Barefoot lunatics.... check this out!!!!

[tidy rabbit]

Here's my horse's foot 3 days after having his bar shoes pulled. He was getting reset every 3 weeks in an effort to try to control the crushing effects that were going on in his feet!

The other shot is 14 weeks later! So, what do you think?

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2154924620048495570QoLLVK

[Tree]

Disclaimer: not a barefoot lunatic.

Boy, that reminds me of a TB the summer camp was given that arrived with egg bars and long overdue for a reset. His frogs had that same bulbous shape and a lot of concavity with the bulbs shoved back and pinched.

Tree

[spoiledsweet]

I'm not a barefoot person at all - your thread title just caught my eye. :lol: That said, the foot looks great. Are you riding that horse, or is he being rested? I have a horse that lived in frog pressure pads and bar shoes. Now that she's turned out due to an injury, she is barefoot. I'm pleased that her feet are normalizing. And I'm hopeful that when she's started back to work, she will be able to wear standard shoes.

[tidy rabbit]

He's in a very decreased work load. He took several weeks off of work and then got back to it at a low level. Just cavaletti and flatwork. Before the hard freeze we've got here in ohio he was doing little gymnastics and the last time I rode him I jumped him over a single vertical several times and got up to 3'6, maybe 3'9. He was the best he'd been in YEARS. He'll need to go back to shoes to get back to the big jumps I'm sure, but it's so cool to see his feet returning to normal!

[Tree]

The TB I mentioned was washed up as a Jumper at age 7 with lateral sidebone on the RF which was also toed-out. The Camp's farrier pulled his shoes and trimmed him through the summer months and then I started trimming him in the Fall and have ever since. The Camp decided to keep him barefoot and buy him some boots (Boa's) which he wore for the next 2 summers whenever he was ridden on gravel. By his 3rd summer he was going out barefoot all of the time. He doesn't do any high jumps...maybe a few logs out on the trails and cross country gallops with the experienced riding staff. Other than a few abscesses early on he's done very well and a real asset to the camp program with his previous training and great attitude.

Tree

[PNWjumper]

I know of one person up here who shows her horses at high levels (up to level 7 jumpers) barefoot....with the nice bonus of never needing to put studs in! That would make it worthwhile right there :lol: Maybe Havoline can stay barefoot if he's made that much of an improvement?!

[tidy rabbit]

I know of one person up here who shows her horses at high levels (up to level 7 jumpers) barefoot....with the nice bonus of never needing to put studs in! That would make it worthwhile right there :lol: Maybe Havoline can stay barefoot if he's made that much of an improvement?!

Time will tell! Wouldn't that be awesome? The thing that is most impressive is that he never gets stocked up any more. He used to have continuous stockiness through his fetlocks/ankles. NOT ANY MORE! :)

[MunchkinsMom]

Incredible change in such a short time.

I'm not a barefoot fanatic either, there are some circumstances where I think shoes are needed, but barefoot is most likely best whenever possible.

Just pulled the shoes off my 21 year old gelding 5 weeks ago, that several farriers in the past had said should stay in shoes for life. Well, my current farrier said "lets give it a try". He just got trimmed again today, and is doing great, never had a lame step so far. I am hoping to see some improvement in his feet over time also.

My other gelding is 6 and has never been shod and has great feet, and my 25 year old mare has not worn shoes in 6 years.

I'm blessed with nice grass pastures with sandy soil, no rocks or mud, which I think made the transition easier.

[BornToRide]

Why the "lunatic" in the title?? :confused:

You are just showing what we commonly see in horses taken out of shoes - a forward pulled and contracted hoof thanks to shoes and which already opened up quite a bit after only 14 days of shoe removal! :yes::)

Here is another such example - this horse wore reversed shoes for a while and was VERY uncomfortable in those. About 2 months elapsed between the before and after shots: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/Popelina/MarshallBFATPhotosofLF.jpg

[tidy rabbit]

Why the "lunatic" in the title?? :confused:

That's just what I typed when I wrote the title maybe being a little contentious. ;)



You are just showing what we commonly see in horses taken out of shoes - a forward pulled and contracted hoof thanks to shoes and which already opened up quite a bit after only 14 days of shoe removal! :yes::)


It was actually 14 weeks. I wish he'd improved that much in 14 days.

[BornToRide]

Ahh, thanks for the clarification - similar then to what I experienced with the client's horse I posted :-)

[Rick Burten]

but it's so cool to see his feet returning to normal!

Wait, you think the foot on the right in the photos is 'returning to normal'?

My apology. I went back and looked at the photos again and saw the explanation at the top of the photos. It didn't show up well when I first looked at the photos and my tired old eyes just flat missed it. Mea culpea.

Indeed, the foot looks better and regardless of who is doing the hoof care, they are helping the horse.

[Rick Burten]

Here is another such example -

Apples to road apples. You have done what is so common amongst the barefoot cult when they are trying to substantiate a claim i.e.: present a foot that has had the shoe removed but has not been cleaned up and trimmed, and compare it to a bare foot that has been trimmed. Its disingenuous, hypocritical and insulting to anyone who understands the little game being played. Unfortunately, there are enough pilgrims out there who in their gullibility, actually believe the hype and braggadocio of the presenter and the presentation.

[jacksorbetter]

i have had the same experience with my mare. She was on/off lame a lot over the course of two years... always foot related. then i decided to give her a year off... pulled her shoes...watched her feet absolutley transform in shape and concavity over 3 months or so... and have now put her back into moderate work barefoot. She is sound and happy so far... We jumped a 3 foot course last week, and she felt the best shes ever felt. I'm not saying every horse should be barefoot... but in this case, i am certain that my horse is better off barefoot, and we will continue to see how far we can go barefoot... hoping to have her competing in the level 3's by summer.

[jacksorbetter]

let me add, that i have a wonderful farrier who has been through all of this with me... he agrees that this mare's feet do not agree with shoes!! Even he is shocked by the transformation in her feet since we went barefoot. And he tried everything from bar shoes to glue-ons, to every pad out there, etc... he is a well renowned farrier in my area.

[BornToRide]

let me add, that i have a wonderful farrier who has been through all of this with me... he agrees that this mare's feet do not agree with shoes!! Even he is shocked by the transformation in her feet since we went barefoot. And he tried everything from bar shoes to glue-ons, to every pad out there, etc... he is a well renowned farrier in my area.
YEEEAAAEAHHHH for your farrier!! :)

[TSWJB]

tidy rabbit,
his feet look wonderful! and i can tell that even if the feet were trimmed at 3 days you can still see that the foot would not be as opened up as the 14 week foot.
i have always had my horses in shoes. i was in show barns and that was what they said i had to do. even during periods when i was not riding due to injury, my horse still had to have 4 shoes even though he had good feet.
any young horse i had. the shoes were slapped on as soon as i arrived at the barn.
now i have a swiss warmblood that i bought last december. he came shoeless and since he was 3.5years old i opted not to go to the showbarn. well i started riding him lightly in the spring and kept his shoes off. and he has done really well. he feels so sound and wonderful! i ride him on trails and rocks and he never goes lame. his feet actually trim themselves as he wears evenly. when the farrier does trim him, there isnt alot to take off.
the thing is that everyone tells me i need to put shoes on. and i dont understand why. if he starts going short strided, has trouble tracking up, feels gimpy, starts bruising etc, i will most certainly put a pair of shoes on him. but he has never felt better to me. his feet look gorgeous. only the back ones have worn a bit at the toe area. but they dont seem to change and the horse feels great!
so why is it that i keep being advised to put shoes on him? everyone says he needs the support because he is tall. but i cant see how the shoes would support him? other than stopping his feet from grinding to nubs, which is not the case. i have read extensively on this subject and see so many cases reported just like your horse tidy rabbit. they repeatedly talk about how the shoes do not allow the foot to expand on impact like over a jump. yet barefoot the foot expands and contracts, saving the whole structure from jarring and impact.
i am going to try to bring my horse along barefoot if i can. i keep monitoring his feet, but i am curious why everyone keeps telling me i need shoes?
good luck with your horse tidy rabbit. his feet look wonderful to me!

[tidy rabbit]

TSWJB;

I currently have 4 horses barefoot. They're all doing great! My 17.1 + hand coming 4 y.o. has some of the most gigantic awesome feet ever, and I can't imagine that he'll ever need shoes regardless of his level of competition, but time will tell. He's trail riden, jumped courses, flatwork etc, and doesn't so much as get a chip in his feet.

With Havoline's feet (pictured above) it was about 8 weeks before he had any kind of real trim. I rasped his feet every other days for a couple weeks and slowly brought them back to shape. My farrier was scared to bring is toe back that far so i just did it gradually. It has worked out great! Now I just smooth his edges once a week or every 10 days and keep that toe back and the transformation has been so cool to see.

My farrier isn't thrilled in the reduction of his income, but he's still doing a nice job trimming the horses! :)

[lalahartma1]

Woohooo! Yay!

[FancyFree]

Congratulations on your horses feet. My horse has never had shoes. She's a Hanoverian with big, solid dinner-plate sized feet just like her mother's. Really good feet. You would not believe the pressure I get to shoe her. I got this big lecture from one of my trainer's other student. Mind you she has never seen my horse's feet, but she is sure they will break down as my horse's training progresses. I just nod my head and do exactly what I'm doing. Oh she's a big advocate of the Parelli games as well. :lol:

I can't understand why some people are so uncomfortable with others who don't do exactly as they do. I mean, shoe or don't shoe your horse. I don't care. It's none of my business.

[BornToRide]

Congratulations on your horses feet. My horse has never had shoes. She's a Hanoverian with big, solid dinner-plate sized feet just like her mother's. Really good feet. You would not believe the pressure I get to shoe her. I got this big lecture from one of my trainer's other student. Mind you she has never seen my horse's feet, but she is sure they will break down as my horse's training progresses. I just nod my head and do exactly what I'm doing. Oh she's a big advocate of the Parelli games as well. :lol:

I can't understand why some people are so uncomfortable with others who don't do exactly as they do. I mean, shoe or don't shoe your horse. I don't care. It's none of my business.Yeah, never mind the highly pregnant wild mares, who schlepp the extra weight around on bare hooves over all sort of terrain and are even expected to outrun a predator too. :winkgrin:
How long has she been barefoot now and what do you do with her?

[rcloisonne]

Yeah, never mind the highly pregnant wild mares, who schlepp the extra weight around on bare hooves over all sort of terrain and are even expected to outrun a predator too. :winkgrin:
There aren't any predators in NA capable of taking down a healthy adult horse with the exception of humans. That's why there are too many.

And what does a foal weigh? Average full term weight is 10% of the dam's, which for a feral mare would be about 80-90#. Nowhere near the weight of the average rider plus tack, never mind what a riding horse is asked to do on a regular basis. Again, you're comparing apples to, as Rick would say, "road apples". ;)

[Daydream Believer]

There aren't any predators in NA capable of taking down a healthy adult horse with the exception of humans. That's why there are too many.



I suppose mountain lions don't count? I know that they predate on feral horses and domestic livestock both.

[rcloisonne]

I suppose mountain lions don't count? I know that they predate on feral horses and domestic livestock both.
Doubtful a mountain lion would attack an a healthy adult horse, though I'm sure the very young, the old, the lame are taken occasionally. I also sincerely doubt herds of ferals are running away from mountain lions on a regular basis, if ever.

Horses gather and feed in wide open spaces. Unlike African lions, mountain lions don't usually run down dinner in that type of environment. Additionally, while African lions *could* possibly bring down an adult horse, they are much larger than their NA cousins and do not hunt alone.

Heck, this pride of 5 African lions (along with a big ol croc) had trouble with a baby water buffalo. Worth watching for the "rescue scene" at the end. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8DDYz68kM

[irishcas]

Apples to road apples. You have done what is so common amongst the barefoot cult when they are trying to substantiate a claim i.e.: present a foot that has had the shoe removed but has not been cleaned up and trimmed, and compare it to a bare foot that has been trimmed. Its disingenuous, hypocritical and insulting to anyone who understands the little game being played. Unfortunately, there are enough pilgrims out there who in their gullibility, actually believe the hype and braggadocio of the presenter and the presentation.



Hey Rick:

Hows your weekend going? I have to say, when I pull shoes on a horse I don't trim too much and just snap some photos. I mean you aren't going to trim your way out of contraction, lack of DC, imbalances, etc in one trim. I take those initial shots for my record keeping

So comparing a pulled shoe foot, sans trim and then showing same foot a few months later isn't wrong. IMO anyway.

I've put up a merged photo of a OTTB I pulled shoes on in August, the newer photo is from yesterday.

http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk64/irishcas/

The improvements have nothing to do with how neat or not neat either foot is. I'm looking at the overall shape of the capsule and also at the back of the foot.

Is the hoof perfect, far from it. But the horse was lame and now he is not.

Also before the usual questions take hold, let me tell you the hoofcare protocol for this horse so you have a more full picture of what you are looking at.

9 year old gelding, lives on varied terrain, out 24/7 except during hunting season and inclement weather.

Horse came to owner, was sound, shod on all 4.
1 year or so after getting horse, started having lameness issues. Progressed to the point where horse could not walk down a hill by himself, ridden or not.

Vet recommended taking horse to Pine Bush Equine Clinic in New York. Vets at that clinic insisted club foot needed special shoeing package, using glue ons. Not sure which ones. Owner trailered there every 5 weeks to have vet/and clinic farrier work on horse.

Xrays were taken every 6 months, clinic told owner, horse was improving. Xrays to my untrained eye showed further decline in orientation of P3. I don't have xrays they are not digital so you have to take my non medical view point on this :) Horse was shod by clinic/clinic farrier for 1.5 years.

Horse continued to decline, losing weight, not moving as much, starts pulling shoes and ripping huge chunks out of hoofwall. Next shoeing protocol was to use product to recreate missing hoof :rolleyes: and then to glue/nail shoes on.

Owner consulted with regular farrier who was doing her other two horses, he said, if it were him he would just pull the shoes and leave the horse bare :D

Owner told clinic vets and they advised horse could never function bare.

Horse pulled shoe himself 10 days after last reset, I was called to come work on horse, (regular farrier broke his hand) pulled other 3 shoes.

Had owner boot pad horse for 2 weeks while she treated the severe thrush/fungal infection no one had mentioned. As soon as it cleared up, I applied Equicast every 3 weeks for 3 applications.

Also suggested owner might want to treat horse for Ulcers and we switched his feed. He was very wasp waisted and didn't like being touched and extremely skinny. Yesterday saw a much happier horse, put on tons of weight and lost that waspy waist. As of yesterday owner has told me horse is moving great, trots down hills. I hadn't seen him in 7 weeks.

So that is the story. I also put up photos from my first visit of various shots of his foot. I didn't get a lot of shots yesterday as I had to get out of there to beat the storm. Still ended up driving for over 2 hours in a blinding snow storm :)

Anyway, Rick that was my long winded way of saying, I personally am not putting up radical shots before. As I said in the beginning of this post, it is to compare the Whole Hoof, not just a neatly trimmed wall and bottom of foot :)

Enjoy your evening

Regards,

[J.D.]

I suppose mountain lions don't count? I know that they predate on feral horses and domestic livestock both.

Or bears? Or concentrated pack of coyotes?

[Daydream Believer]

Or bears? Or concentrated pack of coyotes?

Good point...I would expect there's plenty of critters out there that would make a feral horse run other than people.

I remember reading somewhere...and I could never find it so don't ask...about California feral horses and the fact that they were seeing heavy predation by mountain lions in some HMA's to the point where most of the foals and young horses were killed one year.

I also bought a ranch raised filly that survived a mtn lion attack in Wyoming. She wore the scars from it also.

[BornToRide]

There aren't any predators in NA capable of taking down a healthy adult horse with the exception of humans. That's why there are too many.

And what does a foal weigh? Average full term weight is 10% of the dam's, which for a feral mare would be about 80-90#. Nowhere near the weight of the average rider plus tack, never mind what a riding horse is asked to do on a regular basis. Again, you're comparing apples to, as Rick would say, "road apples". ;)

You are definitely not correct - including fetus , placenta & amniotic fluid a pregnant 500 kg mare can easily gain up to 65 kg weight, often more like 70 - 90 kg - that's the weight of an average rider. For example, I weigh about 65 kg and I ride a 1400 lbs barefoot horse! Source (http://books.google.com/books?id=jlZAT-9VwUIC&pg=PA632&lpg=PA632&dq=weight+gain+in+pregnant+mares&source=web&ots=6T8waKpouJ&sig=yvaECbUvDwzYAJGjuJBOUcelKp0&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result)

In addition bands often run too because of herd dynamics and not always because of predators. Lower ranking herds are often chased off by higher ranking ones!

[tidy rabbit]

see, I knew this would end up becoming some strange conversation! I LOVE COTH!!! You guys are the bestest!

[BornToRide]

see, I knew this would end up becoming some strange conversation! I LOVE COTH!!! You guys are the bestest! :D

[TSWJB]

You would not believe the pressure I get to shoe her.
I can't understand why some people are so uncomfortable with others who don't do exactly as they do. I mean, shoe or don't shoe your horse. I don't care. It's none of my business.
i am getting the same pressure to shoe my horse. yet i have never owned a horse who has gone better than my new guy! he overtracks at the walk by 3 hoofprints! that does not seem like a horse who is sore and gimpy! i love the look of his feet. they never crack and seem to trim themselves down evenly. the farrier doesnt take off much.
what bothered me was the vet told me that i would have to shoe him because he was a big horse. he said it was okay for now since his feet looked good, but i wasnt doing that much with him. but i actually was trail riding and working on dressage with him. he just did a first level test one in my last lesson with the dressage trainer. and he said it was gorgeous! yet he wanted me to put shoes on too. he said i needed them. he wanted me to use his farrier and i did and she said his feet were fine for now. but i might need them in the spring! GRRRR! why is everyone jumping the gun? if i need them, my horse will get shoes. but for now i am loving every minute of going barefoot!

[TSWJB]

see, I knew this would end up becoming some strange conversation! I LOVE COTH!!! You guys are the bestest!

yeah tidy rabbit. why does anything about barefoot turn into some wierd wierd posts!
glad to hear your horses are barefoot and loving it. my horse is one year older than yours and i would love if he could stay barefoot forever! well see!

[TSWJB]

Vet recommended taking horse to Pine Bush Equine Clinic in New York. Vets at that clinic insisted club foot needed special shoeing package, using glue ons. Not sure which ones. Owner trailered there every 5 weeks to have vet/and clinic farrier work on horse.

Xrays were taken every 6 months, clinic told owner, horse was improving. Xrays to my untrained eye showed further decline in orientation of P3. I don't have xrays they are not digital so you have to take my non medical view point on this :) Horse was shod by clinic/clinic farrier for 1.5 years.

Regards,

why do vets recommend shoes? even if there is no problem so far? will a horse without shoes develop terrible problems (because they dont have the support of the shoes) without the owner noticing before its too late? thats what i was told. i said wouldnt i notice shortness of step, bruising etc. but they said no.

[Daydream Believer]

I had someone summer before last practically chew me out for not shoeing my stallion. She was at our breed registry's annual meeting and stopped to admire my horse. She picked up a hoof and saw that he was barefoot. I practically got accused of horse abuse despite that fact that he could soundly and happily walk over sharp rocks and gravel! My stallion has exceptional feet also.

Here we were at the Spanish Mustang Registry's Annual Meeting surrounded by some of the toughest and soundest horses you'll ever see and she was worried that my obviously sound barefoot horse was being abused by me riding him barefoot! It was really funny and she made quite a scene over it.

I asked her why she was so worried about it and she told me that all horses that are ridden MUST have shoes. That was when I knew I was talking to someone without a clue.

You folks who are under pressure to shoe from others...let your horses tell you what they need. If they need additional protection, than shoe them... and you really would rather not shoe, there are some other very good options now like hoof boots and some of the new ones just coming out look like they might prove to be very easy to use and very effective.

[BornToRide]

GRRRR! why is everyone jumping the gun? if i need them, my horse will get shoes. but for now i am loving every minute of going barefoot!Control. They want to control the situation because most assume a bare horse can only become sore. They never consider taking a deep breath and allowing it to proof itself.

why do vets recommend shoes? even if there is no problem so far? will a horse without shoes develop terrible problems (because they dont have the support of the shoes) without the owner noticing before its too late? thats what i was told. i said wouldnt i notice shortness of step, bruising etc. but they said no.Because they all receive traditional hoof care training in vet school that have yet to consider alternatives!

[TSWJB]

I practically got accused of horse abuse despite that fact that he could soundly and happily walk over sharp rocks and gravel! My stallion has exceptional feet also.

You folks who are under pressure to shoe from others...let your horses tell you what they need. If they need additional protection, than shoe them... and you really would rather not shoe, there are some other very good options now like hoof boots and some of the new ones just coming out look like they might prove to be very easy to use and very effective.
what are the signs that a horse needs shoes? i would think bruising, shortness of step, gimpy etc. but i was told that if i didnt shoe it could be doing permanent damage and by the time i noticed it would be too late. i just do not see it. i would think minor lameness etc would show up first??
BTW i walk my horse up the gravel driveway from the paddock to the barn. and i brought him to a horseshow and rode him on their gravel driveway and he was fine! he must have some tough feet!

[TSWJB]

Control. They want to control the situation because most assume a bare horse can only become sore. They never consider taking a deep breath and allowing it to proof itself.

Because they all receive traditional hoof care training in vet school that have yet to consider alternatives!
i always thought that a horse needed shoes on to be ridden as well. but i have done extensive reading on the internet and i am changing my mind.

[Daydream Believer]

what are the signs that a horse needs shoes? i would think bruising, shortness of step, gimpy etc. but i was told that if i didnt shoe it could be doing permanent damage and by the time i noticed it would be too late. i just do not see it. i would think minor lameness etc would show up first??
BTW i walk my horse up the gravel driveway from the paddock to the barn. and i brought him to a horseshow and rode him on their gravel driveway and he was fine! he must have some tough feet!

If you feel like your horse is uncomfortable on the footing you work him on or struggling for traction...than yes, he may need some additional help..be that a shoe or a boot...your choice. Listen to him and if he seems uncomfortable or sore, than reevaluate the situation.

[Dakotawyatt]

When I got my ottb in August, I had his racing plates pulled and attempted to let him be bare. He just couldn't. He was very sore and gimpy without shoes. I waited 8 weeks before having fronts on, and now he's PERFECT! I tried regular applications of venice turpentine, but it just didn't work. Oh well, his feet look good in his fronts. If I ever get another one, I will try the barefoot thing again, but for Tiki, he just couldn't do it.

[JSwan]

I suppose mountain lions don't count? I know that they predate on feral horses and domestic livestock both.

There's a horse in our hunt that was attacked by a mountain lion. Huge scar on the horse's hindquarters. (Horse came from out west somewhere). The mountain lion really messed that horse up. Horrible scar.

You'd think she'd freak about hounds and horse's coming up behind her at high speeds, or have trouble with the craziness of hunting.

Nope. She's a nice little horse.

Must be the shoes.:winkgrin:

[BornToRide]

When I got my ottb in August, I had his racing plates pulled and attempted to let him be bare. He just couldn't. He was very sore and gimpy without shoes. I waited 8 weeks before having fronts on, and now he's PERFECT! I tried regular applications of venice turpentine, but it just didn't work. Oh well, his feet look good in his fronts. If I ever get another one, I will try the barefoot thing again, but for Tiki, he just couldn't do it.The question that should have been explored here extensively is WHY he was so sore and gimpy. In many horses the diet can cause this - it makes hooves weaker and softer. It could have also been the trim, if the horse was trimmed with too much sole and frog removed. Sure the shoe helped, but it is simply covering up the real root cause of why he was sore & gimpy.

It is common for horses that are taken out of shoes to be sore for any of the reasons stated above. Underdeveloped internal hoofstructures are also a factor, if the horse has worn shoes for a very long time and from an early age on. That's why it takes some horses so long to transition to barefoot - their unhealthy hooves need to heal first with the right support: correct trimming, diet and adequate exercise, combined with boots if necessary to keep the horse comfortable.

[Posting Trot]

Mark Rashid for many years at his clinics rode a horse who had survived a mountain lion attack in Colorado. The horse looked fine, but apparently some permanent muscle damage to one shoulder and so couldn't canter on one of his leads.

[matryoshka]

TSWJB, it's possible your vet and farriers are concerned the horse could get pedal osteitis, which is inflammation in the bottom surface of the coffin bone. It causes changes to the bone that can affect the soundness of your horse for life. Ask JD to post some rads of horses with PO if you want to see what can happen to the bottom of a hoof that is not adequately protected for the work he's asked to do.

Having said that, I still think if you are tuned in to how your horse is moving, he can be worked safely until he shows the signs of not holding up to work barefoot. He might be just fine, especially if he has decent concavity. I've had this discussion several times with one of my clients who has a young, relatively flat footed Clyde/TB cross. For now, he's doing well barefoot. I have a feeling when he reaches his full size and is asked to take the big jumps, he's going to need his soles farther from the ground than they currently are.

For OTTB's coming out of shoes, many of these are flat footed. Flat footed horses have a difficult time transitioning, especially if they are also thin soled. Add to that thin, soft walls that crack to the point where the horse is standing on his soles, and you have a recipe for extreme soreness and frequent abscesses. This is one reason why many of us recommend boots even for turnout when such a horse has his shoes pulled. This type of "transition" is work for the owner, since most boots are not designed for continuous use and need to be removed for an hour or more each day to dry them and the hoof out.

I had a very flat footed OTTB (pictured in my profile) who didn't even have discernable bars when he first came off the track. His walls were paper thin, as were his soles. His soles were actually a bit convex. He abscessed badly shortly after the shoes were pulled, but this may have been due in part to having a nasty injury to a hind leg that made him put a lot of weight on the front end. I started trimming him myself a few months after his shoes were pulled. Over time, his walls got thicker and he got a teeny amount of concavity, good bars, and thicker soles. Even so, he needed boots for riding, even on sand. We suspect he had suffered PO at some point in his life (maybe when I first pulled his shoes without providing adequate protection). He did very well in boots. If I had it to do over again, I'd have had boots on hand BEFORE the shoes were pulled to prevent the abscesses.

[TSWJB]

TSWJB, it's possible your vet and farriers are concerned the horse could get pedal osteitis, which is inflammation in the bottom surface of the coffin bone. It causes changes to the bone that can affect the soundness of your horse for life. Ask JD to post some rads of horses with PO if you want to see what can happen to the bottom of a hoof that is not adequately protected for the work he's asked to do.

.
i think that is what the vet was concerned about. doesnt pedal osteitis start with bruising? wouldnt you start to see signs that the horse was shortening his step etc, long before you developed pedal osteitis?
during my vetting i was told that my horse has very thick soles. does the sole start to thin out with shoes?
and i will continue to monitor his progress. if he needs shoes, he will get them! but for now i am thoroughly enjoying being barefoot! no worries of losing shoes when my horse is tromping in the mud!

[matryoshka]

JD is much more well versed on PO than I (serious understatement). For my client with the Clyde/TB cross, we are on the lookout for a shortened stride or a lack of willingness to go. I told her that an appearance of laziness on the horse's part could actually be soreness of the feet. The problem is that if the horse is equally sore on all feet, he's not going to exhibit classic signs of lameness.

You sound like you are really tuned in to your horse's performance. My guess is that you will notice a problem long before the horse suffers any damage--as long as you don't suffer from the "lunatic" ;) frame of mind where the horse has to be barefoot. I think farriers get used to owners who aren't looking for signs of problems and expect them to be the expert, which means they end up solving problems that could have been avoided. With these owners, it is much better for the farrier or vet to be proactive to avoid a problem rather than relying on the owner's judgement. As they get to know you and your level of horsemanship better, they may trust your judgment better.

[BornToRide]

Horses can bruise and abscess with shoes as well. Hooves also adapt to their environment. Horses on flat and harder ground tend to have less concavity -this assumes that their diet is low NSC to keep the laminae connection tight and strong.

[matryoshka]

Horses with flatter coffin bones also have flatter feet.

[JHUshoer20]

why do vets recommend shoes?
Because is in the best interest of the horses:rolleyes:
George

[JHUshoer20]

Horses can bruise and abscess with shoes as well. Hooves also adapt to their environment. Horses on flat and harder ground tend to have less concavity -this assumes that their diet is low NSC to keep the laminae connection tight and strong.
Bovine excrement. :yes: Just where in the world do you come up with this stuff?:eek:
George

[Rick Burten]

Welcome back lad. We've "sorely" missed you. (I think it comes from being inappropriately barefoot :D ).

[AZ Native]

Horses can bruise and abscess with shoes as well. Hooves also adapt to their environment. Horses on flat and harder ground tend to have less concavity -this assumes that their diet is low NSC to keep the laminae connection tight and strong.

Horses on hard ground do not have less concavity. The distance from the ground plane to the bottom of the coffin bone is the same on horses on hard ground as it is on horses on soft ground, irrespective of the diet. On hard ground the sole tends to thicken closer to the frog thus filling in the concave area that exists in the soft ground hoof. On hard ground there is no soil filling the concavity to wear the sole. So the sole gowth continues to fill in and callus until it starts contacting the ground and can then wear away. This is strictly a phenomenon that only occurs on barefoot horses and does not apply to shod horses. The distance from the ground plane to the bottom of the sole on these hard ground horses should be around 1/4 " to allow for the sole to drop due to hoof capsul expansion at maximum impact.
the
As to abscesses, shod horses generally have thinner soles that will bruise easier. The shoe does not cover a large area of the sole and thus does not provide protection for that area. The biggest factor for preventing abscessing is to provide a low NSC diet, shod or unshod. The same facters the weaken laminae also aid in promoting abscessing.In about 10,000 trims, I have seen only 2 abscesses on barefoot horses, both following large doses of meds.
BTW,this is DH's input this evening. He decided he wanted to put his 2 cents in.:cool:These are his obsevations from the field, along with others he has discussed it with.

[PiaffeDreams]

Apples to road apples. You have done what is so common amongst the barefoot cult when they are trying to substantiate a claim i.e.: present a foot that has had the shoe removed but has not been cleaned up and trimmed, and compare it to a bare foot that has been trimmed. Its disingenuous, hypocritical and insulting to anyone who understands the little game being played. Unfortunately, there are enough pilgrims out there who in their gullibility, actually believe the hype and braggadocio of the presenter and the presentation.

Thank you! The foot on the right is simply WWWAAAAAYYY overdue for trim and new shoes. Yikes.

You could actually bring the heels back further on the photo at right as there is plenty of overgrowth. The one at left the heels are running away from the bulbs. As tidy as the foot looks by comparison, you're going to have to start backing that toe up a LOT to counteract the fact the breakover is getting too far out in front.

The horse has had some time off with the new trim and is suddenly not stocking up. At least two variables are different. Without a control, its inconclusive why the horse is not stocking up as much.

Not to mention, side by side photos of the solar surface don't tell much of the tale at all. You need to see head on and lateral shots to see how the foot is balanced to the bony column of the horse.

[decorum]

On hard ground the sole tends to thicken closer to the frog thus filling in the concave area that exists in the soft ground hoof. On hard ground there is no soil filling the concavity to wear the sole. So the sole gowth continues to fill in and callus until it starts contacting the ground and can then wear away. This is strictly a phenomenon that only occurs on barefoot horses and does not apply to shod horses. obsevations from the field, along with others he has discussed it with.

Maybe in your climate but not in mine. I live where it is extremely wet and it is exactly the opposite. When it is dry here (about 2 months) horses fill in sole with shoes until they are level with the hoof wall but it almost never happens when they are bare.

But comparing W WA to AZ is like, well, you know. lol

Ann Szolas

[tidy rabbit]

Thank you! The foot on the right is simply WWWAAAAAYYY overdue for trim and new shoes. Yikes.

You don't know the history of the horse. It was being reset every 3 weeks and trimmed and toed back. It would get under run so fast and crush the foot it was totally out of control.

The horse has continued to work barefoot, but on a lower scale, but working just the same.

Like you said, you need more information to draw some conclusions.

I love these threads, all the looney toons come out of the wood work.

In CA the mountain lions don't chase down large prey, they lie in wait from places where they can jump down on the prey.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled ego massaging, enjoy each other.

[matryoshka]

C'mon George. Horses still get abscesses when shod.

FWIW, many distance horses gets shoes and pads so their soles are protected over the stony ground. Last year during the Foxcatcher ride at Fair Hill, many riders were caught off guard by the hard ground. Usually it is wet here that time of year and riders who aren't local think our ground soft and not rocky. It's largely clay, which means it becomes like concrete with rocks protruding when it is dry. So, there were a few pulls because horses were sore. Shod horses. I suspect these horses will be in pads next year, just in case it is dry. I don't know how the barefoot horses fared. I was the horse-ambulance service, so I only saw the horses who needed help to get back to camp.

[JHUshoer20]

C'mon George. Horses still get abscesses when shod.
Never denied that did I:confused:????????

Since you brought it up I'll say though that gravel type (in white line) abscesses are minimal in shod horses though.:yes:
George

[BornToRide]

C'mon George. Horses still get abscesses when shod.

FWIW, many distance horses gets shoes and pads so their soles are protected over the stony ground. Last year during the Foxcatcher ride at Fair Hill, many riders were caught off guard by the hard ground. Usually it is wet here that time of year and riders who aren't local think our ground soft and not rocky. It's largely clay, which means it becomes like concrete with rocks protruding when it is dry. So, there were a few pulls because horses were sore. Shod horses. I suspect these horses will be in pads next year, just in case it is dry. I don't know how the barefoot horses fared. I was the horse-ambulance service, so I only saw the horses who needed help to get back to camp.
Would also be interesting to know if the soles of those horses were carved on a regular basis by their farrier, possibly making them more susceptible to this.

[carrievalentino]

Glad you are having success!

I have no strong opinions about barefoot vs. not however I like to keep the shoes off as long as possible. My one gelding (shod for MANY years that developed contracted heals BADLY) who has feet similar to yours had really great success taking off the shoes. I had the same dramatic, positive results as you.
Kinda hard to make a study of it though as he is out of work now.

My other horse I need to have shod in front. I tried not to for a long time but his feet actually wore faster than they grew. (heavy horse, 1-3hrs work/day)

[BornToRide]

The diet may be a factor in your other horse - either too high in NSCs or not enough zinc and copper, or both :yes:

[PiaffeDreams]

In CA the mountain lions don't chase down large prey, they lie in wait from places where they can jump down on the prey.


No! Really? That was news to me. *rolls eyes*

[Watermark Farm]

Great before/after photos, although as someone pointed out, it's best to compare a trimmed foot with a trimmed foot. You can really see the changes, though ---- the foot is no longer shaped like an egg bar shoe!. I just pulled the bar shoes from my crushed-heel TB as well. They've been off a week, and it's been interesting to watch the feet change.

I'm not a barefoot fanatic either, although most of my horses are not shod. I work with a wonderful cjf who is the first person to say "let's pull the shoes!"

[carrievalentino]

The diet may be a factor in your other horse - either too high in NSCs or not enough zinc and copper, or both :yes:

Good point! I need to learn more about this!

[Rick Burten]

Horses on hard ground do not have less concavity.

It Depends....

The distance from the ground plane to the bottom of the coffin bone is the same on horses on hard ground as it is on horses on soft ground,

Not all the time it isn't.


On hard ground the sole tends to thicken closer to the frog thus filling in the concave area that exists in the soft ground hoof. On hard ground there is no soil filling the concavity to wear the sole. So the sole gowth continues to fill in and callus until it starts contacting the ground and can then wear away.

According to whom?

The distance from the ground plane to the bottom of the sole on these hard ground horses should be around 1/4 " to allow for the sole to drop due to hoof capsul expansion at maximum impact.

According to whom?

As to abscesses, shod horses generally have thinner soles that will bruise easier.
1. Balderdash, poppycock, nonsense.
2. According to whom?

The shoe does not cover a large area of the sole and thus does not provide protection for that area.

Unless of course, the horse is wearing a pad(s), right?

The biggest factor for preventing abscessing is to provide a low NSC diet, shod or unshod.

Rubbish.

The same facters the weaken laminae also aid in promoting abscessing.

According to whom?

In about 10,000 trims, I have seen only 2 abscesses on barefoot horses, both following large doses of meds.

So?

BTW,this is DH's input this evening. He decided he wanted to put his 2 cents in.:cool:These are his obsevations from the field, along with others he has discussed it with.

To where shall I forward his .015 cent change?

[matryoshka]

Would also be interesting to know if the soles of those horses were carved on a regular basis by their farrier, possibly making them more susceptible to this.I seriously doubt it. As a group, experienced distance riders are generally acutely aware of the need to protect their horse's soles. They may turn a blind eye to contracted heels as long as the horse is still moving out well, but I don't think they'd put up with carving sole. JMHO.