Where is Racing Going ??

[Equinoxfox]

With all these post of different tracks closing and changing the footing . What is going to happen to these wonderful horses.. They keep breeding and the tracks keep closing .. what is going on here?
Any thoughts on this ?:confused:

[Blinkers On]

I believe we are in crisis.

[Glimmerglass]

The upside for Illinois TB racing (Hawthorne, Arlington, Fairmont) is that G-Fraud signed on Monday an extension of the law - yet to ever be paid out - which redistributes 3% of Illinois casino gross revenue to horse racing. (http://horseracing.sportsline.com/cbs/headlines/showarticle.aspx?articleId=32838)

If the US Supreme Court rejects hearing the appeal of the Casinos who are challenging the surcharge - brokered long ago to compensate the tracks for the invading casinos - then there is a substantial windfall in escrow ready to go to the tracks.

[Calamber]

That's the ticket! I pray that this passes and that other states follow suit. Thank you for the news!

[DickHertz]

Where is Racing Going?

In the toilet if there isn't one racing commission overseeing everyone from Blue Ribbon Downs to Wyoming Downs to Belmont Park and having brutally harsh sentences for trainers who cheat. Also, there must be more money put into testing horses for drugs like EPO.

[summerhorse]

Circling the drain unless a whole lot of people wake up and smell the coffee! (can I fit ONE more cliche in there?? =)

[Equinoxfox]

So tell me . IF there is so much talk and discussion about the future of racing why are so many Breeders , & Trainers still breeding horses. What is going to happen to those animals. ? There seems to be so many already out there and to me that is why we have the auction pens, the slaughter houses, and just a over whelming amount of TB's all over the place. :confused:

[Barnfairy]

Change takes time.

It will speed up a little if consequences are serious enough and enforced.

[SleepyFox]

People are still breeding because we need a new crop of young horses each year. In addition to some tracks closing, new ones are opening (Presque Isle for example). Plus, a lot of the screaming about tracks closing is really a leverage tool (think back to Ellis Park - I know it was posted here that they were closing, but that was a bargaining ploy).

Yeah, CA is having some problems and I really feel for those folks, but most of that is due to some really dumb management decisions and what appears to be a real lack of good leadership. Florida and Texas have some work to do and purses are pretty weak. But, other places are doing really well. I race in Louisiana and purses are strong, there are plans to build a new track and they're trying to get racing at one of the training centers, too. And, that's all good because we could use more races. It's all about perspective and I wouldn't worry about a bunch of horses winding up homeless any time soon.

Racing does NOT need governmental regulation. That's not going to solve anything except make DickHertz happy briefly.

[Barnfairy]

There's a beautifully written article in the Horse newsletter today which mirrors my stance:

Making Racing Safer (http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=12418)
In times of crisis we look for quick answers, and we cry out for leadership. There are calls for a national governing body to take responsibility and legislate compliance. The hard truth is that we are all responsible for these injuries. Every day, decisions are made by all segments of the industry that affect the safety and welfare of the horse. We can't legislate responsibility. We all need to make safety and welfare of the horse our number one priority. The question is not "What is 'the industry' doing to eliminate catastrophic injuries?"; rather ask yourself, "What am I doing to make racing safer for our horses and riders?" --Scott Palmer, VMD (You have to be registered to read the entire article; it's free.)

[Equinoxfox]

GREAT thanks for letting us know . I will surely read that . Being that it is pouring here today and can't get out with the ponies. Besides all my holiday shopping is done .nothing better than to do except read good Horse related articles.;)

[texang73]

Good article. I agree with all of what he says...

So, what will it take? Harsher penalties? Publishing a list of offenders in DRF? Fees taken out of winnings for retirement funds?

I don't know the answer, but I like all those ideas... :cool:

[Equilibrium]

So tell me . IF there is so much talk and discussion about the future of racing why are so many Breeders , & Trainers still breeding horses. What is going to happen to those animals. ? There seems to be so many already out there and to me that is why we have the auction pens, the slaughter houses, and just a over whelming amount of TB's all over the place. :confused:


1st off there's many horses all over the place. OTTB's are more in the forefront because people actually are now trying to do the right thing by them.

As for why are people still breeding them, most of my breeder friends are not breeding any to not breeding as many next year. I only have 2 mares I am breeding next year and that's it. The mares are a pleasure to have around anyway and cost little to keep empty. And as an added bonus because they're broken, they can be ridden to keep them occupied. Who knows, hunting or riding club activities might beckon as well!

As far as racing is concerned, it's pretty bleak over here too.

Terri

[Glimmerglass]

California and racing almost seem to be parting ways with racing options by 2011 exceptionally limited :(

Hollywood Park, always under threat, looks like this maybe the year to be lost just as mutually owned Bay Meadows was. The assorted fairs continue to exist in the summer but for how long with that exemption from the synthetic mandates?

Now Magna on the verge of a collapse looks to be willing to part with Golden Gate Fields (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/12/19/BA8514Q2CP.DTL):

It's unclear whether the Albany track would be among those put on the block, and if so, be sold as a racetrack business or simply as real estate.

My guess like Hollywood Park - sold for around $250M - could only find buyers for the use as developed real estate. I don't see investors flush with cash hot for buying a race track in this era.

Thus California TB racing fans, trainers, owners and horses could be left with just the limited use boutique-track of DelMar and Santa Anita/Oak Tree.

I wouldn't be shocked to see in the next 10 years many other tracks lost forever. With fewer racing tracks the sport will have to shrink with the number of horses being bred to race.

[grits]

Maybe the gloomiest barometer of all is the number (and calibre) of farms (http://www.justicerealestate.net/propertyindex.html)on the market in Kentucky. And, of course, the prices are crashing - although they have a long way to go before they reach my budget.

[QHJockee]

Perhaps this economic situation will encourage breeders to cut back. Lessen the numb er of horses out there and cut out the crappy low end breeding. I know for one we are not breeding a single mare next year. It is just too expensive to feed the number of horses we have. Going to keep back our best 4 (of 9) mares and give them a year off.

Keep in mind racing has been through troubled times before. We will weather the storm as we have in times past.

[Equinoxfox]

Yes I am sure about weathering the storm. BUT my main concern is what about all these horses that are here now. You know the ones that are done at the tracks. what will happen to them. we are doing away with the Slaughter houses. We are trying to get rid of the crazy Amish who run the Auction Barns. But we still will have a influx of horses that need to leave the track. the economy with the way it is . Will make it hard for everyday people to do any type of adoption or buying .
So with that being said... When they are now done at the track and ready for a new career. what will happen.
Many breeders are cutting back on their breeding programs. And not having large foal crops next spring.
But that is not the end all to this problem. there must be a solution out there someplace.
Am I not seeing the full picture here. or what?:confused:

[Lady Counselor]

Maybe the gloomiest barometer of all is the number (and calibre) of farms (http://www.justicerealestate.net/propertyindex.html)on the market in Kentucky. And, of course, the prices are crashing - although they have a long way to go before they reach my budget.

Dibs on Rivendell Farm!
*drooling icon*

[SleepyFox]

We are trying to get rid of the crazy Amish who run the Auction Barns. :

Okay, this begs the question: WHAT? What is this plan to erradicate the Amish? And, why?

But that is not the end all to this problem. there must be a solution out there someplace.
Am I not seeing the full picture here. or what?

No, with all due respect, you are not seeing the full picture. From what I gather from your post, you would like to see fewer horses bred so that there are, in turn, fewer retiring horses. And, you're displeased with the number of horses in training now because they may have trouble finding a home when they retire? May I remind you that the TB racing industry is the single most proactive horse industry out there when it comes to rehoming it's horses. I don't see any big efforts to rehome futurity cutting horses or aging halter geldings, etc. We (the majority of us in this business) will continue our rehoming efforts and continue to seek to improve those efforts and will probably continue to outpace other industries in this area. So, I don't know what you mean by "a solution."

[Equinoxfox]

Hey SleepyFox: Just help me to understand. We continue to breed tons of new foals each year. We continue to have horses retiring each year. And tons of those go to those horrible places and never get a better chance at life.
I am just trying to understand , grasp, and realize why & how the industry could and should make changes.
I am not sure I understand why so many foals are bred each year instead of just a few per breeder. It seems the industry might be saturated with horses each year.
such a cycle to me .. :confused:

[BansheeBreeze]

maybe scaling down in the long run will be a better thing. Back when the gene pool was smaller and there were fewer tracks, you had more of the top horses competeing against each other. you had actual rivalries, not so many horses ducking out to run at a boondock track for an inflated purse. you'll also end up with a better gene pool if people won't be breeding tons and tons of cheap horses, which will be a short term issue with new OTTB's, but better long run.

[GollyGee]

When we finally see the light and geld horses who are unsound and can only run until 3 maybe we will get back our sound tough long running horses. When we limit the number of foals registered in a given year to a stallion, When we say NO to mares who are unraced or have lackluster careers.
When we stop pushing 2yr olds to go faster sooner.

Amish?? don't get the refrence but sorry guys there has to be an aesthetically, socially acceptal form of euthinasia and transport to slaughter.
There will never be enough homes or after race use for all of the TB horses out there.
But if they were sounder, saner,less surgically as babies chemically as older horses ruined and the influx of WB's stop flooding out show rings maybe these fabulous athletes would find there way back intothe show ring.

[WhiteCamry]

When we finally see the light and geld horses who are unsound and can only run until 3 maybe we will get back our sound tough long running horses. When we limit the number of foals registered in a given year to a stallion, When we say NO to mares who are unraced or have lackluster careers.
When we stop pushing 2yr olds to go faster sooner.

Amish?? don't get the refrence but sorry guys there has to be an aesthetically, socially acceptal form of euthinasia and transport to slaughter.
There will never be enough homes or after race use for all of the TB horses out there.
But if they were sounder, saner,less surgically as babies chemically as older horses ruined and the influx of WB's stop flooding out show rings maybe these fabulous athletes would find there way back intothe show ring.

Or tracks could run longer races with bigger purses. Trainers would then find horses to win them, and then breeders would breed to sell for them. 12f races are common outside North America but try telling that to anyone in the industry here.

[WhiteCamry]

maybe scaling down in the long run will be a better thing. Back when the gene pool was smaller and there were fewer tracks, you had more of the top horses competeing against each other. you had actual rivalries, not so many horses ducking out to run at a boondock track for an inflated purse. you'll also end up with a better gene pool if people won't be breeding tons and tons of cheap horses, which will be a short term issue with new OTTB's, but better long run.

When in the past were there fewer tracks? NYC once had four race tracks all within 30 minutes' train ride from midtown Manhattan; now there's just Big Sandy and the Big A. And the Meadowlands, too, if anyone ever remembers they run t-breds there during Saratoga season.

At any rate, rivalries between top horses developed because they ran more frequently and for longer periods, and that only was because there was more money in running horses than in breeding them. Only when the income from breeding fees and yearling auctions took off for the moon did fewer quality 4-y-o's run, and purses for handicaps and distance races suffered accordingly.

[DickHertz]

A state of where we are...

I entered a bottom NW/2 horse last week going 6 furlongs and there were 39 horsees entered.

I saw the next day, the same condition going 1 1/16 had 9 horses.

A microcosm of where racing is headed...

I remember back in July I had a claimer that really needed to go 1 1/8 and wouldn't you know it, for the first time in my life they had written a 1 1/8 race. I thought "there has to be others who have horses who need the extra ground". I called at 10:30 to get a rundown and, you guessed it, one horse (my horse) was the only one entered...can you say "frustrated"?

[DickHertz]

I do give Mountaineer props for their successful Marathon Series. It's a starter allowance series that runs through the whole year. They start out at a regular route distance and the length gets longer as the year goes on. I believe they finish with a 2 mile race.

And if I'm not mistaken, it was part of this series some 5-7 years ago that Dana Whitney rode a mile and 3/4 race as if it was 3/4 race (he was in front by a half mile the first time under the wire).

[Equinoxfox]

Hey Dick Hertz : I am not too keen with the Racing Industry. ( I am a Hunter person) . But I am just coureous as to why and what the breeders are thinking of this economy and why they do so much breeding .
what will happen to so many unwanted , non producing race horses.
any thoughts.:confused:

[WhiteCamry]

I do give Mountaineer props for their successful Marathon Series. It's a starter allowance series that runs through the whole year. They start out at a regular route distance and the length gets longer as the year goes on. I believe they finish with a 2 mile race.

And if I'm not mistaken, it was part of this series some 5-7 years ago that Dana Whitney rode a mile and 3/4 race as if it was 3/4 race (he was in front by a half mile the first time under the wire).

Kudos to Mountaineer for running races like those.:) I only wish NYRA or the MJC had something similar.

Are there any links to the Marathon Series, or about Dana Whitney?

[SleepyFox]

A state of where we are...

I entered a bottom NW/2 horse last week going 6 furlongs and there were 39 horsees entered.

I saw the next day, the same condition going 1 1/16 had 9 horses.

A microcosm of where racing is headed...

Most of the breeders I know realize that (at least in La) distance races are a weak spot right now and are specifically breeding to fill that niche. Same thing with turf. I expect to see things shift over the next few years here.

How frequently are races oversubscribing for you guys, Dick? I always see that as a good sign (a pain in the butt when you need to run, but a sign people definitely have horses to run).

[Equinoxfox]

So with the changes coming about. What is going to happen to our local tracks here. Colonial Downs in Virginia, Bowie & Laurel in Maryland . And what about Penn National are there any changes to that place also ?:confused:

[DickHertz]

Hey Dick Hertz : I am not too keen with the Racing Industry. ( I am a Hunter person) . But I am just coureous as to why and what the breeders are thinking of this economy and why they do so much breeding .
what will happen to so many unwanted , non producing race horses.
any thoughts.:confused:

Most breeders, in my opinion, look at how a sire combined with their dam will produce a precocious, good looking foal, which eventually may bring a good penny at the auctions. They could care less how many times that sire ran or it's distance limitations. I know a commercial breeder in Florida very well who always talks in a completely different language than what horseman on the backside talk about. The breeders are in a completely different world. I did say "most" becasue this is not "all" breeders.

For example, it drives me nuts when people breed to a horse like Tapit or Toccet who either raced under 10 races or had all sorts of soundess issues - okay, now everyone will comment on how sore (blank) sire of sires was during their racing career - but the bottom line is genes are genes and when the stock breeding today:
- Fact: Were raced on steroids which is proved to decrease tendon and ligament strength
- Fact: Producing horses with less bone density
- Fact: Sires today can't run as far as the old sires

You are not going to have a breed which can run a route of ground in the future. I think that you'll see 1 race per card going a route of ground in 10 years time.

[DickHertz]

How frequently are races oversubscribing for you guys, Dick? I always see that as a good sign (a pain in the butt when you need to run, but a sign people definitely have horses to run).


Well, considering there's been about a dozen cancellations the past month, quite frequently. Generally, when racing isn't being cancelled, there are 5 races per card which have 15-20 horses entered and the other 4 races have between 8-12. Penn National generally gets 100-105 horses in the body of races for a 9 race card (11.1 horses per race)

[WhiteCamry]

...
- Fact: Sires today can't run as far as the old sires

You are not going to have a breed which can run a route of ground in the future. I think that you'll see 1 race per card going a route of ground in 10 years time.
Which brings the tracks into the equation. If more of them ran routes for bigger money we'd see more horses with stamina for distances. Anywhere outside North America a 12f race is a typical weekly, if not daily, feature.

[Equinoxfox]

WOW ... I DID NOT KNOW THOSE FACTS. ;)

[SleepyFox]

So with the changes coming about. What is going to happen to our local tracks here. Colonial Downs in Virginia, Bowie & Laurel in Maryland . And what about Penn National are there any changes to that place also ?:confused:

What changes are you speaking of? This thread has kind of wandered around, which is why I'm confused.

Most breeders, in my opinion, look at how a sire combined with their dam will produce a precocious, good looking foal, which eventually may bring a good penny at the auctions. They could care less how many times that sire ran or it's distance limitations.

In my opinion, only the most short-sighted breeders don't care what they are putting on the ground. The only way to build value in your mare -and her subsequent foals - is to produce foals that can race, win and stay sound enough to do well. And, as more and more breeders are breeding for breeder's awards (like in Pa...) they are more and more motivated to put a sound horse on the ground.

[Equinoxfox]

Hey Sleepy Fox: Okay back on track here. LOL
with this saturated market of young stock. prospects, and racing age horses Why not take a break from breeding and just put to good use the horses that are already here and see where the industry stands. Why not take a year of no breeding and get all these other horses going , schooling , racing , or retired instead of the continous cycle that I see. It really boggles my mind at how so MANY TB's are born each year. How so MANY breakdown and are destroyed. How so MANY get retired and have no place to go?
that is the MOST important part to me. Finding homes for all these unwanted, over -raced retired horses.?? Explain that one please...:confused:

[BansheeBreeze]

It's a vicious circle and one that will take far too many people to stop. Everybody is really at fault. You have breeders who focus on sellability rather than producing a sound horse. But you have the buyers who look for speed over soundness. So what is a breeder supposed to do? If they don't produce for the market, they won't be in business anymore. Hard enough as it is. What is a buyer supposed to do? Pick the slower but possibly sounder horse that won't win as many races/$ and still may get injured? Why do we hav all these "2 year old statistics" on all the stallion information? Why is it so important?

You have sellers who perform surgeries to alter a horses' conformation so it will be sellable. Nevermind the consequences when the horse runs, nor the fact that he will still be producing crooked legged foals. You have racetracks carding mostly sprint races and rich, early 2 year old races. But they are the only ones that fill. Because the breeders breed for speed because it's what sells because it's where the money is at.

Most stables used to breed their own stock to race, so they had much more invested. Simply put, they were breeding RACEHORSES that would be used in their future breeding program. Now we are breeding horses for the glitz of a sales ring. But where does it end?

[omare]

Just curious--but how much of the sprinter vs stayer is breeding/genetics and how much is training? I mainly wonder as I am addicted to looking at Canter mares and so many have low dosage and CDIs and yet are at the cheap tracks where sprinting would seem to be where the bread and butter is to pay the bills. -- I have wondered whether some of these mares just needed to run further....(I realize they may just be plodders..)

(Just as a note--I feel sad when I see these mares that are hard hitting having earned 100-200,000 the hard way and realize they have no commercial value--yet in the "old days" of mom and pop trainer/breeders where homebreds were raced-- they would have a place in that persons breeding program and would have decent sound hard hitting purse earning babies...is there a place for that type of mare anymore? Or is the small owner/trainer financially and otherwise (cant get stalls) squeezed out?

[Laurierace]

Hey Sleepy Fox: Okay back on track here. LOL
with this saturated market of young stock. prospects, and racing age horses Why not take a break from breeding and just put to good use the horses that are already here and see where the industry stands. Why not take a year of no breeding and get all these other horses going , schooling , racing , or retired instead of the continous cycle that I see. It really boggles my mind at how so MANY TB's are born each year. How so MANY breakdown and are destroyed. How so MANY get retired and have no place to go?
that is the MOST important part to me. Finding homes for all these unwanted, over -raced retired horses.?? Explain that one please...:confused:


Exactly how many break down and are destroyed? Exactly how many are retired and have no place to go? Exactly how many are unwanted and over raced? Your mind may be boggled but that doesn't excuse the fact that you have no clue as to the answers to the above questions.
If it is the MOST important part to you, DO something about it. I placed 20 horses into adoptive homes this year. How many did you place? BTW not a single one of the belonged to me. If each of us found homes for 20 horses each year we would run out of horses at the tracks.

[Jessi P]

Last night Mountaineer ran the last distance series race of the year. Each race during the series gets a little longer and the last is always the longest - last night's race was 2 miles and a 1/16. And for a $30k purse! The horses were spread out a country mile.... showing that a good distance horse can still make some good $$. IF, as Dick said - you can get the race to go/fill.

I watched that one race live - the 1 3/4 mile race - it was hysterical (since I didnt have a horse in there). Dana (was it Dana?) and a bug rider were out in front whipping and driving turning for home the first time.. Darren would remember which bug it was, anyway, they went race riding down the lane, passed the finish line then at the 7 furlong pole (the first time) they started pulling up and heading to the outside, and all the other jocks went past them on the rail. The gate guys and outriders yelled at them they had another turn to go and you could almost see the bubble over their heads saying "Oh $hit!" as they re-gathered their reins, headed back to the rail and sat back down to ride another 3/4 of a mile. The older more experienced rider (who should have known better but we all make mistakes) automatically kicked into competitive riding mode when the younger bug rider went to whipping and driving next to him turning for home the first time.

Last night the race ran in 3:46 - 10 seconds off the track record of 3:36 for the distance. Not bad considering they run that specific distance just once a year. ;)

[Jessi P]

Just asked D and he is pretty sure the bug rider in that 1 3/4 race was Alex Marcial (possibly his brother Benji but pretty sure it was Alex).

[Equinoxfox]

hey there.. Hope You ALL have a safe and Happy New Year... Look forward to more conversations/ chats in the new year.
Maybe I can meet some of you all that the local tracks and learn as much as you all know.
I know nothing about racing BUT I must say I am so thrilled to be talking to all of you . THANKS for sharing your Knowledge with me:D

[DickHertz]

Just asked D and he is pretty sure the bug rider in that 1 3/4 race was Alex Marcial (possibly his brother Benji but pretty sure it was Alex).

I remember the context of the comment, one you don't see very often, for the horse Dana was riding:

"Rider misjudged race distance" (or something to that effect)

I guess everyone makes big/stupid mistakes in their lives, but not looking at the distance of the race is a big mistake. He is a good rider, though.

[BansheeBreeze]

Just curious--but how much of the sprinter vs stayer is breeding/genetics and how much is training? I mainly wonder as I am addicted to looking at Canter mares and so many have low dosage and CDIs and yet are at the cheap tracks where sprinting would seem to be where the bread and butter is to pay the bills. -- I have wondered whether some of these mares just needed to run further....(I realize they may just be plodders..)



Well from barns I've worked at, most racehorses gallop about 1-1 3/8 miles in their morning workouts, no matter what the distance they are planning on racing(one guy who is a leading trainer, gallops EVERY horse 1 1/4 miles). Some don't really even jog to warm up and if they do, it's usually not more than a half mile. So how can you really expect a horse to be fit enough to be in a race of 1 1/8 or longer? Doesn't make much sense. We had a couple horses that were distance runners but it was so tough finding races for them. One could literally run all day, but we had to ship him all over the country to find races. But when we did, the purses were good and he made alot of money.

Isn't sprint racing harder on horses too? because they are maintaining high speed for longer distance rather than galloping along and driving at the end? Maybe our horses would stay sounder with longer races.....

[Jessi P]

I remember the context of the comment, one you don't see very often, for the horse Dana was riding:

"Rider misjudged race distance" (or something to that effect)

I guess everyone makes big/stupid mistakes in their lives, but not looking at the distance of the race is a big mistake. He is a good rider, though.

I remember that comment "rider misjudged distance" - you are right - you hardly ever see that comment! Dana felt really stupid afterwords and said he KNEW the race was further but when the bug boy came up next to him whipping and driving his brain kicked into "down the lane" mode and he screwed up.

Dana is indeed a very good rider and before I took down our win pics to paint the living room he was in most of them. We consider ourselves extremely fortunate to be able to get one of the top jocks. Dana and DeShawn are going to Oaklawn to ride out the winter months from what I hear - that is "home" for Dana. It sucks to lose 2 top riders but it does open things up a little for some other riders to get some good oppty's. Last month Nathan Vickers won for us on Loveable Lo - he is a good, hungry rider.

[Glimmerglass]

California and racing almost seem to be parting ways with racing options by 2011 exceptionally limited :(

Thus California TB racing fans, trainers, owners and horses could be left with just the limited use boutique-track of DelMar and Santa Anita/Oak Tree.

I wouldn't be shocked to see in the next 10 years many other tracks lost forever. With fewer racing tracks the sport will have to shrink with the number of horses being bred to race.

One more Fair track to cease after 2009: Solano County Fair (Vallejo CA) - after 60-years - will cease horse-racing (http://blogs.pressdemocrat.com/default.asp?item=2312784)

"I know it's a sensitive issue. There are people who cannot understand how after 59 years of live racing, we could be losing it." Barkett said a variety of factors have led to the decline in horse racing including off-site and Internet betting, Indian casinos attracting gamblers and an aging population of those betting on horses.