Gelding that paces at night non-stop...

[Samotis]

I have a 19 year old TB gelding that won't stop pacing at night. He does it almost every night and it has basically crippled him.

I have had the vet check him out, take his blood, you name it, he has had it. He is fine during the day and he acts normal and happy and eats everything put in front of him.

He has always paced, but since he has got older it has been a lot worse. He does have slight narcolepsy, so I am not sure if that is making him pace?

Any ideas?

I am not sure what else I can do, but he ruptured his ddft in a pasture accident and the hole where fluid is leaking through will not heal because he won't stop pacing. I can't put him on stall rest and he is retired, but this just can't go on!

The more he paces the more sore he gets and it is just breaking my heart!

I thought about sedating him at night, but I don't know if that will work!

[bludejavu]

I know this is not what you want to hear, but would it be kinder to him to euthanize him? There are tons of unanswered questions such as, does he have a turnout buddy, does he have ulcer problems, is he eating too much grain, would he rather be inside or outside, etc., but it all boils down to the fact that if you can't make him relax enough to stop the pacing, is euthanizing the best alternative.

I once had a very nervous pacey gelding who wouldn't even slow down to eat. He was much younger than your horse though and he learned to wear a set of hobbles which worked like a tranquilizer for him. I'm not suggesting this for your gelding though because at 19, he could really hurt himself learning how to wear hobbles, plus he probably needs to move around more than he could if he was hobbled.

The one thing I noticed about my gelding was that the more weight he paced off, the more nervous he became. Once I figured out how to control his anxiety with hobbles, he started gaining weight, the anxiety slowly went away and finally he was at optimum weight and no longer needed hobbling except occasionally.

[Samotis]

He doesn't have ulcers and he eats hay and pasture pretty much all day. He gets senior and beet pulp twice a day just to keep weight on him.

If he was miserable and off his feed of course I would think about putting him down, but he isn't miserable. He is happy as a clam during the day and in the pasture.

I am just not sure what he is so upset about at night. He has been in many different types of stalls and it doesn't seem to make a difference.

[Bayou Roux]

What are his companion options? Is he turned out in the daytime near a horse he is separated from at night? I know the Rouxster's tendency to pace has diminished quite a bit now that she's stalled next to a gelding she likes very much. He's had a very calming influence on her.

Would a small-paddock run-in option be available or make a difference?

I'm sorry you're struggling with this. It's very upsetting to watch them be upset like this, and must be worse when he's got an injury he's making worse.

[crosscreeksh]

One of my best horses will slowly walk the stall when he's in at night. He's done it for years - I believe it to be a by-product of being raised outside 24/7. Sometimes horses DO have to be stabled! I put him in his stall loose while he eats and settles in for the night, but when we do the evening check and pick up stalls we snap him on a rope which allows him to reach his hay, feed tub, water bucket and lie down safely. He wears a breakable neck strap instead of hooking to his halter and causing rubs. Note: He has never broken the rope or gotten tangled. The minute we snap him to the rope, he immediately settles down and eats his hay. Constant stall walking does lead to weight loss and sometimes lameness....being "stopped" removes the neccessity to pace and the horse is happier and healthier. PS - my horse is 16 years old and we've had to do this since he was 5! I think this is a good alternative to euthanasia!

[bludejavu]

crosscreek - it sounds like your tieing idea has an effect similar to what hobbling does for my horses. My husband had an Arabian who stall walked at night to the point of taking weight off. We were boarding at the time and there was no shelter or wind breaks in the pastures so at night he had to come in (at least in the winter). Hobbles helped him tremendously and in fact, solved the whole problem.

Samotis - I think crosscreek's suggestion would be a great one to try.

[crosscreeksh]

Thanks blu... We've found over the years that the walking is an obscession that most horses are glad to be relieved of!! I've read that it releases phaermones similar to cribbing. My husband trained TB race horses for over 40 years and we had several during that time who benefitted from being tied. It seems to be comforting - not punishment to them. We always use breakable ties and make sure the horse can reach everything he needs. My horse started this winter loose at night, but when the daily turn outs went from 12 hours a day to 9 he got more mobile (I refer to his habit as "strolling" - it's just a slow forward movement). Even having best friends where he could see them - we have bars on the fronts of our stalls and half door screens - kept him quiet for a while, but now he's on the move again. Another note...a stall walker will often disturb the horses around him, too.

[irishcas]

One of my best horses will slowly walk the stall when he's in at night. He's done it for years - I believe it to be a by-product of being raised outside 24/7. Sometimes horses DO have to be stabled! I put him in his stall loose while he eats and settles in for the night, but when we do the evening check and pick up stalls we snap him on a rope which allows him to reach his hay, feed tub, water bucket and lie down safely. He wears a breakable neck strap instead of hooking to his halter and causing rubs. Note: He has never broken the rope or gotten tangled. The minute we snap him to the rope, he immediately settles down and eats his hay. Constant stall walking does lead to weight loss and sometimes lameness....being "stopped" removes the neccessity to pace and the horse is happier and healthier. PS - my horse is 16 years old and we've had to do this since he was 5! I think this is a good alternative to euthanasia!

Maybe I'm tired and reading this wrong... but are you saying keeping a horse OUTSIDE 24/7 is bad and keeping a horse raised that way in a stall is okay?

I must be reading this wrong, maybe you have no choice but to keep the horse in a stall and tied..... Ugh!

[irishcas]

it's just a slow forward movement

Could this possibly be related to a behavior known to the Equine as "grazing" :eek: Ya know, what they evolved to do, while foraging for food :)

[sublimequine]

Could this possibly be related to a behavior known to the Equine as "grazing" :eek: Ya know, what they evolved to do, while foraging for food :)

Not everyone has the luxury of 24/7 turnout. Quit being a bully.

[cherish the moment 07]

I'm very sorry that that this is so upsetting for you. I have a 21 year old mare that paces. She does this whenever she gets nervous or anxious about anything. It's just a habit and she's never hurt herself doing it so I'm not concerned. But of course your situation is more dire since your horse is hurt. I wish I had some suggestions for you. I hope everything turns out ok :)

[irishcas]

Not everyone has the luxury of 24/7 turnout. Quit being a bully.

How am I being a bully?

My husband trained TB race horses for over 40 years

Race tracks = no thought of putting horses out 24/7.. here in NY anyway.

Keeping a young horse locked in a stall and feeding it a high sugar diet = pacing. Then stating that it is a fault of 24/7 turnout while being raised... Uh Helloooooo. I can question that without you ACCUSING me of being a Bully.

[fourmares]

Maybe your horse is afraid of the dark, or doesn't see well in the dark. Have you tryed giving him a light? Maybe even a smaller paddock with a light.

[joiedevie99]

I second the tying suggestion. I knew one who was a nervous weaver/walker in the stall and the second you clipped a long lead to his break-away halter he was like a different horse. He would breath a sigh of relief and immediately fall asleep since he was so tired from keeping watch over his stall. Can't hurt to give it a try for a few nights.

[Samotis]

Where do I start. He did best when I was at my old show barn. He would get out for 4 hours in a small paddock and then was in a small inside stall. I know, it sounds terrible, but that is when he paced the least.

Now I no longer work there and the barn has moved so he is at a retirement home right next to where my weanling is. It is a great place and they take great care of him. He has a huge outside mare motel pen next to a 33 year old horse that he gets turned out with. He freaks if the other horse leaves, so they pretty much are always next to each other. We have tried other horse combos, leaving him in a inside stall at night, you name it, he always paces.

I suppose I could tie him. It just worries me with his occasional narcolepsy. His knees don't lock sometimes when he relaxes to go to sleep. I almost wonder if that is why he paces.

He is my once in a lifetime horse and it is hard for me to see him worry like that.

He hates any kind of change and even when we put them back in the stalls from turnout, if Farley is still out he freaks until we bring him back in. (which we always do right after we put him away!)

He has lost weight which we just added senior to his diet, but I wish the pacing would just stop!

His stall has no poop in the morning because he just walks it all over the stall. He does only walk back and forth, but it is so bad for his joints pivoting like that constantly and really bad for his DDFT injury that has been a nightmare to fix. Hence the retirement.:(

I wonder if he is just getting crazy in his old age, or has a tumor or something!

[bludejavu]

He's suffering separation anxiety. We've had several broodmares suffer from that.

There is something you could try. It's called Reserpine and it works for some, not others. If it works, it can last as long as 30 days. It's an injection, not very expensive, and although some horses apparently experience strange side effects, I've used it on a couple of herd bound horses that would stress to the point of colic upon separation and have had excellent results with it.

Another avenue is to remove your horse from the company of any other horses completely so that he becomes less dependent on them. I have seen this work three times in the past for horses that were really dependent on another horse. However, since your horse is hurt, you probably need something that will work quick and I still think the tie method might work if your horse ties well.

After owning several neurotic horses in the past, I feel your frustration. Turn out isn't always the solution.

[UNCeventer]

We've got one that paces. He either cribs... or when the collar is on, he paces. He paces along the fenceline to the point of digging a trench- no joke! All the water from the recent rains have gathered in there. He paces with a friend or without (a little more without). He has constant access to hay and even when he is in a stall, even while eating his grain, he walks circles, spilling the grain all over the stall. Recently, it has gotten to the point where he has lost weight. He is tucked up in the flank area.

We had to take his friend away during the rains because he shreds his companion's blanket to shreds- so we opted to take the friend into another field nextdoor to him.

For those of you that tie your horses in the stalls, can you describe to me exactly where you tie them and tell me more about the neck collar?

[little sue]

I am riding a 26 year old horse who has recently gone blind. He would spin in his stall during a rain storm even when sighted. The spinning got worse as his sight problems progressed. Tried Quitex,etc,even had to tranq him once. He would work himself into a drenching sweat and be sore the next day. Someone suggested Rescue Remedy. I was very skeptical. IT WORKED!! I have also gotten the Bach essence , Rock Rose for trauma and fear. We give those to him 4-5 drops on his flax treats every 10 minutes til he settles,which is usually within a 1/2 hour. I also give him some before he goes to sleep if I think a storm is coming. He is not so worked up the next AM. Good luck, it's awful to watch them go round and round.

[Percheron X]

Some horses stall walk because they don't like to be in, and they may do better if they are turned out 24/7.

[Bayou Roux]

Tying, when done properly, is quite a humane option for a horse this upset. Another thing to think about the tying is that it may not be a forever thing. Some horses, having broken the obsessive cycle, can go back to being free in their stalls after a few days/weeks of tying.

I would, though, really look at the vetting. Scope for ulcers, do the vision test-- I know they have emotional issues (Believe me, I know! ;) ) but we always want to make sure the signs they show are not symptoms of pain or physical discomfort.

[Bluey]

Have you tried leaving a light on and using an unbreakable mirror in his stall?
Some say it worked to stop their horse's weaving.

In many stables in Europe we had a section with tie stalls, where horses were tied to a manger and had some 4' to 6' width to move around a little and could lay down fine.
They were exercised many hours a day, but rather than being put back in a stall, they were tied in there.
Worked great for nervous horses to stay there when not in use, or horses that were used for lessons during the day and later were turned out in a box stall at night.
If your horse still won't be still tied in his stall, he could stay in a tie stall at night and be turned out in the daytime, when he doesn't has a problem.

Some tie stalls were elaborate, with solid sides, others just a log tied to the manger and hanging from the ceiling with a rope or just laying on the ground on the other end, several horses living happily in those tie stalls a row.

[lindasp62]

Now I no longer work there and the barn has moved so he is at a retirement home right next to where my weanling is. It is a great place and they take great care of him. He has a huge outside mare motel pen next to a 33 year old horse that he gets turned out with. He freaks if the other horse leaves, so they pretty much are always next to each other. We have tried other horse combos, leaving him in a inside stall at night, you name it, he always paces.!

Ruling out anything physically medical, I think one is that he is missing his turnout buddy. Is there anyway his turnout buddy can be stabled next to him at night? I am sure this will help. If not, how about a light? Also, maybe a radio playing?

I don't like the tieing idea...especially with his narcolepsy. Also, in his age, he needs to move around to keep his joints lubricated (yes, but not "pacing!), and also it is best to be able for the head to be down for sinus drainage, etc.

I did have a mare once, a "Nervous Nelly", that sometimes she was okay, then it seemed that if the wind would blow the wrong way, she'd get in a frazz, tear around her stall, etc. Never knew what set her off half the time, but knowing her general nervous nature, and her age (she was older, too), I just had to give her more confidence with turnout schedules, stabling buddies, etc. (she had nothing physically wrong) But, that was not before I tried everything...even one of those brow magnets! It didn't work a lick! When I called the manufacturer, they said that my horse was the first case that it didn't help even a little bit!:(

[subk]

I had a stall walker who responded very well to a boarding situation that had grills between all the stalls. He was put in a stall that he could touch noses with three horses. When he was injured we added a minature donkey in his stall when the other horses were turned out.

One thing I read about after he was sold was a suggestion of an unbreakable mirror in his stall so that he could have a "friend" with him when ever he looked. Since he was so concerned about other horses I think it would have been worth a try for him.

[Brydelle Farm]

Was the move to a new barn recent? Is this when the behavior worsened? What changes at in the barn at night?

How about a goat with him in the stall? A radio and a soft light is another option.

I am not against tying, as others have posted, I have seen it be very effective. I never left a horse tied w/o observation but for short periods when stirred up, it would relax and settle them and then they would go about their regular business. But the narcolepsy worries me and perhaps it is worsening and he knows it, and is what makes him more restless.

Jingles for both of you!

[Foxtrot's]

Interesting suggestons - nothing more to add. There is a slow long lasting drug (maybe it's Reserpine?), but those darned TB's just won't give it up once they get into the habit.
Horse psychology - we still have so much to learn how to read them, treat them. Poor old guy.

[fourmares]

I wonder if Rescue Sleep would help him? You can get it at Walgreens or TNC.

[Samotis]

I have treated for ulcers, no change. He gets turned out with the same horse that he sleeps next to so that is not why he is pacing.

I would tie him if he didn't have narcolepsy. I haven't ever seen him fall down, but he would fall to his knees when he was being braided at night. I had to warn the braiders to scream his name if his head started to go down. Never actually fell, but I am sure he has at night.

He does on rare occasions not pace at all, but mostly in the morning there is no poop to be seen. I was going to maybe try ear plugs or cotton in his ears at night. Maybe it is a noise?

He has moved with me when I leave places. He has only ever moved 3 places in the last 12 years. He always paces. Some places worse then others. I had him in Cottonwood at my friends and he was frantic, so he had to move back with me in Scottsdale. (but he was there 4 years ago and was fine.)

He is fine during the day and is out all day. He hates to be out at night and will just run. He has got worse with age, so it must be some kind of mental issue that is getting worse.

I really have tried everything! He has had reserpine for an injury and it didn't help. No other sleep aid really works except Ace and only for a short period of time, altough I haven't tried the granules.

I just hate to drug him.:( He is fine during the day like I said, so it is hard for me to think that he is that un happy. It is really just a nervous thing or fear of something.

My friend gave me a number to a pet physcic, so I am going to try that. Why not? Tried everything else!

[Simkie]

What about a mirror? I've read that it can be very helpful for weavers. Maybe it would help your horse? Sounds like you've tried just about everything else--might be worth a shot. There's some company selling unbreakable horse mirrors...let's see...Here's a UK source (http://www.stable-mirrors.co.uk/)...can't seem to find a US source. Perhaps someone else will post the US source.

[Samotis]

its funny because my friends son was upset about it and was trying to come up with a solution.

He wanted to make a life size poster board of Farley and put them around his stall!!:lol:

(Farley is his partner in crime. A 33 year old retired cutting horse that is the sweetest horse you will ever meet and he has to put up with my nut-job gelding!)

[LarkspurCO]

Just a few thoughts:

Reducing sugar/carbs and adding magnesium might be worth considering. II would take a close look at this diet and the sugar/carb levels in the senior feed. Some are high NSC. Is this Purina senior feed? If so you might try him on Ultium and see if it makes a difference.

I have a neurotic, hard-keeping TB that is prone to pacing, has narcolepsy (falls down), is very insecure in general -- very sensitive to changes in diet, needy and just very psychologically challenged in general. For two years I've tried all sorts of sleep aids and feeds, tweaking this or that. I put mirrors in his stall, re-arranged the neighbor horses, treated him for ulcers. He would improve but nothing really seemed to last.

He's been very "stable" for awhile now, and I attribute this to (1) diet and (2) magnesium.

I feed a low-starch grain with plenty of protein (Progressive Premium Performance pellet + Progressive grass RB), ground flax, rice bran, alfalfa pellets and non-molasses beet pulp. Free choice grass hay. My brief experiment with adding a pound or two oats was a failure. He was pacing and hyper all night and running gallop sets in the pasture all day.

I feed magnesium proteinate (su-per Mag Calm) 2 oz per day. This has helped a LOT. He now lies down to sleep again regularly.

I had tried magnesium in the past without success, but now that I have the rest of the diet balanced out it really has helped. Magnesium is one of the best things for relaxation and sleep (works great for me and my insomniac freinds), but it may not help if the diet has the blood sugars are all bumfuzzled.

[Simkie]

Ah-HA. HERE (http://www.silktree.com/p25.html) we go.

Looks like Dover (http://www.doversaddlery.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_X1-2726) carries a teeny one, too.

Magnesium is one of the best things for relaxation and sleep (works great for me and my insomniac freinds)...

I would *love* to hear more about this. I've supplemented magnesium before in my diet, and I did not notice that it was any easier to sleep, but perhaps I didn't take enough, or the right type, or at the right time of day...

[Thomas_1]

Keep him turned out during the night too if that keeps him calmer.

[dressage fan]

I know how you feel. I have a 20 year old gelding that paces terribly and it is very disturbing to watch. You say that you've treated for Ulcers but have you been really agressive about it? I did treat for ulcers but it takes a little bit of time to work. After a month of ulcerguard, and a little bit alfalfa every day his ulcers are gone and he has stopped pacing. He's been really calm and quiet for a few months now. He's off ulcerguard now, but I have to give it to him for if anything changes. I avoid bute at all costs - one dose and he starts pacing like crazy. A consistent barn routine helps as well. Hope it helps...:)

[LarkspurCO]

Ah-HA. HERE (http://www.silktree.com/p25.html) we go.

Looks like Dover (http://www.doversaddlery.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_X1-2726) carries a teeny one, too.



I would *love* to hear more about this. I've supplemented magnesium before in my diet, and I did not notice that it was any easier to sleep, but perhaps I didn't take enough, or the right type, or at the right time of day...

Me too, and I have found the one that really works. You will want to give this a try:
Ionic Fizz Magnesium Plus
http://www.pureessencelabs.com/ionic_magnesium_fizz.php

It's available at Vitamin Cottage (expensive but worth it). Do not take it until ready for bed:;) and be prepared to sleep like a rock.

I found another product that works but not quite as well as the Fizz. It's magnesium aspartate but I don't remember the brand. I'll look at the bottle and PM you.

[Jasmine]

I have a mare that neurotically paces/weaves in her stall.

She weaves with a mirror. She weaves with access to her friends (I ripped out half a wall so she could touch her buddy). She weaves with free choice hay. Heck, she weaves IN BETWEEN bites of grain!

I keep her outside 24/7. Even in a small paddock (roughly twice the size of her stall) with no buddies, she does not weave. The mare simply hates to be in a stall.

[LarkspurCO]

Re magnesium and horses, one of the reasons I started Mr. Neurotic back was a kidney crisis (colic followed by UTI). My theory is that it was triggered by him passing a stone. The ultrasound didn't find any kidney or bladder stones, but he had lots of crystals and his blood was high in calcium both times it was checked.

Everything around here is very high in calcium -- soil, hay, water. I am supplementing all my horses with Mag-Calm and they're all doing great. The laminitic mare, too.

I've done a lot of research on magnesium, but the Pure Essence Labs site sums it up well:

"Magnesium is the world's most overlooked nutrient. Without it, calcium cannot be efficiently deposited to bone tissues. When calcium does not reach the bones, it can end up as arterial plaque, bone spurs, kidney stones, etc. "

[joiedevie99]

If it were me, I wouldn't worry about tying with narcolepsy. You want to tie long enough that the horse can lie down anyway- and unplanned lying down doesn't really take any more rope. Just make sure you use a breakaway halter, a round cotton lead, and tie to a single loop of twine as a precaution. Honestly, with the one I knew, I bet you could have left the lead looped through a ring, totally untied, and it would have had the same effect. He was so relieved that he slept the whole time he was tied. Obviously, don't leave the horse tied unattended until you have observed the reaction.

[Bluehorsesjp]

I'm going to support the tying idea.
It might just give him the boundries so he can sleep and rest.

I can't remember the name of the book that was written by the autistic woman who has done so much for animal handling. ok it is called Animals in Translation by Temple Gaurdin http://www.amazon.com/Animals-Translation-Mysteries-Autism-Behavior/dp/0156031442.
My trainer once heard her speak and she mentioned that as an autistic sometimes she wanted to put her "head in a vice", and has developed a " hug machine" to help handle livestock. Her premise is that animals like/need the closeness touching there bodies to calm down. (And I could be butchering this, but this is how I understand it.)
I have a horse who is a bit of a spaz in his turnout, in his stall and in the trailer. We joke that he is a bit autistic. He does best shipping with the divider closed in my slate load. Sometimes he does best when his stall door is closed, or he is tied. For him "being in the box" or having his "head in a vice" , having boundries helps.

You might want to try the tying situation. While we all think sweeping vistas and 24/7 turnout is best we need to remember that horses are individuals and some need to have a boundry to calm them .

[SkipHiLad4me]

How frustrating :( I may have missed it in your posts somewhere but is it possible to just leave him turned out? My horse has suffered two DDFT injuries in recent years and I could NOT keep him in the stall while he healed. He paced relentlessly, dropped weight, and would work himself up into a sweat. Obviously not good for the injured tendon either.

He was far more relaxed in the pasture and did much less damage to himself there than he was doing in the stall.

Good luck with him. I know it has to be tough.

[pines4equines]

CAn I say something here that I've noticed about our horses? We have one horse who was content in the stall down the aisle. He is a cribber but pretty content. We recently moved him and in addition to the cribbing, he has now started to weave. I'm actually going to switch him back? I wonder if you could try musical stalls and see if he just doesn't like where he is...I will let you know what happens with our gelding when we move him back.

[Foxtrot's]

Some racehorse people give their animals a pet - like a goat?

[Karma]

I agree with those that recommend tying, as the rope is meant to allow lying down anyway. If not I would try a straight stall if he must be in at night.

[Foxtrot's]

He would be free to lie down and also safe if his tie went from his halter, through a ring on the wall and down to a weight of some kind. There is a picture in the Pony Club Manual.
Then there is never a loop that he can get a leg over, but he has freedom to reach water and hay.

[AngelainTexas]

Keep him turned out during the night too if that keeps him calmer.

She has already said a couple of times now that he does worse when he is turned out at night.

[twofatponies]

I'm sorry about your horse, but also really curious to know what solves this, if you do find a solution. Is there a veterinary equivalent of the drugs they use for anxiety in humans, like xanax? or something used for OCD in humans? The kind of thing that calms the obsessiveness/anxiety but is not a tranquilizer and wouldn't result in him being "drugged" or clumsy? I don't know if the narcolepsy would be significant in choosing that kind of medication...

The poster who mentioned Temple Grandin was right - she talked about using a sort of "mattress sandwich" to help her sleep, because it felt like a soothing restraint, and that gave her the idea of making a similar device for handling cattle when they needed handling that usually stressed them.

There was a horse at a barn I boarded at who was so needy for physical contact they hung a jolly ball in his stall, where he could stand and it would just rest against his hip, the way a buddy horse might rest his nose against a friend.

I hope you figure something out.

[Samotis]

I went an saw him today. He was actually not as lame. Last week he was limping at the walk. Today he was ok. It was about 4 pm and he was walking around the stall.

It just seems like a habit. We have moved him around to other stalls. She also has a indoor barn. Same thing, still paced at night.

The BO doesn't feel comfortable tying him only because she doesn't go out there from 8 pm to 6 am. She is nervous about it.

I can try the magnesium. We did just put him on Triple Crown senior which has beet pulp, but also has molasses in it. He doesn't have ulcers. He has been scoped before and no medicine ever helps. When he paces he doesn't do it in a frantic way, its almost like he just walks so he won't go to sleep. :confused:

I was thinking about buying some fluffy shavings and putting them at the end of the stall where he doesn't pace to see if he maybe just want a fluffy place to sleep. I also thought of putting cotton in his ears, in case noises bother him.

Thanks for all the suggestions I really appreciate it.

Food wise he gets 4 pounds of TC senior and 2 pounds of alfalfa blend pellets a day as well as half alfalfa half bermuda for breakfast and dinner. grass hay and pasture for lunch. After adding the TC, he hasn't really paced more, so not sure the molasses makes a difference.

I have him on cosequin, but no magnesium supplement. I really am on a budget, so while I want to help him, I just can't afford the $38 a bag for progressive. (the cosequin was a gift;)) I know it is a great product I have my weanling on the Pro Ad and love it. It is just that he is retired and already having so much expensive care!

If he was a normal retiree I would be spending $400 less a month for him!!

I love him to death and he will always be with me, but man, he is going to be the death of me!

[stuge]

Give the TC Senior a little more time. While it does have molasses in it, it is very low in NSCs. I switched my horse from Purina Strategy to Progressive's sweet feed to Progressive's diet balancer and envision to TC Complete and my horse has made a HUGE difference (this was over a 4 1/2 year time span). He used to pace the stall (so bad he got kicked off stall board at one barn), while not as bad as your horse, and you couldn't leave him alone in the paddock even if he could see another horse. Now, his stall is SO neat and clean and he will stay in the paddock by himself for a short while while the other horse is being ridden. He still has his tendencies, like at feeding time he has to be the first in, but wow what a difference! Now I can't say that it was the feed change that impacted my horse but if it is going to help, it can take a month or so.

I think the tying is a great idea and there should be a way to make it safe so that if there is an emergency, he can easily get free and a way that will make the BO comfortable.

[Bayou Roux]

If he was a normal retiree I would be spending $400 less a month for him!!



No such thing. :)

I've missed a few posts, so maybe someone suggested this, but I've had the Rouxster on Thia-Cal for a couple of years now, and I think it's really made a difference in her-- she's generally calmer, less anxious, and less prone to flying into fits of nervous habit-- you can see her start to weave, then think about it, and say, meh, it's not that bad, I don't need to weave.
I know a lot of that is also her settling in to her routine, knowing and liking her stable mates, but I don't imagine the Thia-Cal is hurting. And it's not terribly expensive. Dover carries gallon jugs of it...

Good luck-- I am glad to hear he's a bit better today!

[Samotis]

See, it is weird because he doesn't weave or do anything frantic. He just walks and walks and walks. There is no reason to it! He doesn't look nervous, I really think it is because he doesn't want to fall asleep. I am going to get him some shavings for Christmas and see if that helps.

He has had those nasty wood grindings for so long, I wouldn't want to lay down in those. The bag shavings are so expensive that no barn uses them anymore!

I will try it out. Maybe he just wants a soft place to sleep!

[FindersKeepers]

Some pace because they feel claustraphobic. A girl I grew u with had a TB that paced incessantly...turned out he just needed a bigger stall. He was nervous about lying down without having lots of room. But it sounds like your boy has the reverse... he needs close quarters to sleep.

My mare is like that. She has to have a good 8-10 hours a day that she is stall bound to get her normal sleep. She will nap in the field, but needs her stall time to zonk out.

I wouldn't tie him. I understand the logic... but if he has a reason other than just unconsciously going through the motions, that could stress him out more than he already is.

I would try giving him something like Quietex for a few nights, and see if that lessens his anxiety some and helps him sleep. Another option you can try, that I have seen work, is get him a pet. A little goat or a mini... and keep them in a stall together. It won't work if you have standard 12x12, but if you are able to work out a larger stall for the 2 of them... sometimes that will help. Sometimes it can be as easy as leaving a jolly ball rolling around on the floor because it gets in the way...

I would think, based on your description, that it's just a bad habit... and he's not getting the sleep he needs, so that's just exacerbating the problem. You need to find a way to throw a monkey wrench in the works, disrupt his pattern, and then he might be able to work out a new way to get his OCD out.

[MaresNest]

He is happy as a clam during the day and in the pasture.

Can he stay out at night?

[BornToRide]

Food wise he gets 4 pounds of TC senior and 2 pounds of alfalfa blend pellets a day as well as half alfalfa half bermuda for breakfast and dinner. grass hay and pasture for lunch. After adding the TC, he hasn't really paced more, so not sure the molasses makes a difference.

This may be the reason right here why he paces so much - too much sugar in the diet! I would put him on all you can eat grass hay only diet for a while with some alfalfa or hay pellets as a carrier for a low NSC vitamin supplement like Equipride. You should see a change in only a couple of weeks.

You could also try just removing the grain first, but it may not be enough. It could be that the alfalfa is also too much for what he can tolerate.

Always start at the basics first before considering other possibilities (unless the horse is in obvious health distress) and read this:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080815170625.htm

and this: http://www.balancedstep.com/diet.htm

[Samotis]

He paced before he was put on the triple crown senior and alfalfa. A few months ago he was only getting bermuda a little pellets and a little alfalfa. He paced the exact same amount. the food isn't it. It is some mental thing with him.

I had to up his food because he looked like an Ethiopian child.

We had to move his water bucket to the back of his stall because he paces in the front and he kept running into it, eventually cracking it!

I have thought about putting a tire in the front of his stall. He would probably just go around it.

He is not frantic when he walks. It is almost like it is his job. Its like he has to do it. :(

I will look into some calming supplements. Quietex does not work. Maybe mag calm I can try.

[BornToRide]

Then he needs more turnout, more like 24/7. Or I would provide him with several small meshed haybags that will slow down the eating of the hay. Might keep him busier longer and distract him enough.

When you say little pellets, how much and what exactly did he get? And I would also add some magnesium to his diet.

[cosmos mom]

Actually, I haven't found one post where she said that they had tried keeping him outside at night. Did I miss it?

She has already said a couple of times now that he does worse when he is turned out at night.

If indeed it has not been tried, I too, would consider 24/7 turnout with a buddy for him if it is at all possible. Just to keep his and your own sanity. I really hope you can figure it out for him- Jingles!

[Samotis]

She would just give him a small coffee can of pellets in the morning.

He refuses to go out all day. That is why I am in this situation. I have plenty of places that are cheaper that would put him out all day, but he hates that and runs. So now he is at the plaza of barns so he can be babied. :(

We were lucky to get him to stay out for 3 hours at a time let alone all day. Sometimes he will stay out for 6 hours, but that is tops for him. He has always been stabled and a show horse and he is not comfortable with all day turnout. I have tried.

[BornToRide]

Poor guy - I agree, perhaps a buddy would help!

Best wishes!!

[bludejavu]

I remembered something from quite awhile back in my past when I used to board at an all breed barn - maybe this is something you can try if the barn owner is okay with it. A boarder had a Quarter Horse mare who was rather high strung. She was a stall walker by nature and would kill bedding, stomp manure into the ground, etc. Someone told her owner to hang plastic milk/water jugs from the ceiling at two to three foot intervals all around the stall and hang them at head height or a little lower (head height for the horse). She did it and filled the jugs about half full of water. What it did was make it where she would run into the jugs no matter where she tried to pace in the stall. She could stand in the center of the stall and not hit anything but the minute she tried pacing back and forth, it annoyed her enough to discourage her. It's been about 25 years since I saw this but I am pretty sure it worked for her horse. Of course, that wont help in turn out, but might make it possible to keep him quiet in a stall.

[doublebridle]

1) Have had a couple who had very sensitive hearing, could hear the electric fence charger shorting out from a long distance. Would pace and fret til I figured it out. Not necessarily whats happening with your guy but had to mention it.

2) Drugs. Consider it. Really. You'll do him a favor by giving him some acepromazine nightly for a week or two, then taper the dosage off gradually. You can give it very easily in tablet form, just dissolve in a little water and pour over a handful of grain or syringe into mouth. 8 or 10 tabs will make him nicely drowzy and will last for 6-7 hours. He'll have a chance to realize the stall is not such a bad place to be, and he'll get some much needed rest. Side effects are minimal compared to the stress he is putting himself and you and the barn owner through.

3) Get him a mini pony. Of course this would be expensive and not all barn owners are willing.

4)Another vote for "Tie him". At least for an hour or two when he first comes in.

Best of luck to you.

[Altamont Sport Horses]

You said he is next to his buddy but can he actually see his buddy without effort? Mine are not content to look through cracks in the wall or hang the head over the top of the stall door in order to catch a glimpse. They want to see their friend easily.

Also, I'm wondering about his vision. I have a night blind horse that walks in her stall more when the lighting is insufficient. If the light is less than what you could easily read a book by she sees absolutely nothing and it makes her anxious. Cataracts could make it very hard to see in low light regardless of being indoors or out.

I would definitely try the magnesium. I've been feeding a new supplement with more magnesium in it among other things and the difference is outstanding. I wasn't feeding the supplement for the magnesium, just to round out the diet a bit and test palatability before buying more. After less than 4 days on this I'm surprised by the change in behavior in 2 horses and another one that had grain eliminated from his diet as well. Here is one example. Ellie is a rescue Percheron mare that made her way to a embryo recipient herd and is now carrying one of my mare's embryos. I wasn't too pleased to learn that Ellie can't be touched or handled normally but it was too late by then. You must catch her with feed and she wears a halter continuously so you can sneak a lead line on her. I've never been able to touch her neck, chest, etc. She will touch my hand for a treat but turns away quickly and will never, ever allow me to touch her face or head. Today she comes up to me while I am throwing hay and waits like she wants attention. OK. I reach out and touch her chest thinking she will bolt. No, she stands still and lets me rub her chest. I move my hands up and start scratching her neck, in her mane and then massaging pretty vigorously with both hands. She gently tries to groom me in return and then continues to enjoy herself until she is so happy and relaxed that she is drooling. :lol: I run my hands the entire length of her neck, scrub at the top near her ears, all the way to the withers. Walk over to the other side and repeat. Step back and step forward briskly and she stands solid. She even let me stroke her jaw. Oh, and she doesn't have a halter on anymore because one of the other horses pulled it off. I am absolutely blown away by this change in behavior and just to be sure it wasn't a fluke I went back and did it again later. I must have loved on her for 30 minutes and...this...mare...wouldn't spend 3 seconds with me previously. I'm quite glad because we've got a lot of work to do before I can safely foal this mare out in May and handle the foal without getting myself killed. I'm told that she kicks if you try to touch her hind end or get too close back there. Of course this is not conducive to foaling.

[dotneko]

We had a pony run through mirrors that had to be tied 24/7 for
months while his injuries healed. Plenty of horses live in standing
stalls tied at night also. It is an alternative.
What about a low dose of ace tablets in his evening feed? or
reserpine?
Dot

[Samotis]

I think I will ask about the Ace tablets from my vet. I have the liquid, but it may not last as long.

I will get him the magnesium supplement. I can give it to him at night with his grain.

He was super lame again yesterday when the farrier came out. Didn't even want to hold is other leg up so he could put the shoe on.:( The BO gives him bute when he is really bad, but I hate to make it a habit.

I am going to get him shavings Saturday and order the mag calm right away. I will also call the vet next week and get him some ace powder. I also need to find a hay bag, I know I have one somewhere.

Thanks for all the ideas and I will let you know how he does. He was happy as a clam this afternoon out in the pasture with his buddy. I said hi to him from the yard and he looked up and then went back to munching away on his hay.

To answer some questions, he hates being turned out at night and he is in a mare motel at night so he can easily see his neighbor, plus the other 7 horses that are in the other stalls! We also tried putting him inside at night and in a smaller stall and he hated it. His outside stall is pretty large.

If I just knew what was causing the pacing. I don't think it is a sight issue, but how do you know? His eyes look fine. Could be a hearing thing. He hears everything.

It is so strange because he was absolutly bombproof as a young horse. I showed him in the childrens and junior hunters as a young kid and he never did anything to me. He was 4 years old when we started the childrens and I never had any spooking issues with him. Up until about 14 and he was an amazing quiet show hunter.:( then he just got goofy!!!

He has got way spookier with age.

[lindasp62]

I really commend you for putting so much effort into solving this mystery and making your horse as comfortable as possible.

I would say go ahead and try the shavings and MagCalm BEFORE the Ace (I always lean towards everything as an option before considering meds). In re-reading your posts and the responses, and what works and doesn't, the only thing different, that you many not have tried is a low light, or leave the aisleway light on. Since he runs at night in the pasture, and paces in the stalls, the only commonality is the darkness (as you have addresses the confinement issue). If a light makes a difference, you might want to look into vision issues. They are not all redily visible (as is Uveitis in advanced stages). Ruling that out, maybe he is just afraid of the dark?

One more idea....can you put a play ball or one of those things (can't remember what they are called), but it is a kind of boredom toy...you put grain in it...the horse rolls it around with his nose, bit by bit pieces of grain fall out, they forage for the fallen grain. Of course, he would still be walking with this, but not "pacing" and if it is a psychological issue for sure, it would keep his mind busy.

Good Luck:)

[SpiritN]

Samotis,

I know you aren't crazy about the idea of tying him, but I really think this will work. They do sell those trailer ties and cross ties that have the breakaway features with velcro. You could use one of those for peace of mind (or even use twine) so that if he got himself in a jam it would just release and he would be fine. I use those ties in my trailer and they have (unfortunately) come VERY handy twice in my time trailering. They break away nicely with just a small hanging piece under the halter.

Anyway - just a thought. :)

[AngelainTexas]

He is fine during the day and is out all day. He hates to be out at night and will just run. He has got worse with age, so it must be some kind of mental issue that is getting worse.

2nd page:)

[Samotis]

I have to double check with the bo, but I am pretty sure there is a night light out in the mare motel. Could be wrong.

He had a ball and a green feed toy. He just kicks it out of the way and keeps walking. We have tried putting things in his way, he just bulldozes through it.

He only walks, I have never seen him trot or run when he paces, but it is enough to make him extremly sore on his ddft injury. (that the vet says will probably never heal porperly since he can't have stall rest and even then it is a small possibility)

[mhtokay]

I was going to suggest a night light. You mentioned his hearing... cotton in his ears to quiet the night? On the onchocerca (sp) thread they talked about the neck thread worms getting in the eyes and the horses being spooky.

[Highflyer]

I don't know if it's an option or not, but if his stall is big enough, could he share with the other horse? Sometimes that works surprisingly well with worriers.

[Go Fish]

My friend's young WB mare did this...they found her a stall where she could stick her head out. The stall walking stopped.

[willowoodstables]

Where do I start. He did best when I was at my old show barn. He would get out for 4 hours in a small paddock and then was in a small inside stall. I know, it sounds terrible, but that is when he paced the least.

We have a TB at the barn that did this to the point of wrecking his hocks and stifles. Out all day..he is fine. Of course now that is freezing cold (or terribly buggy in the summer) he comes in and walks all nite till his stall was bare in his path.

We took a board and "squished" his stall until it was almost a standing stall. We used eye-hooks on twine attached to a long 2x6 and it hangs from the bars in his stall so that if he did get into trouble the board will swing or give. As long as he gets out during the day or ridden/exercised he doesn't seem stiff at all. He is also no longer sore in the stifles and hocks (of course he only goes to the right so that side was the worse lameness-wise). He is a much happier horse IMHO and happier too because now nothing hurts when he works.

Kim

[Wee Dee Trrr]

Tie him up. I've known a few horses that pace until they're sick. Their owners just tie them up and they settle down just fine...

[Samotis]

Well, he is no better. He was terrible yesterday. I had to Ace him to get him to relax.

The shavings did nothing. They were all pushed out of his stall the next day. I am going to take him off all of his senior and alfalfa and just free feed him bermuda. Maybe he is just having a bad food reaction.

I did call the vet and he is going to discuss options with his neurologist friend. He even mentioned Prozac.

I did talk to the animal psychic. She said that he was all over the place with his mind like trying to talk to someone with A.D.D. She also said that he had something going on with the left side of his brain. She asked me if he ever had an injury. He does have narcolepsy, so he could have fallen and hit his head. I don't know. One thing that she did say that really is true is that sometimes he becomes such a machine about the pacing that he is not aware of his surroundings. This is so true. I can go in his stall and he will just walk into me. I have to physically push him and yell his name for him to even acknowledge me.

I tried the tying, he just got really pissed off and started ramming himself into the stall.

I am going to put him on some herbs for his nervous system as suggested by a few people as well as some magnesium and see if he gets better.

I am hoping something helps, but if it is a brain issue, there is really nothing I can do.:(

I certainly can't afford a brain scan, so that is out of the question. I am really starting to consider putting him down.:no:

[BornToRide]

Yes, give it a try, start with the basics - hay only for a while. Perhaps consider at least adding magnesium, like MagOx with some hay pellets. You can wet it with water to ensure he gets every dose. Be prepared to give this enough time, at least 2 - 4 weeks.

Also perhaps consider having a facial release therapist work on his head , poll and neck. Might help. I have a regular patient, 20+ TB mare, who exhibited some strange running behavior in 2007. I was asked to start massage therapy on her and she gets regular treatments about every 3 - 4 weeks. It seems to make a difference , as she relapses each time the schedule gets pushed out. Her half brother died from a brain tumor.

[mhtokay]

It does sound as if he has some sort of mental issue like Alzheimer's the way he has changed so much. How about acupuncture to sort of release something. the food changes are a good idea, too. Good luck.

[bludejavu]

Samotis - I should have posted about this earlier but didn't think about it. Have you tried to see if he is Vitamin B-1 deficient? All you need to do is add Vit. B-1 crumbles to his feed and see how he reacts to them. Sometimes it can take five to seven days to really take effect but I've seen some really good results before. You probably know this, but a horse that is deficient in this vitamin can become pretty nervous.

You can buy them anywhere but SmartPak has a pretty good price. http://www.smartpakequine.com/ProductClass.aspx?productclassid=3503&cmPreserveSource=true&cmPreserveCategory=true

[cosmos mom]

I'm so sorry that nothing so far has worked. All that you can do it try all of the options suggested here and by the vet. In the end, if you do have to put him down, you would still be doing what is in his best interest. Please stay strong! Hopefully the ace vitamin B or magnesium will help him! Jingles to you and your boy.

[Bluey]

Being a TB, we know they are known for some being pacers, so thinking horses, not zebras is sensible.
After all you have tried, maybe it is time to think zebras after all?
He sounds like some horses that get into loco weed and are not quite right afterwards.
Is that a possibility and has your vet checked for that?

http://jas.fass.org/cgi/content/full/81/9/2285

[Brockstables]

Oh my, this certainly did generate a ton of responses!
We have had a few stall pacers come through our rescue, and here is what worked for us:
*ProCMC (magnesium/calcium supplement) worked for one that was really nervous.
*Change in diet to just a good hay worked for one that was having issues with grain.
*Redesigning the stall so that she had a small paddock to go out during the night worked for my mare who was claustrophobic - we just added a small round pen (well, rectangular pen) to the outside stall door so she had her own small turnout during the night. Everyone else was in for the night, she wandered in and out. Just knowing she COULD go out calmed her.
*Tying one horse was necessary - he came from a barn where he was in a straight stall nearly 24/7. He came here to 12+ hours of turnout and a box stall. He, too, would pace until he injured himself.
Glad to see you are consulting your vet on this one! Best of luck with your pacer... I would try adding a small paddock to the outer stall door if possible. Just my two cents... LOL
J

[Samotis]

He hasn't paced for 2 days! Yay! We have had him off alfalfa for the last 2 days, but issue number 2 is now he has torn something else on his bad leg.

He is still very lame, but tonight I did notice another swelling/heat area on the inside ankle. Meaning he has torn something else. :( I wrapped it and am just going to keep an eye on it. He was pacing really bad a few days ago and i am sure thats when it happened. If he tears anything else on that leg, he will have no leg left.

That may be why he has stopped pacing. He does seem happy though. (it is so sad to see him so crippled though)

So good news and bad news. I should get the new calming supplements and stomach soother early next week and I will start him on that.

I will keep everyone posted!

[BornToRide]

Dang - I hope he heals well and soon!Has a vet looked at it yet?

[Samotis]

He has had so many injuries I know exaclty what it is. I don't know to what degree the tear is, but I am pretty darn sure he pulled/torn part of his ligament. Only help for that is stall rest which he can't do and that is why the first tear hasn't healed and he still has lingering fluid from that injury. That injury he got pretty sound on. Now he is lame and I am assuming it has to do with the new swelling/heat.