Making friends with a stray dog - New House PICS page 61! [Archive] - Page 4

fivehorses

Jun. 9, 2009, 11:17 AM

YEAH!!!!
I also want to mention, screw the rules of your deed restricted community.
If its anything like mine, everyone breaks the rules...some worse than others.
The only way to enforce is to take someone to court. We don't have a HOA that enforces things. For a rule follower like me, it seems wrong, but heck, I guess that is how much of the world lives, ignoring the rules. In Angel's case, she and you have earned the right imo to push the rule.

Having an extra dog seems like no biggie, plus, she really has been yours for quite awhile, and no one seems upset.

I am really happy for you and Angel, I see her sleeping in the house one day, don't buy a dog house, if she wants, she can always find shelter in the barn. Spend your money on other things.

Good for you. I wish there were many more folks like you out there.

starrysky

Jun. 9, 2009, 11:30 AM

Another addicted obsessive thread checker here as well saying

CONGRATS MM & Angel!!!!!!! :D

DITTO! This is the great news that we all have been waiting for! Can't wait to hear more :D

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 9, 2009, 12:13 PM

Awww, you guys are the best. I'm sure that all the collective wishes of the COTH community helped with our progress.

This morning she didn't seem to want to be petted, but she did calmly eat from my hand, and come in the tack room to eat, and only scurried once when I had to go back into the tack room to get the fly spray. (Which I wish I could use on her.

She did chew up another fly mask, my bad, I am going to have to be more diligent about not leaving them on the hooks, it is just hard to break a 5 year habit.

Right now she is sleeping under the Jeep in the yard again, I'll bring out a few puppy biscuits when I go give the horses lunch, and see if she wants to make more contact or not.

It is soooo hard not to push her, but I know from experience that will set her back, so I must be patient.

Jetsmom, I wish she had given me the amazed look, it really was more like a look of submission than amazement yet, it broke my heart to think that perhaps she never had experienced any kind touching in her past. But I will change that.

fivehorses, I am on the board of directors in our HOA, so that might earn me a few brownie points, and this rule has merit, but this is an exceptional case. I managed to get on the board because of issues we had in the past (which amazes me, we only have 22 lots here, and 17 owners, and we fight like lunatics over the stupidest things), I figured I could either just sit back and complain, or be proactive and see what I could do to change the process.

And yes, since everyone in the 'hood here is rooting for me to "tame" her, I don't think they will complain.

VWBug

Jun. 9, 2009, 01:09 PM

I haven't checked in for a few days and missed the big moment! I got terribly misty when I read about it though, and of course did the happy butt rooo roooo dance. CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR NEW DOG! :)

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 9, 2009, 01:18 PM

Damn, it's hot out today! Angel is laying in the shade under the Jeep (not on asphalt, on white gravel). She did come out, gave me a little whine and wag, took the puppy biscuit, and spit it out. I think she is just too hot to eat.

I brought her a bucket of water that I put in the shade near the Jeep, so that she does not have to travel far to drink.

And no, she didn't want to be petted right now, maybe, just maybe tonight. Lord give me patience!

Reds-n-Greys

Jun. 9, 2009, 02:16 PM

OMG!!!! I'm sooooo glad to be home alone so I can be doing the happy doggie butt dance without embarassing my children!!!!! I'm so proud of you MM!!!!! I'm so proud of Angel for accepting you as her person!!!!!! What a brave little girl!

WOOOO HOOO!!!!!

bumknees

Jun. 9, 2009, 05:04 PM

I sat and read the entire thread this afternoon.. What a wonderful story and a wonderful dog.

3horsemom

Jun. 9, 2009, 05:47 PM

congratulations to you both, mm. i knew that i would get all teary eyed when this happened. of course i happen to be sitting in a hotel lobby when i thought to check this thread!
cannot wait to see pictures of angel stretched out on your sofa!!

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 9, 2009, 08:26 PM

Well, I think it will be a while before she sits on my couch. There was no petting today :no:.

But, in an effort to find something positive I will tell you a cute story. It was very hot today, so I decided to hose off the horses before they ate. I put them in their stalls, gave Angel a few bits of food (she was back under the horse trailer at this point), and started to hose the horses one at a time. Angel layed near us, watching the whole thing, thinking it was very entertaining. As I was hosing the last horse, she came to drink from the puddle.

After the horses were done, I set up the hose so she could play in it, and fed the horses, and applied various ointments to all their spots that they have started to rub raw due to the damned gnats. She did play in the hose, and then came back to watch me.

Next step was to fly spray the horses again before turnout, and I noticed that my older gelding had rolled in his stall and was covered in shavings. So I grabbed a brush and the fly spray. I put the brush down in the aisle while I was spraying my younger horse, and Angel came in to sniff the brush. Then she picked it up - I said, "Angel, no, drop it" like I would with the house dogs, and she looked at me, and trotted outside with the brush.

It was too hot to play fetch tonight, so I took on the chore of mowing part of the pasture. The whole time I was mowing, Angel layed next to the barn watching me.

When I finished, I parked the tractor, and went to find Angel to see if she wanted to play, and the little stinker had disappeared again. I called her and she didn't come, so I came up to the house to make dinner, and as soon as I got to the house, she reappeared. So I took Murphy into the back yard to see if it would entice Angel to come to the fence again, but nope, not tonight. I made sure to scratch Murphy all over so that Angel could see what fun it was.

Oh, I tried something again tonight. Because Angel seemed a bit reluctant to eat from my hand tonight, I took about 5 minutes and sat on the barn post with a treat in my hands. Angel just layed there like the Sphinx, not looking at me. I'm telling you, this dog has the patience of Job!

So, the ball is in her court again.

fivehorses

Jun. 10, 2009, 10:45 AM

I am so thrilled with Angel's progress.
Not being a dog expert, at some point, should she 'earn' her treats. In other words, she does something, she gets rewarded. Not sure if that would work, but wondering.
I also think from experience with my rescue pony, Rosie, that the do something, reward doesn't work. It is bribe me with a treat, and then I will do something for you.
I think animals are as complicated as humans, maybe more so, since we can't ask them and have them respond, at least not in english!
I am rooting for you, and I think this has to make a great book.

fivehorses

Jun. 10, 2009, 10:48 AM

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 10, 2009, 12:33 PM

Oh, and I wanted to mention. good for you for being on the HOA.
Just be aware, some folks get jealous or have an issue when covenants are changed or proposed to be changed. It makes no sense to me, but I have seen junior high behavior when this kind of thing happens.

Thanks, and yes, even with only 17 owners in the whole association, every little thing gets made into a major production. So, for the time being, unless someone makes a stink, I am going to just sit back and say nothing. I could write a whole book on the lunacy of HOA's just based on my 5 years here!

Dealing with Angel, and trying to earn her trust is really a learning experience for me. In some ways she acts just like any other domestic dog, yet there is still so much fear to overcome.

Last night at fly mask removal, she was laying in the field, so I played fetch with her for a bit, which she seems to enjoy up to a point. For example, when I brought the toy out, she did the happy dog paw-swiping dance, I wiggled the toy on the ground right over her paws to see if she would try to grab it, but she would not, so I tossed it, she "fetched" and then played keep away. I try not to chase her while she is running away, because then she scoots under the fence with the toy, and game over.

This morning she came right to the barn when I called her for breakfast, but was a little whiney about taking food from my hand - which she did, but reluctantly.

She loves the new Blue Seal dog food, guess that will be on my shopping list this weekend. She does come in to eat that, and eats it in the barn while I am there.

Not sure where she is right now, hopefully trying to stay cool under the horse trailer.

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 10, 2009, 10:14 PM

Tonight Angel was not at the barn, but when I called her - just like I call the horses, saying "Aaaannnggeelll, diiinnneeer, cooommmeee ooonnnn!" she came running from the front corner of the field.

But she is maintaining the status quo - she will take a few bits of food from my hand and then stops (probably because it is not steak). She did play in the water from the hose, and I think she wanted to play, because I went out to pick up her toys, and as I was coming back to the barn she started to whine. I told her it was too hot to run and maybe we would play later.

I also stopped at the fenceline to tell my neighbor the news about petting her on Monday. He did say that it was a good idea to have me do all the feeding and interaction, since she seems to be making progress. He did tell me that he has seen her in my back yard, laying in the shade under the trampoline, and that one day when I went across the street to help another neighbor round up her loose ponies, that Angel followed me across the street, and went into the alleyway between the two properties, and was watching me from there.

After that I had my own dinner and had to run out to town to get a humane mouse trap, evidently the mouse from the porch got into the house, and was in my trash can in my office today. As I was getting into the truck, Angel was laying in the field, but right next to the fence.

When I came back, I went to take fly masks off, and Angel was stretched out sleeping in the pasture. She did wake up, but didn't want to play, which was okay, since it is the time of day when the bugs get a bit active.

I'll keep it up, and keep you all up to date, in case she changes her mind and wants to be petted again. Maybe tomorrow, we had pork chops for dinner :D.

Singer

Jun. 11, 2009, 10:59 AM

I love this thread and I am patiently waiting for the book to come out.

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 11, 2009, 11:15 AM

Interesting busy morning at the barn today.

First, I went down with the leftovers, pork chops were a hit, but not enough for petting (and yes, I tried, she jumped away :sadsmile:).

Then after feeding the horses, I noticed one of my other neighbors out in her gator with her dog. Angel went out barking with her guard dog voice, and actually went to the fence to check it out. I went out to chat with the neighbor to find out what happened with the stray that she called me about on Sunday. Turns out that one belongs to the huge farm across the street, so at least that one got home ok.

The whole time we were chatting, Angel just sat and watched. Partially because my neighbor had her dog riding in the cart with her.

Oh, I also had to get the newspapers out of the drainage swale while I was there. And, there might be more soon, apparently inside the 'hood, there were reports of suspicious activity inside, and the only gate code being used at that time was the one given to the newspaper delivery folks, so that code was deactivated, and the paper people had to leave the papers in a pile outside the gate. And we know how much Angel loves fetching the newspaper for me!

Then the blacksmith arrived with his big rottie in tow. Angel watched from the other side of the barn for a few minutes, then went to the fenceline to lay in the shade of the fence and still keep an eye on the activities in the barn.

An hour later, the blacksmith leaves, and Angel comes right back to the barn. She was nosing around in the barn, picked up a bit of hoof trimming and took it outside. But before she did that, she spent a few minutes sniffing the ground where the rottie had been laying.

So, for today's progress, I will say that she more readily comes into the barn while I am there, and not always for food is a good thing.

Rancher

Jun. 11, 2009, 11:45 AM

I actually just found this thread and I just want to say how happy I am that you have stuck it out with her and she seems to be really coming along.

I noticed before that you had said something about a dog house. I really don't think she would use it if you bought one. A dog like that (skittish and 'wild') will not go into something where they can't see what is coming. They wont take a chance of being trapped. Maybe just a roof with two walls would work.

I agree with the people that are suggesting that she 'earn' the treats. She clearly knows you wont hurt her (you pet her already) so I wouldn't give her a treat until my hand brushed her fur or something like that. Right now if she scampers off and acts silly she still gets a treat. Soon you will be petting her all the time!

Blacklabs

Jun. 11, 2009, 12:01 PM

As always love to read the adventures of Angel. Thanks for sharing her with us. ;)

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 11, 2009, 12:48 PM

I noticed before that you had said something about a dog house. I really don't think she would use it if you bought one. A dog like that (skittish and 'wild') will not go into something where they can't see what is coming. They wont take a chance of being trapped. Maybe just a roof with two walls would work.

I agree with the people that are suggesting that she 'earn' the treats. She clearly knows you wont hurt her (you pet her already) so I wouldn't give her a treat until my hand brushed her fur or something like that. Right now if she scampers off and acts silly she still gets a treat. Soon you will be petting her all the time!

I agree, I put the dog house idea on the way back burner (actually, took it off the stove altogether), for those very reasons. Heck, if she feels trapped in my tack room, she won't go in a dog house.

She no longer gets a treat if she backs away, if she starts that, then the food goes with me into the barn, and she will have to follow me into the barn to get it. So, she does have to earn it at this point.

This morning I did not toss the beggin strip for her, I placed it in the barn aisle, where she had to deal with my presence to get it, and she did.

I do a lot of thinking about this. Today's thought is that she needs to be exposed to more of my interactions with other dogs, and maybe that will trigger her to understand the whole concept. For example, taking Murphy to where Angel can see me interacting with her. She did watch today as I gave treats to the blacksmith's dog, and petted and fussed over him.

But of course it needs to be within her comfort zone. i know she is comfortable watching my other dogs through the fence, and that will have to do for now.

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 12, 2009, 11:22 AM

My mother in law told me that when she came home last night, that Angel was out near the main road at the end of our driveway. I hope she was not looking for me, since I had to go to an awards banquet. At any rate, my mother in law called her, and she did come up the driveway a little way, even close to the howling house dogs (which didn't seem to phase Angel). My mother in law was worried that she might get hit by a car. I said, well, she has managed to dogde them so far, so we just will have to trust her guardian angels to keep her safe for now.

This morning was the typical Friday AM rush, and sure enough, one of the neighbor's newspapers was strewn about in the pasture. I was hand feeding Angel when my neighbor rode by on her horse, she stopped to watch, and as soon as she did that, Angel spotted her and would not eat from my hand after that. So I walked out to chat over the fence, and Angel came around to that side of the barn to watch and wait.

She did eat from my hand in the barn this morning, but she was whining about it - more of her internal argueing with herself I think.

And when I went out to pick up the papers and the toys, she came out with me.

She still won't let me pet her again, so I need to go back into patience mode again.

Calamber

Jun. 12, 2009, 11:33 AM

I do not mean to be a party pooper, but I would do all that I could, including trapping her in the tack room, noosing her and getting her to a vet to get spayed and vaccinated. All of this is nice, but she could very well lose her life having puppies some where else, since they sometimes den up for days she could be suffering and dying; she also could bring rabies to your barn. If you do not want to do it because of the trust matter, get someone else (a veteran dog rescuer could do it, I could if I were closer) and get her taken in to get her vetting done. Then you can keep her kenneled until she is safely healed. This is far too much risk. I do not know if you are aware but some areas are endemic for rabies, not something that is published in the paper but nevertheless is the case. I fear for all of your safety and for Angel's health. Her taming could take better than a year to accomplish without stress, if she tangles with a sick animal you will lose her anyway, and, there will be that overwhelming fear for your own, your neighbors and your other animals safety. Been there, done this.

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 12, 2009, 11:40 AM

Evidently you did not read this whole thread, we had AC out with traps for 3 months, tried tranq's to get her caught (7 times - unsuccessful), and we even had AC out with the tranq guns. Angel managed to outsmart them all.

Yes, we are 100% aware of the health issues, which is why we are doing all we can to get her caught, and vet attention. The vet is also on board with this (she has been consulted, and supplies the tranq's, heatwork, flea meds).

I have looked into the oral rabies vaccine that they use on wild animals and will talk to the vet about it tomorrow when I stop in to pick up supplies for all the dogs here.

Sorry if that sounded snippy on my part, I have been very frustrated by how hard and long it is taking us to be able to get Angel the necessary health work done. Dealing with a frightened and possibly abused dog can be so hard.

3horsemom

Jun. 12, 2009, 12:57 PM

you know i was thinking that perhaps angel is a 2nd or even 3rd generation feral dog. i thought your description of what happened when you petted her was very interesting. perhaps it is not that angel has never known a kind hand it is that she has never known a hand at all and therefore has no need nor no use for human interaction. she rewarded you with letting you pet her but it was just not that big of a deal to her.
after hurricane camille(the katrina of the day) my uncle rode the storm out in his boathouse and spent the night with an injured stray who delivered puppies shortly after the storm. the mom and all the puppies but one died. my uncle kept the survivor and named her fluff. fluff remained cautious and wary until the day she died even tho she was around family and was always loved. my uncle was the only person to whom she responded. we always imagined that fluff's mom was wild and that was imprinted on fluff from the get-go.

Blacklabs

Jun. 12, 2009, 02:07 PM

Keep up the good work MM, disregard suggestions that have all ready been tried.

You know what's best for her. :)

Calamber you might want to read the thread from the beginning, many things have been tried already.MM is very patiently earning her trust so she can take care of some your concerns and do what's best for Angel.

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 12, 2009, 02:16 PM

That is an interesting point, and maybe possible, but would a feral dog even attempt to make friends with humans? I honestly don't know.

What I do know is that when she showed up last year, the other dog that she was with was an adult female, with a raggedy collar on - Angel was a younger pup (about 3-4 months old is my guess) without a collar. Neither dog would come near us, but when the other dog was trapped, she turned out to be very friendly once she was trapped, and was adopted out (hopefully to a good home). So I don't even know if she was a pup of the adult female, or just a "friend" and if they were raised together, or hooked up out in the "wild" somewhere. Short of getting an animal psychic out here (and trust me, I have tossed that idea around in desperation) I might never know.

I do agree, that Angel might never truely trust too many humans, I hope over time to change that.

EponaRoan

Jun. 12, 2009, 04:23 PM

Her behavior in soliciting play with MM & being talky makes me think that she is not the product of ferals. Undersocialized, yes, but not feral - she craves the contact but fears it.

thinkrain

Jun. 12, 2009, 05:28 PM

Hi

I am by nature a lurker and have followed this thread since day one. I love it and well know your frustrations. I am temporarily de-lurking to share my feral dog story. Don't know if it will help you any but hoping it will help ease the frustration.

My dog John was pulled out from under a trailer at the local stockyard. No one seemed to know how he got there. He was about 10 weeks old. Took him home to live with my other two dogs. Dogs lived inside and outside on my small farm. John got along great with the other dogs. From the very beginning he was a VERY shy thing with me. No amount of cuddling helped him. When inside I could pet him pretty much as I pleased and he even slept on the bed with me. But outside I could not get within 2 feet of him. The only way he would come inside was if I held the door and stood way back. He would whine and dance and finally dash inside after the other dogs. Once there he was okay. He never asked for attention but was willing to appease me. Surprisingly he was his most affectionate on a leash. In 10 years I never touched him outside.

One day I read about "stalking". So, to my great regret I tried it. It was a complete disaster and I was afraid I would never see him again. To this day (30 years ago) I am ashamed of that day. He did come back and we went on as before.

John gave me all that he could. It was a frustrating life at times for both of us but it was our life and I cherish the memory.

Keep up the great work and thanks so much for sharing your journey!

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 12, 2009, 06:42 PM

thinkrain, thank you so much for sharing that. It is sort of comforting to know that not all dog/human relationships are the same, that each person and dog is an individual, and not all march to the same beat.

And I agree that "stalking" does not work, my neighbor tried that a few months back when Angel was still coming onto her property for food, and it did cause a major setback in how Angel viewed interacting with my neighbor.

Angel was happy to eat pork chop bits from my hand tonight, but this was the funny part. I called her out from under the trailer, before I brought the horses in, and instead of coming to me, she went around to the front of the barn and stood there sniffing the air. I'm not sure what she was "looking" for. Then she came to me and calmly ate what I offered.

Of course then my nosey cutting-bred gelding had to get in the act and chase her away (she didn't run too far). I scolded the horse for this and put him in his stall.

It's another typical hot summer Florida day, so before dinner all the horses got a shower. Angel lays right there, watching the whole thing. It really is like having a barn dog, which is fun for me, since my house dogs do not do well in the barn, three of them are scared of the horses, and one I don't even attempt to take down there because she has shown aggressive tendencies through the fence with the horses. With Angel it is so different because she lives with the horses.

When the horses were done with their showers, I set up the hose so Angel could play in it, which she did. Then she came in and calmly ate her dinner from the bowl in the tack room while I was doling out the feed again.

She still did not let me pet her tonight, but she was not timid if her teeth or lips touched my fingers, so I think she is getting over her fear on her own, at least as best as she can.

I've tried watching some Dog Whisperer episodes to see if there are any where he has to address a fearful dog, but the ones I have seen so far, all the dogs are already confined, so nothing relates to my situation.

I'm glad the weekend is upon us, so I can spend more time outside with her.

Go Fish

Jun. 12, 2009, 08:50 PM

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 12, 2009, 08:59 PM

No major updates to report, but I did want to share our play session tonight.

After I ate my dinner, I went out to mow part of the pasture. Angel was laying in the shady part of the field, watching the tree line (probably looking for squirrels to chase). I started the mower, and she stayed put for a bit, then moved closer to the barn where she could watch me drive back and forth.

About half way through, something caught her eye across the street, so she went over to sniff the neighbors fenceline. At some point she magically re-appeared in my pasture, higher on the hill and closer to where my daughter was jumping on the trampoline.

When I got done mowing, I took the long rope toy out to play with her, and as I approached she started talking to me, and was happy when I tossed it. Then we spent the next 10 minutes playing "keep away". This game is good exercise. She runs with the toy, but in a playful way, tail flagged up and wagging. Then she stops and lays down with the toy. I approach, and talk to her, and use a playful body language, and then I sort of crouch, and slap my hands on my thighs saying "I'm going to get it". And she gets into play position (front end down, rear in the air, with tail wagging) and then grabs the toy and runs off again.

We did this until she was panting, then I told her enought for tonight, and brought her a treat.

It was fun!

shea'smom

Jun. 12, 2009, 10:50 PM

Hang in there. I think you instinctively are doing a lot of things right! I sure hope the day comes when you can cuddle that dog, hear me Angel?!

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 13, 2009, 05:03 PM

I think it's interesting that she whines taking food from your hand. It has to mean something. My initial guess would be fear, but I've never seen a fearful dog whine before. Yelp, bark, snap, yes, but not whine. What do you think? When she's taking food from your hand, what does her tail, ears, etc. look like? Does she duck, hunker down? Just curious...

It depends on several factors. Some days she comes running to me, and she is "singing" as she runs, sort of a whiney/howly voice, and then she is very perky, ears up and attentive. Some days she is a bit reserved about it. And it now depends on what I am offering. If it is human food, then she usually takes it, unless she really doesn't want it, if it is a dog treat (like the Beggin Strips), she whines until I toss it for her to fetch.

This morning was a singing morning, she came running to me, tail wagging, singing away, and was happily eating from my hand until she heard my husband hammering on his project at the house, it made her a bit jumpy. Also, when she noticed my neighbor riding in the area, she went more into alert mode, and not as interested in eating. But as soon as she determined that the neighbors presence was not a threat, she came right back to focus on me.

When she whines in the tack room doorway, it sounds like an impatient whine (like my house dogs whining for treats), as if she really wants to come get the food while I am in there, and is afraid to come in. Which has not happened in the past few days, she is much braver about marching right in as soon as I put the food in her bowl.

I got a big "high-five" from the folks at the vet's office today, when I told them that she was eating from my hand and that I did pet her that one time this week. They can't wait to meet her in person too.

Oh, more newspapers and a Sprite can to clean up in the pasture this morning, now that the paper people have to leave all the papers outside the security gate (which is next to my pasture) Angel is in dog heaven!

Bluey

Jun. 13, 2009, 05:27 PM

Some stressed and conflicted dogs whine.
Maybe she is wanting to do something, but just not quite brave enough and that stress comes out in whining a little.
Maybe that time the whining doesn't mean anything is being communicated, as when a dog whines with intent, say, to be let out.

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 13, 2009, 09:52 PM

I'm doing my best to learn her "language" of whining, barking, singing so that I can try to understand what she is trying to tell me.

Today we had a great evening romp. I had picked up some Comfortis for her for fleas, and put it inside pork chops wrapped in cheese. It was raining when I went to feed, I called her, but she didn't show up. I put the "treats" in her dish, fed the horses, and went back to the house. I noticed her eating the treats (she takes them outside), so I know she got the Comfortis.

Then I went to get chinese take-out for dinner. When I got home, Angel was laying in the driveway, with the house dogs staring at her from behind the fence. She got out of the way of the truck, and after I parked, I got out of the truck and called her. She ran with her tail wagging back into the pasture. I told her I would be back, and went in to eat.

An hour later I went out with some leftover sesame chicken in hand, and she was waiting patiently in the pasture. I called her, and she came running. She ate a few bits of chicken, and then started backing away and whining. Whenever she did that I turned away, and started to walk away, and I would hear her pitter-patter right behind me. I would stop and offer her another piece. If she took it I praised her if she backed away, I would again turn and walk away, and she would follow me. This went on for a few minutes, until she stopped following me.

So, I put the rest of the chicken in her bowl and grabbed a toy. She was very happy to see that, she jumped up, barked, and did her happy dog dance. I tossed the toy, and we had a long game of keep away. A few times I managed to get the toy from her, and would toss it again.

But, near the end of the game I think I scared her, because I ran towards her to get the toy, and she ran away with her tail between her legs. So I called her, and she stopped, and I apologized, then went right back into play mode and tossed the toy for her. She did run to get it but not as happily as before - bad me! So as as peace offering, I brought her a pigs ear treat. As I approached with it, she lay there whining, and I really did try to translate the whine, it sounded a tiny bit as if she were scared and a little bit happy, so hard to tell.

Oh, I almost forgot this part. Midway in the game of fetch, she stopped and went into the barn to finish the chicken and get a drink of water. So I went out to get the fly masks off the horses. As I came back to the barn, Angel was laying outside the barn. I put the fly masks away, and noticed the horses coming up to the barn, with my youngest gelding in the lead. He approached Angel with his head down (sort of in chase mode), and Angel jumped up, barked, and charged at him. He spun and threw a kick at her. I yelled "Angel, NO!" and she stopped and looked at me. I told her "no chasing!" in a firm voice. And then I tended to the horses, giving them all some scratching.

We finished up our game of fetch after that.

Also I found out from my mother in law that Angel was in the driveway this morning before I got up.

So, either she is trying to find me when I am not around, or trying to fgure out how to interact with my dogs, or a little bit of both.

CB/TB

Jun. 14, 2009, 11:10 AM

Alexie

Jun. 14, 2009, 12:40 PM

Sounds like she's your dog now, she just needs to be a little bit braver :)

Hats off to you - you have great patience :)

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 14, 2009, 05:06 PM

Slowly, slowly, but it is coming! Were you able to find out about any oral vaccines( if available)? At least you can get flea meds into her with food, that must make her feel better. Keep up the good work and posts.

DOH - what a blonde/senior moment yesterday - I was at the vet's office and totally forgot to ask about the oral vaccines.

Late last night when I went to put the horses to bed, Angel was laying in the field in the part that is lit, so I could see her and talk to her. I brought her a good-night treat, but she seemed a bit skittish about me approaching at night time, so I didn't force the issue.

This morning she was very happy to see me, came running and singing, ate all the food from my hand, and hung around while I was cleaning stalls. She comes into the aisle and stands and watches what I am doing.

Oh, this was cute, this morning I had a song stuck in head, so I was singing to myself while I was working in the tack room, and Angel stood there looking at me, with her head cocked to one side.

After all the chores were done, I came to the house to eat breakfast. Then I had to run to the feed store to get some supplies, and Angel had come up to the house and was under my husbands Jeep again. She came out as I approached, and whined, but then went back under the Jeep. When I got back (about 30 minutes later), she was not under the Jeep any more.

I think partly my husband is helping, when he walks around the yard with our house dogs, I know Angel watches, and it seems that very often after he does that, she comes up to the house.

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 14, 2009, 10:08 PM

Tonight Angel made a baby step. She sniffed my leg.

It was the lightest of touches, like a butterfly wing. I was feeding her more sesame chicken (she loves it, she actually smacks her lips when she eats it) when she stopped and came closer to me and sniffed my leg.

We had another good evening, she "helped" with showering the horses, ate her dinner without hesitation, and investigated my tools for bucket cleaning. She played in the hose, and while I was cleaning the buckets, she went out to the field, and came back with her rope toy, trying to entice me to play.

I bought her a dog size Jolly Ball today, and a small beef bone with peanut butter in it. I had left them in the tack room, and she came in and whined at them, but didn't take them. So I put the bone out in the barn aisle and then she took that and chewed on it for a bit. Then she came back, and I tossed the Jolly Ball for her, and she had a blast with it - and she already chewed the handle off.

Jaegermonster

Jun. 14, 2009, 10:14 PM

I think the whining is almost sort of a frustrated thing.
She wants so badly to take the next step and just can't quite yet.

Eireamon

Jun. 14, 2009, 10:28 PM

Hey just a though MM regarding Angel sniffing your leg.

A friend of mine came today and my male dog was going mad sniffing her legs. Turned out her bitch was in heat! And boy could my male dog smell it. :)

As gross as it might seem what about rubbing some of that lovely smelling morsel on your bare leg and then just stitting quietly on a stool and letting her give you the once over smell test.
Might just break down another barrier??

Love the story and have been reading since the start.

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 14, 2009, 10:31 PM

I think the whining is almost sort of a frustrated thing.
She wants so badly to take the next step and just can't quite yet.

I think so too. At least that is what it sounds like while she is whining in the barn.

And as long as I can still see how hard she is trying, I will cherish each little step that she can take.

SevenDogs

Jun. 14, 2009, 10:43 PM

It's easy to get caught up in the petting thing, but she is really making huge progress. I think the sniffing the leg thing is big and I think there has been quite a shift in her comfort level around you (in the tack room, coming up to the house, "helping" with chores). It wasn't that long ago that the biggest thing was going to be taking food from your hand and look where you are now!

lcw579

Jun. 15, 2009, 09:28 AM

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 15, 2009, 03:46 PM

MM, I think you and Angel are doing great! She is moving much faster than our rescue mutt, Duncan, did with my husband! :yes: We have had him almost 3 years and only lately will he let my husband pet him in the yard and in the house. The big breakthrough took over a year and it was when my husband was lying in bed - Duncan sleeps with us and only then would he tentatively let DH give him some pats. Once DH sat up all bets were off and Duncan would scurry away. He still barks like a hound from H** when my husband comes home but at least he doesn't chase him out the door in the mornings anymore! :lol: Yep, I married a very kind and patient man.

I think Angel is a smart but conflicted girl and she is about to go over the final hurdle and let her guard all the way down! Can't wait. :yes::)

Wow, you did marry a keeper! How was Duncan originally captured that you rescued him (sorry if I missed that information in an earlier post).

I too wonder how long it will take until Angel is secure with all the humans and animals in the family.

She was pretty good this morning, ate some food from my hand, marched right into the tack room without whining to eat from her bowl, watched me clean a stall. . . all without any hesitation.

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 15, 2009, 04:33 PM

I think Angel put two and two together, that the house dogs go with me. This afternoon the dogs went out after their dinner, and Angel was in the driveway, whining and wagging, and sniffing at the dogs throught the fence, regardless of the fact that they all were barking at her.

It is almost too bad that I can't figure out a way to get her into the yard, because once I get her in there, she won't be able to get out unless she tunnels under the fence.

But any opening I make for her to get in, will also be an opening for the house dogs to get out!

SevenDogs

Jun. 15, 2009, 05:14 PM

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 15, 2009, 05:22 PM

Can you leave a gate open while the house dogs are in the house? Maybe if she has free range to go in and out a few times?.........

Well, I will have to make sure that the dog-door is closed while I try it, and then make sure the gate is closed before I let the house dogs out, since they CAN beat me to the gate (ask me how I know). Maybe in a few more days, or maybe if I can get the majority of the dogs in the house, and go out with just Murphy.

Another milestone. After the "meet and greet" through the fence, Angel came to the back yard, and first was laying in the shade under the trampoline. My daughter was on the back porch doing a Sudoku puzzle and singing along with her iPod, and Angel was walking around the far side of the pool. My daughter said that she would go in for a minute. Not sure if she knows how to swim!

Right after that I went out with treats in hand, called Angel, and she came running from behind me, which means she was up at the house somewhere. She only wanted a few pieces of food, she was more interested in playing in the hose, which I set up for her, and she gave herself a good soaking.

She was probably wondering why the horses didn't get a shower tonight, it's because there are a few t-storms threatening out there as I type.

Larksmom

Jun. 15, 2009, 05:50 PM

I love reading your posts, but you are always cleaning stalls, do you ever get to enjoy the 'fruit' of all your labor? I don't remember the last time you said you were actually on a horse!
[Mine is sadly gone and I will probably never be able to get another, horse that is.]

lcw579

Jun. 15, 2009, 06:20 PM

Wow, you did marry a keeper! How was Duncan originally captured that you rescued him (sorry if I missed that information in an earlier post).

We got Duncan from a local rescue. He originally came from St. Croix (or so the story goes...). How they captured him, I don't know. He is skittish with most strangers but really afraid of men and it was especially bad with my husband. The best we could figure is that he had a home at some point in his early days and the man of the house beat the wife and kids because he still gets upset if my husband rough houses at all with the girls. It used to freak him out if he even hugged them in front of him. Poor little guy - he was only about a year old when we adopted him but someone sure did a number on him before he came to us.

The funny thing is he still does some of the same barking growling noises at my husband when he wants to come close but is still hesitant. He makes all this noise and wags his tail like he wants to play but just can't bring himself to come over and jump on the couch. He really is just starting to come up and let my husband give him real pats and scratches in the house.

clm08

Jun. 15, 2009, 11:55 PM

MM, I too really enjoy your posts. Thanks for the updates.

A question: when you feed Angel out of your hand, or try to touch her, are you standing up and bending down, or are you crouching? I ask because I befriended a really aggressive German Sheppard which was also a police dog, a long time ago. The story of the GS is that he came with a broken pelvis to the vet hospital where I was a summer intern. He was kept in a large kennel all the time to recover from his injury but everyone was afraid of him because he was extremely aggressive even with limited locomotion ability. I felt really sorry for him so every day I sat just outside his kennel, with my back to him. He barked and growled at first, but over a period of several days started to calm down and accept my presence. I didn't try to talk to him, or even look him in his eyes, so I was essentially non-threatening. Once I knew he was OK with me just sitting in front if his kennel, I slowly started talking to him in a soothing voice, and threw him some treats. Eventually I was able to pet him - but always from a crouching position, never standing up. Once I knew he trusted me I took him out for short walks as part of his therapy. In one of our daily short walks around the vet hospital yard, I walked by another GS which was tied by a leash to a tree (don't know why he was tied there), and lo and behold, the 2 dogs got into a fight! I stupidly reached with my hand to pull my dog by the collar trying to separate the 2 of them and got bitten by him. I'll never forget the look of horror in his face when he realized he had bitten me! He immediately let go of my hand and got away from the fight. Amazingly I didn't have any puncture wounds, only a swollen hand from the powerful jaws clamping on my hand. I continued to care for him and walk him daily, as I was the only person he trusted, until the day he was discharged and his handler came to pick him up. The dog growled and barked at his handler! The vet in charge asked me to sedate the dog so they could put him in the police car. I felt I was betraying him and to this date suspect his handler had badly mistreated him and that accounted for his aggressiveness. I also deeply regretted not being able to adopt that GS then.

Sorry for the long story, but my point was that I made myself very "small" and initially averted his gaze to gain his confidence.

Good luck and look forward to the day you will finally have Angel's total trust in you!

CB/TB

Jun. 16, 2009, 08:14 AM

Clm08 brought up a good point, about making yourself small and unthreatening. I know sitting on the ground is out, but do you have a small stool or milk crate you could park yourself on and see if she'd take the food from your hand? If she sniffed your leg, maybe she'd try the arm. Also, any sign of puppies?

Tiki

Jun. 16, 2009, 01:05 PM

Well, you do that with new baby foals - crouch down to their height and then they walk right up to you. When you stand over them they run away - until they become 'civilized'.

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 16, 2009, 01:45 PM

I'll do my best to answer all the questions.

1) Do I get to enjoy the "fruits" of my labor, meaning to ride? Well, I don't ride much, one horse is retired, the other semi retired, and the other is still green as grass. And the weird part is, I don't seem to miss riding that much, I get as much pleasure of just caring for them and hanging out as I did riding and showing. Maybe a sign of old age. It has probably been almost a year since I last rode. Gee, time flys!

2) Crouching down. Whenever I do that, Angel slinks away, she seems to get more nervous when I get down to her level, vs being "big". I know, it seems odd, but it is what it is. I do try it at least once a day, and she does not trust it. I've also tried sitting on the tongue of the horse trailer, which puts me pretty low to the ground, she won't come to me there either. Same if I sit on the concrete pad for the wash stall.

So this morning, I was able to give Angel a little scratch under her chin as she ate from my hand, I will mark that as our morning progress, and another step towards being domesticated.

Jaegermonster

Jun. 16, 2009, 01:53 PM

What if you got down on all fours and bowed like dogs do when they are playing?
I've done that with some of my rescues and strays that were a little intimidated and it works wonders

harveyhorses

Jun. 16, 2009, 03:19 PM

So this morning, I was able to give Angel a little scratch under her chin as she ate from my hand, I will mark that as our morning progress, and another step towards being domesticated.[/QUOTE]

Baby steps, but they are FORWARD baby steps!
Maybe when you crouch she thinks 'pounce'?
Does she 'yodel' ? That's what my grand-dog blue heeler does, whiney barkey growly sort of noise.

SevenDogs

Jun. 16, 2009, 04:31 PM

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 16, 2009, 10:59 PM

Baby steps, but they are FORWARD baby steps!
Maybe when you crouch she thinks 'pounce'?
Does she 'yodel' ? That's what my grand-dog blue heeler does, whiney barkey growly sort of noise.

Yes, I guess you could call it yodeling. She seems to have a different tone for each emotion, some is pure whining, other is barking, then there is the in-between noises.

It could be that the crouching is intimidating. When we play, I do bend over with my hands on my thighs like I do with my dogs, and say "give me that", and she gets in play postion, butt in the air, front end on the ground, tail wagging, then grabs the toy and runs.

I felt bad tonight I was not there for dinner feeding, I was in the ER having a battery of tests run - and they found nothing wrong which is good, guess I just need a vacation. My daughter fed and said she saw Angel come in to eat after she left the barn, but she did say that she saw Angel up by the house again this afternooon.

Tonight when I got home at 9 PM, I went to the barn to take off the fly masks, and Angel did come in to eat while I was in the barn. So I guess I am her human!

Jaegermonster

Jun. 16, 2009, 11:36 PM

In the ER????? WHAT??? What happened MM?

SevenDogs

Jun. 17, 2009, 12:05 AM

Hope you are ok!! :(

3horsemom

Jun. 17, 2009, 11:29 AM

i hope everything is ok.
angel must have been very bewildered by your abscence. however, that is a good thing that once you returned she did not hesitate to come in your barn.
you are most definitely her human!!
take care of yourself bc you sure are taking care of everyone else!

harveyhorses

Jun. 17, 2009, 11:29 AM

ER??? I not only worry about Angel!
Take some time off and feel better.

danceronice

Jun. 17, 2009, 12:24 PM

Good grief, ER? What happened?

And it also sounds promising that, while she didn't come in for your daughter, she did go in to eat and came up by the house. She was probably wondering where you were!

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 17, 2009, 12:34 PM

Sorry everyone, didn't mean to alarm you all. I went to the ER because I have been experiencing some irregular heartbeats. Usually it is a "come and go" thing, but this week it came and never left. I called the doctor, got the usually runaround, and told to go to the ER. So, yesterday I decided to go get it checked out. Other than the "extra heartbeats" the have not found anything yet, but of course that means more tests in my very near future.

It is most likely hormonal related (change of life crap) and stress from work. Or maybe it's nature's way of telling me I need to reevaluate my lifestyle and makes some changes. Internet searches show that "extra" heartbeats are usually not of concern, millions of people live with them.

So, Angel was happy to see me this morning, as I was happy to see her. She seemed a bit hesitant to touch my fingers with her teeth for the first two bits of food, but got over it.

She seems to be less jumpy about me moving about close to her, not as calm as the house dogs, but not as jumpy either.

And no newspapers to pick up this morning!

SevenDogs

Jun. 17, 2009, 12:55 PM

Glad you are ok! :)

Jaegermonster

Jun. 17, 2009, 03:14 PM

That's good news. Make sure and take care of yourself.
Good news about Angel too

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 17, 2009, 04:25 PM

Oy, it is horribly hot here today, I'll be showering the horses and setting up the hose for Angel in an hour for sure. I hope she is staying in the coolest spot that she can find.

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 17, 2009, 11:17 PM

Interesting but long day. Thunderstorms started making noise just about the time to shower and feed the horses. As I started showering the first horse, Angel appeared out of nowhere, and sat practically behind the horse. Then suddenly she started to sniff the air, and took off at a trot. A few minutes later I spotted her playing in the landscape sprinklers near the entrance gate, having a good old time for herself.

When I got done with the horses, I called her, and she came trotting over. Tonights treat was leftover brisket, which she seemed to like. Now here is a funny part, at one point she turned her back to me, so I slowly reached out and touched her back flank with my finger. Which did cause her to spin back in my general direction, and she gave me a look, but then ate a few more pieces of food from my hand.

After she ate, she went to play in the barn hose, that I had left running for her, in case she wanted to cool off some more.

My mother in law told me today that Angel spends a lot of time in the morning "playing" with the house dogs through the fence, and that she has to be careful driving out of the driveway to make sure that Angel is clear - usually she is, if she sees people in the driveway she usually goes back into the pasture. She also told me that the house dogs are not barking at Angel like they used to. I guess that is a good thing.

We didn't get to play tonight, it was too darned hot and muggy out there.

I do need to go shopping, running out of dog treats again!

SevenDogs

Jun. 18, 2009, 02:18 AM

More progress! Yippee! :yes:

CB/TB

Jun. 18, 2009, 08:19 AM

Stealth petting! It might work. Hope You are feeling better. Angel is really becoming quite the gourmand.

FalseImpression

Jun. 18, 2009, 10:16 AM

Stealth petting! It might work. Hope You are feeling better. Angel is really becoming quite the gourmand.

and the gourmet....

It won't be long now... well, everything is relative... but she is coming around!

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 18, 2009, 10:30 AM

This mornings treat was chicken fried steak - not sure who ate that and brought it home, not something I am fond of, but Angel seemed to like it.

She is getting braver by the day, coming into the barn and tack room while I am there, and this morning she did not worry when she touched me with her lips and teeth.

She did stand and watch me pick up the newspaper that she brought home as a present this morning.

And I think she has been visiting the house dogs more, my hubands set up a motion detector that aims down the driveway, which triggers a voice thing in his office, and I heard it go off a few times this morning, so I think Angel is triggering it.

I have also been stopping and holding my hand out (palm side down) to see if Angel wants to sniff it - so far no go, but I suppose if I were to rub food on my hand that might change - seems to be a messy thing to do, but I might have to consider it. She doesn't jump away when I do that, but she does not approach either.

onetrickpony

Jun. 18, 2009, 01:23 PM

MHM

Jun. 18, 2009, 01:41 PM

It's so nice to see that Angel's progress is so steady! She just keeps figuring it out now, day by day. :)

MM, please take care of yourself! Hope you feel better.

Reds-n-Greys

Jun. 18, 2009, 08:57 PM

Oh, MM please take care!

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 18, 2009, 10:10 PM

What if you rub your hands all over your house dogs, and then go outside to visit Angel? And also somehow encourage your dogs to rub on your pant legs? Whenever I visit someone's house who has dogs, my dogs go CRAZY trying to smell the other dog's scent. This might work since she's already showing interest in your house dogs by visiting them through the fence. Maybe???

It's a good thought. I will tell you that I always smell like my house dogs, since they are always all over me like cheap suits!

Angel seems to be maintaining the status quo today, so I need to get creative to see what else I can dream up to entice her to make contact.

She was not very interested in playing, she was eating normally (both from my hand and from her bowl) and hanging around the horses.

Might be time to bring one of the house dogs down to the barn.

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 19, 2009, 01:50 PM

Another roasting hot day in FL today. Angel is under the horse trailer, I hope it is cooler there. I did talk to her, but she showed no interest in coming out at lunchtime.

She was not around for breakfast either, maybe she had found someplace to get cool or something.

She was laying in the field last night at midnight as I was rounding up the herd, I wanted the horse stalled last night due to t-storms rolling in. I walked up to her and spoke with her, she did not get up, or talk to me, but did wag her tail a tiny bit. I think she is still working on determining who I am in the dark.

Toying with the idea of buying a cheap kids wading pool to see if she would play in it. The issue is - where to put it? Can't put it in the pasture, darned horses would destroy it in short order, not sure she will come into the yard...maybe if I put it out only while the horses are in their stalls eating?

fitzwilliam

Jun. 19, 2009, 05:49 PM

My labs love their $5 wading pools from the big box discounts! if you have a gooseneck horse trailer how about under the overhang? You are a great job with Angel and it sounds like she knows it, aren:t dogs the best?

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 19, 2009, 06:10 PM

Well, the trailer is a bumper pull, so that won't do :no:. I'll think of something.

At dinner, I went down, rounded up the horses, and ran the hose to get the water to cool down before showering them. Angel came out from under the trailer, played in the hose for a bit, and then disappeared for a few minutes. I think she leaves the pasture if she has to do her duty, probably does it on the swales, which is fine with me.

She came back as I was finishing the first horse, so I set the hose up for her while I did the sweat scraping, and she played in it a bit more.

I put that horse away, and brought out the food (sliced turkey and cheese) and she ate very nicely from my hand.

Then she lay in the shade and watched as I hosed off the other two horses. When that was done, she came in to eat in the tack room while I was dishing out dinner.

When that was all done, I had to tell her that it was too hot to play for both of us tonight. For a few minutes I crouched down in the barn aisle, but she did not show any interest in approaching, even when I put my barn gloves a few feet away from me (I thought maybe she would be curious).

She did sniff the sweat scraper hanging on one of the halter hooks, so she is curious about new things in the environment.

Too hot to drag the older house dog to the barn tonight, that might have to wait for a few days.

I will swing by Dollar General tomorrow and see if they have any cheap wading pools, and if not, I know Wal-Mart has them for $10.

harveyhorses

Jun. 19, 2009, 07:20 PM

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 20, 2009, 05:37 PM

Put it somewhere you can BOTH enjoy it. I bet she would get in and splash around with you. Maybe. We bought one for our dogs, and decided to just keep it clean enough for us to 'share'. Hey can we say Redneck:yes:?? Well we swam in ponds that were, uhh, who knows. ;)

Oh, we have a human swimming pool, which Angel could come use if she wanted to! She was walking around the edge of it last week, my daughter thought maybe she would jump in, but she didn't.

One day the black lab from the huge farm across the street, jumped in the pool, paddled around, jumped back out, and went on her merry way.

It really is brutally hot out there right now, time to go hose off the horses again.

Milocalwinnings

Jun. 20, 2009, 06:30 PM

Sounds like you're still making good progress!!

As she continues to get comforable eatng from your fingers, what about trying to put the food in the palm of your hand and having her eat it that way? There would be slightly more contact and it would make her move past her comfort zone a bit... idk just a suggestion, but it would be something I would try!

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 20, 2009, 08:47 PM

Sounds like you're still making good progress!!

As she continues to get comforable eating from your fingers, what about trying to put the food in the palm of your hand and having her eat it that way? There would be slightly more contact and it would make her move past her comfort zone a bit... idk just a suggestion, but it would be something I would try!

It's a good idea, I will have to try it tomorrow, now that I have more good stuff to offer her. I just got back from the grocery store, all stocked up for her.

Tonight she loved playing in the water hose again, she is smart enough to play in it to get cool.

When I got back from the store, I had a special treat for her, some sort of rawhide filled with beef (I had a coupon). She was laying in the riding ring with one of the horses, I went out with the treat, and she jumped up and barked, but then looked away from me. So I said "fine, you don't want it, I'm going back to the barn". As I was heading back, I could hear her panting at my heels. I stopped, and again she looked away, so I started back to the barn, and she followed me again, and then ran past me and stopped and looked at me. So I said "do you want this?" and she jumped and barked, so I tossed it for her. She ran to it, sniffed it, got very excited, grabbed it and ran all around the field with her tail high in the air.

And now she is out in the field chewing on it, rolling around with it, happy as a clam.

shea'smom

Jun. 20, 2009, 10:36 PM

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 20, 2009, 11:20 PM

Awww! I had to check this thread while I was out of town. Boy, I have never seen a dog take this long to come around. She must have a very good reason for being the way she is. Bless her. I keep hoping to read the update where you get to cuddle her!

I tell her that every day. I tell her how much I want to pet her and scratch her, and brush the flies away, she just looks at me.

I would say that for the most part, she is happy with her life the way that it is. I think she is enjoying our interactions, even if they are not on a physical level.

I do keep hoping that she will let me pet her again, I just have not figured out what I need to do to make that happen. I keep replaying the day that I did pet her, and the only difference was that it was after a weekend of a lot of activity with strange people here at the farm, and she was in the back yard and not in the barnyard.

Blacklabs

Jun. 21, 2009, 01:17 PM

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 21, 2009, 02:23 PM

Thanks for the update on Angel, hoping it's cooler today for you. Weather Channel says very hot your way.

I was worrying if she does get into the kiddy pool if you could add flea shampoo to the water in time and she would then get a nice flea bath in her whirlpool tub and then hose off in her shower-sprinkler.You could call it Angel's spa day. ;)

Nope, still hot as Hades here today, there is a bit of a breeze, but not helping much.

This morning Angel did not even want to come out of her cool cave under the horse trailer. Not that I blame her.

She did get a dose of Comfortis a few weeks ago, to help with the fleas, it is mostly the gnats that are pestering her, just like the horses. I do give her heartworm preventatives also - all with the blessing of the vet.

Until I can actually catch her, and take her in for an exam, it is the best we can do. At least from a visual perspective, she looks very healthy, and acts healthy also.

cheval convert

Jun. 21, 2009, 06:26 PM

I have not read all of this post but I think you are doing a great job trying to make friends, however, this may be as close as you will get to her. (I am hoping that I am wrong!) This thread has brought back memories from long ago when a fox hound showed up in our neighborhood. He adopted a little old lady who lived down the street from us. He slept on her front stoop, followed her everywhere (she did not drive, so she walked a lot) and very rarely left her yard when she was in the house. She fed and watered him and talked to him but he never let her touch him. One day she was in her yard talking to another neighbor when he came up to her and jumped up on her. She started to pat him and all at once he remembered that he was afraid and ran off. He came back and continued their routine, but he never again let her touch him. I hadn't thought of him in a long time - thanks for the memory. I hope Angel comes around for you but if she never progresses beyond where she is, you have made her happy and she is loyal to you.

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 21, 2009, 09:45 PM

Thanks for sharing that. I keep hoping to be able to convince Angel that more touching is good, I think the suggestions of bringing the house dogs with me to the barn so she can see me interact with them might help. I'll see if I can fit that into the schedule tomorrow.

Otherwise I hate to think of having to resort to literally tackling her with a blanket or a net, and terrifying her! AH, what a rock and a hard place this is.

I just got in from the fly mask removal, I went down with some chicken in hand, and she ran right to me (in the dark no less) and ate from my fingers. I tried the food in the palm thing, that made her back up away from me, but when I put it back in my fingers she came back to take it. Maybe I need to keep a stronger grip on it so she has to make the contact.

cheval convert

Jun. 21, 2009, 10:15 PM

How about a little bit of peanut butter smeared on your fingers so that she can lick it off? Just a thought.

Also, as far as Angel enjoying being touched and petted. I adopted an australian shepherd from rescue a little more than a year ago. He was not a bad dog, just an unexercised, undisciplined high energy aussie. He has a strong herding instinct which he has translated into a strong fetch drive. All he was interested in when we got him was playing fetch - with a ball, a frisbee or a stuffed animal. He didn't mind us touching him but he really was not interested in being petted. Only in the past few months has he become interested in affection. It is quite a change with him - he now will sit next to me and ask to be petted, without a fetch toy in sight. So, if has taken this long for a dog that was brought up with attention to come around to enjoying his patting sessions, it may be a while before Angel comes around. I truly do hope she comes around. She is a cute little girl.

pony89

Jun. 22, 2009, 12:17 AM

I almost wonder if you'll have her in your house before you really get anywhere with the petting.

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 22, 2009, 11:16 AM

I almost wonder if you'll have her in your house before you really get anywhere with the petting.

That might be a challenge, with 4 resident house dogs already - they can be rather intimidating (just ask my neighbors!) so I can't imagine Angel following me or them into the house at this point. But you never know.

She was very happy to see me this morning, all sorts of singing for breakfast. And only one paper to pick up in the field.

Larksmom

Jun. 23, 2009, 07:00 PM

I think I saw on line it is supposed to be near 100 today in florida. It is about that bad here in midwest. No relief from heat. However, if a dog doesn't KNOW there is such a thing as ac, do they miss it? Toffee is certainly enjoying it here, doesn't want to go out much at all any more!

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 23, 2009, 08:44 PM

Yes, it was a busy day, workwise and farm wise. And yes, the 4 day heat wave is finally easing up a bit. In fact, my daughter and I watched the outside temp drop from 102 to 77 in less than 5 minutes as a big thunderstorm blew in. We were in the truck driving home from an appointment this afternoon.

This morning, Angel was under the trailer, and didn't even want to come out. I walked up to it, crouched down, she wiggled around and stuck her nose out, and said "no thanks, I'll stay here".

After the storms I went to feed the horses, and Angel was not around, once again I don't know where she goes during the storms (probably to the empty farm next door), but she was out there 10 minutes ago when I went to take off the fly masks.

Same routine, I called her, she came running to me, tail wagging, singing, and ate the chicken bits (tiny ones) from my fingers, I used small pieces so that she had to make contact in order to get them. Then I went in to the barn get a beggin strip, and made her follow me around for a bit before I tossed it for her to fetch.

Hopefully tomorrow I can try the house dog to the barn experiment, my mother in law told me that she sees Angel playing through the fence with the house dogs, they run back and forth along the driveway. The house dogs don't seem to bark at her as much as they used to, maybe they are starting to accept her as part of the family, even if it is from a distance, sort of like the horses. I'm still trying to figure out which one might be the best, perhaps one of the younger dogs.

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 23, 2009, 08:47 PM

Oh, I did get a "kiddie" plastic wading pool at Wal-Mart today, but didn't set it up yet, it's still in the back of the truck. I figure that for $10, it won't send me to the poor house if one of the horses stomps it apart, and I don't think they can get hurt on it. I am picturing a bit of snorting and spinning when I first put it out.

jetsmom

Jun. 23, 2009, 09:04 PM

MHM

Jun. 23, 2009, 09:06 PM

I got a plastic wading pool for a dog of mine years ago, but the first time she tried to use it, she thought the bottom was too slippery, and she wouldn't go near it again. Maybe put some non-slip strips in the bottom, just in case?

Eagerly awaiting pictures of Angel in the pool! :D

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 23, 2009, 09:12 PM

Get a picture of an 1100 lb horse playing in the kiddie pool. I'm sure one of your horses will end up playing in it (or trying to. Just steer clear of the massive spook you'll get when it bursts on him!!!!)

I already know which one it will be - my 7-year old cutting bred horse, Munchkin! He is the nosiest horse I have ever owned, and needs to know everything. The other day when I had the hose set up for Angel to play in, Munchkin had to stop and play with it first.

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 24, 2009, 09:33 PM

Well, I didn't set up the pool today, had a work crisis at dinner time to tend to first.

When I went down to feed, Angel was waiting, and tonight she ran to me, and did the paw swipe thing, for half a second I though she was going to swipe me! She ate the chicken calmly, came in to eat, all the usual stuff.

I had to clean out the pasture waterer, so first I pulled the drain plug, then went to get the hose while it was draining. Angel came around to watch, and was very amused by the long hose being dragged across the field, and went to check out the water coming out of the waterer. She layed in the field watching me work, just like any good farm dog would.

Then I went in for my own dinner.

2 hours later I went down to take off the fly masks. All the horses were in the barn, so I closed them in their stalls and went to the house to get Murphy, my oldest house dog. When I entered the field with Murphy, Angel got up, but slunk away with her hair all raised up on her back. So, I didn't keep approaching, but just walked around a bit. At one point we had a stare-down, with Angel at one side of the barn aisle and Murphy and I at the other. We took one step forward, and Angel slunk away. So I walked around for another minute, and then brought Murphy back to the house. At this point I would not say that the experiment was a failure, but it was not a success either.

When I went back to let the horses back out, Angel was sniffing all around where we had walked. I walked up to her, and she barked at me, and then started sniffing the air, but would not come and actually sniff me.

So, I went to get a toy to play with her, and she got excited. We played fetch with that for a few rounds, and then she got distracted watching my neighbor in her yard with her puppy. So I started rounding up the toys in the field and as I was heading to the barn she started to follow me. So I put down the jolly balls (small and large) and tossed her toy, but she didn't fetch it, instead she went to the toy pile, and picked up the small jolly ball and started playing soccer with it!

I'm also working on getting her to follow me, when I go out with a beggin strip, instead of just tossing it, I show it to her, and then walk away and call her, and she does follow at my heels. I figure until I can pet her again, the least I can do is work on some hands off training.

I really like that she always wags her tail for me now, and will run to me when I call her (most of the time anyway).

suze

Jun. 24, 2009, 09:52 PM

This is the first thing I read in the morning when I sit down to have breakfast at my computer (multitasking, of course :)) and the last thing I check before I go to bed. You've done wonderfully and have so much patience! Do you think maybe she was suspicious of Murphy because he wasn't in his usual "place" but came down to hers?

3horsemom

Jun. 24, 2009, 10:03 PM

maybe angel has a case of "my mom?!

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 24, 2009, 10:22 PM

I was thinking that as I was bringing Murphy back to the house, that Angel is okay interacting with them through the fence when the are in "their" territory, and she feels that the pasture is "her" territory, yet realizes that I am the pack leader and that somehow both sides of the fence are "my" territory, and I think she is trying to figure that out.

And I did think that there was a bit of jealousy in how she barked at me when I went back without Murphy in tow. Which is why I made an extra effort to play with her tonight (and thankfully the heat is letting up a bit).

Calamber

Jun. 24, 2009, 11:58 PM

Sorry, I have been out of the loop getting prepared to move across country. We had three wolf hybrids and one wolf in our neighborhood in Loudoun County a few years ago. Animal control was there every single day for a month, they had absolutely no clue about how to trap a wolf or hybrid who are much more clever than dogs, it would have been funny if it was not so pitiful, the old wolf was starving and the younger ones were pulling down deer and eating only their haunches, everyone was concerned for their livestock. I told them they needed to get a wolf trap which was available in a neighboring county (I checked), they also needed someone who knew how to trap a wolf. Long story short, a neighbor befriended the older starving wolf, got him in the garage and slammed the door on him. Then a different AC officer went in and darted him.

I would have to say if AC could not dart this dog, you need to get a professional who can and who can help you figure it out. I am not trying to be difficult, I personally have had three different sessions with rabies exposure, it is endemic in many areas and is a horrifying situation to go through. I realize this would be stressful for all, not trying to be a wet blanket here, just think where there is a will there is a way. You just need to find the right person to take care of darting her after you have her trapped or netted. No, I have not read all 42 pages of the story, but enough to realize that this could take a very long time, and as someone else has said, you may never get your hands on this dog.

Sometimes extreme measures have to be taken for the safety of all, I am just trying to give you the benefit of my experience in these matters. In the long run it is the right thing to do, it is the law in every state in the US for good reason and it can be done. If she was in my neighborhood, that is what I would have to do, either drop a net over her once I got her in the same spot she is used to being in or figure something else out like tieing a long string around a door nob so as not to startle her with your proximity. She goes in to eat, you pull the string on the door, the person with the dart who may have to dart her more than once goes in, if the AC officer has experience with darting, use that person, if not, definitely find someone who does. It is just not safe to have an unvaccinated dog in the vicinty of all of those animals and people.

And, by the by, I had irregular heartbeats along with anxiety attacks which caused the same thing. I had a complete nutritional evaluation by an MD with a holisitc bent. He put me on a special ionized Magnesium supplement made by a company called Perque out of Sterling, Va. I now sleep through the night and no more palpatations. I was also put on an L-Dopamine supplement and an amalgam of B vitamins, the L-Dopamine because I also had very low Melantonin levels. The readings that determined that were those intended to read neurotransmitter levels, most docs will never even tell you that it is possible to get those readings. A regular MD would never order those tests but they are available if you go to the right MD, only a couple of the insurance companies will pay for them however. I had Anthem at the time and they did.

Hope you can get this resolved with the least trauma but better this trauma than the one I am most concerned about.

cheval convert

Jun. 25, 2009, 10:26 AM

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 25, 2009, 11:01 AM

I believe that you can bait her food with rabies vaccine if that is a worry. I know that in Massachusetts rabies had not made it across the bridge to Cape Cod and for years the state set out baited food on both sides of the bridge. This was successful for years. A couple of years ago the state discontinued the program and within one year rabies had manifested itself on the Cape. So ask your vet if baiting the food is a possibility.

Good suggestion, I had done some online research of the baits, I will call the vet and see what they think.

This morning Angel was sleeping under the trailer, but she did come out to eat some turkey. And she did follow me around for a bit, so I am going to count that as progress, that she will follow me if I walk away from her.

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 25, 2009, 01:19 PM

I have to share how cute Angel was at lunchtime. As I was putting the horses in their stalls to eat, I spotted her out rolling around in the manure that I had spread last night.

I went out to set up the hose to run to get the water cool, I whistled to her, she came trotting over and watched me prop up the hose. I told her "go play in the sprinkler" and went in to feed the horses.

I peeked out the stall window, and she was standing in the stream of water, getting herself soaking wet.

Then she came in to the barn looking for a treat, I gave her one, and she trotted outside with it.

When I left the barn after the horses finished lunch, Angel was stretched out in the sun drying off.

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 25, 2009, 09:25 PM

I tried the swimming pool tonight, and Angel was not interested in it. Neither were my horses, at least not yet. Oh well, it was only 10 bucks, and my daughter and her friends will find something to do with it.

As I was filling it, Angel came to check it out, but she was more interested in playing in the hose, but she is funny, she barks at me to set it up, but won't play until I am out of sight.

I even tried putting some of her toys in the pool, that didn't entice her to try to go in to get them.

For those of you that have dogs that play in wading pools, how did you get them to go in (other than grabbig them and putting them in - not an option for me and Angel).

She is so funny when she follows me, I can hear her panting right behind me.

Oh, tonight I took out the old fans and put in new fans in the barn, and Angel came in to investigate the boxes and the old fans. She is very curious about things.

suze

Jun. 25, 2009, 09:49 PM

Maybe set the sprinkler in it & let her investigate on her own? Ours are border collies, so it is a matter of having the wading pool available or they'll get in the cow water. Or dig in the water bucket in the kitchen.

3horsemom

Jun. 25, 2009, 10:27 PM

perhaps you should get in the pool with some sesame chicken in your hand and see if angel will follow.

SevenDogs

Jun. 26, 2009, 12:16 AM

First of all, Angel just seems like one happy dog! She gets more and more comfortable every day! :)

We had a german shepherd mix and we had to get into the wading pool first (sit down, etc.) several times before she tried it. She started by drinking out of it, but eventually got in. She seemed like she was a bit worried about jumping over the side into the pool at first. But, she wasn't a water dog (the way Angel loves the sprinklers).

FYI, in later years we had a real "in ground" pool and she never got in, although she loved to hang out right on the edge and lick the water from our faces. Later in life, she actually she fell in one morning when she wasn't paying attention, and my husband dove in after her in his work clothes -- quite a sight! She could have easily swam to the stairs, but he wasn't taking any chances. He's a keeper! :lol:

I liked the idea of setting the sprinkler inside the pool -- kind of a "Three Coins for the Fountain" approach!

Blacklabs

Jun. 26, 2009, 07:33 AM

Cute story SDS.

I have labs and one of them was cautious about the kiddie pool and we know how labs love water. First the sides and then the pool bottom was to slippery .I walked in and out of the pool many times so she could see it was ok and also put strips on the bottom so she's didn't slip.Eventually she worked up enough courage to get in.

Good Luck

MHM

Jun. 26, 2009, 11:01 AM

Later in life, she actually she fell in one morning when she wasn't paying attention, and my husband dove in after her in his work clothes -- quite a sight! She could have easily swam to the stairs, but he wasn't taking any chances. He's a keeper! :lol:

Aww- sweet! Does he have any single brothers? ;)

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 26, 2009, 11:44 AM

FYI, in later years we had a real "in ground" pool and she never got in, although she loved to hang out right on the edge and lick the water from our faces. Later in life, she actually she fell in one morning when she wasn't paying attention, and my husband dove in after her in his work clothes -- quite a sight! She could have easily swam to the stairs, but he wasn't taking any chances. He's a keeper! :lol:

LOL - good mental image on that one. I worry that one day one of my aussie/golden retriever cross dogs will jump into our inground pool, and that me or my husband will jump in to get them out, and kill our cell phones that are always attached to us.

This morning, Angel was not under the trailer, and not anywhere close while I fed the horses and picked up her toys and newspapers from the field. But as I was heading back to the house, I spotted her, playing with my youngest horse, who was heading over to investigate the pool, and she chased him away from it.

I whistled for her to come to me and leave the horse alone, and she did come running and singing, and ate her chicken. Halfway through the chicken, she ran back to the shade and her water buckets, so I went to her with the rest.

So, I wonder if she thinks the pool is hers now, not really sure. Every day I wish I was a doggie mind reader.

pony89

Jun. 26, 2009, 12:30 PM

So, I wonder if she thinks the pool is hers now, not really sure. Every day I wish I was a doggie mind reader.

Well, she's right, isn't she?:winkgrin:

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 26, 2009, 01:00 PM

Well, she's right, isn't she?:winkgrin:

Well, yes, I did get it for her. However, the two geldings thought it was a great new thing at lunchtime, they both stood there for a good 5 or 10 minutes, drinking from it, splashing with their lips, and dunking their noses in as deep as they could go. Angel was not around to chase them away.

So, if any of you is having issues with horses that won't drink, go get a cheap wading pool!

SevenDogs

Jun. 26, 2009, 01:33 PM

Well, yes, I did get it for her. However, the two geldings thought it was a great new thing at lunchtime, they both stood there for a good 5 or 10 minutes, drinking from it, splashing with their lips, and dunking their noses in as deep as they could go. Angel was not around to chase them away.

So, if any of you is having issues with horses that won't drink, go get a cheap wading pool!

New SAT question: Horse is to wading pool as dog is to toilet! :lol:

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 26, 2009, 01:42 PM

New SAT question: Horse is to wading pool as dog is to toilet! :lol:

Now that is funny! And true! We have two large full dog dishes full of water at all times, and my house dogs will still drink out of the toilet. The downside is that if they drink too much from the toilet, and someone uses it after that, because the water level is low, it can clog (ask me how I know) when you go to flush it.

My neighbor told me how she has caught her new GSD puppy paddling with his paws in the toilet, probably because they are trying to teach him how to swim in the pool.

SevenDogs

Jun. 26, 2009, 01:52 PM

Now that is funny! And true! We have two large full dog dishes full of water at all times, and my house dogs will still drink out of the toilet. The downside is that if they drink too much from the toilet, and someone uses it after that, because the water level is low, it can clog (ask me how I know) when you go to flush it.

My neighbor told me how she has caught her new GSD puppy paddling with his paws in the toilet, probably because they are trying to teach him how to swim in the pool.

:lol:

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 26, 2009, 09:35 PM

I'm working more on getting Angel to walk with me. Tonight at dinner, she was laying in the shady part of the pasture, up near the house. I called her, and she came to me, and of course the house dogs started going nuts when I started to hand feed Angel.

So I said "come Angel" and started walking to the barn, and she followed right next to me this time, which is an improvement, usually she walks a few steps behind me.

Then she sat quietly until I started to feed her more. . . and then the horses started getting nosey. So I told her "be right back" and put the horses in their stalls. She waited patiently for my return.

Tonight I am watching more Dog Whisperer episodes, just to see if I can get any little pointers. I think the one thing that I am learning is that the dog (just like the horses) will react and reflect my behavior, meaning if I am tentative or fearful, she will be that way, whereas if I am calm she can stay calmer. The other thing that I learned is that it is a very good sign when Angel lays near me as I do things, it is a sign of acceptance of my leadership. For example, tonight as I was hosing off the horses, she layed in the sand, about 4 feet away, just watching. The horses are not nervous about her being around at all either.

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 27, 2009, 11:27 PM

Just a quick cute story to share. Today I bought Angel another new toy, a "dumbell" shaped squeeking thing.

When I brought it home, I was in the barn, and while cutting off the tags, it squeeked. I put in in her pile of toys, and went about my barn chores.

Suddenly out of the corner of my eye, I spotted Angel going into the tack room. She snagged the toy, and ran out with her tail in the air, happy to have "stolen" the new toy. She was tossing it around, rolling around on the ground with it, having a little party.

Then I went out to run the hose to fill the water buckets, and Angel came trotting up to me so she could play in her "sprinkler".

Jaegermonster

Jun. 27, 2009, 11:38 PM

ref your dogs and the big swimming pool:
it would be well worth your time to take each of your dogs into the pool (and you may have to carry them in) and show them where the stairs are.
we did that with each of our dogs, just in case they ever fell in and we weren't around so they could get out.
Make sure to wear a shirt and sweats in case they get scared and scratch, but they usually settle down after a minute.
We took each one in and far enough in that they would have to swim a bit, and then directed them to the stairs. They figured it out.
Now a couple of them will swim with us, and they always go right to the stairs.

ps all mine are big, the biggest are 90 lb rottie and a 90 lb lab, and we took each one in that wouldn't go in on their own

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 27, 2009, 11:55 PM

Good point on the swimming pool thing. We've been here 5 years, and we only had one dog that ever wanted to go into the pool, and she died two years ago.

She was a bit of a lunatic, we could not swim in peace, the dog made a horrible fuss until we would let her out, and then she rarely jumped into the pool, but the few times that she did, no matter how many times we showed her where the stairs were, she never figured it out (this was not a very bright dog).

The 4 dogs we have now, show no interest in getting in the pool, even when we are in it, and they don't have access to the pool unless we let them out back, and then only when we are with them, because they could get out of the back yard if unsupervised.

SevenDogs

Jun. 28, 2009, 12:35 AM

Miss Angel is one happy dog.... getting happier and more content every day! I think getting her to walk with you is a great idea! We need more photos!! :)

Jaegermonster: That pool advice is good -- we did that too. MM: our dogs were not the brightest either. It is fenced now and the dogs don't go outside alone either.

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 28, 2009, 10:26 PM

Sunday update.

This morning, my dear daughter came to the barn with me to help with the weekly deep cleaning of the stalls and to feed the horses. As we approached the barn, Angel came out from under the trailer, and cautiously approached me while keeping one eye on my daughter.

While my daughter was putting the horses in their stalls for breakfast, I fed Angel a few bits of turkey, then handed the bag to my daughter and told her to try to feed Angel. Angel would not take the food from her hand, so I told her to just toss bits to her to get her used to someone other than me feeding her. Angel did eat the bits that my daughter tossed, but got nervous when my daughter crouched down. I told my daughter not to be discouraged, that it was very good that Angel took the food that she tossed to her that close (within 2-3 feet), and that crouching makes the dog nervous, no matter who does it, I showed her that Angel does not like it when I crouch either. So, that was a bit of progress today.

This evening after I ate my own dinner, I went down to spread the manure and do some pasture mowing. As soon as I had finished spreading, Angel trotted out from under the trailer, and went and had a good roll in the manure.

Oh, the new toy was totally shredded in the field this morning, and I had no idea that it had stuffing in it, that was everywhere too! Good thing it was not expensive.

After I got done mowing, I went out with a chew treat for Angel, and she did her usually jump and leap back waiting for me to toss it. I said "no, come get it" and walked away from her, and she came running after me, and when I stopped, she once again jumped back, so I started walking again, and this time she ran past me and stopped in front of me, doing a little doggie dance, as if to say "please, please toss it for me", so I gave in and tossed it, and she ran and grabbed it and ran off with it happy as a clam.

Still no petting allowed, but she is getting a bit better about touching my fingers while she is eating, she really tries not to, I don't know why even that little contact makes her nervous.

Jaegermonster

Jun. 29, 2009, 12:37 AM

our pool is fenced too, with a shadowbox type stockade fence with a gate on each side, in addition to the perimeter fence around our whole 5 acres.
But our dogs are out on the property a great deal, since it's securely fenced, and you never know when the wind might blow a gate or, as happened once, the pool man didn't latch it securely.
Nobody fell in the pool, but there was a bad storm that day and one of the dogs chewed up a door frame and the aluminum siding on the back of the house trying to get in.
But you never know when one might fall in by mistake

of course then there is the litter of foster puppies that we took out there last year and two of them fell in but that is a different story LOL (everybody was fine, they all-7 of them- got adopted but one, his time ran out at Animal Control so he came back here)

that is wonderful progress about your daughter MM. Angel may never be a dog you can just grab up and love on, but she has made remarkable progress.

She may have accidentally nipped someone taking a treat once and been punished for it, that may be why she is so nervous

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 29, 2009, 11:14 AM

that is wonderful progress about your daughter MM. Angel may never be a dog you can just grab up and love on, but she has made remarkable progress.

She may have accidentally nipped someone taking a treat once and been punished for it, that may be why she is so nervous

You might be right, this morning as I was feeding her more turkey, I sort of held onto one piece so that she had to make contact to get it from me, and she was ever so careful to try not to touch me. I did that so I could try to slip a finger under her chin again, but no luck.

She was cute, ate her breakfast, hung out at the barn watching me clean stalls, and then when I went back to the house, I saw her trot out to the far side of the field to hang with the horses. The weather is a little bit cooler today, so she was outside more than hanging out under the trailer.

I think my neighbors have figured out some solution to the newspaper issue, I spotted one neighbor getting his paper from the other neighbors paper box. Which is fine with me, I was getting to be a bit tired of picking up newspapers every day.

alto

Jun. 30, 2009, 03:18 PM

Hi MM

I've lurked on COTH a bit, started reading Angel's story a couple of nights ago - WOW! you have done such a great thing with this dog :D
Course like every other delurker, I'm now gonna throw my 2cents in (yes I did read all 40+ pages ;) )

Turid Rugaas (very basic) article on dog signals:
http://www.canis.no/rugaas/onearticle.php?artid=1

Another website written for shy dog people http://www.geocities.com/wolfdogproject/spooky1

I don't believe that Angel was necessarily abused but rather that she missed out on that important period of socialization so she just doesn't "get it".

Re interacting with your dogs, just bring one dog (whoever is least dog reactive) out with you on a lead, completely ignore Angel, & do some easy FUN "training" stuff with your dog: eg, sit - treat, down - treat, walk with me - treat, tug - treat etc: choose stuff so that your dog looks like he's having a great time.
After a max of 5-10min take your dog back up to the house & carry on with your usual routine - you want her interested & watching & you want to always end sessions before you 'lose' her focus so that she is left with wanting more & you (the leader) have ended whatever game etc is on. You're already doing this some of the time - you want to try & catch her signals so that you are always the one that breaks off first: I know this is counter intuitive to what you've been doing in the beginning (wanting to extend the interaction) but now that you've got her interested in being with you/doing stuff with you, try to move onto the next level: this will pressure her & as long as you move in small enough steps, she will respond; if you push a little too hard & she backs away, just lower your pressure back to her comfort zone & wait awhile before pushing again.

Angel is food motivated, so in the first weeks, use really great stinky treats that Angel never gets - she sees the other dog getting, she smells etc but in order to get those treats, you (ie Angel or any other dog) must do the work first. Much later you can show Angel that dogs work for attention & not just food - part of these initial 'dog training sessions' could include basics like, touch dog on head - treat, touch dog on flank - treat
I don't know if you've done any targeting with your dogs but (since I think while posting) this might be one of the easiest steps for Angel as she is already offering the basics of targeting on her own ...

Sorry not really where I meant to end this post but just got called by my daughter for a pickup :lol:

Anyway I think you are doing an amazing job!
like others I'd go with an oral rabies etc vaccine rather than attempting any sort of negative trapping experience that may lead to the loss of her trust.

Now that I've read to "the end" I'll have to wait impatiently for updates like the rest of the Angel & MM fans ;)

MunchkinsMom

Jun. 30, 2009, 08:52 PM

alto, thanks for a very insightful post. I will read the links and give those techniques a try.

Angel was good today, it was raining the morning, but she did come to the barn (all wet) to get breakfast, and then went back to the vacant farm next door to get out of the rain.

At dinner, she was waiting near the gate because I was later than usual due to work problems that kept me working late. She actually sat tonight to eat the hand fed chicken, but got nervous when one of the horses started to moosey into our area, and when the house dogs came running to the fence barking. So I had her follow me to the other side of the barn to finish.

After the horses were fed, I went out to play fetch with Angel. She loved that, I can get some good distance with the dog size jolly ball, and she runs flat out, then as she gets closer, she starts to hop up and down, ears flapping, it is so cute. Then she pounces on it, and waits for me to approach. However, she cannot snatch and run with the jolly ball, so I get a shot at fetching it and tossing it for her to chase.

After a few rounds of fetch, I told her I had to go eat and I would be back later. While I was eating dinner, I spotted her trotting across the field with the remains of the horse jolly ball, which has been AWOL for a few days. When I finished eating, I went out with a rawhide treat for her, and she loved chasing that and then ran off with her tail in the air. A little while later, I spotted her rolling around with the chewy in her paws.

She really is a happy dog, and I do think that she probably did miss the stage of socialization, at least with humans, and I hope over time that I can overcome that.

I should give you all a heads up, I will be out of town for the long weekend, so there will be no updates from Thurs - Sun this week. But don't worry my mother in law will make sure that Angel has food and water and some one to talk to her.

I'm going to count the sitting at my feet to eat as our baby step for today.

SevenDogs

Jun. 30, 2009, 09:52 PM

She really is a happy dog, and I do think that she probably did miss the stage of socialization, at least with humans, and I hope over time that I can overcome that.

I should give you all a heads up, I will be out of town for the long weekend, so there will be no updates from Thurs - Sun this week. But don't worry my mother in law will make sure that Angel has food and water and some one to talk to her.

I'm going to count the sitting at my feet to eat as our baby step for today.

I think being willing to sit at your feet (which compromises her "get away" ability) is a huge step! Thanks for letting us all know that you will be out of town so we don't worry! :)

harveyhorses

Jul. 1, 2009, 11:05 AM

Have a great holiday!:) Thanks for the heads up.
Maybe it will be good for Angel to see someone else delivering the food, even if not actually interacting.

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 1, 2009, 09:30 PM

Quick update before I go away for the long weekend.

This afternoon my mother-in-law came down to the barn for a dry run on what to do with the horses. Because Angel was hanging around, I brought some turkey. Angel ate a few bits from me while my MIL was standing there, but then she walked away. So we went into the barn, put the horses in their stalls for lunch, and Angel came and stood at the end of the barn near the tack room and watched us. Every so often she would cock her head listening to us talk.

Three hours later another neighbor came over so I could show him where everything was for stall cleaning. Once again Angel came out from under the trailer and layed where she could watch us. So, perhaps she is getting used to other people coming to the barn. I'll have to ask them both how she was while I was gone, it will be interesting to see if she acts differently when I am not there.

After dinner, I had to mow more pasture, and Angel layed in the field watching and snoozing. The mower does not seem to bother her in the least. When I finished, I brought out a beggin strip and tossed it for her, and then walked up to her (since she was standing where it was, but not eating it). I tried an experiment, I started panting like a dog, and she cocked her head from side to side, but she also tucked her tail and raised the fur on her back, and then walked away from the treat. So I picked it up and talked to her in my normal voice, and tossed it for her to fetch, and all was right in her world again

So much for trying to speak in her language!

Hope you all have a safe and happy 4th of July, I'll be back on Sunday.

Blacklabs

Jul. 1, 2009, 10:36 PM

Have a good time and will be waiting for the adventures of Angel. :lol:

allpurpose

Jul. 1, 2009, 11:42 PM

I tried an experiment, I started panting like a dog, and she cocked her head from side to side, but she also tucked her tail and raised the fur on her back, and then walked away from the treat. So I picked it up and talked to her in my normal voice, and tossed it for her to fetch, and all was right in her world again

So much for trying to speak in her language!

Hope you all have a safe and happy 4th of July, I'll be back on Sunday.

I wonder what it was that you said to her! :lol::lol::lol:

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 5, 2009, 09:13 PM

I wonder what it was that you said to her! :lol::lol::lol:

I have no idea, I tried panting in a happy tone, guess I failed!

I had positive feedback from my MIL while I was gone. Angel would come in and eat while she was feeding the horses, and would lay around watching her do barn work, like filling water buckets, etc. I don't know if she tried to interact with my stall cleaning neighbor or not, I forgot to ask him when I called to thank him today.

My biggest positive was when I got home, actually for dinner feeding. I got home at noon, and went down to give the horses lunch, I brought treats in case Angel was around, and she was, but it was hot, so she was laying under the trailer, and she looked at me, but didn't come out.

At dinner, she was laying in the sand outside the barn, I called her, and she stood up and wagged her tail, and sang for me, and when I got close with the turkey, she took one piece, and then she actually sniffed my leg for about 15 seconds. That was the first time she ever did that.

I do think she was happy to see me, she came right in to eat, played in the water from the hose, played a game of fetch, and when I was ready to go back to the house, I tossed her a rawhide chew, and she was really happy about that, she was running and tossing it in the air, and having a welcome home party for me.

I was happy that she was comfortable with my MIL. Yesterday they had one leftover sausage from dinner, so my MIL brought it down and was tossing it for Angel, and doing what I used to do, tossing the bits a little closer each toss, but just like she used to do with me, once it was too close for her to be comfortable, she would not come get it untl my MIL walked away.

However, I forgot to tell my MIL about the "greeting" bark, I guess after the sausage yesterday, this morning when my MIL went down to feed, Angel ran towards her and barked, and it made my MIL a bit nervous, but she still talked to Angel, and then Angel came in to eat her food, so all was well.

Jaegermonster

Jul. 5, 2009, 10:38 PM

That's great MM. I needed some good news today.
I think it is very positive that she is comfortable around "strangers" (relatively speaking)

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 5, 2009, 10:48 PM

That's great MM. I needed some good news today.
I think it is very positive that she is comfortable around "strangers" (relatively speaking)

And of course no pun intended, right :lol:?

I thought the leg sniffing was also very positive, it was like how my house dogs sniff me all over when I have been away for a day or more.

Jaegermonster

Jul. 5, 2009, 10:55 PM

when I was typing it I realized the pun :)
my dogs do that too, kind of like "where have you been? You cheated on us" LOL

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 5, 2009, 11:01 PM

when I was typing it I realized the pun :)
my dogs do that too, kind of like "where have you been? You cheated on us" LOL

I liked the pun!

I'm surprised my house dogs have not been rummaging through my suitcase to sniff my clothes yet, one day of vacation was spent at my best friends barn up in MA, and I had her two dogs all over me, and I was loving it.

SevenDogs

Jul. 6, 2009, 12:06 AM

I thought the leg sniffing was also very positive, it was like how my house dogs sniff me all over when I have been away for a day or more.

Sniffing your leg -- HUGE!! :yes: :) :yes:

Welcome Home!

MHM

Jul. 6, 2009, 09:48 AM

Glad you're home, and that things went smoothly over the weekend.

I was going through Angel update withdrawal! :lol:

Addison

Jul. 7, 2009, 08:41 AM

It's funny how much a blog about a little dog that needs help and one generous soul can make so many people feel good about their day!

Keep up the good work Munchkin!!

harveyhorses

Jul. 7, 2009, 09:15 AM

It's funny how much a blog about a little dog that needs help and one generous soul can make so many people feel good about their day!

Keep up the good work Munchkin!!

Welcome home, hope you had a great vacation, but really happy you are back.

3horsemom

Jul. 7, 2009, 10:12 AM

even tho you said you were going, i still clicked on this forum in spite of myself! how dumb am i?...please do not answer:) hope you had a great trip.

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 7, 2009, 03:30 PM

Aww, you guys made me blush! Thanks for all the good wishes and kind words.

I did have a good brief vacation, now I need to rest up, it was a bit hectic, and I missed all my animals. One of the house dogs is laying with her head on the legs of my chair, so I have to move carefully.

Angel was funny this morning, she came halfway to me to get the turkey, and she sniffed my shoe today. When her treats were done, I went to put the horses in their stalls for breakfast, and I guess Munchkin was a bit slow, so Angel barked at his heels as if to tell him to hurry up. Maybe she thought she was helping?

She also came into the barn at lunchtime, and then just hung around while I quickly doled out lunch to the horses.

I think she sniffed my shoe today because yesterday I was away for lunch and dinner.

Jaegermonster

Jul. 7, 2009, 03:34 PM

Please keep the good news coming. I really need it. And some new pictures would be appreciated as well. Ahem.

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 7, 2009, 03:55 PM

Ok, I can take the hint, let me charge up that camera battery again, it might be a day or two.

I forgot to tell you this one. While I was gone for 3 days, Angel took some of the toys from the barn, and they were no where to be found in the field. I told her she needed to bring the toys home.

Well, today, one of the MIA toys was back in the field! Along with one of the newspapers. However, she didn't chew up the paper, she just pulled the plastic off, so I found another plastic bag, and put the paper in it, and put it back on the key pad in case someone wanted a paper.

Jaegermonster

Jul. 7, 2009, 03:57 PM

OMG that's too funny.
And I don't know what to think now that the neighbors all know where the newspaper bandit lives. Maybe we should start calling her Bandit? LOL

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 8, 2009, 02:33 PM

Oh that is funny. I would consider it, but my brother-in-law had a dog named Bandit, and it might make him sad. Besides, she knows her name now, might confuse her to call her something else.

Last night at dinner time, my Dad and his wife came for an overnight visit, and came to the barn to help feed the horses. Angel thought they were interesting, and she would eat from my hand, but only if the family stayed at a safe distance. My Dad tried coming closer, but she got wise to that.

So, while I was feeding, he sat down in the barn aisle to see if she would come to investigate, but no, she just layed in the sand staring at him. Even if he tossed treats to her, she would only eat them if he was not looking at her.

I did take it as a good sign that she is not running away when I have other people in the barn now, that she stays to watch, and will still eat from my hand. She did the same thing this morning, ate while he was there, but again, at a safe distance. She did come in to "steal" some treats from her bowl while we were in the barn, so I think she is getting to be a bit braver.

Right now we are having an all day rain event, and she is just hanging out in the rain with the horses.

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 9, 2009, 12:38 PM

Last night, dinner was late at the barn, and Angel was waiting patiently with the horses. She ate from my hand, and didn't even stop when one of my neighbors stopped in her car to just watch and give me a congratulatory shout out and thumbs up. Usually that makes her nervous.

Angel has also brought home all her toys that she had taken away while I was out of town. So after everyone ate, I went out to play with her for a bit. She was only interested in playing two rounds of fetch. After that I tossed her a rawhide chew thing, and that she really liked.

This morning as I was feeding, my neighbor was out walking with his 4 month old GSD (who is very cute), and Angel just laid in the field watching as I was chatting over the fence. While we were chatting, the puppy came into the field under the fence, and walked about 15 feet towards Angel, who did not even get up. I mananged to get ahold of him before we had any issues, but the funny part was after I got him back under the fence to his owner, he didn't want to go home, he parked himself outside the fence and would not budge!

She does watch him alot (and I think he has been neutered already), they would make some cute puppies, but I don't want to have to deal with that!

MHM

Jul. 9, 2009, 01:12 PM

Maybe if Angel and the neighbor's puppy had play dates, you could join in and get her more comfortable with human contact. If she sees you playing with the puppy, that might help her get the idea. :)

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 9, 2009, 07:49 PM

Actually we are all very surprised that she does not go into the neighbors yard since they got the pup, so we are not sure how she would react to him. Usually she goes to sniff where he has been after we all clear out. I was in too much of a rush (more darned deadlines and meetings) to stand and watch to see if she went to check out the spot or not.

I have to tell you it is very cool to have a dog that just lays in the field while I do barn chores. Tonight was more mowing (I prayed for rain, and now I pay the price for the answered prayer with amazing grass), and she just lays there sleeping and watching as I go back and forth with the mower.

When I got done, I grabbed another rawhide treat, and had her follow me around a bit before I tossed it for her.

She did sniff my leg again today, and licked my finger because I had sesame chicken sauce on them. But she only sniffed once, and only licked once, but that is still progress.

SevenDogs

Jul. 10, 2009, 01:21 AM

She did sniff my leg again today, and licked my finger because I had sesame chicken sauce on them. But she only sniffed once, and only licked once, but that is still progress.

Big progress... AGAIN! :yes: :) :yes:

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 10, 2009, 12:24 PM

I agree that we make a tiny bit of progress almost every day, but this is taking soooo loooong!

Guess I need to put on my thinking cap and try to think of other things I can do to make her more trusting.

Maybe I need to write to Cesar Milan asking for advice?

Nothing major to report this morning, same routine, she comes to me, tail wagging, singing, eats from my hand, but flinches back if I even try to flick a finger under her chin.

Jaegermonster

Jul. 10, 2009, 09:10 PM

I definitely think the Cesar Milan thing is a good idea. It's a great story and he would probably love to give it a shot. This is a very unique and challenging story.
Keep the good news coming.

fivehorses

Jul. 10, 2009, 09:23 PM

what about trying to touch her somewhere else?

Maybe teach her a new game or lesson.
Such as Sit, and then she gets a bit of food.
If she lays down or does something often enough, associate that with the word command and then reward her. It might be hard to teach sit, when you can't touch her bum to get her to sit. Maybe now you could do Angel Come, and have her come to you to get the reward. In other words, start putting expectations on her of do something, get rewarded. not that she hasn't been brave to let you get as close as you have.

I know with rosie, ears, and neck are off limits, but her butt, back and face are ok. Its wierd. I can now scratch her neck ok, but her poll and ears are still no go. So, maybe your girl doesn't like a scratch under the chin, but would be more approachable somewhere else?

I would write cesar milan...can't hurt, right. Won't it be nice to get a monty or some other horse person who can gentle a horse in a half hour and get on and ride them. Are there any dog people who could gentle a dog, and have him getting pet and sitting at your feet in a half hour???!

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 10, 2009, 11:49 PM

I accidentally did some training tonight, similar to your suggestions. It was raining at dinner, so once I got the horses situated and fed, I braved the rain and went out to where Angel was laying, because she didn't come to the barn when I called her.

Because of the rain, I gave her one piece of chicken, turned and said, come, come Angel, and started walking back to the barn. She followed for about 10 feet and stopped. So, I went back again, gave her one more piece of chicken, and turned to go back to the barn, again saying, come, come Angel. This time she did follow me all the way to the barn, but not inside. So I gave her one more piece and then put the rest in her bowl, which she then came in and ate. So, I think that was teaching her to come?

I just finished watching 3 hours of Cesar, interesting episodes, but nothing that I could use in the case of a fearful loose dog! Other than a reminder to be cognizant of my "energy" when I am around her.

I'll have to check out his website, see if there is a contact/email address there.

I've tried to reach out to give her a butt-scratch, but she scoots away whenever I reach my hand out - except if there is food in it that is.

Susan P

Jul. 11, 2009, 12:27 AM

Do you every have 20 minutes to just sit and let her approach you? It sounds like you've come so far, and it really doesn't seem like it's taken a very long time. Some anmals that are afraid never come around. I've seen a stray that would come for my cat's food so I put out dog food in case he comes around when I'm not there and I don't know if it's the fox or the dog, but the food is always gone. The cat food is usually gone too but I'm hoping the fox and whoever leave my cats alone. This stray really needs to be gotten, he's badly matted and would need to be knocked out and shaved. But if I say one word he just runs away. I haven't gotten anywhere near him. He would either need to be shot with a tranq or trapped and he's a big dog so I can't do that. He may be a Labradoodle. Poor thing. I just have no clue where he goes.

EponaRoan

Jul. 11, 2009, 01:29 AM

I just finished watching 3 hours of Cesar, interesting episodes, but nothing that I could use in the case of a fearful loose dog! Other than a reminder to be cognizant of my "energy" when I am around her

Try some visualization to get your energy/body language right. See her coming to you and sitting to get a treat. See your hand reaching out and petting her. See her sitting and wagging in response. Do it while you are interacting with her.

fivehorses

Jul. 11, 2009, 08:23 AM

MM, I think that was a good start...the come.

Its not just the training to a command that is important in my opinion, but also the assertion of your role as leader.

A dog I have been told looks to us as providers of their food, the leader of the pack so to speak. So, I think that was good, Angel come, she gets food.
You might have to go back to give it to her, but eventually, go 3/4 ways back, 1/2 way, etc, until you call, she comes.
I think sit would be easy once the come is done, since most dogs sit when they want food from you.

Another thing, let her lick you, etc. I think that is also submissiveness in a pack mentality. Angel seems very aware of dog/pack behavior, demonstrating not going into the yard of the new pup.
I would even put a bit of chicken grease on my forearm so she has to get even closer to you.
You will get there, some take more time than others. You must remember the Lord's lesson of teaching patience to Job...well, seems like you are learning that lesson, eh! She sounds like such a challenge, but well worth it. You must be proud of how far you and she have come.

fivehorses

Jul. 11, 2009, 08:26 AM

I may have missed this.
Are there oral birth control for dogs that you could give?

I know the whole goal was to get her fixed, vaccinated, etc, but wondered the status on oral bc for dogs.

Blacklabs

Jul. 11, 2009, 09:54 AM

Are there oral birth control for dogs that you could give?

There is in liquid and oral form, side effect profile is high but they do have them.
I have also seen where Depo has been used but requires a injection, so not a option for Angel.

Here's links

http://dogs.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Birth_Control_Pills_for_Dogs
http://www.rxnations.com/animal.php

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 11, 2009, 09:46 PM

Thanks for the suggestions and info on the oral BC - from the sounds of the side effects, I think I will take my chances until we can get her caught.

I'll see if I can find even 10 minutes to spare to just sit in the barn, it is just so hard with my schedule and all the chores that have to be done.

I do want to share today's progress. She has been following me more for the food, and coming when I call her.

Tonight after I fed the horses and Angel, I was doing some deep stall cleaning (one of my weekend chores). As I was cleaning, I could hear the snap and the latch rattling on the tack room, and then the door opened. I thought "geeze, that horse is getting good at getting it open" and looked up and noticed my neighbor (who had not seen me in the stall) who was dropping off a bag of horse treats as a thank-you for a favor I had done for her yesterday. So we gave some of the treats to the horses, and stood and chatted for at bit.

She told me that Angel followed her across the pasture to the barn, and congratulated me on how far I have come with her. Here is the interesting part, as we stood and chatted for at least 10 minutes, Angel laid practically at our feet (seriously, only about 2 feet from me), and just watched us talk. I think I'm going to count that as our progress for today.

After I finished my chores, (Angel laid outside watching me for the whole time), I brought her a rawhide treat, made her follow me for a bit, then tossed it. She ran off with it to the middle of the field, and was rolling around upside down with it, happy to have it.

Later she came back and was laying near the house side of the pasture. I talked to her throught the fence, and then went to eat my own dinner. Funny how the animals always get taken care of first!

suze

Jul. 11, 2009, 11:53 PM

That's great progress - she's getting so much more relaxed!

carla54

Jul. 12, 2009, 12:24 AM

suze

Jul. 12, 2009, 11:20 AM

I'm going to try those - I know our two will love it.

Jaegermonster

Jul. 12, 2009, 09:44 PM

Just read in a magazine about an interesting treat you may want to try for Angel. You put some low sodium chicken broth into a popsicle tray. Cover with aluminum foil, then poke a rawhide stick into each compartment. Freeze and remove a pupsicle as needed. Maybe on those hot hot days, she would really enjoy it!

Hey! They stole my idea! I have been doing that for years for my rescues and esp sick fosters.
I was featured on the news with one my cases I made at work and talked about the "pupsicles". The article is even still on the website. THere is even a video of me feeding them to her. Harumph.

But she's right, dogs do really like those, and it's a good way to get at least a little nutrition into a sick dog too.

fivehorses

Jul. 12, 2009, 10:53 PM

Angel cracks me up. She is so attuned to you. She has been feral so long, and is now attemping to become tame. On the edge, almost there.
You are making such progress, and when she does come along, it will be like she always has been in your pocket.
I didn't read about the side affects of bc, but from your post it sounds bad and not a good choice.
Angel will come around. She really is just about there.
keep up the do something and then you get rewarded, rather than just randomly rewarding her for just being around. She already has learned being around is good.
you're getting there, and as the song says, the darkest hour is just before dawn.

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 13, 2009, 12:17 AM

Thanks once again everyone for your words of encouragement. I did the "reward" method today with the food, having Angel follow me around to get the chicken treats, and she is getting better about it. Occasionally she would stop and I would have to go back to her to entice her to follow more. This evening I had her follow me for a total of over 200 feet, so she is getting the hang of it.

I like the "pupsicle" idea, will have to give it a try. My family will think I am starting to lose my marbles, but whatever works.

I have to tell you, it is really peaceful doing barn chores, with the horses grazing and Angel laying in the field. Tonight I had to do more mowing (darned horses are not eating the grass fast enough), and the horses were grazing, and Angel was sleeping flat out in the field the whole time. Sort of like the house dogs sleeping while I work.

Blinkers On

Jul. 13, 2009, 12:22 AM

Hot dog! this has been the neatest thread to read since forever. Congrats

SevenDogs

Jul. 13, 2009, 12:24 AM

I have to tell you, it is really peaceful doing barn chores, with the horses grazing and Angel laying in the field. Tonight I had to do more mowing (darned horses are not eating the grass fast enough), and the horses were grazing, and Angel was sleeping flat out in the field the whole time. Sort of like the house dogs sleeping while I work.

:)

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 13, 2009, 10:40 AM

The one downside to a full time barn dog - she chewed up one of the leather halters last night. I leave them hanging on rubber hooks outside each stall along with a lead rope.

It is possible that one of the horses knocked it off the hook while using it as a scratching post, not really sure, but I was a bit annoyed (luckily I have one spare and will have to order more).

However, on a possitive note, she has been coming into the barn more while we are all in there, usually when the horses are in their stalls, I see her walking in the aisle checking things out.

She was good again this morning, more following when I called her, and now when she is waiting for her food in the tack room, I can walk right past her, and she doesn't flinch as much.

CB/TB

Jul. 13, 2009, 02:35 PM

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 13, 2009, 03:18 PM

Maybe a little "spritz" of Bitter Apple or No Chew stuff on each halter or piece of leather might deter her appeitie for leather. She's making such progress now. The "pupsicles" sound like a good idea. Making your own "frosty paws' in assorted flavors!

Thanks, I might have to give that a try. There might be a bonus in that maybe when the horses are wearing them they will stop playing halter tag? It has been so hot that I don't put them on for turnout anymore, and so far the horses seem to be keeping their fly masks on without the halters over them (darn, probably just jinxed myself!).

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 14, 2009, 11:06 AM

Quick update before I get mired down in my day job tasks.

This morning I was in a bit of a rush, and late on top of it all, Angel was sleeping under the horse trailer when I got to the barn. She had polished off all the dry dog food in the tack room, I guess she got tired of waiting for me this morning.

So, as I was rounding up the horses and getting them into their own stalls for breakfast, Angel came into the barn looking for me and food of course. I was able to hand feed her right in the barn today, and I worked on enticing her to follow me into the tack room. She did not come all the way in while I was hand feeding her, but she did come right in as soon as I started getting the horse's breakfast ready, and let me walk right past her without running outside.

Then she would walk a lap around the barn and come back to see if I had put anything else in her bowl. It was cute!

Jaegermonster

Jul. 14, 2009, 04:47 PM

her, but she did come right in as soon as I started getting the horse's breakfast ready, and let me walk right past her without running outside.

MM,this is HUGE!

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 14, 2009, 09:02 PM

I think Angel is making a few more breakthroughs. This morning she came running to me, and followed me around a bit.

But it was this evening that really brought it home. At dinner time she came right out from under the trailer, ran to me, with tail wagging, wagged her tail the whole time I was hand feeding her, followed me when I called her, and sat at my feet to eat.

Then I had more mowing to do, and after that was done, I gave her the rawhide treat and came in to have my own dinner. About 15 minutes after I came to the house, I heard the house dogs barking in the yard, so I went out to see, and Angel was standing in the driveway. So, I went outside, and called her, and she started wagging her tail as soon as she heard my voice. I went outside the yard, and talked to my house dogs througth the fence, and petted them and made a big show of interacting with them and Angel stood and watched it all. But when I got close to her, she went back under the fence into the pasture. I went into the pasture, and she followed me halfway to the barn to get another treat.

I think the tail wagging and following is a good sign.

I did tell the house dogs that they should send Angel some mental images of how good life is in this house. Of course they just stared at me :D

MHM

Jul. 14, 2009, 09:47 PM

I did tell the house dogs that they should send Angel some mental images of how good life is in this house. Of course they just stared at me :D

Good for Angel!:)

I'll bet the house dogs are thinking, "No way! She already hogs all the attention and the best treats as it is!" :lol:

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 14, 2009, 11:26 PM

I'll bet the house dogs are thinking, "No way! She already hogs all the attention and the best treats as it is!" :lol:

Maybe. . . but then again, they get to cower under my desk during thunderstorms (I had 3 of them crammed under here today) and she has to bolt for the vacant farm next door. And they get to sleep on all the furniture. . . and beg shamelessly for biscuits whenever any human steps foot into the kitchen.

3horsemom

Jul. 15, 2009, 12:06 AM

does not sound as if any of your dogs are hurting for affection, attention or food!!
this is exciting that angel is so much more relaxed. hopefully underneath your desk will get more crowded real soon.

onetrickpony

Jul. 15, 2009, 01:13 AM

She did not come all the way in while I was hand feeding her, but she did come right in as soon as I started getting the horse's breakfast ready, and let me walk right past her without running outside.

One of the things that has struck me about a lot of your posts is that you often mention how close she lets you get to her when you're walking by. Have you ever tried "accidentally" brushing against her in passing? Like, just walk so closely by her that your leg grazes her side or back end? I think that doing this would help acclimate her to more human contact and help bridge the gap between hand feeding and actually petting her.

If you were to try this, I would make sure to do it in the normal course of chores and WITHOUT bending over, looking down at her, or paying any attention to her whatsoever. It seems like when you're preoccupied with other activities, such as taking grain from the feed room to the stalls, that she is most comfortable and lets her guard down. So maybe act like you're preoccupied but purposely start invading her space a little more. Obviously, this will only work if she is standing up versus lying down. But it's something new to try, perhaps?

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 15, 2009, 11:58 AM

One of the things that has struck me about a lot of your posts is that you often mention how close she lets you get to her when you're walking by. Have you ever tried "accidentally" brushing against her in passing? Like, just walk so closely by her that your leg grazes her side or back end? I think that doing this would help acclimate her to more human contact and help bridge the gap between hand feeding and actually petting her.

If you were to try this, I would make sure to do it in the normal course of chores and WITHOUT bending over, looking down at her, or paying any attention to her whatsoever. It seems like when you're preoccupied with other activities, such as taking grain from the feed room to the stalls, that she is most comfortable and lets her guard down. So maybe act like you're preoccupied but purposely start invading her space a little more. Obviously, this will only work if she is standing up versus lying down. But it's something new to try, perhaps?

I have thought of it and tried it, and continue to try it, but either this dog is a mind reader, or incredibly attuned to body language. She manages to either jump sideways or move just enought to maintain her "buffer" of comfort. Which granted is getting smaller and smaller every day, I do have to remind myself that her buffer at this time last year was at least 500 feet! Now it is about 3 inches. It cracks me up, because I am always almost tripping over the house dogs - they have no buffer whatsoever, yet Angel is never underfoot, at least not yet.

My new thing now is to get her to eat from my hand in the barn. This morning she did, but with only her two front feet in the barn, and I tell you she can really stretch her body out to reach for them before she will take a step forward, it is pretty funny.

So I did that this moring, and then put the rest of the chicken in her bowl, and she then came right in and ate with me standing about 5 feet away and talking to her. This was a change from her usual chipmunk routine.

Then she did her usual walking around, checking things out. One of my neighbors stopped to chat, and while we were at the fenceline, Angel was just laying in the barn, watching. He commented that everyone else has barn cats, and I have a barn dog instead.

SED

Jul. 15, 2009, 09:37 PM

I know its frustrating that progress isn't as fast as you would like, but to those of us reading, the progress is real and we love to hear about it.

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 15, 2009, 10:10 PM

Thanks. I'm doing my best to not be too frustrated because I think that is counter productive in this situation.

It really wams my heart when she greets me with a wagging tail, or when she sings for me, and when I can hear her panting happily behind me as she follows me.

Tonight I caught her playing in the hose again, she is funny, she likes to just stand in the spray, sort of like a shower massage.

Not to much to report, just more of the same.

lcw579

Jul. 15, 2009, 10:56 PM

MM, your "more of the same's" are always enjoyable and appreciated. I find myself checking this thread throughout the day whenever I have a few spare moments. You have come so far with Angel. I am in awe of your patience.

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 16, 2009, 10:20 AM

Some days Angel is a bit of a mystery. This morning as I headed to the barn, I did not see her in any of her usual spots, and she did not come running to greet me, but two minutes later as I was in the tack room, there she was at the door, waiting for her breakfast treats.

She did come further into the barn this morning to get hand fed her chicken treats.

One other thing I do is put a dog biscuit into her food bowl each time I go into the tack room, and then she comes in to get it, and runs outside to eat it in the grass. Then she comes back to see if I have put another one in the bowl.

She is funny, she will eat some things from my hand, like people food, but will not take any thing else, like a biscuit or a beggin strip. I can't figure that one out at all.

I'll just keep plugging away at this, chipping away at her barriers tiny bits at a time.

Blacklabs

Jul. 16, 2009, 03:00 PM

Long Spot

Jul. 16, 2009, 03:44 PM

She's obviously close enough to hear you or smell you when that happens!

I've so enjoyed this thread MM. I just dove into it on Monday or so. I'm finally caught up and just wanted to say what an amazing thing you are doing. So glad Angel found you. She's a lovely girl, and sounds so happy with the turn her life has taken, even if she is having inner battles about what it really means (trust).

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 16, 2009, 11:13 PM

Any chance she's in the barn sleeping somewhere? I know in the past she hasn't been but wondering with all the progress she has made if she feels most comfortable sleeping in there.

Sure would be nice if she is.

Thanks for sharing Angel

Thanks right back to all of you for reading her story, and giving me the encouragement to keep at it.

I have not seen any signs that she sleeps in the barn, I have seen her sometimes sleeping in the pasture near the barn at night, and under the horse trailer during the day. I will have try to entice her to sleep in there this winter when it gets cold. I wonder if I put a dog house type thing in the tack room if she would use it. Maybe if I started putting food into it. Oh, maybe I need to get my big airline dog crate back from the neighbors, take the door off, and put that in there. That might work! And maybe if she starts to think of that as her den, I can eventually close her into it. hummm.....

I really do need to get the camera out again. I bought a boat load of dog treats at the store today. After everyone was fed and the chores done, I opened the bag of rawhide bones. Angel was standing in the tack room doorway when I took one out, and she got so excited. She actually jumps into the air, and spins around! So I made her follow me out to the field, and tossed it as far as I could, and she bounded after it, ran around me a few times with it, and then settled down for a good chew session. What is the cutest is when she lays belly side up with the chewy in her front paws.

As I was heading back to the house, I stopped to pull up a few weeds, and as I stood up, Angel was behind me with the chewy in her teeth, looking at me as if to say "thanks Mom!". I turned and said "What have you got?" and she wagged her tail and then ran away playfully.

A while later I spotted her buring it in the mulch along the fenceline, I guess it was more than she could chew in one sitting.

lcw579

Jul. 17, 2009, 09:24 AM

Great story today - and now you've promised more pictures too!

I love it when my dogs lie on their backs with their chewies too. So cute and goofy looking.

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 17, 2009, 01:57 PM

Thanks for the reminder (I had to put the one good camera battery back on the charger, I really need either new batteries or a new camera - guess it depends on the cost of each).

This morning, I got Angel to come into the barn aisle with me, about 1/4 of the way in (12 feet), by enticing her with food. I figure if I can get her to be more comfortable about being in the barn while the horses are in their stalls and I am around, it might help her to want to stay in the barn when the weather is bad.

She really is funny with the treats. She comes in to eat her food in the tack room, then stands and waits for me to put treats in the bowl. As soon as I put one in, she snags it and runs out with her tail waving in the air (she used to slink out with her tail between her legs a few months ago), and eats it on the grass. Then she comes back to see when the next one will be dropped in.

SevenDogs

Jul. 17, 2009, 07:33 PM

As soon as I put one in, she snags it and runs out with her tail waving in the air (she used to slink out with her tail between her legs a few months ago)....

These are the types of signs of major progress in her comfort level! We all want to be able to touch and love on them (and you WILL get there), but things like this are really BIG! :yes:

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 17, 2009, 10:18 PM

These are the types of signs of major progress in her comfort level! We all want to be able to touch and love on them (and you WILL get there), but things like this are really BIG! :yes:

I was thinking the same thing, so hopefully it won't be too many more of these baby steps before she decides that physical contact is ok.

Tonight we had steak for dinner, so I made sure to safe enough from my plate for her. Boy, did she ever sing for that! And she did come into the doorway of the tack room to eat from my hand. Then she did more of her "sneak a treat" routine, which she seems to enjoy.

Then I remembered that I promised everyone some new pictures, so I got the camera, and headed back to the barn, where Angel was still waiting for me (or maybe for the rawhide chew treat). So, I got some photos of her, added them to the end of the existing album that I have of her. The new photos are the last 7 in the album.

http://www.PictureTrail.com/gid22112544

I tried my best to get a picture of her upside down with the chewy, but no luck. She did a quick rollover and then jumped up and ran around me with her treat, and plopped down to chew some more.

While she was enjoying her treat, I mowed more of the field, and she once again rested in the pasture with the horses while was mowing. She is not nervous about the mowing, because she was laying flat out most of the time that I was mowing.

Then when I finished, I went out with the camera again to get a picture of her. She got up, stretched and yawned, and then came over to me, with her tail wagging.

Hopefully one of these days, she will surprise me again, and just come right up to me, and maybe sniff me.

Jaegermonster

Jul. 17, 2009, 10:28 PM

Awwwwwww :)

I think she looks much happier and more relaxed. I really liked the one where she's running
she looks fatter too LOL

tobruk

Jul. 17, 2009, 10:29 PM

Those are pictures of a very happy, happy dog. Keep it up.

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 17, 2009, 10:32 PM

It is really hard to get an action picture of her with a digital camera. She does seem to be happier and more at ease. Not 100% yet, but a little bit every day.

SevenDogs

Jul. 17, 2009, 10:37 PM

Oh, she is sooooooooooo cute! LOVE the ears~ It's amazingly different -- she looks so much more confident in the more recent pictures! I love the last shot!

MHM

Jul. 17, 2009, 11:45 PM

Love the new pics! Thanks for posting them. :)

suze

Jul. 17, 2009, 11:53 PM

What a great smile on her face in that last pic! You're getting there, I'm sure.

Blacklabs

Jul. 18, 2009, 06:47 AM

WOW, she looks great and so much more at ease and happy to be at her new home.

Angel is so darn cute!!! :lol:

Indy

Jul. 18, 2009, 08:20 AM

Love the new photos! She looks like such a happy dog.

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 18, 2009, 11:03 AM

Have to tell you this morning's adventure.

First, all was normal, I went with the chicken in hand, Angel came halfway to greet me, I gave her one bit, and headed into the barn with the rest. I was in a bit of a rush because the blacksmith was due any minute. She did follow me to the barn aisle, then came around the barn to the tack room side - I think she doesn't like to try to come in the barn aisle until the horses are locked in their stalls.

Well, as I was about to start scooping the horse feed, and Angel was eating her chicken from the bowl, I hear the truck, so I went back out to open the gate for the farrier. As he headed up to the barn, I could see Angel in the aisle, heading in my direction, and she was heading straight into the path of the truck. So I shouted "Angel, No!" to her, which caused the farrier to slow down (not that he was driving that fast anyway), and she scooted in front of the truck.

Then she circled behind the truck, sniffing. Probably because my farrier brings his big lovable rottie with him. The farrier did say "well, I see someone is getting to be a bit friendlier".

Angel then ran around to the other side of the barn so she could see through the aisle. When the farrier let his dog out, and tied him up, Angel started barking as soon as the rottie stepped into the barn aisle. She barked at him for at least 2 minutes, didn't even stop when I brought out a dog biscuit for both her and the rottie.

However, since the rottie didn't respond to her verbal attack (he just sat and watched her), she laid down right outside the barn and watched him for about 5 minutes, probably to make sure he was not going to come eat her food. Then she went out to her position on the fence line, where she can keep an eye on things, yet be in the shade. I think if it had not been so sunny she might have stayed up near the barn, but it gets hot in the sand pit in the morning.

It was funny, the farrier thought she was saying hello, I said, no, that is not her hello voice, that is her guard dog voice, because it was her "alert" tone, not her roo-roo "hello" tone.

After the farrier left, Angel came trotting right into the barn, to sniff all over where the rottie had been.

I guess she thinks the barn is her property (good thing). And it tells me that I might as well not bother trying to bring the house dogs down to the barn, since she will view it as an intrusion onto her territory. I will continue to use every chance for her to watch me interact with the house dogs, but inside their territory.

3Dogs

Jul. 18, 2009, 11:23 AM

LLDM

Jul. 18, 2009, 12:19 PM

She is definitely much "softer" in her eyes and in her overall demeanor in this last set of pics! She's lost that hyper-vigilant, ready to flee thing.

I think she has done an amazing job of training you just the way she wants. :D And, after all, isn't that why we have animals? So they can train us to be better providers and better people?

So, if I may say on behalf of Angel and all of us, Good Girl MM, Very Good Girl! :winkgrin:

Thanks so much for this thread and sharing your adventures.

SCFarm

FalseImpression

Jul. 18, 2009, 12:21 PM

There is definitely a smile on her face now!! Good work!!!

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 18, 2009, 04:44 PM

again, checking into my favorite thread.

wonderful pictures - neat dog! Still think there is a book in here!:yes:

thanks - again - MunchinsMom - and looking at your place, heck, want to adopt a human too??? :D:lol:

Never fear, I have not forgotten the book that will come of this.

And thanks for the compliment on the farm, I have been here five years, and still love every single day, this is a dream come true for me.

Just to let you know LLDM, ALL my animals have me trained, the 4 house dogs, and the 3 horses.

Time to go warm up some leftover steak for Angel.

AiryFairy

Jul. 18, 2009, 08:26 PM

That last picture is worth it all - what a sweet expression.

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 18, 2009, 09:01 PM

Angel loved the warmed up leftover steak again tonight.

My favorite part was after I had given her a rawhide chewy, and finished by barn chores for the evening. I spotted her on the fenceline quite a distance from the barn, I called her name, and she perked her head up - I called her again, and she came running full speed back to me!

Of course I had to give her a biscuit, and she actually took it from my hand right in the barn.

Buffyblue

Jul. 18, 2009, 09:50 PM

Wow, you can really see the difference in her from the first photos! The last picture says it all!

SevenDogs

Jul. 19, 2009, 12:56 AM

My favorite part was after I had given her a rawhide chewy, and finished by barn chores for the evening. I spotted her on the fenceline quite a distance from the barn, I called her name, and she perked her head up - I called her again, and she came running full speed back to me!

Of course I had to give her a biscuit, and she actually took it from my hand right in the barn.

Awwwwwww......! :)

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 19, 2009, 09:23 PM

More baby steps today. This morning Angel ate from my hand again inside the barn (chicken for breakfast). On my way back to the house, I stopped to hand pick a few weeds, and when I stood up, Angel was about 10 feet behind me. I asked her if she wanted to come up to the house, but she just stood there of course.

A short time later my mother-in-law left to go to the grocery store. When she came home, she told me she saw Angel out in the road, so she stopped and rolled down her window and told Angel to get out of the road and come home. Amazingly, she did! My mother-in-law was worried, but I told her that if Angel has manage to not get hit in the 14 months that she has been here, that hopefully her good luck and sense will keep her safe.

Angel did come out at lunchtime also, I had been mowing for the two hours before that, and she heard me come back on the tractor and came out from under the trailer to say hello and to see if anymore treats were on their way.

At dinner, she came into the tack room to eat the steak from my hand, and after dinner she actually left her chew toy to come play in the hose, while I was holding it. That was the first time that she did that.

So, little by little, she is gaining courage and trust.

SOTB

Jul. 20, 2009, 11:31 AM

I've been silently following this thread and I just have to comment on how happy she looks in your recent photos! She looks like a healthy, happy and content dog who has found a home. She has a twinkle in her eye - you're doing a wonderful job!

starrysky

Jul. 20, 2009, 12:30 PM

Angel looks so happy in the new photos! :winkgrin:

BasqueMom

Jul. 20, 2009, 03:37 PM

The last picture says it all....happy, happy dog!

Horse with No Name

Jul. 21, 2009, 01:15 AM

Great photos! She looks nice and relaxed, certainly her posture doesn't seem to be that of a dog ready to run.

Looking forward to a photo of the two of you :)

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 21, 2009, 01:23 PM

Sorry that I didn't post yesterday, it as another "hades" day at work, and we had friends stop in for dinner.

At dinner, one of my friends daughters came down to the barn to feed the animals, and Angel was not afraid of her, and Angel did come in and eat from her bowl while both of us were in the tack room. I think she realized that the little girl was a friend.

A few more baby steps this morning, as she was eating her hand fed chicken bits, I managed to give the top of her nose a very light swipe with my index finger, and she didn't jump away, but did manage to avoid a second attempt at contact.

But after that she was following me all around as I was busy feeding the horses, filling water buckets, sweeping, etc. She likes to come in and out to grab treats from the bowl in the tack room, I put a treat in every time I go in and out of the room.

The best part was while I was cleaning stalls, as I finished up the second stall, I could hear her sniffing around somewhere in the barn. As I headed across the aisle to the last stall, there she was - inside the stall! So, I was sort of blocking her way out, with my body, the muck bucket and the manure fork, and for about 5 seconds she looked around the stall for an exit, and not finding one, she stood and looked at me. She did not appear to be too frightened, her tail was in a neutral postion. I talked with her for about 30 seconds and then let her go past, and she did exit the stall, but didn't run in a panic. And then she wandered around the barn aisle while I finished cleaning.

Oh, and the water - this morning in an effort to do multi-tasking, I put the hose in the wading pool, which overflowed as I was doing other chores. Which caused a bit of a "stream" of water going downhill. Angel went out and was watching the water run and pool in a spot that she had dug a small depression in the dirt. Then she lapped at the water, and then was gently digging with her front paw, and watching the water fill in the dug spot. I wonder what was going through her mind?

So again, a little bit of progress every day. I like that I could stroke her nose this morning. I like that she follows me around while I am working. And I love it when I call her if she is far away, and she comes running to me, and sings all the way.

MHM

Jul. 21, 2009, 02:20 PM

I've lost track- who uses the wading pool? Angel or the horses? Or both?

I'd love to see pictures of that. :)

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 21, 2009, 02:38 PM

I've lost track- who uses the wading pool? Angel or the horses? Or both?

I'd love to see pictures of that. :)

Well, I bought the pool to see if Angel would use it. She only uses it as a giant water dish. The horses also use it as a low water trough. No one wades in it. But at least since they are all drinking out of it, it was not a waste of $10. Angel prefers to play in the water spraying from the hose instead of actually getting into a body of water.

Lucky barn dog gets leftover filet tonight (thanks to our dinner at Outback last night).

The new camera battery just arrived in the mail and is charging, so hopefully I can try to get more pictures of her "farm life".

CB/TB

Jul. 21, 2009, 06:27 PM

Going into a stall and not panicking is BIG. Work it like that a few times, like it's no big thing and nothing to get excited about and you might be able to finally get her either close enough to try the tranqs again( maybe not the dart gun) or at least some oral vaccines/wormers, etc. If you get her to stay for a few minutes , then let her out -with a goodie as a reward she might think it's not so bad. She really is cute and I think she's very close. She "let" you pet her again, so she has been doing a lot of thinking about her situation.

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 21, 2009, 07:21 PM

Thanks! I have to give you all another update that I just learned from my neighbor.

This morning my neighbor went out with his 4 month old german shepard to get the paper from the other side of the community gate like he does every morning. Of course this morning I was running late, and missed them - darn it - because the pup ran into my pasture and was playing with Angel. My neighbor told me it was the cutest thing to watch, especially when the pup got into the wading pool and lay in it, and Angel was looking at him as if to say "what on earth are you doing?".

Of course the pup would not come when called, so my neighbor had to come in to try to catch the little bugger, and he said that Angel of course would scoot away, but not as far as she used to - perhaps she was watching him interact with his dog - which might have helped trigger her progress today. It also explains why there were no toys in the field this morning, I guess she had a playmate and didn't need toys.

There was some concern about heat cycles and the fact that the 4 month old is not neutered yet (his appointment is Thursday). I told the neighbor that I don't think she is back in heat yet, due in the middle of August by my calculations, and that if she were in heat, she would most likely go into her yard (these are the neighbors that used to feed her also) to go have a "date" with their dog. I based that premise on the fact that Angel went and enticed the jack russel up the road to risk getting shocked by his invisible fence collar to come out and play 6 months ago.

Angel did get steak tonight, and she did lick my fingers for a brief moment, I guess it depends on the kind of steak and what seasonings were used or something, because I have had "steak greased" hands before and she would not lick them in the past.

And she is happy out in the field chewing on a pig twist treat (I try to alternate them for her). Of course I feel slightly guilty that one of my house dogs is chewing on a Nylabone while Angel gets all the stuff that they can't have because those types of treats either make them throw up, and one dog breaks out in hives.

harveyhorses

Jul. 22, 2009, 08:50 AM

I think being in a stall and not 'reverting' is huge too!! She is so much happier, confident, secure than she was. You might be up for 'Best Trained Human' award.

MHM

Jul. 22, 2009, 09:24 AM

My neighbor told me it was the cutest thing to watch, especially when the pup got into the wading pool and lay in it, and Angel was looking at him as if to say "what on earth are you doing?".

Aww! She was probably thinking, "Eww! Gross! Get out of my giant water dish!" :lol:

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 22, 2009, 03:48 PM

Aww! She was probably thinking, "Eww! Gross! Get out of my giant water dish!" :lol:

Well, this is the puppy that my neighbors have found playing in the toilets in the house also. And I am surprised that my young cutting horse didn't chase him out of his "water trough". Probably didn't because he didn't want to lose his spot in his stall where he was waiting for room service to bring his breakfast!

Nothing new to report from this morning, but once again I was sort of rushed. Well, I think Angel wanted to play this morning, because as I was sitting at my desk with the phone headset on, I saw her out with the horses, and she was leaping about and barking at them, trying to get them to play. But they never play first thing in the AM because they are too busy grazing. Too bad the neighbors puppy didn't come play with her this morning, but I bet they had him on a leash today. Occasionally my youngest horse will oblige her and play a game of tag.

SevenDogs

Jul. 22, 2009, 04:13 PM

Well, this is the puppy that my neighbors have found playing in the toilets in the house also. And I am surprised that my young cutting horse didn't chase him out of his "water trough". Probably didn't because he didn't want to lose his spot in his stall where he was waiting for room service to bring his breakfast!

Nothing new to report from this morning, but once again I was sort of rushed. Well, I think Angel wanted to play this morning, because as I was sitting at my desk with the phone headset on, I saw her out with the horses, and she was leaping about and barking at them, trying to get them to play. But they never play first thing in the AM because they are too busy grazing. Too bad the neighbors puppy didn't come play with her this morning, but I bet they had him on a leash today. Occasionally my youngest horse will oblige her and play a game of tag.

Hey, at least somebody is using the wading pool!

Any chance you can invite the puppy back over for a play date (AFTER neutering, of course)? If Angel is receptive to the puppy, you might be able to transition to bringing one of the house dogs out later?

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 22, 2009, 04:37 PM

Hey, at least somebody is using the wading pool!

Any chance you can invite the puppy back over for a play date (AFTER neutering, of course)? If Angel is receptive to the puppy, you might be able to transition to bringing one of the house dogs out later?

Good Idea! I will have to run this past my neighbor, since she had said that it would be good for her dog to socialize with other dogs also, and it might just tire the little bugger out for her. I'll call her tonight after my horror show meetings going on right now.

Eireamon

Jul. 22, 2009, 09:36 PM

The pictures tell a thousand words.

She has lost that fearful look in eye and posture.

Her new pics show a lovely soft eye and posture of a very much loved and loving dog.

Well done.

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 23, 2009, 04:10 PM

My silly barn dog just about gave me a heart attack last night.

After she was done with her chew treat, I saw her sitting upright at the fence, watching the neighbor have a training session with her puppy. Two minutes later I looked back, and she was AWOL. For a minute I thought she might have gone into the neighbors yard, but as I scouted around, she was not there. So I expanded my search and spotted her laying in the road at the entrance to our neighborhood.

I marched myself down to that section of the pasture and in a nice voice, asked her what she was doing. Evidently she had been playing in the sprinkler at the gate, and then decided to lay in the road to dry. So, I called her, and started to walk back to the barn, and she came running along with me! Of course she got another treat for that.

I have to go to the store and refill on snacks for her.

MHM

Jul. 23, 2009, 09:29 PM

Bad dog, Angel! Bad, bad dog! Don't do that again!!!! It's not nice to give your mother a heart attack! Bad dog.

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 23, 2009, 10:26 PM

Well, I didn't want to yell at her, or call her in a stern voice, I was worried that she would think I was angry.

Today was just one of those "more of the same" days, the only sign of progess was that some of the treats she ate from me, she ate either sitting down or laying down. Which in my mind means she is comfortable enough to do that, and not be on all 4 legs ready to run.

One of this evening's chores was the cleaning of the pasture waterer, and she came up to check out the puddle from the water that drained out of it, and then she lay in the shade about 10 feet away as I was bleaching and scrubbing. I think she likes to just hang around in my general vicinity while I work. And I don't think it is just food/treat motivation, because I had given her the chew treat, and she left it behind in the field to come see what I was doing.

SevenDogs

Jul. 23, 2009, 11:15 PM

She definitely loves hanging out with you - she's YOUR dog!!! :yes:

I also think taking treats sitting or laying down is significant. You can see in the photos that she is not on guard with you at all and that is BIG!

I think you did the exact right thing this morning by just calling her kindly and rewarding her for coming. I think she would be confused by a stern voice and would not associate it with being in the street.

Like so many others, I check this thread often during the day and can't help but smile when I see there is an update! Thanks for sharing her with us!

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 24, 2009, 11:53 AM

Good Idea! I will have to run this past my neighbor, since she had said that it would be good for her dog to socialize with other dogs also, and it might just tire the little bugger out for her. I'll call her tonight after my horror show meetings going on right now.

I didn't have to call the neighbor, Angel has taken this matter into her own paws.

This morning as I was heading to the barn, I noticed both my neighbors at their driveway gate, and two sets of wagging tails (in the picture of Angel laying with the horses grazing, the neighbor's house is in the background). So I went out and got the scoop from them.

Apparently the day after the two dogs had their unplanned play date in my pasture, Angel took it upon herself to go along with my neighbor and his pup for their morning walk, at least part way. Then she went back onto my property and waited for them to return. My neighbor spotted her, and took a shortcut back home so that he didn't have to try to seperate them. That was Wednesday.

Yesterday was the day that their pup was neutered, so no playing for them.

Well, this morning as they let the pup out to do his thing in their yard, Angel squeezed under their gate, and the two dogs had a good romp, which was problematic, since the pup just got neutered yesterday and is supposed to have restricted activity for the next 5 days. So, they had to put concrete blocks under the gate to keep Angel out for now.

As we were talking over their fence, Angel came over and was interacting with the pup through the fence. I have never seen her wag her tail so much, she just loves him.

Perhaps once the pup is off restricted exercise, they can remove the blocks and Angel can go back and play. I told them if they want to bring the pup over to play they can, but it is probably safer in their yard since their dog can't get out of their yard, but he could get out of my pasture because I do not have no-climb on all the perimeter fences (just the front and the fences that are between the pasture and the yard, with the exception of one section next to the driveway on the pasture side).

My neighbor did say that the playing is good for their dog, because he does get tired afterwards. They also both mentioned their amazement at how fast Angel can run, and how close she got to them as she was playing with the pup.

We all agree that perhaps Angel just has never had any real interaction with humans, and other than her brief date with the jack russel up the road, and playing through the fence with my house dogs, she has not had any other doggy interaction since they trapped the dog she was here with last fall.

I did say to them "perhaps Angel will end up being your dog after all", and they got a bit pale, I think right now they are a bit overwhelmed with dealing with a puppy, and the thought of two dogs might be a bit much. However, I don't know if we will ever be able to truely confine Angel, I think she is going to be the "neighborhood" dog for some time, since she is accustomed to being able to come and go as she pleases.

Oh, I don't know what this was all about, but just as I was logging off the computer for the night (at midnight I might add), I could hear her barking in the corner of the field near the road, so went out with the flashlight, but couldn't see what she was barking at. Maybe I scared it off, because after I did the flashlight scan, she stopped barking.

Once the pup is off exercise restrictions and can play, I will try to get pictures of them together. He is a very handsome german shepard.

SevenDogs

Jul. 24, 2009, 12:44 PM

I think this puppy is going to provide a means for some big steps up for Angel!

bludejavu

Jul. 24, 2009, 01:38 PM

Munchkins Mom - I am woefully ignorant on this thread because I don't have a lot of reading time, but I really wanted to see the pictures. Honestly, as an outsider looking in, and knowing that you have really had to work at befriending Angel, I honestly wonder if she was born feral. It would sure explain how she can only let you get just so close and then no closer.

I had a young kitten show up here four years ago right before Christmas that from all outward appearances was feral. But on a particularly cold and bitter night, I heard her crying on and on and I tried so hard to catch her on my porch but she was just too scared. She would watch me and I could get within about two feet but that was it and then she would run away. I couldn't stand to hear her crying but the cold finally made me give up after an evening of trying to get her. As it so happens, we have french doors on our front porch - I caught a movement out of the corner of my eye and there she was scratching at the lowest pane. I knew then there was no way she was feral - a truly feral kitten would not beg to be let inside. I resorted to sheer trickery at that point and placed a small saucer of warm milk right outside the door. That kitten literally followed her nose and snaked across my front porch as I watched from inside. She lapped the milk up and I opened the door just a bit and stood behind it. She took the plunge and came in - she's been here ever since :lol:. But I had to catch her - once I caught her (after praying she wouldn't scratch me to death), she proved to have been definitely handled by people by immediately purring and looking happy.

The point to my kitten story is that a dog or cat that has been handled at a young age still retains that memory. It seems that Angel might not have those memories to fall back on so everything you forge with her is brand new to her.

Between the kitten in my story, my newest pittie love "Sweetie", and the baby bird I rescued in my barn this year, I've about decided to hang a sign out that says "One Big Animal Sucker Lives Here -All Welcome"!:winkgrin:

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 24, 2009, 02:05 PM

I've about decided to hang a sign out that says "One Big Animal Sucker Lives Here -All Welcome"!:winkgrin:

Oh, I can relate to that, I think it is a large club of us actually.

Here is the link to the photo album again:

The new photos are the last 7 in the album.

http://www.picturetrail.com/gid22112544

I just came in from lunch, and Angel came out from under the horse trailer to say hello and eat a Pupperoni treat.

jetsmom

Jul. 24, 2009, 07:29 PM

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 24, 2009, 08:45 PM

I think if Angel sees you patting/hand feeding the puppy, she will let herself be pet more easily. Rusty made tremendous progress once there was a friendly Lab that was eating food from my hand and letting me pat her.

I've always remembered that from your posts way back when, I just couldn't seem to find the right dog. The pup across the street just might be the ticket!

Tonight we had steak again, so I had a lot of leftovers (it was a tough cut of meat, and came out too dry). Thanks to the steak, she came all the way into the center of the tack room to get them and eat them from my hand. I did manage to get a little tiny chin tickle in.

What is funny is that if I do manage to get a swipe or a tickle in, she is extra careful to try to avoid for the rest of the feeding session.

harveyhorses

Jul. 25, 2009, 08:36 AM

I've about decided to hang a sign out that says "One Big Animal Sucker Lives Here -All Welcome"!:winkgrin:

Oh you don't need a sign they KNOW:winkgrin:

MM I think this puppy will be great for Angel, and the sitting and eating is great!! All these steps, you are so amazingly patient, it IS paying off.

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 25, 2009, 03:33 PM

I did get to get a few extra chin tickles in this morning, she seems to be getting used to the idea a bit.

I watched 3 hours of the Dog Whisperer again last night, and while none of the episodes are really anything exactly like what I have with Angel, I am gaining some insight on my body language, and how to read her body language, and how to react based on her body language. I think it is helping.

Buffyblue

Jul. 25, 2009, 05:30 PM

I think the puppy playtime is a great idea! It's so important for their socialization to be able to play and interact with other dogs. Great progress with her so far, BTW. I love reading all the updates!

P.S. Love watching Cesar too - I have two Aussies (10 y.o. and the little one just turned 1 1/2).

libgrrl

Jul. 25, 2009, 07:19 PM

If you are interested in canine body language, there is a fabulous book called...er...
Canine Body Language, by Brenda Aloff.

Fascinating book, and pictures galore!

Cesar is fun to watch, but please do know that he is a more than a bit controversial in the dog world.

Angel looks like a sweetie! I have a smaller version of her that was found as a feral, and brought in to our shelter with a catchpole. She still has huge trust/fear issues with everyone but my husband and I, but she is genuinely the sweetest, most loving little dog. Much better than our more "civilized" dog (a foster dog who my husband couldn't bear to send to a new home). She is proving to be far more work than the feral!

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 25, 2009, 08:36 PM

Another baby step for Angel tonight. I took a nap this afternoon to try to catch up on lost sleep from burning the mignight oil at work the past two weeks, so dinner was an hour late.

When she spotted me, she started wagging her tail, I called her, she came running to me, and sniffed my leg (possibly because I smelled like my aussie who had been curled up on the couch next to me).

She also came right into the tack room to eat, with no hesitation.

Yes, I do know that Cesar is a bit controversial, like any trainer/clinician (horse, dog, people) the consumer needs to apply common sense when watching, and only take away what will work for your individual situation. So, I get some insights, and mostly I find that it is more the humans that need the training than the dogs.

I also know that as I gain Angel's trust, that it will also take time for her to trust other humans. I think in her case, she will evaluate each person for their own merits, and allocate her trust according to how she perceives that person to be. A lesson we all could learn.

libgrrl

Jul. 26, 2009, 08:00 PM

Oh -- I agree about Cesar, and I think there are as many positives resulting from his popularity as there are negatives. I think the dog training community tends to focus on the negatives (focus on "dominance" and some of the harsher techniques) and forget about the positives (focus on body language, that dogs are *dogs* with a different psyche than people, and simply the fact that many problems can be worked with!) I have much greater problems with Sue Sternberg, who I have actually worked with -- but that's another story.

Once again, since I share my life with my own little feral (who was "pushed" a lot farther, a lot faster, with its share of consequences :-( ) this story really speaks to me.

Go Angel!

MunchkinsMom

Jul. 26, 2009, 10:38 PM

Once again, since I share my life with my own little feral (who was "pushed" a lot farther, a lot faster, with its share of consequences :-( ) this story really speaks to me.

Go Angel!

I think that is why I might have a better outcome doing it all on her timeframe than trying to push the issue. But it would have given me a bit more peace of mind knowing that she had her shots and was spayed, so I just cross my fingers that nothing happens to her in the meantime.

She loved the steak again tonight, and followed me into the center of the tack room to be hand fed.

In the afternoon while I was doing my deep stall weekly cleaning, she just hung around, and at one point was flat out sleeping in the shade in the sand outside the barn. I take that as a sign of increased trust on her part.

MHM

Jul. 26, 2009, 11:31 PM

After 7 months and 1000 posts, we're all still rooting for you and Angel! :)

PertyPaints

Jul. 27, 2009, 12:07 AM

I would try throwing a blanket on the ground and just laying down face down on it and just totally ignore Angel....I can't imagine that her curiosity will not get the best of her and cause her to investigate....if she roots around at ya she will help desensitize herself to human contact. Have a pigs ear or something under your belly...maybe rub that up and down your sides before you lay down so that she knows it's there "somewhere"....let her look for it. Show it to her first and get her excited about getting it then lay down. Give her the treat at the end of the session. Do this before feeding her if you try it. Maybe have your one arm up and around the top of your head with your face hidden behind it in your elbow area. Make sure the blanket is only as wide as your body so she's not worried about stepping on it or maybe lay the blanket under the trailer or some other spot of hers for a couple days so that she gets used to it beforehand.....if she won't drag it off and shred it:winkgrin: Or you could just rough it and not use a blanket:winkgrin: