REALLY need understanding, competent farrier/trimmer

[Rebmik]

I've asked before and didn't get much back, but I really need some suggestions.
I need a farrier that will trim a draft with EPSM/shivers and understands these problems and will work with me and the horse.
Near Richmond,VA
I've had -0- luck. Thought I had one, last time he was here 2cc of demosedan later he said, "nope, can't be done today" horse tried 3 times to pull hoove away from hoofjack.
Just need someone willing to work with the issues and that knows what they are doing.
PLEASE PM with ANY suggestions.

[Stacie]

There are a couple of draft breeders in the Richmond area. I would cold call them and see who they can recommend. Look for clydesdale and percheron breeders on-line to find the numbers.

[BornToRide]

That's a tough one, especially since the horse is a draft. My gelding used to do that when he had mild EPSM symptoms.

Is there nothing you can possibly still do diet wise that might reduce the symptoms further? Have you thoroughly exhausted all those options, like making sure he gets a no more than approx 12% NSC diet and gets enough selenium and magnesium?

Best wishes!!

[ChocoMare]

Although I can't help with a recommendation, I will tell you what my farrier/trimmer and I did with my Percheron when she was at her worst.

In the very beginning, we'd use a big (but steady) rock to put the hoof on. Now, granted...my trimmer uses a hand grinder, which made it a) easier on her and b) faster on Tank. By using the rock, though, she was able to get just enough ground clearance to trim but not so much that Tank couldn't balance for that short period of time. If she did "fall off the rock," we'd just walk her a minute to relax her and try again. Little by little, very slowly and very patiently. Never drugged.

After 3 trims, we moved up to an old fashioned metal milk crate. She'd put Tank's hoof on the corner and then my trimmer would put a foot on the rest of the crate. It was still low enough, though, that Tank could keep her balance.

It took a full year before my trimmer could use a regular hoof stand. By this time, she'd been on the right diet and gained confidence so balancing has never again been an issue.

Key to all this was me working with Tank in between trims, never pulling her leg out from under her body, never holding it too high and giving her reassurance that she could have her hoof back any time.

Keep looking and asking for recommendations. If at all possible, try and find a trimmer that uses a grinder. Trust me, it makes the job easier for all involved.

[ManyDogs]

This subject will really help me get my PerchX trained. Farrier was out once and she wasn't bad, just -as he said- "unlearned". He recommended I take her to a semi-local trainer but "don't watch how he trains her"-uh, no, I don't think so :mad:.
We are working on lifting hooves/legs and she is getting more ho-hum about it. It is very, very, very difficult down here to find someone who will trim a draft x. Luckily her hooves are good and get a lot of natural wear since she is out 24/7. I fret about them but it's almost like they trim themselves (?).
She is responding well to clicker training (and Peeps :lol:) so working with her using the rock/milk crate method will be next on the agenda.

[Alexie]

i found that sticking a bucket of food in front of his face when it came to the stressful bit (nailing on in his case) took his mind off his troubles and he would forget/stop worrying about his leg being in the air and relax.
this helped his shivering enough so the farrier could do what he needed to.

[ChocoMare]

Alexie: while that "trick" is usually effective with most horses, when you have a horse with EPSM/shivers as bad as Rebmik does/I did, it won't work. The horse is so uncomfortable and terrified of falling down, they don't pay attention to the feed...only to what someone's trying to do to their feet!

[monstrpony]

Chocomare has great suggestions. The only one I would add is to ask the farrier to take it slow, slow, slow. It IS a confidence issue for these horses. I have a wonderful farrier, but it took him a long time to be convinced it was a real issue. There were some days we just didn't mess w/ Monstr's hind end; fortunately, he wore his back feet almost perfectly anyway and needed very little work on them.

[Auventera Two]

Can the horse be trimmed up against a wall, on rubber mats, or in shavings? I would think standing out in the open on concrete would be the worst. You might have to offer to pay double or triple the trim fee also. For most trimmers and farriers, the possibility of getting crushed under 2,000 pounds of horse is not worth that $30 trim fee.

[Rebmik]

That's a tough one, especially since the horse is a draft. My gelding used to do that when he had mild EPSM symptoms.

Is there nothing you can possibly still do diet wise that might reduce the symptoms further? Have you thoroughly exhausted all those options, like making sure he gets a no more than approx 12% NSC diet and gets enough selenium and magnesium?

Best wishes!!

YUP, have worked with Dr. Valentine and Dr. Valberg for past year. NOTHING more to do with diet.

[Rebmik]

Although I can't help with a recommendation, I will tell you what my farrier/trimmer and I did with my Percheron when she was at her worst.

In the very beginning, we'd use a big (but steady) rock to put the hoof on. Now, granted...my trimmer uses a hand grinder, which made it a) easier on her and b) faster on Tank. By using the rock, though, she was able to get just enough ground clearance to trim but not so much that Tank couldn't balance for that short period of time. If she did "fall off the rock," we'd just walk her a minute to relax her and try again. Little by little, very slowly and very patiently. Never drugged.

After 3 trims, we moved up to an old fashioned metal milk crate. She'd put Tank's hoof on the corner and then my trimmer would put a foot on the rest of the crate. It was still low enough, though, that Tank could keep her balance.

It took a full year before my trimmer could use a regular hoof stand. By this time, she'd been on the right diet and gained confidence so balancing has never again been an issue.

Key to all this was me working with Tank in between trims, never pulling her leg out from under her body, never holding it too high and giving her reassurance that she could have her hoof back any time.

Keep looking and asking for recommendations. If at all possible, try and find a trimmer that uses a grinder. Trust me, it makes the job easier for all involved.

THAT's the problem.
I need a farrier/trimmer who wants to be creative in finding ways to make this guy more comfortable during his trims. Not only using a hoof jack at the highest setting.

[Rebmik]

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;3746710]Can the horse be trimmed up against a wall, on rubber mats, or in shavings? I would think standing out in the open on concrete would be the worst. You might have to offer to pay double or triple the trim fee also. For most trimmers and farriers, the possibility of getting crushed under 2,000 pounds of horse is not worth that $30 trim fee.[/QUOTE

We've tried the wall, he just gets too uneasy, even doped.
I pay this farrier anywhere from $35 -$100.00 more than he asks for EVERY TIME.
I totally understand not wanting to work with an unruly horse draft or otherwise. THis is NOT the case. When his EPSM is doing better (this past summer) he was much better, it is NOT a training issue, I wish it was that easy. He can barely turn around right now. Seems to do much worse in the cold and also the ground here is muddy, muck and slick as @$#% and he has trouble just keeping himself steady in the pasture! :cry:

STACIE
I don't know of any big draft breeders in Richmond????? I am member of VDHMA and don't see any in that area.

[ChocoMare]

.... Not only using a hoof jack at the highest setting.


What?!?! Oh dear...totally unacceptable :cry: Poor boy! :(

You may want to try joining/posting over on the Hoof Care forum at www.horsecity.com (http://www.horsecity.com) -- Some good folks post there and might know of a patient, understanding trimmer.

I really wish you were in GA! My trimmer and I would be glad to work with you and your horse. :sigh:

[Rebmik]

CHOCOMARE
thanks I will try there as well
Have posted on draft boards, they just don't seem to have as much activity and/or no one responds.
We are totally willing to pay someone worth their time and then some to be understanding and knowledgeable!!!!!!!!!!!

[BornToRide]

Do you also frequently check his selenium levels and is he getting magnesium as well?
Any soy he may be getting that's also causing him possibly issues?

I have a client who has an Arab who cannot lift one of the hinds. We try to get him to rest it on the ground on the toe. It's tricky but it works if we can get him to do it. They have sand in the paddock, so I also dig around the hoof to get enough clearance so I can rasp the front and sides. This works pretty well. It is not perfect, but it gets the job done well enough!

[Penthilisea]

Is there anyone local with a true set of stocks? A good set will allow the horse to lift all four feet and still be safe and secure, likewise, relieves the farrier of the nessecity of balancing or holding up the leg. When built and secured by a pro this is a VERY humane method of working on horses who have a variety of physical or behavioral issues.

This (http://www.carolinafarrier.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/horsestocks.jpg)is close to what I have seen, only made of metal and with more options for tying etc.

[Lieslot]

Rebmik, I know how frustrating this can be.
I hope you can find some knowledgeable and above all patient farrier.

It's so hard having to trim (or in my case shoe) those horses.

Just to give you an idea, when my shivers horse is going to through a bad bout, we can end up having to give him "1.2cc Domosedan + 0.7cc Torbugesic" and that will just about give us 20 minutes time to quickly shoe his hinds. So it may well be that you have to up the sedation dose for your horse.

Luckily enough my farrier is very understanding and has been told by my vet that this horse really cannot help it.

It's so tough. I'm having a not so fun time at present too, screwing in studs in his hinds for the snow & ice we have. The other day it took me an hour to screw in 4 studs :sadsmile:. Bless his heart, he knew he needed them and desperately tried to cooperate, but at times he really cannot hold his leg long enough for me to clean, re-thread & screw them in. I know what it's like....:cry:
Good luck I hope you find someone soon!

[Rebmik]

Rebmik, I know how frustrating this can be.
I hope you can find some knowledgeable and above all patient farrier.

It's so hard having to trim (or in my case shoe) those horses.

Just to give you an idea, when my shivers horse is going to through a bad bout, we can end up having to give him "1.2cc Domosedan + 0.7cc Torbugesic" and that will just about give us 20 minutes time to quickly shoe his hinds. So it may well be that you have to up the sedation dose for your horse.

Luckily enough my farrier is very understanding and has been told by my vet that this horse really cannot help it.

It's so tough. I'm having a not so fun time at present too, screwing in studs in his hinds for the snow & ice we have. The other day it took me an hour to screw in 4 studs :sadsmile:. Bless his heart, he knew he needed them and desperately tried to cooperate, but at times he really cannot hold his leg long enough for me to clean, re-thread & screw them in. I know what it's like....:cry:
Good luck I hope you find someone soon!

GOsh, that does really help. I used 2 cc domosedan, 1/2 torb/ xlyazine, he was out, but just couldn't hold it and farrier lost it, then I feel guilty that my horse is not cooperating, when in fact, he's doing all he can.
My husband is looking at welding some stocks for him, but need someone until then and someone who is knowledgeable about trimming/shoeing in stocks, (totally different) and horse must be trained to be "okay" in stocks.
Do you shoe and use studs just because of the snow? Not for riding or showing right now? I wondered if I shouldn't consider shoeing w/ studs to help him, but then I hate the thought of what a disaster the pasture will be, it already is horrible with 2 - 2000lb drafts and their hooves, much less shoes with studs.
Lieslot thank you for being sympathetic to our serious issues...it helps

[ChocoMare]

Considering the severity of his EPSM/shivers, I'd hold off on shoeing. As you well know, trimming him takes long enough, so why prolong the session?

If you can find someone to show you the basics of trimming...nothing fancy...just rounding off the toe, taking down flare, etc., do you think you could do, say, one hoof a day?...even half a hoof?

You know the horse better than anyone, his limitations, his issues, etc. Consequently you alone could have the patience to work within his comfort level and with no time schedule to follow, you'd not be in any hurry.

It's because I've learned the basics of trimming, while under the eagle-eye tutelage of my trimmer, that I'm now trimming both my mares myself. This has proven very beneficial to my Percheron, because I can keep working on her hoof issues every 2 - 3 weeks and have seen much greater improvement than my trimmer ever could--not because she's incapable (far from it!) but simply because I can tweak little things regularly. My trimmer then comes out every 8 - 12 weeks to check my work. I'm not totally able to fly solo yet!

Just a thought to consider.

[Lieslot]

HI Rebmik.
I shoe him because in deep snow or deep mud he cannot hold his balance in the hind end. Weakness related to the shivers I've been told.
Before I knew what exactly was going on, in winter he'd repearedly be falling in the pasture (fully body on the ground :(). His hind legs would go underneath him and the next thing, he'd slam his pelvis on the floor and be down.
It was so scary. So after discussing with vet & mostly farrier we decided that in winter he needs an overkill of traction so to speak. And it has worked. Ever since I started shoeing him on the hinds and screw in studs when ground conditions or either deep or slippery, he hasn't fallen anymore whatsoever and can go around trotting, cantering without me having to worry he'll hit the floor again.

But trying to shoe him is at times so hard. This summer I was getting very excited as we had managed to lower the sedation dose big time and still managed to shoe him. But that seemed to have been short lived, because now we are back up to needing very high doses to buy us 20 minutes to shoe him. It's not so much the Domosedan, as Domosedan alone never works for him, it's really the addition of a good dose of Torbugesic that allows us to shoe him. With enough Torbugesic he can lift up the foot very well. My farrier can even put his hinds on the high hoofstand without him pulling it back at all. It works great.
I don't like giving him all those drugs, but if it means that this is the only way and in 20 minutes we are done and the horse stays calm, rather that then an hour of fighting with him and my horse getting frustrated and worried.

As for the pasture, really the addition of some small road or ice studs, won't make any difference to the 'wreckage' done. It's just those silly horses slamming their big feeties in the mud that wrecks it, I doubt studs will make that any worse.

I feel with you, :sadsmile:.

[Rebmik]

Is there anyone local with a true set of stocks? A good set will allow the horse to lift all four feet and still be safe and secure, likewise, relieves the farrier of the nessecity of balancing or holding up the leg. When built and secured by a pro this is a VERY humane method of working on horses who have a variety of physical or behavioral issues.

This (http://www.carolinafarrier.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/horsestocks.jpg)is close to what I have seen, only made of metal and with more options for tying etc.

It's actually on my husband's "to do list". He's very good at welding and said he could actually weld a set of stocks that would definitely hold him....it's just getting to the "honey do list" ;)

[Rebmik]

Considering the severity of his EPSM/shivers, I'd hold off on shoeing. As you well know, trimming him takes long enough, so why prolong the session?

If you can find someone to show you the basics of trimming...nothing fancy...just rounding off the toe, taking down flare, etc., do you think you could do, say, one hoof a day?...even half a hoof?

You know the horse better than anyone, his limitations, his issues, etc. Consequently you alone could have the patience to work within his comfort level and with no time schedule to follow, you'd not be in any hurry.

It's because I've learned the basics of trimming, while under the eagle-eye tutelage of my trimmer, that I'm now trimming both my mares myself. This has proven very beneficial to my Percheron, because I can keep working on her hoof issues every 2 - 3 weeks and have seen much greater improvement than my trimmer ever could--not because she's incapable (far from it!) but simply because I can tweak little things regularly. My trimmer then comes out every 8 - 12 weeks to check my work. I'm not totally able to fly solo yet!

Just a thought to consider.


YES, something else on my "honey do list". When we got the horse I was planning on my husband learning and being able to do it ourselves, but with this issue, we haven't taken it on.
However, a friend's husband is a big tbred farrier in the area and said he would try to help us out and see if he can get us trimming so, like you said we can do it when he feels better and little bits at a time.
Has anyone ever used a roto clip? someone gave me one and husbands said could fit on some tool of his, it just seems you'd have to be very careful because of so much you'd be able to take off, but in a short period of time, which would work so he wouldn't have to hold his leg up so long

[HoustonFarrier]

Your horse would probably do much better in a set of stocks....

http://inlinethumb18.webshots.com/43537/2946446720053248425S425x425Q85.jpg

This guy is an aged Belgian with hind end "issues". I use a set of grinders when trimming him, so that he is in and out quickly.

You can probably BUY a set of stocks like these cheaper than what it would cost in steel to make a set?

Good luck !!

Steve

[Rebmik]

Your horse would probably do much better in a set of stocks....

http://inlinethumb18.webshots.com/43537/2946446720053248425S425x425Q85.jpg

This guy is an aged Belgian with hind end "issues". I use a set of grinders when trimming him, so that he is in and out quickly.

You can probably BUY a set of stocks like these cheaper than what it would cost in steel to make a set?

Good luck !!

Steve

Yeah, a friend gave me a roto clip, but think it might be dangerous to use a grinder in the wrong hands.
For some reason I thought Husband actually said he could weld aluminum to be ridiculous strong (maybe I'm wrong, i'll have to check)
I may be able to pick up a used set now too b/c of economy and so many drafts on the market.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it takes 1. a farrier that is experienced using stocks 2. a horse that has had training being trimmed in the stocks?
Not just get 'em, throw horse in and any farrier could do right?:confused:
STILL WAITING FOR SOMEONE TO TELL ME OF A FARRIER I MUST USE!!!!

[J.D.]

Lieslot...... This summer I was getting very excited as we had managed to lower the sedation dose big time and still managed to shoe him. But that seemed to have been short lived, because now we are back up to needing very high doses to buy us 20 minutes to shoe him. .
Sedation is a good idea for a "Shivered horse"; done my share.
What maybe needed is a "cocktail" ; a mixture of 2-3 chemicals in a small dosage. All "tranqs" work differently on the nervous system. A combination maybe in order. Just an opinion with numerous "Realities" with "Shivered" and other neurological maladies.:)

[BumbleBee]

It's actually on my husband's "to do list". He's very good at welding and said he could actually weld a set of stocks that would definitely hold him....it's just getting to the "honey do list" ;)

I hope you realize the farriers aren't incompetent they are worried for their safety. Until you have been under a horse like this you have no idea how easily you can be crushed.

Get the stocks build to protect the farrier so he/she can do their job.

[Daydream Believer]

I'm about 2 hours from Richmond one way (Suffolk) and it would be a long drive to come up to do one horse. I could not do it for less than your current farrier...just the gas/time would be a killer. Have you tried putting his foot on a wooden block and you farrier rasping the walls from the top and side rather than getting "under" the horse the usual way? Trimming from the top is nice because the horse can hold their foot to the front on a low hoof jack or even a block of wood and the trimmer can work on the walls from the side and top.

The back feet are trimmed forward and under the horse also which really helps some with stability and comfort.

Can you haul to meet someone if necessary?

[HoustonFarrier]

Yeah, a friend gave me a roto clip, but think it might be dangerous to use a grinder in the wrong hands.
I would agree. I am VERY experienced using a grinder, and I have a roto-clip head for my grinder, but even I rarely use it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it takes 1. a farrier that is experienced using stocks 2. a horse that has had training being trimmed in the stocks?
Not just get 'em, throw horse in and any farrier could do right

#1 - Most definatly. #2....not really. If the farrier KNOWS what he/she is doing, and has allot of experience, they'll know how to handle the "newbies" safely.

If you follow this link http://pets.webshots.com/album/559504505xaIhbA

You'll see me doing a "roping" demo for handling draft feet too...it may be of use?

Best of luck

Steve

[NancyM]

I have not had to deal with a problem like this myself, but I do have friends who have used the rotating stocks to trim feet on 100 + PMU mares. The stocks turn on their side, laying the horses down, to work on feet. These mares do not get much training or handling, but still need their feet done. Dairy cows are trimmed in much the same way. Evidently, the horses do not fight this procedure, but lay quiet. Then are turned back up again onto their feet when completed, and released. The rotating stocks are mobile, on a trailer, so the trimmer/practitioner travels from farm to farm with them. I have not seen this performance myself, but do have confidence in my friends as good horsemen. Anybody else ever seen this done with horses? Might it be a solution in this case?