall out" at the front door. The dogs all know that if I call them and they come in that the next stop is the biscuit box, usually they race past me to beat me to the box. They also know that no biscuits are doled out until everyone is in, so this adds incentive for them to all "herd" each other when I call. She has been so good, and was fine this morning coming in and out.

onetrickpony

Aug. 13, 2009, 05:16 PM

My only thought is that she was getting some negative energy from me, with my impatience that she was not coming in, and perhaps she was afraid that it would end in pain for her.

One of my two dogs is the EXACT same way. If we go for a potty walk and I become impatient because she's dawdling, she WILL NOT do her business. She just gets nervous, looks at me a lot, and freezes up. Even if I haven't said anything to her or done anything physical (to my knowledge) to show my impatience. She is also a rescue who I got when she was already 1 year old, and some of her other behaviors have indicated that she suffered rough handling before I got her. They can be incredibly sensitive animals. I'm sure that Angel will bounce right back, though. :yes:

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 13, 2009, 08:17 PM

Thanks, Angel is one of the few dogs in my life that I don't know their entire life history, so it is a learning experience for me and her at the same time.

Like all the dogs, she does love having her ears rubbed, and I can play with all her feet and she does not pull them away.

Nothing major to report today so far, it has been a good day.

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 14, 2009, 03:52 PM

suze

Aug. 14, 2009, 04:18 PM

Another baby step for Angel today. She went through the dog door three times so far as I held the flap up.

YAY!!! Try spraying the places that are easy to grab/chew with gin - I forget who told us that, but it seemed to work for us when the dogs were pups.

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 14, 2009, 05:24 PM

YAY!!! Try spraying the places that are easy to grab/chew with gin - I forget who told us that, but it seemed to work for us when the dogs were pups.

GIN?!?!? I never would have thought of that option. Thanks, I'll give it a try. Worse case would be that they suck it out of the furniture, and get too drunk to chew :D.

I thought about trying the Bitter Apple spray, then I recalled trying the gel some years ago with a different dog, and she got ahold of the tube and chewed it up too. So much for being an effective chewing deterent.

jetsmom

Aug. 14, 2009, 05:26 PM

Another baby step for Angel today. She went through the dog door three times so far as I held the flap up.

Any suggestions on something I can spray on the furniture to keep her from eating it? DH is getting a bit annoyed, she chewed on one corner of the other ottoman this morning. Guess I need to do some research asap. And get out the sewing kit again tonight.

I told my DH that I was considering slip covers, but unless they are made of Kevlar. . . because I would be rather annoyed if I spent a few hundred dollars on covers, just to have those get chewed up too.

You would think that with a box full of toys, and 4 other dogs to play with, that she would not have time to eat the furniture.

You could throw an old sheet over the couch, and spray the areas she chews with Raplast (Horse-anti chew spray for wraps). It will definitely keep her from chewing. It will stain though, so don't get it on your furniture. They sell Bitter apple spray for dogs, but I've never been impressed with it. They also make a spray called "Off" or "Out" that will deter dogs from going into a certain area/jumping up on furniture. It does work, and might keep her away from couch corners/areas you don't want her near to chew.

SevenDogs

Aug. 14, 2009, 05:59 PM

GIN?!?!? I never would have thought of that option. Thanks, I'll give it a try. Worse case would be that they suck it out of the furniture, and get too drunk to chew :D.

... and if neither works, you and DH can finish the bottle and not care about the couch! :lol:

Have you been able to catch her in the act at all?

JanM

Aug. 14, 2009, 08:24 PM

The problem is that she apparently thinks the cushions and furniture corners are chew toys. Have you actually caught her chewing? It wouldn't be the first time that a new pack member triggered naughty behavior. And I agree about Bitter Apple-it's totally useless. Plus, anything you can put on the furniture to discourage chewing might be something that you can get on your hands and touch your eyes or face and get very uncomfortable. I don't know what the solution is.

If you want to feel better I have a story for you. A friend had to two pitt litter mates-girls. She got a lazy boy chair (a real one-on sale, and her dream furniture) and it was delivered before she went to work. She came home that evening and the chair was chewed all over-the cushions were shredded, the entire cover was gone, and she never even sat in her brand new chair. She kept it and it was the only thing the 'girls' chewed on.

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 14, 2009, 09:20 PM

I have caught her in the act with the bed quilt and when she pulled one of the pillows off my couch in my office, but I have not caught her in the act with the living room couches, which I'm sure is part of the problem. It happened whenever I was down at the barn for any length of time. And unfortunately no one else heard her either to be able to reprimand her as she was doing the bad behavior.

DH didn't like the gin idea, but it did give us all a laugh about the house smelling like a gin mill if we did.

suze

Aug. 14, 2009, 11:33 PM

Once it's sprayed it doesn't seem to smell & it doesn't stain, either. Or maybe it's just that our house is almost always open to the elements that takes the smell out. :lol:

pony89

Aug. 15, 2009, 01:29 AM

It works best if you don't just tell them what not to do, but also tell them what to do. So when you catch her, tell her "NO!", but then cheerfully tell her "Get your bone!" Give her what you want her to chew, and praise her copiously when she chews that instead. Even when she isn't being naughty, give her what you want her to chew (and make sure there are plenty of them around), maybe even smear it with a touch of peanut butter, and praise her like she just solved the problem of world peace every time you catch her with it, or near it, or looking at it, or thinking of looking at it!!

The other thing, and I know it's hard because she's not great on a leash, but you probably have to treat her like a puppy. Constant supervision. You probably need to tie her to your waist and have her within 6 feed of you at all times, and if you can't have her with you for a little while, put her in a crate. You can't teach her what she needs to do if you can't see her every second, and if you let her do whatever when you aren't there, you are setting her up for behavioral failure. She's not really being naughty if you haven't been able to make your point that she's doing something wrong! I'd try one of those body harnesses that people were recommending. It'd probably fix that issue with fear of the leash in a hurry, too!

onetrickpony

Aug. 15, 2009, 10:31 AM

The other thing, and I know it's hard because she's not great on a leash, but you probably have to treat her like a puppy. Constant supervision. You probably need to tie her to your waist and have her within 6 feed of you at all times, and if you can't have her with you for a little while, put her in a crate. You can't teach her what she needs to do if you can't see her every second, and if you let her do whatever when you aren't there, you are setting her up for behavioral failure. She's not really being naughty if you haven't been able to make your point that she's doing something wrong! I'd try one of those body harnesses that people were recommending. It'd probably fix that issue with fear of the leash in a hurry, too!

(bolding mine)

DITTO, DITTO, DITTO!!!!!!!! In fact, I can't ditto this enough.

Furthermore, if she continues to display negative behaviors even after you have made it clear that she is not to do them (like chewing on furniture), then it is still YOUR responsibility to set her up for success. Which will probably mean crating her or confining her to an area where she cannot be destructive. Some dogs never outgrow certain destructive behaviors, or they're plagued with separation anxiety that never completely resolves. In those cases, it is up to the owner to avoid putting the dog in situations in which the dog has already proven that it cannot behave appropriately.

I have my fingers crossed that Angel's is just a delayed "puppy stage" and that she will cease chewing on inappropriate objects ASAP. But she still needs to have her behavior shaped CONSISTENTLY for that to happen.

You're doing great, MM! And I have to give Angel more credit for going through the doggy door given what you told us about her history with the traps. Baby steps? No way! That's huge! :D :lol: :winkgrin:

CB/TB

Aug. 15, 2009, 01:15 PM

Bitter Apple, YUCK , a no chew I've gotten PetsMART, even try rubbing a bar of soap on the edges of the couch. Maybe some of the repellants might work. Good job with the doggie door! She has settled pretty fast considering how long she was on her own. GOOD JOB!

AiryFairy

Aug. 15, 2009, 01:43 PM

Another baby step for Angel today. She went through the dog door three times so far as I held the flap up.

Any suggestions on something I can spray on the furniture to keep her from eating it? DH is getting a bit annoyed, she chewed on one corner of the other ottoman this morning. Guess I need to do some research asap. And get out the sewing kit again tonight.

I told my DH that I was considering slip covers, but unless they are made of Kevlar. . . because I would be rather annoyed if I spent a few hundred dollars on covers, just to have those get chewed up too.

You would think that with a box full of toys, and 4 other dogs to play with, that she would not have time to eat the furniture.

Ditto what the other posters have said. If you are leaving her alone and can't control her behavior, you need to put her someplace where she can't make a mistake, that is, in a crate. Her doing things like that without being corrected isn't teaching her anything and is setting her up for failure. It's not fair to expect her to know what you want unless you tell her, and if you can't be there to tell her, don't let her be the one to make the decision about chewing things, because she'll mostly get it wrong. If you're there to redirect when she does it, she'll learn, but if you're not, you're in for a long destructive childhood.

MHM

Aug. 15, 2009, 03:19 PM

Another baby step for Angel today. She went through the dog door three times so far as I held the flap up.

Given her extraordinary learning curve, she'll probably wear out the flap on the dog door within a month!

In the Air

Aug. 15, 2009, 09:35 PM

I have caught her in the act with the bed quilt and when she pulled one of the pillows off my couch in my office, but I have not caught her in the act with the living room couches, which I'm sure is part of the problem. It happened whenever I was down at the barn for any length of time. And unfortunately no one else heard her either to be able to reprimand her as she was doing the bad behavior.

I would guess that she is unhappy at not being able to go with you to the barn....

Can't you take her with you?

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 15, 2009, 10:44 PM

I would guess that she is unhappy at not being able to go with you to the barn....

Can't you take her with you?

I thought about that today, I was hoping to wait a few more weeks until she is better about coming consistently when called. She still has moments where she reverts to the more feral side of her brain sometimes when she is in the front yard, or even in the house, and since she still has some real fear issues with the leash and collar. . . I was just going to put off the barn in case it triggered her to go back to her old self.

Do you all remember my talking about how she would steal shoes from my neighbors and bring them home? Tonight I was putting my sneakers on, and she very quietly picked up one of them. I said "ATT - No Angel" and she dropped it. So I told her "Good Girl" when she did drop it.

I agree, that the best way to prevent her from doing more damage to the furniture is to catch her in the act. I'm a good mom, I have extra hearing and eye in the back of my head, but it is the times when I am not in the house, and there are other people in the house, but they don't notice - heck, they don't notice when the other dogs are in the trash, or pulling the towels off the racks in the bathroom, or the day the Aussies had a party with the toilet paper!

It probably is just a case of delayed puppyhood, and not so much testing the boundaries, but learning what is allowed and what is not.

I would hate to have to crate her when there are people in the house, she is also terrified of the crate (another trap related thing probably). Also not fair to crate her and let the other 4 dogs roam free.

I figure this is something that we can correct with time, just like we did with the Aussies, trust me, Angel is not the first to put a hole in the sofa cushions! And just like the Aussies, she will learn, especially if we catch her in the act, that seemed to work with the other dogs.

She is getting a bit better about the dog door, we still have to lift the flap for her, and she sometimes does not lift her legs to get over the ledge (which is only about 2 inches off the ground), but she is getting the hang of it. She is still better about going out than coming in.

AiryFairy

Aug. 15, 2009, 11:41 PM

I would hate to have to crate her when there are people in the house, she is also terrified of the crate (another trap related thing probably). Also not fair to crate her and let the other 4 dogs roam free.

You'd have to work to make the crate a good place to be, a bed, some food, good things happen in the crate, it should be her hidey-hole and not something to fear, although if she's been wary of traps then I can see her being scared of them. Still, whether other people are in the house or not isn't relevant, if they're not paying attention to what she's doing, then it's pointless to attempt training and dangerous to leave her loose. "Not fair" is more a human feeling than a 'dog' feeling, I don't think dogs have a concept of fairness. The other dogs have learned not to chew so they can run free, she's still learning so confinement isn't a punishment, it's to keep her safe from herself (and your furniture!). What if she goes for an electrical cord while no one's looking? If you can't be there to stop her and no one else is watching, then it's definitely "not fair" to let her chew things that could hurt/kill her or destroy your house. If it were me I'd focus on getting her comfortable with a crate, maybe an open wire one that doesn't feel like a trap, treats in there , food in there, she's smart, she'll get it.

SevenDogs

Aug. 15, 2009, 11:53 PM

With all due respect to those in favor of crate training, MM: I think you are right that it is probably not right for Angel. Crate training can be great, but it is not the "beat all, end all" solution for every dog.

MM: Here's my suggestion (and something that I used successfully). Since she appears to only chew "inappropriate" things like furniture (!) while you are gone, "plan a time to be gone" when you have a extra few minutes (yeah, I know) but don't really go too far and try to catch her in the act.

Now stay with me here (this might sound a little crazy). You can either just pop back in the house to see what she is doing, or I actually snuck into the backyard and watched my dog through the window. In this case, we were trying to train her to leave the Christmas Tree alone. She was sensitive to noise, so I brought a can with a bunch of pennies in it. As soon as she went anywhere near the tree, I banged the can on the window (without her seeing me and the window was closed so she hopefully couldn't smell me).

Just a thought.

We all have suggestions, but you have made the right decisions for Angel every step of the way. Trust yourself before any of us. :yes:

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 16, 2009, 12:16 AM

Thanks! She is not chewing everything, it is only the couches, and it might be when she is excited and playing with the other dogs. Also, that is where the toy box is, and she is getting better about grabbing a toy now. I have to remind myself that it has only been two weeks of house-dog life for her, after 14 months of living on her own with no rules. With that in mind, I am amazed at how well she actually is doing.

I have also started leaving a dog toy on the couch, so that if she is grabbing it in excitement, that she has a toy to grab instead of the couch.

I've been watching the weather, there are some big storms brewing out in the Atlantic, so I really feel so much better now that she is in the house with us, I won't have to worry about her if we get any big storms.

lcw579

Aug. 16, 2009, 12:22 AM

I agree with SevenDogs. I think the crate would freak her out. You have done such a great job with Angel just by following your instincts and looking to her for signs to tell you how to handle her that I have no doubts her furniture eating spree will be short lived.

The stealing shoe habit cracks me up. Our little rescue mutt does the same thing. Usually just flip flops. When we first got him we didn't know what was happening and a few made it outside through the dog door never to be seen again. Nowadays he will occasionally sneak off with one but just to his hidey hole behind the couch. Wonder why the strays like shoes? :lol:

harveyhorses

Aug. 16, 2009, 11:06 AM

I think the crate would make her regress. Just my HO.
So glad she is in with you now, I don't like the forecast!

Blacklabs

Aug. 16, 2009, 11:10 AM

MM you continue ot do a great job with Angel. I'm wondering if she has a little separation anxiety when she leave and she's pawing the furniture also.In time she will feel more comfident that you will be coming back. We have also used the penny can with excessive barking when we leave.It works great.
As far as the shoes that's a everyday occurance at my house. both my labs have a shoe in their mouths most of the time. They don't chewed them just have to carry one around with them. For some reason it's always the right foot shoe.:lol:

As always love to read about Angel and so glad she has come so far in only 2 weeks. It's really hard to believe.

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 16, 2009, 11:32 AM

Guess What? She mastered the dog door today!

Being Sunday, we all try to sleep in at least an extra hour. Well, Angel did her best to comply (the other dogs know the routine), but at 7:35, she started talking to me at the side of the bed, and poking me with her nose. It might have been because the other dogs were at the other end of the house pestering my MIL to let them out and feed them breakfast. So, suddenly Angel and Cubby went racing out of my bedroom, and then I heard a giant commotion at the front door as all 5 dogs tired to get out the dog door at once. When I got up, my MIL told me that Angel went right out the door with the rest of the pack, she did not have to hold up the flap for her.

After breakfast, all the dogs went out, and only 4 came back in. Angel was laying in the shade on the far side of the yard, like she used to do in the pasture. So I sent the aussies out, and the 3 of them had a good romp for about 30 minutes. I have to tell you Angel is FAST! She can outrun and out-maneuver the aussies, which is pretty impressive to me. Humm, if I ever get her over some of her phobias, maybe agility training for her?

So, I figured I had a few moments of quiet, and did some of my morning routine stuff, and when I came out of the bathroom, there was Angel laying outside the bathroom door. So I said "who let you in?" and I asked the other humans in the house, and they all said they did not let her in. I guess she figured it out.

The nice part about having a 1/2 acre front yard all fenced in, and 4 other dogs, is that they manage to exercise themselves, so I don't have to spend hours walking them.

Our next challenge in a few weeks will be when I get to dog-sit for my neighbors Pomeranian. She fit in fine with the other 4 dogs, not sure if Angel will have any issues, perhaps the aussies will keep her in line. And of course I will keep her in line, I'm just hoping that the other 4 dogs will again be good role models for her.

SevenDogs

Aug. 16, 2009, 12:20 PM

Yipee! :)

MHM

Aug. 16, 2009, 04:06 PM

Love your description that you had to ask "all the humans in the house" if they let her in! :lol:

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 16, 2009, 09:29 PM

Love your description that you had to ask "all the humans in the house" if they let her in! :lol:

Thanks! I could ask the dogs, but they rarely answer me. Like when I ask them "where is Angel?" and they just look at me.

Angel passed a major test today. The whole family went out for dinner, and due to slow cooks, we were gone for 2 and 1/2 hours. When we returned, nothing was chewed or out of place, not even my father-in-laws shoes!

Right now she is playing a game of "keep away" with the aussies, she is amazingly agile. When the aussies think they have her trapped, she simply hops right over them - from a standstill. She has a toy, and the aussies are trying to get it away from her, and she is winning.

Blacklabs

Aug. 16, 2009, 09:53 PM

Cheers for Angel!!!!

onetrickpony

Aug. 16, 2009, 09:57 PM

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 16, 2009, 10:09 PM

Awesome news on the dog door! We knew she'd figure it out sooner than later. She's a smart puppy! And you know, the ability to let herself in and out might alleviate the chewing that she's doing inside. NOT being able to come and go as she pleased might have been causing anxiety, which might have led to the chewing on furniture. Now maybe the extra freedom will curb those tendencies?

Here's hoping, anyway. :winkgrin:

(Let's not all forget that Angel is a confirmed shredder. Remember MM's posts pre-capture? She wrote almost daily about picking up the newspapers and toys that Angel tore apart. So I'm not surprised to see the behavior continue inside. She'll figure out that part, too.)

I hope so too! I have to tell you that it is nice not having to spend the extra 5 minutes picking up the shredded newspapers anymore. Knocking on wood here, she has not shredded anything paper here yet, and she has opportunity, I have a pile of catalogs in my office waiting to be taken to the recycling bin and she has not touched them since the day that she did try to sneak one off the pile and I told her "no".

I forgot to mention that one of my neighbors came over tonight to go to dinner with us, and Angel came right up to him with the pack and greeted him as if she has been doing this her whole life. He was amazed at the change in her.

harveyhorses

Aug. 17, 2009, 07:57 AM

I am so happy for you and Angel! (hope your feelings aren't hurt that I check the kitten thread first:winkgrin:)
Maybe the shredding was insecurity or stress? like chewing my fingernails. Or maybe she just likes shredding. :no:;)
That is amazing to me that she is greeting other people with such confidence. Talk about coming out of her shell!

MHM

Aug. 17, 2009, 09:54 AM

Here's a thought. Can Angel see the barn from the fenced yard?

Maybe now that she's figured out the dog door, she'll be able to "keep an eye" on you and the barn from the yard. I agree that the furniture abuse may be related to separation anxiety or frustration at being left inside.

Hopefully she's over the worst of it. :)

lcw579

Aug. 17, 2009, 11:56 AM

I continue to be amazed at the leaps and bounds Angel is making. What an great job you have done with her MM. I think she is a dog of a lifetime.

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 17, 2009, 01:48 PM

I think the shredding is just a regular old dog thing. The aussies still shred used tissues, and any stuffed toy that we used to bring into the house (learned to leave those on the shelf at the pet store and not waste our money). Actually, all the dogs do their best to "gut" things that have stuffing in them. Murphy (the brittany) used to destroy dog beds, and did her share of ripping the bed quilts as a puppy.

I also am working on getting her to "curb her enthusiasm" first thing in the morning, she comes in and sings to me, then leaps on the bed and nibbles on my ear, or bats at me with her paws, or digs in the covers. And for a 40 pound dog, she has big feet! I know the aussies did that for a while when they were growing up, and they eventually learned to just come in and lay down, that "romp in your room" is not a desired activity first thing in the morning. I'm trying to recall how I trained them to stop it. Wrestling with her does no good, she thinks that is a game, I do try to calmly get her to lay down, sometimes it works. Oh well, every day is training day with dogs and horses, right?

She has a vet appointment for a booster shot of something, my DD is going along for the ride and support, since it will be the first time we take her in the truck without the crate.

FalseImpression

Aug. 17, 2009, 03:18 PM

I am still shaking my head at the total turn around. It is as if she was only waiting for something like this to happen... Reminds me of a friend of mine who had a difficult rescue mare who would turn and kick at you if given the chance. She managed to put a halter on her by feeding her grain with a bucket... and decided one day to worm her by giving her a half a dose. Mare crashed. Vet came and while she was down, got her feet done, got lots of attention, etc. When she recovered, she was a changed horse. You could groom her, pet her, lead her. I am convinced that animals, when sedated or ill, still perceive you are helping them... that's also how my farrier finally got through to my mare. Vet tranq'd her 4 times for the farrier and then farrier said "She ll be fine next time w/o the vet". I still had him come, but he just stood by while farrier worked. No problem since! and now, six years later, she loves the farrier!!!

suze

Aug. 17, 2009, 05:52 PM

Wrestling with her does no good, she thinks that is a game

Are you SURE this is the same dog that wouldn't let you touch her for 7 months?? :lol::lol:

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 17, 2009, 11:39 PM

Are you SURE this is the same dog that wouldn't let you touch her for 7 months?? :lol::lol:

Amazing isn't it! Tonight she got wedged in the dog door with Cubby, the two of them tried to come through at the same time. And she was playing "toy swap" with the two aussies, in between rounds of tug of war.

She can see the barn from the front yard. Tonight as I was going to the barn to take off the fly masks, the 3 dogs came charging across the yard, the aussies barked at me, and then Angel lay down near the fence and waited for me to come back up to the house. So, I think pretty soon I will cross my fingers and first take her for a walk about the back yard - which she could get out and back to the barn if she wanted to - and see if she will come to me from there. There is a part of me that is still nervous that she would run away, despite living the good life here in the house.

Today she also took a few trips out the dog door on her own, without the pack along for the trip.

Off to bed, these early morning romp in your room sessions are taking their toll.

MHM

Aug. 18, 2009, 12:39 AM

I think/hope/pray she'll be good about going to the barn and coming back into the house with you.

I also think it's time for fresh pack pictures. Especially if you can get a picture of them playing or jammed in the dog door. :lol:

lcw579

Aug. 18, 2009, 11:05 AM

I agree with MHM!

Somehow I think that Angel knows she has found her own private heaven and isn't going to go back to the wild willingly. Why give up couches, beds and friends for life in the great outdoors?

jetsmom

Aug. 18, 2009, 12:06 PM

Can you take her down to the barn and back on a leash the first couple of times? (Or a longe line?)

Otherwise, maybe do it before feeding time (for her, and have a few tasty treats in your pocket) so she is hungry and wanting dinner. Give her a treat before you leave the gate so she knows you have them, then another at the barn. Might help.

I personally, wouldn't take her until she walks on a leash so I could take her down there and back a couple times to instill a habit of going/returning. But that's just me. You've done such a good job with her, and know her better than anyone else, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.:)

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 18, 2009, 01:28 PM

Jetsmom, I was hoping you would chime in here. I agree that a long leash might be best for the first few outings, which means I do need to step up and get her over her leash phobia. And get a harness, since she can pull her head out of the collar.

I felt bad today, my husband had to get something from his car, so he took 3 of the dogs out with him, and Angel really wanted to go, so I gave her some chicken as a consolation prize. I know he won't take her until we are sure she won't take off.

I'm probably being an old hen for nothing, you all are probably right, now that she has had the taste of the good life, why would she want to go back to the wild side? But I would really kick myself if I was wrong and she did take off. I suppose that even if she did, she would come back pretty quickly.

I'll have to get some pictures of her playing or hanging with the pack, playing might be tricky, she is so darned fast!

harveyhorses

Aug. 18, 2009, 07:19 PM

I can understand completly how you are scared to let her go neked, no leash fence etc. There might be a little bit of frolicing at 'her' barn, but I am sure (reasonably;)) that when you head back up to the house she will be right there with you, so she can rub the 'house dogs' nose in howspecial she is.
Leash first.

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 18, 2009, 07:30 PM

She is becoming more of a pack dog every day. Today another neighbor stopped in to pick up his check for mowing my drainage swales, and of course the dogs went nuts with the barking. Then they all bolted out the door, and Angel was right there with them, but she wasn't barking, but she did put her fur up.

I also caught her out sunbathing on the front sidewalk, at first I thought she was alone, but Candy was out there also, waiting for my MIL to come home.

And she "talks" to me, like the aussies do. She saunters into my office and tells me all about something or other, or maybe she is just saying "thanks"!

I'll let you know how her first uncrated truck ride to the vet goes. I am bringing my DD with me to keep her from climbing all over me as I drive. Good thing the vet's office is only 5 miles from here.

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 19, 2009, 04:42 PM

Our return trip to the vet's office for booster shots was successful, all things considered.

As soon as I slipped the leash over her head, Angel dropped to the floor, so I had to carry all 43 pounds of her out to the truck and deposited her in the back seat. She cowered for about 30 seconds, then timidly sat up to look out the window, I think her curiosity was overcoming her fear. She stayed nicely in the back seat for the ride over.

When we got there, I sort of had to bodily drag her out of the truck, and carry her into the office and put her on the scale for a weigh in. She has gained 3 pounds in the past 3 weeks. After cowering on the floor in the waiting room for a few minutes, she did get up and tentatively sniff around. Of course everyone in the clinic came out to say hello to her.

The vet was nice and gave her shots right out in the waiting room, so we didn't have to try to get her into an exam room today.

After paying the bill, Angel did follow us out the door, but when I went to pick her up to put her in the truck, she again dropped to the ground (I ended up scraping a knuckle on the sidewalk while trying to lift her).

She did fine on the ride home, and was more eager to get out of the truck when we got home.

And I don't think she is holding a grudge, I'm still getting all the lovely doggie kisses from her.

suze

Aug. 19, 2009, 04:50 PM

I thing the more she has the leash on for good experiences the more relaxed she'll get about it. The first time we took our shelter cat to the vet he was a nervous wreck & left little sweaty paw prints all over the exam table. Next time he went he greeted everybody and was fine. I think the more she goes for rides & then goes home the better she'll be. How about a trip to the Dairy Queen where she could have her own little dish of vanilla ice cream? :)

SevenDogs

Aug. 19, 2009, 04:58 PM

So nice that she is doing so, so well!

She may have some "rescue dog" qualities for awhile, ike cowering when you go to pick her up, etc., and some may never go all the way away, but it's okay. I have a rescue horse that has been out of his bad situation for over 15 years and has been with me four.

To this day, if I am not paying attention and come towards his face with my hand in a certain way, he flinches and jumps back. He knows I am not going to hit him, and he looks at me afterwards like he regret it, but it is just so ingrained. It has gotten less and less and less, but I have to be okay with the fact that he may always do that on occasion and it doesn't mean he is truly worried or scared. It is just a part of him.

Angel knows she is in a safe and loving home. She knows that you are her person and her lucky day is here! I too can't wait until she can go to the barn with you (although I appreciate your caution). I think it will be her "special" time with you! :)

Can I go on a trip to Dairy Queen for my very own little dish of vanilla ice cream? ....okay, maybe not so little.... and, maybe with some hot fudge.... and while you are at it, some whipped cream?..... ;)

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 19, 2009, 05:02 PM

Well, I did buy a harness today for her, I just need to figure out how to put it on her without total trauma! I think then I can put a long leash or lunge line on her and take her to the barn with me.

Good point about the car rides, I will have to do that, so she doesn't think that riding in the truck = vet visit. Maybe take her with me when I have to drop my DD off for her extra curricular activities. That way my DD can manage the doors for me to get her into the truck, I think I can manage when we get home.

MHM

Aug. 19, 2009, 05:51 PM

Yes, it's amazing how quickly they learn to hop right in the car once they discover there are places you can drive where they'll give you food right out the window!!!:lol:

My dog has always been happy to get in the car, but when we pull up to a drive through window, he really turns into one of Pavlov's dogs. Drool everywhere. :rolleyes:

Valentina_32926

Aug. 19, 2009, 06:01 PM

...My dog has always been happy to get in the car, but when we pull up to a drive through window, he really turns into one of Pavlov's dogs. Drool everywhere. :rolleyes:

Yup - My dog does that at the bank cause they send doggie cookies out with the deposit slips! :yes:

EponaRoan

Aug. 19, 2009, 07:05 PM

Yes! Take her to the drive-through and treat her with onion rings or french fries. My dogs give that a big thumb/dew claw up. :D I took one of mine along when I went to get dog food last week. We'd gone to the vet's for a blood draw (not a traumatic thing for him) and since it was rainy and coolish, I just kept going down the street to stop and get a bag of dog food. Anyway, he was quite interested in the fact that someone came out and put his food in the back of the car. Then we hit Jack in the Box which is always exciting since it involves MORE food and then got gas (food for the car!). It was quite eventful & exciting to go on errands. :lol: I'll have to do something fun with the other dog the next time it's coolish. Just to be fair, ya know.

harveyhorses

Aug. 19, 2009, 08:15 PM

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 19, 2009, 08:24 PM

Humm, I think I should take both Angel and Murphy for a truck ride! Murphy can be the good role model again, since she tries to hop into the truck (too hard for her now that she is older, and that truck is so high), and rides pretty well. Then a trip to McD's might be in order. Or maybe I will just have dog treats in the car and go for a short ride around the neighborhood. That way I don't have to deal with "people-food-induced-dog-flatulence" later on.

Tomorrow Murphy goes in to get her teeth cleaned. She is making me a bit nuts begging for treats, and she can't have any food due to the anethesia tomorrow.

Angel comes in every so often and sort of whines at me, I don't know what she wants, I played a bit of tug of war with her, and she seemed to like it.

suze

Aug. 19, 2009, 08:49 PM

A lot of times we'll take the dogs with us & just stop in at the vet's to say "hi". They always get petted & cookies & if they have to go in it seems to make it not such a big dael as the office girls & the vets are all friends from the extra visits.

JanM

Aug. 19, 2009, 08:51 PM

Just go to McDonald's drive up and get an order of chicken selects-the nuggets are reconstucted meat mashed together resembling chicken, but the selects are actually chicken. Or a chicken sandwich plain, grilled and you can all share. She'll get better with the leash, and she's come so far already on everything else. She might get upset when you go and drop Murphy off at the vet and come home alone, because that changes her pack. Just think, a month ago this was all a dream and she was living in the fields.

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 19, 2009, 10:46 PM

Lord do I hate the pre-surgery no food rule! The dogs are all making me nuts, because the routine is that my DH takes them for a stroll around the yard, and then they get a treat from me. So they don't understand why I don't get out of my office chair and get them one.

Hopefully Angel will not be too stressed by Murphy being gone for the day, I think she will be okay, especially if the aussies keep her busy. The tough part is that my MIL gets up early, and the vet's office doesn't open until 7:30, and the dogs are used to eating before that time, and it is going to be a bit crazy for about an hour.

MHM

Aug. 19, 2009, 11:44 PM

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 20, 2009, 01:17 PM

Oh, yes, the pre-surgery fast. No fun for anybody!

We just went through that last week, when my dog got his teeth cleaned. He was absolutely OUTRAGED that I didn't give him his breakfast. The vet's office could not open early enough for me. I was practically tapping on the window when they unlocked the door. :lol:

Me too! However, signing the "quote" for services on my own empty stomach was not a good thing - egads, it is getting costly to own these animals. Especially this month!

So far Angel is not phased that Murphy is not here, she is laying in the office with the other 3 dogs with me, we are trapped while the cleaning crew gets rid of the tumbleweeds and dust in the house. Makes me want to curl up on the floor with them.

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 20, 2009, 06:05 PM

Please tell me I am not a bad dog mom, I feel horrible about how bad Murphy's teeth were, they had to pull 3 of them, all way in the back, and now I have to keep a close eye on her for swelling, etc. I feel horrible that I let it go this long. The vet was very kind, telling me that there is no way that a dog owner could know how bad it is, since dogs are good at ignoring tooth pains, and she never ever refused to eat. It breaks my heart that she now has to be feeling not well.

And Angel was not happy that I was not home this afternoon, as I was at the vet's to pick up Murphy, a t-storm rolled in, and my MIL said that Angel came into her living room looking for me and whining. She was very happy to see me and Murphy when we got home.

The other amazing thing is how gentle all the dogs are with Murphy right now, almost as if they know that she is under the weather, and being nice to her.

Go Fish

Aug. 20, 2009, 06:53 PM

Ah, don't feel bad. One of my Corgis had to have two teeth pulled this past spring and she'd had her teeth cleaned a year ago. My vet told me to brush her teeth every day...yeah, right. I like my fingers attached they way they are now, thank you very much. :lol:

MHM

Aug. 20, 2009, 06:56 PM

MM, you are the furthest thing in the world from a bad dog owner!

Dogs are tricky- the vets sometimes find things that take the owner completely by surprise.

That's sweet that the other dogs are so tuned in to her.

suze

Aug. 20, 2009, 07:14 PM

What you've done with Angel prove you're a good dog mommy. Don't sweat the teeth; it's not your fault.

How about some new pics? Like playing with the other dogs? :)

Larksmom

Aug. 20, 2009, 07:35 PM

Oh I am sure she is! It helped Toffee tremendously that when we went out, Amy always sits in the back with her nose out the window, drinking in all the smells. She sits sedately, whiile Toff roams the back seat. I have to restrain Toffee from getting into the car first, because it is more difficult for Amy, as she is so old, and if Toff gets in first, she will pounce at Amy. A doesn't care for that at all, but she has taught the younger one some ettiquite about riding in cars. Rule #1. DO NOT jump out the window! So far, so good. It has been a cool summer, and I have been able to take them places, and leave the windows down. Toffee and I start obedience training tomorrow night. Very excited! Iwant to sugest a trick with Angel, maybe hook the leash on the harness and leave it on awhile. Then maybe she can get more used to it, at least in the house.

JanM

Aug. 20, 2009, 08:35 PM

MM-Don't feel bad, you are a great dog mommie. My dog's last cleaning revealed a very broken molar-and the vet was surprised and didn't notice until she was cleaning back there. Animals hide everything (except when they puke in the middle of your living room rug of course) just the way they did in the wild. And don't forget some breeds traditionally have bad teeth, and some don't get the proper minerals to develop strong teeth from before birth and into the vital first months-so you really can't do anything about that now. And Murphy will bounce right back-unlike humans the dogs don't have to run around whining about how miserable they are.

harveyhorses

Aug. 20, 2009, 08:59 PM

You are a great dog mom! (your dogs might just feel you are a little too good) many dogs don't get dentals.

jetsmom

Aug. 20, 2009, 09:16 PM

Maybe try giving them some raw bones (chicken wing, knuckle bones, etc) to let them clean their own teeth. Apparently, raw bones can be fine. They chew them up and eat them. Dogs don't get Salmonella, due to their short digestive tracts. See this thread for info and before/after pics.

http://www.dogforums.com/13-dog-health-questions/56285-moderate-tartar-back-teeth.html

.Consider separating the dogs when giving a bone, so you don't cause fights, if one finishes sooner than the others.

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 20, 2009, 09:31 PM

Thanks everyone. Murphy seems to be feeling a bit better, she perked up a few hours after she came home, and ate some dinner, and is getting back to normal. I'm keeping an eye on her face, the vet told me that one of the upper back teeth they had trouble with, the roots had fused to the bone, so the surgery was a bit difficult, and they told me to watch her carefully to make sure she didn't have eye trouble (just what I need, one more thing to worry about). So far so good.

Angel is funny, she likes to play tug of war with me now, but she doesn't bring the toy to me, she just comes in my office and talks to me, and stares at me (I think she learned that from the aussies).

All my dogs do have all sorts of things to chew on, sterilized beef bones, hard nylabones, rope tug toys. I guess it was not enough to keep the tartar from becoming an issue. I do have to say that her breath is 200% better! Angel just let me check her teeth, pretty good for an almost feral dog. Her teeth are beautifully clean.

JanM

Aug. 20, 2009, 09:50 PM

Some dogs just seem to have teeth that attract gunk. Years ago I had a Min. Pinscher that had teeth that never seemed to be plaque free for long. And her saliva seemed to be stickier than my others dogs. I noticed because when she would leave her chewed nylabones around I would gather them up and they were totally gross. I wonder if it's a different chemical makeup for some dogs?

SevenDogs

Aug. 21, 2009, 12:13 AM

Are you kidding? You are like the doggie version of "Mother of the Year"! :yes:

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 21, 2009, 09:45 PM

Well, I might have lost my "Dog Mom of the Year" award chances today. At 4:00 AM, Angel pounced on me in bed, I was thinking, what the heck us up with this?!?!? So I spent a few minutes getting her to calm down, and then I went back to sleep. She came back at 6:30 AM, so I got up and opened the front door, so the dogs could go outside via the dog door.

We all had to get up early anyway so that I could take my daughter to the beach today for her "end of summer" fling before school starts on Monday. My daughter got up and yelled from her room, "Mom, your dog crapped and peed in my room!" I said, "How did she get in your room, and when did this happen?" My daughter usually has her bedroom door shut, but I guess she didn't close it all the way, so after I went back to sleep at 4AM, Angel went to my DD's room and got locked in - what happens is the breeze from the ceiling fan will "close" her door, and Angel could not get out. She did poke my daughter awake at 6AM, and my daughter just got up, let her out of her room and went back to sleep (the joys of being a teenager).

So, the poor dog was trying her darndest to get me to understand that she had to go out, and I missed the hint.

My MIL said that Angel was fine today, but she says that she is still a bit standoffish with the rest of the family. Angel was happy to see me when I got home from the beach, and has been good this evening with the exception of sort of jump/swiping me with her front feet, and this is shorts weather, so I am sporting a few unattractive racing stripes on my legs this evening.

Ooops, hubby just caught her chewing on the blanket on the couch, guess that will be a good thing, as soon as I heard him, I went in and also reprimanded her and made her get off of the couch, and gave her a toy instead. I'm trying to make sure that she doesn't try my husband's patience, he seems to be a bit short of that tonight for whatever reason.

JanM

Aug. 22, 2009, 09:21 AM

Actually, the fact that she tried to tell you and your daughter that she had to go out is good-she got the point, but you both didn't. Things like that do happen, and it's good you caught her chewing and redirected her. She's so smart she'll get the point quickly.

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 22, 2009, 10:12 AM

Same routine again today, 4:30 AM wake up pounce, this time I got up, stumbled to the front door, and opened it so they could go out, and stumbled back to bed. Followed by the 6:30 AM pounce, not sure why, she had already had breakfast from my MIL and the door was still open. Guess it is going to take some time for her to get the routine.

Also, she still seems to have times where she wants to live outside, now that she can come and go at will, she goes out and just hangs in the front yard. Last night it was bedtime, and I had to go hunting for her, and there she was just laying out in the yard. And of course not close to the house, and of course would not come when called, so once again I had to recruit Cubby to come help round her up.

I have to say that when she goes into play mode, she can be a bit of a wild thing. She races around, bouncing off the furniture, and is just a bundle of energy. Luckily these outbursts are usually short lived.

My husband should be starting up the nail gun anytime this morning, that might send the bunch of dogs out the dog door to hide from the noise, especially poor Angel, who has not experienced much construction noise in the house yet.

suze

Aug. 24, 2009, 01:14 PM

Ummmm . . . it Monday? So where's the weekend update? :D

Even though she seems to like just laying outside I don't see her giving up the cushy couch and inside time & buddies when you start taking her to the barn. She just might need a brain break from all the hustle & bustle after being any only (and lonely) dog for so long.

MHM

Aug. 24, 2009, 01:35 PM

Also, she still seems to have times where she wants to live outside, now that she can come and go at will, she goes out and just hangs in the front yard. Last night it was bedtime, and I had to go hunting for her, and there she was just laying out in the yard.

My older dog used to do this a lot. She would spend lots of time out in the fenced yard. I think she liked to keep an eye on things- she would also sleep inside the house, but near the dog door, and if she heard something unauthorized, she would leap to her feet and dash outside, barking up a storm. She took her guard dog duties very seriously.

She just passed away over the winter. She was a great dog. :sadsmile:

lcw579

Aug. 24, 2009, 04:04 PM

Ummmm . . . it Monday? So where's the weekend update? :D

Yes, MM, just because we are now all checking in on the kittens doesn't mean we don't want to know what Angel has been up to! :)

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 24, 2009, 04:54 PM

Sorry folks, busy weekend here on the farm (aren't they all?).

Angel is doing well, but she still has some moments where she regresses. For example, last night at bedtime, she didn't want to come in, no matter how many times I sent Cubby out to round her up. She would run up to the steps, and then run back into the yard. After 6 rounds of this new game, I went out, reached for her collar, she flattened herself to the ground, and I had to pick her up and carry her into the house. And she is funny about treats, she doesn't like to get her treats with the pack, she sort of stands off to the back.

I need a movie person to come and film this dog, her playing antics are a hoot. She can leap right over the aussies, even if they are all running full tilt, or do some "low running" and run underneath them! I'm quite sure I would not be fast enough with the video camera, since I can never tell when she is going around, or over or under one of her friends.

She still gets over enthusiastic in the bedroom in the morning, I guess I just need to be persistent and consistent in teaching her that "attacking" the humans is not desirable behavior.

My MIL observed that Angel will go in and watch my FIL, and he can talk to her, but if he moves towards her, she runs out of the room. It makes him sad, he does not understand the stray dog mind at all, no matter how many times we tell him that it is going to have to be up to her as to when she wants to be friends.

She is still not consistently coming when called either. But then I remember that the aussies took a while, and heck, there are days even now where they become conviently deaf!

Right now all 5 dogs are getting antsy, dinner is a bit late (my MIL has them spoiled by feeding them exactly at the same time), and I am on the phone trying to stay awake during a very boring meeting right now. As soon as this ends, I can go feed them.

SevenDogs

Aug. 24, 2009, 06:33 PM

Thanks for the update, MM! :)

FalseImpression

Aug. 24, 2009, 06:41 PM

Yes, thank you for the update. We are almost due for new pictures too!! ;)

Another story of strays that will bring tears to your eyes. It still need a happy ending too!
http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.d..../908240326/1009 (http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090824/LIVING/908240326/1009)

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 24, 2009, 09:50 PM

Oh, that is sad. Bless that woman for helping all the dogs, and I do hope they can find a home for them both.

Angel did a few funny things today. My husband ordered a new piece of furniture (total assembly required) for his office. When Fed Ex delivered the big boxes, my husband went out with the hand cart to bring them in. As he was coming in the front gate, Angel started barking at him, in her guard dog voice. This is the first time she has done this since she moved into the house. She doesn't even bark when the rest of the pack starts to bark at something.

Later this afternoon, I heard the sound of a plastic water bottle crinkling in the living room. At first I thought my daughter was playing with it, but she was not home. So I went out to investigate, and there was Angel with her paws and teeth on the bottle. So I took that away and gave her a toy instead.

And she is getting funny about the treats, when it is time to hand them out, instead of coming to get one, she runs away. So I told her today, I am not chasing you to give you a treat, if you want it you have to come with everyone else, and I put her's back in the box. We will see if that works.

pony89

Aug. 24, 2009, 10:07 PM

Maybe the treats are not quite up to snuff, compared to what she ate out in the barn :lol:

Crooked Horse

Aug. 24, 2009, 11:44 PM

Maybe the treats are not quite up to snuff, compared to what she ate out in the barn :lol:

OMG - no KIDDING!!!!!!!

SevenDogs

Aug. 25, 2009, 02:09 AM

Didn't you used to toss her treats in play? Maybe she is trying to re-create the playtime that she is missing from the barn?

.... grasping, I know. She needs to learn to come get treats with everyone else! :yes:

suze

Aug. 25, 2009, 02:02 PM

Thanks for the update!

Maybe have your FIL play with one of her toys? Not looking at her when he does it - tossing it, or bouncing it & just ignoring her. Maybe she'll want to play eventually.

I'll betcha if you offered her steak or chicken as a treat she'd take it.:lol: She's no longer worried about where her next meal will come from - maybe she's just not hungry.

I'm quite sure I would not be fast enough with the video camera, since I can never tell when she is going around, or over or under one of her friends.

Don't watch when you tape - follow the motion like a target in a gunsight.

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 25, 2009, 09:00 PM

Granted, the treats are sub-par in comparison to what she got at the barn - I can't give her any people food and not give it to the rest of the pack, and it gives the rest of the pack some incredibly bad gas!

I'm not going to push the making friends with my FIL, honestly he has no clue about dogs, he spoils them rotten - I catch him letting the dogs eat off his plate on the kitchen table for example. So I am okay if she stays a bit standoffish with him.

She is getting a little bit better about the morning "attacks", I did get her to lay quietly with us in bed this morning for about 5 minutes. And her 5:30 AM wake up nugde was a bit gentler than usual.

Tonight she keeps coming in the office and whining, because the aussies are busy chewing on nylabones, and won't play with her. So she comes in to complain to me, like a kid saying "Mom, they won't play with me". I told her there were plenty of toys in the box, and to go get one just like they did.

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 26, 2009, 12:58 PM

OY! Sometimes little Angel can be a little devil! This morning the wake-up nudge was at 5:50 (getting better). I got up, opened the front door, both Angel and Murphy popped out the door and then right back in - I think they thought breakfast was forthcoming - not!

I managed to get my bedroom door shut and crawled back to bed with DH and Cubby (Cubby is smart enough to know that it was too early for breakfast).

About 6:45, I hear my DH get up and open the bedroom door and yell "Knock It OFF!", so evidently one or both of them were most likely scratching at the bedroom door. Well, all hell broke loose then, Angel lept onto the bed, and went into some sort of a frenzy, rolling, digging, kicking - in full play mode! This set off Cubby, who went into play mode with her - well, I think it was playing, there was a lot of growling going on from Cubby's side, which escallated Angel even more.

I sat up, and tried to do my best Cesar Milan imitation, to try to get her to calm down. I cannot say I was successful. So I have been again racking my brain trying to figure out how did I do this with the aussies, since they were also very rambunctious as puppies. Of course it is easier to wrestle a 15 pound pup vs a 43 pound full grown dog. For a dog that is usually timid and submissive, when she is in play mode, she totally forgets that she is supposed to be afraid of the humans.

On a good note, she is learning to "sit" on command. "Come" is still 50/50 with her.

And right now she is sleeping on the couch in the living room, belly-side-up :D

MHM

Aug. 26, 2009, 01:05 PM

And right now she is sleeping on the couch in the living room, belly-side-up :D

And where is the picture of this???

EponaRoan

Aug. 26, 2009, 01:47 PM

My dogs learn early that I am a total BITCH when they wake me up. Sort of the canine version of make them think you're going to kill them for 10 seconds ... :D just sayin' ...

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 26, 2009, 02:39 PM

My dogs learn early that I am a total BITCH when they wake me up. Sort of the canine version of make them think you're going to kill them for 10 seconds ... :D just sayin' ...

Oh me too! That is the problem, Angel hasn't learned this yet, guess I need to step it up and really put the fear of my wrath into her (figuratively speaking of course). I've even tried the usually things that ordinarily make her cower (like tugging on the collar or putting both hands in her armpits as if I am going to pick her up), and no dice, all her fears fly away when she is in the middle of party mode! All the rest of the dogs know that when I growl "GO LAY DOWN!" that mom means business.

Sorry, I didn't have the camera handy as she was belly-side-up! We are having one of our frequent FL t-storms right now, and Jenna is under my desk in her hidey-hole, and Angel came in here to sleep on the office couch. When she is sleeping she is so sweet!

Oh, wait, I might have the solution. She is afraid of things that make loud popping noises (like flipping the top of a soda can). Now I need to rig something to make that noise - humm, reverse clicker training? Ooohh - maybe some bubble wrap with the big bubbles, and look here is some right in my office in the trash! I'll have to try it later.

suze

Aug. 26, 2009, 05:06 PM

So I have been again racking my brain trying to figure out how did I do this with the aussies, since they were also very rambunctious as puppies. Of course it is easier to wrestle a 15 pound pup vs a 43 pound full grown dog.

But she never got to BE a puppy in a family. So she's going through it now. We just would tuck our arms into the covers tight & pull them up when we've had puppies so we couldn't get dug out. Then a few well-placed growls of "knock it off" and scrinched up eyes eventually lessened then stopped the behavior. Now the younger one, Rosie, likes coming up early and snuggling. As she is a rather focused border collie, it's when she's driest, cleanest and least smelly, which is nice. (Thank gawd for a bc's teflon coat!) It's also about the only time she is a giver of "schmuckies" (kisses) as she is otherwise very stingy with them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MunchkinsMom

And right now she is sleeping on the couch in the living room, belly-side-up

And where is the picture of this???

Yes, where is the picture?

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 26, 2009, 10:26 PM

But she never got to BE a puppy in a family. So she's going through it now. We just would tuck our arms into the covers tight & pull them up when we've had puppies so we couldn't get dug out. Then a few well-placed growls of "knock it off" and scrinched up eyes eventually lessened then stopped the behavior. Now the younger one, Rosie, likes coming up early and snuggling. As she is a rather focused border collie, it's when she's driest, cleanest and least smelly, which is nice. (Thank gawd for a bc's teflon coat!) It's also about the only time she is a giver of "schmuckies" (kisses) as she is otherwise very stingy with them.

Yes, where is the picture?

You are right, I guess she is going through delayed puppyhood right now. The aussies are good in the morning, they go out for my MIL and then come back into bed with us, and just curl up and go back to sleep. Angel has changed the morning dynamics, by enticing Cubby to play with her. And as all working dogs do, when I am trying to teach Angel, the aussies try to "help" keep her in line, which Angel perceives to be more playing.

I have to remember to put the bubble wrap on the beside table tonight so I can grab it in the AM as needed.

She just came in to say hello, and now went to find a place to nap.

MHM

Aug. 26, 2009, 10:35 PM

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 26, 2009, 10:48 PM

Awww.

I don't remember- what age do you think she really is? Did the vet have an age estimate?

A friend of mine used a professional trainer with her dogs, and they gave her a small bag with a light chain in it. If you threw the bag on the floor near the dog (not AT the dog), the noise would startle them, and they learned it was a sign they should stop their unwanted behavior. I'll bet a curb chain in a ziploc bag would do the same thing.

The vet didn't really say, but my neighbor and I know she was in the neighborhood for a year in May, and we estimate that she was about 4-5 months old when she first showed up, based on her size then and her size now. So that would make her about 20 months or a little over a year and a half.

Humm, I have a few old choke chain collars laying around the house, I could try that also. Two weeks ago, just clapping my hands and the loud "ATTT!" would work, but that doesn't phase her much now. I need to teach her the "time out!" command.

kdow

Aug. 26, 2009, 11:20 PM

If she's only a year and a half then she really IS still a puppy in a lot of ways. (Our rotti/GSD mix didn't really finish growing physically OR mentally until he was ~2 or so.)

So you might have to adjust expectations accordingly, the same way you'd change what you expect of a young horse vs an older one in terms of learning speed and attention span and ability to generalize and so on.

SevenDogs

Aug. 26, 2009, 11:29 PM

I know that I am not getting woken up at 5:30 am (at least by Angel!) and I am not having to sew the quilts back together or try to put the chewed couch back together, but what fabulous problems to have!

We had a german shepherd/rottie/something else mix and we found her when she was approximately 9 mos old? She had another couple years of puppy energy and behavior. I remember turning to my husband when she was about 18 months and saying "do you think she will calm down before she's dead of old age?". Indeed, she did calm down significantly in her third year and was the most fabulous dog until we lost her last year at age 13.

It is frustrating and fabulous all at the same time when something that used to stop a rescue from bad behavior (your clapping for Angel) no longer fazes them. You want them to listen to you, but knowing how much more confident they have become is very rewarding. .... Not rewarding enough to be pounced on at the crack of dawn (or before!), however. :lol:

MHM

Aug. 26, 2009, 11:48 PM

Not rewarding enough to be pounced on at the crack of dawn (or before!), however. :lol:

Yes, it's really a good news/bad news scenario.

The rest of us are enjoying it tremendously, though. :lol:

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 27, 2009, 10:32 AM

Thanks, that does help keep it in perspective. I realized this morning that I am not in a good frame of mind, nor emotionally stable enough at 5:30 AM to attempt to do any training. So, when she poked me and "talked" to me, I simply got up and let her out, and managed this time to keep Murphy (who is the door scratcher) in the bedroom, and went back to sleep behind closed doors. I think my MIL came and let Murphy and Cubby out for breakfast when she got up. So I manged to actually sleep in for a while today.

I guess I should try to master the video camera and post something to Youtube (no promises tho), because when she talks to me it is too darned funny. She has a very deep growly voice that she uses, reminds me of the Bill Cosby voice that he used for Fat Albert.

I think she has learned not to eat the furniture and/or bedding, shoes seem to be safe now, I think she has figured out the difference between toys and furnishings.

She also does not like to be hugged sometimes, it makes her cringe, but I can see her trying so hard to overcome her fear of it, so I always praise her highly when she manages that. Of course if she is in full play mode, then hugging does not bother her.

This is an interesting exercise in dog training, I am used to starting with young puppies, who are blank slates, here I have to remember that I have some history and former learned behaviors to re-train.

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 27, 2009, 10:20 PM

Angel actually sat for me today when I said "sit"! And she actually licked my father-in-law's hand. And just now she was walking by in the hallway, and I called her and she came in to me, so I gave her some good scritches and she curled up on the couch when I was done.

Should be interesting to see how she reacts to my neighbor's Pomeranian when she comes to stay with us on Saturday. Hope it goes well, or my life will be filled with dog gates again for a while. Good thing I didn't put the puppy pen back in the shed yet.

Buffyblue

Aug. 27, 2009, 10:34 PM

I was just reading somewhere (one of my many dog books?) that dogs don't actually hug - it's a primate thing. Mine tolerate it because I've always done it, I guess. I just started clicker training and it's actually fun. My Aussies love it. It's like a game for them and when the little one gets the zoomies, it seems to focus her right back to a normal frame of mind! Maybe something to look into for Angel?

suze

Aug. 27, 2009, 10:54 PM

Angel actually sat for me today when I said "sit"! And she actually licked my father-in-law's hand. And just now she was walking by in the hallway, and I called her and she came in to me, so I gave her some good scritches and she curled up on the couch when I was done.

Yay!! More progress!! Betcha she thinks the Pom is just a really fun bouncy toy. Our male bc is smitten with a boarder's Papillon & she's really the only visiting dog she plays with other than his bff Toby, who's also a border collie.

Fixerupper

Aug. 27, 2009, 11:24 PM

I have been following this thread for some time...and think that you have been doing a fabulous job with little feral Angel. You mentioned early on Caesar Millan...and I keep hearing his advice when reading your current posts...she needs more exercise. She has been on the move since she was a puppy and now she is expected to be a 'semi couch potato' like the ones that have been raised that way. She may never be like your other dogs but but she was a special case from the get-go. Moreover... we never have time for exercise until we make time ;)

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 28, 2009, 11:24 AM

I was thinking along the lines of exercise, all the dogs seem to self exercise, after breakfast in the morning Angel and the aussies go out front and run around and play fight for about an hour, then they all come in and sleep all day. Same routine after dinner, except play is split between the yard and the living room. Until I can teach her more about leash walking, etc. that is about as good as that gets. I do play with the dogs every evening, granted, not the same as taking an hour long walk in the neighborhood, but I hope it helps, and at the very least it helps with her confidence. For example, this week she started playing tug of war with me.

The other issue with not sleeping through the night might be two-fold, when she was living on her own outside, she might have been more active at night than during the day (based on the number of toys and trash that I had to pick up every day back then), and when I let her out last thing before bed, she does not always do her business, so I think she really does need to go out and pee at 3:30 AM (which was the wake-up nudge time this morning).

When I consider that she has only been a house dog for a month, all in all, her progress is pretty remarkable.

suze

Aug. 28, 2009, 02:42 PM

When I consider that she has only been a house dog for a month, all in all, her progress is pretty remarkable.

Remarkable? Uh . . . more like downright amazing. I think you're on the right track about her not really having any "hours" when she was on her own. She just peed whenever she felt like it. I still find it downright incredible that she came into the house mostly house trained as far as wanting out to go do her business.

starrysky

Aug. 28, 2009, 04:22 PM

It's more than remarkable - it's unbelievably amazing!

3Dogs

Aug. 28, 2009, 05:26 PM

aww, keep it coming. My favorite thread to check at the end of a long work week :lol: Always brings a big smile to my face!

what I know too is that dogs like routine -

I feed and walk around the same time everyday. Believe you me, if I am off the "schedule" by much, they let me know it :lol::lol::lol:

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 29, 2009, 10:54 AM

Thought I would post this while eating breakfast before I head out for my weekly trip to the feed store.

Angel managed to let us sleep until 6:30 this morning. Then at about 7:30 AM, the wild bedroom rumpus began. Mostly because my DH got up to open the bedroom door to let Murphy in before she dug a hole in the door. Now, I have been trying to tame her quietly in the morning so that perhaps my husband could sleep through it (like that would happen!). Well, this morning I sat up, and bellowed "TIME OUT!" The two aussies dropped like rocks, and I sort of pinned (without needed much pressure) Angel to the bed, and she calmed down pretty quickly. Then they all took the wild rumpus outside where it belongs. I need the aussies to understand that when I am working with Angel to get calm, that they don't need to help, since it appears that they are trying to help me, but it only makes matters worse.

They all played for about an hour and a 1/2 this morning, which may have helped with the arrival of Sadie (the pomeranian). When she got her at 9 AM, she jumped out of her carrier, and all the dogs were excited to see her, and she was excited to be here (she loves "sleep away camp" at our house because she gets to be a dog and to be with dogs). There was only two times where I was concerned, Angel did approach her with her hair up, and I again said firmly "NO" and had her lay down, which is not hard with a submissive dog luckily, and I caught it before it escalated. Then they all had their round of butt sniffing, and a good round of marking their territory on the front yard.

Angel spent the last hour sort of following Sadie around the house, more curious than anything else, and surprisingly Sadie seems to like her for whatever reason. As I was logging on, Sadie came in the office (she likes to be with me) and Angel came in whining - mabye because she wanted to play with Sadie. Actually, they are right now laying at my feet about a foot apart, and Angel is still whining and wagging her tail. Oh, they just got up, and Sadie snarled at Angel, had to nip that in the bud too. Sadie is funny, for 5 pounds of mostly fur, she get rather protective of whomever her human of the moment is. Well, it is not really funny, it was useful to keep the aussies in their place when they were puppies, but there is no need for snarling, from any dog in my house.

Well, I guess I will go put Sadie in protective custody with my MIL while I go to the feed store.

Now, here I was worried about having six dogs in the house, and on the front page of our paper was a story of a woman here in our tiny pin-dot-on-the-map town, where Animal Control found 432 animals of various species! I'll post that on a new thread so I don't de-rail this one.

JanM

Aug. 29, 2009, 11:04 AM

That's so adorable. I know why Angel had her hackles up-she never saw a moving chewy toy before. Poms don't look real to me either, and they're not dogs-they're actually 160 pounds of pure savagery in their own minds, and it certainly can get them in trouble.

Dune

Aug. 29, 2009, 11:17 AM

I think I'm missing something here, you live on a farm but all the dogs stay up at the house? :confused: Do they ever get to go with you as you do the horse duties? Do you ride/trailride? That would certainly help with the excess energy issue, running around in the yard a couple times a day is NOT gonna do it for most dogs and you seem to have some working breeds there. Everything else sounds miraculous, but I'm puzzled on this one part....

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 29, 2009, 12:29 PM

I know, weird to have house dogs on a farm. That is because other than Angel, they have always been house dogs. Murphy lived in suburbia in CT with us, Candy lived in a retirement community in south Florida with my in-laws, and the two aussies are terrified of the horses. Candy would love nothing more than to chase the horses, that is a giant vet bill waiting to happen. Murphy is also timid around the horses and barks at them when I have tried to take her to the barn. So, no, none of them come to the barn or in the field or on trail rides (which I don't do much of anymore anyway). They do have 1/2 acre of land to run on in the front yard, my husband takes 3 of the dogs walking around the yard (back yard) with him several times a day to let them explore, and our house is 4,000 sq ft of romping room. And they have a dog door so they can run in and out all day long.

And I honestly have not had the courage to take Angel to the barn off leash for fear that she might take off and not come back. I know, not likely to happen, but it would break my heart if it did. So until I can get her leash trained, which she is still terrified of, she too gets to be a house dog. Even when she was living outside, she spent most of her day sleeping under my horse trailer, it was not like she was running and hunting all day every day. This fall (when the weather cools down a bit) I will get my daughter and husband to work with me, and we can take 3 dogs for a walk around my neighborhood, which is a mile and half loop. I think that would help Angel learn about leash walking too.

As a matter of fact, right now they are all sacked out at various stations in the house, one in the bathroom, one in the kitchen, and four in my MIL's living room.

So, really, my only issue is the morning bedroom romp, only because I am getting lumped up being part of the wrestling mat for the dogs! I'm pretty confident that I can teach Angel just like I taught the other dogs that this is undesirable behavior. She has learned so much already in her short time being in the house, it is amazing.

OMG, this morning before I ran off to the feed store, I let the dogs out (because the pomeranian is too small to manage the dog door) and it was off to the races, and Angel leaped over a branch that was down in the yard, it took my breath away, she would probably make a great agility dog, seriously she is more agile than the aussies. And it fills me with joy to see her enjoying life now.

SevenDogs

Aug. 29, 2009, 11:30 PM

Not every dog is a barn dog. Same rescue german shepherd mix that I wondered if she would calm down before dying of old age -- took her to the barn (on a leash). Took her inside pasture (on said leash) where my horses were grazing. My old gelding walked up to her very slowly and put his head down towards her very kindly. ADD Dog didn't even notice, whirled around and smashed into gelding's head. Horse looked at me like "what the heck is this poor excuse for a barn dog?". She never got better and I stopped even trying.

I know when the time is right, Angel is going to be a great barn dog and it will be so fun for MM to have a "buddy" for her barn work.

MM: My dogs would be in heaven in your setup. Sounds like everyone is getting what they need and then some! Lucky, lucky dogs!!! :yes::):yes:

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 29, 2009, 11:53 PM

I have to tell you, my setup is a godsend! For the first year that we were here, we did not have the dog door, and I was getting much more than my fair share of exercise getting up and down from my office chair to let dogs in and out, in and out, all darned day long! And of course none of them were on the same schedule for the in and out, unless it was to go bark at a delivery person.

Angel seems to love the pom, she has been following her all over the house all day long, and whining, I think because she wants to play or something, not sure what. And Sadie (the pom) used to live with a giant rotweiler until he passed away at age 15 last year. So being with the "big dogs" does no seem to phase her at all.

Angel did something funny tonight, she was whining in my office, I though she wanted to play, so I went with her to the toy box, took out various toys, she perked up when I took out a tennis ball, so I rolled it across the floor, she nudged it a few times, then gently picked it up and carried it outside! Not sure where she put it, I'll find it in the morning I guess.

Oh, poor baby, I just had some sort of beetle flying around my office, so I grabbed a catalog to try to swat it, and Angel fled the room. Makes me think that she had been hit in her past.

Before I posted this, I let them all out for "last call" and after they all finished their duties, Angel took off across the lawn to the far side of the yard. I called Cubby to come help, and Cubby was too busy chasing a lizard on the wall, so I trudged out there, and as soon as I got close to Angel, she got up and sort of slunk away (like a flashback). This went on for a few minutes, then she raced back to the house ahead of me.

She's got the sit for a treat thing down pat now. after they all come back from last call, I give them all a treat, and this time Angel sat before I even said the word. She is a fast learner for sure.

And now all is peaceful, Angel is stretched out on the floor, Sadie is sacked out on the couch, and Murphy is in the doorway, all fast asleep.

onetrickpony

Aug. 30, 2009, 09:34 AM

and when I let her out last thing before bed, she does not always do her business, so I think she really does need to go out and pee at 3:30 AM (which was the wake-up nudge time this morning).

Why do you have to let her out if there is a dog door? And she's using it?

Great progress reports!

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 30, 2009, 01:55 PM

Why do you have to let her out if there is a dog door? And she's using it?

Let me explain. The dog door is in the glass (now plexiglass) front storm door, so at night when we go to bed, we close and lock the main door behind it, so while all humans are asleep, no intruders can get into the house, and the dogs cannot get out. That is the only downside, but because our house is cinderblock, there was no easy way to install the door anywhere else. Also, Murphy was born with pelvic bladder, which can cause her to wet the bed in her sleep, so as a precaution, before I go to bed and lock up for the night, I make sure Murphy goes out to pee. It just makes sense to also make all the other dogs go out and pee at the same time before we go to bed at night.

I did get a full night's sleep last night, I think the fact that Angel went out for the pee-fest (where they all take turns peeing on the same spot), and she had spent the better part of the day following the pomeranian from room to room, made her tired. She did get up once at 4:30, gave me a nudge, I told her go back to sleep, and amazingly she did! The bedroom rumpus didn't start until 7:10, so I got up and opened the dog door at that time. Guess my MIL was sleeping in also this morning, because usually she is up by then.

Now here was the funny part last night. Months ago before Angel became a house dog, I had bought a dog bed for Murphy, thinking she would like it, nope. Well, Angel likes it. So she has been sleeping in it. However, the pom used to sleep in it when she stayed over prior to Angel becoming a house dog also. So, bedtime rolls around, and Sadie plops herself in the dog bed, and Angel stands in the hallway glaring at her, and won't come into the bedroom. So I picked Sadie up, put her in the nice comfy chair in our room, and Angel quickly re-claimed her bed.

Fixerupper

Aug. 30, 2009, 11:48 PM

I did get a full night's sleep last night, I think the fact that Angel went out for the pee-fest (where they all take turns peeing on the same spot), and she had spent the better part of the day following the pomeranian from room to room, made her tired.

Excellent :yes:....but now you need to get a Pomeranian :no:

:lol:

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 31, 2009, 01:15 AM

Excellent :yes:....but now you need to get a Pomeranian :no:

:lol:

Oh Lord, that would just about send me over the edge! :winkgrin: Angel was a bit less attentive to Sadie today, but there were still a few whining sessions.

I have to figure out where to put Sadie to sleep, my husband took the chair out of the bedroom and put it back in his office. Maybe an old large bed pillow will serve as a substitute dog bed for tonight for Sadie.

Right now Angel is on the couch in the living room, Sadie is on my office couch, Murphy is on the floor in the hallway, and Cubby is curled up with my DH in bed.

Angel and the aussies had a really good long romp session after dinner tonight, and all this exercise is good for all 3 dogs.

vineyridge

Aug. 31, 2009, 11:48 AM

When you do get ready to leash train her, may I suggest using a prong collar rather than a choke collar. I hate choke collars, but prong collars seem to me to be much more humane, since the dog's own weight brings the prongs into play. IMO, choke collars are evil for non-leash trained dogs.

Second the idea of trying clicker training on Angel. It's all positive reinforcement, so whatever bad experiences she has had will not be called back up.

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 31, 2009, 12:01 PM

Because of her unknown past issues, I was just going to work with her flat collar, and lots of treats (yup, been watching a bit of Victoria Stillwell recently), since her main issue is that as soon as you snap the leash on, she drops to the ground as if she has been shot. Trying to make leash walking be a positive experience.

Just like when she lived outside, she is making baby step progress every day. She was really good this morning, the 6:10 AM wake up nudge was very calm and ladylike, and an hour later she did jump into the bed and start rolling around on my head, so I calmly got up and made her get on the floor, and then I laid back down and petted her while she was quiet next to the bed. I think the other thing that helped was that Cubby didn't feel the need to "help" this morning, probably because my energy told her that I had it all under control (in other words, I as not stressed or annoyed). Cubby did pick her head up and watch what I was doing, but that was all.

I'm not sure where Sadie slept last night, maybe she stayed on my office couch. Angel got right into her dog bed asap to claim her territory. The novelty seems to have worn off, because Angel is now asleep here in my office on the floor, and Sadie is at the other end of the house with my MIL.

All is quiet in my peaceful animal kingdom right now.

lcw579

Aug. 31, 2009, 12:02 PM

All these early morning wake up calls make me grateful that my lazy dogs sleep later than the humans! :yes:

I like a harness for leash training. Our rescue mutt could slip any collar and tried to slip the harness but it was harder to do - especially as he gained weight in a happy home. He was submissive too and would just lay down and we'd have to give a few tugs to get him going again. He's short but not small so he weighs about as much as Angel so I feel your pain (literally) when you have to resort to picking her up!

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 31, 2009, 12:06 PM

The harness is here on my bookshelf, I'm working on body desensitization before I try to put it on her, even the act of taking her collar on and off makes her drop to the floor and cower. Really makes me wonder what happened to this poor girl before she appeared here in the neighborhood. But I agree, I figure the harness will give me a better chance of getting her to stand back up.

LOL - I still have a scab on my knuckle where I scraped it from picking her up off the sidewalk at the vet's office last week.

lcw579

Aug. 31, 2009, 12:14 PM

MunchkinsMom

Aug. 31, 2009, 01:52 PM

Duncan will still inexplicably drop to the ground sometimes - especially when trying to get him back in the car to leave his granny's house where it is fun & treats all the time - and refuse to get back up. We don't have the harness on him anymore (he's actually too fat! :lol:) sometimes if I put the leash on and pull he'll get up and just hop in the car other times he'll just let himself be dragged until the collar pops off. He smiles goofily the whole time. He seems to know that the next step is that I will have to pick him up like a baby and carry him to the car where the other poor dog is waiting rolling her eyes. No fear involved anymore - he's turned it into a game - a very annoying game!

Sounds like a kid that doesn't want to leave the amusement park! Angel does something similar in the yard, instead of coming when called, she lays down. That is when I get the aussies to go round her up and bring her in. Probably not the best idea in the world, since it then becomes a game for her, but it gives the aussies a job, and they love that, especially Cubby, who has more herding instinct than Jenna does.

jetsmom

Aug. 31, 2009, 02:47 PM

MunchkinsMom

Sep. 1, 2009, 06:04 PM

When you are around to supervise, can you put a leash and flat collar on her and let her just drag it around and step on it. I'd even put it on before feeding/giving treats, so she learns it's not a big deal. Or put it on, put her in the car and drive over to the barn and take her out. Let her choose where to go, and you follow. Have high value treats to lure her back to the house or car.

Don't leave the leash on unsupervised, as you don't want to have her get caught on something and strangle. Or have one of the other dogs get tangled in it and strangle.

Good advice, thanks! Sounds like I need to stock up on the prime rib again :D

I have to tell you. Tonight after dinner, I went out front with the dogs to round up all the toys that they bring outside. One of which was the tennis ball that Angel took out after I tossed it for her in the house. Well. . . we had a great game of fetch, and this time a real game of fetch, she was actually bringing the ball back to me, and I was not even calling her! I was dumbfounded!

She is hands down the most athletic dog I have ever owned, this morning, she jumped into bed, and managed to leap not only onto the bed, but cleared my DH's prone body to boot. When I saw her launch herself, I thought for sure that she would land on him, but she had so much energy in the jump, it was amazing.

He is also becoming quite the chow-hound, she is like a bottomless pit! Definitely making up for lost time.

suze

Sep. 2, 2009, 01:18 AM

MunchkinsMom

Sep. 2, 2009, 05:03 PM

Well, Sadie (the pomeranian) went back home an hour ago, let's see if Angel stops whining so much.

She is doing very well, although all 5 dogs are sulking because it is raining outside. Funny how poor little Angel lived out in the rain for all that time, and now is like the rest of the dogs and not liking it very much.

MHM

Sep. 2, 2009, 05:38 PM

Funny how poor little Angel lived out in the rain for all that time, and now is like the rest of the dogs and not liking it very much.

Well, she has been a fast learner about everything else involved in being a house dog. Why not that, too? :lol:

EponaRoan

Sep. 3, 2009, 01:32 AM

Funny how poor little Angel lived out in the rain for all that time, and now is like the rest of the dogs and not liking it very much.

She has a choice now. :winkgrin::yes:

MunchkinsMom

Sep. 3, 2009, 05:35 PM

Here is another sign of domestication. I had a 15 pound bag of food that I had bought for her before we caught her. It is not what I feed the other dogs. So, in order to use it up, I have been mixing the two foods. Well, Angel will pick around in her bowl, and only eat the expensive stuff, and then whine because she wants the good stuff. All the other dogs eat whatever is in the bowl!

She is getting a little better every day about the romp in the room morning activities, and she now sits regularly when asked (both with and without treats).

MunchkinsMom

Sep. 4, 2009, 04:01 PM

Angel's favorite thing now is to go outside and lay on the front steps of the house. And to romp in the yard with the other dogs. She still whines occasionally, not sure what she is trying to tell me (bored vs hungry?) when she does that.

I'm going to try to take advantage of the long weekend and get some leash training in. She is getting much better about coming when called, but not 100% consistantly yet.

I ran into one of my other neighbors yesterday at the grocery store, and we chatted a bit, she was so happy to hear how well Angel is adapting to home life, and how wonderful it is that she has a home and is loved and well cared for.

Blacklabs

Sep. 5, 2009, 10:56 AM

Once again thanks for the updates and so glad she is doing so well.

llsc

Sep. 8, 2009, 11:25 AM

Any new Angel updates?

MHM

Sep. 8, 2009, 12:20 PM

Any new Angel updates?

With pictures??

starrysky

Sep. 9, 2009, 02:29 PM

Yes! We still check in for our Angel updates! Don't leave us hanging, MM! :)

MunchkinsMom

Sep. 9, 2009, 11:38 PM

Sorry about that, it has been a tough week at work, and then evenings spent running my daughter around town for her various activities.

And Angel has been really, really good. This weekend I actually overslept because she didn't come bounce off my head. She is learning to be a bit better in the morning.

Although just now she suddenly became a bit skittish when my daughter came out of her room, and has been slinking around. So, occasionally she reverts, and I have not figured out what triggers it.

Remember when I first brought her home and was worried about our rhody/boxer cross, Candy? Well, now they are best friends, and Angel will whine and carry on to try to get Candy to play with her. She also comes and cries and grumbles to me if none of the other dogs will play with her, it is like the youngest child complaining that none of the big kids will play.

Now, if I could just teach her to keep her big feet to herself. When she gets excited, she swipes at my legs with her paws, not jumping up, just swiping. I have all these red racing stripes on my legs because of it. And she is fast, usually I can read the dog body language and try to head it off at the pass, but she is quick!

I'll try to get more pictures in the next few days.

She is learning the routine, understands when I say "lets go to bed" and follows me to the bedroom, and curls up in the dog bed.

SevenDogs

Sep. 10, 2009, 12:02 AM

She is learning the routine, understands when I say "lets go to bed" and follows me to the bedroom, and curls up in the dog bed.

Just warms my heart! :yes: :) :yes:

harveyhorses

Sep. 10, 2009, 09:08 AM

Thanks for the updates. Remember a few scant months ago, when you were so tickled you actually touched her??
She has come so far so fast, I am sure she will figure out the swipe thing too, but she is like an excited child, knows (or is learning) the rules, but forgets when she gets really happy. :D
Glad she and Candy are friends, it sounds like your pack is pretty peaceful.

lovemyoldguy

Sep. 10, 2009, 10:30 AM

MM, this is still one of my all-time favorite threads! Thanks for the taking the time to update it...I love following Angel's progress. Almost impossible to believe that just a few short months ago, you couldn't really get near her - now you're Mommy!

MunchkinsMom

Sep. 10, 2009, 04:04 PM

Aww, and I was thinking the honeymoon was over for this thread! Thanks.

Well, I jinxed myself, she gave me a good swat to the head in bed this morning at 7 AM - the time was fine, but not the head smack. I tell you, she is the smallest dog in my pack, but she has the biggest feet! What is funny is when I say loudly "Angel - NO", Cubby comes to my rescue, and before I know it there is a free-for-all going on until I yell "TIME OUT!"

She also has the funniest deep voice, I swear her voice range is 3 octaves, from a high pitch whine to a very deep growly voice. And it really is as if she is trying to talk. I thought the aussies were good talkers, but she has them beat in that department too.

I have tried to play fetch in the house with tennis balls, but as soon as she fetches it, she takes it outside. Not sure what is up with that.

She still drops and cowers at any pressure on her collar, so leash training is not going well. Now, what is funny is that Cubby can grab her by the collar and drag her around, and that is not an issue. But if I even slightly tug on it, she just cowers. Angel has also learned to sit down as soon as one of the Aussies goes for her rear legs.

Right now all 4 dogs are taking turns tagging me, it is 4 PM, which is feeding time at the zoo, and my MIL who usually feeds is at work, so I am next in line for room service.

Reds-n-Greys

Sep. 10, 2009, 04:19 PM

Just so happy! Love this thread! And am looking forward to the book...... thanks for keeping us up to date!

starrysky

Sep. 10, 2009, 04:22 PM

Thanks for the updates! I still check this thread every day to see what's new with Angel! I'd be so sad if the updates completely dried up - but I can understand that now Angel is so good that she doesn't need so many "can you believe this happened" type of posts!

FalseImpression

Sep. 10, 2009, 08:36 PM

There are still lots of updates to come... Angel's first walk outside the yard, Angel's first off leash outing, Angel's first visit to the barn and to the horses, Angel's first play date with the GSD puppy, Angel's first fun ride in the truck... no way the updates can or will dry up!!!!;)

3horsemom

Sep. 10, 2009, 08:42 PM

also still following angels's story. it is an amazing turn of events. dogs are amazing creatures!

MunchkinsMom

Sep. 13, 2009, 04:36 PM

We had a really good weekend sleep-wise. Angel is learning to come into the bed to snuggle instead of romping, pouncing and swatting.

Have not done any leash training, she is still acting very scared if I even just put any pressure on her collar, so I'm doing the "baby steps" thing with the collar first.

She has learned that the dog brush is a good thing, she was a little leery of it at first, but watching me brush the other dogs helps.

She just loves to play with Candy, because Candy doesn't keep grabbing her rear legs or tail like the aussies do.

She is still a bit strange late at night, she will go out and lay on the far side of the yard, and I have to go out with Cubby to bring her in, she won't come when I call her. She will come in if she is on the front steps and I call her.

allpurpose

Sep. 13, 2009, 05:13 PM

What if you trained her using a harness or a "haltie" type device (goes over their head and muzzle rather than around the neck). Here's a picture: http://www.ciao.co.uk/Halti_Dog_Collars__Review_5028538

I just keep thinking that if she's scared to death about any pressure around her neck, put the pressure somewhere else?? Just a thought...

MunchkinsMom

Sep. 13, 2009, 09:27 PM

That is a thought, I also have a harness that I have not tried to put on her yet. Right now I am just doing my best to get her desensitized to any activity around her neck, sometimes she even begins to cower if I am just scratching her neck. Poor little girl, no idea what happened to her before she showed up in our neighborhood.

I just informed one of my other neighbors about Angel living in the house now, he has been away for work and was not up to date on the news. He was very happy to hear how well she has adjusted to being a house dog.

suze

Sep. 14, 2009, 12:11 PM

About time we got an update -thanks! She's really settled in. I second the harness idea. Just for fun, I went and read your first post about Angel & this sentence stuck out:
I don't think she would ever be happy as a house dog,
Gotta say I disagree with your original assessment!

MunchkinsMom

Sep. 14, 2009, 01:15 PM

About time we got an update -thanks! She's really settled in. I second the harness idea. Just for fun, I went and read your first post about Angel & this sentence stuck out:

Gotta say I disagree with your original assessment!

I know, I marvel at that ever single day, that I really mis-read her on that one! I do think that it helps that we have the dog door, so she can come and go as she pleases for 17 hours a day, and doesn't feel trapped -well this house is big enough that none of us feels trapped anyway.

She still complains if none of the other dogs will play with her, it is too funny. Once in a while one of the other dogs will come out to see what the heck she is griping about, and she can entice them to play.

What warms my heart the most is watching her sleep on the couch, and how she wags her tail every time I walk by, whether I talk to her or not, I think she is just happy knowing I am here.

lcw579

Sep. 16, 2009, 12:38 PM

Just wanted to add my voice to the chorus that still checks in on Angel everyday!

We still need to hear about her first trip back to the barn. I bet your horses will be happy to have their old playmate pay them a visit.

MunchkinsMom

Sep. 16, 2009, 01:24 PM

We still need to hear about her first trip back to the barn. I bet your horses will be happy to have their old playmate pay them a visit.

That might take a while until I am satisfied that she is leashed trained, and will come on command in case she gets loose. She still has moments where she reverts back to feral mode. For example, the other night Cubby pulled Angel's collar off while playing. Luckily it was in the house and not out in the yard at night, which is typically what happens when one of them comes back in "nekkid". However, when I went to put it back on Angel, she freaked and ran out the dog door. I had to put away the collar and entice her into the house with Pupperoni (fondly known now as "stinky treats"). Then I closed the door so she could not get out, and I still had to corner her to get it back on, even trying to get her to eat a treat to associate the collar with good things didn't work, she was having none of that. So I think getting a harness on her will be even more of a challenge.

I do have to remind myself that it has not been all that long, I have a lot of bad associations to undo for her, which will take time.

Also, my neighbor and I agreed that right now is most likely too soon for a reunion with Zack (the GSD puppy "bait"), because they are still working on his obedience training, which is going better without the temptation of running to my place looking for Angel. His owners told me that he still looks over our way all the time looking for her.

This morning she decided to lay on top of me again while I was sleeping. Sort of hard to sleep while there is a live panting 45 pound dog laying on you. But better to lay on me than to beat me up! So she is making progress there. And when she and Cubby did decide to romp on the bed, I shouted "TIME OUT!" and they both lept off the bed and went outside to play. In my house the bed is for sleeping, not playing.

I just came in from my lunchtime barn chores, and Angel greets me at the door, wiggling her whole body and singing to me. What a good dog she is.

MHM

Sep. 16, 2009, 01:35 PM

His owners told me that he still looks over our way all the time looking for her.

Aww. Poor puppy. :sadsmile:

Glad Angel is doing well!

My2cents

Sep. 16, 2009, 02:10 PM

How about putting a harness on her with a short leash attached, long enough to get tugged and stepped on. She would get used to feelings of the tug without having a person attached to the leash. Kind of like the way some people 'gentle' mustangs. Obviously, if the other dogs can pull her by the collar, it isn't the collar but the human contact. You could also do the clicker stuff. You have come sooo far with her. I'm one of the daily 'checker upperers'
on the Angel saga.

MunchkinsMom

Sep. 17, 2009, 08:36 PM

First I need to get the harness on her, not an easy task with how scared she is when I have to put the collar over her head. So for now we are back to baby steps like we did when she was wild.

We are having a night time t-storm, and I thought Angel was still outside in it, she manages to sneak in and out of the dog door without my hearing her (unlike my other 4 dogs). So I went to the door, called her, and her head popped up from the couch! Silly girl. I do think she likes being in the house when the weather is nasty, and it is really pouring out there.

Should be interesting this weekend, my in-laws are going to visit family for the weekend, so I will have all 5 dogs jockeying for sleeping space all weekend.

Jaegermonster

Sep. 17, 2009, 08:48 PM

I still check in on Angel almost every day, and I have to say that I needed a little good news today

I'm glad she is doing so well :)

kdow

Sep. 17, 2009, 09:49 PM

That is a thought, I also have a harness that I have not tried to put on her yet. Right now I am just doing my best to get her desensitized to any activity around her neck, sometimes she even begins to cower if I am just scratching her neck. Poor little girl, no idea what happened to her before she showed up in our neighborhood.

I know a lot of people don't like to treat train, but I'm wondering if you'd have any luck with her if you put a leash on her and then didn't pull at all, just let it hang slack, and tempted her to move forward with you on the leash with some kind of super tasty treat.