Any other nutritional support for Cushing's horses?

[LMH]

So once you get the basics taken care of-low sugar/low NSC/low starch...low everything yummy,

then balance the minerals,

then add some amino acids for 'good protein'

What else do you do?

I have been reading about Vitamin E and C...

Does anyone give any super immune support supplements?

Just curious if there is something else.

[BornToRide]

Have you checked out the Yahoo Cushings group? They have tons of good info on this subject :yes:

[draftdriver]

I'm supplementing with a Chromium/Magnesium/cinnamon product, plus Chasteberry. For my mare, the Chasteberry seems to have made a positive difference. She also receives pergolide, and Selenium/Vit. E supplement. Only just enough concentrates to get the supplements into her (about 4 forage cubes and 2 tbsp of fat-and-fibre pellets). I feed lots of hay at this time of year, and I haven't gone to the extreme of having it tested. That is just over and beyond what any hay supplier here could deal with -- trying to keep batches of hay from each field separate in storage, etc.

[LMH]

Chasteberry-maybe that is the missing piece. I pulled him off of it recently but will try it again.

Polo looks like hell. It is like this downhill slide before he stabilizes then downhill again.

I guess this is the joy of Cushings?

He has an abscess brewing and was SO painful I left him in and today he is swollen up past his knee on one leg and the other 3 are quite fluid filled.

His coat gets curlier by the day and now he is swinging the opposite of his IR fat self-now he looks thinner by the day.:confused:

He still eats though-good appetite! That must be a good sign.

How do you people do this with Cushing's horses. :no:

[Katy Watts]

How much pergolide is he on? As per Dr. Mark Donaldson, the average effective dose is 3 mg. My old mare did fine on 1 mg for several years, and now she is perkier and more normal acting on 2 mg. She has always been the alpha mare from heck, and when she gets mellow and lethargic, it is NOT normal. Lately, on cold mornings, her bucking fits are quite spectacular, and she snakes her neck at everyone with an evil face. That's my mare.

[LMH]

Katy-that is still a work in progress.

When he first started he did 1mg...that showed no change except he became a bit aggressive...dropped it but his coat became worse....

So tried it again and he became VERY depressed and then aggressive-crazy mood swings...again on 1mg.

Now he is on 2 mg and the mood swings are mellowing but he just looks...like crap.

He is almost 23yo, his withers are 16.1-2 (his body is not even close to that anymore)...and I am lost on his weight. He used to be about 1250 but he has changed so much I could not even guess.

Polo has never been moody his entire life. He is a very cool, calm and passive herd leader, never spooky or sensitive and the perfect gentleman.

On perg he is quite sensitive and spooky, swings between VERY lethargic and depressed then goes VERY aggressive and territorial.

When he does this, my choice was cut it back or get rid of it-but maybe the trouble is actually he needs more to peak the cliff, if you will.

Very confusing stuff this balancing act is.

[BornToRide]

His coat gets curlier by the day and now he is swinging the opposite of his IR fat self-now he looks thinner by the day.:confused:

Yes, it can be rather challenging - typically the more IR a horse becomes the harder it is for the insulin to get nutrition into the cells, hence the weight loss. I hope you can get him more balanced soon. Best wishes!

[Katy Watts]

LMH,
So, it appears that your choice is to let the damage from out of control PPID devastate him physically, or get used to him acting different. 'Balancing' his diet is not a substitute for proper medication. How long did you stick it out? Sometimes it takes a bit for them to settle down to their 'regular' personality.
Recently someone told me that when they raised their horse's pergolide to 2 mgs, he started bucking. Said 'he never bucked before'. Well I have ridden with them 3X and he bucked every time, even on 1 mg. Maybe he didn't buck then, but he bucks now at 22. Might have something to do with sore hocks.
The point is- why does everyone want to blame pergolide for everything that happens to their old horse? Old horses change, just like old people. My mare happens to stay more the same when I increased her pergolide.
Another thing I think needs to be considered is that frequently when horses start to feel really good after they have felt bad for a long time, they may be more playful. Bucking and blowing us off might be considered 'aggressive' or might just mean they feel good enough to be 'bad'. I remember I was thrilled when my 'non-bucking' mare bucked when I refused to let her run under saddle when she wanted to, 6 months after being down and flat out with founder. But then she is always a tad ornery, so again I considered it normal, rather than aggressive. I was letting her get away with too much because she was 'sick'. I wonder if some of this 'aggression' I hear about might also be from cutting them too much slack because they are old and sick. YMMV, remember this is from the owners of 2 alpha mare's from heck.
Katy

[LMH]

Very good points Katy-maybe his mood is actually him just having the energy to 'defend his turf'

The vet is coming out tomorrow to check him out from end to end and make sure i am not missing something else, evaluate his dosage, etc.

[meaty ogre]

Chaste tree berry worked well for my ancient mini initially, but only temporarily. I used it 3 weeks on and then 1 off because it does work on the dopamine levels, which will self-adjust. In alzheimer's patients that were tested w/CTB the protocol was 3 weeks on/1 off for that reason, so I just went with that. I couldn't find any equine studies re: tolerance effects. So you may need to tinker there as far as doseage, as well as length of period both on and off the CTB. After several months the CTB lost efficacy, and I do plan to try it again in early spring when it is time to shed out.

I use fenugreek for a few reasons. It has insulin-protective and glucose-lowering properties and is a good source of lysine. It also has been shown to reduce bad cholesterol. These studies are all human, not equine, so take it for what it's worth there.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3286242
http://grande.nal.usda.gov/ibids/index.php?mode2=detail&origin=ibids_references&therow=422180
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/22087/abstract

I also give all of mine vitus vinifera or grapeseed extract. It is the most powerful antioxidant known to man (much more potent than E or C, and has synergistic effects on both), and oxidative stress and damage are implicated in a lot of diseases, as well as just plain old aging. It has been documented to increase insulin sensitivity, as well as inhibit lipases which digest fat, both of which have obvious benefits for metabolic horses.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/106563979/abstract
http://www.nutritionjrnl.com/article/S0899-9007(03)00167-9/abstract
http://www.springerlink.com/content/v3339x5714540937/
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0899900703001679

All of mine are out of grass 24/7, including the 38 year old mini. I have 2 24 year olds and an 18 year old. I had the mini tested (dex suppresion) and she was fine, well within normal parameters. I do credit the fenugreek and the GSE with supporting their metabolic processes so that they can stay on grass 24/7, eat grain products, etc. I know from reading your posts that you are carefully managing everything that can be managed, and I agree with Katy that you may have to deal with some unwanted side effects from pergolide, but I think both would be worth a try because of the above, and they both have very low toxicity and are cheap. I get mine from herbalcom.com.

[LMH]

thank you meatyogre! That is the kind of extras I was looking for.

How much of each do you give (the fenugreek and GSE)?

[meaty ogre]

Unfortunately, I am very inexact with my measurements. :-) I had been scooping it out by the handful (or semi-handful for the mini) but have since recycled old scoops from other supplements. I can't recall the exact size of them though.

I'd estimate 4-5 heaping tablespoons of the fenugreek for the foster rescue (who gets the most) down to 1-2 tablespoons for the mini, and about the same for the grapeseed. They get it once a day in their mash. The paint gets a little more GSE during the summer to prevent sunburn (yes, it can do that too:
http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Aktion=ShowAbstract&ArtikelNr=64534&Ausgabe=228554&ProduktNr=224194
When Mr. MO feeds, they may not get it at all or may get significantly less. :-) Helpful as testicles on a mule, I know.

[marta]

magnesium, vitamin E and salt w/ iodine are important.
i tend to doubt effectiveness of chastaberry in conjunction w/ pergolide. in my opinion if you have to use pergolide, then chastaberry apparently wasn't enough and now whatever benefits you think you're seeing from chastaberry are really from pergolide.

[draftdriver]

i tend to doubt effectiveness of chastaberry in conjunction w/ pergolide. in my opinion if you have to use pergolide, then chastaberry apparently wasn't enough and now whatever benefits you think you're seeing from chastaberry are really from pergolide.


Interesting. My mare has been on pergolide for nearly 2 years, with little effect. When I added the Chasteberry, I saw definite improvement -- decrease -- in her weight (she's an air fern).

[BornToRide]

What about jiaogulan? Has anyone used it successfully too?

[marta]

Interesting. My mare has been on pergolide for nearly 2 years, with little effect. When I added the Chasteberry, I saw definite improvement -- decrease -- in her weight (she's an air fern).

interesting.
did you take her off the pergolide to see if you can sustain her just on chastaberry?

[Gunnar]

I have an 18 year old Hannoverian who is now on Pergolide. he has been metabolic for at least 6 years but just this year did he finally test positive. He has a huge hair coat etc. Before his positive test I had him on liquid chaste berry but I am not sure it did much good. Now that he is full blown I just have him on Pergolide, 1.5 mg per day. His coat seems less thick and his enery level is higher. Of course it is colder so his energy level would be higher! He was pretty darn dull before that and did not seem to care about picking up his feet, resulting in two trip falls. Now with a new shoe schedule etc and the Pergolide is much more vibrant! :eek:

University of PA has a study on the use of Vitex agnus castus Extract in horses who have Cushings or are Cushingnoid.

[http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/aaep/2002/910102000175.PDF
The study reveals in some horses that the herb did not help and it fact it caused clinical signs to worsen.

Just more food for thought! :)

[Melyni]

I use ALC, plus some other amino-acids, and I use Jiagulan.

Grapeseed extract is rumored to be helpful I have not tried that yet.
Mine do great on Balance EQ, which has the ALC, Jiag and other AAs in it. So I don't feel the need to add more.
MW

[LMH]

Ah! I have been meaning to try the Balance EQ-just ordered it!

[Melyni]

Ah! I have been meaning to try the Balance EQ-just ordered it!

It's on sale right now, 20% off, so good timing!
MW

[draftdriver]

interesting.
did you take her off the pergolide to see if you can sustain her just on chastaberry?

No, I haven't tried that. I'll consult with the vet first. I'm a little reluctant to rock the boat as far as my mare's treatment regime goes, because she's just had the best summer in years. (Knock on wood).

[Houdini1220]

I am pretty sure my horse has cushings....(I am in the process of having him tested but all signs point to yes). I am very interested in doing as much as I can with nutrition. Medication if necessary of course. I was actually just looking at the Foxden site AGAIN as I was already thinking of switching my horse over to LinPro.