Am I the blame for this ?? Could it be his diet?HELP!!

[sweetpea]

I am dealing with some different attitudes with my jumper.
He is a gelding 8 yrs old 1200-1300 lbs.
Appendix --- mainly TB according to bloodlines
Acts and looks like a TB
Worked 5-6 days a week varying basic dressage -- Jump 2- 3 times a week nothing incredible just varying gymnastics.

My goal with his diet is to provide enough energy that he is not crazy
Keeping weight on is not the main issue but having him at that good weight look I strive to maintain.
In the past he was on a diet that consisted of:

mixed hay 2 large flakes 2 x's a day and was turned out 24-7
and 6-8 lbs of Trifecta {buckeye}
1 lb of buckeyes fat -- can't think of it -- all I think is Progressive's Envision

When worked on this diet 15 - 20 minutes in the ride tight and grumpy and at the end of ride seemed fizzeled out.

New Diet for the last two years with tweaks:

Total feed for the day:
10 cups beet pulp-- soaked to the hilt
1 quart oats
8 oz flax
4 cups seeds
4 cups Progressive Grass Balancer

Mixed hay lots of it

I know have plent of energy and he never gets tight and grumpy- but in the last 6 months he looks at stuff like he never did before. He might have glanced but now it is so prominent.
I am not after the training side , I think I have it covered.
But If I am providing to much energy and I caused the boogie man , then I feel terrible.
Pain and Ulcer issues are ruled out.

I have my own thoughts but before I list them I like some opinion's. Thank you

[deltawave]

If the diet has been the same for 24 months and the spookies have only been there for six months, I'd probably look elsewhere first: boredom, sourness, eye issues, learned evasion, etc.

If, on the other hand, there could have been some slight variations in the feed (I'm thinking hay--unless you have just ONE supplier and the hay is always the same) that might be problematic. Had the hay analyzed? Third cutting stuff can be higher in nutrients than first cutting, etc. . . maybe that's part of the puzzle?

[sweetpea]

Well what I tweaked in the 24 months is I used to use envision as a fat source,
but my gosh it has gone up, so I switched slowly to Boss. And yes the hay is always varying sad to say. I do think some training issues have crept in . But this is snorty like!!!!
I am just wondering could the protein be to high??? Or did you think it sounded like too much??

[Simkie]

Protein does not make a horse hot. A horse fed too many calories might be hot, and a horse fed high NSC might be hot.

If your horse is looking at things since you've made the switch to BOSS, there's your answer. If you need a less expensive fat source, consider using oil.

[sweetpea]

Well that is my thought is it to much calories??? Cause I know Boss is the low on the NSC chart. I would rather lessen oats since he digest boss so well and OMG the nutritional value is outstanding. Any thoughts on The balancer??

[BornToRide]

Ditch the oats and Pro Grass balancer for a while, You will most likely notice changes within just a week or two, if they are causing the issues you are experiencing. To be on the safe side, wait at least 3 - 4 weeks.

Then add one thing at a time to see what causes it. What's on the Pro Grass Balancer label? I cannot see it on-line. If it contains soy meal in any way, it could also be a contributing factor, as it seems more horses react to it than not.

Did you his diet change in any way 6 months ago or did his exercise levels drop then?

[Simkie]

Well, that would not even approach "too many calories" for any horse I've ever had, but I don't know about your particular horse.

Oats are high NSC. If you think he's sensitive, I'd cut out the oats.

Keep in mind that BOSS is high in omega 6s, which can contribute to inflammation. If he has any issues, a diet high in omega 6 MAY aggravate whatever he has going on.

[EqTrainer]

I've had a couple of horses turn into nut jobs on BOSS.

I'd add back the Envision and cut the BOSS and oats.


Slowly add oats back in later if he needs more energy.

[sweetpea]

1st ingredient is Soybean Meal
Heat Processed Soybeans
further down Soybean Oil


As far as the Boss I have read about the Omega 6 and I think just from the Omega 6 angle I am okay --- Some 6 is not bad , I also give 6 oz of flax though.

During the Summer I was giving more Pro AD I was giving 2 lbs a day as to now 1 lb
I also was feeding 2 lbs oats.

My thought on the Pro ad is does it build up with soy -- I know that must sound silly.

Exercise wise - It is about the same - just noticing the boogie man is more apparent.
Fortunately he keeps me thinking -- shoulder in , transitions anything to keep his mind !!

DO I have to feed a balancer if I came back with a multivitamin?
I do add tri-amino since I have lowered his Pro Ad.

Could his diet be lacking in something else???

I am not sure but I think the envsion is soybased too.

[Posting Trot]

The diet may not be lacking anything, but your horse may be sensitive to some aspect of the diet. The only way to figure that out is to change one thing at a time and give the change a week or two to see if the diet change has any impact on his behavior. So, gradually, for example, get rid of the oats and replace with something else, and see if that makes a difference. Or gradually get rid of the BOSS and see if that makes a difference.

But it's a good idea to have the vet out to do a full work-up. Check the eyes, have the vet draw some blood to look for any deficiencies or underlying infections, etc.

I'd also look for soreness in the horse which can be a sign of arthritis, or an ill-fitting saddle, or hoof imbalances or underlying infection.

Good luck.

[BornToRide]

1st ingredient is Soybean Meal
Heat Processed Soybeans
further down Soybean Oil

Not good - check some of the soy threads here to see what people have experienced with it and their horses.
If I was you the first thing I''d do, if the horse seems otherwise fine and has good appetite, is withhold the oats and ProGrass balancer for at least 2 - 4 weeks just to see what I'd get.

[deltawave]

I do think some training issues have crept in .

Before turning a feeding program that has worked fine for your horse totally upside-down and inside-out, why not focus a little bit more on this? It's so tempting to get into the mode that EVERY behavioral problem is feed-based, but in my long and painful experience (just one out of thousands, I realize) feed is NEVER and NEVER has been the cause of behavior issues with my horses. It is ALWAYS, ALWAYS a training issue, and one that's caused by me and nobody else virtually every time. Harder to digest, yes, than blaming the food (pun intended) but IME always the issue. :)

[BornToRide]

Wise trainers adjust the diet first because they know it can be the source of many training and bahavioral problems. Why address it backwards, potentially set the horse and owner up for failure or worse injury when it is such an easy test??!!

If that has no impact, then it can still be addressed solely as a training issue.

[deltawave]

Not my wise trainers. :) Behavioral problems are training issues until proven otherwise, IMO. I realize this CANNOT be taken or used as a blanket statement or philosophy, but especially for a horse that has been doing just fine on a particular and thoughtfully-planned diet, a subtle and gradual change in behavior like this, particularly when the rider acknowledges some "training issues", is probably not an occult and sudden problem with feeding.

IME getting a pro who knows the horse in the saddle is the quickest and easiest way to figure out behavior problems. :) There is nothing "easy" about turning a feeding program upside down trying to find the culprit, especially when many riders in boarding situations don't have the luxury of dictating every morsel that goes into their horses' stomachs.

Then again, I have healthy, normal horses without long lists of "issues". Maybe that has something to do with it?

[Evalee Hunter]

Hey, over here, please:

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=181698

[deltawave]

Gotcha covered, Evalee. :)

[Altamont Sport Horses]

I'm thinking there may be multiple issues in addition to the NSC in oats. 1) not sufficient QUALITY protein (including all amino acids) is causing the horse to lose energy quickly and 2) spookiness caused by insufficient vitamins/minerals especially magnesium. And then of course if the horse is physically or mentally uncomfortable because of the diet he will pick-up his training diversions along the way by trial and error.

Let me preface this by saying I do not know much about the grass balancer you have been feeding. But I would try to avoid soy and I would be concerned about getting enough protein of high quality. Beet pulp does not have a lot of protein in it and it is probably lacking in amino acids. I have a 4 year old horse that I suspect is a little sensitive to NSC. I took him off anything suggestive of "grain". He now gets only some alfalfa pellets twice a day so I can give him some vitamin and mineral supplements, etc. and some rice bran. The rest of his diet is an average quality Bahia grass hay that we get from various suppliers in the area so the nutritional content varies. He was on that diet for almost 4 weeks and I saw an improvement in his feet (stronger laminar connection near the coronary band) but was concerned about his vitamins/minerals. I started adding flax seed and Foxden Equine's LinPro supplement based on our resident COTHer Melyni's advice. After only one week he is acting like a different horse. Much calmer. He is a quiet horse but had gotten spooky about new situations and I thought it was due only to a bad experience he had that had shaken his confidence (onset coincided time-wise.) I am definitely encouraged by what seems to be due to the LinPro and perhaps the addition of flax seed although I haven't been giving a lot of flax (only 4 oz/day). I've started giving the LinPro to a couple of other horses too and they all seem to think it tastes fine. It smells great to me. :)

You can buy LinPro in 5 lb bags and I didn't even finish a bag before I saw results so if you wanted to try just one bag it wouldn't be too big of an investment. http://www.foxdenequine.com/linpro.htm

You shouldn't have to worry about making your horse hot from protein per se. Working horses that get hot on higher protein diets tend to do so because they end up eating too many calories/energy (protein does have calories) and then need to burn it off. And horses that are getting too much protein when they aren't working will have excess energy to burn as well. Working horses are using their muscles and building them up. Muscle development requires complete protein. I would rather give a higher quality protein in better quantity and lower the amount of starch in order to keep the calories and energy reasonable and have a healthier and happier horse as a result.

[Daydream Believer]

I know some of you think I'm nuts but I won't stop sharing my experience this summer with my horses on a soy based RB...same one this person is using. I had a suckling foal turn stark raving loco...very spooky, shy, claustrophobic and she went from normal to like this AFTER she started eating the RB. We took her off of it and she started acting normal within days. I cannot imagine what else could have caused it considering removing the feed returned her to normal. She is now a normal weanling, calm, and catchable...etc...

We had a WB turn very belligerent on it also. One who had come in from another barn that got put on the RB. Taking them off the feed returned them to normal fairly quickly. My experience was so bad...about 40% of the horses on it experienced negative changes, that I have removed all soy from their diet. Mine are now on alf. pellets, a tiny amount of oats to some of the young stock, and a very good supplement that is soy free. No more problems and all are doing very well.

Melyni Worth of Foxden has posted several times that she believes that the protein breakdown in some of these high protein feeds CAN cause hyper behavior in some horses also. She said that alfalfa can do the same thing to some horses as does the soy.

[BornToRide]

I really do not believe that protein causes hotness in horses. Alfalfa can also be rather high in sugars, especially the rich stuff we have around here.

[woops]

Actually the diet sounds pretty clean without alot of fillers we get stuck with.
My only thought is what about Magnesium??? Sometimes a lack of produces such a over stimulated effect. They are actually depleted and maybe your only problem -- Just a thought.

[sweetpea]

Now that you mention it I used to have him on a supplement from United Vet or Med vet
http://unitedvetequine.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=64720720a&Category_Code=scdry&Product_Count=2

I took him off of it probaly last spring. COuld this be it????

I talked with ELTOVAR and ohhh she is so smart and she said too that sometimes when they are depleted they act really up.

The best description is stimulated of adrenalized!!

Training Issues-- I think I referenced this part wrong-- What I did wrong is I allowed my trainer to be too aggressive when something went wrong like a refusal . NOW I am trying to the less stress approach and build his confidence that I am not just going to whip the tar out of him. He is naturally towards the hot side .
And I am not a hand holder but If you blow fire on fire it only gets hotter!!

Protein-
I know he is getting enough and that was a good change from two years ago , I saw a nice difference in his muscles!!

I took away the boss for now cause I want to make one change at time but do you think I should add the magnesium??

[BornToRide]

Yes, but the root problem is most likely the extra sugar and starch you are feeding him. You may be able to get him back to normal by controlling the NSC intake rather than adding another supplement. In other words you'd be wasting your money by adding something he may not need at all, if the excess sugars and starches are removed from his diet!

[sweetpea]

With the diet I described where do you think it is to high in sugar and starch.
The only area I think of would be oats ?? But at 2 lbs a day is that bad??
And my frustration is why now??

The only other thing I thought of last night was back in the summer he got stung by a bee and OMG he broke out in hives and it lit him up to high heaven.. Over stimulated immune system???

[BornToRide]

Absolutely it can be too much, especially combined with this, which is in the ProGrass balancer:

1st ingredient is Soybean Meal
Heat Processed Soybeans
further down Soybean Oil

I would remove both for a while, just to see what you get, then perhaps add the oats back in, if necessary and see how he tolerates that. Then add the ProGrass balancer again. If he starts acting up again on either then you know what the problem is.
Read up on the soy thread here to see how many problems people had with it and thier horses.

[sweetpea]

Okay , for now I removed the boss--
If I remove the oats and Pro Ad what do I feed -- Just beet pulpl & hay??

[foursocks]

Deltawave-

I generally agree with you about considering the training before going crazy with switching food, but I do have my own anecdotal experience to add. We were trying to put weight on my boy and upped his feed. He gets a really high-quality granola- low sugar, very little filler, etc.- and Ultimate Finish. Anyway, upping his grain by just four cups a day turned him, over a period of a couple of weeks, into a spooky, stressed-out, wired, unhappy dingbat. He is always very high-energy and fit but he is also very sensible. Too much food = TOTAL MORON. :lol:

We dropped his grain back down, gave him more hay, and voila- I had my horse back again. *And* the extra feeding of hay at lunchtime put his weight on. Just something to consider.

[BornToRide]

Yes. You can use a supplement like Equipride which is low in NSCs and has no soy. You could also add some alfalfa, if he tolerates that. Little amounts usually are tolerated, but it can also make a horse hot, if too much for a paticular horse.

[LoveMyArabians]

Dumb question... but what is the BOSS that is mentioned so many times in this thread?

Thanks,
Cindy

[woops]

Black Oil Sunflower Seeds

[LoveMyArabians]

Black Oil Sunflower Seeds

Thanks so much... I thought that was it, but wasn't sure.

Cindy

[EqTrainer]

FWIW, Op - my horse eat the Progressive Diet Balancer and do really well on it - very quiet, excellent feet and hair coats, they look and feel great.

Really.. soy may be an issue for some horses.. but obviously not all of them!

[Daydream Believer]

Really.. soy may be an issue for some horses.. but obviously not all of them!

I don't think anyone said it was but like I said, I will continue to repeat my experience until the word get out on these products...that they can be a major problem for some horses. :) In my experience I had about 40% of my horses and the boarders in total that were on it out of 28 horses have issue that resolved when it was removed from their diet and their feed was changed. Even if our problem was enhanced by genetics and my breed being the majority of the horses on it...even 10 or 20% can add up to a lot of horses having issues. It just isn't worth the risk to me. Too many other feeds available without that sort of risk one can feed.

[BornToRide]

I agree with Daydream. What I also often find is that people do not recognize subtle symptoms, or attribute the symptoms to something else. That makes it hard to convince someoen that the feed might be an issue.

[sweetpea]

Okay let's say it is SOY --- Why after almost 2 years.

I did talk with a progressive rep and he said that if it was the case -- It would have showed up way earlier.

I hate this time -- Feed Limbo!!!!

Like I said for now I removed the Boss to try one thing at a time.

[enjoytheride]

But this horse has been on the same thing for 2 years and he's just now having behavior problems so how can it be the food?

[sweetpea]

Well it has been probaly the last 6 months and as I posted before I transitioned a few things in his diet -- But the Pro ad by progressive yes has been the same. I also recalled that I used to use a magnesium product called calmex- on the maintenance dose .
But I backed off this probaly last spring.

The one thing I definetly have learned about this horse is he is sensitive.
Example : WHen I go for Chiro/Acc they inject I think B-12 - Well that lights him up for several days. Had a bee sting this summer---- Hives all over and had the jitters .
Used equistem when shipping---- felt good enough for 4 horses.

Riding wise - He is a true partner - but with him not loving to be in his own skin it has made it hard to figure out.

That is why I am leaving Boss out for now-- since I had read that it can stimulate the immune system with the omega's 6. This I was giving the most of.

[BornToRide]

DO NOT let this distract you. Sometimes it takes time for things to show up for whatever reason, could be that the horse finally developed an allergy to soy or something else, making him react more . Could be that they are using a differnt form of soy for example. Could be GE soy, or the processing of the soy changed, etc.

Or it could have taken two years to negatively affect the thyroid and adrenals.

I would still try removing both - it is easy to do and will not harm the horse! If it is not the cause fine, great, but at least you were able to rule it out :)

[deltawave]

If the horse was totally OK for 2 years on the new-and-improved diet, why was he getting a calming supplement?

This is why these things are so confusing to me. Obviously it's impossible to even remember all the details ourselves, much less try to pin one change in a horse's behavior or appearance to any one variable.

The principle of parsimony applies here (or Occam's razor, if you like): the simplest explanation is likely the correct one. :)

[sweetpea]

If the horse was totally OK for 2 years on the new-and-improved diet, why was he getting a calming supplement?

This is why these things are so confusing to me. Obviously it's impossible to even remember all the details ourselves, much less try to pin one change in a horse's behavior or appearance to any one variable.

The principle of parsimony applies here (or Occam's razor, if you like): the simplest explanation is likely the correct one. :)

Hmm interesting reply--

As in my original post the diet he came off just didn't cut and keep up with the demands of training as a jumper or lower levels of basic dressage.

As the new diet took over it helped tremendously and but feeding a jumper is sooooo different than let's say a halter horse .

So my thinking is : the balance of calories where I need energy and nutrition .
The one thing I have felt safe about this last 2 years is the amount of concentrates has gone down. Always a good thing.

Why get a calm supplement??? Well for one the supplement is not to make my hottie a hunter but to keep him from overeacting to the stresses of showing and hauling everywhere.
Calming supplements or the one I linked have ingredients that help with the production of oxygen for the muscles and help reduce lactic acid . SO from that standpoint it works especially for this individual horse. I actually wish I could share a glass of merlot with him -- he deserves it!!

ANd Deltawave your right I won't remember everything --- That is why I do threads so people can help gather all angles -- Thanks for reminding me I am not 16 anymore!!!!!!

[deltawave]

Calming supplements or the one I linked have ingredients that help with the production of oxygen for the muscles and help reduce lactic acid .Ohhhh, if only the claims made by nutraceuticals were true. If only they HAD to be true. :sigh: But people buy them anyway, so who can blame the companies that make them for not putting their money where their mouths are? :mad:

This, of course, is another topic altogether. :)

You sound like you are going about things the right way. I agree that minimizing concentrates is usually the right way to go. :yes: But keep in the back of your mind the adage "if it sounds to good to be true, it probably is" when it comes to the claims made by nutraceuticals. Don't give them too much credit--sometimes horses just DO WELL and sometimes they don't, but nutrition, while obviously so very important, can't be credited or blamed for everything. ;)

FWIW, I have tried every calming supplement under the sun on my two hot potato mares over the years (they're both retired now) and never noticed a bit of difference in either one of them with any of them. Skepticism on my part? ENTIRELY possible. But that supports my theory that "response to supplements is often in the eye of the beholder" rather than refutes it. :)

[sweetpea]

Well It has been a few days and I did two things I eliminated the Boss and added the Magnesium. He seemed real good tonight and I will update tomorrow when I jump.
Now if this is it I will have to consider a fat source to keep up with the rigors of training and showing !!

[Altamont Sport Horses]

Are you still giving flax? 8 oz. which you put in your original post is a good deal of flax and I would think that would give him a good deal of fat but you could always add a little rice bran too.

[sweetpea]

Yes I am giving flax still --- Rice Bran HHHmmm forgot about this !!!

IS that what envision is made out of ---

[Altamont Sport Horses]

Yes I am giving flax still --- Rice Bran HHHmmm forgot about this !!!

IS that what envision is made out of ---

Don't know. I feed straight-up stabilized rice bran such as EquiJewel. http://www.producersricemill.com/products/equi.html It has the Calcium:Phosphorus ratio balanced but otherwise is pretty much just rice bran. If your horse needs more fat this might do the trick. I'd watch him though and see if he starts to lose weight before adding it. He might not need it since he is getting a good deal of flax.

[sweetpea]

Years ago I fed this one to a horse --- Thanks for the link. How much do you feed ??
I was feeding 4 cups of boss.

[sweetpea]

I actually was able to ride in the indoor with natural light only and the shadows did not freak him out!!! We also were doing half pass with no stress!!!!!!!

[BornToRide]

What changes did you make so far?

[sweetpea]

Left ot the Boss -- was 4 cups---and started him on the magnesium supplement by med vet.

[BornToRide]

Thanks - sounds like you are making good progress :yes:

[EqTrainer]

If he was Magnesium deficient, you would see a change like that.

I love MagOx, when they need it, it's like magic!

[Altamont Sport Horses]

Sounds good. I'll bet it is the magnesium he was missing. I just can't believe what a difference it has made in my horses in such a short period of time. I only considered it as something to try for really spooky horses. They are all a lot easier going now even if they didn't have issues. I'm making fast progress with the rescue mare who wouldn't let me touch her two days ago...today she got a vigorous massage using a curry comb from ears to withers, both sides. It makes me think that without enough magnesium the neurons in their brains are just firing continuously so that they can't concentrate...and don't know what stimuli to respond to and which to ignore. It must be a miserable feeling.

Oh, if you want to limit the Omega-6s (I just saw in one of your earlier posts that I had missed) then you'll want to watch the rice bran. It also has a good deal of Omega-6. In moderation it shouldn't be a problem. You never know, your horse might not need as many calories if his behavior changes with the magnesium or whatever is causing it. I've seen a lot less silliness around here this week so I know they aren't burning as many calories as they did before. They aren't being lazy but there is less useless activity. For example, the QUEEN gets mad, runs and screams when she isn't one of the first to get fed. oday there was no screaming which is why I forgot to feed her first. Yes, I decided to feed her last just to see what she would do since she was handling it so well. She was pretty quiet waiting, would walk in a little circle occasionally but no running/bucking/squealing to show her displeasure at the injustice of having the lowly peasants fed before her.

[sweetpea]

You see between the barn switch and the terrible weather where they have been kept in a no turn a couple of times .I have lowered the Pro Ad Balancer-- which does have mag in it but I don't give enough . Now I give a 1 1/2 ponds with 2 pounds oats, flax and mag--- Sweet Boy is coming HOME!!!!!! Thanks about the rice bran -- so now my question is what fat besides ooil is a 3???? Isn't envision or Ultimate finish???? I am going to stay away from the 6's with this guy.

[foursocks]

I'm glad things seem to be working out for you- honestly, though, you are probably better off asking detailed feed questions of an equine nutritionist than random people on a bb.

My trainer consults with one who helped him put together his very simple, effective program and he says she's been invaluable. I think, although I may be wrong, that rural extension services in your area would also be able to help you- if not with grain questions directly, than with hay/soil nutrient information, and perhaps they can point you in the right direction for your other questions. :)

[sweetpea]

[QUOTE=foursocks;3755415]I'm glad things seem to be working out for you- honestly, though, you are probably better off asking detailed feed questions of an equine nutritionist than random people on a bb.

I agree and that is the first person I called -
Actully I spoke with two nutritionists. One from Progressive and the other from Tribute feeds.

But I went here for a broader base of opinion and usuage. Especially withthe use of boss.

In the end we do what we do -- but I have had more sucess with the success and failures everyone is so gracious to share on this board. Where else can you get so many varied experiences --- certainly not in my little area!! ANd far as my extension office - Not a chance and less I want to learn about Corn!!

[deltawave]

Yes, an equine nutritionist might be a good resource, but most of them are pretty solidly pitching one product or another, so there's often a whale of a lot of bias. Even on this BB there are people who sell or market their own feed products/supplements or are in on a MLM plan with them and, strangely enough, seem to recommend them all very highly. :lol:

[Altamont Sport Horses]

You see between the barn switch and the terrible weather where they have been kept in a no turn a couple of times .I have lowered the Pro Ad Balancer-- which does have mag in it but I don't give enough . Now I give a 1 1/2 ponds with 2 pounds oats, flax and mag--- Sweet Boy is coming HOME!!!!!! Thanks about the rice bran -- so now my question is what fat besides ooil is a 3???? Isn't envision or Ultimate finish???? I am going to stay away from the 6's with this guy.

Omega 6's are ok in moderation. You are giving a lot of Omega 3's in the flax seed and there are some Omega 6's in there as well but not much.

I can't remember, did you say he can or can't eat alfalfa? If he can eat alfalfa some of that added in the form of hay or pellets should help him gain and/or maintain. For example, I transitioned one of my horses from 3 lbs. of a pelleted feed to alfalfa pellets of the same volume (but alfalfa is more dense and therefore weighs a bit more for the same volume...about 3.25lb). He started to gain weight so I backed him down to half that amount so now he is getting only about 1.5lb of alfalfa pellets and there has been no negative effect on his temperment. In fact he has been quieter without the extra NSC. It doesn't take much. If your horse already eats alfalfa just bump him up a little if and when he needs it. And again, sorry if you already mentioned if he can or can't eat alfalfa.

Sometimes the oats can be counter productive. They have the calories you want to give for weight gain or maintenance but make them more active than necessary so then they just burn it off. Just something to think about.

Often you can get better results out of the same amount of feed your horse is already getting if you just break it up into more meals (ie. more meals but smaller in quantity per meal). This might be an option for you. I will throw a little alfalfa at night (4-6 hours after his evening meal) to a horse that needs to gain some weight. I've done this with beet pulp as well. Depending on the horse I might throw in some soaked alfalfa cubes and/or rice bran to make them more interested. We don't feed a lot of beet pulp around here and some of the horses won't eat it unless it has something yummier in it.

My horses have been so quiet here during this last week that I really think I'm going to have to reduce their feed so they don't get fat. I'd recommend waiting on adding more fat until you are sure your horse needs it now that he is on the magnesium.

[sweetpea]

For now I am going to stick with the 1 1/2 pounds GB and the 2 lbs Oats & flax.
But as I go I forsee him going toa fat supplement liek Envision and may be lessening the Oats. I won't know for a little and I wanto give the trail long enough.
I did just talk with the nutritionist from Tribute --- Wow smart man -- used to be with Buckeye-- Anyways we talked about Protein , fats and so forth.

He brought up a good point--
He said with my original diet I could have had to much protein which in turn excess protein turns to carbohydrates and sugars. Very interesting. We also discussed alot of issues and the importance of the type of energy needed. Not just the horse maintains his weight.
His major advice was constant good fiber for the horse.
WHich is easy -- My horse Loves Hay & beet pulp!!!
Thank You soooooo much for all of your imput .