Anyone else looked at the picture of Satchmo

[grayarabpony]

in the Dec 19th issue of COTH, and said WTF? No wonder that horse has had problems with being sore!

[BornToRide]

I don't get the magazine - do you have a link?

[BornToRide]

I tried to find a video and watched the 2008 performance at the Olympics. This horse isn't really through the back, which can easily be seen in the poor extensions. The fancy front end knee action disguises this somewhat.

It appears he is rather inflexible at the sacro-ilica joints, also demonstrated by kicking out when doing the passage. It also looks like he's pushing is back either willfully down or isn't using his abs correctly, again all signs that he really is not through his body.

[siegi b.]

If you read the article in the current Chronicle it says that the horse had a pulled muscle or something like that in his back during the Olympics... "Upon Satchmo's return to Germany, a veterinary exam revealed back problems that might have caused the resistance to piaffe. After his back was treated, Werth turned Satchmo our for a two-week vacation with his companion pony."

The horse won both, the GP for the Special with a 77.37, and the GP Special with a 79.36. Werth then went on to win both GP Freestyles on Warum Nicht with scores of 77.54 and 81.10.

The picture of Satchmo was taken at sort of a bad moment in time, but I don't see how anybody could draw any medical conclusions from it unless they had x-ray vision. :-)

[grayarabpony]

I'm referring to his feet -- don't really need X-rays to see that his toes are very long...

[siegi b.]

I disagree with you on the toe length.... especially since you make the statement that that is what caused his soreness.

Let me assure you that Satchmo was checked out by the best of the best in German vets, so I'm thinking that going with their opinion after they actually saw the horse is the way to go. :-)

[grayarabpony]

Vets are not farriers, sadly enough, and I don't see how anyone can say those toes don't look too long.

[KatieD]

I didn't see the exact picture that you are talking about but I looked at other pics with them at the 2008 olympics and as far as his feet go, I don't think there is anything unusual.:confused: Just my opinion...but would they really be as successful as they are at the level they are if they couldn't find a decent farrier?;)

Can you find the picture you are talking about?

[cosmos mom]

I didn't see the picture in the chronicle, but I didn't think is toes looked long in the other photos from the olympics that I could find. Maybe it was the single photo angle. I can't imagine that a farrier shoeing horses in the level of olympic competition would make such an error. Photos can be decieving.

[grayarabpony]

I'm talking specifically about the photo in the Chronicle, and if his toes have been long over his career, it definitely could contribute to pain. Perhaps not, but his feet do look strange in the photo.

KatieD you need a subscription to the Chronicle to see the photo.

BTW, yes, I was astonished to see a horse like Satchmo with feet that looked like that. Yes, it's a photo that may be deceiving, but I don't think it is -- I looked at it a few times before posting.

[J.D.]

Used to shoe a horse named Satchmo. Need a pic to determine if it was/is the same horse. He was one ugly M F !

[KatieD]

:lol:


That was a joke, right?

grayarabpony - would his feet vary that much from photo to photo, if all were taken at the 2008 olympics? Or was that photo taken sometime else?

[siegi b.]

J. D. - I'm sure you're talking about the same horse GAP is... :-)

[BornToRide]

Let me assure you that Satchmo was checked out by the best of the best in German vets, so I'm thinking that going with their opinion after they actually saw the horse is the way to go. :-)
Well unless you were actually there, that's all rather relative , now isn't it? My sister's horse has a vet who also treats international show jumpers. He recommended the farrier she was using and then diagnosed the horse with navicular a year later. He never so anything wrong with the hoof form......things that make you go hmmmmmm.

Just because someone treats a high level horse, does not mean they know everything or are up to date on everything and hoof health is a notoriously neglected topic in vet school that is also often based on very outdated , traditional information.

I also don't think the "not being through" is only a recent issue - here's a photo at the Grand Prix Freestyle CDIO dressage event 08 July 2007 during the CHIO World Equestrian Festival in Aachen. You see the same thing, primarily a leg mover with a pushed down back and you can see typical forward toe underrun heel syndrome of one of the front hooves:

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/05TJgCz3Uwcnj/610x.jpg

[magnolia73]

Perhaps if she posted here and followed our advice, she would have won a gold. :lol:

Have you considered that the shoeing is purposeful and perhaps contributes to the horse moving well enough to consistently be the best dressage horse in the world?

[BornToRide]

Perhaps if she posted here and followed our advice, she would have won a gold. :lol:

Have you considered that the shoeing is purposeful and perhaps contributes to the horse moving well enough to consistently be the best dressage horse in the world?That's another one of those myths that won't die. How is this even substantiated?? Very few barefooted horses are trained to Grand Prix. Emma Hindle did very successfully. She found that the horses had much more suspension and bounce when ridden bare. Therefore your statement can really not be made with such certainty!

[Rick Burten]

That's another one of those myths that won't die.
No myth about it. Check the posted results for as far back as you care to go. See how many of those horses were/are shod.

How is this even substantiated??

See above.

Very few barefooted horses are trained to Grand Prix.

Ever consider why? I though not.

Emma Hindle did very successfully. She found that the horses had much more suspension and bounce when ridden bare.

Exceptions prove the rule.

Therefore your statement can really not be made with such certainty!

Correct. It can be made with absolute certainty.

[J.D.]

Have to see a pic... horse was in Califonia


J. D. - I'm sure you're talking about the same horse GAP is... :-)

[BornToRide]

Looks like he's rather low in the heels behind too:

http://flickr.com/photos/63501868@N00/2465544772/in/pool-37996583794@N01

Looks like he;s wearing eggbars in the fronts too Eggbar (http://equisearch.com/equiwire_news/olympics2008/dressage/olympics08_isabell_werth_stubborn_satchmo_800.JPG)

Now this is a good Satchmo extension: Extension (http://accentcomputerconsulting.com/greengate/wp-content/gallery/dams/WerbsSATCHMOLadyLaur.jpg)

Compared to this now - looks like he does not use his hind end well enough anymore -- what happened to this poor horse? http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0gps5Rxfip5I1/610x.jpg

[JB]

Have to see a pic... horse was in Califonia

Google is your friend
http://news.equestrianconnection.com/nm-newsshow.asp?story=762

[KatieD]

For one thing, isn't it a bit difficult to be so certain, when all you have to look at is a still photograph of a horse in motion?

Also, I'd still say that it is unlikely that these horses would be (for the most part) consistent, best-of-the-best movers if they had such poor farriers! If the horse really does have a relatively low heel...well...not even olympic horses have perfect conformation.

[magnolia73]

LOL, well, then give her a call and convice her to pull his shoes.

[BornToRide]

For one thing, isn't it a bit difficult to be so certain, when all you have to look at is a still photograph of a horse in motion?

Also, I'd still say that it is unlikely that these horses would be (for the most part) consistent, best-of-the-best movers if they had such poor farriers! If the horse really does have a relatively low heel...well...not even olympic horses have perfect conformation.

Yeah, perhaps, except videos confirm what the photos tell too :yes:

Keep in mind that it may not be the farrier work that's poor per se, but how it is applied from a traditional point of view, like slapping shoes on without considering why the hooves may have soreness issues. That is VERY commonly done under the assumption a sore horse needs shoes, without EVER giving it a second thought like "Yeah, but WHY is the hoof sore??" and looking for that reason!!

[cosmos mom]

Compared to this now - looks like he does not use his hind end well enough anymore -- what happened to this poor horse? http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0gps5Rxfip5I1/610x.jpg

Look like an injury. It can happen, just like with human athletes. Ever seen a football player with a nagging soft tissue injury?

[grayarabpony]

Perhaps if she posted here and followed our advice, she would have won a gold. :lol:

Have you considered that the shoeing is purposeful and perhaps contributes to the horse moving well enough to consistently be the best dressage horse in the world?

:lol:

well, not really.

Satchmo has plenty enough talent that he doesn't need long toes to contribute to his movement. Long toes don't contribute to suspension -- unless they're trying to get him to reach out more, but long toes really just lead to soreness in the not very long term. Satchmo has a tremendous amount of freedom in his shoulder anyway.

He's a magnificent horse.

OK, there's a lot of ifs here, but -- if he's had a history of being shod with long toes, it may very well have contributed to his SI problems and the blow-ups in the Olympic tests... None of it may be related though. I've only noticed his feet in this photo and was surprised by it.

[ImJumpin]

Nope-- he isn't wearing eggbars up front in the pictures you posted.

[grayarabs]

I will have to back to the CofH photo - but looking at the photo BTR posted - hooves off the ground - the heel bulbs on fronts just stand out to me for some reason - they don't look right.

[BornToRide]

Look like an injury. It can happen, just like with human athletes. Ever seen a football player with a nagging soft tissue injury?
Sadly I see a lot of Dressage horses move this way - did they all sustain the same injury??! I bet not. I think it comes from incorrect riding primarily, possibly combined with shoes issues, saddle fit, tight muscles from a diet high in carbs, you name it. I wish I could get my hands on one of those horses and convince the rider/owner that there may be better ways that would actually improve performance!

[PiaffeDreams]

Sadly I see a lot of Dressage horses move this way - did they all sustain the same injury??! I bet not. I think it comes from incorrect riding primarily, possibly combined with shoes issues, saddle fit, tight muscles from a diet high in carbs, you name it. I wish I could get my hands on one of those horses and convince the rider/owner that there may be better ways that would actually improve performance!

Then do it already.

Just go buy one your self and do all of the above you mention and whatever other expertise you have: your proper methods of hoof care, correct riding, use whatever saddle you determine to be the best fitting, keep his diet carefully monitored for optimal nutritional content without overloading on carbs/protien/fat/soy whatever, heck... pasture it 24/7 on a 100 acres with 20 other horses.

Why do you have to wait to get your hands on someone else's horse?

[BornToRide]

I see some of the DQs have been alerted to this thread :D

You are missing the point - I am talking about rehabbing a horse like this to show the incredible changes that can be realized with more natural horse care - a more natural, sepcies specific diet, hoof care , etc.

And, if I had the money, I'd do exactly what you propose. Please, send lots of cash :yes::cool:

[cosmos mom]

I see some of the DQs have been alerted to this thread :D

You are missing the point - I am talking about rehabbing a horse like this to show the incredible changes that can be realized with more natural horse care - a more natural, sepcies specific diet, hoof care , etc.

And, if I had the money, I'd do exactly what you propose. Please, send lots of cash :yes::cool:

And would you also take them grand prix level at the olympics??? Why do you get offended when people talk about barefoot nazis or BUA's, but call people DQ's? It seems a little hypocrytical. Also, where are the many dressage horses that you see moving this way? Are they at horse shows that you attend? Doing GP? Doing training level? At schooling shows? That is a rather vague statement to make. Would "Poor Sacthmo" even be a dressage horse if you got your hands on him, or would he be in a field somewhere waiting for his big trail ride?

[magnolia73]

I think movement - good movement is subjective and relative. To a saddlebred person, the best moving horse would get last in a hunter under saddle where the winner would be too quick for western pleasure. I do think dressage movement that is rewarded is stylized and I don't care for the way they move- they remind me of heavyweight boxers. However, I think the movements they do are incredible and respect and am in awe of the training. I don't think for a minute that a lame/sore/compromised horse could do Grand Prix. I do think they get injured due to the work they are asked to do. That is part of being a top competitive athlete because part of that edge is pushing past a limit that recreational athletes don't push beyond. I don't know if it is fair, but it is what it is.

[Capriole]

That's another one of those myths that won't die. How is this even substantiated?? Very few barefooted horses are trained to Grand Prix. Emma Hindle did very successfully. She found that the horses had much more suspension and bounce when ridden bare. Therefore your statement can really not be made with such certainty!
Emma Hindle's horses are not barefoot any longer. Clearly she has decided they perform better with shoes -- and she gave barefoot a genuine try.

[rcloisonne]

I don't think for a minute that a lame/sore/compromised horse could do Grand Prix.
Oh, I dunno. Did you see Bretina perform in the 08 Olympics? :eek:

[BornToRide]

Emma Hindle's horses are not barefoot any longer. Clearly she has decided they perform better with shoes -- and she gave barefoot a genuine try.
Have you talked with her about it or are you assuming? Most likely she was pressured by owners and/or her trainer to put shoes on again because the myth that horses need shoes, especially Dressage horses for support supposedly, just won't die with some folks since riders usually do not own their horses and I do not believe she owned any of the ones in question.

And would you also take them grand prix level at the olympics??? Why do you get offended when people talk about barefoot nazis or BUA's, but call people DQ's? It seems a little hypocrytical. Also, where are the many dressage horses that you see moving this way? Are they at horse shows that you attend? Doing GP? Doing training level? At schooling shows? That is a rather vague statement to make. Would "Poor Sacthmo" even be a dressage horse if you got your hands on him, or would he be in a field somewhere waiting for his big trail ride?You bet I would and I wasn't offended at all because I know better. I lovingly call myself a redneck DQ :D

I see bad Dressage riding EVERYWHERE - mostly from the hands and legs, instead of truly riding from the seat because most riders don't work on themselves enough, but expect their horses to perform.

What irks me the most is that at international upper levels this sort of riding is also awarded by judges. For example, most folks hum and haw over the performance of Blue Hors Matinee - that mare is a SAINT. She is so stuck in her sacro-iliac joints it is amazing that she even puts up with it and most people don't see her struggles AT ALL. It pains me to see her performance because I feel so sorry for her!! She should not be asked to perform this way, with this condition. It is simply unfair to her.

[PiaffeDreams]

I see some of the DQs have been alerted to this thread :D

You are missing the point - I am talking about rehabbing a horse like this to show the incredible changes that can be realized with more natural horse care - a more natural, sepcies specific diet, hoof care , etc.

And, if I had the money, I'd do exactly what you propose. Please, send lots of cash :yes::cool:

I'm not missing the point at all and I wouldn't use a derogatory term to describe you, hun. ;)

As for rehabbing a horse like this.... :lol: Do you not think that these horses are VERY carefully managed? That the slightest discomfort in saddle fit etc. routinely goes unnoticed? These are athletes. They will get muscle strains, sprains, soreness, fatigue. Their bodies are constantly changing, thus changes to saddles, tack, work schedule, feed, shoeing.... all are made on a continual basis (ie: Satchmo got turned out for a couple of weeks with his buddy and more I'm sure)- and YET these horses can be seen again and again at major competitions, at the top of the game no less. Heaven forbid sometimes better and sometimes not so good. The horse is a living breathing creature not a robot. And, so is the rider. ;)

As for $$.... its out there to be had for any rider able and willing to take a horse to that level.

[Capriole]

Have you talked with her about it or are you assuming? Most likely she was pressured by owners and/or her trainer to put shoes on again because the myth that horses need shoes, especially Dressage horses for support supposedly, just won't die with some folks since riders usually do not own their horses and I do not believe she owned any of the ones in question.
I have eyes and I have seen the shoes on her horses. And I have pointed this out to you before; I guess you forgot. Surely you wouldn't state facts you know to be false just because they don't support your thesis? :cool:

You might also note that no barefoot site mentions her recently -- only articles from years ago.

I am pretty sure Emma owns her own horses. She makes her own decisions.

[BornToRide]

I'm not missing the point at all and I wouldn't use a derogatory term to describe you, hun. ;)


It wasn't meant to be derogatory, pumkin :winkgrin:


Do you not think that these horses are VERY carefully managed? That the slightest discomfort in saddle fit etc. routinely goes unnoticed? These are athletes
Yes, generally what I see is the horses are managed in the traditional way, with drugs, chiros, etc., without possibly considering for example thinking more outside the box, like trying barefoot for a while, feed the horse less or no grain, try a treeless saddle. That's the kind of rehab I am talking about because the traditional way isn't always very effective from what I have experienced!


As for $$.... its out there to be had for any rider able and willing to take a horse to that level.
Where is it??

I am pretty sure Emma owns her own horses. She makes her own decisions.Please show me that she actually currently owns Diamond Hit and Wie Weltmeyer!

[magnolia73]

Piaffedreams-
I checked out your website- do you think you could send me some of your horses to- ummm..... rehab? ;)

Seriously- they look like a nice group of happy horses.

[Rick Burten]

Most likely she was pressured by owners and/or her trainer to put shoes on again......

Have you talked with her about it or are you assuming?

because the myth that horses need shoes, especially Dressage horses for support supposedly, just won't die with some folks since riders usually do not own their horses and I do not believe she owned any of the ones in question.

Actually, it is not a myth as is demonstrated by the number of successful shod dressage(and other discipline) horses vs. the barefoot coterie.

I lovingly call myself a redneck DQ

Then your hypocracy truly knows no bounds.

I see bad Dressage riding EVERYWHERE - mostly from the hands and legs, instead of truly riding from the seat because most riders don't work on themselves enough, but expect their horses to perform.

Are you perchance an "i" or "I" judge?

What irks me the most is that at international upper levels this sort of riding is also awarded by judges. For example, most folks hum and haw over the performance of Blue Hors Matinee - that mare is a SAINT.

I'm glad you said "most folks", 'cause you can number me in the contingent that doesn't.


She is so stuck in her sacro-iliac joints it is amazing that she even puts up with it and most people don't see her struggles AT ALL.[/quote]

Is your opinion, errrrrr, diagnosis, based on viewing some video or two, or personal, hands on experience?

By the way, I at least, upon looking at the videos of her(never seen her in person) am of the opinion that she is one really unhappy camper.

It pains me to see her performance because I feel so sorry for her!! She should not be asked to perform this way, with this condition. It is simply unfair to her.
I'm not sure what her 'condition' is, and neither are you. Regardless, I agree that she is being asked to do more than she is, at this time, for what ever reason(s), comfortable doing.

[JB]

Why do you get offended when people talk about barefoot nazis or BUA's, but call people DQ's? It seems a little hypocrytical.

Not hypocritical when Dressage riders regularly refer to themselves, and others in their discipline, as DQs and mean it mostly in a very affectionate manner. The terms "barefoot nazi" and BUA have nothing but derogatory connotations. See the difference? ;)

It IS true that far too many people, judges included, have been wowed by the flashy leg movement and have lost sight of the fact that the back is stiff as a board. There have been many discussions on this on the Dressage board. It's not a matter of what looks good to one isn't acceptable to another. It's a fact that Dressage movement today is more flash and less correct movement than it has been and should be.

[DMK]

Most likely she was pressured by owners and/or her trainer to put shoes on again because the myth that horses need shoes, especially Dressage horses for support supposedly, just won't die with some folks since riders usually do not own their horses and I do not believe she owned any of the ones in question.

Have you talked with her about it or are you assuming?

Honestly, you think you have the answers to sounder, better moving, more winning dressage horses? You go, girl! Who here doesn't want that?

Go get some dressage horse clients, practice your magic and make 'em better. I promise you that when you do you will get more clients, and then you can make their horses better, and get more horses, and next thing you know the top 10% of the riders will fly you all over the world so you can do your thing on their horses and help them win. Especially if what you can do is just so much better and more revolutionary than anything else being offered. Just stands to reason, right?

So go on, get yourself out there and do your thing and let your results speak for you.

[magnolia73]

Where is it??

If you can prove yourself to be a successful rider/manager of horses, people will pay you to manage and compete their horses.

Most, (not all) professionals have a proven system of training and management. They find nice horses, train nice horses and keep them going well under a variety of systems. If you think your system is better, then go purchase a quality prospect or using what you have, attract an owner or a breeder. Results do speak volumes- if you have a better way. Of course you have to prove it- people are loath to change what works for an unproven system.

Notably, top horses of all disciplines are managed differently. Different systems work for different people. The people I have met who competed at higher levels all understand nutrition, the importance of proper exercise and conditioning, the fitting of tack, proper shoeing and foot care (per horse).

It seems silly to attack those at the top who's systems do work instead of working to educate those at the bottom who may truly be ignorant about proper hoof care, nutrition and saddle fit. Perhaps instead inform the new horseowner that is trying to save money by letting the horse go for long periods without a trimmer coming- warn her about long toes. Educate the owner who feeds pounds of sweet feed and no hay about nutrition. Tell the person who keeps their horse in a filthy dark stall about the need for turnout. Do something useful with your knowledge and help others instead of wasting your time cutting down someone who is successful.

[BornToRide]

If you can prove yourself to be a successful rider/manager of horses, people will pay you to manage and compete their horses.

You're kidding right?! Just simply paying to get up the levels at local events drains the bank account and I don't believe that anyone what freely give money to someone for that. That does not even take into account the costs for keeping the horse and taking frequent lessons AND clinics to advance to a level where some company might consider any kind of sponsorship!


Notably, top horses of all disciplines are managed differently. Different systems work for different people. The people I have met who competed at higher levels all understand nutrition, the importance of proper exercise and conditioning, the fitting of tack, proper shoeing and foot care (per horse
So have I and you know what I frequntly find ? INCREDIBLY tight horses (muscles), probably from a diet that is too high in carbs. I have worked on a very talented stallion - his muscles were rock-hard. He should get a diet chnage and regular bodywork but I could not convince the owner of letting go of some of that traditional thinking. He could be so much better if she did.

What many people believe is muscle bulk is actually fat and water retention form a diet too high in carbs. We also know that it can make the horse tighter and stiffer, but most dressage folks are VERY reluctant to try something that is not rooted in traditional thinking.

You cannot say it will not work unless you at least give it a try, because all you are used to is the status quo.

[BornToRide]

Directly from Brookhouse Stud:


Diamond Hit and Wie Weltmeyer are still barefoot.
Kind regards
Janine Egly



Barefoot Happydance :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[DMK]

You're kidding right?! Just simply paying to get up the levels at local events drains the bank account and I don't believe that anyone what freely give money to someone for that. That does not even take into account the costs for keeping the horse and taking frequent lessons AND clinics to advance to a level where some company might consider any kind of sponsorship!

Woulda coulda shoulda. It's not lost on most of us that some of the top riders in the world were NOT born into money and had to ride a lot of crap and work really hard and long hours to get where they are today. But they were a) talented and b) willing to work really hard rather than c) tell us how hard it is.

Me? I'm not one of those people, but then again I don't whine about it either.

[BornToRide]

I am not whining. I was simply stating the fact that I don't have the money to do it. I wish I could proof that other ways are possible, but I can live without it too because I know eventually someone will :D

[magnolia73]

Just simply paying to get up the levels at local events drains the bank account and I don't believe that anyone what freely give money to someone for that.

There are many posters here that get paid to do just that. To ride people's horses at lower levels. Lots and lots of trainers are out there riding 2'6 hunters, training level dressage horses, BN eventers. My trainer Naomi started as a working student and built her business from there. She has more than one greenie that she is paid to show at lower levels to get the horse trained.

For example, my farrier competes her horses which she shoes successfully. They stay sound at high levels of competition. Therefore I use her to shoe my horse as she has a great advertisement for her success- a successful eventer that stays sounds and moves well. You could for example, go to dressage shows and perhaps hand out business cards. If your horse is moving well and looks good, no doubt you will get some business.

Sell yourself by proving yourself a success. Selling yourself by cutting down others is not the greatest tactic. Especially when the person you are ripping on is having success.... at an international level.....

[DMK]

Sell yourself by proving yourself a success. Selling yourself by cutting down others is not the greatest tactic. Especially when the person you are ripping on is having success.... at an international level.....

Exactly.

A great deal of your posts come off as letting us know how knowledgeable you are and how much better everyone's horse would be if only they followed your guidance.

Could be you are the next greatest thing since sliced bread. Now go prove it off the keyboard.

[ToesIn]

That is great advice for any business, Magnolia. Success sells, not sour grapes.

[BornToRide]

Sell yourself by proving yourself a success. Selling yourself by cutting down others is not the greatest tactic. Especially when the person you are ripping on is having success.... at an international level.....
Do you live in the real world? You need time, money and energy to do that. If you have to work full time to make a living and have family it leaves little time and energy to fully focus on making something like this a success. Perhaps, just perhaps, if you are already working as a dressage rider/trainer somewhere, you might be able to pull something like this off. I don't unless I had the financial freedom that would also give me the time to dedicate to it .

I also fail to see how I am selling myself by cutting others down. Was not my intent, nor do I see this as effective. Success is very relative. Just because a person makes it to the top does not = that there's not room for more improvement! Many, more classical Dressage riders and trainers, would wholeheartedly agree with me on that!

[cosmos mom]

Not hypocritical when Dressage riders regularly refer to themselves, and others in their discipline, as DQs and mean it mostly in a very affectionate manner. The terms "barefoot nazi" and BUA have nothing but derogatory connotations. See the difference? ;)



Unless all dressage riders prefer the term Queen, no difference really. Text makes affectonate connotations very difficult to decipher- especially when the person affectionately using the term goes on that say that they "see bad dressage riding EVERYWHERE."

[DMK]

Do you live in the real world? You need time, money and energy to do that.

I'm seriously questioning if YOU live in the real world. Did you think every new advancement, invention or approach to just about anything on this planet just flew out of the originator's ass and then money and fame showered down upon them? Or is it just possible that they have to fight and sacrifice for what they believe in?

You don't want to? Fine, that's your choice and everyone should respect that. But until you want to put your money where your mouth is, I doubt you are impressing too many people with what amounts to the interweb tube version of backseat driving.

[Jasmine]

How many horses have you owned/bred/trained to upper levels, BTR? Seriously, what the heck makes YOU more qualified to judge dressage horses than any of us? Stop whining about not having the money. If a talented horse can be brought to upper levels barefoot/grainless/all natural, then how many HAVE YOU taken that far? Even one?

I'm noticing that a lot of the backseat Dressage riders all notice lameness in the upper level horses. Lameness that their riders, trainers, owners, and vets all seem to miss. You all must be freaking amazing. I'm surprised that you're not all multi-millionaire veterinarians to the stars by now, what with your vast knowledge of lameness and the causes thereof.

[magnolia73]

Do you live in the real world?

Absolutely. Every day I advise people on real estate. We advocate careful site selection and product design that allows clients to sell themselves vs. cutting down other projects. In this economy, our clients are doing quite well and keeping quite busy. They use positive selling techniques. LOL, a couple of their competitors who sold using scare tactics are ummm- in chapter 11.....

Personally, i do not compete. But I have many friends and associates that compete, raise families and work full time jobs, even ride with a gal that has a barefoot mare that she conditioned and competed in a 25 mile trail ride with. I believe that you should at least have time to ride and train your horse the best you can- surely you have a few free weekends to get to local shows and maybe get some video of your rides to share.

If you are passionate about something- and by your posts, you are passionate about what you do, you will work hard to make it happen and get your proof out there. Get creative- post some video, some photos that show your positive results.

[magnolia73]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25160020@N02/2837705232/in/photostream/

Because I am a photo hor, all dressage people need oversized fly ear nets and their horses would go much better.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25160020@N02/3123757882/in/photostream/

smiling at the photographer does not fix a horse on its forehand apparently.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/25160020@N02/3123789334/in/photostream/

always put your brave friend on your horse when she has not jumped in 6 weeks and it is cool and rainy out. Note: the long toe is an illusion caused vy a floppy bell boot.

[DMK]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25160020@N02/3123793360/in/photostream/

I strongly suggest we get this h/j prospect a lot of help and FAST. But I'm not exactly sure where to begin. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[loshad]

By taking off the shoes, obviously.

[millerra]

I'm noticing that a lot of the backseat Dressage riders all notice lameness in the upper level horses. Lameness that their riders, trainers, owners, and vets all seem to miss. You all must be freaking amazing. I'm surprised that you're not all multi-millionaire veterinarians to the stars by now, what with your vast knowledge of lameness and the causes thereof.

Priceless! :cool: - but I almost spewed pepsi on my keyboard reading it!

[grayarabpony]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25160020@N02/3123793360/in/photostream/

I strongly suggest we get this h/j prospect a lot of help and FAST. But I'm not exactly sure where to begin. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Well, she's hanging a leg (badly) and those boots aren't helping any.

I love her horse though. He's a cutie.

[cosmos mom]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25160020@N02/3123793360/in/photostream/

I strongly suggest we get this h/j prospect a lot of help and FAST. But I'm not exactly sure where to begin. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


She really shows a lot of heart, though! What is it they say about " you can fix a front end, but not a hind end...", wait, maybe it was you can't fix your friend's rear end...I dunno! :lol:

[BornToRide]

How many horses have you owned/bred/trained to upper levels, BTR? Seriously, what the heck makes YOU more qualified to judge dressage horses than any of us? Stop whining about not having the money. If a talented horse can be brought to upper levels barefoot/grainless/all natural, then how many HAVE YOU taken that far? Even one?Bingo, hence the need for more money time and resources which I don't have.

I'm noticing that a lot of the backseat Dressage riders all notice lameness in the upper level horses. Lameness that their riders, trainers, owners, and vets all seem to miss. You all must be freaking amazing. I'm surprised that you're not all multi-millionaire veterinarians to the stars by now, what with your vast knowledge of lameness and the causes thereof I am noticing that a lot of Dressage riders get upset if someone dares to critique their idols/heros in the Dressage arena.

I am a massage therapist who specializes in horse and rider imbalance and I have a very good eye for what is correct and what is not. After all, it keeps me plenty busy!

Bottom line is that a lot of horse show issues under saddle, even at the highest levels. I see a lot of dropped backs and leg movers. Maybe, just maybe, there are other, VERY effective unconventional solutions out there for these issues that are sadly NOT even considered because most people are so terribly stuck in their traditional way of thinking.

This type of thinking is not helping progress - it stifles it. THANK GOD, Emma Hindle still rides Wie Weltmeyer and Diamond Hit barefoot. There is hope - we just need more upper level enlightened riders who are open minded enough to step away from stagnating traditional thinking and trying something new. The movement is growing - I know we will get there eventually one way or another :)

[Capriole]

Directly from Brookhouse Stud:
Diamond Hit and Wie Weltmeyer are still barefoot.
Kind regards
Janine Egly

Barefoot Happydance :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
Wie Weltmyer is retired, so not surprising.

I am shocked at the reply about Diamond Hit. Look at her own website, clearly showing shoes including nail holes and clips:
http://www.brookhousestud.com/2007/_html/main.php?id=8&&taal=en&&page=hengst (click on any pic to enlarge)

[JenEM]

Actually, if you look at the page for the other stallion mentioned, toe clips are clearly visible in his at-liberty shot as well.

[Rick Burten]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNQRfBAzSzo

:)

[Auventera Two]

Wie Weltmyer is retired, so not surprising.

I am shocked at the reply about Diamond Hit. Look at her own website, clearly showing shoes including nail holes and clips:
http://www.brookhousestud.com/2007/_html/main.php?id=8&&taal=en&&page=hengst (click on any pic to enlarge)

I don't really care if the horses are barefoot or not, because I think it's a completely stupid point to be arguing - but - in the spirit of fairness, does anyone know WHEN those photos were taken? They could be older photos? I don't know, I'm just asking.

I clicked the Diamond Hit 2008 video, but the quality isn't good enough to let you see if he has shoes on or not. I didn't see any silver flashes, that you usually see, but again, who the frick cares anyway?! Which GP dressage horse wears shoes and which doesn't is REALLY low on my "to give a crap" list. The horses I trim every day that stay sound and rideable and have happy owners - those are what really matters.

[cyberbay]

BtoRide: looked at Satchmo's extended trot in the photo you posted at beginning of thread. I don't find it a wonderful example of extended trot, honestly. He's flamboyant in the forehand and not so much in the hind end. The front end and hind end don't really mirror each other. Maybe I should re-look, but that's what I recall...

It doesn't always seem productive to pick at the horsemanship of elite competitors. They have different priorities from someone who is embracing everything possible about natural horse care or someone who just likes to weekend trail ride... Elite competitors have special traits -- they get where they get b/c they are intensely competitive. With themselves (perfectionistic), with others. It doesn't always make room for the horse or its total wellbeing. They do what it takes to WIN! Vets who look after those horses are, IMO, more charged with keeping the horse out there on the playing field than making recommendations that might take the horse out of competition but will heal it better. They figure out how to keep the horse going and to have it pass the drug and vet checks. (So, if a top horse seems weird in its way of going, well... your eyes may not be deceiving you...)

That's why I don't think show success at the upper levels is a good judge of a horseman. Although they might be great to train with in your riding. We all think we know what it takes to put a horse in the ring and have it be competitive, but that's only if we're in the barn day in and day out and witness what it takes to get it there -- good and bad, overdoing, drugging, or giving the horse 3 months off to rest an injury but missing selection trials -- you don't know what the rider does or sacrifices unless you're there...

[DMK]

Bingo, hence the need for more money time and resources which I don't have.

And yet you insist on pretending that was not just as true for many others who have made it to the top by virtue of talent and even more importantly, sacrifice and hard work. It's just poor BTR and BTR alone down here with no money, time or resources. :cry:

[JB]

BtoRide: looked at Satchmo's extended trot in the photo you posted at beginning of thread. I don't find it a wonderful example of extended trot, honestly. He's flamboyant in the forehand and not so much in the hind end. The front end and hind end don't really mirror each other. Maybe I should re-look, but that's what I recall...
Exactly, and he's not the only one who does this. This is what I was talking about earlier - front end flash, nothing in the back or hind end to back it up to make it correct.

Until judges stop rewarding that, and start rewarding the less flashy, but more correct horse, people will breed for and ride and show the flashy, incorrect horse, or at least never attempt to train the correctness into him. :(

[BornToRide]

Exactly, and he's not the only one who does this. This is what I was talking about earlier - front end flash, nothing in the back or hind end to back it up to make it correct.

Until judges stop rewarding that, and start rewarding the less flashy, but more correct horse, people will breed for and ride and show the flashy, incorrect horse, or at least never attempt to train the correctness into him. :(Bingo - glad I am not the only one who sees that. :) And I really don't think that they (Brookhousestud) would blatantly lie to me about the horses currently being barefoot !

[magnolia73]

I am a massage therapist who specializes in horse and rider imbalance and I have a very good eye for what is correct and what is not. After all, it keeps me plenty busy!

I think a lot of top people have massage therapists and chiros on staff for their horses. I would imagine that is a business that you could easily grow. Most of the competitive riders I have known take quite seriously the recommendations of their massage therapists and chiros.

I know that some old school people scoff at chiro and massage, but it seems like it has really caught on.

If I were you , and your goal was to work on upper level horses, I'd start putting together case studies of how you helped various horses. Some before and after video would work great. Then you could come and say - yeah, I worked on a horse that was out like Satchmo and after X treatment, he moved like this.

[foursocks]

I'm not entirely sure, BTR, where you get this notion that all of these top competitors are stuck in what you call "traditional" ways of thinking.

Do you know the regimens for these horses? Have you discussed their care with their handlers and vets and so on? Have you observed them schooling at home? Do you discuss training with the owners, trainers, etc? On what do you base these damning opinions- some videos on youtube?

As well, how do you define traditional? In many countries gelding male horses is not even considered to be an option. Whose "tradition" is better? Could it perhaps be the context that is important? The goals of the riders, the conformation of the horse, the use it gets?

Having shoes or not is something about which every age of horsemen have made decisions. It is not new, it is as old as the domestication of horses and their use as pack and riding animals. So are arguments about the best feed for horses, what sort of hay, stalls or no stalls, types of saddles, bits, etc etc etc etc etc, ad nauseum, until the end of days.

If you have the best, most fabulous, most successful care and training program for all horses, ever, then go out and prove it. Whining about not having the time, energy or money is pretty silly when one considers all that other people have done and do despite being in those exact circumstances.

I bought my horse for pennies and despite being perpetually busy, over-worked, not exceptionally talented in the saddle and not at all wealthy I have made him up into something worth exponentially more. My trainer and I use both older and newer ideas and methods and have found a program that works for everyone- and that we change as necessary. This is not rocket science, it is common sense and good horsemanship, and those things cover a broader range of options than narrow views of what will suit every horse, every situation.