Vitamin supplements needed?

[eventer_mi]

I have a 9 yr old Paint that lives on air. He is out on pasture right now, and while it's huge, there doesn't seem to be much green out there (other than the onion-grass - yuck) but he's obviously getting SOMETHING off it as he is on practically no grain and he gets no hay.

He gets about a handful of Triple Crown Senior twice a day, and that's it. No hay, no other grain. And he looks fantastic. However, I use him for lower-level eventing and dressage, and I was wondering if he needed to be given any sort of vitamin supplement as he apparently exists off of air.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

[craz4crtrs]

Depending where you live, I feed Millenium Gold. Very good product. You could feed Sho Glo, I never have, but I know people that do.

You could do something like Purina Born to Win or Natures Essentials. 1# a day. Other brands have something similar where you don't have to feed 5-10# a day for full vitamins.

Millenium Gold with your handful of feed would work well.

[HoofHeartSoul]

I have a 9 yr old Paint that lives on air. He is out on pasture right now, and while it's huge, there doesn't seem to be much green out there (other than the onion-grass - yuck) but he's obviously getting SOMETHING off it as he is on practically no grain and he gets no hay.

He gets about a handful of Triple Crown Senior twice a day, and that's it. No hay, no other grain. And he looks fantastic. However, I use him for lower-level eventing and dressage, and I was wondering if he needed to be given any sort of vitamin supplement as he apparently exists off of air.

Thoughts? Suggestions?


weren't they doing a study on horses eating wild inions and it causing them to have heinz body anemia? i would be worried if he is eating those wild onions.

now to your question:

if your doing lower level eventing and dressage he definatly needs a ration balancer or multi-vitamin since most of our soils and grasses are depleted in minerals and vitamins.

if it were my horse and was only a handful of grain (most if not all of the commercial grain you MUST feed the reccommended amount usually above 5lbs daily to get the requirement of minerals and vitamins.

since that OBVIOUSLY isnt going to work because your horse would be WAY WAY fat.

i would get a ration balancer which is low calorie but gives him all of his mineral and vitamins and you only have to feed a small amount (1-2 lbs daily) i personally don't like purina, i like Progressive grass balancer or Gro'n win by buckeye. but if purina is the only one you can get i would get it.

if that even gets him too fat you could try a multi-vitamin like Accel or Platinum performance.

if he is still too fat he might need to be brought into a dry lot for part of the day or wear a grazing muzzle.

i would also check out if he is really eating those onions. and if there is enough actual GRASS to sustain him out there.

:winkgrin:

[jackalini]

I was just wondering the same thing on my mare. I have a 6 year old who is out on 15 acres, but there's not a ton of green right now (rain, PLEASE!). She gets maybe 2 pounds of Safechoice twice a day, and really, she's doing well on it, condition wise. I was also wondering if she was getting what she needed from her diet.

I have to imagine, however, that she is eating much more forage/grass than I must think, as she did used to be on a normal amount of grain and hay prior to moving to North Texas.

Thanks for the info.

[Simkie]

If you're feeding that little grain, I'd switch to TC 30%, which is designed to be fed at a rate of 1-2 lbs a day.

[deltawave]

Depends on what he's getting in the forage. If the pasture and little bit of grain is meeting all his needs, then you probably don't need to add anything. You can get the forage analyzed just like hay.

Alternatively, a good multivitamin/mineral supplement probably won't do any harm. I'm partial to Accel, Select, and Winners' Daily. I've used them all--Accel is by far the most palatable according to my herd. :)

[Daydream Believer]

I disagree that soils are depleted per se...a myth. Take Dr. Kellon's NRC course and you will learn that is not really so. There is no way to know what he might be missing without an analysis of his diet, hay, forage, etc.. and don't assume he is missing something just because he's not on a heavily fortified feed or supplement. Will it hurt him to have one? Probably not.

I also 100% disagree on feeding an air fern a ration balancer. Do a search on the soy discussion threads and you'll see it was a total disaster for me with my horses this summer that tend to be easy keepers. I would rather see a horse like this on a forage only diet...say a few alf. or hay pellets, good hay, and a comprehensive vit/min. supplement like Accel or several other good ones than a feed with 30% protein that he does not need and a $30 a bag cost at that.

I would not see any harm in TC 12% IF he's not sensitive to the soy. No way to tell without trying it though and I'm in the don't fix it if it ain't broke category and if he's fine as he is, I'd hesitate to monkey around.

[HoofHeartSoul]

I disagree that soils are depleted per se...a myth. Take Dr. Kellon's NRC course and you will learn that is not really so. There is no way to know what he might be missing without an analysis of his diet, hay, forage, etc.. and don't assume he is missing something just because he's not on a heavily fortified feed or supplement. Will it hurt him to have one? Probably not.

I also 100% disagree on feeding an air fern a ration balancer. Do a search on the soy discussion threads and you'll see it was a total disaster for me with my horses this summer that tend to be easy keepers. I would rather see a horse like this on a forage only diet...say a few alf. or hay pellets, good hay, and a comprehensive vit/min. supplement like Accel or several other good ones than a feed with 30% protein that he does not need and a $30 a bag cost at that.

I would not see any harm in TC 12% IF he's not sensitive to the soy. No way to tell without trying it though and I'm in the don't fix it if it ain't broke category and if he's fine as he is, I'd hesitate to monkey around.

you have a right to disagree.

however
you'll see i said if that makes him too fat you can just go with a multi-vitamin like accel or platnimum performance. ration balancers are around 1300 calories per pound. TC senior is around 1800/lb (can't remember).

we have several easy keepers on pasture board where i am boarding (morgans) and they get worked moderately everyday.they recieve a ration balancer (1lb daily) and look better than they were befroe and they looked pretty good before.

also you have to take into account that the protein he is getting is diluted by how much grass/onions grass? he is eating. he might be getting enough protein but just because it says 14% on the bag or 9% on the analysis doesn't mean it is all digestable protein . so we don't know if he really needs more protein in the diet or not. it is the QAULITY of the protein not the amount. she said the pasture was getting a bit brown and mostly onion grass.

she can have an analysis done on his diet, but take into account how much of it is undigestable.

also about YOUR horse being fat on the ration balancer what kind? what brand name? not all brands are the same and certainly not all horses. that is like saying: why should this town build a pool? i don't swim.

i'm in the catch it before it breaks category and the if it looks like it is about to break , fix it! :P

you can get a blood test to see if he is low in anything also, and to see if the onion grass (if he is eating it) is causing any problems. you get a 2 for 1 :)

[Daydream Believer]

Protein isn't a % of the diet..it is measured in grams. Percentage is meaningless. Take Dr. Kellon's course if you don't believe me. I have little doubt that a mature horse of his age eating pasture, hay and grain is having his crude protein needs met. He **Might** be short on his amino acids...and a good supplement would help that. Again, without an analysis of what he's eating, you won't know that.

I did analyze my feed..my hay, my water, my "grain" of alf. pellets, and oats (that I feed if needed) and guess what? I can meet every single horse's needs for amino acids/protein on my farm EXCEPT a lactating mare on that diet....and that was only on Lysine...not total crude protein..quality protein if you will. That includes WB boarders I have here also figured on a mature weight of 1200 lbs. A RB was serious overkill yet it is marketed as perfect for easy keepers. Believe the marketing hype if you chose to but feeding horses is not that mysterious or complicated that you need a $30 bag of feed to do it right.

My advice to the OP stands..if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Daydream Believer]

also about YOUR horse being fat on the ration balancer what kind? what brand name? not all brands are the same and certainly not all horses. that is like saying: why should this town build a pool? i don't swim.

Do a search on soy and you'll have your answer. ;)

[HoofHeartSoul]

Protein isn't a % of the diet..it is measured in grams. Percentage is meaningless. Take Dr. Kellon's course if you don't believe me. I have little doubt that a mature horse of his age eating pasture, hay and grain is having his crude protein needs met. He **Might** be short on his amino acids...and a good supplement would help that. Again, without an analysis of what he's eating, you won't know that.

I did analyze my feed..my hay, my water, my "grain" of alf. pellets, and oats (that I feed if needed) and guess what? I can meet every single horse's needs for amino acids/protein on my farm EXCEPT a lactating mare on that diet....and that was only on Lysine...not total crude protein..quality protein if you will. That includes WB boarders I have here also figured on a mature weight of 1200 lbs. A RB was serious overkill yet it is marketed as perfect for easy keepers. Believe the marketing hype if you chose to but feeding horses is not that mysterious or complicated that you need a $30 bag of feed to do it right.

My advice to the OP stands..if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I agree about the amino acids, since protein IS one long chain made up of amino acids with peptide bonds. since the first limiting amino acid is LYSINE , if you don't have enough of lysine the other amino acids will not me made and utilized.

when i said get the diet analyzed i meant the OP not you , i have no doubt that you most likely have all your protein/amino acid needs met, by adding the alfalafa pellets and "oats if needed" but if THIS horse is getting fat with no hay, i am pretty sure if you added alfalfa pellets he would get fatter. the amino acids are going ot be met but at a cost of more obesity.

also as to the cost of 1 bag a Ration Balancer about 30$ i would be spending about that on 1 bag of alfalfa pellets and 1 bag oats. so the price isn't much of a diffence.

I don't believe in taking one person Dr Kellon's information and wisdom ( she is a very knowledgable nutritionist and i have several books by her) as the ONLY TRUE WAY. i believe in studying everyones philosophy and sorting through and double checking.

to the OP: if in doubt get his diet analyzed and blood test. if you are confused and don't know what to believe ,it seems we both agree that feeding a multi vitamin like accel won't hurt. . so that is a good place to start.:D you can also add Tri-Amino by uckele to make sure you have enough amino acids in the diet if you don't want to use a ration balancer.

[jaimebaker]

Do a search on soy and you'll have your answer. ;)

Yep. I also pulled my horses off of the RB because of soy being a first ingredient and because I was having some 'unexplained' issues. I've got 2 mares that are having drastic changes since coming off the soy. I've got 4 others that I haven't seen a whole lot of change in but it's only been a month (and they may not have been sensitive to soy in the first place). The drastic changes noted in my mares are enough to keep my horses off soy for good. So, anytime a ration balancer is suggested it's always good to note that most RBs have a lot of soy in them and some horses (not all) might be sensitive to it.

Oh, and it wasn't the same brand Daydream was using. Soy is soy (though amounts and parts may vary of course, hulls, meal, oil, etc). If people are allergic to soy, it's not generally 'brand' dependent. Just like people allergic to shrimp or peanuts.

[deltawave]

If you "do a search" you will also find that there are lots of us that use ration balancers and soy products with no difficulties whatsoever. :)

[HoofHeartSoul]

Do a search on soy and you'll have your answer. ;)


I now remember that article, and i remember considering taking my horse off of the ration balancer because it was soy based.

but it wasn't broke, so i didn't fix it :)

[jaimebaker]

If you "do a search" you will also find that there are lots of us that use ration balancers and soy products with no difficulties whatsoever. :)

Yep, and nobody said all horses had problems with soy. At least, I didn't see anybody post that. Maybe I missed it. I, myself, even said I wasn't noting changes in several of mine but was in others. Some can handle it, some can't. But folks think ration balancers are the answer for everything and often times, they aren't.

[Daydream Believer]

If you "do a search" you will also find that there are lots of us that use ration balancers and soy products with no difficulties whatsoever. :)

I think she said that didn't she? I never claimed all horses had problems but about 40 % of the horses on the RB on my farm did to include a couple of WB's who could not be more unrelated to my own horses.

I think as many people on this forum who have had positive results taking their horses off soy based feed pretty much proves that something is going on with it. There seems to be a lot of "sensitive" horses...and that is NOT something the companies marketing these feeds will warn you about or even acknowledge.

[Daydream Believer]

I now remember that article, and i remember considering taking my horse off of the ration balancer because it was soy based.

but it wasn't broke, so i didn't fix it :)

Glad it's working for you. Truly I am...but I'm very cautious now after what happened on my farm last summer. I had a lot of horses with negative results.

[Melyni]

Some horses are sensitive to high protein levels, esp low quality proteins such as SBM and or alfalfa.
I suspect that it is because with all those unusable amino-acids being deaminated in the liver the urea level goes up. Nutritionists know well from cattle nutrition that very high levels of urea makes the cattle 'angry', I suspect the same happens in horses, at least in some horses. Thus giving a smaller amount of a higher quality protein (one that more closely meets the amino-acid requirements) is more efficient and better for the animals, esp those that react to Soy or Alfalfa.
But not all horses react the same, so one persons idea of the perfect diet will not be anothers.
MW

[Daydream Believer]

Some horses are sensitive to high protein levels, esp low quality proteins such as SBM and or alfalfa.
I suspect that it is because with all those unusable amino-acids being deaminated in the liver the urea level goes up. Nutritionists know well from cattle nutrition that very high levels of urea makes the cattle 'angry', I suspect the same happens in horses, at least in some horses. Thus giving a smaller amount of a higher quality protein (one that more closely meets the amino-acid requirements) is more efficient and better for the animals, esp those that react to Soy or Alfalfa.
But not all horses react the same, so one persons idea of the perfect diet will not be anothers.
MW

Melyni, that is very interesting. I find that you state that low quality proteins such as those in alfalfa and soy bean meal may be a problem. I'm curious that you call those low quality proteins. Can you elaborate?

Also, what do you consider a higher quality protein source in this case? Flax?

Thanks!

On a side note...I am feeding a couple lbs of alfalfa pellets daily to my soy sensitive horses a day and have not had any sign of trouble like I had earlier this year. Temperaments are level and normal, weight is stable and no cresty necks or IR related issues. It would seem that a sensitivity to one does not seem related to the other? I think alfalfa pellets have a bit less protein also than SBM don't they?

[Melyni]

Melyni, that is very interesting. I find that you state that low quality proteins such as those in alfalfa and soy bean meal may be a problem. I'm curious that you call those low quality proteins. Can you elaborate?

Also, what do you consider a higher quality protein source in this case? Flax?

Thanks!

On a side note...I am feeding a couple lbs of alfalfa pellets daily to my soy sensitive horses a day and have not had any sign of trouble like I had earlier this year. Temperaments are level and normal, weight is stable and no cresty necks or IR related issues. It would seem that a sensitivity to one does not seem related to the other? I think alfalfa pellets have a bit less protein also than SBM don't they?


Protein quality is a measure of how closely the amino-acid content matches the amino-acid needs of the animal. It mostly concerns the levels of essential amino-acids. The terms used vary a bit, it is sometimes called Biological value or other terms. Generally egg whites are considered the highest in BV or protein quality and given an arbitrary value of 100, all other proteins are then compared to egg whites and given a value accordingly.
The trouble is different species have different amino-acid requirements. EG Taurine is an essential aa for cats, but not for dogs or humans or horses. So it is very hard to build an overall table.

Generally SBM and Alfalfa score 60-70 on the table, they are lacking a number of essential amino-acids, most notably the sulphur containing aas and lysine.
Horses are vegetarians, and should preferentially be fed plant sources, but There are very few plant proteins that rank higher than 80. Mixing different sources of plant proteins is one way to get a better mix of aas. But for a really efficient way to raise BV, either use an animal source such as egg whites or whey protein OR best of all, add in the individual aas that are missing.

I prefer to add in the missing aas so that the overall BV of the protein is raised and the animal can use all of it. If you are using LinPro it has a lot of the missing essential aas, as an individual aa not in a protein chain, which makes it easier to digest and absorb them, thus horses getting LinPro won't react as much to the alfalfa since they can utilise more of the protein in the alfalfa since they are getting essential amino-acids.

I hope this makes sense.
Yours
MW

[Daydream Believer]

That makes a lot of sense Melnyi and thanks! Is it the flax in the Lin Pro that make the difference?

[Melyni]

That makes a lot of sense Melnyi and thanks! Is it the flax in the Lin Pro that make the difference?

No it's the amino-acids that I add.
MW