Hoof Problems With Pictures

[Juneberry]

I'm posting this for a friend of mine. I want to see the COTH'ers opinion of these feet.

A little back story. this is not my friends horse. This horse was purchased as a lesson horse. She proved to be a bit difficult for the kids to work with so my friend started using her for her lessons and pretty much overseeing her care. There is nothing else really wrong with this mare other than her feet, in fact before this crack happened and while she was being well taken care of by my friend she was ready to start novice event and was jumping 2.6 nicely.

My friend put an $800 down payment on her before leaving to go back to school on the west coast. to keep someone from snagging this mare that she was having a great time with. Owner wanted $3500. Unfortunately when my friend came back to go to school the mare sat in the pasture.

My friend isn't sure what to do. She is back to see her over the holidays and got pictures of the crack. She is trying to decide whether to buy her (hopefully at discount considering the work needed to rehab the feet) and stable her at her friends where she can be sure she gets the farrier work she needs while she is back on the west coast. maybe pull her shoes and use a barefoot trimmer. Or wait until she is back home in the summer and care for her then (when she would rather be riding her.)

The mare is sound currently but I believe it is because she is under slung and no longer putting any pressure on the toe/crack in front. She is having the farrier out on Friday. I suggested she has the farrier remove a lot of the wall in the front (most of it isn't doing her much good anymore anyway) I'm not saying remove any more than necessary but I think it is imperative that the hoof wall in front not be allowed to make contact with the shoe or ground until this crack is healed.

She and I both welcome any advice you can give. Please don't attack the care or lack of care that caused this problem because of her distance across the country it is of course impossible to oversee perfect care for this mare (that isn't 100% hers). What she really needs is constructive advice and things to speak to her farrier about. Also she will be using a different farrier from the one who left her heals so under slung so we don't need 30+ posts saying she needs to fire her farrier.

Front Feet From the Front (http://picasaweb.google.com/teresaahuffman/Feet#5280513628090830626)
Front Feet From the Side (http://picasaweb.google.com/teresaahuffman/Feet#5280513640026939106)
Front Right Hoof Crack Detail (http://picasaweb.google.com/teresaahuffman/Feet#5280513603923743026)
Left Front Hoof (http://picasaweb.google.com/teresaahuffman/Feet#5280513632652247026) crack here as well

[jaimebaker]

Is she currently in shoes??? If she were mine, here is what I would do. Please note, all of my horses are barefoot but if one needed shoes I wouldn't hesitate to shoe them (in other words, I'm not against shoes). I would get shoes off of her and roll the heck out of those toes. Get the weight off the wall on that crack. Did she have an injury or anything at the coronet band where that crack starts? If not, I'd be looking closely at the diet as to why good growth isn't coming from the coronet band. I would get her on a good hoof supplement to get some extra growth. KEEP the toe rolled. I'm talking have the farrier out every 4 weeks at minimum if there's nobody that can keep that toe rolled about once a week.


Now then, I'm not a farrier. I'm just a horse owner who has dealt with my share of cracks. Nothing that extensive but still some scary cracks. Staying on top of it is what helped mine and a good hoof supplement. Good luck!

[JHUshoer20]

Ok,
Worse of the 2 needs some repair work done. Is not really that big a deal. If I were doing it I'd lace it with nails and on both feet burn a crescent shaped slit at the top of the cracks.

Although you might be able to get by without shoes I wouldn't. I'd shoe this one with a pair of bar shoes with clips drawn on both sides of the cracks to help stabilize it. The whole key here is to keep after this aggressively on a short schedule.

Any competent horseshoer should be able to deal with it in a variety of ways. Some guys like this kind of work more than others so if you can find one who enjoys it go with him:)

Not so bad, good luck.
George

[BornToRide]

Sounds to me like this problem has been going on for a while despite shoes and side clips. I would take this mare out of shoes, trim her balanced to the internal hoofstructures and allow this crack to grow out. Here is a similar example plus additional info you might find helpful:
http://www.hoofrehab.com/wallcracks.htm
I also don't like the stress lines she's growing out and the excessive toe flaring. That's usually a sign that the diet is too high in sugars and starches for what the horse can tolerate. I would also ensure that she's on a low NSC diet and gets enough copper and zinc for healthy hoof growth - more info here: http://www.hoofrehab.com/diet.htm

[enjoytheride]

With small cracks my farrier will leave the horse barefoot and cut a triangle shape in the crack every trim to keep it from getting worse.
He did rehab work on a horse that had hoof removed for surgery, looked much like this only it was man made.

The horse wore shoes and the crack was filled in with equithane and he was trimmed very 5 weeks. Luckily he didn't have to use a brace on the crack. This horse was on stall rest for a month to limit movement and stress on the foot. After it was under control my farrier pulled the shoes and trimmed every 3 weeks. It was expensive and took 6 - 8 months before the trim appointments were cut back and over a year before it grew out. Horse ended up sound though.

[irishcas]

Ok,
Worse of the 2 needs some repair work done. Is not really that big a deal. If I were doing it I'd lace it with nails and on both feet burn a crescent shaped slit at the top of the cracks.

Although you might be able to get by without shoes I wouldn't. I'd shoe this one with a pair of bar shoes with clips drawn on both sides of the cracks to help stabilize it. The whole key here is to keep after this aggressively on a short schedule.

Any competent horseshoer should be able to deal with it in a variety of ways. Some guys like this kind of work more than others so if you can find one who enjoys it go with him:)

Not so bad, good luck.
George


George,

I'm assuming this works for you? Do you have any photos from first visit to photos of a crack that is gone?

I would like to know how burning a crescent into the external wall would stop the crack ;)

How about resecting lightly and then removing pressure off the bottom of the foot in that area and then casting the foot for 3 or 4 cycles?

I guess a shoe would do the same thing? Thoughts?

OP: I don't mean to sound bitchy, but better pictures of CLEAN feet would be way more helpful :) Putting the feet on a flat dry surface would allow all of us who want to give opinions have a better look. I'd also like some sole shots if you can.

Thanks

[Peter026]

The toe crack looks as if it started from an abscess breaking out of the coronary band. The way I would remedy this, is to debride the crack of all necrotic horn and fill with an anti-bacterial hoof composite.

Balance the foot and shoe with quarter clips.

Cutting a half circle or triangle above a crack will not stop the crack from migrating.

[JHUshoer20]

George,

I'm assuming this works for you? Do you have any photos from first visit to photos of a crack that is gone? No. Haven't done one like that since 1980something. Usually horses are presented to us like this as new customers or having just trucked in from someplace.

I would like to know how burning a crescent into the external wall would stop the crack ;) Pretty elementary. Works sort of like leather. A slit or cut in leather is stopped by a round hole. On a hoof it works the same. Burn either a round or semi-circular slit at the top it will stop the crack. DO NOT cross rasp it! That weakens it further and is 1st sign of an amateur. I burn them most of the way through the wall. When you feel resistance begin to lessen then stop.

At the racetrack we couldn't use fires in the barns so burning wasn't an option. What we did there was carried a t-handled tap in our toolboxes with a drill bit in it. If we got one with bad cracks we just drilled the hole instead of burning but either method will work.

How about resecting lightly and then removing pressure off the bottom of the foot in that area and then casting the foot for 3 or 4 cycles? Yeah that would probably work too. More than one way to skin a cat. Stuff I described has worked for me so I know it works. With the modern stuff they have now I'm not sure how many guys lace them with nails anymore.:winkgrin:

I guess a shoe would do the same thing? Thoughts? Yeah, in this case you're trying to stabilize it any way you can. Important thing to remember about a toe crack is they close when weight is on them vis a vis a quarter crack which opens upon loading. Keep that in mind when fixing one.
George

[JHUshoer20]

George,

I'm assuming this works for you? Do you have any photos from first visit to photos of a crack that is gone?
You might find this vid more interesting. Granted is not a toe crack but back where it is in the heel is I think a much harder fix. Ian McKinlay shows how to stabilize one with wires. This works great for him too. Check it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx5gU1K7KtQ

George

[Rick Burten]

How about resecting lightly and then removing pressure off the bottom of the foot in that area and then casting the foot for 3 or 4 cycles?

Problem is that the casting will cover up a lot of the crack. This is not a desirable situation unless debridement has been done and a drain established under the cast. Otherwise you run the risk of further anaerobic infection under the casting material.

I guess a shoe would do the same thing? Thoughts?

I would take that foot back and down as much as I thought I could, including resecting that crack until I found healthy margins. I might well choose to use either a full heart bar shoe or an open toe heart bar shoe . I'd add EquiPak or the like to the package too. And instead of trying to lace that crack, at least in the beginning, I'd screw a hose band clamp to the wall and adjust the tightness as necessary. Some would opt for the addition of a Nolan Hoof Plate whether the horse were barefoot or shod. I like the flexibility a band clamp gives me.

[Juneberry]

Is she currently in shoes???

Yes she is shod at the moment

I would get shoes off of her and roll the heck out of those toes. Get the weight off the wall on that crack.

This is exactly what I recommended to her, if she was able to upkeep the feet herself however, because she leaves for the west coast at the end of the month to go back to school she won't be able to upkeep her feet herself. That is why I was thinking the hoof wall needed to be maintained by a farrier every 4 weeks'ish and removed back far enough that the wall would never come in contact with the shoe, or ground to cause that flare to get worse

Did she have an injury or anything at the coronet band where that crack starts?

we have no idea if she had an injury, she was just put out to pasture because she is a more advanced ride and we have no idea how long she had it before it was noticed

If not, I'd be looking closely at the diet as to why good growth isn't coming from the coronet band.

She was just getting hay, so we've talked about getting her supplements, unfortunately the barn where she is kept has some 100+ lesson horses and no time for the ones that aren't in the program. so it might be difficult to make sure she is getting those supplements. She was also a bit overweight at the end of summer which is probably contributing to the hoof problems.

Ok, Worse of the 2 needs some repair work done. Is not really that big a deal. If I were doing it I'd lace it with nails and on both feet burn a crescent shaped slit at the top of the cracks.

I understand the theory behind the slit at the top of the cracks, much like how they had to repair the liberty bell. they tried to repair the crack and it kept getting worse so they finally actually caused a full separation at the top of the crack and it is stable now. I'm not sure how well that would work with fibrous material rather than steel

Although you might be able to get by without shoes I wouldn't. I'd shoe this one with a pair of bar shoes with clips drawn on both sides of the cracks to help stabilize it. The whole key here is to keep after this aggressively on a short schedule.

I've always been cautious of trying to secure the hoof with shoes. I always wonder about the natural expansion and contraction of the hoof on a, in this case draft cross mare who is approximately 1400 pounds. Is there any shoe that will truly hold that much weight coming down on the hooves will the efforts to control the hoof wall just result in a further damaged hoof because the shoe can't keep up with the contraction and expansion of the hoof?

Sounds to me like this problem has been going on for a while despite shoes and side clips.

I believe they have had problems keeping shoes on her since she got there

I would take this mare out of shoes, trim her balanced to the internal hoofstructures and allow this crack to grow out. Here is a similar example plus additional info you might find helpful:
http://www.hoofrehab.com/wallcracks.htm

Thank you for the link I'll read up and forward it on.

I also don't like the stress lines she's growing out and the excessive toe flaring. That's usually a sign that the diet is too high in sugars and starches for what the horse can tolerate. I would also ensure that she's on a low NSC diet and gets enough copper and zinc for healthy hoof growth - more info here: http://www.hoofrehab.com/diet.htm

Thanks again for a good link. I agree with the sugars. again unfortunately it's not really something she can monitor until the mare is under her full care. but I believe this mare is at pretty serious risk for founder when the grass starts getting rich again.


OP: I don't mean to sound bitchy, but better pictures of CLEAN feet would be way more helpful :) Putting the feet on a flat dry surface would allow all of us who want to give opinions have a better look. I'd also like some sole shots if you can. Thanks

No worries I live on the west coast so I was not able to be there to see the feet first hand, (otherwise I'd be taking care of them for her :))I just had her take some pictures and that's what I've put here. yes it would be wonderful to see her on a flat surface but unfortunately it's what you and I have to work with for now. I'll make sure to mention it for the next set of photos

[irishcas]

I would take that foot back and down as much as I thought I could, including resecting that crack until I found healthy margins. I might well choose to use either a full heart bar shoe or an open toe heart bar shoe .

What IS the purpose of a heartbar? Can you explain for me? And would it be a short term application?

Thanks Rick

[J.D.]

Classic case of Neglect. "Just Damn"!:mad:

[Tree]

Gawd, you weren't kidding about a hoof rehab.

I'd want x-rays of the feet to see what the coffin bones are like.

If it were my horse, I'd have a Farrier who is experienced in dealing with conditions this severe to start things off. My concern would be that the RF toe crack has either gone clean through the wall thickness or is on the verge. If pulling the shoes causes the foot to become too unstable then I would want a good balanced trim and shoes until the crack has had a chance to grow down before pulling the shoes completely. I'm afraid that pulling the shoes and leaving them off the RF would leave the horse too lame to weight it and if it did weight it, the lack of stability would prevent healing. If it won't weight the foot then you run the risk of over stressing the LF foot.

It's a real, REEEEAL shame the horse was allowed to get into this sorry shape. It's not worth what the owners want, as is. I hope they realize this and will see to reason and reconsider their selling price.

Not sure who to blame for this and that really doesn't matter now because what you see is what you have to deal with...the horse as is.

It looks like the RF has abscessed not too long ago as the cracks in the toe wall just below the hairline seem to indicate.

I wouldn't jump this horse until after it's had time to rehab fully.

Tree

[Rick Burten]

What IS the purpose of a heartbar? Can you explain for me? And would it be a short term application?

Thanks Rick

To re-distribute some of the load to the frog. The term of the application would be dependent on how the hoof was healing. I would not expect it to be a permanent application.

[JHUshoer20]

I understand the theory behind the slit at the top of the cracks, much like how they had to repair the liberty bell. they tried to repair the crack and it kept getting worse so they finally actually caused a full separation at the top of the crack and it is stable now. I'm not sure how well that would work with fibrous material rather than steel
Is not a theory. Is a proven way of doing things. Liberty Bell was a different story. Bell was poorly cast and improperly made. Various things were tried out of desparation but none worked. X-Rays show a fracture line completely across the bell literally cutting it in half. Is irreperable. Only alternative was to never ring or transport it.



I've always been cautious of trying to secure the hoof with shoes. I always wonder about the natural expansion and contraction of the hoof on a, in this case draft cross mare who is approximately 1400 pounds. Is there any shoe that will truly hold that much weight coming down on the hooves will the efforts to control the hoof wall just result in a further damaged hoof because the shoe can't keep up with the contraction and expansion of the hoof? Is no problem. There are situations when a shoe is made to minimize and/or stop expansion and contraction. This is one of those situations. Properly applied it will help tremendously.
George

[irishcas]

Is not a theory. Is a proven way of doing things. Liberty Bell was a different story. Bell was poorly cast and improperly made. Various things were tried out of desparation but none worked. X-Rays show a fracture line completely across the bell literally cutting it in half. Is irreperable. Only alternative was to never ring or transport it.


Are you a Historian, love the gems you come out with :D

Regards,

[JHUshoer20]

Are you a Historian, love the gems you come out with :D

Regards,Shhhhhhhhhh don't tell anybody but I have a degree in it
George

[crazypaintrider]

I am Juneberry's friend who knows the horse in question.

The horse just had her feet done on Friday, and I haven't had time to take new pictures yet, but I will do so and I will make sure her feet are clean and on a dry mud free surface. (sorry about that, I took those just so she could see what was going on.)

The horse isn't ridden much besides by me, and was barely ridden at all before I came home from school this previous summer. She did sit in a pasture and eat, eat and eat some more.

I would love to try barefoot with her, but her soles are so flat that it would probably make things worse. (Although I am not sure) I try to make sure her feet get done on time, although it is long long distance and she isn't top priority, and is usually the first to get bumped from the list if there are too many horses.

I talked with her current farrier. His suggestion is to find a vet that has dealt with cracks of this nature. He, with the vet's help would grind around the crack to expose it, then use nails to lace it up and patch it.

The horse is not going to be doing much work while I am gone, and unless her owner accepts my offer on her, there is not much I can do while I am away at school. Either way, I want to put her on a hoof supplement, either Grand Hoof or a local hoof supplement (made by the Mill of Bel Air if anyone knows where that is).

I would love to find a farrier who has experience dealing with cracks to work on her feet. Anyone know of someone in the central MD area?

[BornToRide]

I would love to try barefoot with her, but her soles are so flat that it would probably make things worse. (Although I am not sure) I try to make sure her feet get done on time, although it is long long distance and she isn't top priority, and is usually the first to get bumped from the list if there are too many horses.

Flat soles are often a sign that the horse is affected by too many starches and sugars in the diet (makes the laminae connection weaker) Peripheral hoofwall loading from a show often makes it worse and allows for the internal structures to come down more, hence the losss of concavity. A diet change would show you if that's the case and boots can help the horse through the transition.

[Auventera Two]

I'd opt for a nolan hoof plate, or equicast, keeping a good drainage tract open.

And for the love of christ - do NOT work this horse until these feet are 100% healed!

[crazypaintrider]

Flat soles are often a sign that the horse is affected by too many starches and sugars in the diet (makes the laminae connection weaker) Peripheral hoofwall loading from a show often makes it worse and allows for the internal structures to come down more, hence the losss of concavity. A diet change would show you if that's the case and boots can help the horse through the transition.

What should I change in her diet? I want to start her on a hoof supplement. She is currently on a round bale with no grain at all.

[BornToRide]

What exactly does she get besides the hay?

[crazypaintrider]

Just hay. I haven't had time to purchase a hoof supplement.

Hay in the winter, grass in the summer. That has been her diet. She was overweight and still isn't at an ideal weight yet.

[crazypaintrider]

The original pictures were take right when I returned home. Her feet hadn't seen a farrier since Oct. 3rd. She was supposed to be done on Nov. 21st, but wasn't for some reason beyond my control.
She was done on Friday.

Left Front, side view (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7346306@N07/3131629110/) Left Front, front view (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7346306@N07/3130798925/) Left Front, bottom (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7346306@N07/3130800389/) a little better view of the quarter crack (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7346306@N07/3130800097/)

Right Front, side view (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7346306@N07/3131629242/) Right Front, front view (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7346306@N07/3131629332/) Bottom (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7346306@N07/3131629666/) Mid October she abscessed out of the crack.

Left Hind, Front (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7346306@N07/3131628834/) Bottom (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7346306@N07/3130800211/)
Right Hind, Front (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7346306@N07/3131628916/) Bottom (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7346306@N07/3131629498/)
Side view, hinds (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7346306@N07/3130799103/)

Her feet were still drying when I took the photos.
[

[Rick Burten]

So, this trim and shoeing is >6 days old?

If that is the case, then you need to find a farrier with more understanding of hoof mechanics, bio-mechanics, physics and other aspects of how to treat feet like this. And, why. YMMV.

[J.D.]

So, this trim and shoeing is >6 days old?

If that is the case, then you need to find a farrier with more understanding of hoof mechanics, bio-mechanics, physics and other aspects of how to treat feet like this. And, why. YMMV.

And, Why aluminum shoes?

[rcloisonne]

"Farrier" (and I use the word facetiously) work like this is what gives the BUA's their ammo. :no:

You need a new hoof care provider, OP. ASAP.

[Tree]

"Farrier" (and I use the word facetiously) work like this is what gives the BUA's their ammo. :no:

You need a new hoof care provider, OP. ASAP.

Maybe it's "ammo" online but another client, offline. ;)

Tree

[Juneberry]

So, this trim and shoeing is >6 days old?

If that is the case, then you need to find a farrier with more understanding of hoof mechanics, bio-mechanics, physics and other aspects of how to treat feet like this. And, why. YMMV.

Actually the pictures I believe are right after new shoes. and I agree if that is the case then she disparately needs a new farrier.

[BornToRide]

Even though she's only getting hay and grass, you may have an IR horse, especially since she has a hard time dropping weight too.

Her hooves also show me possible IR warning signs, like regular ripples growing down the hoof wall, toe flaring, the excessive cracking (although some of it is probably trim related) ect. If the first 1/2 to 3/4 inch growth under the coronet band is steeper and the the dorsal hoofwall flares away, she's most likely affected by what she's eating. Fortunately she has great looking frogs. :)

Grasses and hays can be too high in sugars for some horses. You won't know unless you test it. Perhaps soak her hay for a while. 1/2 hour in warm water, 1 hour in cold.See the Yahoo Equine Cushings group for more info on IR.

I would also treat her hooves with White Lightning or Clean Trax. Sometimes excessive cracking can be a sign that the hoofwall is already invaded by fungus and/or bacteria an needs to be addressed.

[creseida]

I would also seek out a new farrier. Her feet aren't balanced at all. Her heels look awful.

And for the barefoot segment, just like there are good farriers and not-so-good farriers, there are plenty of barefoot butchers out there, too. This isn't a matter of barefoot vs shod; it's just a poor quality job, period.

[BornToRide]

Yes, however, in defense of farriers, shoes can exacerbate the problems as seen in the photos! Shoes tend to make hooves run forward, if the hooves have that tendency already!

[Tree]

Yes, however, in defense of farriers, shoes can exacerbate the problems as seen in the photos! Shoes tend to make hooves run forward, if the hooves have that tendency already!

Yes, a bad trim isn't going to be any better after a shoe is applied to it.

This didn't appear to be a bf vs shoes thread anyway. ;) Someone only mentioned how bad shoeing was ammo for bf'ers when really, bad work is what it is, bare or shod. And then the other thing to consider is how long it had been since shoes were applied or a trim was done. It's better to get an idea of workmanship at the time it is done rather than weeks or months later...well, in some cases. With shod feet that can't wear naturally, leaving shoes on too long will result in over growth (providing the feet are growing at a good rate) and with trims, you can't always determine how long it's been since a trim if the hooves are wearing well and maintaining their shape.

Tree

[matryoshka]

If the farriers who post here are telling you to get a better farrier, then do so. That shoeing job is likely to exacerbate the problem. Unless my eyes deceive me, the shoe is not supporting the heel, which was left too far forward. That's only going to make matters worse for the horse.

[BornToRide]

If the farriers who post here are telling you to get a better farrier, then do so. That shoeing job is likely to exacerbate the problem. Unless my eyes deceive me, the shoe is not supporting the heel, which was left too far forward. That's only going to make matters worse for the horse.
It is deceiving because the hoof is running foprward so much. The heels ends too much forward of where they should end, about 1/4 inch back :yes:

[Rick Burten]

Shoes tend to make hooves run forward, if the hooves have that tendency already!

Say what????? Just how, in you mind, does this phenomenon occur?

[Rick Burten]

And, Why aluminum shoes?
So the toe of the shoe will wear back and facilitate turn over?? Because the attending farrier thinks aluminum will reduce torque and traction? Because we get paid more for aluminum shoes, especially clipped aluminum shoes? Only The Shadow knows............

[JHUshoer20]

Say what????? Just how, in you mind, does this phenomenon occur?
Bet it's a dietary issue Rick.

Probably lack of magnesium and selisium or something of that nature:rolleyes:
George

[Peter026]

Bet it's a dietary issue Rick.

Probably lack of magnesium and selisium or something of that nature:rolleyes:
George

Yep NSC's

[BornToRide]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHUshoer20 http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3752236#post3752236)
Bet it's a dietary issue Rick.

Probably lack of magnesium and selisium or something of that nature:rolleyes:
George

Yep NSC's
I am rather suprised about the lack of up to date diet knowledge and how that affects hoof health when it comes to some hoofcare professionals, usually farriers. Should you not be more up to date with that to provide the most comprehensive care to your client's horses rather than talking down to people who do??!!:confused: Again, this neither makes you look good, nor does this raise your credibility!

[JHUshoer20]

I am rather suprised about the lack of up to date diet knowledge and how that affects hoof health when it comes to some hoofcare professionals, usually farriers. Should you not be more up to date with that to provide the most comprehensive care to your client's horses rather than talking down to people who do??!!:confused: Again, this neither makes you look good, nor does this raise your credibility!
Your obtuseness is noted. Perhaps you didn't realize that my tongue in cheek statement was directed toward you.

Your coming on here day after day after day blaming everything on diet makes a big target. Tell me do you have a diet that cures the clap too? Probably the secret JackieO UFO diet that was revealed to you by the Elvis clone right?

For someone with zero credibility about anything I wouldn't cast stones in that direction either if I were you.

Aside of that you and everyone else have a nice Christmas:)
George

[J.D.]

Your obtuseness is noted. Perhaps you didn't realize that my tongue in cheek statement was directed toward you.

Your coming on here day after day after day blaming everything on diet makes a big target. Tell me do you have a diet that cures the clap too? Probably the secret JackieO UFO diet that was revealed to you by the Elvis clone right?

For someone with zero credibility about anything I wouldn't cast stones in that direction either if I were you.

Aside of that you and everyone else have a nice Christmas:)
George


Thought that diet cured all ills?

Guess I need to change my diet of Doritos & Spinach Dip to Equine Senior & Flax Muffins! Merry Christmas George!!:yes::yes::eek::winkgrin:

[JHUshoer20]

Thought that diet cured all ills?

Guess I need to change my diet of Doritos & Spinach Dip to Equine Senior & Flax Muffins! Merry Christmas George!!:yes::yes::eek::winkgrin:
Same to you Jaye:D

[irishcas]

Tell me do you have a diet that cures the clap too?

Hey I knew a Merchant Marine who said, you just put pee on it :) :rolleyes: Men!!!

Merry Christmas to you too baby

[JHUshoer20]

You too Kimmy:)

[crazypaintrider]

So the general consensus seems to be that I need a new farrier, (which I totally agree) along with diet changes.

I am waiting for her owner to get back to me on my offer.

[LMH]

I don't understand all the debates.

Isn't the truth almost always somewhere in the middle?:confused:

From my limited experience, there seems to be 4 areas that can help or hinder healthy hooves and healthy horses (or again, lack thereof):

1.proper hoofcare-if you have to hang your hat on a generalization (and only useful for arguments sake, being a generalization and. All disclaimers apply, your mileage may differ, anyway I digress)....what *I* have found is that toes and flares seem to be a big make or break part of the foot. If toes run forward, heels gladly follow along. Let flares keep on flaring and new growth is happy to chase the tail of old growth. Certainly you need heels here and bars there...but honestly when I really got control of toes and flares, things really clean up with the rest of the foot.


Call me simple but it seems toes get that breakover right and fighting flare keeps a neat compact package. If either of those are left without detailed attention, it seems almost impossible to fix anything else.

So take this to most photos that cause all of these horrified looks and panics-most of them have toes just flat in the wrong place.

A long toe will DEFINITELY keep a horse from gaining 'concavity' or depth to the foot. I have one horse that has been 'flat footed' for years-his toes was just the smallest bit still ahead of the game. Once it got back in order he has suddenly developed 'depth' to his foot (and thicker soles fwiw).

2. nutrition-it really is a bigger player than many people give credit. Incorrect mineral balance and high sugars can create a hell environment to get things right in the trim-you trim and things look good. Along comes the dessert tray and it all goes to hell again.

Interestingly enough i know of horses with rock solid trims-professionals that are VERY VERY detailed on those toes and flares and suddenly the diet moves down a notch on the insult factor. A strong hoof just seems to handle dietary insults better than a weaker one-even one that looks good needs to be great in order to be 'flexible' in the diet.

3. environment-again a player but it seems to all weave in with the rest. I read about people treating horses for fungus for months on end-those same feet also have toes out to Kansas. Get the toes back and the foot tight and compact and suddenly that mudddy pasture is not so insulting.

4. Movement/training. If dobbin is allowed to travel crooked and on his forehand you can also feel like you never get a good foot under him-correct pressure creates a correct foot-incorrect pressure creates a poor hoof. So again, as a trimmer or farrier if you are trimming your best and the foot keeps running forward it may be worth an hour to see how Princess rides Dobbin. Those hours of traveling downhill could be undermining your good work.

My point being-ALL of the factors need attention. If you have all 4 in place you have a solid foundation. If one is missing the rest have to be excellent. They have to carry the load for the missing link. If 2 are missing, well...chances are there are going to be ongoing overall healthcare battles.

SO I just don't feel you can ever hang your hat on just one-they all relate too much and can't be addressed or assessed independently.

So in a way, whoever says the trim is right or the diet is also right-just maybe not complete in the evaluation. It takes all 4....and actually more if you want to add in saddle fit and 'body evaluation' like muscle tightness etc.

To create a solid athlete takes a team of people that openly communicate and work together-each with at least a surface understanding of ALL elements so they know when one area is 'off' enough that the professional of THAT area needs to give more attention. For example if a farrier knows a horse is eating 10lbs of sweet feed, he may not be a nutritionist but should know enough to suggest a diet assessment-and maybe even have a relationship with a professional he can recommend. Similarly a nutritionist needs to know enough about correct movement that if a horse is presented that constantly leans left, she should be able to recognize it and suggest the training get a second look. And so on.

Every once in a while a client or owner hits gold and finds someone with enough knowledge in many areas to create a solid foundation-even then knowing when a more experienced team needs to step in.

Just something to think about that makes sense to me.

[crazypaintrider]

So, this trim and shoeing is >6 days old?



Yeah. It is a week old today, those pictures were taken 2-3 days after it was done....

[Dune]

Yeah. It is a week old today, those pictures were taken 2-3 days after it was done....


Horrible, find another shoer....please. :dead::yes:

[Rick Burten]

I don't understand all the debates.

But you still participate, right? :) Perhaps its all just a part of human nature. Hmmm, would that be considered 'natural'? What are the protocols for dealing with it 'naturally'?

Isn't the truth almost always somewhere in the middle?:confused:

Whaaaat? An attorney that admits to confusion :eek: However, in answer to the question posed, my reply is, yep, you guessed it, "It Depends" :D

Just something to think about that makes sense to me.

Legally speaking counselor, would that summation be sufficient to sway a jury? :)

[LMH]

But you still participate, right? :)

[SOME one has to be the BS-ometer. I decided that would be me;)]


Perhaps its all just a part of human nature. Hmmm, would that be considered 'natural'? What are the protocols for dealing with it 'naturally'?

[Natural schmatural. I gave my horse bute, remember? I lost my natural card this week already.:winkgrin:]



Whaaaat? An attorney that admits to confusion :eek:

[Merry Christmas! A little belated gift :P]

However, in answer to the question posed, my reply is, yep, you guessed it, "It Depends" :D

[So we agree...a late gift for the mods of the forum!]



Legally speaking counselor, would that summation be sufficient to sway a jury? :)

Oh heck I am trying out a new approach-attempting to be soft spoken and unoffensive! :uhoh:

hehehehehe

[Rick Burten]

Oh heck I am trying out a new approach-attempting to be soft spoken and unoffensive! :uhoh:


Aha! So its the old "bees to honey" ploy. :)

By the way counselor, you do of course know why pit bulls don't bite lawyers don't you? ;)

[LMH]

Something about not feeding on their own? hehehe

[Rick Burten]

Professional courtesy. :D

[J.D.]

Oh heck I am trying out a new approach-attempting to be soft spoken and unoffensive! :uhoh:

hehehehehe

WWHHHHHHAAAAAATTTTT???????????:eek::eek::confused: :confused:

[LMH]

WWHHHHHHAAAAAATTTTT???????????:eek::eek::confused: :confused:

Are you saying the new me is not working?:lol: JD are you missing the loudmouthed BUA soapboxer!! :winkgrin:

[crazypaintrider]

Thank you to everyone who gave their input. But I did not purchase this horse. Hopefully I can pass on some of the suggestions to her owner for consideration.

[Juneberry]

lol the thread certainly got headed in an odd direction a couple times but for the most part thanks everyone for you input. CrazyPaintrider had high hopes in getting this mare. and I'm sorry it wasn't an option at this time. now we just need to cross our fingers that she finds a home where they can take good care of her feet and get lots of love.