Natural vs Regular Barefoot Trim [Archive]

JHUshoer20

Dec. 17, 2008, 05:47 PM

What is the difference between a "natural" barefoot trim and a regular trim by a farrier? What's so great about the natural trim? A matter of BS marketing and sophistry. Barefoot trimming if properly done will have a radiused edge around the outer wall of about 45 degrees to prevent chipping and breaking. Oftentimes depending on environment we like to leave some dead sole on the foot as well.

Shoe prep trimming doesnt radius the edge and dead exfoliating sole is usually cleaned out.

A good trim is a good trim right, or is there some magical difference between the two? Precisely. Good is good and bad is bad. Forget about designer labels. Is slick marketing hype meant to fleece the gullible.

Question for the OP. Why do you ask this? To be amused at the free for all it will cause? Tell the truth now:D

p.s. I searched for similar topics on this but couldn't find any ...
That I find difficult to believe to say the least:rolleyes:
George

JHUshoer20

Dec. 17, 2008, 05:48 PM

I hear the train a'comin'...

..it's rollin 'round the bend...

:eek::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: Me too!

Aristeia

Dec. 17, 2008, 06:01 PM

Question for the OP. Why do you ask this? To be amused at the free for all it will cause? Tell the truth now:D

haha no I'm really not hoping for controversy here. I've just been speaking to someone where I board who is a "natural" barefoot trimmer. She thinks that my horse could benefit from it over my regular farrier's trim. I happen to like my current farrier and am happy with the job he's doing. But I was wondering what the big difference is ... ideally from people neutral, or at least accepting, of both sides.

And I did do a search, maybe with not the right search terms (?) and all I got was barefoot vs shod stuff and other bickering I'm not interested in.

An please don't turn this into a thread of arguing over which is the best, I'm just interested in what the difference is between the two! :cool:

sublimequine

Dec. 17, 2008, 06:04 PM

irishcas

Dec. 17, 2008, 06:28 PM

That I find difficult to believe to say the least:rolleyes:
George

I just did a search and found at least 3 threads on this grumpy subject. For starters OP, go read the thread that got closed last Friday night, titled Bare vs. Shod.... Have fun it's over 24 pages.

And I'm not jumping in on this game, have fun.... I'm busy chasing after Tree constantly, it's exhausting. She must have whinged to the Mod's cuz I've been told I can't call her my favorite nickname anymore, nor can I accuse her of laming horses :sigh: Now where is the fun in that..... Oh yeah, it's hard not to talk with out cursing either :D

Oh well I'll follow the rules cuz poking at Tree is better than nothing, even if I have to play by the rules.

Anyway, back to the bashing that is sure to ensue, on this tired tired Ole Subject....

tkhawk

Dec. 17, 2008, 06:31 PM

I hear the train a'comin'...

..it's rollin 'round the bend...

:eek::lol::lol:

:lol::winkgrin::):D

webmistress32

Dec. 17, 2008, 06:32 PM

OH PLEASE MAKE IT STOP - ANYONE ? ANYONE ? ANYONE ?

sublimequine

Dec. 17, 2008, 06:33 PM

I just did a search and found at least 3 threads on this grumpy subject. For starters OP, go read the thread that got closed last Friday night, titled Bare vs. Shod.... Have fun it's over 24 pages.

And I'm not jumping in on this game, have fun.... I'm busy chasing after Tree constantly, it's exhausting. She must have whinged to the Mod's cuz I've been told I can't call her my favorite nickname anymore, nor can I accuse her of laming horses :sigh: Now where is the fun in that..... Oh yeah, it's hard not to talk with out cursing either :D

Oh well I'll follow the rules cuz poking at Tree is better than nothing, even if I have to play by the rules.

Anyway, back to the bashing that is sure to ensue, on this tired tired Ole Subject....

Good point. OP, stay away from basically anything the user mentioned in bold says. The things she's done.. oh my. :no:

irishcas

Dec. 17, 2008, 06:37 PM

haha no I'm really not hoping for controversy here. I've just been speaking to someone where I board who is a "natural" barefoot trimmer. She thinks that my horse could benefit from it over my regular farrier's trim. I happen to like my current farrier and am happy with the job he's doing. But I was wondering what the big difference is ... ideally from people neutral, or at least accepting, of both sides.

Okay I can't stay out of this, I just can't. There is no such thing as Natural anything when it comes to horses. Of course we should try to mimick a species specific diet as much as possible and their feet should be as healthy as possible. Many use the Wild Mustang as a guide, study to find what should be the "Most Healthy"

What I would do is look at the following sites:

www.ironfreehoof.com
www.healthyhoof.com
www.barefoothorse.com
www.hoofrehab.com
www.hopeforsoundness.com

Start to learn what a "healthy hoof" is. BTW, I'd include farrier sites if I knew of any that were worth mentioning. They could be out there, I just don't know about them.

Then ask the "Natural Barefoot Trimmer" to show you her work, not just her horse but a number of her clients. I NEVER approach someone and tell them my way is better. That just reeks of fanaticism and new found "religion"

This person may be a better hoofcare provider than your farrier, but that is your job to figure out.

If you feel seriously brave, get photos of your horses feet and show them to us and all who care to do so will give our open, kind, honest opinion. Well Jaye not be so kind and of course Tree will point out how the bars are bad bad bad and impacted. ooo But I digress.

One thing about photos, those of us who are good and wise realize that photos are just a moment in time. So we keep that in mind when advising.

Enjoy.

Aristeia

Dec. 17, 2008, 06:50 PM

Well I didn't look at the barefoot vs shod threads because I'm not interested in that! I didn't make this thread to know whether it's better for a horse to be barefoot or wear shoes.

All I want to know is what the difference is between a natural trim and a regular trim (besides the name)! If it's all just a BS marketing scheme, that's all I wanted to know. Just give it to me straight!

I was hoping this thread could be civil. I don't post too often, but have been around on these boards for several years, to know never to do a barefoot vs shod thread but didn't realize this was in the same category.

webmistress32

Dec. 17, 2008, 06:53 PM

see - claws are out already.

can we please kill the character assassinations?

remember what you say about Paula says a lot more about you than it says about Paula.

p.s. for the record my position: no, they are not the same it's not a BS marketing gimmick. but, let the games begin ...

Peter026

Dec. 17, 2008, 06:59 PM

If it ain't broke why "fix" it. If the horse is sound and doing what you want it to do quite happily, why change?

Aristeia

Dec. 17, 2008, 07:03 PM

Then ask the "Natural Barefoot Trimmer" to show you her work, not just her horse but a number of her clients. I NEVER approach someone and tell them my way is better. That just reeks of fanaticism and new found "religion"

This person may be a better hoofcare provider than your farrier, but that is your job to figure out.

If you feel seriously brave, get photos of your horses feet and show them to us and all who care to do so will give our open, kind, honest opinion. Well Jaye not be so kind and of course Tree will point out how the bars are bad bad bad and impacted. ooo But I digress.

One thing about photos, those of us who are good and wise realize that photos are just a moment in time. So we keep that in mind when advising.

Enjoy.

I'm not going to post any photos of my horse's feet on here (had a bad experience the last time I did ...). He just had his shoes (wedges and eggbars - he has navicular) taken off a week ago, so his heels are under-run. I don't think it would be fair to post a picture of his hooves like that, before his heels decontract (is that the right word??). His hooves are in pretty good condition. He's never been barefoot before and is holding up quite well given that the ground is frozen and hard. He's not any lamer than he was when he had the shoes on.

The natural trimmer has looked at his feet and said they they actually looked pretty good.

LMH

Dec. 17, 2008, 07:14 PM

FWIW I do not think there SHOULD be a difference but in the real world there often is.

That is all I am going to say about that.

irishcas

Dec. 17, 2008, 07:15 PM

see - claws are out already.

No they are not!

webmistress32

Dec. 17, 2008, 07:15 PM

great article in last months' Practical Horseman about navicular. or was it Equus?

webmistress32

Dec. 17, 2008, 07:16 PM

claws = "stay away from basically anything the user mentioned in bold says"

character assassinations = bad.

irishcas

Dec. 17, 2008, 07:19 PM

I'm not going to post any photos of my horse's feet on here (had a bad experience the last time I did ...). He just had his shoes (wedges and eggbars - he has navicular) taken off a week ago, so his heels are under-run. I don't think it would be fair to post a picture of his hooves like that, before his heels decontract (is that the right word??). His hooves are in pretty good condition. He's never been barefoot before and is holding up quite well given that the ground is frozen and hard. He's not any lamer than he was when he had the shoes on.

The natural trimmer has looked at his feet and said they they actually looked pretty good.

Wellllll, heels don't de-contract over night, I've find it takes quite some time ;)

Don't let one bad experience ruin your whole outlook. I personally love showing pix and like what conversations ensue, for me it's usually a learning experience.

And while I have to come to care for George just a bit, I have to disagree that there is no difference between what I see as farrier barefoot trims and some of the barefoot trims. What I do agree with George and the others is that a Good/Correct trim is nothing more and nothing less, than a Good, Correct Trim!

Sadly there are a lot of poor practitioners out there. Now with that said, if you farrier has been your farrier for years and your horse has wicked contraction, then I would question his/her skills.

Please be brave and share pix...

JHUshoer20

Dec. 17, 2008, 07:19 PM

Then ask the "Natural Barefoot Trimmer" to show you her work, not just her horse but a number of her clients. I NEVER approach someone and tell them my way is better. That just reeks of fanaticism and new found "religion"
Not to mention a lack of professionalism. Blatant and outright soliciting for work by a shoer or trimmer is a sure sign of somebody who sucks. You call professionals they don't call you. Remember that:winkgrin:

All I want to know is what the difference is between a natural trim and a regular trim (besides the name)! If it's all just a BS marketing scheme, that's all I wanted to know. Just give it to me straight! Thats as straight as it gets. No need of further discussion. I guess a real true natural trim could be defined as none at all. Let them break off naturally like in the wild. When horse goes lame he becomes lion bait. Most don't want to be THAT natural. Horses tend to have a much better life in our corrals and barns:)

If it ain't broke why "fix" it. If the horse is sound and doing what you want it to do quite happily, why change?
Because some BUA beeotch trashed her horseshoer. Now she's starting to wonder:mad:
George

irishcas

Dec. 17, 2008, 07:23 PM

claws = "stay away from basically anything the user mentioned in bold says"

character assassinations = bad.

Well Webmistress, if I found that drinking Coca Cola does harm to you and then I warn people to not drink Coca Cola, how is that bad.

Have you looked at these photos? http://s106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/barefoottree/ Please let me know what YOU find right with them.

I don't believe there is anything wrong with warning someone away from someone else's services.

If I know someone who used a plumber who destroyed her bathroom and kitchen. Is it bad for me to tell a third party that so and so is a danger, watch out for them?

No it isn't. I'm not badmouthing the person, just her wares. Big difference! So no claws are out, just warning against what I consider - dangerous and harmful procedures practiced by someone

JHUshoer20

Dec. 17, 2008, 07:29 PM

Well Webmistress, if I found that drinking Coca Cola does harm to you and then I warn people to not drink Coca Cola, how is that bad.

Have you looked at these photos? http://s106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/barefoottree/ Please let me know what YOU find right with them.

I don't believe there is anything wrong with warning someone away from someone else's services.

If I know someone who used a plumber who destroyed her bathroom and kitchen. Is it bad for me to tell a third party that so and so is a danger, watch out for them?

No it isn't. I'm not badmouthing the person, just her wares. Big difference! So no claws are out, just warning against what I consider - dangerous and harmful procedures practiced by someone
ROTFLMYAO!
Far be it from a woman to be one to harp incessantly about something:lol:
George

Rick Burten

Dec. 17, 2008, 07:31 PM

All I want to know is what the difference is between a natural trim and a regular trim (besides the name)!

Nada, zero, zip, nothing.

If it's all just a BS marketing scheme, that's all I wanted to know. Just give it to me straight!

Its a BS marketing scheme.

Hope that that is straight and plain enough. :)

irishcas

Dec. 17, 2008, 07:31 PM

ROTFLMYAO!
Far be it from a woman to be one to harp incessantly about something:lol:
George

Okay smart alec... what would you call it when a Historian/Farrier goes after nBS all the time ;)-

JHUshoer20

Dec. 17, 2008, 07:38 PM

Okay smart alec... what would you call it when a Historian/Farrier goes after nBS all the time ;)-
Ah touche m'amie!:lol:

Tree

Dec. 17, 2008, 07:39 PM

What is the difference between a "natural" barefoot trim and a regular trim by a farrier? What's so great about the natural trim?

A good trim is a good trim right, or is there some magical difference between the two?

Thanks!

p.s. I searched for similar topics on this but couldn't find any ...

Looks safe enough to respond so here goes. :D

IMO, the differences between a natural trim and a farrier "pasture trim" are this:

The natural trim was modeled after the abrasive terrain wild horse hoof wear pattern. Jaime Jackson, Pete Ramey and those who either still do or used to, would trim domesticated horse hooves to look something like the wild horse hooves...specific to the abrasive terrain wild horse hooves. You can google Jaime Jackson or Pete Ramey and find their web pages showing examples of real abrasive terrain wild horses hooves (cadavers & live examples).

When it comes to the Farrier "Pasture Trim" hoof model I can only tell you what these are like in my area of the country. There is no specific model for a "Pasture trim" so it can vary from area to area and farrier to farrier. The toes tend to be short, heels somewhat higher, bars may or may not be trimmed to go with the sole concave shape, wall edges may or may not be beveled or rounded off and usually only the tattered bits of frog and sole are removed and the foot rasped to be level. Doesn't take much time to do all 4 hooves.

And while you didn't ask, I will volunteer another barefoot trim....a trim based on physiology. This focuses on balancing the coffin bone to being close to or at ground parallel, which differs from a "pasture trim" and often times, the "natural trim". There will be exceptions according to coffin bone remodeling and the sort of footing the horse spends most of its time on. The horse's lifestyle matters too (which also goes for the natural trim...depending on the trimmer). With Farriery, a horse's lifestyle is often what it is and the Farrier works around it unless it undermines their efforts entirely and then they'll have to say something. Physiological hoof trimmers place a lot of importance on how the horse lives in that it is as close to natural as possible, under the circumstances. Natural trimmers may require the same or make more allowances.

Hope this helped.

Tree

JHUshoer20

Dec. 17, 2008, 07:42 PM

Fire away Kimmy!!!!!!:D
George

caballus

Dec. 17, 2008, 07:44 PM

It was Equus ... and yes, it was a good article.

Difference between trims? Ideally, there *SHOULDN'T* be any differences. A trim that is correct and healthy for a particular barefooted horse is one that is correct for that horse. Doesn't matter if a "barefoot trimmer" did it or a farrier. What is common to see, however, are hooves that are trimmed as if shoes were going to be applied but then they're left barefoot. Longer toes, shorter heels, soles trimmed out etc. etc. If a farrier knows what he/she is doing then he/she wouldn't be leaving a barefoot hoof in such a state. On the other hand, there are trimmers who follow ummmm, a different 'protocal' than what is ultimately the most beneficial for the horse. For example, Strasser trimmers who carve concavity into the sole, dig out perceived "impacted bars" and strive to obtain the perfect 30* hairline angle. All of which might be fine for one particular horse but might just be deadly for another.

The point being ... a correct trim is a correct trim. Period. The "hoof in hand" must be catered to on the "horse in hand" ... and every horse, every hoof is different. That being said there *are* goals in mind when trimming hooves to be balanced and level. You can find info and photos here: www.barefoottrim.com in the "Educational" section under 'BALANCE'. Whether or not a hoof can be brought to "specs" as exhibited there right off the bat is determined by the horse/the hoof, itself.

If your horse is sound, without contracted heels, without separations or any thrush/fungus ... if he can W/T/C over all sorts of terrain without any hints of "ouchiness" then you needn't worry about WHO does the trim ... quite obviously the farrier is doing just fine. And, for that matter, so are YOU! Healthy hooves are far more affected by diet, environment, use etc. than just a trim. So if your horse is happy and sound then don't sweat the small stuff ... all is well. :)

JHUshoer20

Dec. 17, 2008, 07:47 PM

When it comes to the Farrier "Pasture Trim" hoof model I can only tell you what these are like in my area of the country. There is no specific model for a "Pasture trim" so it can vary from area to area and farrier to farrier. The toes tend to be short, heels somewhat higher, bars may or may not be trimmed to go with the sole concave shape, wall edges may or may not be beveled or rounded off and usually only the tattered bits of frog and sole are removed and the foot rasped to be level. Can't speak for what fairyers do but as a horse shoer I prefer the barn aisle trim myself:yes: Doesn't take much time to do all 4 hooves.
No, as well it shouldn't:winkgrin:
George

Rick Burten

Dec. 17, 2008, 07:52 PM

IMO, the differences between a natural trim and a farrier "pasture trim" are this:

The OP didn't ask about a 'pasture trim' whatever that might be, she asked about the difference between a farrier's trim and a natural barefooter's trim.

The natural trim was modeled after the abrasive terrain wild horse hoof wear pattern.

First, the trim is based on a feral hoof model, not a wild hoof model

Second, the trim fails to account for how ferals, not on high desert terrain, grow, wear and maintain their feet.

Further, what Jackson, Ramey, et al fail to account for is whether that hoof wear pattern has any influence on the demise of certain members of the population. Absent evidence to the contrary, my considered opinion is that it does, therefore negating the necessity of humans mimicking said feral hoof wear pattern en toto..

When it comes to the Farrier "Pasture Trim" hoof model I can only tell you what these are like in my area of the country. There is no specific model for a "Pasture trim" so it can vary from area to area and farrier to farrier. The toes tend to be short, heels somewhat higher, bars may or may not be trimmed to go with the sole concave shape, wall edges may or may not be beveled or rounded off and usually only the tattered bits of frog and sole are removed and the foot rasped to be level. Doesn't take much time to do all 4 hooves.

Too many misstatements to try to correct other than to say, poppycock.

As for how long it takes for a farrier to trim a horse, the operant factor is, "It Depends".

And while you didn't ask, I will volunteer another barefoot trim....a trim based on physiology.

Mo ma'am its not. Its based on debunked and disproved theory rooted in total Junk Science.

This focuses on balancing the coffin bone to being close to or at ground parallel,

Actually, what it focuses on is trimming the horse's feet in such a manner so as to be contrary to the laws of nature and physics and to put the horse in a situation that routinely causes pain and unsoundness.

With Farriery, a horse's lifestyle is often what it is and the Farrier works around it unless it undermines their efforts entirely and then they'll have to say something.[/quote]

You think that in aggregate, the situation is different for barefoot only trimmers? LOL!

nometalgirl

Dec. 17, 2008, 07:56 PM

I hear the train a'comin'...

..it's rollin 'round the bend...

:eek::lol::lol:

Ha... Ha... Ha... that is sooooo funny..... I know what you mean!! Hopefully this thread won't get closed down!!

Tree

Dec. 17, 2008, 07:58 PM

The OP didn't ask about a 'pasture trim' whatever that might be, she asked about the difference between a farrier's trim and a natural barefooter's trim.

Maybe the OP should have been more specific then. My impression of what they were asking for was a Farrier trim for a barefoot horse. My comments are based on that impression.

Tree

nometalgirl

Dec. 17, 2008, 08:04 PM

The OP didn't ask about a 'pasture trim' whatever that might be, she asked about the difference between a farrier's trim and a natural barefooter's trim.

First, the trim is based on a feral hoof model, not a wild hoof model

Second, the trim fails to account for how ferals, not on high desert terrain, grow, wear and maintain their feet.

Further, what Jackson, Ramey, et al fail to account for is whether that hoof wear pattern has any influence on the demise of certain members of the population. Absent evidence to the contrary, my considered opinion is that it does, therefore negating the necessity of humans mimicking said feral hoof wear pattern en toto..

Too many misstatements to try to correct other than to say, poppycock.

As for how long it takes for a farrier to trim a horse, the operant factor is, "It Depends".

Mo ma'am its not. Its based on debunked and disproved theory rooted in total Junk Science.

Actually, what it focuses on is trimming the horse's feet in such a manner so as to be contrary to the laws of nature and physics and to put the horse in a situation that routinely causes pain and unsoundness.

With Farriery, a horse's lifestyle is often what it is and the Farrier works around it unless it undermines their efforts entirely and then they'll have to say something.

You think that in aggregate, the situation is different for barefoot only trimmers? LOL![/QUOTE]

uhhh... not total junk science.... how come dogs don't wear shoes... not natural right??

Tango14

Dec. 17, 2008, 08:22 PM

Healthy hooves are far more affected by diet, environment, use etc. than just a trim.

I concur with everything in the post, but from personal experience I must point out that a farrier can, by way of a single 'bad' trim, cause shape and wear problems which can be difficult to correct even as soon as the next trim. Been there, done that and paid the price.That's why I stand next to mine and give input for each horse. If there are obvious errors I make sure they're fixed up right away, however slight. This is not to say my farrier isn't good, just that I'm the one who sees the hooves on a daily basis, understands the terrain and knows exactly what the outcome will be of even the smallest deviation in the trim.

And, IMO, 99.9% of so-called barefoot trim is nothing more than a chance to exploit the horse owner financially. A good trim is a good trim, a bad one is BAD. As mentioned, most (?) times unshod horses are given trims as if they're going to be shod which is totally incorrect and detrimental to the hoof.

Tree

Dec. 17, 2008, 08:22 PM

Difference between trims? Ideally, there *SHOULDN'T* be any differences. A trim that is correct and healthy for a particular barefooted horse is one that is correct for that horse. Doesn't matter if a "barefoot trimmer" did it or a farrier.

In an ideal world, wouldn't that be great if all trims were correct and healthy for each and every hooved animal that gets a trim. In an ideal world, the lifestyle would support the growth and developement of healthy hooves.

What is common to see, however, are hooves that are trimmed as if shoes were going to be applied but then they're left barefoot.

Yes, that's the general description of Farrier trimmed barefoot horses in my area.

On the other hand, there are trimmers who follow ummmm, a different 'protocal' than what is ultimately the most beneficial for the horse. For example, Strasser trimmers who carve concavity into the sole, dig out perceived "impacted bars" and strive to obtain the perfect 30* hairline angle. All of which might be fine for one particular horse but might just be deadly for another.

There are those who practice the Strasser methods who could speak from practical experience, like me. ;) Concavity can't be forced. If a horse doesn't have enough depth to their feet, you can't create it simply by trimming. There is such a thing as having too much bar horn. No point in arguing if it exists or not or what you want to call it. The 30* hairline exists as well but it depends on the condition of the coffin bone. Strasser isn't the only one to recognize the 30* angled hairline. Until I was introduced to Strasser's methods and ideas, I'd never heard anyone refer to hairlines having a specific angle. At any rate, Strasser always says that it depends when it comes to what hooves need.

The point being ... a correct trim is a correct trim. Period. The "hoof in hand" must be catered to on the "horse in hand" ... and every horse, every hoof is different.

What's "correct" would depend on the principle a method is based upon. There is more than one standard regarding coffin bone balance, heel to toe. I think it's safe to say that lateral balance is the same across the board for normal horses. But because there are varying standards for coffin bone balance, not all methods will be equal.

That being said there *are* goals in mind when trimming hooves to be balanced and level.

It depends on what is considered to be "balanced". You have methods which set the coffin bone up with a palmar angle and methods which want a 0 palmar angle. Methods which would shape the hoof to the existing coffin bone angle (founder treatments which would match the hoof balance to a rotated cb).

If your horse is sound, without contracted heels, without separations or any thrush/fungus ... if he can W/T/C over all sorts of terrain without any hints of "ouchiness" then you needn't worry about WHO does the trim ... quite obviously the farrier is doing just fine.

The owner needs to be educated enough not to become too apathetic about what's being done to their horse's feet. There are shod horses that can W/T/C over all sorts of terrain without any hints of "ouchiness" and it's such a shock when problems appear to come out of nowhere when and if it should happen. So it isn't that "obvious" or that simple.

Tree

irishcas

Dec. 17, 2008, 08:33 PM

Can't speak for what fairyers do but as a horse shoer I prefer the barn aisle trim myself:yes: No, as well it shouldn't:winkgrin:
George

Yes but is your aisle trim on concrete or dirt/sand? Or wait... Ooooo Ooooo I know it should be a physiological trim based on living on padded concrete and hoof soaks with thin carved upon soles so the horse can "feeeeeeel" their environment. So the horse can have prooooooooper function. Which none of us traditional BTers or Farriers can possible do or understand. Von Must Speak Deutshe to understand all the nuances of this uniquely unique, impacted bar type of trim. Hiel Strasser.. Ya Volt Commandant.

Oh wait, we are talking about Natural Trimmers... I forgot.

Dear OP: I will repeat their ain't no thing. I do agree that there are a lot of craptastic farriers out there (sorry boys) but there are. I have said before, I've heard many a local farrier refer to their barefoot horses as a Pasture Trim and they spend about 2 minutes trimming them. Many of the horses are sound despite this, yet people get all wiggy about chipping.

As the sane minds of the group are repeating.... A good trim is a good trim no matter the name attached.

irishcas

Dec. 17, 2008, 08:37 PM

First, the trim is based on a feral hoof model, not a wild hoof model

Second, the trim fails to account for how ferals, not on high desert terrain, grow, wear and maintain their feet.

And that brings up another good point. Go ask Allie Hayes what she is finding in mustang feet.

Are they living in the terrain they evolved on????? I don't think so, man is pushing them into harsher and harsher terrain, they are adapting but are they healthy? Based on what I'm seeing from Allie, I would tend to say mabye not. Nature is amazing in her ability to modify the organism to adapt to conditions.

So while a more natural approach to human lifestyles and our 4 legged companions is vital. Common sense must prevail, I for one prefer bare over shod, and I prefer a correct trim over a poor one. Simple.

I think we should learn from all the scientists and then go with what resonates with us most. It is what makes the world go round.

irishcas

Dec. 17, 2008, 08:39 PM

And, IMO, 99.9% of so-called barefoot trim is nothing more than a chance to exploit the horse owner financially.

Yeah how so? All of my clients so far, are saving money using me the barefoot trimmer over their farrier. Not why they came to me (99% anyway) but it is true.

J.D.

Dec. 17, 2008, 08:39 PM

irishcas;-...

As the sane minds of the group are repeating.... A good trim is a good trim no matter the name attached.

Except for MINE!:yes::yes::cool::cool:

Rick Burten

Dec. 17, 2008, 08:50 PM

uhhh... not total junk science.... how come dogs don't wear shoes... not natural right??

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this discussion is about horses, not dogs.

Trying to compare the two is like trying to compare the taste of Golden Delicious Apples to the taste of road apples.

But as long as you want to pursue this line of illogical thought and ludicrous comparisons, why do you wear shoes? That's not natural either, right. Nor is wearing clothing. But you do it, right? How about going to the doctor or dentist? Is that natural? How about taking medication of any sort?
Were you vaccinated against measles, mumps, polio, whooping cough, small pox, etc ad naseum? Do you eat cooked food or is everything you eat, raw? Do you drink flouridated water? In fact, do you take regular showers or baths? Brush your teeth? Shave any body hair? Ever wear any make-up? Use toilet paper? Shall I go on? No? I thought not....

Rick Burten

Dec. 17, 2008, 08:53 PM

I concur with everything in the post, but from personal experience I must point out that a farrier can, by way of a single 'bad' trim, cause shape and wear problems which can be difficult to correct even as soon as the next trim.

More correctly, any hoof care provider can, by way of a single 'bad trim'...........

irishcas

Dec. 17, 2008, 09:00 PM

Except for MINE!:yes::yes::cool::cool:

hmmmphhh, I'm still not sure I'm speaking to you, til you rectify that other situation! ;) I' waiting...........................

irishcas

Dec. 17, 2008, 09:01 PM

Shave any body hair? Ever wear any make-up? Use toilet paper? Shall I go on? No? I thought not....

I haven't shaved my legs since the summer, does that make me a Natural Legged Natural Barefoot Hairy Trimmer? I'm very light skinned, auburn hair, so it doesn't look hairy ;) :yes:

BornToRide

Dec. 17, 2008, 09:16 PM

Difference between trims? Ideally, there *SHOULDN'T* be any differences
Isn't that the truth. All horses should be trimmed so the hoof capsule is balanced to internal hoof structures with adequate heel and toe length (neither too long or too short.) The general guideline is about 1 - 1 1/4 inch of collateral groove depth at the heels and about 3/4 " at the apex of the frog when measured from a hoofwall height that is approx. 1/8 high (more height and you get too much peripheral hoof wall loaading which is undesirable, although some horses seem to need a bit more that what is generally recommended and I don't argue with what the horse needs.) It should be finished with a adequate hoofwall bevel for easy breakover and to reduce hoof wall leverage when loading the hooves.

Farriers tend to trim too much sole and frog and have a tendency to leave toes and heels too long. I also see a lot of medio lateral imbalances (one heel higher than the other) and quarters left too long in many horses that I get that were trimmed by farriers before. Not sure way, but it is a VERY high percentage, 80 -90 %. Generally I also see more trim problems in challenging hooves than I see in naturally more balanced hooves.

I also find that many of the local farriers I know manhandle the horses too much and cranking their legs too high for trimming, which in turn causes other problems as well. One regularly beats on the horses, one has been known to twitch the horses and tie them to the bumper of his truck and yet another has been known to throw and pin them into a corner of a stall for trimming!! I personally only know of TWO farriers who treat the horses kindly. This is rather sad! I have certainly felt the horse's apprehension in more than one case during the first trim by me. The next time they knew they could trust me and are generally much more relaxed and more cooperative.

Rick Burten

Dec. 17, 2008, 09:16 PM

I haven't shaved my legs since the summer, does that make me a Natural Legged Natural Barefoot Hairy Trimmer? I'm very light skinned, auburn hair, so it doesn't look hairy ;) :yes:

No ma'am. However if you try to claim this distinction, I'll brand you a hypocrite. After all, you admitted you did shave your legs. :D

However, you did bring up another thought--I wonder, does NMG cut her hair or use a depilatory for any facial hair, say under her nose?

irishcas

Dec. 17, 2008, 09:25 PM

No ma'am. However if you try to claim this distinction, I'll brand you a hypocrite. After all, you admitted you did shave your legs. :D

However, you did bring up another thought--I wonder, does NMG cut her hair or use a depilatory for any facial hair, say under her nose?

wait wait, I have a good story about this, is it appropriate to Horse care though??? Should I tell it. It involves a visit to the infamous salon in Manhattan called the J Sisters and it is owned/run by 7 sisters from Brazil. It involves hair removal and it's a good story.

If you all want to hear it, I'm not shy about sharing it..... Let me know..

Regards,

Rick Burten

Dec. 17, 2008, 09:36 PM

The general guideline is about 1 - 1 1/4 inch of collateral groove depth at the heels and about 3/4 " at the apex of the frog when measured from a hoofwall height that is approx. 1/8 high

According to whom and based on what?

Farriers tend to trim too much sole and frog and have a tendency to leave toes and heels too long.

A downright lie.

I also see a lot of medio lateral imbalances (one heel higher than the other) and quarters left too long in many horses that I get that were trimmed by farriers before. Not sure way, but it is a VERY high percentage, 80 -90 %.

Unless you were standing there at the time the trim was performed, you are merely guessing as to how the farrier trimmed/balanced the hoof. And after several weeks, all bets are off.

And you are basing your observations on what? Seeing a whole 78 horses that comprise your custom? Get back to me when you've seen ten thousand or more hooves. Then, we might actually have something relevant to discuss.

I also find that many of the local farriers I know manhandle the horses too much and cranking their legs too high for trimming, which in turn causes other problems as well.

Really? How often and with how many different farriers do you personally see this routinely happening?

One regularly beats on the horses, one has been known to twitch the horses and tie them to the bumper of his truck and yet another has been known to throw and pin them into a corner of a stall for trimming!!

Really? You know this via personal observations/experience, or are you just repeating hearsay? By the way, did you bother to inquire as to what the horse(s) might have been doing if such actions actually took place? Odds are, that the beasts in question are ill mannered pukes whose owners are fluff bunnies suffering from TSS.

I personally only know of TWO farriers who treat the horses kindly.

You need to get out more.

This is rather sad! I have certainly felt the horse's apprehension in more than one case during the first trim by me. The next time they knew they could trust me and are generally much more relaxed and more cooperative.

How anthropomorphologicaly arrogant of you.

Rick Burten

Dec. 17, 2008, 09:38 PM

If you all want to hear it, I'm not shy about sharing it..... Let me know..

Regards,

I'm all ears, errrrr eyes.

By the way, this wouldn't be a salon that practices Karate the way Mr. Miagi taught Daniel-san, ie: Wax on, wax off. :eek: :D

whbar158

Dec. 17, 2008, 09:44 PM

I am in no way an expert, but do see a lot of horses from different barns done by a variety of farriers/trimmers. It is sad that many many hoof care professionals are truly not very good at their job:no: And I think it is because many can get away with it, a farrier lamed my horse at the barn he is at now, as he has done to a few more horses out there yet people still use him! (my horse was lame due to an imbalance that caused sheared heels) He regularly makes one horse lame after being shod but the owner keeps paying to to do their feet!
Anyways what I agree there should be no difference between a trim a farrier gives to a horse who is barefoot than a barefoot or natural trimmer does to their horses. It should be balanced and not trimmed too short or not enough. As should a trim that is about to have a shoe applied (even more so as the hoof can not naturally wear to try to even out any uneveness) I know the OP didn't ask for this but what I see different about a trim for a barefoot horse and a shod horse is how it is finished, as a barefoot horses hoof tends to be beveled a little to help with chipping and a shod hoof isn't until the shoe has been applied. But a good trim is a good trim no matter what it is being called.

irishcas

Dec. 17, 2008, 09:58 PM

I'm all ears, errrrr eyes.

By the way, this wouldn't be a salon that practices Karate the way Mr. Miagi taught Daniel-san, ie: Wax on, wax off. :eek: :D

Okay you talked me into it.

When I worked in Manhattan, I'd hoof it (no pun intended) on over to The J Sisters every 5 weeks to get my brows, lip and brazilian wax done. Yeah for Brazilians. Anyhoooooo the second time there I got Janie (pronounced Yannie), she was the eldest J sister and still had her strong Brazilian accent.

Well I had my Brazilian, my brows done and was waiting for my lip (what woman go thru... :sigh:) and she said "You want it all, right" Me thinking, my lip - "Of Course"

Hang on, now I have to describe what it's like to get a waxing, they put powder on the area to be waxed "off" and then they put the wax on, put paper on that and Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiip.

So Janie (Yannie) dips her two first fingers in the powder and SHOVES them up my nostrils. Huh, I think and then she shoves wax in my nose, the paper and Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiip, Ooofa, that hurt, not a hair left in my nose.

Talk about not natural, try keeping your nose from running when it is 5 degrees and you have no hair in your nose :D :D

I'll take a Brazilian any day over having my nose hair ripped out.

Hee heeee

webmistress32

Dec. 17, 2008, 10:24 PM

if I found a farrier who would trim my horse's hooves as well as my "trimmer" does, maybe I'd hire him (or her) IF my trimmer stopped working or left or whatever.

however I'd be so super duper extra special surprised to find a farrier who does the Pete Ramey type of trim I like so I'd probably in the end up with a new trimmer not a farrier.

around here it seems most farriers just shape the foot a bit to prep for a shoe. and they remove sole and frog which I don't think is right. otoh I have yet to see a "natural" trimmer around here do either.

just some anecdotal thoughts to throw into the fire.

irishcas

Dec. 17, 2008, 10:52 PM

I'm all ears, errrrr eyes.

By the way, this wouldn't be a salon that practices Karate the way Mr. Miagi taught Daniel-san, ie: Wax on, wax off. :eek: :D

Hey:

Why are you Rick Burten now and not Hoofrx1???

nometalgirl

Dec. 18, 2008, 09:02 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this discussion is about horses, not dogs.

Trying to compare the two is like trying to compare the taste of Golden Delicious Apples to the taste of road apples.

But as long as you want to pursue this line of illogical thought and ludicrous comparisons, why do you wear shoes? That's not natural either, right. Nor is wearing clothing. But you do it, right? How about going to the doctor or dentist? Is that natural? How about taking medication of any sort?
Were you vaccinated against measles, mumps, polio, whooping cough, small pox, etc ad naseum? Do you eat cooked food or is everything you eat, raw? Do you drink flouridated water? In fact, do you take regular showers or baths? Brush your teeth? Shave any body hair? Ever wear any make-up? Use toilet paper? Shall I go on? No? I thought not....

Hmmmm..., OK, so you've missed the point again.... interesting!

Rick Burten

Dec. 18, 2008, 10:44 PM

Hey:

Why are you Rick Burten now and not Hoofrx1???
I wanted my given name rather than a screen name on top of all my posts so I asked the mods to change it for me. They did and I thank them.

Rick Burten

Dec. 18, 2008, 10:47 PM

Hmmmm..., OK, so you've missed the point again.... interesting!

I've missed nothing . And I mean that literally and figuratively.

But you go right ahead and continue to write foolish and incorrect and misleading information. I enjoy pointing out the ongoing errors of your ways. Perhaps along the way, I'll keep someone from actually listening to you or following your advise. Afterall, a journey of a thousand miles begins with but one step.

Tango14

Dec. 18, 2008, 11:58 PM

Yeah how so? All of my clients so far, are saving money using me the barefoot trimmer over their farrier. Not why they came to me (99% anyway) but it is true.

Because where I am a barefoot trim is considered some magic-smagic superior trim which costs three times the price of a regular trim. The people who are being hooked are novices who know no better and it infuriates me because they are wasting money in tough economic times which could go to actually feeding their horses. It's not as it their ''barefoot trim farriers'' are doing a better job than my regular farrier who trims my horses.

BornToRide

Dec. 19, 2008, 01:14 AM

Because where I am a barefoot trim is considered some magic-smagic superior trim which costs three times the price of a regular trim. The people who are being hooked are novices who know no better and it infuriates me because they are wasting money in tough economic times which could go to actually feeding their horses. It's not as it their ''barefoot trim farriers'' are doing a better job than my regular farrier who trims my horses.
That's too bad - we don't do this here. It is more important to us to help the horses rather than making beaucoup bucks. There's one local trimmer who charges more because of her certification though.

Alexie

Dec. 19, 2008, 02:57 PM

grayarabs

Dec. 19, 2008, 03:39 PM

Since my foray (?) into barefoot stuff - just a few years ago - I have seen four trimmers and one farrier work on horses. The farrier I watch nips off the wall - more at the toe to include biting into the sole - less at quarters - and even less - if at all - the heels.
He rasps the wall but not a noticeable bevel. Nothing done to the sole or bars - well except where he nips to lower the toe/remove wall. I am thinking this farrier very much western horse ie halter/pleasure oriented - where the heel is left high - thinking looks better or thought better for collection? By the next day - many of the horses are sore from the sole removal. This guy is CJF etc. Is it possible that western/stock horses - the farriers that specialize in those horses - intentionally trim differently than english type horses/disciplines? I don't like the small hoof, high heel, low toe look myself.
Seems whenever I see an add/photo of a western/stock horse that is the hoof I see.
So - that trim is most definitely different than the barefoot trim to which we all refer - which does not concentrate on lowering toes and leaving heels high- rather the opposite.
So - yes there is a difference - but I think the difference is the extremes of how some farriers trim.

BornToRide

Dec. 19, 2008, 11:07 PM

Yes, in some breeds the hooves are intentially left longer to create more knee action. You can see this in Arabs for example.

What I see in the QH arena is the desire for small, iddy, biddy hooves on a 1400 lbs, muscular animal :mad: Especially halter horses tend to be bred with a preference for small hooves, plus they often wear shoes way too early before the hooves are mature.

In addition , if the heels are consistently left too long, the hooves will contract and become smaller in diameter. Perhaps this is known and perpetuated because small hooves are "desired".

I have also noticed that lot of halter QH horses are selectively bred to be more upright in the pasterns. Then they are pushed to grow fast and tall with lotsa muscle. This causes frequent bouts of laminitis and worse founder. :mad: It also causes the bones to grow too fast, while the muscles cannot keep up. That then causes many horses to buckle over the knee and become chronic toe loaders which again fosters heel contraction :(