Hoof Experts- help

[GallopingGrape]

Here is the reading of my boarder's radiographs - by our vet. If anyone has been reading "bombproof horse, now spooky" threads, then the "how to building confidence on the trail" thread.... I've been dealing with what was once a bombproof, cuddle horse that a two year old can ride, to a big, spooky, shaking - wanting to buck you off horse in a matter of three months. We're treating for ulcers, his "undersaddle" attitude is just getting worse. Some of you asked me about his navicular and here is the response from the vet. Also, this horse will stand so "camped under" when the farrier lifts one foot, that you think he will fall over. His rear feet come up so far under himself, we're not sure how he's standing.

The navicular bones in Dr. Dohanich's radiographs has a slightly moth-eaten appearance on one of the views, a 60 degree elevated front to back shot. On the lateral films, the distal border of the bone may have a bit of remodeling, that is a lumpier than usual appearance. These changes are mild and could be nothing or just early navicular. Usually navicular syndrome does not cause the camped under posture. Severe sole bruising would, and that is something we saw when I examined him. The confusing bit about that was that his digital pulses were not as heavy as expected, and it took unusually firm pressure on the hoof testers to elicit the response. Nevertheless, I think his stance is more likely the bruising than navicular. A navicular block could rule this in or out, but its a difficult and potentially expensive procedure, and it would be much more meaningful if he were clinically lame on the day it was done. Part of the trou ble I was having with diagnosing him last month was that he wasn't really lame that day, so we're having to speculate based on history, physical exam, and radiographic changes that may or may not be significant. So there we are. Not sure if that helps, but it's what I've got.

[marta]

how old is he?
what's his diet like?
any chance he's suffering from a metabolic problem that's resulting in inflammation of the laminae and causing that stance and soreness?

in my experience "navicular" horses may be off at trot but never have i seen a "navicular" horse who stands like that.

[Rick Burten]

Sounds like a horse with undiagnosed pain issues that may be mostly sub-clinical but under saddle rise to a clinical level.

What diagnostics have been done to evaluate and [hopefully]localize the source of his discomfort?

[GallopingGrape]

I'll get photos. He is a 10yr old Ketucky Mountain horse. Free choice Orchard hay. No grain. 1/2 lb McCaullys M30 supplement which he's been getting for years. He just came to me in Sept. Came to me with horrible feet, back feet weren't trimmed in months and front had super tall heels. He was a fat pasture ornament. When he was ridden, he was the "follower". Quiet as a church mouse. Nothing, absolutly nothing phased him. Dull. Boring trail horse. He was GREAT GREAT for his new green rider.

What metobolic problem could cause that stance>? He has to be in pain on the trail - to be acting so badly..... but we can't find the pain. He is reluctant to go out on the trails, you really have to push him. Out there initially he is "ok" but within 30 minutes (in 30 degree weather) at only a walk or light gait, he's a sweaty, shaking mess. Heading home, he'll rush and try to buck you off if you hold him back.

Its more than a lack of confidence, something is wrong with this guy that our vet, nor the chiro can find...? Although we haven't explored anything beyond ulcers and navicular.

[GallopingGrape]

.... and the first month he was here, he would WILLINGLY go out alone on the trails, with others, front or back.. he was dreamy, quiet, dull... push button. October came and he began to change, we began ulcer treatment about 20 days ago... he's getting uncontrollable for his owner, and "difficult" at best - for me.

[Rienzi]

I haven't read those other threads (I think) so this may be retreading, but... it took about a month for this to show up? Could he have been drugged?
How is his urine? Could he have kidney problems? I think that could cause the stance you are talking about. Could be a back/whither issue. Does his saddle still fit him? Sounds like he has changed shape a lot in the last few months... maybe the weight of the rider in the saddle pushes it down and it is hitting somewhere it shouldn't.

Hope you find the trouble and can fix it.

[Jumpin_Horses]

have you ruled out a pelvic/stifle/back/hock/saddle issue?

ETA - yep, could be kidneys too.... does he drink and pee A LOT?

has he seen a dentist? chiro?

sounds more like the pain meds his previous owner had him on to sell him, are now wearing off.

a friend of mine bought this "great, sweet, bombproof horse" once.. about a month after she bought him, he went totally INSANE..... im mean, totally, almost killed her little daughter...... turns out he was a cryptoid (sp?), on drugs to cover it up. he was pumping out ungodly amounts of testerone.... :mad:

[GallopingGrape]

His teeth were done this spring and were re-checked last month. He's seen a Chrio and acupuncturist - and his regular vet for lameness tests. Passed them all. Saddle fits perfectly, lightweight rider. Pee and drinks normally. His current owner was leasing him before she purchased him and brought him to me, so I don't think he was drugged, unless he was drugged during his entire lease period as well....

[Jumpin_Horses]

oh, okay...

can you post the rads? pics of his feet? and his stance?

[pines4equines]

Is this horse inside at all? When he is standing in the stall, does he clump the bedding under his feet to create his own wedge pad of sorts? So his toes are pointing down and his heels are up? Does he do this outside?

When I worked as a groom, horses with navicular naturally made their own wedge pads out of whatever was available. Does this horse do this?

We once actually made a little wedge pad to test one of our horses ourselves. We made it out of wood and actually duct taped it to her foot to see if she would walk better with her heel elevated, kinda like a high heel. It actually worked and helped us with the diagnosis with the vet and farrier. Both said, while unconventional it did give them info to use in the horse's treatment.

We took a solid piece of wood and honed it down to a wedge shape rather than making it with separate pieces of wood which would just get crushed. I know unconventional but it worked and provided info.

When you say camped out, is he standing in the founder stance with hinds under and fronts out front or are his front and back toes meeting under him?

Could this be a soy thing? Did you read the soy thread a month or so back? I'm know I'm grasping at straws but it's worth a stab.

[GallopingGrape]

Please! Grasp away! I'm doing the same... He doesn't go in the stall, he lives out 24x7 so I can't say I've seen him "creating his own wedge", but what an idea! When he stands out in the field, he stands normally, when he eats, he brings his hind legs under him a little. When the farrier holds one front foot, he will bring his hind feet sooo far under himself, and his one front so far back, all three will almost touch. I don't know how he does it. Oh, I just thought of something else... when I clean his feet or put on his boots, out in the field, he doesn't get as extreme camped under as he does with the farrier... He stands on cement when the farrier is here. Dont know what that has to do with anything... but he's way worse (camped under) with the farrier - and its not like she holds his leg for that long. It takes me a while to get his boots on, he doesn't get to that extreme stance with me, in the grass.
Ok, I'm grasping too.......

[Rick Burten]

.. but he's way worse (camped under) with the farrier - and its not like she holds his leg for that long.

It sounds as though your farrier needs to adjust her position under the horse. However she is now holding the front leg is making the horse uncomfortable and/or feel pain. The horse gets its hind legs up under itself in an effort to reduce the pain it is feeling in the front leg that is being held.

It takes me a while to get his boots on, he doesn't get to that extreme stance with me, in the grass.
.

I'm willing to bet a dollar against a donut hole that that is because you don't get her leg in a position that is uncomfortable or painful for her.

Suggest to the farrier that she use a hoof cradle, set very low and keep the limb in line with the body, not pulled out(and up) to the side.

[rcloisonne]

What metobolic problem could cause that stance>?
Low grade chronic laminitis. Are you sure there's no rotation? Where the films taken with both front feet up on blocks of equal height?

[BornToRide]

Low grade chronic laminitis. Are you sure there's no rotation? Where the films taken with both front feet up on blocks of equal height?Ditto from how you are describing his compensations when he stands!

[MunchkinsMom]

Here is another straw to grasp, might be a vitamin E/selenium deficiency?

Symptoms include:
Vitamin E:

Muscle weakness and framentation caused by damaged cell walls
Ataxia
Joint swelling
Wobbler syndrome (associated with Equine Degenerative Encephalomyelopathy)
Signs suggestive of muscular dystrophy
Progressive retinal atrophy
Blood disorders
Weakened immune system
Equine motor neuron diseaseSelenium:

Reduced immunity
Decreased growth
Stiffness
White Muscle disease

[GallopingGrape]

Ok, I've thought of a common denominator between my boarder's horse (Cloud) and my gelding (Bacchus).... When the new horse arrived, I switched from my normal farrier to a "Barefoot" trimmer. Even though my gelding has always been barefoot, I needed to change farriers. Now I might need to beg him to come back! Anyway.... my geldings gait has changed since I've changed to the barefoot trimmer... He seems uncomfortable in his saddle rack, and he's starting to pace... also, my gelding has crooked legs, and on his right front, the outside hoof wall always grows faster than the inside wall and the farriers really need to keep after it. You normally would never notice, but after four months of the "barefoot" trim, I'm really seeing a crooked hoof. both of my horses chiro's said the farrier needs to bring their heels back. Farrier doesn't think so.

LONG story short, here are all of my hoof photos. I hope I'm adding this link correctly. The Boarder's horse name is Cloud - My gelding's name is Bacchus. Id love opinions please.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/33539893@N08/?saved=1

[pines4equines]

Tell us when the last trim was prior to pictures.

Were these pictures taken yesterday and when was the most recent trim?

[GallopingGrape]

Last trim was December 8. Next trim is Jan 12 - although we usually stick to 4 week trim. Photos were taken this morning, Dec 18.

[BornToRide]

His normal stance does NOT look normal to me at all. I see a chubby horse with a considerable crest. He could very well be IR. It is hard to tell in the photos, but I bet he has other fat pockets also over the shoulders and rump.

In addition, I see regular metabolic stress lines growing down the hoofwall and lack of good sole concavity, which to me are possible IR signs as well.

It also looks like he might have an unrecognized frog infection in the sulcus of the frog on the left front. If he flinches when you explore this crack with a hoof pick, he needs treatment for it. Any farrier/trimmer should note that and make recommendations accordingly, if an infection is present.

Your horse is slightly toed out. Slightly toed out horses tend to load the medial edge more and tend to flare more to the outside (grows more because it does not get the same amount of wear as the medial edge) - it is common to see in toed out horses to varying degrees, depending on how much the horse toes out.

[GallopingGrape]

Yes, I agree, its not a normal stance, but that's HIS normal stance. He is fat but not terribly so. I can feel his ribs, but he is cresty. He is ridden regularly, no grain, just M30, 1/2lb day, orchard hay free choice (but no more than 1/2 bale a day) and 1/2 cup Flax Seed meal. Prior to him coming to me, he was a pasture ornament on lush grass. What do you think of his feet? What can be causing all of his pain that no one can seem to find?

[GallopingGrape]

This is all new to me, can you please point out to me where you can find metabolic stress lines growing down the hoofwall? Which picture and what should I be looking for?

[BornToRide]

Yes, I agree, its not a normal stance, but that's HIS normal stance. He is fat but not terribly so. I can feel his ribs, but he is cresty. He is ridden regularly, no grain, just M30, 1/2lb day, orchard hay free choice (but no more than 1/2 bale a day) and 1/2 cup Flax Seed meal. Prior to him coming to me, he was a pasture ornament on lush grass. What do you think of his feet? What can be causing all of his pain that no one can seem to find?

He may be in pain because he's already slightly laminitic. With all the warning signs he shows, I'd have his glucose and insulin levels tested ASAP. The ratio between the two will tell you whether or not he's IR. If he is indeed IR, you will most likely need to control his diet more. Even the sugar in the hay can be too much for some horses.

If I was you, I would not even wait for results to come back and make diet changes now. I'd start soaking the hay and remove anything that might contain too much sugar and starch, that includes the M30 - not sure what's in it, the website won't say. Look at the label. If you see anything that resembles grain, soy or molasses, I would not use it. There are safer products to use for IR horses, like Equipride for example.

Hoofwall should be smooth - anytime you see regular ripples growing down the hoofwall it is a warning sign that a horse is possibly metabollically affected, especially when combined with other warning signs. He also shows a distinct stress line right in the middle of the front hooves. That is an indication that something more dramatic changed at that time. Could have been the trimming or something else, like diet changes, illness, vaccinations, wormings, etc.

[GallopingGrape]

How long do you soak the hay for? Just soak it, drain it and put it in his feeder? Uuuughh... lovely... just in time for winter.......

[pines4equines]

When you say Orchard grass, is it first or second cut? Maybe it's a wee bit lush. We feed a first cut NY hay which is not as lush.

[GallopingGrape]

Its second cutting... first cutting hay down here, 1/2 of it the horses won't eat and it gets wasted... He shares a 1/2 of a 35 lb bale per day with a hungry goat...!

[tidy rabbit]

That's not a normal stance for any horse. His front feet should be directly under him and they are way back under him as are his hind feet. I wonder if he has a back pain problem as well?

[GallopingGrape]

He is in pain somewhere and getting worse.. and unmanagable to handle.. this once quiet, quiet horse...

[pines4equines]

BTR might be right as far as metabolic. We call that second cut hay "candy" up here. I know the horses pooh-pooh first cut and really LOVE second cut, but they'll get used to it if there is no other option.

[Tree]

Just had a thought...kidney stone.

Tree

[tidy rabbit]

He is in pain somewhere and getting worse.. and unmanagable to handle.. this once quiet, quiet horse...

Does he have frequent small piles of manure? Frequent small streams of urine? These can be indicators of serious back problems. It could be that his back is jacked up and causing a vicious cycle between his back and feet.

[GallopingGrape]

Nope, pee and poo look normal and healthy. He had his back checked by chiro, all is well there. If this is laminitis, it could explain the onset of pain - and it getting worse, right??

[tidy rabbit]

The typical laminitis/founder stance is the front feet way out in front of the horse's body to give relief to the toes. The horse may even be holding a hoof off the ground trying to find some comfort. You don't usually see a laminitic horse standing with it's front feet way under it's body.

[tidy rabbit]

Here's a picture of a typical founder stance http://www.aaep.org/images/files/Laminitis%20Stance.jpg

[GallopingGrape]

So what causes a horse to stand so camped under? I've said this before, but when the farrier pulls up one leg to trim, all three feet touch. I swear he is going to fall over.

[Jumpin_Horses]

have you posted his x-rays, pics of his feet, and pics of his stance anywhere?

its difficult (and wrong) to diagnose over a BB even with more information. here we are throwing darts in the dark right now..

abcess, laminitis, back, pelvis, kidneys, founder, etc. etc..... :confused:

[tidy rabbit]

Jumpin Horses: She posted pictures of the horses feet, stance etc on the first page.

Here is her link again: http://www.flickr.com/photos/33539893@N08/?saved=1



to the OP: I hope you find out what's wrong with him and he's feeling better soon.

[GallopingGrape]

I"ve posted other threads here as well regarding this horse's entire history... and his progressive decline in my care over the past 4 months. I'll be happy to dig them up for ya.....

[tidy rabbit]

have you posted his x-rays, pics of his feet, and pics of his stance anywhere?

its difficult (and wrong) to diagnose over a BB even with more information. here we are throwing darts in the dark right now..

abcess, laminitis, back, pelvis, kidneys, founder, etc. etc..... :confused:


For sure it's difficult when you've overlooked the key posts with links to pictures. I don't think it's wrong to discuss it though. The OP is working with a vet.

[tidy rabbit]

So what causes a horse to stand so camped under? I've said this before, but when the farrier pulls up one leg to trim, all three feet touch. I swear he is going to fall over.

I don't know. Maybe it's more of a balance issue? Have you had him tested for EPM?

[Jumpin_Horses]

For sure it's difficult when you've overlooked the key posts with links to pictures. I don't think it's wrong to discuss it though. Why would it be wrong? The OP is working with a vet.

yea, I didnt see the post with the pictures of her horse. I asked but, no one responded so I assumed no pics were posted.

not wrong to discuss/brain storm.. but definately wrong to diagnose over a BB... you know the whole "practicing without a license" thing.... we are not vets (well most of us arent. at least im not) and even if we were, we are not there, we havent seen the horse in person, we dont know the environment, we dont have the foot in our lap. havent even seen pics, xrays, nothing.... guessing is all we can do, the final diagnose should be left up to the pros who are on-site. what if you diagnosed wrong, and the horse dies? then what?

[Tree]

not wrong to discuss/brain storm.. but definately wrong to diagnose over a BB...

OP asked for ideas, not diagnosies.

I'd not seen any pics either.

Comments about pics are: Hinds look very run forward and likely due to him standing with them tucked under himself. The fronts had a lot of bar and maybe too much heel but hard to tell with the camera/hoof angle. He appears to be trying to take weight off the fores by shifting the hinds under his belly. No, not a typical founder stance since the fores are back under him. Fores placed back suggests heel pain but with the combo of hind placement and fores together, I suspect his hoof issues are secondary to something else. He was also dropped in one photo. Again, kidney stone possible.

I would not ride a horse that is doing what he's doing. I think he's been trying to get that message across to whoever will catch it.

Good luck!

Tree

[tidy rabbit]

yea, I didnt see the post with the pictures of her horse. I asked but, no one responded so I assumed no pics were posted.

not wrong to discuss/brain storm.. but definately wrong to diagnose over a BB... you know the whole "practicing without a license" thing.... we are not vets (well most of us arent. at least im not) and even if we were, we are not there, we havent seen the horse in person, we dont know the environment, we dont have the foot in our lap. havent even seen pics, xrays, nothing.... guessing is all we can do, the final diagnose should be left up to the pros who are on-site. what if you diagnosed wrong, and the horse dies? then what?

We can however try to help educate the OP and give her things to think about and make suggestions on topics to discuss with her vet. She seems like she wants to learn and has an open mind to what people here might think. Surely with our collective experience we can help her to learn how to recognize founder along with other common, yet very serious, ailments.

[BornToRide]

He is in pain somewhere and getting worse.. and unmanagable to handle.. this once quiet, quiet horse...How does he move? Very gingerly? If so, I'd make the diet changes also ASAP and consult a vet as well, in case something else is going on.

Soak hay 1 hour in cold water and 1/2 hour in warm.

Also feel for digital pulse and heat in the hooves. Consider cold hosing the hooves as well. Movement will help pump that stagnating circulation and generally makes the horses feel better. I would not recommend confinement, which most vets tend to do.

You don't usually see a laminitic horse standing with it's front feet way under it's body.Not all laminitic horse stand the same way! It depends on individual, hoof form and severity of symptoms.

[GallopingGrape]

I'm definitely not looking for a diagnosis.. just trying to help this poor horse out. My Vets can't seem to find a lameness issue, but when he is ridden he is definitely telling me there is pain somewhere. He is not my horse, but belongs to my boarger - a first time horse owner who is being shocked by the amount of money she is pouring into this horse, and still not finding any answers. I'll post more tomorrow, perhaps I can pull together all of my posts and give everyone the full picture. I truly appreciate everyones thoughs and suggestions... I"m learning so much!

[GallopingGrape]

Please see my first post... vet's comments are on there regarding digital pulse, etc.. No, he walks just fine, trots just fine, has had lameness tests by vet, passes with flying colors. Chiro cant' find any soreness issues.... no ginger movements... except, sometimes downhill. Otherwise, he "appears" in no pain.... but obviously he is, by his stance, and by the terrible behavior this sweet sweet horse is showing under saddle... We cold hose after every ride... and now he is not being ridden - for obvious reasons, but he is turned out 24x7 to keep those feet moving and comfortable.

[tidy rabbit]

Not all laminitic horse stand the same way! It depends on individual, hoof form and severity of symptoms.


You have a keen sense of the obvious. That is why I wrote "usually" and provided a picture of what the "typical" stance looks like.

[BornToRide]

You have a keen sense of the obvious. That is why I wrote "usually" and provided a picture of what the "typical" stance looks like.
I brought this up not to argue with you, but so people would be aware that problems do not always present textbook perfect. That's why many things also get misdiagnosed and this goes right along with this, which is what the OP wrote:


The confusing bit about that was that his digital pulses were not as heavy as expected, and it took unusually firm pressure on the hoof testers to elicit the response. Nevertheless, I think his stance is more likely the bruising than navicular
Perhaps the DP was not heavy and he did not react much to hoof testers because he's in the mild stages of laminitis. Perhaps since the vet has seen this horse things have progressed to worse too, which one later post by the OP made me think that this is possibly the case!

To the OP, also possibly consider EPSM.

[Jumpin_Horses]

How does he move? Very gingerly? If so, I'd
Also feel for digital pulse and heat in the hooves. Consider cold hosing the hooves as well. Movement will help pump that stagnating circulation and generally makes the horses feel better. I would not recommend confinement, which most vets tend to do.



with all due respect BTR - this is what im talking about...... you cant give advise like this, what if you are WRONG?... what if the "attending veterinarian" is right and you are wrong?

what if "movement" and "cold hosing" (anytime the foot is soak or wetted down, it is compromised/weakened) is the worse thing you can do? along with any soaks or EPSM, or whateve..... we have not seen the horse.

she needs to work with her pros.

according to the OP.... this thing is getting worse! she could lose this animal. this needs to be taken seriously

To the OP, if your pros are not getting to an answer for you, then please seek a 2nd (or even 3rd) opinion. is there an equine hospital (or specialist) near you that you can take him to?

its easy for us to sit back and give armchair **uneducated advise**.. its not OUR horse on the line.

[Tree]

what if "movement" and "cold hosing" (anytime the foot is soak or wetted down, it is compromised/weakened) is the worse thing you can do? along with any soaks or EPSM, or whateve..... we have not seen the horse.

One point you raised caught my attention...the idea that anytime the foot is soaked or wetted down will compromise/weaken it. If that were true, then the foot is in some bad shape already. Moisture should NOT compromise or weaken feet if they're healthy.

Tree

[Jumpin_Horses]

im sorry Tree, forgive me if we disagree on the soaking issue

http://www.equipodiatry.com/footsoak.htm

ETA - also, we are not talking about a healthy foot on this post.. right?

[wateryglen]

TRY a different farrier - maybe he's being trimmed too often and his feet don't have enough growth and he's sore....Needs shoes? heart bars/egg bars? Just another skilled opinion can't hurt! Get an older one with experience with this breed maybe?
TRY a different vet - one who specializes in "lameness" es!
TRY a diet variation - flax has a lot of calories you know; change hays, brands of ration balancer etc.
The shaking/sweating/unwillingness to move when ridden sounds like tying up/myopathy issues. He's looks qh to me or part qh anyway. TRY a high fiber/fat feed and skip the other stuff. Whatever you do; try one change at a time so you can help him/figure it out one thing at a time. I'd start with diet. Find some really crappy hay. Is your pasture lush? TRY him on a dry lot with crappy hay for half a day. Pastures get high in sugars in the fall....
TRY him on some bute for a few days.....forget the ulcers for a few days. It won't hurt him as you're using it diagnostically. Or try banamine. Or that new expensive coxib one that costs an arm & leg! Ulcers won't cause all these symptoms but laminitis or epsm might.

Those xrays are probably "normal" for a fat 10 yr old horse who's not had good hoof care. Had a qh with some like that ; he foxhunted until he was in his mid 20's!! And he had sidebone! So what!!
I support you efforts at opinion gathering; can't hurt to gather! I'm just sorry your "professional" staff aren't helping you enough or to your satisfaction.
If your pasture is lush right now?....I think I'll hate you!!! :winkgrin::D

[Tree]

im sorry Tree, forgive me if we disagree on the soaking issue

http://www.equipodiatry.com/footsoak.htm

ETA - also, we are not talking about a healthy foot on this post.. right?

Some of what O'Grady described could readily apply to contracted hooves with retained dead sole....reference to flaking horn and spreading of feet.

He's entitled to his opinion but it would've been nice if he had provided photographic examples of what he was talking about.

Now that we're getting so much rain, my horses are basically "soaking" for over 2 weeks straight in their pastures...no dry ground. Their hooves are not falling apart and I'm talking about 15 head total (mixed breeds of horses and ponies).

The time a mare of mine was dealing with an abscess related hole in a front foot I had to keep a soaking boot on that foot for a week with a mixture of water and apple cider vinegar to keep the area clean and flushed as it healed. She remained out 24/7 with her herd and was too sore without something on that foot so the boot had to stay on or she wouldn't move around. Her foot didn't fall apart.

So there was something else going on and only O'Grady had the feet to see while we just read his opinion about them and I don't buy the idea that hooves are weakened enough to fall apart due to extended exposure to moisture. I do agree that soaking will soften hooves. During the prolonged drought, hooves were hard as rocks unless they had daily exposure to moisture of some sort...even manure packed in them was a blessing!

Oh and the OP's photos didn't show hooves that would become overly weakened from prolonged exposure to moisture. They did appear to have excess amounts of horn that would probably flake off if you went at them with a hoof pick but it would be stuff that needed to fall off rather than the hoof "falling apart" and being compromised, IMO.

Tree

[tidy rabbit]

I believe the anti-soaking is in direct reference to a foundering horse. Ice is good when the hoof is wrapped in plastic to keep the water off, but soaking a foundering foot could compromise it further.

[Jumpin_Horses]

opinion?????????

Tree - with all due respect..... you are making some big claims against a respected professional..... so, what exactly are your credentials? just curious is all.....

[marta]

that's not a foot sore horse.
even my gf's excitable arab showed discomfort when moving during a laminitic episode.

i don't think this is caused by foot pain.
and btw, his belly would likely look different if he was standing normal.

[tidy rabbit]

I'm with you Marta, my money is on some skeletal problem / spinal problem.

[BornToRide]

with all due respect BTR - this is what im talking about...... you cant give advise like this, what if you are WRONG?... what if the "attending veterinarian" is right and you are wrong?

Try me - I'd love to be wrong in this case, because none of the emergency measures will harm the horse. They can only help or worse do nothing! As the owner I would not want to wait for a vet to come who is hard to get a hold of and do anything I could possibly do to help! In such cases I'd rather be wrong than right anyway because of the pain those horses endure. :(

You seem to not know that as hoofcare professionals we work with horses like this on a regular basis and often even have to educate the vet about what approach is best, because they generally want to slap shoes on and lock the laminitic horses up and give no diet advise. That's far from being an "armchair" expert, would you not agree?

[Jumpin_Horses]

Try me - I'd love to be wrong in this case, because none of the emergency measures will harm the horse. They can only help or worse do nothing! As the owner I would not want to wait for a vet to come who is hard to get a hold of and do anything I could possibly do to help! In such cases I'd rather be wrong than right anyway because of the pain those horses endure. :(

you are recommending soaking (hosing soaks the foot), and movement (against the vets advise) for a possible founder (you have NO way of knowing)... yes, that can in fact harm the horse.... see the above link....

you speak of movement.. you have no way of knowing *HOW* that horse is moving..

If so, I'd
Also feel for digital pulse and heat in the hooves. Consider cold hosing the hooves as well. Movement will help pump that stagnating circulation and generally makes the horses feel better. I would not recommend confinement, which most vets tend to do.



How does he move? Very gingerly?

you cant make a treatment recommendation on if he is moving "gingerly"

movement without knowing the facts can cause trouble... esp. if there is a lot of heel pain (nav) toe first landings, or even a pelvic or spinal problem

ETA - also..... in fact, I AM a hoof care professional (currently a working professional, that is going through the certification process)... and as a professional, I would NOT recommend treatment for this animal without seeing it... there is WAY too much at stake here. this animal is going DOWNHILL... needs professional help on site...

BTW - can someone please point me to pics of this case?

EDITED: to explain more -

[BornToRide]

you are recommending soaking a possible founder (you have NO way of knowing)... yes, that can in fact harm the horse.... see the above link....

ETA - also..... in fact, I AM a hoof care professional... and as a professional, I would NOT recommend treatment for this animal without seeing it... there is WAY too much at stake here.

BTW - can someone please point me to pics of this case?
I did no such thing - I said soaking the hay and cold hosing the hooves, because cryotherapy has been found to considerably reduce the affects of laminitis and shortening the recovery time.

Any hoofcare professional should know this.

[pines4equines]

I agree with wateryglen: "TRY a different farrier..."

[GallopingGrape]

Thanks everyone.. all great thoughts. As most of you know, this isn't my horse, it belongs to my boarder who is not going to put another dime into him. If you knew what she paid for him 4 months ago, you wouldn't blame her. She is out of funds and not knowing what to do from here. Unfortunately horses like this end up in bad places when green riders, out of money and terrified of their horse.... get sold or given away. I can see it coming. I'm just trying to help before it gets that bad. I appreciate all of the "armchair" advice - it is all very helpful and thoughful. I'm learning alot. Funny - more than several of you have mentioned Animal Communicators in private messages (afraid to post that to the public?)... believe me, I'm tempted. If two vets are stumped and the owner is out of money... maybe there is some magic somewhere during this holiday time? Chrismas miracle from someone who talks to our great pets? You never know.....

[tidy rabbit]

Okay, I'll give you a reading from the great SWAMII Rabbit. It will cost 50 dollars. With that 50 bucks I'll go buy you a container of apple flavored bute and send it to you to feed to the horse for 2 months. :)

[GallopingGrape]

Ahhh! Swamii Rabbit! We're treating this fella for ulcers... so bute is out for now.... but thank you Swamii !!

[tidy rabbit]

LOL.

Okay, I'll send you injectable bute. :)

Really, I have references.... just ask around the BB. I've done this thing before and am certainly as creditable as any other horse psychic you'll find. :)

[marta]

why are you recommending the bute treatment for 2 months? i'm not disagreeing, i'm just curious as to why.

[tidy rabbit]

I'm not recommending anything, I'm just being a smart ass.

If it were my horse that had a mystery soreness issue I'd probably be trying to medicate it a little to give it some relief, but that's just me.

Back to your regularly scheduled program...

[tidy rabbit]

Okay, here's my real answer, I was going to PM you this Marta, but then decided why not post what I really think.... ???

I didn't see any place in the thread about this horse that they are addressing the horse's pain with any kind of bute or banamine or naproxine or whatever. Seems to me the horse should have some time off and some pain killers to give it a chance to recover a little bit. But, lots of folks disagree with that, and from the sounds of it, this is one of those situations... so I just thought I'd throw it out there as a smart ass comment! If some freeking bute would keep the horse from going to down the road to who knows where as the OP implied...

[marta]

i thought maybe you had some other reason and i wanted to hear it.
i agree that chronic pain can't be good. especially chronic pain that's resulting in that much discomfort.

wonder how his saddle fits? the only time my mare who is generally a lazy horse and rarely gets excited about anything showed signs of discomfort by bucking and running was when we had saddle fit issues.

[GallopingGrape]

The saddle fits good. Here is a message I just got from the boarder to give you an example what we're going thru:

(Boarder): I just am so fed up right now. He was a maniac today. I gave him a deep, long massage, massaged his face, he seemed to respond to the area in his jaws the most, really liked it.
Then I walked him down the lane and he was a MANIAC. he was worse than ever with me, shoving me, being disrespectful, BITING and trying to run me over,,, and I am sure he feels the vibes from me like heat, that I am now TERRIFIED of him; he's so unpredictable now. I no longer trust him in the least. In fact I am now looking over my shoulder when I am in the pasture with him- No more trust.


When I took him back into the pasture, the goat got out, so I went after him and while I was getting teh goat, Cloud went absolutely and totally WILD. He screamed, reared, whinnied, RAN so fast I thought he would hurt himself and came to a skidding stop about a foot away from the fence; I actually thought he'd jump the fence, or at least try to. It's "cute" that he is so attached to his goat, BUT Cloud's behavior is erratic and unstable and he is just so unpedictable. He tried to "charge" me in the field, I can't turn my back on him for fear he'll go after me.

[marta]

i'm starting to think whoever suggested the horse was drugged when you bought him was right.

it'd be hard enough to go through a personality change like that in a horse you've owned for a long time, but here this is a relatively new horse, you're just trying to establish a relationship with and this happens:confused:

i'm sorry for the horse. sounds like this owner gave up on him and is not going to invest any more $ or energy into this. so sad.

[Jumpin_Horses]

yea, that was me and, I think another person, who mentioned drugs, but, she said hed been at the trainers or something for a while now... but, then there are drugs that can cover up heavy testerone levels for like 6 months...

have you pulled blood and tested testerone levels? I forget if you answered that already... he doesnt sound lame... is he lame and running around like that?

im totally confused now...

sorry, I cant even speil sterone... testerone... testron... well you know... male hormones...

[marta]

she said he's sound at all 3 gaits.

[Jumpin_Horses]

she said he's sound at all 3 gaits.

oh, I thought we were dealing with a lame, camped out, foundered, nav, etc.. horse.....

perhaps, I should just step out of the conversation, because Im lost now...

[marta]

i knew a woman who got herself a TB who was sitting in the pasture most of his life. she rode him before she bought him and he was a slug. brought him home and about two months later he started bucking her off. he'd throw these crazy bucking bronco bucks. she eventually lost her confidence altogether and handed him over to the trainer to work with while she went overseas. the trainer worked w/ him and within a year this horse turned into a magnificent ride. jumping, flat work. he was beautiful. no bucking.

she had blood work done on him when she bought him but didn't test for drugs. but many people thought that maybe they withheld water, that apparently makes them "calmer" too.

[marta]

oh, I thought we were dealing with a lame, camped out, foundered, nav, etc.. horse.....

perhaps, I should just step out of the conversation, because Im lost now...

i think your confusion may stem from initial posts where some folks were suggesting foot pain but to me as soon as she said he was sound at all 3 gaits it became obvious that we're not dealing w/ foot pain.

[Tree]

oh, I thought we were dealing with a lame, camped out, foundered, nav, etc.. horse.....

perhaps, I should just step out of the conversation, because Im lost now...

I feel the same way. I recall mention that he was non-reactive to hoof testers. His stance isn't right, of course. Atypical for founder but those hind feet are certainly suspect with how the toe walls are stretching forward, likely the result of the unnatural placement of his hinds when standing. They're more than likely rotated in the mechanical sense but it sounds like the owner is scared of him and done. I don't need another project on my place so I will not be volunteering to give him home. If he's put down, I would strongly suggest a necropsy to get down to the bottom of this mystery.

Tree

[rcloisonne]

but, then there are drugs that can cover up heavy testerone levels for like 6 months...
Really? Like what?

[Jumpin_Horses]

Really? Like what?

I will have to ask my friend.. I work with her, and now she is gone for the holiday, but, I will ask her when she gets back...

she bought a really nice horse, a "kids horse".... had him a few months, he did great. kids rode him bareback/lead rope/halter all over the place, and one day he just changed.. turned into a monster

vet pulled blood and found a huge amount of testerone pumping through him.. he was a crypt. they did an ultrasound and found one deep in the cavity.

the vet said he was probably given something......... argh...... I cant remember the name...... to cover it up..

my friend was lucky that her daughter wasnt killed by this horse.. he was SO bad, that they just put him down... he was completely out of his head.

ETA - okay I was wrong about the timing.... I just called my friend. she said they found out about him in like a month, and the vet told her she could put him on this "hormone therapy" drug (she couldnt remember the name either), but, she would have to give it to him monthly....

I guess this is what happens when you come in the middle of 2 conversations.....

[Tree]

opinion?????????

Tree - with all due respect..... you are making some big claims against a respected professional..... so, what exactly are your credentials? just curious is all.....

Big claims? What big claims? I'd say it is O'Grady making the claims. I'm just not agreeing with them. ;)

I don't like it when people, in this case O'Grady, talk about things without showing examples. And yes I understand he is "somebody" in the Vet/Farrier world. I even saw him on Down Under Horsemanship recently. :) However, he's still a human with opinions based on what he knows. Again, it's too bad he didn't provide visuals to show what he was observing.

Tree

[luvmywalkers]

So what causes a horse to stand so camped under? I've said this before, but when the farrier pulls up one leg to trim, all three feet touch. I swear he is going to fall over.

2 of mine would stand that way when they suffered from severe sole bruising. The fact that he stands more so on concrete than on grass makes that a good possibility.

[GallopingGrape]

The vet found sole bruises on his fronts about 5 weeks ago, but as of 12/8, the farrier didn't see them anymore.... This photo was taken yesterday.

[Tree]

The vet found sole bruises on his fronts about 5 weeks ago, but as of 12/8, the farrier didn't see them anymore.... This photo was taken yesterday.


All 4's or just some of the feet?

BTW, no photo.

Tree

[GallopingGrape]

No just the fronts.... i dont have photos of the bruises... all of the photos are earlier in this post.

[Tree]

No just the fronts.... i dont have photos of the bruises... all of the photos are earlier in this post.

I must have missed something. What did you mean by this: "This photo was taken yesterday"?

Tree

[GallopingGrape]

I'm sorry, I was referring to my original photos here....
http://www.flickr.com/photos/33539893@N08/?saved=1

[GallopingGrape]

What are the symptoms for Lymes?

[KatieD]

I found this list of symptoms on the 'feedscoop.com' site.

Poor energy levels.
Stiffness, muscle pain.
Shifting leg lameness
Swelling of multiple joints
Edema or eye inflammation
Irritability and body wide sensitivity to being touched.
Skin problems
Poor response to bute

[luvmywalkers]

The vet found sole bruises on his fronts about 5 weeks ago, but as of 12/8, the farrier didn't see them anymore.... This photo was taken yesterday.

Did the bruises disappear on their own or did they abscess? Did you treat the bruises?
What happened to the left front?
Have you had rads taken of the fronts?

[GallopingGrape]

No, the bruises disappeared on their own. Yes, we had radiographs taken (xrays?) of the navicular two months ago. What do you mean, what happened to the left front?
He does not appear to be lame at any gait.... this is behavioral issues, that I think is coming from a pain that I can't find. Although this morning, he "freaked out" in his paddock, so badly that I had to take the goat out for fear of him running the goat over. He was running, bucking, screaming and, I thought was going to jump the fence... the other two horses across the fence were just standing there watching him freak out - so it wasnt like there was something on the farm that was exciting everyone. He was so freaked out, he was shaking from head to to.... literally, I could watch his head vibrate - for absolutely no reason that I could see. I couldn't get near him to settle him down, he'd just drop his head and charge at me or whatever was in his way. He almost ran dead on into a tree. This all lasted about 3 minutes. Never seen anything like it. Ever.

[Chall]

Does he ever try to press his head against a surface?

[Tree]

Does he ever hang his head low looking like he's depressed?

Years ago some friends had a horse that suddenly began acting strange. Sometimes he would be found standing in his stall with his head facing the darkest corner and low. They ended up having to euthanize him and did have a necropsy performed and a brain tumor was found.

Tree

[Peter026]

Does he ever hang his head low looking like he's depressed?

Years ago some friends had a horse that suddenly began acting strange. Sometimes he would be found standing in his stall with his head facing the darkest corner and low. They ended up having to euthanize him and did have a necropsy performed and a brain tumor was found.

Tree

This is what I was going to suggest, all the latest symptoms posted point to this.

[morganmare]

We have a horse at my barn that will just like your boarder's horse, but will W/T/C normally also. She has been diagnosed with a stifle problem. She gets injections in her stifles every 6 months now. When she gets her injections she will no longer stand just like that and seems to be happier overall.

[pines4equines]

Can we revisit the second cut hay? Can you do a test? One week put him on 1st cut and take away all grain even if it's vites and mins. Just a test to see if it's feed at all. Then we can go from there.

(If all are fed together then put all on 1st cut for one week, it's not going to hurt them.)

I have a TB who was in good weight. His favorite mare died and we put everyone on TC COMplete. He lost alot of weight due to I think the mare being gone and TC Complete is probably too low cal for him. (HE is a weaver and a cribber so that's part of it.) So I jacked him up on alfalfa and Strategy and he was a maniac. We cut that out and he's back to being a sweet horse. We'll do other things for weight gain (don't worry, I'll do a search - tons of threads on hard keeper TBs in here!)

Cheapest thing first: Cut out the second cut and all grain and see how he is in one week. Then try the other things. It'll be cheaper for you as a BO anyway.

[GallopingGrape]

Good news.. the boarder agreed to try a third opinion. Vet is coming out next week and doing a full work up, pull blood, test for Lymes, IR, EPM, the works. She said she'd give one more vet and one more day of expenses to determine what's happening to this fella... keep your fingers crossed....

[luvmywalkers]

Good news.. the boarder agreed to try a third opinion. Vet is coming out next week and doing a full work up, pull blood, test for Lymes, IR, EPM, the works. She said she'd give one more vet and one more day of expenses to determine what's happening to this fella... keep your fingers crossed....

Good idea, and while you're at it get a different farrier to look at them.

You mentioned earlier that they display this camped under stance only on the concrete, and bruises were already found several weeks ago. This is really red flag no. 1.

You also mentioned that this happened when you changed farriers. Red flag no. 2.

This stance is very typical for horses that are very sore on usually the fronts. You said their gaites haven't changed (eventhough they did apparently on Bachus); they wear boots when being ridden? Are they being ridden without boots on concrete?

Both are more than likely low grade laminitic. On one of them I can't see the depth of the sole, the other doesn't appear to have a lot of sole. With or without bruises, that can make their soles pretty tender. On grass they wouldn't show the problem much, if at all, but on concrete or gravel that can cause a good deal of pain.

That is something you can easily and cheaply check: When taking them to the concrete, let their fronts stand on a piece of memory foam (can't begin to tell you how many pillows I've cut up). Pick up a foot and look for the stance. You may have to do it a few times, because by now they will have the expectation of pain.

[BornToRide]

Good news.. the boarder agreed to try a third opinion. Vet is coming out next week and doing a full work up, pull blood, test for Lymes, IR, EPM, the works. She said she'd give one more vet and one more day of expenses to determine what's happening to this fella... keep your fingers crossed....if they test for IR, make sure they get a glucose AND and insulin level. Just having one does not provide enough info. The ratio between the two determines whether or not a horse is IR. Here's a handy calculator: http://www.freil.com/~mlf/IR/ir.html