Ulcers, is this really a treatment?

[dalpal]

Okay I was talking to feed rep this AM who launched inot this big spiel about how hay is the culprit of ulcers because of the way horses chew hay...it then sits in their stomachs for long periods of time and become acid balls, thus creating ulcers......so, according to this theory, I guess ALL horses have ulcers.....well unless they eat chopped hay (feed person said they don't have this problem with chopped hay)??

Anyway, then told me that fenbendazole (found in a particular dewormer that was mentioned) cures ulcers???? a 10 day dosage of this particular dewormer would cure ulcers....but since this is off label use of the product, legally, the company cannot tell you this.

Has anyone heard of this before? I'm just curious.

[deltawave]

Sounds like the rep has a little bit of knowledge floating around, and is coming up with his/her own interpretation of what is known about ulcer disease. Sounds like the rep is lacking some major fundamental knowledge of digestive physiology, not to mention parasitology. :)

[IsolaBella09]

Yeah, that explanation definitely doesn't sound legit. haha.

[2 tbs]

Hope I never have to encounter this rep. They probably won't take kindly to my uncontrollable laughter :winkgrin:

[EqTrainer]

Oh dear.

The hay thing.. what insanity is that? Were they also trying to sell you some sort of complete feed so the horses wouldn't need hay anymore? You have to PM me and tell me who it was :lol: or I'll lose sleep wondering :lol:

Now... I had a vet from Australia tell me that they use Strongid as a cure for ulcers. I didn't ask any details, just added it to my list of things that make me go Hmmmmm...

[vineyridge]

Oh dear.

The hay thing.. what insanity is that? Were they also trying to sell you some sort of complete feed so the horses wouldn't need hay anymore? You have to PM me and tell me who it was :lol: or I'll lose sleep wondering :lol:

Now... I had a vet from Australia tell me that they use Strongid as a cure for ulcers. I didn't ask any details, just added it to my list of things that make me go Hmmmmm...

I've heard that about fenbendazole before. It's the same chemical family, more or less, I've been told, as the active ingredient in Gastrogard. Anecdotal evidence from many foxhunters is that the ten day treatment can produce changes in many cases that are consonant with improving ulcers.

[ASB Stars]

Anecdotal evidence from many foxhunters is that the ten day treatment can produce changes in many cases that are consonant with improving ulcers.

OK. I thought consonants were the ones that weren't vowells. Really.:yes:

But seriously, I have always understood hay to be the panacea, in this case. In essence, if they are eating, and digesting, on a consistent basis, it is far more in keeping with their nature as grazers. N'est pas?

And ten days? OK, 'splain this one to me...

[Simkie]

I have also heard that fenbendazole may have some positive effect on gastric ulcers, because it is a -azole--like omeprazole.

No idea if that's true, or if someone just thinks so.

[deltawave]

I hope Peggy the chemistry whiz responds, but I don't think having "-azole" on the end of the name of the compound makes it related. The dewormer family is "-bendazole", not just "-azole". I think "azole" just means there are some funny chemical bonds or other.

[EqTrainer]

I think DW is right.

However, I was told this long before Gastroguard or Ulcerguard came out... this was a good 15 -18 years ago.

FWIW, we have no idea how parasites might affect ulcers. So who knows what the real tie in may be there.

[deltawave]

Well, we could speculate that there is an association with phases of the moon and ulcers, too. :) But that doesn't make a feed sales representative any more legitimate or knowledgeable for sharing those theories. Maybe a sales pitch doesn't require facts, but I pity the poor customer that gets all glassy-eyed when a salesperson spews a few random and impressive-sounding facts for the sake of making a point. Or a sale. Makes me NUTS, as a matter of fact.

[lizathenag]

Actually the -azole in the word does mean they are related. both probably containing heterocyclic aromatic nitrogen compounds. . .

[newrider]

Many human ulcers are actually caused by the h-pylori bacteria. In people, omeprazole and all other proton-pump inhibitors can heal ulcers, but if the underlying cause of the ulcer is the h-pylori infection, the ulcers will likely recur until a course of antibiotics is given. Some doctors substitute the antibiotic metronidazole (Flagyl) for clarithromycin or amoxicillin. Maybe the fenbenzadole helps in horses if the underlying cause of the ulcer is some sort of parasitic infection. In humans, the patient gets both the omeprazole to heal the ulcer and the antibiotic to kill the h-pylori and prevent recurrence.

[horse-loverz]

But from what I have read they haven't isolated H-Pylori or any other infection to be the contributing cause to ulcers yet.

[EqTrainer]

Well, we could speculate that there is an association with phases of the moon and ulcers, too. :) But that doesn't make a feed sales representative any more legitimate or knowledgeable for sharing those theories. Maybe a sales pitch doesn't require facts, but I pity the poor customer that gets all glassy-eyed when a salesperson spews a few random and impressive-sounding facts for the sake of making a point. Or a sale. Makes me NUTS, as a matter of fact.

Ummmm... I was told this by a *vet*.

Not a feed sales rep.

I didn't feel glassy-eyed, either, FWIW.

[newrider]

"But from what I have read they haven't isolated H-Pylori or any other infection to be the contributing cause to ulcers yet."

Do you mean in horses? The data in humans is pretty clear if you read the studies that discovered the bacteria and also studies done with the treatment protocol that eradicates the H-pylori. Some data suggests that h-pylori may actually reduce GERD symptoms, but that is unclear, so if a patient has an ulcer and tests positive for h-pylori, they will usually be given the antibiotics because there's so much evidence that h-pylori DOES cause ulcers in humans, and GERD will be controlled by the proton pump inhibitor anyway. The researchers who discovered the link between h-pylori and ulcers (in humans) were awarded the Nobel Prize for the discovery.

Clearly I have no idea if a wormer has anything to do with horse ulcers, it was just a thought since there is pretty good evidence for the link between h-pylori and ulcers in humans.

[dalpal]

Okay..this makes me feel better. :lol:

I was very skeptical as I listened, hell..what isn't everyone using this method?

Eqtrainer, do you remember the website I sent you a few months ago, asking what you thought about their grain products??? That's the one.

I was contemplating switching over to their feed and was told that I should call and talk to the nutritionist.

Well, lucky me..I didn't get him, I got his wife. The conversation started off okay. Basically my older horse has said screw you to alfalfa....he doesn't like the cubes, and not crazy about his alfalfa based Progressive Sr. pellets. He still has a very hearty appetite for beet pulp, eats LOTS of hay (Godforbid..maybe he does have ulcers from too much hay) and will maul textured feed (but he gets too high on it and can't have it). Of course she jumped to the ulcer conclusion immediatley. Now, granted...I'm not saying that I know for sure that he DOESN'T have old ulcers....but he shows none of the classic symptoms of ulcers. Hell, he looks like he's about 8 years old and he's somewhere in the 20 range.

His diet currently consists of about 3 pounds of grain per day...all the hay he wants (timothy grass mix), Linpro, Quessience, Beet Pulp, and Tractguard.

Anyway, I was contacting this particular company because I thought the taste factor may be beneficial to him...and I liked what I read about the feed. But the customer service ruined it for me.

I have two horses... 1 is 7 and my boy is 20ish. I told her this much and then we ended up talking about ulcers....about 15 minutes about what I could do.

Said that chopped hay will not cause ulcers but regular hay will because they don't chew it up and it sits in their stomach too long, and the acid builds up on it, thus causing ulcers.

Now, once we actually start talking about feed options (I was thinking about the senior line), she got a phone call from her husband on call waiting...and I'm not kidding...said basically...Yeah, this one will work for you, gotta go, my husband is calling me and HUNG UP ON ME. :eek: Did not ask for my number to call me back. I got the impression that she and hubby own the company, so I was a bit shocked that she would treat a potential new customer so rudely, not to mention, the barn is looking for a new feed company and there was always the potential that they might have gotten a new barn account (which I did mention to her at the beginning).

I was stunned...all I could think was...Don't think so. The one that she immediately shouted to me was called either Safe and Sweet or Sweet and Safe. Made no sense to me....I had told her that my horse gets high off of textured feed and the one that she tells me to buy is Sweet and Safe?????? I don't think he needs anything that is sweet. And she wasn't even intersted in talking about the younger horse.

The other claim was that their company uses human grade vitamins and that most companies do not use this.

The feed itself sounded interesting, but the abrupt, rude hang up in my ear....spoke volumes to me...and needless to say, I went and picked up two more bags of Progressive Sr. tonight.

I feed him a full serving of beet pulp for lunch and then save a handful to mix in with his dinner....seems to be eating it better.

I may just go back to the diet balancer. I have used Blue Seal Sr years ago and liked it, but someone said that extruded nuggets can also make a horse high as a kite.

[Simkie]

Many human ulcers are actually caused by the h-pylori bacteria. In people, omeprazole and all other proton-pump inhibitors can heal ulcers, but if the underlying cause of the ulcer is the h-pylori infection, the ulcers will likely recur until a course of antibiotics is given. Some doctors substitute the antibiotic metronidazole (Flagyl) for clarithromycin or amoxicillin. Maybe the fenbenzadole helps in horses if the underlying cause of the ulcer is some sort of parasitic infection. In humans, the patient gets both the omeprazole to heal the ulcer and the antibiotic to kill the h-pylori and prevent recurrence.

There is ZERO evidence that H. pylori is a causative agent in equine ulcers.

They have found another Helicobacter (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TD6-4MMPNJC-3&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=42e3b419d3f579e7536e9096ac554c08) that has been newly isolated in equines, but there is ZERO evidence that it causes ulcers, or that horses with horses with ulcers are even are infected with it, or that it even lives in the stomach.

[newrider]

I figured h-pylori was probably not the culprit in equine ulcers since I have never heard of anyone using the human antibiotic/PPI protocol for horses. If it were that easy, horse owners everywhere would be jumping right on the treatment, I am sure, because it would eradicate the underlying cause of the ulcers rather than just healing the ulcer.

[horse-loverz]

"But from what I have read they haven't isolated H-Pylori or any other infection to be the contributing cause to ulcers yet."

Do you mean in horses? The data in humans is pretty clear if you read the studies that discovered the bacteria and also studies done with the treatment protocol that eradicates the H-pylori. Some data suggests that h-pylori may actually reduce GERD symptoms, but that is unclear, so if a patient has an ulcer and tests positive for h-pylori, they will usually be given the antibiotics because there's so much evidence that h-pylori DOES cause ulcers in humans, and GERD will be controlled by the proton pump inhibitor anyway. The researchers who discovered the link between h-pylori and ulcers (in humans) were awarded the Nobel Prize for the discovery.

Clearly I have no idea if a wormer has anything to do with horse ulcers, it was just a thought since there is pretty good evidence for the link between h-pylori and ulcers in humans.

Yes I did mean in horses sorry if I wasn't clear.. I am well aware of it being in humans since I work in the medical field. I found it interesting that they hadn't found it in horses yet.

[meaty ogre]

EqT, I've heard the fenbendazole thing before too. I can't remember where though.
This article does identify both omeprazole and fenbendazole as being members of the benzimidazole family of drugs, but goes on to note that drugs in this class have very different actions. I can't remember my log-in to read the full article, so I can only read the abstract.
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0034528803001498

And I've heard the exact opposite re: the hay. Chopped hay, hay pellets/meal (any hay that has been processed) has a faster gastric emptying time than unprocessed hay, and in order to neutralize and absorb the stomach acid to prevent damage to the stomach lining, the hay has to be present.

[JB]

From what I remember, food tends to have a set amount of time it's in the stomach before it's sent on, regardless of what the food is. That's a big reason why large grain meals are such trouble. They don't get fully digested in the stomach before being sent on back, and since "on back" isn't designed to deal well with grains, much less large amounts of them, things tend to start fermenting, and that's when you get into toxins being released.

[Larbear]

I hope Peggy the chemistry whiz responds, but I don't think having "-azole" on the end of the name of the compound makes it related. The dewormer family is "-bendazole", not just "-azole". I think "azole" just means there are some funny chemical bonds or other.

Not Peggy but, both fenbendazole and omeprazole both have a benzimidazole in their core structures so they are related in structure to some extent. They have different functional groups (2) coming of the core benzimidazole structure.

[deltawave]

Related by having a molecule in common, perhaps. But that doesn't mean they have even remotely similar actions. Methanol and ethanol are VERY closely related, but one will kill you lickety split and the other will only make you silly. :) :)

The whole business of hay "sitting in the stomach and forming an acid ball" is what makes me go "huh?". Food moves on out of the (very small) stomach on a pretty regular basis, so the horse can keep on shoving in more, or so I thought. Most hay digestion takes place "downstream" and it serves no biological purpose for hay to just sit in the stomach. Unless a horse has problems with gut motility, the whole premise of hay just sitting there makes no sense at all. Which is why I suspect the OP's original sales rep skipped a few classes in equine physiology. :)

[Larbear]

Related by having a molecule in common, perhaps. But that doesn't mean they have even remotely similar actions. Methanol and ethanol are VERY closely related, but one will kill you lickety split and the other will only make you silly. :) :)


Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that since they both had benzimidazole as their core structure it would automatically mean that they have the same mode of action :) While they are related by core structure, yes, different functional groups can give very different profiles in terms of what their targets are and also potency and toxicity. Even what appears to be relatively small changes to a compound (molecule) can make huge changes to it's properties.

[dalpal]

Related by having a molecule in common, perhaps. But that doesn't mean they have even remotely similar actions. Methanol and ethanol are VERY closely related, but one will kill you lickety split and the other will only make you silly. :) :)

The whole business of hay "sitting in the stomach and forming an acid ball" is what makes me go "huh?". Food moves on out of the (very small) stomach on a pretty regular basis, so the horse can keep on shoving in more, or so I thought. Most hay digestion takes place "downstream" and it serves no biological purpose for hay to just sit in the stomach. Unless a horse has problems with gut motility, the whole premise of hay just sitting there makes no sense at all. Which is why I suspect the OP's original sales rep skipped a few classes in equine physiology. :)

ROTFLMAO..oh please, no..she's not mine, I promise. :lol: I was just curious about their feed and she gave me this ucler spiel.

[deltawave]

LOL, I wouldn't want her either. :p