To Shoe or Not To Shoe!

[ksetrider]

I have a 12yr Appendix QH that has been shod all around since before I got him 6yrs ago. He is a show hunter, although we don't compete all that much (maybe 6 times/yr) but when we do, its usually at USEF A or B rated shows. I have been doing a lot of research and am considering working with a natural hoof trimmer instead of a farrier and remove his shoes totally.
The reason behind this: I switched farriers in September after moving. My horse's feet weren't in great shape after a summer of fly stomping- in fact he had lost a shoe twice. After the 2nd shoeing with my new farrier, I decided I just wasn't impressed with his work. So I started looking around again for referrals.
To make a long story short, I really would like to give this barefoot natural trim a try. All the articles I read just make sense and he seams like a good candidate for it, given where and when he is sore in his body.

What I am looking from you, the reader- is pros and cons of a barefoot jumper. I mean, shoes were created for a reason! Am I doing him a disservice jumping him barefoot (3'6 max) or do I need to let him tell me its ok or not ok. Looking for input!

[Tree]

What I am looking from you, the reader- is pros and cons of a barefoot jumper. I mean, shoes were created for a reason! Am I doing him a disservice jumping him barefoot (3'6 max) or do I need to let him tell me its ok or not ok. Looking for input!

It would depend on what his feet are like now, would they have time to rehab (if necessary), before show season begins, if his living arrangements would support or undermine efforts to be a high performance barefoot horse and if you can locate a trimmer who could help you achieve it.

Tree

[HydroPHILE]

Might be able to find something in this thread:

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=178490

[Tom Stovall]

ksetrider in gray

To make a long story short, I really would like to give this barefoot natural trim a try.

Don't fall for any politically correct nonsense: A trim is a trim is a trim! The quality of any trim depends on the knowledge and skill of the operator, not trendy nomenclature.

All the articles I read just make sense and he seams like a good candidate for it, given where and when he is sore in his body.

Despite what you may've read, correctly applied shoes can't make a horse sore.

What I am looking from you, the reader- is pros and cons of a barefoot jumper. I mean, shoes were created for a reason! Am I doing him a disservice jumping him barefoot (3'6 max) or do I need to let him tell me its ok or not ok?[red mine]

You've got the right idea. Don't let anybody con you into thinking your horse has to be sore after you pull his shoes, that's nothing but a preemptive excuse for ineptitude because whenever a horse walks off worse than he walked up, somebody did something wrong! Find a good mechanic who knows what he's doing, have him pull your horse's shoes, trim him correctly, and give barefooted jumping a shot. Your horse will tell you if he's okay with it and his opinion is the only one that counts. :)

[BornToRide]

A trim is certainly not a trim. Most farriers tend to trim too much sole and frog, do not tend to bevel the hoofwall for better breakover and to reduce leverage on the hoofwalls and tend to leave heels and toes too long.

Would be nice if all farriers would trim a barefoot balanced to internal hoof structures, with correct heel and toe length and with a good bevel but unfortunately most just trim like they normally would to set a shoe.

A horse will be successful if the owner makes all the necessary changes and supports the horse as best as possible. This means correct diet low in NSCs and with adequate minerals to support hoof health, adequate exercise to stimulate healthy hoof growth, correct trimming (balanced to internal hoof structures with correct heel and toe length) and using hoof boots if necessary.

My sister jumped her originally barefoot horse and found that he had more traction being barefoot. Then, as usual, everyone in the barn beraved her about putting shoes on. Poor horse has since been diagnosed with navicular at only 8 years old. He only wore shoes for 2 years or so. The farrier was recommended by a vet who consults owners of international show jumpers.

Best wishes :)

[Peter026]

[QUOTE=BornToRide;3737631] Most farriers tend to trim too much sole and frog, do not tend to bevel the hoofwall for better breakover and to reduce leverage on the hoofwalls and tend to leave heels and toes too long.

QUOTE]

I have never seen this in nearly 40 years as a farrier.

[JB]

I have never seen this in nearly 40 years as a farrier.

You're in the UK - we're aware things seem to be under better quality control over there :)

Over here, it is VERY common for pockets of the US to have absolutely horrendous "farriers" who do just as BTR said. I would not say "farriers tend to" do the things she said, as that is far too generalized. GOOD farriers don't. Bad ones often do. Iffy ones often do. Less than GOOD ones often do. But the bad/iffy ones are also just as likely to barely touch the foot and call it a day.

Unfortunately, the GOOD farriers seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

Just because you, or anyone else, claim to have never seen such a thing done does not mean it's not done. I promise you it IS done, sadly.

[MistyBlue]

I've also never seen it with multiple farriers in this area.
Although there's a chance it's a regional thing...some areas may not have many experienced farriers to choose from. But here where I am in CT I've never seen anything but a correct trim on a barefoot horse done by a farrier or a farrier that pushes shoes. I know most farriers around here have about a 50/50 barefoot to shod ratio on their clients.
I'm no hoof expert and usually avoid shoes vs barefoot threads like the plague...but my advice would be to try having the horse barefoot if you'd like to try it. But please remember a few things: a good farrier trims correctly for barefoot as well as shod, there are some great barefoot only trimmers out there but please make a lot of inquiries to find the good ones and make sure they've been doing it longer than a year or two and that they didn't learn from a book/video/internet. And do not listen to anyone telling you a horse transitioning to barefoot needs to be lame/sore as heck because that's certainly not true.

[Peter026]

You're in the UK - we're aware things seem to be under better quality control over there :)

Over here, it is VERY common for pockets of the US to have absolutely horrendous "farriers" who do just as BTR said. I would not say "farriers tend to" do the things she said, as that is far too generalized. GOOD farriers don't. Bad ones often do. Iffy ones often do. Less than GOOD ones often do. But the bad/iffy ones are also just as likely to barely touch the foot and call it a day.

Unfortunately, the GOOD farriers seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

Just because you, or anyone else, claim to have never seen such a thing done does not mean it's not done. I promise you it IS done, sadly.

Most of Europe as a whole is now going the UK route with proper apprenticeships and registration, Perhaps one day the U.S. will also follow this route, after all the horses well being is paramount.

[Tom Stovall]

BornToRide in gray

A trim is certainly not a trim.

Wrong! A CORRECT trim is a trim is a trim.

Most farriers tend to trim too much sole and frog

Whatever gave you such a silly idea? A correct trim is a trim is a trim.

do not tend to bevel the hoofwall for better breakover and to reduce leverage on the hoofwalls and tend to leave heels and toes too long.

That certainly has not been my experience - and my experience is numbered in tens of thousands. How about yours?

Would be nice if all farriers would trim a barefoot balanced to internal hoof structures, with correct heel and toe length and with a good bevel but unfortunately most just trim like they normally would to set a shoe.

With all due respect, you're painting farriers with too broad a brush, apparently based on barefoot bias and your painfully obvious inexperience.

A horse will be successful if the owner makes all the necessary changes and supports the horse as best as possible. This means correct diet low in NSCs and with adequate minerals to support hoof health, adequate exercise to stimulate healthy hoof growth, correct trimming (balanced to internal hoof structures with correct heel and toe length) and using hoof boots if necessary.

LMAO! Whatever its diet, the horse will be successful jumping barefooted if it doesn't need shoes in order to maintain soundness.

My sister jumped her originally barefoot horse and found that he had more traction being barefoot.

Hot diggety, I guess that settles it. On the other hand, if you ever stand by the in gate at any USEF AA, A, or B show and take careful note of the successful barefooted jumpers, you will come to realize that your sister's alleged experience is statistically irrelevant.

Then, as usual, everyone in the barn beraved her about putting shoes on.

"Beraved"? Whatever "beraved" means, how was the opinion of "everyone in the barn" relevant to your sister's choices?

Poor horse has since been diagnosed with navicular at only 8 years old.

Perhaps if your sister hadn't insisted on jumping her horse barefooted, he might not have developed a pathology affecting the navicular bone. :)

He only wore shoes for 2 years or so. The farrier was recommended by a vet who consults owners of international show jumpers.

LMAO! So what?

[Tree]

Most of Europe as a whole is now going the UK route with proper apprenticeships and registration, Perhaps one day the U.S. will also follow this route, after all the horses well being is paramount.

Hmmm, not likely. I'm not even thinking about Trimmers but Farriers. There's more than one Farrier organization....I can think of the AFA and the BWF....maybe there are more now.

The USA seems to like having multiple groups vs lumping everything into one group.

Tree

[luvs2ride79]

I went barefoot with mine and am very happy. You do need to consider the WHOLE horse, not just the feet. A successful barefoot horse is on a very natural diet, no sweet feed or feed pellets (90-95% of his diet is forage, hay or pasture), has 23 hours or more a day of turnout, and gets a lot of movement all day long. If you are unable to provide a big turnout area for your horse, or do not want him out all the time, then the transition to barefoot might take longer or he might always require hoof boots.

You should talk honestly with a barefoot trimmer about these issues before starting the transition. Barefoot is great and I wish every horse could be barefoot, but not all horses or all owners are willing and/or able to do it successfully.

It's worth a shot, but know that you may have a long transition period. It can take a year or more for a horse to fully transition to barefoot. Be prepared to be patient, and try out a variety of hoof boots with or without pads to help ease your horse's transition.

[luvs2ride79]

Tom, I feel your pain, but unfortunately, MOST farriers trim the bottom of a horse's foot flat (sole and wall the same length), for shoe or pasture trim. They don't round the edges if shoes go on, and most don't round the edge much if the horse is going barefoot. Most will trim a good deal of sole out of the bottom, barefoot or not. Many leave heels too high. All of these methods are contraindicated for a healthy, hardy performance bare foot.

I know that there are good farriers out there like yourself that read this barefoot stuff and say, "well heck, I've always done that!" Unfortunately, you are in the minority ;). I have gone through 5 farriers in the last 7 years, plus 5-6 more back in the 90s. They ALL trimmed the way I described, no matter how much training they had, journeyman or not, etc. Some trimmed/shoed better than others, but they all had the same basic technique (and yes, I watch closely ;) ).

[Tom Stovall]

Peter in gray, stuff deleted

Perhaps one day the U.S. will also follow this route, after all the horses well being is paramount.

The American Farrier Association's Certified Journeyman Farrier designation is the only American credential recognized by the UK's Farriers Registration Council. In addition to the DipWCF examination, the Farriers Registration Council also recognizes certain other qualifications as meeting the standard for registration. The approved qualifications are currently:

Examining Body Qualification
Worshipful Company of Farriers RSS (Registered Shoeing Smith) pre October 1979
The Army Class II, BII, CMF
Irish Horse Board RF (Registered Farrier)
American Farriers Association CJF (Certified Journeyman Farrier) *

* In accordance with the Act, the FRC also requires proof of two years regular and gainful engagement in shoeing horses subsequent to achievement of this qualification prior to registration. However, the WCF recognises the AFA’s CJF as equivalent to the DipWCF, and persons may apply to the WCF for an “Honorary Diploma”.

[Tom Stovall]

luvs2ride79

Tom, I feel your pain, but unfortunately, MOST farriers trim the bottom of a horse's foot flat (sole and wall the same length), for shoe or pasture trim.

I leave more exfoliating sole intact when a horse is going to be barefooted, as do most farriers in my experience.

They don't round the edges if shoes go on, and most don't round the edge much if the horse is going barefoot.

Failing to radius the wall when leaving a horse barefooted is a beginner's mistake - I've never seen an experienced farrier make that error.

Most will trim a good deal of sole out of the bottom, barefoot or not.

Not in my experience.

Many leave heels too high. All of these methods are contraindicated for a healthy, hardy performance bare foot.

LMAO! What's a "performance bare foot" and exactly how does it differ from a sedentary barefoot? The farriers I know tend to trim the individual according to its conformation and use, not a model.

I know that there are good farriers out there like yourself that read this barefoot stuff and say, "well heck, I've always done that!" Unfortunately, you are in the minority ;).

With all due respect, I don't think I'm in the minority, I'd like to think I'm pretty much typical of the race/show/performance/veterinary farriers I've been privileged to know over the last 50 years.

I have gone through 5 farriers in the last 7 years, plus 5-6 more back in the 90s. They ALL trimmed the way I described, no matter how much training they had, journeyman or not, etc. Some trimmed/shoed better than others, but they all had the same basic technique (and yes, I watch closely ;)

While I don't doubt your veracity, your experience is atypical for many folks who live in an area with a high concentration of horses - read urban/suburban population centers. In other words, it's hard to find a good farrier in Ledbetter (pop. 48) where I live, but I can kick over a rock and find a good farrier near Austin, Dallas, Ft. Worth, Houston, San Antonio, etc, because that's where the horses are. :)

[Buffyblue]

Didn't I read a lengthy discussion on the same topic last week? Or am I hallucinating?

[irishcas]

Didn't I read a lengthy discussion on the same topic last week? Or am I hallucinating?

And you decided to add to the mix because??????? Why????????

[BornToRide]

[quote=BornToRide;3737631] Most farriers tend to trim too much sole and frog, do not tend to bevel the hoofwall for better breakover and to reduce leverage on the hoofwalls and tend to leave heels and toes too long.

QUOTE]

I have never seen this in nearly 40 years as a farrier.Must be better than Germany too because the farrier who my sister used and who was recommended by a vet who takes care of international show jumpers, made her horse navicular. When she send me the photos I saw the same farrier trim issues that are so common here as well. Looking at the photos on Dr. John's website in the UK, I see similar trim problems there as well! http://www.johnthevet.com/ Seems to me that there's a lot of misguided trimming and shoeing there also.


Unfortunately, the GOOD farriers seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

Yes, that's the really mindboggling part!I just don't get it. With all their certifications they should know better , or are they essentially taught wrong??!

[luvs2ride79]

With all due respect, I don't think I'm in the minority, I'd like to think I'm pretty much typical of the race/show/performance/veterinary farriers I've been privileged to know over the last 50 years.

I have gone through 5 farriers in the last 7 years, plus 5-6 more back in the 90s. They ALL trimmed the way I described, no matter how much training they had, journeyman or not, etc. Some trimmed/shoed better than others, but they all had the same basic technique (and yes, I watch closely ;)

While I don't doubt your veracity, your experience is atypical for many folks who live in an area with a high concentration of horses - read urban/suburban population centers. In other words, it's hard to find a good farrier in Ledbetter (pop. 48) where I live, but I can kick over a rock and find a good farrier near Austin, Dallas, Ft. Worth, Houston, San Antonio, etc, because that's where the horses are. :)

I grew up in San Diego, and had my horses at some pretty horse-saturated areas (Bonsal/Fallbrook, San Marcos, and Rancho Sante Fe) I only knew one farrier like you, and I couldn't afford him, lol. All of the mid-priced farriers did pretty much the same job.

I'm in Central Arkansas now, Little Rock area. Not exactly a horse metropolis, but we do have our fair share of high dollar horses/trainers/breeders. Again, one farrier who did a decent barefoot trim, and he was too busy to take any new clients.

[rainechyldes]

@ the OP ==The answer... it depends.

I have shod and barefoot horses. Some do better in shoes, some do better barefoot.
I second the notion that please whatever you do, don't fall for the rhetoric. Avoid the fanatic fringe.

I'm not saying all barefoot people are fanatic, just like all farriers aren't 'shoe' fanatics.

Rather then going the barefoot trimmer route, I would seriously consider finding a good farrier and ask them to assess the feet, and offer opinions. I know there are many barefoot trimmers who are very educated and I'm not attempting to diss them. However I feel as a whole farriers have a higher level of knowledge in regards to assessing a horse's needs.

Course it goes without saying whomever you choose, make sure they have the right credentials.

Reason: A lot of barefoot trimmers will insist that the horse should be barefoot- and talk about transition periods,and tehe horse will be in pain for (usually an undefined period) blah blah blah. A transition period- when I hear the statement , I know I've got the wrong person working on my horse. Full stop.

In my experience, I've found farriers are a bit more objective in that regard. I've yet to ever have my farrier insist a horse needs shoes - he'll ponder, watch them move, we'll discuss what's in store for the horse. Then again, I have an excellent farrier who's very used to dealing with both my shod and unshod horses, and is very familiar with what all my horses do/don't do.

As for jumping, I have one barefoot horse who jumps, 3 ft at the moment is as high as he goes, as his main job is endurance. so he puts plenty of miles up. However he does have excellent feet, and also is very aware of his striding.

[BornToRide]

However I feel as a whole farriers have a higher level of knowledge in regards to assessing a horse's needs.

I wish this was true, but most do not. I had one case where I was called in to work on a mare who started to become difficult under saddle. When I first saw her I immediately knew what the problem was - very upright front end conformation made worse by leaving heels way too high. I suggested the horse get a better trim with lower heels and adequate toe length. The farrier wanted to argue with me about why he had trimmed her this way. Long story short, the owner got a different farrier (the only one of two local farriers whose work I like and I know the work of about 8 - 10 farriers here)who lowered her heels as needed and the under saddle issues disappeared shortly after that. Unfortunately this is not an isolated case. I really wish it was.

[rainechyldes]

I wish this was true, but most do not. I had one case where I was called in to work on a mare who started to become difficult under saddle. When I first saw her I immediately knew what the problem was - very upright front end conformation made worse by leaving heels way too high. I suggested the horse get a better trim with lower heels and adequate toe length. The farrier wanted to argue with me about why he had trimmed her this way. Long story short, the owner got a different farrier (the only one of two local farriers whose work I like and I know the work of about 8 - 10 farriers here)who lowered her heels as needed and the under saddle issues disappeared shortly after that. Unfortunately this is not an isolated case. I really wish it was.


Sorry you will never get me to agree. :) so we will have to agree to disagree. I can pull anecdote after anecdote out as well. However I can't be bothered. That's your experience. Mine is very much the opposite. I could spend all night relating horror stories of barefoot trimmers who run around this valley. And remember I own and manage barefoot and shod horses all of which compete -- so I'm not exactly clueless here.

also I'll add- every post I see of yours relating to barefoot or shoeing - you absolutely always appear to fall onto the side of the horse must be barefoot. because of (fill in the blank) That to me denotes someone I would never allow to work on my horses, because you lack objectivity.

you will also need to read more clearly when you are qouting.
I also stated to the OP - that whomever you choose(farrier or barefoot trimmer), obviously check to see that they have certification, (hopefully one that didn't come off the internet.)

[BornToRide]

I am not trying to get you to agree. I am sorry you have had so much bad experiences with barefoot trimmers. I am fortunate to know at least 5 excellent ones in our area - that's more than I can say for farriers.


also I'll add- every post I see of yours relating to barefoot or shoeing - you absolutely always appear to fall onto the side of the horse must be barefoot. because of (fill in the blank) That to me denotes someone I would never allow to work on my horses, because you lack objectivity.

Quite the contrary - it is diligent and objective observations of current misguided shoeing and trimming practices and what this does to horses' hooves that has me led to the decision that I can no longer justify using metal shoes on horses!

[rainechyldes]

I am not trying to get you to agree. I am sorry you have had so much bad experiences with barefoot trimmers. I am fortunate to know at least 5 excellent ones in our area - that's more than I can say for farriers.

Quite the contrary - it is diligent and objective observations of current misguided shoeing and trimming practices and what this does to horses' hooves that has me led to the decision that I can no longer justify using metal shoes on horses!

Mmm- yeah. Exactly. (Justify) See there's where it gets hairy for me.

If I have a hoof expert working on my horses, farrier, barefoot trimmer whichever - that word and statement would throw me into a tizzy and have my horses being removed from said person's tool range immediately.

reason: In that statement, I don't see/hear any weight being given to what is best for that particular horse. I am all about horse management. Being an endurance rider maybe I expect 'more' objectivity then the average horse owner, I don't know. But then , I find as an endurance rider, I tend to manage those horses quite differently then my son manages his pony club horse:)

I will tell my farrier exactly when/where/and terrain that my horse will be competing on all season, as I know most the competitions by heart pretty much after 20+ years, and we make judgements/decisions from there.
My horses work hard,and I want their feet maintained in whatever way is best for each individual horse. Shoes or otherwise.

[ksetrider]

Ho Hum. Barely a single word from those i was really looking for advice from- those who jump barefoot hunters. I guess that means none exist?

[Guilherme]

Ho Hum. Barely a single word from those i was really looking for advice from- those who jump barefoot hunters. I guess that means none exist?

I asked this question a while back; never did get much of an answer. :(

If you horse needs shoes, then shoe it. If it doesn't, then save the money.

Consider, too, that Ancient Wisdom that says: If it aint' broke, don't fix it.

If you horse horse is doing its job and stays sound then God Bless Both Of You. If it doesn't then maybe exploring why is a Good Thing. Beware of the "snake oil" being peddaled by "barefoot advocates."

Again, let the horse tell you if it needs shoes or not.

Good luck in your decision.

G.

[MistyBlue]

ksetrider...years ago I competed in jumpers with my mare and often she was competing barefoot. She did quite well barefoot...even with the sharper turns in jumpers as opposed to hunters that have more gradual turns on the course.
However if we were going to be doing outside courses (back then you didn't always compete in a sand ring, sometimes they thought it was funny to stick us in a field for things like Handy Hunters, LOL) or I noticed any slippage then we went back to shoes with screw ins for safer traction. I've had a horse fall on me...directly on me...due to lack of traction and it hurts like a sonofab*tch. :eek: (well, I had two horses fall on me but the other one I wasn't riding...just standing in the wrong spot) Not to mention that slipping at speeds can cause catastrophic injuries to the horses...going faster than a trot and having the legs shoot out from under the horse sideways is never a good thing.
I guess what I would do in your position is to try barefoot with your horse for a while and see how things go. Low to medium fences in groomed footing in hunters isn't overly tough on the feet usually. If it doesn;t work out (horse too sore, not enough traction, etc) then you can always go back to shoes. It isn't always necessary to use a "barefoot only" trimmer...a good farrier knows how to trim the same optimum way. But then there's no reason to avoid a barefoot only trimmer either...many are very good and not fanatics about it. Just make sure they're certified and experienced and if they start telling you metal is evil, shoes kill horses, the hooves need to be just like a mustangs or anything else that sounds off the wall then I'd be leery of them trying to convince you your horse needs to be in pain to transition.

[BornToRide]

It becomes a question of footing. If the horse is worked on unsafe footing for the task at hand and needs more traction, like grassy surfaces, then of course shoes will be put on, when in fact perhaps the horses should never be jumped on such footing!

[Tree]

It becomes a question of footing. If the horse is worked on unsafe footing for the task at hand and needs more traction, like grassy surfaces, then of course shoes will be put on, when in fact perhaps the horses should never be jumped on such footing!


Barefoot horses can have enough traction but their "natural shoe" would have to be maintained. What I mean by NS is the amount of wall (and bars) a soft terrain hoof will grow above the sole plane. I do have an example of this if anyone would like to see it.

There are trim methods which don't consider this sort of hoof form but would shape all hooves to look like wild horses that live on abrasive footing instead. The healthy soft terrain hoof model is often overlooked while the poorer examples are focused on...like the neglected bare hooves of "backyard" horses.

Tree

[JHUshoer20]

Most of Europe as a whole is now going the UK route with proper apprenticeships and registration, Perhaps one day the U.S. will also follow this route, after all the horses well being is paramount. Couldn't agree with you more. Don't think I'll live to see it though. I'm not optimistic about America going that route simply because our horse industry is very low priority for our powers that be and there is no real consensus amongst the horse owning public that such a thing is needed.

This thread is one more of many in which people will pile on about how much their shoers all stink but the silence from the UK is once again deafening. If Americans truly had a probem of crisis proportions I think they'd do something about it. For the most part is the BUA contingent desperately trying to get a foot in the door in spite of their lack of skill and qualifications. Just the same the overall situation would be improved greatly by mandatory testing and state licensing.


Reason: A lot of barefoot trimmers will insist that the horse should be barefoot- and talk about transition periods,and tehe horse will be in pain for (usually an undefined period) blah blah blah. A transition period- when I hear the statement , I know I've got the wrong person working on my horse. Full stop. Absolutely! Burn this one into your brain!:yes:

Ho Hum. Barely a single word from those i was really looking for advice from- those who jump barefoot hunters. I guess that means none exist?
It means at the very least you'll in all likelihood be at a competitive disadvantage. Those who have been competing and winning tend to know better. Try to copy the doings of winners and those who have succeeded in whatever it is that you're trying to do and your answers will become obvious.
George

[MistyBlue]

Grass can be a slippery footing at times...but that is most horses' natural or most common footing. If at all possible people who have grass have horses turned out on it. Feral horses are on grass as often as possible since it's what they eat. And grass is what domestic horses run around bucking/farting and playing on and feral horses do the same or outrun predators (real and imagined) on.
So while I wouldn't classify grass footing as the best competitive footing...it is the most natural to the horse. At least I've never seen a turnout consisting of packed drainage stone, built in drains, screenings and then either sand, rubber, leather, bluestone or a mix of any of those.
In a perfect world all horse owners, trainers, judges and the like will tailor everything towards what's 100% best for the horses. That might mean different footings and that might mean some are barefoot and some aren't still though.
But in the real world...equine sports help hold up the entire equine industry. Right down to the little backyarders...because it's all connected and insular whether we admit it or not. Equine sports also can't stay afloat without the little guys either.
And in all honesty...there's no way to determine what is best for all horses. No two horse people ever agree on a single thing. And contrary to popular belief on this BB that does not make some views wrong and others right depending on who agrees with whom. With such diverse animals/breeds/sports/care styles there is no way no how that all horses can benefit from the same ideals of a few people. We all need to come to terms that no matter how vehemently we may believe in something...it's not going to be the ideal for all horses because horses are not static identical animals in static identical settings.
And with equine sports...the vast majority of equine athletes stay healthy and comfy to an old age. Shoes or not. From all disciplines and from all sorts of footings. When we're too adamant about something we tend to only ever remember or believe in the worst cases if we think they prove our points. That doesn't make them the majority though.

[BornToRide]

And in all honesty...there's no way to determine what is best for all horses. No two horse people ever agree on a single thing. And contrary to popular belief on this BB that does not make some views wrong and others right depending on who agrees with whom. With such diverse animals/breeds/sports/care styles there is no way no how that all horses can benefit from the same ideals of a few people. We all need to come to terms that no matter how vehemently we may believe in something...it's not going to be the ideal for all horses because horses are not static identical animals in static identical settings.

That's absolutely no problem as long as people are willing to honestly deal with the possible consequences and if they can live with the outcome. As a animal owner, you become responsible for its well-being and what you do to an animal!

Whenever animals are pushed for human satisfaction (I'm talking serious competition here), they tend to suffer in some way. I personally could not justify going there.


Barefoot horses can have enough traction but their "natural shoe" would have to be maintained. What I mean by NS is the amount of wall (and bars) a soft terrain hoof will grow above the sole plane. I do have an example of this if anyone would like to see it.

I would agree with that as well.

[KatieD]

ksetrider - I think your question has probably already been answered, looking at the posts, but I'll put my 2 cents in anyway.:D

One of the barns I've worked at in the past had hunters that were shown regularly with no shoes, ever. If a horses hooves were not doing that great, their response was not to put on shoes, but to pull the horse out of showing and figure out what the problem was. In their case, they seemed to find the solution through good managment(feed, pasture conditions etc.) and proper trimming.

Most of the barns I've been in do shoe their horses though. I think part of it is just tradition..some people will look at your crazy if you consider working your horse hard at all without shoes!! I think that opinion is ridiculous of course..but I am not 'anti shoe'. I put shoes on my TB gelding when I first got him 9 years ago, to help him grow out some major cracks...it worked, I took the shoes off, he has had good feet ever since.

If you are worried about whether it has been done - it absolutely has, with good results. Just not for everyone or every horse.

I agree with those that say that if the horse needs shoes, put them on. If they don't, don't. I would rather not fuss with shoes if I don't have to, but if the horse has a particular condition that needs shoes, put them on.

As far as it having an effect on your jumping...I absolutely think that is decided on a horse by horse basis. If you want to go barefoot, do it. See how your horse does. Just be prepared to perhaps put them back on if he does not respond well.

[Tree]

Grass can be a slippery footing at times...but that is most horses' natural or most common footing.

It's seems to me that horses that have been allowed to be horses learn how to navigate grassy surfaces, under most conditions. It's when they aren't allowed to be horses that they may be at a disadvantage due to the lack of experience. Oh and I should add, horses with cabin fever compared to those who are out 24/7 no matter what.

And then the other thing would be adding a rider. No, not just the additional weight for the horse to carry but having to do with whose making the decisions as to how something will be approached. The horse may know what to do but if the rider feels they know better, then the horse will have to go along with their wishes or be willful and take over just to save themselves AND the rider. ;)

Shoes can be a double edged sword. If riders are going to ask for the insane options that horses wouldn't have done if left to their own, then shoes may keep those riders safer but what price the horse? There is such a thing as too much traction which results in injuries to the horses, mild and/or severe. Sometimes I wonder about the percentage of injuries being caused by the horses and those that are man-made (gender neutral meaning).

Tree

[RHdobes563]

I've never felt that I had to go to different practioners to leave a horse barefoot or to shoe a horse. Everyone I have had in the last 30+ years has had to be able to do both satisfactory.

My long-time (next to last) blacksmith shod my Thoroughbred gelding and (barefoot) trimmed my retired Morgan mare. Nothing different was done to them in the BASICS. One HAD to have shoes because of the gravel roads we had to ride on and his OTTB feet. My mare, being retired, only needed 'hoof maintenance' due to not being ridden anymore and having 'hooves of iron.' My blacksmith did backyard horses, Arabian show horses, hunter/jumpers, Friesians, Quarter Horses, etc. and could pick and choose his clients. (It took quite a bit to p*ss him off, but if you did...) He refused to do the Thoroughbreds at the local racetrack but that had more to do with the trainers than the horses. (He REALLY liked my OTTB.)

He would still be my blacksmith (he preferred being called that to "farrier") if he had not been in a serious car accident and had to retire from horseshoeing (his SIDE job). My "new" farrier is an old timer, and I am keeping my "new" Morgan barefooted currently. (New boarding barn has lots of trails, no gravel roads, and it's winter, for God's sake!) IF I determine that "Blue" needs shoes later, he will be shod.

I have forgotten how many blacksmiths/farriers I have used over the years. I've never had any that stated they couldn't do both or preferred to do one or the other. And in all the times I've had horses, I've only "fired" one. NOT for what he did to my horse (he did an excellent job on my mare), but he had a serious meltdown and seriously (and we believe, deliberately) lamed my cousin's gelding. We never called him again.

I would want any blacksmith, farrier, or horseshoer I use to be capable of doing both.

[JHUshoer20]

Whenever animals are pushed for human satisfaction (I'm talking serious competition here), they tend to suffer in some way. I personally could not justify going there.
Care to expound on that a little further? Are you now discouraging the use of horses for competitive endeavours?


I would want any blacksmith, farrier, or horseshoer I use to be capable of doing both. Never thought it would come to this but it seems the TSS as Rick calls it has set in the horse industry so well that it bears repeating for the umpteenth time:

Barefoot trimming is apprentice work. It is kindergardenish to any qualified horseshoer. It is not a specialty but is beginner level work. Any blacksmith or horseshoer will most assuredly be able to do both:yes:
George

[decorum]

Barefoot trimming is apprentice work. It is kindergardenish to any qualified horseshoer. It is not a specialty but is beginner level work. Any blacksmith or horseshoer will most assuredly be able to do both:yes:
George

What if someone really does want to stay bare but needs hoof protection? Are you a boot dealer? Are you familiar with the different brands and kinds? Can you fit them and advise the client? If not then you aren't the same level of trimmer as us crazy barefooters. You only have one option for bare instead of many.

I was a shoer so I do understand where you are coming from but I think that I am not a kindergarten level trimmer. You may think what you want, however. ;) I do respect you and your posts, BTW.

Ann Szolas

[JHUshoer20]

What if someone really does want to stay bare but needs hoof protection? Then I'd recommend shoes. Whether or not it's possible to stay bare is determined by the poor beast and his use more than what the owner wants or would like. Are you a boot dealer? No. Are you familiar with the different brands and kinds? Can you fit them and advise the client? If not then you aren't the same level of trimmer as us crazy barefooters. You only have one option for bare instead of many. Booties are an ok spare tire. I've advised people to keep one in their saddle bag during a trail ride or whatever. They are not an acceptable alternative to shoeing for many reasons which have been discussed on here previously ad nauseum.
George

[Hey Blondie the horse]

Horses are born barefoot..shoes are a MAN MADE issue. I have ridden my barefoot horses in AZ where rocky hard soil is the norm and never shod a horse there. Horses will toughen their soles just like people who go barefoot alot get tough to being barefoot. Only time shoes are necessary to ME, when they have foundered, had huge absess issues to HEAL, Shoes are not a permanent solution to me.

[MistyBlue]

Would it be off the wall to see if folks on here can use phrases like "most are bad" in general terms? Some newer owners or re-riders who've been out of horses for a long time may assume that *all* farriers/trimmers/whatever are horrible with sentences phrased like that. Is it possible to add caveats such as "Most where I live" or "most that I've met." ?

[JHUshoer20]

Horses are born barefoot..shoes are a MAN MADE issue. True. along with saddles, bits, bridles, harnesses, wagons and any other thing that makes them useful to humans. I have ridden my barefoot horses in AZ where rocky hard soil is the norm and never shod a horse there. How many miles a week? Bet you didn't work them very hard.:no: Horses will toughen their soles just like people who go barefoot alot get tough to being barefoot. Not at all. Sorry to bust your bubble but workload has no bearing upon that. Only time shoes are necessary to ME, when they have foundered, Why? had huge absess issues to HEAL, Why? Both of these examples are of things that can and often are treated without shoes. Why you think them necessary for these maladies? Shoes are not a permanent solution to me. Bet you wear them every day yourself though:winkgrin:
George

[decorum]

No. Booties are an ok spare tire. I've advised people to keep one in their saddle bag during a trail ride or whatever.
George

I used to keep one in my saddlebag all the time when I was a shoer too. Now I don't need to.:)

[JHUshoer20]

I used to keep one in my saddlebag all the time when I was a shoer too. Now I don't need to.:)
Well what can I say, maybe if you would have found a competent shoer back then you wouldn't have had to worry about it.:lol:
George

[decorum]

Well what can I say, maybe if you would have found a competent shoer back then you wouldn't have had to worry about it.:lol:
George

Now that was just plain not nice, George. lol I'll assume you are just teasing. :lol:

Ann Szolas

[Tree]

Would it be off the wall to see if folks on here can use phrases like "most are bad" in general terms? Some newer owners or re-riders who've been out of horses for a long time may assume that *all* farriers/trimmers/whatever are horrible with sentences phrased like that. Is it possible to add caveats such as "Most where I live" or "most that I've met." ?

Surely they're (readers) are not THAT naive. ;) Of course, it took me some time to realize that not all professionals (of any sort) necessarily know what they are talking about or doing. :D

So, buyer beware, reader beware, take what you read with a grain of salt, don't believe everything you read or hear. It's a good idea to question authority....often (easiest to do when you have more experiences to compare things to)! :winkgrin:

Tree